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#openttd IRC Logs for 2012-03-02

---Logopened Fri Mar 02 00:00:27 2012
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00:31*andythenorth ponders "from foo import *"
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01:08<andythenorth>nap time
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02:44<andythenorth>I blame Eddi|zuHause
02:44<andythenorth>extra angles look good
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03:34*Rhamphoryncus waves to andythenorth
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04:28<@planetmaker>that's something new, I think... two people replying "sorry, I'm happy with your sprites, but will only be interested, if GPL"
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04:46-!-|2rB is now known as Twofish
04:47<@peter1138>silly windows
04:47<@peter1138>i'm seeing event log entries for "The system time was changed."
04:47<@peter1138>where the previous and new time are the same
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04:55<Rubidium>I reckon the do settime(); oldtime = gettime(); newtime = gettime(); ;)
04:58<@peter1138>i suspect it was changed by a sub-second amount
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05:51<dihedral>who else needs my active directory password
05:55<Eddi|zuHause>what? i only see *****
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06:24<blathijs>dihedral: Perhaps you could also paste your Paypal password? ;-)
06:52<MNIM>while you're at it, your bank account and PIN?
06:54<xiong>If anyone's interested, I stumbled on the full solution to the problem with trains making station stops refusing to reverse through another platform, with or without depoting during the reverse.
06:54*SpComb wonders who Thomas Hof is
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06:56<xiong>The stopping trains were abusing the tracks intended for through traffic, avoiding the pf penalty for passing through a platform -- which turns out to be quite high since it is per-tile -- even to the point of exiting the station in the wrong direction, turning around somewhere else, and taking the through track.
06:58<xiong>Finally I built platforms on the through tracks *but* for another, dummy station. This imposes an equal penalty so the stopping trains are willing to pass a normal platform to exit; through trains can use a station platform if they must to avoid a blocking train on the through track; and stopping trains won't stupidly stop on the through "platform", tying it up.
07:14<@peter1138>by-nc-nd o_O
07:16<@peter1138>i guess he saw it on CC and thought it must be a good idea then...
07:17<@peter1138>"nd"... how silly
07:18<@planetmaker>nd scenarios are better ;-)
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07:27<Ammler>well, bananas does also suggest it...
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07:35<@planetmaker>ho, Illegal_Alien
07:44<Illegal_Alien>Who me?
07:44*andythenorth is finding 32bpp stuff worryingly appealing
07:46<Illegal_Alien>Aw need a hug?
07:46<@planetmaker>andythenorth: yeah... now that it became easy to use and create... I like it much better :-)
07:46*planetmaker hugs andythenorth
07:47<andythenorth>I am worried that this is like when Lego changed from 4-wide trucks to 6-wide :P
07:47<andythenorth>it loses some character...but gains lots of detail
07:48<andythenorth>and looks good
07:48<@planetmaker>well. What character is lost?
07:48<Illegal_Alien>I am more worried about the fact i want to buy Mindstorm set and put it in my awsome 8448 of lego :)
07:48<@planetmaker>It is *another* character or style
07:50*Illegal_Alien goes back to the Locomotion Cave
07:53<Illegal_Alien>Cave is a bit dark
07:53<@planetmaker>torches might help
07:53<Ammler>well, you forgot the light yourself
07:53<@planetmaker>or the headlights of trains
07:54<Ammler>also if you enter a nd cave, be aware it will close behind you
07:55<andythenorth>which would you rather have?
07:55<Ammler>you will never ever again see light :-P
07:55<andythenorth>^ the correct answer is both :D
07:55<andythenorth>but they don't go together well :(
07:57<Illegal_Alien>Hmm a closing cave, intresting idea
07:58<Illegal_Alien>Ah well, Locomotion keeps his sprites then :P
07:59<@planetmaker>a pity actually
07:59<@planetmaker>those models could really get nice exposure
08:00*planetmaker really wonders what makes people use ND in this "business"
08:00<@planetmaker>re-inventing the wheel seems to be the way to go... :S
08:01<@planetmaker>is fame somewhat "diluted" by making open-source?
08:03<dihedral>blathijs> dihedral: Perhaps you could also paste your Paypal password? ;-) <- fish
08:03<andythenorth>maybe we should stop trying to persuade about GPL
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08:04<dihedral>hehe - make GPL the only option :-P
08:04<Illegal_Alien>I dont know why they dont want it, but i have to respect there decisions and they want to have it to be a ND. And to bad the ND part is the part who stops this.
08:04<andythenorth>dihedral: yes, I wasn't thinking of dropping the GPL
08:04<andythenorth>just stop being nice about it ;)
08:04<@planetmaker>dihedral: when I work on it, it kinda is...
