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#openttd IRC Logs for 2012-03-03

---Logopened Sat Mar 03 00:00:28 2012
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01:36<[OpenTTD]Johannes>Moin, anyone awake? :)
01:37<[OpenTTD]Johannes>I just downloaded RC1 of the new openttd release...
01:37<[OpenTTD]Johannes>Unfortunatelly, for the standard graphic set, there seem to be no extra zoom textures yet?
01:38<[OpenTTD]Johannes>Or do I have to activate them first?
01:47<Rubidium>if standard means original (transport tycoon) graphics, then it'll never have them
01:47<Rubidium>if standard means opengfx, then it doesn't have them (yet)
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02:01<[OpenTTD]Johannes>I meant opengfx
02:01<[OpenTTD]Johannes>okay, not a single texture that was remade?
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02:27<andythenorth>morginn
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02:47<xiong>The window for the FIRS Lumber Yard says, 2t per 8t of chemicals, 6t per 8t of wood; 8t/8t for both. But this seems not to be true in 0.7.0M. I know it *used* to be true.
02:47<xiong>Now, it seems that chemicals alone result in no production at all.
02:48<xiong>That actually makes sense; you do not get any pressure-treated lumber out of a process that has no raw lumber going in. But behavior is not as advertised.
02:48<@Terkhen>good morning
02:49<xiong>Good morning, Terkhen.
02:49<@Terkhen>xiong: http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/firs/issues
02:51<xiong>I'm not sure how that applies.
02:55<xiong>Sorry; I don't see anything there, relevant. Am I wrong? I'm pretty sure I got no ES output at all with only Chem input.
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03:00<@Terkhen>it applies because bug reports that are not reported to the tracker are usually forgotten :)
03:05<xiong>Um, I don't think it's a bug. This is better than it was.
03:06<xiong>If you think it's a bug, of course, you can so say. I'm not arguing about it. I thought you had some info for me.
03:06<xiong>You do know I just play this game? I'm not any kind of developer of it.
03:07<@Terkhen>bug trackers are meant for users, to let them report anything they find strange
03:07<@Terkhen>but... your call :)
03:11<xiong>Really? I don't even see any sort of reporting interface there. Just looks like a list of issues.
03:12<xiong>I see a big 'Donate' button.
03:14<xiong>I'm not a complete idiot; I use RT for my CPAN projects. I don't see anything here to allow me to open a new ticket.
03:14<@planetmaker>and next to 'Issues' you see 'New Issue'
03:14<@planetmaker>of course you might need to register first
03:16<@planetmaker>indeed 'New Issue' only is available when logged in
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03:17<xiong>Well, I'm neither a FIRS developer nor a coop member. So naturally I can't log in.
03:17<andythenorth>if it's a FIRS bug, it's acceptable to report it in the forum thread
03:18<andythenorth>it will be likely checked, verified, and ticketed if valid
03:18<xiong>Developers may not have any interest in public opinion and that's fine. I'm sharing my experiences as a player here with other players.
03:18<andythenorth>unless we forget :)
03:18<andythenorth>xiong: I have interest in public opinion, except when I don't ;)
03:20<xiong>Yes well, that's normal, except when it's not.
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03:25<@Terkhen>xiong: if you just plan to discuss the issues you find with a random audience, what you were already doing is fine, if you want to get them fixed, write a bug report so they don't get forgotten
03:25<@planetmaker>xiong: naturally everyone interested in reporting bugs or issues can register there...
03:26<@Terkhen>developers might be interested in your discussion, or they might be busy with RL stuff when you are discussing it here, or just not willing to check issues based on some vague sentences in a irc channel with no reliable way to contact the user
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03:26<@Terkhen>as I said, your call... we already had this discussion months ago and I don't want to redo it, I merely wanted to point you to FIRS bug tracker
03:27<@Terkhen>to use it or not is your decision
03:27<@Terkhen>bbl
03:27<xiong>I'm not here to start a fight. My differences with the developer community are well known; I'm not here to stir the pot.
03:27<xiong>Some people do actually play the game, though; and yes, we like to exchange ideas.
03:30<andythenorth>what was the issue anyway? :P
03:30*andythenorth reads log
03:30<andythenorth>xiong: it's a bug
03:30<xiong>andythenorth, I wouldn't even call it an issue; I think it's an improvement.
03:31<andythenorth>well it's a bug
03:31<andythenorth>if verifiable
03:31<andythenorth>the code will know
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03:32<xiong>Dunno. I suspect that this kind of complexity is resistant to static analysis. We may actually have to play the game in order to be certain what it does.
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03:36<andythenorth>xiong: you could have just posted it in the forums (either FIRS thread is fine), thus avoiding these meta discussions, which may be painful for some (maybe you?)
