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#openttd IRC Logs for 2012-02-29

---Logopened Wed Feb 29 00:00:25 2012
00:01<xiong>Mazur, would you be interested in a new FIRS cargo chart?
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02:29<andythenorth>mofing
02:33<@peter1138>how rude
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02:46*andythenorth is matching animals to where they live
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03:23*andythenorth wonders about writing a PIL routine to scale sprites
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03:24<andythenorth>it would need to detect edges
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03:30<andythenorth>hmm
03:31<andythenorth>the toddler has discovered train-rv crashes in the game
03:31<andythenorth>I need openttd for ipad, or I never get my laptop back :P
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03:34<andythenorth>hmm
03:34<andythenorth>why do I never use 64 tile trains in my games?
03:38<appe>http://www.explosm.net/db/files/Comics/lastmeal.png
03:39<appe>andythenorth: it sucks.
03:39<lugo>not for toddlers :)
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04:49<Pikka>andythenorth stop stirring at once
04:50<andythenorth>what did I do :)
04:50<Pikka>"You can always fork ;)"
04:50<Pikka>:P
04:50<andythenorth>forking seems to be the order of the day for that project
04:50<andythenorth>day / five years :P
04:51<Pikka>going on for ten, isn't it?
04:51<Pikka>the BR set predates newgrf... D;
04:52<andythenorth>we all know forks are bad ;)
04:52<andythenorth>except if you're a git user, which now seems to include world+dog
04:52<Pikka>you'll never eat your spaghetti with a spoon though
04:52<Pikka>hmm
04:53<Pikka>you should make a grf called SPAGHETTI
04:53<andythenorth>and why not
04:53<andythenorth>someone reverse-acronym it, I'll make it :P
04:53*andythenorth is going to take the toddler on his first train ride now
04:54<andythenorth>toodle, and pip
04:54<Pikka>somewhere exciting I hope
04:54<Pikka>seeya
04:54<andythenorth>exciting...hmmm: Avon Gorge, then some factories :o
04:54<andythenorth>anyway bbl
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05:14<AcidWeb>Hello.
05:15<AcidWeb>One fast question. There is any option that disable purchase of bankrupt companies in multiplayer?
05:15<AcidWeb>I found only one that disabled shares.
05:19<appe>hm, do i normally pay for the amount of stations i have on a map?
05:24<@planetmaker>iirc there's no such option, AcidWeb
05:25<AcidWeb>OK. Thank you.
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05:54<dihedral>greetings
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06:12<appe>bah, game time moves to fast
06:12<dihedral>Ammler: http://www.bitblokes.de/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/torvalds-laesst-luft-ab.jpeg
06:13<appe>jeez
06:13<appe>thats hard words from someone like that.
06:18<Ammler>dihedral: hehe, already read this: http://www.golem.de/news/linus-torvalds-linux-erfinder-schimpft-ueber-zu-viel-sicherheit-in-opensuse-1202-90130.html
06:19<Ammler>he is right, though you can take him serious anyway
06:26<Ammler>also not sure, if it is a security feature to keep away root pw from a local user
06:31<dihedral>i do that on every computer (root or administrator)
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06:35<Ammler>you do what?
06:35<dihedral>i do not hand out the root / administrator password
06:36<dihedral>why should i?
06:36<Ammler>yes, but not for security, just for support
06:37<Ammler>and in that case, it would be good, he couldn't connect to wlan
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06:38<Ammler>he, just changed my mind, linus is indeed wrong
06:38<dihedral>no, for security - i do not want them bitches fucking around with a running system if they do not know what they are doing
06:38<dihedral>installing / uninstalling software
06:38<dihedral>i do not care for installing printers, wlan, etc.
06:39<Ammler>and simply using a livedisk and resetting root pw isn't possible?
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06:40<dihedral>sure it is possible, but that then is intended harm
06:40<dihedral>and then i do not care :-P
06:40<Ammler>yes, so it is for security, it is that your guys don't fuck up your system and waste your time
06:40<Ammler>not*
06:40<dihedral>aye
06:40<dihedral>and it's security on servers where people do not have physical access to the system
06:41<Ammler>yes, I meant physical local users
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06:48<@planetmaker>depends on what you need an want
06:50<Ammler>it is advertising if linus rants about something :-)
06:52<Ammler>also last time I configured wlan, I was able to checkbox the connection, if it is user or system connection
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06:53<Ammler>but maybe it depends on the security policy template
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06:56<Ammler>dihedral: the best commentar is "I think that Apple makes a decent Unix distro that runs on the Macbook Air."
06:57<MNIM>hehehe
06:57<dihedral>well, Unix != Linux ;-)
06:58<Ammler>but it is quite nice, that suse seems to be the best distro to run there
06:58<MNIM>hmmmmh, I thought buntu ran on mac, too?
06:59<Ammler>run != run :-)
06:59<@planetmaker>but BSD != Unix :-P
07:02<appe>poop
07:02<@planetmaker>one could argue it, though
07:03<appe>argue poop?
07:03<appe>i admire the linguistic skills.
07:04<@peter1138>debian's the best distro. always. :p
07:05<@peter1138>only reason german-speaking people think suse is any good is cos it was made in germany ;p
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07:05<Sacro>Arch <3
07:13<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: so why is that not a valid reason then? :)
07:14<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: if it was made in britain, it would be like a fire extinguisher that catches fire :p
07:14<Ammler>hmm, there is for sure also blog around why linus doesn't like debian :-)
07:15<Eddi|zuHause>anyway, what this whole security crap needs is a decent GUI to set it up
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07:30<andythenorth>so if I've understood correctly, when setting min versions for a grf, I need to pay attention also to which nml version the grf is compiled with
07:30<andythenorth>which means a grf compiled on bundle server might fail for ottd xyz, even though it's fine when compiled locally
07:30<Ammler>nml default is v8
07:31<andythenorth>I mean nml version, not grf version
07:31<Ammler>you might use head, devzone uses nightlies, which sometimes is outdated :-)
07:31<andythenorth>more likely other way round in this case I think
07:31<@planetmaker>well, NML default branch currently aims to 1.2.0 - compatibility. Which recently means that requirement changed from 1.2.0-beta1 to 1.2.0-RC1
07:32<andythenorth>I compiled and tested with an outdated nml
07:32<andythenorth>then uploaded to bananas the grf from bundle server
07:32<@planetmaker>as the newgrf container 2 was newly introduced
07:32<andythenorth>yes this would make 100% sense for the issue I had
07:32<Ammler>planetmaker: not default, you speak about 0.2, don't you?
07:32<andythenorth>means we need FIRS 0.7.2 :|
07:32<@planetmaker>why does it mean that, andythenorth?
07:32<Ammler>ah
07:32<Ammler>nevermind :-)
07:32<@planetmaker>Just change the version requirement of the bananas entry
07:32<andythenorth>oh of course :)
07:33<@planetmaker>changing the grf is not needed
07:33<@planetmaker>and won't change anything
07:33<andythenorth>so only bananas min version needs to change, not action 14 props?
07:33<@planetmaker>basically testing for an earlier openttd version is kinda pointless: those simply don't read the grf
07:33<@planetmaker>yep
07:34<andythenorth>do we even have a14 for ottd version?
07:34<andythenorth>I don't see one
07:34<Ammler>why not set a14 too?
07:34<@planetmaker>and those earlier versions not reading the grf is basically what that guy experiences. Though I don#t understand his hesitation to update from a random beta to the RC1...
07:34<@planetmaker>there's no such a14
07:34<andythenorth>we have a check instead
07:34<@planetmaker>it would be an action7
07:34<andythenorth>in checks.pnml
07:35<@planetmaker>but you can't check older versions when using a new grfcontainer
07:35<andythenorth>hmm
07:35<@planetmaker>reading fails before that action is read
07:35<andythenorth>I need to understand a little better what the right thing to do is
07:35<andythenorth>so we have min version in the grf
07:35<andythenorth>and min version on bananas
07:35<@planetmaker>the right thing is to change the bananas entry openttd version
07:35<@planetmaker>no other actions
07:35<Ammler>but 1.1.5 should handle it, I thought
07:35<@planetmaker>Ammler: no: it will also just ignore the grf
07:35<@planetmaker>like also the early 1.2.0 betas
07:36<Ammler>I meant, with a proper error :-)
07:36<andythenorth>and this is purely dependent on which nml it was compiled with? nothing intrinsic to the grf?
07:36<@planetmaker>kinda, yes
07:36<@planetmaker>as the container was only recently added. To both openttd and nml
07:36<andythenorth>so the min version check in the grf itself - if no change is needed, is it redundant?
07:36<Ammler>if firs does build with nml 0.2, use that
07:36<andythenorth>can I tell bundles server to do that?
07:36<Ammler>yes
07:37<andythenorth>is it wise?
07:37<@planetmaker>andythenorth: no: that's the min version of FIRS itself it is compatible to. The min openttd version check meanwhile is kinda redundant, yes
07:37<Ammler>maybe not worth
07:37<@planetmaker>changing to nml 0.2.x for FIRS is not worth it
07:37<andythenorth>ok. so 1) establish min ottd version and change bananas
07:37<andythenorth>2) remove redundant version check?
07:37<@planetmaker>it's compatible to 1.2.0 anyway only and not to 1.1.x
07:38<@planetmaker>and I'd keep the version check. To be added later a fitting check ;-)
07:38<@planetmaker>will be needed again in the future. I'm sure
07:38*andythenorth thinks so too
07:38<andythenorth>does it need a note adding in comments?
07:38<Ammler>does bananas work in the meantime and is able to download older firs on older clients?
07:39<andythenorth>no idea
07:39<@planetmaker>might be worth, andythenorth, though... cba for me ;-)
07:39<@planetmaker>I keep the version check in OpenGFX for the same reason
07:39<andythenorth>seems it should at least be same version as bananas version?
07:39<@planetmaker>Ammler: not in the way you mean. nothing changed. no one worked on bananas
07:40<andythenorth>although I see why that makes no difference if the check is never executed :P
07:40<Ammler>andythenorth: you also need to change the md5sum check, afaik, but that might be worth to wait for makefile update
07:40<andythenorth>I leave changes in the grf for now, means I don't have to re-release
07:40<@planetmaker>Ammler: a grf has no md5sum check...
07:40<Ammler>however you call taht now
07:41<@planetmaker>the only place the md5sum (or the grfid) matters is within openttd.
07:41<@planetmaker>but if you upload the devzone bundle... all will be fine
07:41<@planetmaker>for the purpose of checking whether you and the devzone build the same: md5sum is still sufficient
07:41<Ammler>openttd calls it still MD5sum
07:42<Ammler>hmm, or does that matter, which container version?