08:05<andythenorth>the only reason I'm not really brutal about it is....well I don't like getting flamed back for one
08:05<andythenorth>and for the other, people like Pikka and MB won't use GPL, and they have a lot of kudos
08:06<@planetmaker>they'd not loose any, if they made their work future-proof, though
08:06<andythenorth>their choice though, and at least they're making it in an informed way :P
08:06<andythenorth>unlike some
08:06<andythenorth>I am minorly irritated by discussion of 'licensing hassles'
08:07<andythenorth>they are only hassles when someone *doesn't* use the fricking GPL
08:07<blathijs>dihedral: also:
08:07<@planetmaker>well, the base for that fortunately grows in newgrf domain :-)
08:09<dihedral>lol blathijs
08:09<@planetmaker>andythenorth: but you got about the same amount of kudos ;-)
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08:10<dihedral>funnily enough it only happens to me when i switch desktops to one that has a fullscreen rdp session running and need to enter my password :-P
08:10<dihedral>thankfully it's only the AD user that has this password :-P
08:10<andythenorth>planetmaker I have to keep it in reserve - as I need to use it to say 'sorry' quite often :P
08:11<@planetmaker>hu, what do you mean, andythenorth?
08:12<@planetmaker>'sorry' in what respect?
08:12<andythenorth>when I go too far
08:13<andythenorth>which happens
08:13<andythenorth>cargo classes, inappropriate commits, early releases, breaking the repo, getting into arguments with SAC, giving people incorrect information etc
08:14<andythenorth>also constantly demanding features and pointing out flaws in the work of others
08:14*Illegal_Alien got an axe for such people
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08:15<andythenorth>ho ho DanMacK
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08:18*DanMacK yawns
08:18<DanMacK>it's too early... lol
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08:19<Pikka>24000! \o/
08:20<Pikka>hassalotta revisions :)
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08:20<Pikka>hello Illegal_Alien and andythenorth
08:20<andythenorth>DanMacK + Pikka at once
08:20<andythenorth>I claim my prize
08:20<Pikka>you are andythenorth and I claim my 10 FISH
08:20*DanMacK claims the CHIPS
08:20<Illegal_Alien>Fisj yummie
08:20<Illegal_Alien>*Fisj even
08:21<andythenorth>Illegal_Alien: got any rendered ship sprites that are GPL?
08:21<andythenorth>and don't have tiny obfuscated detail when rasterised to 8bpp?
08:22<andythenorth>ho hey
08:22<Pikka>tiny obfuscated detail is the best kind of detail!
08:22<andythenorth>obfuscated to 0 pixels is best
08:22<Pikka>all those antenna fins on my av8 aircraft, lol
08:23*andythenorth creates a 'AddGreeble' plugin for pixa
08:23<andythenorth>and a 'ObfuscateGreeble' plugin that runs straight after it in the pipeline :P
08:26<Illegal_Alien>I dont have any GPL sprites. And all the other sprites have that license i linked too. (Well its more like; i can make the Loco + Ottd sprites / .dats/grf`s but no-one else is allowed to change them.) As agreed with the model owners. And i think i no sense make with this sentence.
08:26*andythenorth will actually next be coding 'generate load sprites to all needed lengths'
08:26<andythenorth>steel coils, logs etc
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08:45<spongie>Hi guys. Im reading the newgrf specs and found that you can set action2 to a variationalaction2, in it I see the signal bits (variable 10) where bit 9 adds a "programmed" flag. Is this currently in use?
08:46<spongie>I also read on the feature request that there is a patch (i guess to simulate the TTD programmable signals), but it's not yet commited to openttd etc.
08:47<spongie>basically I'm looking for a way to do two things 1) if the signal just after a station is red, then the train shouldn't leave the station, but instead remain in loading state. (theres no point in leaving the station if theres nowhere to go) and 2) show red if the train has a certain charecteristic (group, name, type or size).
08:48<Pikka>none of that is implemented in openttd yet spongie, no.
08:48<spongie>I'm guessing theres no way of getting such signal behavior from a newgrf anyway.
08:48<spongie>ah, right.
08:48<spongie>what is the status / desire to get this in?
08:49<spongie>i was thinking of making a simple "conditional signal"
08:50<spongie>i havent played the original TTD so I have no idea how those programmable signals work.
08:50<@planetmaker>original TTD has no programmable signals
08:51<spongie>oh. i thought i read somewhere that it does.
08:51<@planetmaker>TTD has only the plain and blunt block signals
08:51<spongie>in some feature comparison
08:52<@planetmaker>OpenTTD can do everything TTD could or can do. And way more
08:52<@planetmaker>you might have seen a comparison with TTD_Patch_
08:52<@planetmaker>that's a big difference
08:52<spongie>is this the current development of ?