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03:36<andythenorth>and yes, only testing by playing verifies the behaviour
03:36<andythenorth>but many of the bugs can be verified simply by reading the code and finding that it contains 1 or more mistakes
03:37<xiong>Sorry, I didn't mean to veer into testing philosophy.
03:37*andythenorth shrug
03:37<andythenorth>it's on topic imo
03:38<xiong>Not the way I talk about it. I'm a fanatic.
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03:39<bolli>hi all...
03:39<bolli>i have another (basic) question...
03:40<xiong>There's this intern who's trying to learn Perl. Nobody on his team knows Perl, or at any rate, not well; or at least, not so they're able to communicate to him. They just shove him a ton of work and leave... which is normal for an intern.
03:40<bolli>i've now compiled openttd, now i just have an issue with languages
03:40<bolli>how do i set a language pack for it to compile with?
03:41<@Terkhen>bolli: languages should be compiled along with OpenTTD
03:41<@Terkhen>what are you using for compiling?
03:41<xiong>But I tried for a long time to help him with some basic concepts, especially testing concepts. He is floundering, writing all sorts of hugely complex and advanced scripts, with no testing at all. And I say he's wasting his time since he will never know if any of his stuff works. He feels I'm too harsh, which is not my intent.
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03:43<bolli>ok, how do i compile it with openttd?
03:44<@Terkhen>bolli: I need to know the answer to my question to answer that
03:44<bolli>i'm using windows Visual C++ 2008
03:44<Rubidium>Terkhen: I'd guess it's Microsoft's compiler environment
03:44<@Terkhen>yes, my guess too :)
03:44<@Terkhen>good morning Rubidium
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03:45<bolli>the wiki is quite sketchy...
03:45<Rubidium>gooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooood morning Terkhen ;)
03:45<@Terkhen>bolli: you need to compile the complete project, which is composed of (IIRC) 4 solutions
03:45<@Terkhen>one of them is the game, another one the languages
03:46<andythenorth>perl is testable?:o
03:46*andythenorth is shocked
03:46*andythenorth is also trolling :)
03:46<@Terkhen>I don't remember which one is the one that you should be compiling, but I'm sure someone here will :)
03:46<Rubidium>is it still the case that openttd.exe isn't copied to the bin directory, and thus if you try to run it from the objs directory it fails to find the translations?
03:46<@Terkhen>oh, yeah, I forgot that
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03:46<Rubidium>s/translations/language packs/
03:47<@Terkhen>I don't know if it has been fixed, lately I have been using only mingw
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03:47<bolli>its not copied it to the bin...
03:47<@Terkhen>if it is still an issue, you need to follow the "bundle" part of the wiki tutorial or to copy your openttd.exe to the bin folder yourself
03:47<andythenorth>"g" + ['o' for in range(lots)] + "d morning Rubidium"
03:48<bolli>ok :)
03:48<bolli>thanks, thats now working :)
03:48<@Terkhen>great :)
03:49<Rubidium>andythenorth: I was kinda thinking about pronouncing it like http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytky9Rq9yf0 ;)
03:49<andythenorth>figures
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03:50<andythenorth>xiong: http://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/3772
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03:52<andythenorth>hmm
03:52<andythenorth>input_image_path = 'input/test_input.png' <- probably gonna fail on windows pythons?
03:52<andythenorth>I have to use os path tools
03:52<andythenorth>?
03:54<@Terkhen>that should work with msys/cygwin
03:54<andythenorth>that is now a rhetorical question :P
03:54<andythenorth>input_image_path = os.path.join(currentdir, 'input', 'test_input.png')
03:54<andythenorth>occasionally python seems clunky
03:54<andythenorth>this is a case in point
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03:59<xiong>Well, that's great, andythenorth. I appreciate that you label it a possible bug. As I say, I think it's more correct this way. Of course, a number of industries should not produce anything under certain combinations of delivery. I just haven't seen the concept yet of basic and booster input cargoes.
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03:59<andythenorth>'always produce something' makes for better gameplay imo
04:00<xiong>A lime kiln, for example, can produce with an input of wood alone but not with stone alone.
04:00<andythenorth>other sets are available if you wish to try the alternative method
04:00<andythenorth>you may enjoy PBI
04:00<xiong>I will always be swayed by arguments of realism.
04:01<xiong>PBI? I saw some industry set when I was browsing around; it had gas works. Don't think it was PBI. Anyway, it will be hard to part me from FIRS; it's hard enough to learn.
04:01<andythenorth>hmm
04:01<andythenorth>Mangler is an 'official' pattern
04:01<andythenorth>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mangler_pattern
04:01*andythenorth learns something
04:02<andythenorth>I was going to write a path mangler for output file names
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04:02<andythenorth>but that's not a mangler
04:02<andythenorth>however my render engine *is* a mangler according to the definition above
04:03<xiong>"Software design pattern" articles on WP are hopelessly pervaded by the evil influence of a very small cabal of CS wonks.