07:42<andythenorth>so min version for bananas....? http://vcs.openttd.org/svn/changeset/23897/
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07:43<Ammler>planetmaker: http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/releases/0.7.1/firs-0.7.1.md5 <-- this does not match with openttd anymore
07:43<@planetmaker>true, Ammler
07:43<Ammler>so you have basically no version confirmation anymore
07:44<@planetmaker>as openttd probably shows you the grfid
07:44<Ammler>grfid -m
07:44<@planetmaker>yes
07:44<@planetmaker>though the point (for me) of that file is to check whether *I* build the same thing
07:44<@planetmaker>where it doesn't matter
07:44<andythenorth>+1
07:45<Ammler>for me it was to check, if I use the same file
07:45*andythenorth should have checked the md5s yesterday
07:45<andythenorth>they probably vary
07:45<andythenorth>usually I do actually check
07:45<Ammler>or to search a unknown grf
07:45<Ammler>andythenorth: as long as you use the same tool on both sides, it should still work
07:45<andythenorth>yeah the md5s vary
07:46<andythenorth>poop, and stronger words
07:46<Ammler>you just can't use openttd as long as we use md5sum
07:46<andythenorth>*usually* I check. yesterday I was rushing :(
07:46<@planetmaker>yes
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07:46<andythenorth>50 times I check, once I don't, the one time it varies :P
07:46<@planetmaker>I started to simply upload the devzone build ;-)
07:46<Ammler>andythenorth: I would bet, you have a M
07:46<andythenorth>no
07:46<Ammler>or you use the version where you tagged
07:46<andythenorth>I have a different nml
07:47<Ammler>that is often the issue someone does locally :-)
07:47<andythenorth>I hadn't accounted that upstream changes in the toolchain could do this ;)
07:47<Ammler>hg tag <tag>; hg up <tag>
07:47<Ammler>hg up <tag> is often forgotten
07:47<@planetmaker>changing NML often changes md5sum of the grf
07:47<andythenorth>I was behind the devzone
07:48<andythenorth>so I need to have exact same nml as devzone
07:48<andythenorth>otherwise this will occur again and again
07:48<Ammler>you see the version
07:48<@planetmaker>Snail_: did you btw, check what libpng-config --version give you wrt your grfcodec compilation issues?
07:48<andythenorth>can make bundle_zip curl the devzone version and compare with local?
07:48<Ammler>http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/releases/0.7.1/log/ <-- in PACKAGES or in the devzone log grep for nml
07:49<Snail_>planetmaker: let me check now
07:49<@planetmaker>but rubi is right: it works w/o issues for both andy and me on the same OS revision
07:49<Ammler>andythenorth: IRC does btw announce, if md5sum changes with new nml
07:49<@planetmaker>as such you have something special going on
07:49<Ammler>the rebuild.diff
07:50<andythenorth>Ammler: does it raise a ticket?
07:50<Snail_>planetmaker: running libpng-config gives me a list of options
07:50<andythenorth>I'm in irc a lot but not always....
07:50<Ammler>andythenorth: no, why should it
07:50<@planetmaker>libpng-config --version
07:51<Snail_>1.4.8
07:51<Ammler>the rebuild does not replace the older release, it does just check for differences
07:51<@planetmaker>but if it gives you a number of options that answers my question already
07:51<andythenorth>Ammler: because if the md5 sum changes, the grf has to be treated as failing integrity
07:51<andythenorth>compiled version is effectively untested
07:51<@planetmaker>I had it failing on updating libpng
07:51<Ammler>the grf is still ok if build with that version on that time
07:51<Snail_>should I update it now?
07:51<andythenorth>if the md5 sum has changed, any testing of the grf is now invalid
07:51<Ammler>if building fails, it will rise a ticket
07:51<andythenorth>but manual testing is invalid...
07:51<andythenorth>we have no idea if the grf performs as expected
07:51<Ammler>just changing md5sum does usually not hurt
07:52<andythenorth>it means the grf has changed
07:52<andythenorth>therefore the code is untested ;)
07:52<Ammler>as long as you distribute the origin
07:52-!-Doorslammer [7da861ac@ircip3.mibbit.com] has quit [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client]
07:52<Ammler>yes, but the changed grf is not distributed somewhere
07:52<andythenorth>should I stop telling people to use bundles server for downloads?
07:52<Ammler>why?
07:53<andythenorth>hmm - maybe my assumptions about rebuild are wrong
07:53<Ammler>bundles does _not_ publish the rebuild
07:53<andythenorth>that was my faulty assumption
07:53<Ammler>and releases don't get rebuilds
07:53<andythenorth>ok, all is well :)
07:53<Ammler>we use that just for nightlies
07:54<Ammler>http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/nightlies/LATEST/log/REBUILD/ <-- it does publish :-)
07:55<Ammler>but that is quite hidden
07:55<andythenorth>why does MB struggle with ground sprites?
07:55<andythenorth>I miss the issue
07:55<@planetmaker>Snail_: do you have any Makefile.local floating around?
07:55<andythenorth>just specify an empty building sprite, or abuse the building sprite for one of the ground sprite layers
07:56*andythenorth sees no gain to the GS / BS distinction
07:56<andythenorth>sprites or childsprites, in a stack, is all is needed
07:56<andythenorth>Snail_: what does 'gcc' in a terminal tell you?
07:56<@planetmaker>andythenorth: yes, I could have told that. But given the way he asks without giving any way he wants to go, I chose to answer as verbose as the question was
07:57<Snail_>nope... I just searched for "makefile.local" files on my HD and I found none
07:57<@planetmaker>would need to be in the grfcodec dir where you build it
07:57<@planetmaker>but with capital M
07:57<@planetmaker>hm... do you have a FS where case matters, Snail_?
07:57<@planetmaker>andythenorth: do you have a file system where case matters?
07:58<@planetmaker>FS = file system
07:58<andythenorth>don't think so
07:58<andythenorth>let me check
07:58<Snail_>I'm on OS X, I don't think it matters
07:58<andythenorth>Disk Utility will know
07:58<andythenorth>Snail_: it's a format option
07:58<@planetmaker>Snail_: that depends. It matters on mine and it's an install-time option to choose that or not
07:58<Ammler>Snail_: you tested with a clean fresh checkout too?
07:58<andythenorth>planetmaker: mine is not case sensitive
07:59<andythenorth>Mac OS Extended (Journaled)
07:59<Snail_>in that grfcodec dir, I found Makefile, Makefile.bundle and Makefile.local.sample
07:59<Snail_>andythenorth: it tells me "i686-apple-darwin10-gcc-4.2.1: no input files"
07:59<andythenorth>identical to mine
08:00<@planetmaker>so we use the same compiler, all three of us
08:00<@planetmaker>make --version
08:00<Snail_>GNU Make 3.81
08:00<@planetmaker>also same
08:00<andythenorth>+1
08:01<Snail_>also, in the dir for grfcodec r900 I also found three makefile's called with the same name
08:01<Snail_>and that one compiles fine...
08:01<andythenorth>something in the repo?
08:01<andythenorth>hmm
08:01<andythenorth>try rm src/data?
08:01<@planetmaker>eh, you got separate dirs for them, Snail_?
08:01<Snail_>of course :)
08:01<@planetmaker>of course? I have one where I checkout, build and done
08:02<Snail_>in each case, I go to the correct directory and run "make all"
08:02<@planetmaker>you don't get the source via mercurial?
08:02<andythenorth>there's some folder that I have had to delete a couple of times to get grfcodec to build
08:02<Snail_>I get it from the webpage
08:02<@planetmaker>can you give me URL?
08:02<@planetmaker>so you build from a tar ball?
08:03<Snail_>http://www.openttd.org/en/download-nforenum-nightly
08:03<@planetmaker>nforenum?
08:03<Ammler>that will be forwarded to grfcodec
08:03<Snail_>that page is called nforenum, but it has the sources for grfcodec
08:03<Ammler>planetmaker: it is like you call testing but there are none
08:03<Ammler><grfcodec> in finger
08:03*andythenorth tries compile
08:03<@planetmaker>indeed it's re-directed to download-grfcodec
08:04<andythenorth>I just compiled the src from here: http://gb.binaries.openttd.org/binaries/extra/grfcodec-trunk/r920/grfcodec-trunk-r920-source.zip
08:04<andythenorth>works fine
08:04<andythenorth>r920
08:04<@planetmaker>ok, that trunk tar ball fails here
08:04<Snail_>ok, will try nonw
08:05<Snail_>*now
08:05<@planetmaker>hm, no, it doesn't fail really
08:06<@planetmaker>though it gives the error you quoted with /bin/sh: line 0: [: =: unary operator expected
08:06<andythenorth>I got that too
08:06<andythenorth>but in that dir, ./grfcodec works
08:06<@planetmaker>yes, here, too
08:06<andythenorth>Snail_: is your priority to have a working compile, or a working grfcodec?
08:07<Snail_>this works!
08:07<@planetmaker>but... that's the same source
08:07<Snail_>andythenorth: yes it is, because the current nforenum doesn't support property 0A for railtypes
08:07<Snail_>planetmaker: really? where is that downloadable from?
08:08<@planetmaker>andy posted the mirror link to where the link you gaves directs people from GB (and near there)
08:08<andythenorth>hmm
08:08<@planetmaker>I took the source from what you gave, snail, and it works, too
08:09<Snail_>that's really strange
08:09<andythenorth>Snail_: is it sorted or not? I can send you a bundle if you need it
08:09<@planetmaker>but it is identical. As our main server updates those mirrors...
08:09<Snail_>now I tried to go back to the old version and it compiles...
08:09<Snail_>the funny thing is that I didn't change anything there
08:09<Snail_>anyway... now it looks like it works
08:09<Snail_>sorry for the trouble guys :)
08:10<@planetmaker>you changed something: you ran make at least once before
08:10<Ammler>the bin/sh error is here too
08:10<@planetmaker>in the same dir
08:10<Ammler>on tarball, not with hg checkout
08:10<@planetmaker>that might change *something*
08:10<Snail_>well, I put the file I got from Andy's link in another dir and compiled it there
08:11<Snail_>then I came back to the old r920 dir and tried to compile it there, too, where it didn't work yesterday
08:11<Snail_>and both worked
08:12<@planetmaker>would be nice to be able to *not* get it working again (maybe unzip the tar anew and try there or so)
08:12<@planetmaker>as it then might point to where the error lies
08:13<Snail_>ok, let me try
08:14<Snail_>this is puzzling. I just re-downloaded it from the nforenum page, put it in a different directory, tried to compile it, ad it's compiling correctly
08:17<Ammler>Snail_: aren't you able to close the ticket?
08:17<Ammler>something with the devzone workflow is broken :-/
08:19<Snail_>well, I wrote a message saying it's solved
08:19<Snail_>now I need to go...
08:20<Ammler>yes, it's an issue with devzone workflow, author should be able to close/reject a ticket
08:21*andythenorth will soon be offering sprite generator to retail consumers
08:21<Snail_>bye all
08:21<andythenorth>Super Discount on first purchase
08:21<andythenorth>:)
08:21<andythenorth>bye Snail_
08:23<@planetmaker>Ammler: only members of a project currently can close an issue
08:23<@planetmaker>https://dev.openttdcoop.org/workflows/edit?role_id=1&tracker_id=1&used_statuses_only=0&used_statuses_only=1
08:23<@planetmaker>non-members can't close
08:24<@planetmaker>they can set the status to resolved. That's fine. IMHO. Exactly as it is
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08:25<Ammler>planetmaker: there is additional section: "Additional transitions allowed when the user is the author"
08:25<@planetmaker>yep. And 'resolved' is good enough, imho
08:25<@planetmaker>and I was talking about that section specifically
08:26<Ammler>ah, but that is not marked, closed is marked
08:27<andythenorth>hmm
08:28<andythenorth>it's a hard balance between flexible classes for reuse by others, and lots of parameters and scaffolding :(
08:28<@planetmaker>http://imagebin.org/201369 <-- Ammler, you see in the lower half?
08:30<Ammler>yes, and you think, resolved is marked?