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08:53<@planetmaker>that's more than two years old...
08:54<@planetmaker>the problem with programmable signals is the UI
08:54<@planetmaker>it needs a good way to visualize what the signals do
08:54<@planetmaker>opening a programming box for each of the quadrillion signals is... not a good choice
08:54<@planetmaker>And nothing in this respect has afaik ever been even tried
08:55<Pikka>except in TTDPatch :)
08:56<spongie>I don't think there's a need to add advanced programming, something like a simplified "conditional signal" would be enough
08:56<spongie>some predifined tests.
08:56<@planetmaker>it won't run here, but by what I heart you have to check there on each signal
08:56<@planetmaker>spongie: we have conditional orders...
08:56<spongie>like "group selector"
08:57<spongie>lemme fire up openttd
08:57<Pikka>planetmaker: yes. but it's not like you ever wanted to program every signal
08:57<@planetmaker>Indeed. I didn't want to
08:58<Pikka>so it's not like "each of the quadrillion signals" needs a programming box.
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08:59<@planetmaker>well. That's what it needs, though
08:59<Pikka>maybe I'm misunderstanding :)
09:00<@planetmaker>you can't say that you got solved the UI issue for programmable signals when it sucks majorly after you added 10
09:00<spongie>is there a way to add new conditions to the order?
09:00<spongie>like for instance, continue loading until no more cargo is available AND the next signal is green
09:01<Pikka>surely you'd open one signal at a time, like train orders, planetmaker?
09:01<@planetmaker>Pikka: that's surely a pain, if you want to really then understand how your network works
09:01<@planetmaker>so indeed, I don't consider that a good option
09:02<@planetmaker>Usually I might wonder why train XY ended up in place C
09:02<spongie>id like to add signal checks and train charecteristics checks
09:02<@planetmaker>currently it suffices to know where the tracks go and at the train orders
09:03<@planetmaker>sometimes the signaling is important, but you see how they work by their sprite
09:03<@planetmaker>that is totally lost with programmable signals
09:03<Pikka>programmable signals would have their own sprite
09:03<@planetmaker>thus you need to look at the train, the overall track and EVERY signal
09:03<@planetmaker>yes. But the sprite doesn't indicate how it works
09:03<spongie>conditional orders sounds like a good bet
09:03<Pikka>but you'd see the one programmable signal on the route and say "hmm". :)
09:04<@planetmaker>yep. And then I say 'hm' a hundret times ;-)
09:04<spongie>planetmaker: why would you use the programmable signals that much if you didnt like em? :)
09:04<spongie>(and found them useful)
09:04<Pikka>only if you've used programmable signals in a ridiculous way, in which case you deserve what you get :P
09:05<@planetmaker>spongie: it's not that I don't like them. But I don't like to debug other people games when they complain "my train doesn't do what it's supposed to do. Your path finder is broken"
09:05<@planetmaker>that'd end up at my feet. Not yours
09:05<spongie>just say "the pathfinder is fiiiiiiiiine" and have a drink
09:06<spongie>i recommend jameson, its what im having right now
09:06<@planetmaker>"NewGRFs cannot be changed." And then I have a drink. Mostly works
09:06<Pikka>well, you don't care enough about people doing stupid things with signals then complaining to remove the presignals ;)
09:06<@planetmaker>Pikka: but adding that complexity w/o proper interface leaves a bad impression
09:06<@planetmaker>"doesn't work" will be the perception. And that's not good nor helpful
09:07<spongie>but guys, what do you think about my idea about not having the train exit load/unload state before the first exit signal from the station is green
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09:07<spongie>planetmaker: works for microsoft and apple ;)
09:07<@planetmaker>what is an 'exit signal'?
09:07<spongie>planetmaker: well my mistake. clumbsy.
09:07<spongie>any signal
09:07<spongie>i meant the first signal in the path from station
09:07<@planetmaker>even if it goes in the wrong direction?
09:08<@planetmaker>even if it's 20 tiles away?
09:08<spongie>no. and i guess a pbs wont work well either
09:08<spongie>yes to that
09:08<@planetmaker>what distance should it cover / wait in the station?
09:08<@planetmaker>what about A <--> B without signal?
09:08<spongie>guess it wouldnt exit
09:08<@planetmaker>touble-tracked, two trains
09:08<spongie>how can you even do that?
09:08<@planetmaker>one path signal somewhere
09:08<@planetmaker>would work
09:08<@planetmaker>without crash
09:09<spongie>ok, how about checking just the tile immediately after the station
09:09<spongie>if theres no tile no check
09:09<spongie>if theres no signal on the tile taht is
09:09<spongie>WOHOO JAMESON, kicking my ass in the early afternoon
09:09<@planetmaker>whatabout not adding that complexity?