08:30<@planetmaker>I do
08:31<@planetmaker>closed and rejected are the only inaccessible options for non-members for issues they opened themselves
08:32<@planetmaker>actually... I probably just interpret the wrong way
08:40<andythenorth>hmm
08:40<andythenorth>I never figured out what ottd rev I should set in Bnnananas for FIRS
08:41<@planetmaker>the newgrf version
08:41<@planetmaker>thus the decimal equivalent of 0x0102008xxxxx
08:41<@planetmaker>where xxxxx is the hex equivalent of the svn rev
08:43<@planetmaker>actually.... make that 8 a 0
08:43<@planetmaker>might be better
08:43<andythenorth>and the svn rev is...? :)
08:43<@planetmaker>the 8 indicates release
08:43<andythenorth>http://vcs.openttd.org/svn/changeset/23897/ looks plausible
08:44<Ammler>or use latest nightly
08:45<andythenorth>@topic
08:45<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: 1.1.5, 1.2.0-RC1 | Website: *.openttd.org (translator: translator, server list: servers, wiki: wiki, patches & bug-reports: bugs, revision log: vcs, release info: finger) | Don't ask to ask, just ask | 'Latest' is not a valid version, ever | English only
08:45<Ammler>or whatever openttd you have tested it
08:45<andythenorth>:)
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08:45<Ammler>at least don't use a earlier
08:46<@planetmaker>I'd use the rev of openttd 1.2.0-RC1
08:46<@planetmaker>using latest nightly is too strong, Ammler
08:46<andythenorth>+1 planetmaker
08:47<Ammler>planetmaker: depends which openttd andy is using righ tnow
08:47<@planetmaker>r23971, andythenorth
08:47<@planetmaker>@ base 10 16 23971
08:47<@DorpsGek>planetmaker: 5DA3
08:47<andythenorth>yup
08:47<andythenorth>thanks
08:48<@planetmaker>@base 16 10 010200005DA3
08:48<@DorpsGek>planetmaker: 1108101586339
08:48<@planetmaker>^^ andythenorth
08:48<andythenorth>bananas doesn't use the svn rev?
08:48<andythenorth>hmm
08:48<Ammler>planetmaker: that is like define /bin/sh as shell but always test with bash ;-)
08:48<andythenorth>I've been doing it wrong in that case :P
08:48-!-Rhamphoryncus [~rhamph@d161-184-227-133.abhsia.telus.net] has joined #openttd
08:48<Ammler>so instead test with other shells, define bash as shell ;-)
08:49<@planetmaker>andythenorth: yes ;-) As the svn rev does not give you the branch correctly. This way allows to distinguish
08:49<@planetmaker>Like 1.1.5 is much older than an August nightly. But the newgrf version of the August nightly is much higher than the one of 1.1.5
08:49<@planetmaker>as it's 010105... vs 010200...
08:50<Ammler>and what is the release flag for?
08:50<andythenorth>so 1108101586339
08:51<@planetmaker>Ammler: so that a release is higher than a non-release... and that you can identify a release
08:51<@planetmaker>but well. no other purpose than to tell 'release'
08:52<Ammler>ah, as soon as 1.2 is released, you change to 1.3 for trunk
08:52<@planetmaker>yup. Already done
08:52*andythenorth tests bananas now with r23969
08:53<@planetmaker>as soon as branching, Ammler
08:53<Ammler>of course :-)
08:54<Ammler>but then, he should use the release flag
08:54<@planetmaker>why?
08:54<Ammler>oh well, doesn't matter
08:54<@planetmaker>just any nightly will do from that svn onward
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08:55<Ammler>the release flag is basically a workaround, if someone would still use 1.2 for trunk after branching
08:56<andythenorth>ok FIRS 0.7.1 doesn't appear with 32969
08:56<andythenorth>23969 /s
08:58<@planetmaker>how inconvenient. Trunk crashes on start :-(
08:58<andythenorth>hmm
08:58<andythenorth>FIRS 0.7.1 doesn't appear now for ottd tip :P
08:59<andythenorth>can anyone else confirm that it's not just me? :)
08:59<andythenorth>0.7.0 doesn't appear for me either though
08:59<andythenorth>hmm
09:00<andythenorth>that's odd
09:01<Ammler>andythenorth: no firs with rc1
09:01<Ammler>well, 0.6.4
09:01<andythenorth>me too
09:01<andythenorth>no 0.7.0 or 0.7.1
09:01<andythenorth>but I didn't touch the version requirement for 0.7.0
09:01<andythenorth>and people have been downloading it :P
09:02<Ammler>andythenorth: you do not need this version thing on the bananas
09:02<Ammler>that is for newgrf
09:02<Rhamphoryncus>Hrm. I'm using 0.7.1 atm but the "check online content" only says 0.6.4. Using r23974
09:02<andythenorth>hmm
09:03<Ammler>on bananas you use the menu
09:03<Ammler>or the rev
09:03<andythenorth>Ammler: so what value do I set in the menu?
09:03<Ammler>23791
09:04<Ammler>planetmaker: right?
09:04<andythenorth>andythenorth: bananas doesn't use the svn rev? <- planetmaker: andythenorth: yes As the svn rev does not give you the branch correctly. This way allows to distinguish
09:04<Ammler>ok :-)
09:04<Ammler>sorry then, but it seems to be an issue there then
09:04<Ammler>maybe simply set release to 1.2
09:04<andythenorth>hmm
09:05<andythenorth>I paste 1108101586339 into bananas rev field
09:05<andythenorth>but it re-renders it as 1845493759
09:05<Ammler>no
09:05<Ammler>yes
09:05<andythenorth>this is very odd
09:05<Ammler>overflow maybe?
09:05<andythenorth>no idea
09:05<@planetmaker>hm... maybe I added too many digits
09:05<@planetmaker>possibly
09:06<@planetmaker>@base 16 10 12005da3
09:06<@DorpsGek>planetmaker: 302013859
09:06<@planetmaker>^^ sorry andythenorth
09:06<andythenorth>this seems quite painful bureaucracy :D
09:06<@planetmaker>not one byte but one nibble per version number
09:06<andythenorth>one day...a bananas rebuild
09:07<@planetmaker>seems I'm in for some fun... http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/1163/
09:07<andythenorth>oh
09:08<andythenorth>looks horrible :(
09:08<andythenorth>hmm
09:08<andythenorth>ottd tip still won't see FIRS
09:09<andythenorth>solved
09:09<andythenorth>use the 'custom' field not nightly
09:09<andythenorth>23971 is not a nightly
09:09<Ammler>I think, it would also work, if you would use svn revs only
09:09<Ammler>as long as you do not mix
09:10<Ammler>but as you used this extended version on 0.6.4 already
09:10<Ammler>so that is why 0.7.0 is hidden
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09:10<andythenorth>it's not easy is it :)
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09:11<Ammler>the need to add release version to the version check is very rare
09:11<Ammler>planetmaker: can you tell a scenario, when this could matter?
09:12<andythenorth>hmm
09:12<andythenorth>FIRS 0.7.1 is also available to r23969
09:13<Ammler>yes, because trunk is 1.3
09:13<@planetmaker>sorry, I can't help you now, andythenorth. No working OpenTTD
09:13<andythenorth>:(
09:13<andythenorth>FIRS also works in r23969
09:13<andythenorth>meh
09:13<Ammler>but as I said, on trunk, only latest working nightly matters :-)
09:14<andythenorth>this is thoroughly confusing tbh
09:14<Ammler>12005da3 < 12005da1
09:14<Ammler>12005da3 < 13005da1 *
09:14<andythenorth>I might just set no min version
09:15<andythenorth>ottd should handle this better
09:15<Ammler>why do you care about trunk?
09:15<andythenorth>downloading and reporting success for a grf it can't use is dumb
09:15<andythenorth>Ammler: I don't know of any alternative
09:15<andythenorth>what are the options?
09:15<Ammler>not care about outdated trunk
09:16<Ammler>only expeimantal people use those and those you need not to handle, they do that self
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09:16<andythenorth>ok, I have to set the min version to something so I've set it to 0
09:16<Ammler>no
09:17<Ammler>why not keep the version you had from pm?
09:17<Ammler>it is fine for releases
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09:17<Ammler>you should care, that 1.1.5 does not download 0.7.1
09:18<@planetmaker>right... seems I messed with OpenGFX enough so that it crashes each OpenTTD I tried
09:18<andythenorth>Ammler I don't understand how to do that
09:18<andythenorth>is there a spec for this anywhere?
09:18<Ammler>like pm said, you did alright
09:18<andythenorth>newgrf spec has nothing on bananas
09:18<Ammler>your only fault was to test with a very strange trunk revision
09:19<andythenorth>ottd wiki says "Minimal Version: The minimal game version required to use your work. When selecting Nightly or Custom, fill in the nightly revision number or the name and version of the required patchpack in the adjacent field."
09:19<Ammler>test with openttd 1.1.5 and 1.2.rc1
09:20<Ammler>andythenorth: again, you setup that fine, you just tested wrongly :-P
09:20<andythenorth>but there's no spec
09:20<andythenorth>can't be wrong if there's no spec :P
09:20<Ammler>you think, where does pm has it from?
09:20<andythenorth>code?
09:21<@planetmaker>should be found there... but also that's what rb told me (long) ago
09:22<@planetmaker>unless I have a faulty memory
09:22<@planetmaker>not unheard of, though
09:22<Ammler>planetmaker: there is no way to exclude older trunk but include current stable?
09:23<@planetmaker>hm?
09:23<Ammler>[15:14] <Ammler> 12005da3 < 13005da1
09:23<@planetmaker>you can set a min and a max version...
09:23<andythenorth>I've set it back to 302013859
09:23<andythenorth>I'm just going to trust it works
09:23<andythenorth>I've got a demanding toddler and a cross wife, and I skipped lunch so far trying to fix this
09:24<andythenorth>;)
09:24<Ammler>planetmaker: how to setup a version which is backported from trunk?
09:24<andythenorth>I don't have time to download stables
09:24<andythenorth>if anyone else does, the effort would be appreciated
09:25*andythenorth bbl
09:25<Ammler>they just need to check, what version bananas offers for firs on 1.1.5
09:25<Rhamphoryncus>I'll do it
09:26<Rhamphoryncus>I forgot how to workaround svn's daftness so I have all these tag dirs full of stables..
09:26<@planetmaker>lol, you did an svn co of the full svn repo?
09:26<Rhamphoryncus>yup
09:26<Ammler>Rhamphoryncus: we offer a hg repo with tags on hg.openttdcoop.org
09:27<@planetmaker>that's a long download
09:27<Rhamphoryncus>Wasn't until after that I remembered how to do it properly
09:27<Ammler>there is also a git pendant somewhere around
09:27<Rhamphoryncus>even better: my network was acting up and I kept having to resume it
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09:27<Rhamphoryncus>My work is done via hg but for openttdcoop I need to track a svn revision
09:28<Ammler>Rhamphoryncus: not with the repo from hg.openttdcoop.org
09:28<Rhamphoryncus>huh?
09:28<Ammler>https://hg.openttdcoop.org/openttd
09:29<Ammler>oh, I need to add 1.2
09:29<Rhamphoryncus>Yes, the logs have version numbers but I don't want to search the logs for the right hg number
09:31<Rhamphoryncus>Only 0.6.4 :/
09:31<andythenorth>for 1.1.5?