09:09<@planetmaker>it's unobvious
09:10<spongie>planetmaker: perhaps. but it makes little sense for a train to leave the station only to wait at the end tile of the station
09:10<spongie>(or half a tile outside, or whatever it is)
09:10<@planetmaker>It doesn't know the signal is red. It might even change state between starting and stopping there
09:10<@planetmaker>It might be able to reserve a path or not
09:10<spongie>which is why i want my trains to wait until it has a green one
09:10<@planetmaker>you might modify the track or not
09:10<spongie>pbs' dont work, thats true
09:11<@planetmaker>yeah. It has green and then turns to red --> waits there ater driving 2px
09:11<spongie>the alternative would be to have the option to add a signal on the station itself
09:11<spongie>perhaps each station could have an implicit pbs like depots
09:11<@planetmaker>the better alternative is to have signals between tiles ;-)
09:12<spongie>it sucks seeing a train being a fraction of a tile off the station meanwhile cargo is piling up
09:13<@planetmaker>use 'full load' orders
09:13<spongie>planetmaker: i could use a percentage perhaps
09:13<spongie>but do you get what im getting at? :)
09:14<@planetmaker>that's a completely different 3rd thing, though
09:15<spongie>what is?
09:15<@planetmaker>"leave station after loading X%"
09:15<spongie>yeah, it was just a sidenote
09:15<spongie>it wouldnt be as effective as "load until a green light"
09:15<spongie>an implicit pbs from stations would fix it.
09:15<Mark>spongie: That would be awesome.
09:16<spongie>spongie: oh. i thought i was just rambling. cool.
09:17<spongie>i usually use signals to space out the trains so they arrive evenly, but when theyre stuck in that state of leaving the station only to get stuck on the next tile with a red signal i feel sorry for the commuters. :(
09:17<@planetmaker>many things would be nice
09:18<Mark>I wonder if that is applicable.
09:18<@planetmaker>like "don't leave the station when signal is not green" implies at leas modification to the path finder
09:18<spongie>Mark: yeah, im investigating a bit, but i havent found any way for newgrf to support adding a signal to the station
09:18<@planetmaker>which is a whole can of worms ;-)
09:18<Mark>spongie: Mkay.
09:18<spongie>planetmaker: what about adding a signal to the station?
09:18<spongie>like with depots
09:19<spongie>hmm. ofcourse, trains are not in the depot when waiting for free path...
09:19<@planetmaker>and adding signals is not a NewGRF thing. It needs changing core parts of path finders
09:19<@planetmaker>a can of worms _I_ will avoid to open
09:21<@planetmaker>of course everyone is welcome to open it and implement it :-)
09:21<spongie>yeah but does it make sense?
09:21<@planetmaker>I think signals at tile borders makes more sense
09:21<spongie>may be a condition for the load thingy could suffice
09:21<@planetmaker>you'd get that for free
09:22<spongie>planetmaker: but how to tell the train not to quit the load/unload state
09:22<@planetmaker>I don't
09:22<@planetmaker>that's another thing
09:22<spongie>so... many... things.
09:23<@planetmaker>a load order like "load up to X% of the capacity" probably could be done already now
09:24<@planetmaker>though it'd be a minimum amount
09:28<spongie>planetmaker: doesnt it exist already?
09:29<spongie>jump when load percentage is <cmp> to <num>
09:29<@planetmaker>That's a drive order, not a load order
09:30<spongie>i didnt think about that.
09:30<spongie>oh, i also saw an inverse signal
09:30<spongie>is that availble?
09:30<spongie>(in the varaction2 variable 10 bits)
09:32<@planetmaker>what is an inverse signal?
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09:33<spongie>planetmaker: its a bit you can set in the variable 10 of varactions2
09:33<spongie>im not sure
09:33<Belugas> R
09:33<Belugas> I
09:33<Belugas> D
09:33<Belugas> A
09:34<Belugas> Y
09:34<Mark>It's friay, friday.
09:34<spongie>yay, let the drinking continue
09:34<Belugas>hoo... so that is why your called spongie:)
09:34<Belugas>makes sens ;)
09:34<spongie>im a sponge
09:35<spongie>its my in game nick also
09:35<spongie>and github account
09:36<@planetmaker>spongie: you should read the introduction section of the VarAction2 for signals again
09:36<@planetmaker>especially the 1st sentence
09:41<spongie>planetmaker: ahhh
09:42<spongie>do you guys have a good design for a load balancer for a multi track mainline?