09:31<Rhamphoryncus>yup
09:31<andythenorth>good
09:31<andythenorth>that's probably success
09:31<Rhamphoryncus>oh :)
09:32<andythenorth>if 1.2.0-RC1 can see 0.7.1 that's definitely success imo
09:32<Rhamphoryncus>and.. trunk has 0.7.1 again
09:32<Ammler>Rhamphoryncus: check the repo again, openttdcoop.org != openttd.org
09:33<Rhamphoryncus>Ammler: it looks like it's the same thing
09:33<Ammler>yes, but it has tags
09:33<Ammler>it uses another method to convert svn repo
09:33<Rhamphoryncus>So what is the tag for r23974?
09:34<Ammler>why do you care about that?
09:34<Rhamphoryncus>That's what I need to play openttdcoop
09:34<Ammler>hg up "svn(23974)"
09:34<Rhamphoryncus>o.O
09:34<Rhamphoryncus>fuck :P
09:34<Ammler>but that works with hg.openttd.org too
09:35<Rhamphoryncus>I may try that later, but with my luck it'll set my monitor on fire *g*
09:35<Ammler>hmm, might need hgsubversion installed
09:35<Ammler>but then you can also simply grep for svn rev, check findversion.sh
09:36<Rhamphoryncus>I'll likely try hg.openttdcoop.org later anyway, as the openttd.org one seems to not do merges.
09:36<Ammler>it has only trunk
09:36<Rhamphoryncus>Not merging is bad for working on openttd :)
09:36<Ammler>for working on it, you need trunk only :-)
09:37<Rhamphoryncus>If both I and upstream touched a file it'd do nothing more than throw gvimdiff at me and laugh
09:37<Rhamphoryncus>Which.. is worse than CVS, heh.
09:37<Ammler>but for playing, you can have one repo and simply make BUNDLE_DIR="bundles/ps" etc.
09:37<Rhamphoryncus>what's that do?
09:38<Ammler>make bundle installs the bunlde to ./bundle, you can can change that via bundle_dir
09:38<Rhamphoryncus>what's a bundle? :P
09:38<Ammler>the binary package
09:39<Ammler>a copy from ./bin basically
09:39<Rhamphoryncus>ah
09:40<Rhamphoryncus>Well I'm pretty sure I won't be eliminating my other copies, heh
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09:44<Belugas>hello
09:48<andythenorth>Ammler: hg up "svn(23974)" <- :0 I need that
09:48<andythenorth>I'm so bored of opening the log and reading svn revs by hand
09:48<Ammler>check hg for revmap and filemap etc.
09:48<Ammler>there are lots of such things
09:49<Ammler>but the above might need hgsubversion installed
09:49<andythenorth>I've been considering that anyway
09:49<Rhamphoryncus>Oh, that's a given with hg and git: there is an obscure way to do what you want. Probably 6 obscure ways.
09:49*andythenorth has no time to play with hgsubversion today though :P
09:49<andythenorth>poo awaits
09:50<andythenorth>not mine
09:50<Ammler>hg clone hgsubversion
09:50<Ammler>include the dir in your hgrc [extensions]
09:51<andythenorth>k
09:53<Ammler>I patched hgsubversion so it does add svn rev to the comment, but the hgrev is also part of meta data which you can see with hg log --debug
09:53<Ammler>svnrev*
09:54<Ammler>usually hgsubversion is needed only, if you want to push to a svn repo too, else in most cases hg convert suiffices
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09:57*Rhamphoryncus upgrades his alcohol trains to americans :D
10:02<MNIM>...but... americans have low alcohol tolerance!
10:02*MNIM ducks
10:03<Rhamphoryncus>Yeah, and I'm canadian and don't drink anyway, so what do I care what it does to them?
10:15<MNIM>well, your American alcohol trains are bound to be bad.
10:17<Rhamphoryncus>They only look like American's. They're secretly carrying Gavan's Brew
10:18<MNIM>ahah
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10:46<Belugas>alcohol? somebody mentionned alcohol?
10:46<_maddy>hi openttd folks
10:46<MNIM>shoo shoo, nobody said anything of the kind. Now kindly move on, please.
10:46*MNIM puts Belugas back on a train to poland.
10:48*planetmaker wonders about the meaning of the word 'back'
10:48*Belugas mumbles and grumbles and picks up his coffee mug with a disgusted look in his eyes
10:48<Belugas>mmh... now that you mention it, planetmaker, me too!
10:57*Rhamphoryncus fires Norris, and all his Norris friends!
11:00<Elukka>http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z113/Elucca/20m.png
11:00<Elukka>wheee orbital rendezvous
11:00<Elukka>kerbal space program is great fun
11:01<Sacro>Yes
11:01<Sacro>damn straight
11:02<Sacro>until you're 230Mm out with no chance of return
11:02<Elukka>someone figured out how to merge save games
11:02<Elukka>http://cloud.steampowered.com/ugc/522654444002391842/FC85D00D87A31A20152DF1C513BB81F7A220B7E8/
11:04<Elukka>rendezvous is hard. much harder than flying to the moon or anything else i've done
11:04<Elukka>it's easy enough to get to the same orbit, the hard part is getting there at the right time
11:10<Rhamphoryncus>Aha, oops. I just realized I'm selling some excess vehicles.. during a recession
11:20-!-supermop [~daniel_er@rrcs-72-43-171-87.nyc.biz.rr.com] has joined #openttd
11:23<@planetmaker>anyone want to see an extensive NewGRF list? http://www.tt-ms.de/forum/showthread.php?tid=5781
11:26<Rhamphoryncus>That looks comparable to what I use
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11:27<Rhamphoryncus>~45 not including town names
11:29<Rhamphoryncus>I count 75 for them
11:29<supermop>planetmaker: why do you bother using my depot but not the sheds?
11:29<supermop>its not that nice of a depot currently
11:30<@planetmaker>you think it's my newgrf list, supermop?
11:30<@planetmaker>it's the list of NewGRFs used by the person posting the screenshot with the question there
11:31<@planetmaker>reason for his trouble: NewGRF interference ;-)
11:31<Rhamphoryncus>I've had a lot of that :/
11:31<@planetmaker>it's easy to arrive there
11:31<Rhamphoryncus>newgrfs are complicated black-boxes
11:32<@planetmaker>they need be neither. But can be
11:32<supermop>does oberhümer come here?
11:32<@planetmaker>yes
11:33<@planetmaker>well. sometimes.
11:33<supermop>he was working on helping me by making my depot grf a rail type thing
11:33<Rhamphoryncus>Even in the best case.. I know NARS is supposed to have trains, but what and when? Only reason I know is someone put them on a wiki
11:33<supermop>so that with nutracks, you would get all of the different styles
11:33<@planetmaker>Rhamphoryncus: that someone was the author himself
11:33<Rhamphoryncus>I figured
11:34<@planetmaker>supermop: better way is though to contact him via forum mail or e-mail
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11:48<sponge>Evenin fellas
11:49-!-morph_ [~4e547932@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has joined #openttd
11:49<morph_>Can anyone try to join 95.143.38.18 (1.1.5-Stable) and check out if it's lagging? Because the stupid server lags for me :(
11:49<sponge>Is it possible to order a vehicle to stop at all stations it passes or do I have to add a Go to order for every station?
11:51<Rhamphoryncus>sponge: the default (not non-stop) stops in each station the vehicle happens to pass through
11:51<Rhamphoryncus>But explicitly including each station is more reliable
11:52<sponge>Rhamphoryncus: how do you mean more reliable?
11:52<@planetmaker>sponge: if the train must visit the station on the way, it will stop there if you do not use non-stop orders
11:52<sponge>i have probably 100+ stations
11:52<sponge>ok cool.
11:53<Rhamphoryncus>Any tweak to your network can alter where it goes. Even other traffic can. If it has a choice.
11:54<sponge>Rhamphoryncus: circular line
11:54<Rhamphoryncus>Alright, that's fine then
11:54<sponge>although i noticed it tried switching direction on the one station i did specify, but specifying two of the most distant stations seems to work
11:54<Rhamphoryncus>Are you using shared orders?
11:54<sponge>Yeah.
11:55<sponge>got about 40 trains just going in a big loop
11:55*Rhamphoryncus nods
11:55<sponge>should be ok then if i specify two stations
11:55<Rhamphoryncus>There's also an option in advanced settings to make goto "stick", so you can click one, click another, etc
11:56-!-macee [~macee@dsl4E5C1F69.pool.t-online.hu] has joined #openttd
11:56<morph_>Can a NewGrf lag your multiplayer server?
11:56<Eddi|zuHause>"Max Payne (2001) removed from The Index"
11:58<@planetmaker>morph_: not on their own. But NewGRFs can use additional CPU
11:58<@planetmaker>but the lag could also be your computer locally. Which is barely able to keep up with the server
11:58<@planetmaker>check whether your openttd uses 100% of the single one core it runs on
12:06<andythenorth>hmm
12:06<andythenorth>projectile baby sick
12:06<Rhamphoryncus>eww :P
12:06<Rhamphoryncus>andythenorth: if you'd like any help redesigning or reprogramming farmsup/engsup just let me know. They're killing it for me.
12:07<andythenorth>there are tickets for them
12:07<Rhamphoryncus>I know, we discussed it a bit before
12:07<Rhamphoryncus>Now I'm offering labour
12:08<andythenorth>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/2296
12:08<andythenorth>planetmaker has a partial patch
12:09<morph_>OpenTTD is using like <1% of CPU
12:09<morph_>But there's like lag on my network server
12:09<@planetmaker>1%? That's ... hard to believe tbh
12:09*andythenorth is a bit interested in other projects right now, FIRS less so ;)
12:09<morph_>It feels like low fps - trains move not smooth but like in jumps, if you know what i mean
12:10<Rubidium>sounds like an unreliable network
12:10<morph_>0.1 % ./openttd -D -f
12:11<morph_>That's CPU usage and the command I'm using to start server
12:11<morph_>I did a traceroute, yet no packet loss was found
12:12<andythenorth>what sane cases are there for spritesheets where the height of each row varies?
12:12<@planetmaker>construction stages. growth stages
12:12<andythenorth>so buildings
12:12<@planetmaker>loaded / unloaded vehicles
12:12<andythenorth>that was the only case I could think of so far
12:13<andythenorth>is it necessary for vehicles?
12:13<@planetmaker>no
12:13<@planetmaker>strictly speaking necessary nowhere, if you crop sprites
12:13-!-Pulec [~pulec@static-cl093181068250.unet.cz] has joined #openttd
12:14<andythenorth>trying to eliminate parameters
12:14<andythenorth>flexibility vs complexity :P
12:14*andythenorth has never designed code for use by other people before :o
12:15<Rhamphoryncus>"((random_bits << 2) & 1)" Isn't that shift backwards?
12:16<Rubidium>depends what your expected result is; if you want a consistent result, this is the way to go
12:17<Rhamphoryncus>heh
12:17<Rubidium>if you want the result to be something else than 0, then it's wrong... unless it's a programming language where << is a ROL
12:17<Rhamphoryncus>http://xkcd.com/221/
12:18<Rhamphoryncus>Rubidium: btw, have you tracked down the leader yet? I hear rumours that they're skulking around here somewhere.
12:19<Rubidium>huh?
12:19<andythenorth>hmm
12:19<andythenorth>what's left to do?