09:42<spongie>all the ones ive seen online have some minor issues
09:43<spongie>path signals for instance seem to have a built-in delay even though the next signal is green. this has to do with the penalty calculation of the lookahead, i suspect
09:43<Pikka>hello Belugas
09:44<spongie>it seems the path signal ones start zigzagging, the presignal examples i found online have a flaw when one train starts making the shift, but another speeding train beats it to the punch
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09:49<Belugas>sir Pikka!
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09:49<Belugas>hello, been a while :D how's life?
09:49<spongie>hm. guess the tunnel one works ok
09:49<Pikka>fine fine :)
09:49<Pikka>trying to get all my grfs finished for 1.2 :P
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09:50<Belugas>looks like "fun"
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09:52<Pikka>definitely :P
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09:57<spongie>do you guys play online on the public servers?
09:59<Belugas>me? don't play anymore. Some chords here and there not to loose touch, but that's it
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10:01<dihedral>pitty that :-(
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10:05<Pikka>we'll have to have a ukrs2 et al game when 1.2 comes out! :D
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10:11<Belugas>just wait for the basement to be done >:-)
10:14<andythenorth>April 1!
10:14*andythenorth will not finish grfs by then :|
10:15<Pikka>well, you haven't been working on them for as long as I have :P
10:16<andythenorth>eez true
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10:34<Rubidium>oh noh... andy's already asking about extra extra zoom?
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10:57<@planetmaker>hi Terkhen
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11:03<andythenorth>hola Terkhen
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11:25<andythenorth>4x zoom + ctrl-b = win
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11:39<andythenorth>bounding box
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11:44<MNIM>ahah, what does that do?
11:46<Illegal_Alien>Makes a box?
11:46<TWerkhoven[l]>tron-style overlay?
11:46<TWerkhoven[l]>you see all boxes round engines and wagons and everything else
11:51<Pikka>oh no
11:51*Pikka adding fmsp to TaI D;
11:52<Pikka>it's still not as complicated as FIRS though :D
11:53<Pikka> on reflection, ordering by cargo was possibly not the clearest way of doing it, but... *shrugs*
11:53<Pikka>now I just have to get this done by april 1st too. D;
11:56<andythenorth>how are you going to close your furnaces? or aren't you?
11:57<Pikka>the dates are the dates they can be built
11:57<MNIM>shouldn't 'gasworks' be 'glassworks'?
11:57<andythenorth>gasworks ftw :)
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11:58<andythenorth>I have some source images in my FIRS folder for gas works
11:58<andythenorth>like this
11:59<Pikka>so things like the gasworks and furnaces won't automatically close, but - because they have small stockpiles, for one thing - players will tend to stop servicing them if there's a newer power station or refinery nearby.
11:59<Pikka>I have a "powerhouse" already drawn
11:59<Pikka>just gotta add the gasometers :D
11:59<Pikka>(and make a gasometer town building too!)
12:00<Pikka>andy, more like
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12:08*andythenorth hates dealing with offsets and vehicle lengths
12:08<andythenorth>articulated trucks are apparently an impossible case :P
12:08<andythenorth>or the nml template needs adjusting
12:13<andythenorth>or I'm a dumb dumb
12:13<andythenorth>no point blaming the template when you're using the wrong one
12:13<andythenorth>today's moral: don't test graphics while feeding a toddler pasta
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12:22<MNIM>how did you come to that wond'rous discovery?
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12:33<_maddy>hi all, anyone up for coop multiplayer?
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12:34*MNIM snickers andythenorth.
12:35<@Yexo>you fed the baby graphics while testing the pasta? :p
12:36<andythenorth>I screwed up the graphics while failing to feed the baby correctly :|
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13:11<Illegal_Alien>I like the add "rough tracks"
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13:22<NGC3982>what the
13:22<NGC3982>it actually rerailed and railed on another track?
13:23<MNIM>or it ran over a moving switch
13:23<MNIM>and one bogey got switched and the other didn;t
13:24<NGC3982>ah, i see.
13:24<NGC3982>most likely
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13:27<andythenorth>picked the switch
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13:28*andythenorth wonders how to generate log sprites
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13:30<xiong>Mazur, hey!
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13:32<andythenorth>could be easiest to just draw the damn things for all lengths needed
13:35<Wolf01>hey it's arrived!
13:38<andythenorth>help me out here...
13:38<andythenorth>cargos that ship in coils include...?
13:38<andythenorth>- steel
13:38<andythenorth>- paper
13:38<andythenorth>(for known cargos in openttd)
13:41<Mazur>Copper's been known to be wound on coils for shipment.
13:42<andythenorth>corresponds to which openttd cargo?
13:42<Mazur>Oh, going to restrict the category now, are you?
13:42<Mazur><andythenorth> cargos that ship in coils include...?