12:20<Rhamphoryncus>Rubidium: referring to my first conversation with you where I commented on not seeing any leadership
12:20<andythenorth>leadership? :O
12:20<andythenorth>this is an anarchy
12:20<andythenorth>with Rubidium as chief anarchist
12:21<Rhamphoryncus>well, yes
12:21-!-mahmoud [~KEM@ALyon-158-1-105-49.w90-29.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #openttd
12:21<Rhamphoryncus>He didn't tell me that though. Let me ramble on to him as if he was just another peon
12:22<andythenorth>do you need leaders in a meta-game?
12:22<andythenorth>can't you just have players?
12:22<Rhamphoryncus>it'd help
12:23*andythenorth is playing a meta-game callec
12:23<andythenorth>"how many features can you get added without writing any c++?"
12:23-!-sla_ro|master [slaco@95.76.26.172] has joined #openttd
12:23<andythenorth>dunno who's winning though, me or the game :P
12:24<Rhamphoryncus>My first instinct was to say the game, simply by making you play.. but we are talking about C++
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12:25<Rubidium>the question is, what is C++ and what isn't?
12:25<Rubidium>a = b
12:25<Rubidium>that could interpreted as C++
12:25<Rubidium>with the semi colon being on another line, or whatever
12:26<Rubidium>but then basically all written characters can be argued to be valid C++
12:26*Rhamphoryncus suddenly gets the feeling that Rubidium is a very clever and elaborate troll ;)
12:26<andythenorth>I'd say if it's committed to the repo and compiles, that counts for n points ;)
12:27<andythenorth>possibly I'm writing things that are valid c++ if put through a transform :P
12:27<Rubidium>Rhamphoryncus: thank you for noticing I'm a supernatural being ;)
12:28<andythenorth>transform is usually another human being
12:28<Rhamphoryncus>heh
12:28<Rubidium>although I'd love it if you would use the term jötunn
12:29<@planetmaker>haha :-)
12:29<Rhamphoryncus>Google seems to think that's a wow character
12:30*andythenorth needs to write a sprite loader
12:30<andythenorth>because sequencing bitmaps manually by (x,y,colour) might not be for everyone :P
12:30<andythenorth>works for me
12:31<andythenorth>typing is better than click-move-click-choosecolour-move-click blah
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12:31<@planetmaker>Rhamphoryncus: then you didn't look properly or only in the games' section
12:32<Rhamphoryncus>planetmaker: there's only ~4 pages of results. I'm not picking a section
12:32<@planetmaker>I picked the first entry which was a wiki link...
12:32<Rhamphoryncus>I suspect it's giving me a different set
12:33<@planetmaker>thus arguing with 4 pages doesn't cut it
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12:33<Rhamphoryncus>google .ca gives 7 pages
12:33<Rhamphoryncus>First result is the wow character
12:33*andythenorth will just spoil it for you
12:33<andythenorth>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jötunn
12:33<andythenorth>first result for me
12:34<andythenorth>;)
12:34<@planetmaker>:-( @ andythenorth
12:34<andythenorth>game over !
12:34<_maddy>anyone want to start a cooperative multiplayer game with me?
12:34<@planetmaker>indeed
12:34<Rhamphoryncus>See, there's the problem. I trusted rubidium's spelling and google didn't correct it. Clever troll!
12:34<@planetmaker>where's the spelling incorrect?
12:35<Rhamphoryncus>_maddy: I would but I have to iron my underwear
12:35<Rhamphoryncus>oh damnit, it was just me that misread & misspelled it :'(
12:35-!-supermop [~daniel_er@rrcs-72-43-171-87.nyc.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: supermop]
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12:36<andythenorth>hmm
12:36<andythenorth>do I need a pathname generator for spritesheets?
12:36<_maddy>can multiplayer games be saved and continued later, even if not played on an actual server?
12:36<andythenorth>or can people just concatenate foo+blah+cargo+'.png' ?
12:38*andythenorth suspects these questions can't be answered (yet)
12:39<Rhamphoryncus>_maddy: yes, you can go on a multiplayer server, save it locally, and replay it locally
12:40<_maddy>Rhamphoryncus: but if I'm not on a actual server, but just host a multiplayer game on my client?
12:40-!-HerzogDeXtEr [~Flex@88.130.168.243] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
12:40<Rhamphoryncus>I've never tried setting up multiplayer, sorry
12:42<andythenorth>if I have a Pixa module, and some of my python classes are PixaFoo....should class Bar really be PixaBar (for consistency)?
12:42-!-TWerkhoven [~twerkhove@cpc3-linl7-2-0-cust522.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd
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12:47*planetmaker has his own MP servers ;-)
12:47-!-cypher [~Miranda@ip-86-49-73-178.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd
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13:02<Zuu>I once developed my own autopilot for running 3 hour long games on a small map, but when it was ready, I realized that I don't have time to support it by beeing an active admin. So it was never opened.
13:05<@planetmaker>he
13:08<sponge>can two cities actually merge and become one?
13:08<Zuu>no
13:08<sponge>if i destroy a building of town A, can town B add a new house there?
13:08<sponge>and, in the long run take over an area
13:09-!-break19 [~break19@c-71-229-1-99.hsd1.al.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
13:09<Zuu>You can destroy all houses of town A, and have town B cover its area, but the town entity is still there.
13:09<Eddi|zuHause>there was something about when one town built on a tile, and it is destroyed, no other town will ever claim that tile
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13:11<sponge>guess il find out in a while
13:13*andythenorth seeks synonyms for 'sequence'
13:13<andythenorth>too much of my code is sequence = Sequence(sequence=trailersequence)
13:13<andythenorth>blah
13:18<Rhamphoryncus>I'd use seq for a variable name
13:18-!-lmergen [~lmergen@5352EA70.cm-6-3d.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has joined #openttd
13:19<valhallasw>andythenorth: maybe take a more descriptive name, such as something that describes what it's a sequence of
13:19<valhallasw>i.e. 'trailers'
13:20<valhallasw>or do some more refactoring to reduce the numnber of sequences ;-)
13:20<Rhamphoryncus>Or use more sets :D
13:20<andythenorth>did that already :)
13:20<andythenorth>fewer sequences ftw
13:22<andythenorth>hmm
13:23<andythenorth>dictionary just tells me my terms are already correct :P
13:23<andythenorth>what I'm doing is spookily close to DNA mapping (at a high level)
13:23<andythenorth>I have the equivalent of chromosomes mapping to gene sequences
13:24<andythenorth>calling my mappings 'chromosomes' is probably silly and pointlessly quirky
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13:30<andythenorth>abbreviations?
13:30<andythenorth>front_stakes_sequence_collection => front_stakes_sc ?
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13:36<andythenorth>Alberth: o/
13:37<@Alberth>o/
13:38<@Alberth>pixa 2 finished! that was quick :)
13:40<andythenorth>went really quickly once I had time to start :)
13:40<andythenorth>it works, it makes sense
13:40<andythenorth>:o
13:40<andythenorth>it could use code review / refactoring
13:41<andythenorth>I need to convert my other gestalts to use it, which might show up oversights in the design
13:42<@Alberth>can you point me to some Python code please?
13:43<andythenorth>got BANDIT checked out?
13:44<andythenorth>or read it online, the only two files that matter are http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/bandit/repository/changes/misc/pixel_generator/pixa.py
13:44<andythenorth>and http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/bandit/repository/changes/misc/pixel_generator/gestalts/flat_trailer.py
13:44<@Alberth>I have it somewhere, I'll update and have a look
13:44<andythenorth>hmm
13:44<andythenorth>I gain nothing by making an object where a dict really does just work?
13:45<andythenorth>class / object /s
13:45*andythenorth knows a dict is an object :P
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: translators * r23999 /trunk/src/lang/ (5 files):
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: belarusian - 1 changes by Wowanxm
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: french - 67 changes by OliTTD
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: greek - 7 changes by vitalblue
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: indonesian - 4 changes by prof
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: italian - 1 changes by lorenzodv
13:46<@Alberth>unless you want something 'extra' (or you want 'less'), no, using a standard data structure is simpler then :)
13:47<Rhamphoryncus>andythenorth: dict is more robust too. A class has limitations on key names
13:47<Rhamphoryncus>(which won't always show up, heh)
13:49<andythenorth>coloursets are just dicts then
13:49<andythenorth>by convention
13:50<andythenorth>it's tempting to create a class for every entity in the pipeline :P
13:51-!-morphium [~4e547932@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has joined #openttd
13:52<morphium>This is driving me crazy. Can anyone, please please please, connect to "95.143.38.18" (stable 1.1.5) and check if the train running in circles IS LAGGING or not?
13:52-!-morphium is now known as Guest4552
13:52<Guest4552>I can't find out whether that's my PC's problem, or my dedicated server's problem
13:52<@Alberth>look at the CPU load of both machines
13:53<@Alberth>if you have 1 core running at 100%, you have hit the ceiling :)
13:53<Guest4552>1% on server
13:53<@Alberth>andythenorth: throw in a few interfaces, and a factory, and you can start as a java programmer :)
13:54<Guest4552>I suppose I have to change my dedicated server or something
13:54*andythenorth considered a factory earlier :|
13:54<Guest4552>This just aint working :(
13:55<Rhamphoryncus>andythenorth: if it grows a helper method then make it a class. Easily to have it still look like a dict and thus be interchangeable
13:55<andythenorth>I'm working on the basis we want classes where we need a stable API (but the internals might change) and built-in entities otherwise
13:55<Rhamphoryncus>the "d['name'] = 42" API is perfectly reasonable for custom classes in many cases
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14:03<bolli>hi all...
14:03<bolli>i've got an unusual question
14:03<bolli>is there any documentation about the scenario file formats?
14:03<Wolf01>'lo!
14:04<bolli>i can't find anything on the wiki or forums...
14:04<+michi_cc>Look into src/saveload/*.cpp
14:05<bolli>thanks, i'll look
14:05<@planetmaker>bolli: it changes without notice. There are 167(?) different versions, as it changes for each new variable and so on
14:06<+michi_cc>No idea if somebody has written more anywhere, but the scenario format is identical to the savegame format.
14:07<+michi_cc>planetmaker: 174 + some unknown number of minor versions.
14:07<@planetmaker>I didn't look it up :-) But... I guess the order of magnitude defines effort
14:07<+michi_cc>Probably even more I guess, as adding a new chunk doesn't necessarily require a version bump.
14:07<@planetmaker>hm, true
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14:10<bolli_>bah... my horrid internet...
14:12<bolli_>what i was hoping to do was create a revision control system for scenarios...
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14:15<@Alberth>Hi 'lf01
14:15<@Alberth>bolli_: it is not a very stable format
14:16<bolli_>hmm thanks...
14:16<bolli_>is there a way to make a patch for multiplayer scenario editing?
14:16<@planetmaker>yes
14:16<@Alberth>a more useful direction would be to make a file format that is more independent of the savegame format
14:16<@planetmaker>you basically have to allow running the SE mode in multi player
14:17<bolli_>ok....
14:17<@planetmaker>and make sure it's not advertised as game but as scenario editor
14:17<@planetmaker>acutally I'd consider that a nice thing
14:17<bolli_>I'm not so sure how to go about that...
14:18<bolli_>my strong point is web development not C++
14:18<@Alberth>bolli_: you see that wrong, your biggest area of potential growth is C++
14:19<bolli_>:P
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14:20<Rhamphoryncus>planetmaker: I want to take a gander at finishing http://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/2296. Can you tell me how to import http://devs.openttd.org/~planetmaker/patches/firs/
14:21<sponge> /quit
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14:21<andythenorth>Rhamphoryncus: have you checked out FIRS?
14:21<Rhamphoryncus>yes
14:21-!-frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590fd0fe.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd
14:21<andythenorth>hmm
14:21<Rhamphoryncus>And attempted to import it, such that hg qseries now reports "firs"
14:21<@planetmaker>hg qimport
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14:22<Rhamphoryncus>planetmaker: more specifically?
14:22<@planetmaker>but in principle those are normal patches. So no special treatment needed
14:22<@planetmaker>the order is given by the naming in which they must be applied
14:23<Rhamphoryncus>So.. manually copy the url of every patch file in the directory?
14:23<@planetmaker>you may familiarize yourself with how mercurial queues work
14:23-!-Chris_Booth[ph]_ [~chrisboot@31.94.152.98] has joined #openttd
14:23<@planetmaker>there's no standard way to download the files, no there isn't
14:23<Rhamphoryncus>oi
14:23<@planetmaker>they were uploaded manually after all, too
14:23<@planetmaker>vi scp ... :-)
14:23-!-Tintinfan [~Bruce@host-78-150-185-16.as13285.net] has joined #openttd
14:23<@planetmaker>the whole patch queue dir
14:24<andythenorth>http://www.commercialmotor.com/big-lorry-blog/can-t-see-the-wood-for-the-trees-well-this-driver-obviously-can-t
14:24<@planetmaker>you could try things like curl or wget
14:24<Rhamphoryncus>heh
14:24<Rhamphoryncus>I just need the 5 in that dir?
14:25<bolli_>its vietnam, the road system works on biggest=right of way...
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14:25<bolli_>he doesn't need to be able to see, people just have to get out of his way... :P
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14:27<@planetmaker>Rhamphoryncus: you could put ALL those files in .hg/patches
14:27<Rhamphoryncus>I just used hg qimport on each URL
14:27<@planetmaker>and enable mq in your hgrc
14:27<Rhamphoryncus>Already enabled it
14:28<@Alberth>just edit the 'series' file :p
14:28<@planetmaker>then, if you had them in .hg/patches (relative to FIRS root), you could use hg qpush
14:28<Rhamphoryncus>.. how would pushing help? Especially once I already downloaded them?
14:29-!-Chris_Booth[ph] [~chrisboot@31.94.152.98] has quit [Quit: Colloquy for iPhone - http://colloquy.mobi]
14:29<@planetmaker>learn about mq :-)
14:29<Rhamphoryncus>:P
14:29<@planetmaker>if you imported them already, of course not
14:29<@Alberth>qpush != push
14:29<@planetmaker>^^ also
14:30<Rhamphoryncus>But .hg/patches was useful. I was able to delete the garbage "patch" it created when I previous attempted to import the dir
14:30<Rhamphoryncus>Obviously, but they should be similar in concept
14:30<Rhamphoryncus>oh right, they're not
14:31<@Alberth>not by a long shot :)
14:31<Rhamphoryncus>Yeah, I don't exactly feel responsible for that mistake
14:33-!-cyph3r [~Miranda@ip-86-49-67-69.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd
14:33<cyph3r>SMS co ti přišla odpovědí?
14:33<cyph3r>Damn, wrong window.
14:33<@planetmaker>quite
14:35<V453000>czech bastards ^^
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14:48*andythenorth -> beer
14:49<SpComb>mm beer
14:49<andythenorth>Alberth: so my questions include...
14:49<andythenorth>- should I rename Spritesheet to PixaSpritesheet?
14:49<andythenorth>- should I create a class for colourset (probably overkill)
14:50-!-Tintinfan [~Bruce@host-78-150-185-16.as13285.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
14:51<andythenorth>- can you think of an easy way for authors to specify a colourset when a sequence uses numbers, not variables for colour indexes
14:53<@SmatZ>beer!
14:54-!-Pulec [~pulec@static-cl093181068250.unet.cz] has quit []
15:02<@Alberth>andythenorth: what is a colourset in the code?
15:03<@Alberth>oh, the cc_1/2 perhaps
15:03<andythenorth>type is dict, purpose is to match colours (or vars) <-> indexes
15:03<andythenorth>I considered making it a type of transform, but it deserves a special case
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15:04<@Alberth>I don't understand the question yet
15:05<andythenorth>ah ok
15:06<andythenorth>hmm
15:06<andythenorth>so the pixarender method expects a colourset
15:07<@Alberth>'cc_1' : dict ( deck_colour = 115, company_colour = 202, ), <-- this thing
15:07<andythenorth>which is just a dict, e.g cc_1 in coloursets
15:08<andythenorth>yup
15:08<andythenorth>hmm
15:08<@Alberth>I was wondering why they are in a dict :)
15:08<andythenorth>it was a convenient way to get it working ;)
15:09<andythenorth>but I wonder if they should be a Pixa class
15:09<andythenorth>as the renderer kind of depends on them
15:09<andythenorth>currently my code suggest you could pass colourset=None, but you can't :P
15:10<andythenorth>they compose a mapping of vars:colour indexes, with an id which is used for filenames
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15:12<@Alberth>yeah, it would seem better to split those concepts, imho
15:13<andythenorth>I'm happy to
15:13<andythenorth>no inspiration struck me yet for it though :P
15:14<andythenorth>coloursets or such also need to be able to remap colours for a sequence that's loaded from a bitmap
15:19<@Alberth> http://devs.openttd.org/~alberth/020_setname_colourset_split.patch something like this perhaps?
15:19<@Alberth>http://devs.openttd.org/~alberth/010_whitespace_fixex_mostly.patch some white-space & other cleanup :)
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15:20<andythenorth>I'm never sure about whitespace in args etc
15:20<andythenorth>PEP-8 kind of doesn't guide much
15:22<@Alberth>this is mostly trailing white-space removal :)
15:22<andythenorth>ah
15:22<andythenorth>I can't get the patch to apply with p1 or -0
15:22<andythenorth>p0 *
15:22<@Alberth>-p1 should work
15:22<@Alberth>from the root of bandit
15:23<andythenorth>yup ok
15:23<andythenorth>works
15:23<@Alberth>a/misc/pixel_generator/gestalts/flat_trailer.py <- -p1 means "drop "a/"
15:24<@Alberth>and if you are in 'pixel_generator', -p3 should work :)
15:24<andythenorth>:)
15:26<@Alberth>ie it is just the number of directories stripped from the start
15:26<@Alberth>I thought you wanted to compute the numbers before going to the renderer
15:28<andythenorth>I found reasons that might not work
15:28<andythenorth>can't remember what
15:28-!-appe is now known as NGC3982
15:28<andythenorth>probably could have found a way around it, but this method seems to work fine
15:31<@Alberth>self.id = id doesn't seem very much used :) line 111 of flat_trailer.py
15:31<andythenorth>think it's redundant
15:32<andythenorth>yup
15:32-!-Zuu_ [~Zuu@h-114-141.a98.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #openttd
15:33<andythenorth>ah, I remember why I don't apply the transforms earlier
15:34<andythenorth>if colours are set by vars, the transforms will fail unless the colourset has been applied first
15:34*Zuu_ sends a great thank to the swap file of Vim. (managed to accidently hit the powerswitch of my computer :-p )
15:35<@Alberth>Bram does accept donations :)
15:35<bolli_>ouch Zuu..
15:35<@planetmaker>:-D
15:35<bolli_>i loathe Vim :P
15:35<@planetmaker>vim is great. If you have xterm only
15:35<@planetmaker>or for a quick edit
15:35<@Alberth>it is so much more useful than any other editor :)
15:36<bolli_>i just find it impossible to use...
15:36<@Alberth>bolli_: it is, for the first 2 months :)
15:36<bolli_>well, i don't have 2 months worth of patience :P
15:36<Zuu_>Also good for coding programs up to the size when you can keep their structure in mind.
15:36<andythenorth>hmm
15:36<@Alberth>but after that you are so much more productive
15:37<andythenorth>I could push the colourset into the sequence earlier in the pipeline
15:37<andythenorth>not sure much is gained though
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15:38<@Alberth>andythenorth: you indeed need to apply the colourset before transforming as far as I can see, but that is the case no matter when/where you apply the transformations
15:38-!-Zuu_ [~Zuu@h-114-141.a98.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
15:38<@Alberth>Zuu_: at an appropiate level of abstraction that always works :)
15:38-!-Zuu [~Zuu@h-114-141.a98.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #openttd
15:39<@Alberth>andythenorth: but what was the question now?
15:39<Zuu>So.., now I can pick up my work again with a fleet management GS :-)
15:39<@planetmaker>fleet managment GS?
15:40<andythenorth>Alberth: I thought you wanted to compute the numbers before going to the renderer <- you made me doubt my current method ;)
15:40<Zuu>A GS that will add or remove a train/truck for your line to adopt with the production changes when you are busy working on the network.
15:40<@Alberth>andythenorth: I just ask questions :p
15:41<andythenorth>I'm going to leave it as is for now - might change it later though
15:41<andythenorth>I'll try the coloursets patch first
15:41<@Alberth>Zuu: for all companies? great, finally the game can play itself :)
15:41<@Alberth>andythenorth: ok, bye
15:41<andythenorth>thanks ;)
15:42<@Alberth>yw
15:42<Zuu>Alberth: Yes, for all companies. But only for stations which has a special key in their name.
15:42*Alberth ponders making a trivial AI program :p
15:42<Zuu>Alberth: Why not?
15:42<Zuu>:-)
15:43<andythenorth>Alberth: make an AI generator ;)
15:43<@Alberth>pondering is much nicer than actually doing it :)
15:43<andythenorth>not always
15:43<andythenorth>sometimes the pondering is the hard part :(
15:43<andythenorth>code is relatively easy, it has rules
15:43<@Alberth>andy I am building enough generator at work atm
15:44<andythenorth>generator generator!
15:44<andythenorth>sorry :P
15:44<@Alberth>it does use meta-programming yes :D
15:44<@Alberth>and runs into Java limitations w.r.t. generics :)
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15:48<Rubidium>you mean not being able to add to Collection<? extends foo> ? ;)
15:49<@Alberth>more that new T[n] with T a type parameter not working :)
15:50<@Alberth>of course, that is because "Java generics are superior to C++ templates", according to oracle :)
15:51<bolli_>right...
15:51<bolli_>i have a noobish question now...
15:51<bolli_>i'm compiling in MS C++2008 and i'm getting errors...
15:51<andythenorth>Alberth: colourset patch makes sense
15:51<bolli_>the source is straight from SVN
15:52<bolli_>and i've included the bits that need it
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15:54<Rubidium>could you be more specific about "errors"
15:55<bolli_>mostly missing files...
15:55<bolli_>c:\users\sam\documents\openttd\source\s\src\language.h(17) : fatal error C1083: Cannot open include file: 'unicode/coll.h': No such file or directory
15:55<bolli_>..\src\heightmap.cpp(39) : fatal error C1083: Cannot open include file: 'png.h': No such file or directory
15:55<bolli_>that sort of thing...