13:42<Mazur>That was the original question.
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13:45<FHerne>Engineering supplies? Cables, ropes, wiring etc
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: translators * r24001 /trunk/src/lang/portuguese.txt:
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: portuguese - 1 changes by JayCity
13:46<andythenorth>k thanks all
13:48*andythenorth is figuring out which load sprites to generate
13:48<FHerne>More ship cargo sprites then?
13:48<andythenorth>BANDIT first
13:49<andythenorth>but yes, the pixel generator will be applied to FISH later too
13:49<andythenorth>my list so far:
13:49<andythenorth>coils, pipes/tubes, crates, ISO containers, loads covered by tarpaulins, dimensional lumber, vehicles / machinery
13:50<FHerne>Livestock sprites?
13:50<andythenorth>(logs might be both tree-length and sawn logs, not sure)
13:51<FHerne>Will you be having tanks for milk/oil/chemicals, too?
13:51<FHerne>Would be good for your brewery
13:52<andythenorth>I have tank trailers, but yes something for liquid cargo needed
13:52<andythenorth>sugar cane. tricky
13:53<andythenorth>toyland batteries? ugh
13:53<@Terkhen>Feel free to steal cargo sprites from ogfx-rv :P
13:54<andythenorth>need any yourself?
13:54<andythenorth>bales...bales are a sadly missing cargo
13:54<andythenorth>wool, fibre crops are baled
13:54<andythenorth>milk churns are just barrels
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13:55*Terkhen does not remember
13:56<andythenorth>recyclables are often baled
13:56<andythenorth>bulk cargo: dump truck full of animated water :P
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14:04*Rhamphoryncus waves to andythenorth
14:05<Rhamphoryncus>Testing is coming along well
14:05<FHerne>Refrigerated fish boxes for that?
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14:48<andythenorth>really really, just use the fricking GPL :x
14:49<andythenorth>also, who knew MU trains were worth so many words in one post? :o
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15:15<Rhamphoryncus>andythenorth: is it possible to have a button on industry windows to inject money to prolong near-closing industries? Or is that beyond what a grf can do?
15:15<andythenorth>game patch
15:16<Rhamphoryncus>okay. Not a big deal, just thought I'd ask
15:16<andythenorth>imo players should be able to own industries and such
15:16<andythenorth>and generate money from them
15:16<andythenorth>but that would be close to Railroad Tycoon 2 /3
15:16<andythenorth>and RT3 was pretty much an industry game, the trains were purely incidental in many scenarioa
15:17<Rhamphoryncus>Removing "cargo waiting to be processed" is a game patch too?
15:18<andythenorth>ideally it would be a new cb, allowing total control of the industry window (or extend cb 3A)
15:18<andythenorth>set a byte somewhere, you get a blank canvas in that window
15:19*Rhamphoryncus nods
15:20<Rhamphoryncus>Couple more points to bring up. Fishing grounds define the farm supplies string but don't include extra_text_primary.pnml?
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15:23<Rhamphoryncus>So are they intended to be a farm or is that just cruft from when they used to be a farm?
15:24<NGC3982>dudes, got tip on any neat train model grf?
15:24<Rhamphoryncus>NGC3982: which ones have you used?
15:24<Rhamphoryncus>So no train sets :)
15:25<andythenorth>Rhamphoryncus: sounds like cruft. Fishing grounds take no input cargo
15:25<NGC3982>a bit tired of the royal hudson and mat '41
15:25<NGC3982>Rhamphoryncus: isnt FIRS a train set?
15:25<andythenorth>try it and see
15:26<Rhamphoryncus>NGC3982: NARS, 2CC, and UKRS come to mind
15:26<Rhamphoryncus>NGC3982: No, it's an industry replacement
15:27<Rhamphoryncus>I have more train sets installed than I've even used
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15:27<NGC3982>oh wait, sorry. it's 2CC ive tried.
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15:27<NGC3982>ah, ok.
15:27<NGC3982>is all of the above available in the content download?
15:27<NGC3982>thank you!
15:27<Rhamphoryncus>and many more. Search for "train" and such
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15:35<Rhamphoryncus>andythenorth: I'll delete the cruft then. Next up, I'm thinking secondaries need some user feedback as they approach closure. As it is I still haven't seen a primary close, but at 5 years the secondaries are closing regularly
15:35<andythenorth>hard to do well
15:35<andythenorth>is there a ticket about it in the devzone?
15:35<andythenorth>it's an often discussed issue
15:36<Rhamphoryncus>Don't you get to tell a secondary to close?
15:36<andythenorth>I'm not sure if we do or not at the moment though
15:36<Rhamphoryncus>Just opened it, you do
15:37<andythenorth>is it based on when cargo was last delivered?
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15:37<Rhamphoryncus>var_closure_counter going up to 60 months
15:38<Rhamphoryncus>Then a 50/50 chance. I assume this doesn't get called every month or there would be many more closures
15:38<andythenorth>maybe we rely on the random prod. change
15:39<andythenorth>I don't recall that code well
15:39<andythenorth>I'll open it later - food right now
15:39*Rhamphoryncus nods
15:39<andythenorth>possible to trigger a production change message
15:40<andythenorth>do you have a patch queue or such?
15:40<Rhamphoryncus>I'd like it to behave like a primary, but simplified. Randomly reduce a counter when not serviced, randomly increase it when you are
15:40<Rhamphoryncus>I'm using hg normally. Me and mq didn't get along
15:41<andythenorth>do you have diffs for features?
15:42<Rhamphoryncus>I could do one of planetmaker's patches (but after I fixed collisions), then another of my subsequent changes?
15:42<andythenorth>sounds fine
15:42<andythenorth>as long as they can be reviewed easily....
15:43<Rhamphoryncus>I haven't done a heck of a lot. 90% of the patch will probably be updating the string define
15:43<Rhamphoryncus>I definitely understand why CPP was used :)
15:44<andythenorth>it's a big project, with a lot of repetition
15:44<Rhamphoryncus>Yeah, and nml doesn't give the power you need
15:45<Rhamphoryncus>I should let you go :)
15:45<andythenorth>I have a mouth full of chicken tikka. I'm good.
15:45<andythenorth>templating nml with python is highly effective ;)
15:46<Rhamphoryncus>Okay, another thing I'm planning to do is say "Increase: not possible." if we're at 800%
15:46<andythenorth>There's a string for 'max production reached' or such already
15:46<Rhamphoryncus>It's not used with the new primary strings
15:46<Rhamphoryncus>Do you prefer to say "max production reached."?
15:50*Rhamphoryncus nods
15:50<Rhamphoryncus>Probably save that for a separate patch
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16:04<Rhamphoryncus>Closing seems trigger in the middle of the month. I've seen them have less than a week's notice
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16:06<andythenorth>hi supermop
16:06<andythenorth>Rhamphoryncus: closing is zero notice afaik
16:07*andythenorth opens the code
16:07<Rhamphoryncus>It closes at the beginning of the next month
16:08<Rhamphoryncus>I believe the base industries announce at the start of the month, giving them a full month of wait. I may be wrong though.
16:08<andythenorth>ok we use the random prod. change for closing
16:08<andythenorth>and the code we have for it currently is pretty similar to what default game does
16:09<andythenorth>once closure is announced, there's no way back afaik
16:09<Rhamphoryncus>That I know
16:09<andythenorth>result 03
16:10<andythenorth>there is a revision from (long time ago) with power stations that showed their closure chance
16:10<Rhamphoryncus>when is random_production_change called? During the middle of the month?
16:10<andythenorth>not sure - would need industry_cmd.cpp to find that
16:12<andythenorth>announcing closure chance with a news message is problematic
16:12<Rhamphoryncus>So yeah, any day during the month
16:13<andythenorth>as closure is not deterministic
16:13<Rhamphoryncus>Yeah, and if the player can't intervene there's not much point
16:14<andythenorth>we could run a message on the monthly loop, after say....48 months
16:14<andythenorth>just show it once 'deliver cargo within 12 months or industry risks closure'
16:14<Rhamphoryncus>I'd be happy if the industry window just said "This industry is in good health.", "This industry is in poor health.", or "This industry is in dire straights."
16:14<andythenorth>let me see if I can find how we did it before
16:15<Rhamphoryncus>The actual mechanics of progression don't matter, as long as it is a progression and the player can see it
16:16<andythenorth>Rhamphoryncus: around about r657, you'd find nfo code for the power station that handled showing messages
16:16*Rhamphoryncus nods
16:16<andythenorth>THIS_STR_INFO_WARN_1, THIS_STR_INFO_WARN_2 might be of use
16:16<andythenorth>although it's all nfo at that point ;)
16:19<andythenorth>wouldn't it be nice if cargo subtypes could actually be used as intended
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16:19<Rhamphoryncus>What's a cargo subtype?
16:19<andythenorth>instead of being abused for things like length refits, livery refits
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16:24<Rhamphoryncus>ooh nice
16:24<andythenorth>the original intent of it is kind of dumb and confusing
16:24<Rhamphoryncus>but.. all their examples should require a different wagon
16:24<andythenorth>it's extensively abused for other purposes
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16:26<Rhamphoryncus>To do their examples you should turn "goods" into the meta-type an industry produces, then ask a cargo dest system what specific type (cars, petroleum, sheet metal) to produce
16:28*Rhamphoryncus notices his coal mine rating has dropped to 48%. And has 1000+ tonnes waiting.