15:55<Rubidium>sound like you haven't installed the "useful" package with all build dependencies
15:56<Rubidium>http://wiki.openttd.org/Microsoft_Visual_C%2B%2B_2008_Express_Editions
15:56<bolli_>i'm following that
15:57<bolli_>i've added the items into options -> VC++directories
15:58<@Alberth>andythenorth: I hve not tested it, but you can have an empty dict now
15:59<andythenorth>I'll test
15:59<Rubidium>bolli_: are you sure you set the right folders for the incude files?
15:59<bolli_>fairly...
15:59<bolli_>its probably me being stupid...
16:00<@Alberth>hmm, does "unload and leave empty" refuse to unload cargo at the station it was loaded from?
16:00<Rubidium>I can't really give in depth help as I'm not using Windows
16:00<andythenorth>well empty dict appears to fail correctly
16:00<andythenorth>i.e. vars in my sequence aren't substituted, so that blows up
16:01<bolli_>i prefer using Linux for jobs like this :p
16:01<bolli_>its just not always useful for playing it on windows...
16:01<bolli_>bah, bbl
16:01<@Alberth>andythenorth: well, you could do that before as well, of course, but you had two forms of 'colourset' which caused some confusion.
16:03<andythenorth>oh
16:03<andythenorth>oops
16:03-!-DDR [~chatzilla@d142-179-78-88.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #openttd
16:04<andythenorth>I think it's time to convert the other gestalts
16:04<andythenorth>I'm running out of 'todo' items :)
16:08<@Alberth>oh dear :)
16:08<Wolf01>'night
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16:10<@Alberth>andythenorth: I still need people / employees / benches / trashbins / trash / shops / stalls / rollercoaster sprites :)
16:11<andythenorth>mostly generatable :P
16:11<andythenorth>open theme park? :D
16:11<@planetmaker>FreeRCT
16:12<andythenorth>hmm
16:12<andythenorth>"open lotus turbo esprit" would be nice
16:12<andythenorth>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lotus_(series)
16:14<andythenorth>Alberth: got example art anywhere?
16:16<@Alberth>www.freerct.org, then redirect to the googlecode project trunk/sprites_src for what exists in the project
16:16<@Alberth>otherwise any RCT site :)
16:17<@Alberth>http://www.netc.org/classrooms@work/classrooms/middleteam/learning/rctable.html
16:18<andythenorth>Alberth: looks like it's using CGI models?
16:19<@Alberth>http://www.chrissawyergames.com/feature5.htm
16:20<@Alberth>so far it does yes
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16:21<@Alberth>andythenorth: there actually open source cars: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OScar_%28open_source_car%29
16:21<Elukka>heh, i've heard a bunch of people in various places say they wish there was an openttd equivalent for RCT
16:22<andythenorth>it could be time to get a 3D printer :P
16:22<@Alberth>Elukka: there are also people saying there should be an open source variant of locomotion
16:22<@Alberth>Elukka: point is that 'saying' is cheap. 'doing' is what counts.
16:23*andythenorth wonders if lomo sprites are 32bpp?
16:23<Elukka>i was saying there would be an audience for it
16:23<Elukka>people would like to play it
16:23*andythenorth goes back to doing - sprite generator
16:23<@Alberth>andythenorth: the engine is based on RCT2, so I'd doubt it
16:23<andythenorth>Elukka: you could be a sprite generator customer!
16:23*andythenorth is out to make a sale
16:24<@Alberth>Elukka: I would too, but there was none, so I ended up writing one first :p
16:24*andythenorth needs a bitmap loader class
16:24<andythenorth>which is probably vanilla PIL, apart from the bit to make it a sequence
16:24<@Alberth>PIL.Image ??? :)
16:24<andythenorth>see above :P
16:25<@Alberth>ideas to mark (0,0) ?
16:25<andythenorth>not sure yet
16:25<Elukka>andy: i could!
16:25<andythenorth>I'll see if it's actually a problem
16:25<Elukka>maybe
16:25<andythenorth>I don't mark 0,0 for a sequence either
16:25<andythenorth>it might just work
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16:26<andythenorth>I'm assuming I'll crop tightly first
16:26<andythenorth>RCT graphics are odd, some are really pretty, some are muddy
16:26<andythenorth>whereas lomo is just muddy
16:26<@Alberth>andythenorth: in the sequence you actually give the coords yourself :)
16:27<Elukka>lomo has an ugly palette
16:27<andythenorth>I'm assuming 0,0 is the top-left of the cropped image
16:27<Elukka>i like how RCT looks though
16:27<andythenorth>although that conflicts with how the renderer currently operates :|
16:27<andythenorth>ach - I'll try it and see
16:27<andythenorth>pondering ~= procrastination
16:27<@Alberth>andythenorth: perhaps it's a mix of manual and generated pixels
16:29<andythenorth>the mineshaft in this image sucks - whereas the large coaster is awesome http://www.chrissawyergames.com/feature5_11.htm
16:29<Rhamphoryncus>nmlc: "sprites/nml/industries/../templates/check_availability.pnml", line 32: Unrecognized identifier 'CB_RESULT_IND_PROBABILITY_FROM_PROPERTY' encountered
16:29<Rhamphoryncus>That's when I run make in firs
16:29<andythenorth>got nml tip?
16:30<Elukka>oh yeah some objects do look muddy
16:30<Rhamphoryncus>umm
16:30<Elukka>i see what you mean
16:30<Rhamphoryncus>I think I grabbed the stable
16:30<Rhamphoryncus>0.2.3
16:31<@Alberth>Rhamphoryncus: nml is moving quite fast
16:31<andythenorth>Rhamphoryncus: FIRS trunk tip builds for me with nml tip
16:31<Rhamphoryncus>alright
16:31<andythenorth>this is quite awesome: http://www.chrissawyergames.com/feature5_5.htm
16:32<andythenorth>is it RCT where you can kill the coaster riders?
16:32<andythenorth>or was that theme park?
16:33<TWerkhoven[l]>you mean drop in the water?
16:33<@Alberth>you can crash coasters
16:33<@Alberth>oh, dropping in the water is also deadly
16:33<andythenorth>go too fast, they fall out, iirc?
16:33<TWerkhoven[l]>think that was theme park
16:34<@Alberth>never seen that, but my coasters were always 'nice' to the public :)
16:34<@Alberth>and it does not sound like something I want to implement :p
16:35<Rhamphoryncus>That time it built. Thanks andy, Alberth
16:35<@Alberth>http://www.chrissawyergames.com/features.htm <-- there are a few more rct-topics
16:36<andythenorth>http://www.chrissawyergames.com/feature3.htm
16:37<andythenorth>the conversion of the 3D models to paletted sprites has not always gone well
16:37<andythenorth>I guess that's why some are muddy
16:37<Rhamphoryncus>Wait, RCT is still sprite-based?
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16:37<andythenorth>they're dithered from a limited palette, and are losing contrast
16:37<andythenorth>even lomo is sprite based isn't it?
16:37<Rhamphoryncus>That's.. very interesting.
16:39<@Alberth>Rhamphoryncus: 1 and 2 are
16:39<andythenorth>Alberth: does openrct have full 32bpp support?
16:39<@Alberth>and lomo too
16:39<andythenorth>seems that nice renders might be the way to go...
16:39<andythenorth>especially wrt capturing the original style
16:40<@Alberth>andythenorth: no idea, I program freerct :D but currently just 8bpp, just like the rct's
16:40<andythenorth>open / free /s :P
16:40<andythenorth>anyway /me is procrastinating and should write code
16:40<andythenorth>I found todo items :|
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16:40<Rhamphoryncus>rct is 8-bit too? o.O
16:41<andythenorth>are global constants allowed in python?
16:41<Rhamphoryncus>Geeze, I just assumed it was ugly because they chose that style *g*
16:41<Rhamphoryncus>andythenorth: yes, but they're really just module attributes. Not implicitly shared between modules
16:41<@Alberth>andythenorth: 32bpp is definitely an option
16:42<andythenorth>so I can't define a global in module a, import module a to module b and have my global just appear?
16:42<andythenorth>I have to use a.myglobal
16:42<@Alberth>Rhamphoryncus: CS is stuck to the same engine at every game he made
16:42<Rhamphoryncus>You can do "from a import myglobal", which is really just the same as "import a; myglobal = a.myglobal"
16:42<Rhamphoryncus>Alberth: huh
16:43<@Alberth>depends on the import, but generally it is recommended to include the module name when referencing imported symbols
16:43<andythenorth>Rhamphoryncus: in which case I don't need to declare is global :P
16:43<andythenorth>I'll reference the module name
16:44<@Alberth>Rhamphoryncus: the ttdx / rct / lomo engines are all the same, just with some evolutionary (small) steps
16:44<Rhamphoryncus>andythenorth: if you actually mean a constant then this is fine. If it's something like an int then you're making copies of the variable and modifying one won't update the other
16:44<Rhamphoryncus>Alberth: *nods*
16:44<andythenorth>I do mean a constant
16:44<@Alberth>constants do not exist
16:45<@Alberth>just variables that you never assign
16:45<andythenorth>I don't mean a constant
16:45<andythenorth>:P
16:45<andythenorth>SPRITEROW_HEIGHT = 40 is same everywhere
16:45<andythenorth>defining it in every gestalt file seems obviously silly :)
16:45<@Alberth>you can do from a import * which dumps all global names of a into the module doing the import
16:45<Zuu>If you clone a vehicle that belongs to a group, is the clone automatically added to the same group?
16:46<@Alberth>Zuu: tias :)
16:46<andythenorth>I'm just using it now as common.SPRITEROW_HEIGHT in my code
16:46<andythenorth>and importing common
16:46<Zuu>Alberth: tias?
16:46<andythenorth>then it's obvious where it originates
16:46<@Alberth>that is much saner w.r.t. maintenance
16:46<@Alberth>Zuu: try it and see
16:46<Rhamphoryncus>Yeah, you can use "from a import *". That's generally frowned upon because it makes it hard to track down where a variable comes from
16:46<Rhamphoryncus>But if you had, say, a constants module, it wouldn't be as bad
16:47<@Alberth>not to mention overwriting other names without warning etc
16:47<Rhamphoryncus>(also less likely to produce silent name conflicts)
16:47<Rhamphoryncus>^_^
16:47<andythenorth>python mostly tells you the answer once you try something
16:47<andythenorth>mostly
16:47<@Alberth>:)
16:48<Zuu>Great it works. Then I don't have to figure out where the API function to add a vehicle to a group is hidden.
16:48<Rhamphoryncus>Hmm. Learning FIRS/nml by browsing a random file feels like learning how a car works by examining a seat buckle
16:49<@Alberth>good night all
16:49<andythenorth>Rhamphoryncus: it's an order of magnitude less complex than openttd ;)
16:49<andythenorth>bye Alberth
16:49<@planetmaker>g'night Alberth
16:49<@Alberth>but there are more random files to browse :p
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16:50<andythenorth>Rhamphoryncus: currently there is a small deficit - I don't know how FIRS works either ;)
16:51<Rhamphoryncus>LOL
16:51<andythenorth>I can tell you the structure of the set though
16:51<Rhamphoryncus>The use of CPP spells doom
16:51<andythenorth>and I can reverse engineer the code
16:51<Rhamphoryncus>(doomy doomy doom)
16:51<andythenorth>I just don't *know* how it works
16:52<Rhamphoryncus>You take one piece, figure it out, make the changes, then forget again?