16:34<andythenorth>Rhamphoryncus: turn on improved station rating :P
16:35<Rhamphoryncus>nah, just need to improve service
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16:41<Rhamphoryncus>I'm so used to dealing with station rating that it's not an issue anymore
16:46*Belugas nods
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16:53*Rhamphoryncus nods at Belugas
16:56*Belugas nods at the nodding one
16:57*Belugas checks his watch and find it interestingly close to liberation time!
16:57<Rhamphoryncus>It's already time for the coup?
16:58<Rhamphoryncus>I thought that was at least another month away
17:00<Belugas>Job is over for the weekend
17:00<Belugas>that's a liberation time
17:00<Belugas>and now... bye!
17:00<Rhamphoryncus>Right.. that..
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17:31<Rhamphoryncus>andythenorth: my ideal station rating would be based on the lowest waiting cargo achieved in the last several months
17:32<andythenorth>try it in game :P
17:32<andythenorth>with secondary industry, you might find some flaws with that
17:32<andythenorth>achieve 100% rating with no production :P
17:32<andythenorth>also, it's got a nasty edge case
17:32<Rhamphoryncus>Just have to make sure that counts as 0%, heh
17:32<andythenorth>as rating decreases, cargo distributed decreases
17:33<andythenorth>so given enough time, not transporting cargo will increase your rating :P
17:33<andythenorth>(a long time)
17:33<Rhamphoryncus>Sorry, lowest waiting as a percentage of the monthly output
17:33<andythenorth>iirc, not available to you
17:33<andythenorth>the rating is a station cb
17:34<andythenorth>stations know nothing about internals of industry
17:34<Rhamphoryncus>That does cripple it, yes
17:34<andythenorth>worth checking, I might misremember
17:34<andythenorth>we have rating code in FIRS
17:34<Chris_Booth>I am going to have to ignore cb typed in the channel
17:35<Rhamphoryncus>Chris_Booth: if you want revenge just start talking about adam sandler x_x
17:35<Chris_Booth>lol I am not mean!
17:39<Rhamphoryncus>My name is adam so those set off my nick highlighter all the time
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17:40<@peter1138>who is adam sandler and why would we talk about him?
17:40<Rhamphoryncus>Some american actor I care nothing about
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18:00<spongie>in this tutorial ( they reuse SH 125 engine, could someone buy me a quick clue on how to add a completely new vehicle?
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18:02*planetmaker highly recommends as tutorial
18:02<@Terkhen>good night
18:02<@planetmaker>g'night, Terkhen
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18:55<Rhamphoryncus>Haw. NARS requires cabooses on freight trains. It doesn't say where in the train it has to be.
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22:48<DanMacK>Hey all
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23:00<supermop>not usually many around this late
23:02<Eddi|zuHause>you mean this early
23:12<supermop>i thought DanMacK was in canada?
23:12<DanMacK>He is
23:12*DanMacK works till 9
23:13<supermop>hmm western canada then?
23:13<DanMacK>11:15 here
23:14*DanMacK is home, just had a bite to eat, and now is trying to get the ambition to take the dogs out and go to be
23:14<supermop>ah, what kind of dogs?
23:15<DanMacK>a beagle/terrier mix and a Chihuaua, Yorkie mix
23:15<DanMacK>wow, I am tires
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23:21<supermop>or border terrier has hit a rough spot
23:22<DanMacK>:( that sucks
23:24<supermop>he is 14 though...
23:25<supermop>unfortunately I caan't get to see him anytime soon
23:26<DanMacK>:( Why not?
23:26<supermop>he's back in ohio with my parents
23:29<supermop>we've had him since i was in middle school, but i've been out here in new york for 4 years now
23:30<supermop>and, in st louis for school for 4 years before that
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23:34<DanMacK>yeah, bit of a haul
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23:43<DanMacK>How goes the expanded stations and such? Not much news as of late
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23:43<supermop>i was drawing a bit last week
23:43<supermop>but i don't do enough lately
23:45<DanMacK>It's a mood thing
23:45<Eddi|zuHause2>with "this early" i meant "5 AM"
23:45<Eddi|zuHause2>which is by far the majority of the peopla around here
23:46<Arafangion>Eddi|zuHause2: 4PM here.
23:48<Eddi|zuHause2>different issue: anybody seen my mouse=
23:48<Eddi|zuHause2>i dropped it on the stairs earlier, and now it disapperard
23:50<DanMacK>Night all
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---Logclosed Sat Mar 03 00:00:28 2012