16:52<andythenorth>no
16:52<andythenorth>I make the changes I can make, release, and wait for other people to work on it ;)
16:52<Rhamphoryncus>heh
16:52<andythenorth>I keep intending to learn how it works
16:53*Rhamphoryncus feels like he took the bait
16:53<andythenorth>but the road to hell is paved with good intentions etc :P
16:54<@Yexo>Rhamphoryncus: if you want to learn NML than FIRS is not a good example
16:54<@Yexo>it's a very cool project, but not easy to learn from
16:54<Rhamphoryncus>Yexo: I want to improve FIRS
16:54<Rhamphoryncus>and I'm insane
16:54<@Yexo>in that case you should still start with a general NML tutorial
16:54<@Yexo>get a feel for how it all works, than dive in the FIRS code
16:54<Rhamphoryncus>probably
16:54<frosch123>oh, just noticed... i am featured on google today :)
16:55<Rhamphoryncus>wha?
16:55<andythenorth>lol at frosch123 :)
16:55<andythenorth>Rhamphoryncus: the nml aspects of FIRS are straightforward
16:56<andythenorth>and you're working with industry production code which is also straightforward
16:56<andythenorth>you know how CPP variadic macros work?
16:57<Rhamphoryncus>Well I have used and written t hem.
16:57<andythenorth>ok, you're all set then
16:57<Rhamphoryncus>Didn't say I knew how they work ;)
16:58<Rhamphoryncus>Wait, I can't copy you, I have to understand it myself!
16:58<andythenorth>as long as you recognise them, it's fine
16:58<andythenorth>you kind of need to know the newgrf industry spec
16:59<andythenorth>but that's available
16:59<andythenorth>specifically you want to read about the production cb
16:59*Rhamphoryncus nods
17:00<@planetmaker>called produce
17:00<andythenorth>then you just need check_primary_production_level.pnml
17:00<andythenorth>and produce_primary.pnml
17:00<@planetmaker>uhm... for supplies?
17:00<@planetmaker>that's secondary
17:01<andythenorth>for input?
17:02<@planetmaker>production of a secondary depends surely on its input
17:02<@planetmaker>but check_primary_production_level is geared towards primary industries
17:02<@planetmaker>as is produce_primary
17:02<andythenorth>oh
17:02*andythenorth is confused
17:02<andythenorth>where are supplies handled now?
17:03<@planetmaker>hm... sorry, I'm confused
17:03<@planetmaker>:-)
17:03<@planetmaker>You#re of course right: Primaries DO consume the supplies
17:03<@planetmaker>not secondaries
17:03<@planetmaker>sorry :-)
17:03<andythenorth>np :)
17:04<andythenorth>Rhamphoryncus: you'll need to know about the various FIRS parameters for primaries as well
17:05<andythenorth>meh
17:05<andythenorth>is there ever a case for using the windows palette?
17:05<Rhamphoryncus>This is nml with CPP macros wrapped around it? So I'll need to ask here about the syntax, not look in the nml tutorial?
17:06<@planetmaker>andythenorth: there's no case (anymore) for it
17:06<@planetmaker>it's purely hysterical raisins
17:06<@Yexo>the cpp preprocessor is run over it first to create firs.nml, which is then parsed by the nml compiler to firs.grf
17:06<andythenorth>the brittrains project appears to be using windows palette
17:06<@Yexo>andythenorth: ttdpatch users with a windows base set
17:06<andythenorth>I might give them the good news
17:06<Rhamphoryncus>Yexo: *nods*
17:06<@Yexo>but nml 0.3 is not compatible with that
17:07<@planetmaker>:-)
17:07<@planetmaker>it's not compatible with that in many ways
17:07<@Yexo>or rather: ttdpatch is not compatible with the grfs produced by nml ;P
17:07<@planetmaker>hehe :-)
17:07<andythenorth>DOS palette is now default for ottd?
17:07<@planetmaker>yes
17:07<@planetmaker>internally all windows paletted newgrfs are converted to DOS prior to use
17:08<@Yexo>actually that's not 100% true
17:09<andythenorth>before I do something stupid - this looks like the DOS palette? http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/2458/palette_key.png
17:09<@Yexo>openttd's internal palette is neither the newgrf dos palette nor the newgrf windows palette
17:09<@Yexo>andythenorth: I always use this page as reference: http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/PalettesAndCoordinates#Palettes
17:09<frosch123>where do we still differ?
17:09<@Yexo>so yes, that looks like the dos palette
17:09<@Yexo>frosch123: oh, it's now completely the same?
17:10<frosch123>i think we are completely dos
17:10<frosch123>except maybe for the undefined bits
17:10<frosch123>i.e. dos has only 6 bits per colour channel, while we use 8
17:11<frosch123>so the hue is slightly different for some
17:11<frosch123>including the grey scale
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17:14<Rhamphoryncus>©2011 Derp
17:15<andythenorth>Rhamphoryncus: for the code you're trying to change, you can apply 'iceberg'
17:15<Rhamphoryncus>NFO is not a programming language because it's hex editing? Errr..
17:15<andythenorth>90% of FIRS you don't need to worry about ;)
17:16<@Yexo>Rhamphoryncus: who says that?
17:16<andythenorth>^^ where did you get that witty line?
17:16<Rhamphoryncus>http://www.tt-wiki.net/wiki/NMLTutorial/NML_Syntax
17:17<andythenorth>oh well
17:17<andythenorth>foobar is mostly write, he just slipped up there for once ;)
17:17<andythenorth>write / right
17:17<Rhamphoryncus>Speaking of hex editing, I should report a bug against NARS: the grasshopper is bugged. It doesn't have the 65535 HP I remember from railroad tycoon ;)
17:18<andythenorth>see what pikka says about that :P
17:18*andythenorth has procrastinated brilliantly this evening
17:18<Rhamphoryncus>I can't be the only one that did that, can I?
17:19<Rubidium>andythenorth: there are many more in this channel that have succeeded better in procrastination
17:19<Rubidium>they even postponed writing something here
17:19<Rubidium>*if* only they would have postponed joining the channel ;)
17:19<andythenorth>:P
17:20<andythenorth>how hard can this code business be anyway?
17:20*andythenorth tries
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17:29<frosch123>i guess most in here are busy with porting ottd to a web browser
17:31<Rhamphoryncus>frosch123: they have to port it to pascal first, then write a pascal to python compiler, then use pypy to compile that to javascript
17:32<Rhamphoryncus>(I think pypy dropped that feature, so it'll have to be revived)
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17:38<andythenorth>is this evil? 'tank_colour#-1' < then split('#') to get a var which evaluates to a number, the second part of the split being then added to the number
17:38<Rhamphoryncus>yes :)
17:38<andythenorth>so (-4, 4, 'tank_colour', -2),
17:38<andythenorth>is better
17:39<andythenorth>where the last element is the shift
17:39<andythenorth>and it's optional
17:39<Rhamphoryncus>Evil will always triumph because good is dumb
17:39*andythenorth hates lucky dip tuples and lists
17:39<andythenorth>tell me what those numbers mean
17:39<andythenorth>or where I should document it :P
17:39<Rhamphoryncus>I'd use a class
17:39<Rhamphoryncus>Foo('tank_colour#-1') is okay
17:40<Rhamphoryncus>Of course Foo('tank_colour', -1) works just as well
17:40<andythenorth>hmm
17:40<andythenorth>you took the words out of my mouth :P
17:41<andythenorth>this definitely smells (-4, 4, 'tank_colour', -2)
17:41<andythenorth>and so would a dict
17:41<Rhamphoryncus>And if tank_colour is meant to refer to a variable, not a constant, then have it stash the name 'tank_colour' and look it up later
17:41<Rhamphoryncus>yeah
17:41<andythenorth>that would help a lot actually
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17:42<Rhamphoryncus>If it's a colour *reference* then treat it as a reference
17:42<andythenorth>it's a var, evaluated at render time
17:43<andythenorth>hence why it's string, not var :P
17:43<Rhamphoryncus>heh
17:43<andythenorth>I use it as a dict key
17:43<andythenorth>but it's stinky
17:43<Rhamphoryncus>the name? With the -2?
17:44<andythenorth>the -2 is applied to whatever the result is from the lookup
17:44<Rhamphoryncus>ah
17:44<andythenorth>colourset['tank_colour'] - 2
17:44<andythenorth>or so
17:44<Rhamphoryncus>I was going to say it's easy to make a class usable as a dict key
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17:45<andythenorth>that I had to do this also smelt funny
17:45<andythenorth> if len(i) >= 4:
17:45<andythenorth> colourshift = i[3]
17:45<andythenorth>when evaluating tuples that may not have the shift value
17:45<Rhamphoryncus>eww, yes :)
17:45<andythenorth>an object can do it cleanly
17:45<Rhamphoryncus>ayup
17:46<andythenorth>tomorrow's problem
17:46<andythenorth>or today's problem, deferred :p
17:46<valhallasw>andythenorth: the 'pythonic' version would be try: colourshift = i[3] except IndexError: colourshift = 0
17:46<Rhamphoryncus>Eh, exceptions are overrated for that stuff
17:46<andythenorth>yup
17:46<valhallasw>yeah, I don't find it much clearer
17:46<andythenorth>by moving this to an object, I can also get rid of:
17:46<andythenorth> try:
17:46<andythenorth> point.colour + 1
17:47<Rhamphoryncus>It's easier to ask forgiveness than ask permission.. except when permission is easier.
17:47<valhallasw>if would be nice to have the dict version
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17:47<valhallasw>{}.get('a', 'b') = 'b'
17:47<valhallasw>or getdefault, I always forget which one is which
17:47<andythenorth>setdefault is my favourite
17:47<andythenorth>'the oddly named method'
17:48<valhallasw>ah yea, that one. list = data.setdefault('key', [])
17:48<andythenorth>as it doesn't actually set anything but the value returned
17:48<andythenorth>iirc
17:48<andythenorth>dict remains unmodified
17:48<valhallasw>no
17:48<valhallasw>if data['key'] exists, it's equivalent to list = data['key']
17:48<frosch123>night
17:48<valhallasw>if it doesn't exist, it's equivalent to list = data['key'] = <given value>
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17:49<andythenorth>moi aussi
17:49<andythenorth>-> bed
17:49<andythenorth>good night
17:49<Rhamphoryncus>cya andy
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18:24<Nat_aS>hey I have a question
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18:31<Zuu>@get 3
18:31<@DorpsGek>Zuu: Don't ask to ask, just ask
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18:32<Nat_aS>oh yeah
18:33<Nat_aS>sorry bout that, anyways, how does the upgrade order in the veichile list work?
18:33<Nat_aS>when does it take effect?
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18:33<Nat_aS>can it be forced?
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18:33<Nat_aS>I like to feel like I am doing things myself, but doing it by hand is really complicated
18:34<Zuu>If you have added a replacement order, you can then select to send all vehicles to depot if you want to enforce it.
18:34<Nat_aS>is there a minimum ballance for it to work?
18:34<Zuu>However, all vehicles that are in subject for replacement will visit their depot as soon as it gets there.
18:34<Nat_aS>like it wont spend more than half your money?
18:35<Zuu>So usually it is not a good idea to force all vehicles to depot as that will include also vehicles with no replace order.
18:35<Zuu>Yes, there is one in advanced settings.
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18:55<Rhamphoryncus>planetmaker: Can I bounce something off you regarding farmsup/engsup?
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---Logclosed Thu Mar 01 00:00:27 2012