04:03<xiong>They don't care if anything ever ships so long as they can abstract the method.
04:04<andythenorth>ho :)
04:04<andythenorth>+1, although I have no evidence, your argument smells correct
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04:06<andythenorth>http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?WikipediaIsNotWiki < /me likes
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04:24<andythenorth>hmm
04:26<bolli>right... now i'm having difficulties with TortoiseSVN :/
04:26<bolli>every file its modifying when i apply a patch is coming back as rejected
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04:33<@peter1138>then you don't have the correct version checked out
04:34<bolli>how do i do that then?
04:34<@Terkhen>either that or you are trying to apply a git/hg patch, to my knowledge tortoisesvn can't apply those patches
04:34<bolli>its all newe to me....
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04:35<bolli>*new
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04:35<@Terkhen>most patches indicate the revision you need in the forum thread or in the file name (this_is_a_patch_r24000.diff or something like that)
04:36<bolli>ah yes
04:36<bolli>its a GIT patch
04:36<bolli>thanks
04:36<@Terkhen>you need to clean your repository (it might have some hunks applied and other that are not applied) update your openttd source to that revision, apply again and then compile
04:36<@Terkhen>if it is a GIT patch then you probably can't apply it with TortoiseSVN
04:37<bolli>yep, i'm downloading GIT now :P
04:37<@Terkhen>out of curiosity, what are you trying to compile?
04:37<bolli>Infra sharing
04:38<bolli>and i've also tried YACD
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04:39<@Terkhen>if you want to avoid the headaches of patching you might want to check chill's patch pack, it includes infrastructure sharing
04:39<@Terkhen>there might be another infrastructure sharing builds already posted at the development forums
04:44<bolli>ok
04:44<bolli>thanks :)
04:47<@Terkhen>you are welcome
04:51<andythenorth>simuscape
04:52<andythenorth>such a tease :P
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05:10<Wolf01>hello
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05:16<@Terkhen>hi Wolf01
05:22<spongie>My newly created grf doesnt show up in the game settings, is there a way to make openttd complain loudly about why its being ignored?
05:22<@Terkhen>spongie: http://wiki.openttd.org/Debugging
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05:25<spongie>ah there i see it
05:27<@planetmaker>spongie: old OpenTTD version with new NewGRF format?
05:28<@planetmaker>if you use all new NewGRF features or NML (except NML 0.2.x) you need OpenTTD 1.2.0-RC1 or newer
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05:30<spongie>hm
05:30<spongie>im on 1.2.0-beta4
05:30<spongie>btw, the manual says to put my GRF's in ~/.openttd/data, is that still the case?
05:31<@peter1138>no
05:32<spongie>im guessing into newgrf ?
05:32<@peter1138>which manual? :)
05:32<@peter1138>.openttd/newgrf, yes
05:32<spongie>http://wiki.openttd.org/NewGRF_Documentation
05:32<@peter1138>right oh
05:32<@peter1138>no doubt not properly updated because it's not released yet
05:32<@peter1138>btw, why not RC1?
05:33<spongie>ok got rc1 now
05:33<spongie>dont upgrade too often
05:33<@peter1138>:-)
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05:34<spongie>there it works
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05:47<@planetmaker>never debug NewGRFs on old OpenTTD ;-)
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05:59<bolli_>hmm
05:59<bolli_>i've downloaded chillipatch
05:59<bolli_>made sure its the svn.diff patch
06:00<bolli_>and it still brings up a few hundred windows with errors in...
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06:04<@Terkhen>bolli: I mentioned those builds because they are already compiled
06:04<@Terkhen>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=47622 <--- you can find a compiled binary for your OS here
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06:05<bolli>yes, but i want to try to compile it myself :P
06:06<bolli>i want to try and get it working, so i know what to do if i want to do it again
06:11<andythenorth>:)
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06:11<bolli>aha...
06:11*bolli finds the problem
06:11<bolli>its a possible bug in the latest version of SVN...
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06:20<@Terkhen>sorry, I was AFK
06:20<@Terkhen>bolli: a compilation bug?
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06:21<@Terkhen>bolli_: do you mean a compilation bug?
06:21<bolli_>or a code bug....
06:21<bolli_>i've just downloaded the binary...
06:21<bolli_>its a lot easier
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06:23<@Terkhen>if you get errors while patching or compiling, it is probably something wrong locally, it might be that your svn repository is not clean from your earlier patching attempts, or maybe you did not update it to the revision required by the patch
06:25<Ammler>bolli_: patches mostly work just for a certain svn revision
06:26<bolli_>I don't know...
06:26<bolli_>i've got it working with the binary now though...
06:27<@Terkhen>ok :)
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06:34<@planetmaker>bolli_: 'bug in the svn version' doesn't apply when using custom patches ;-)
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06:54<spongie>In my nml I set "power: 324 kW", yet it shows up as 400 in the purchase menu. The example files say "changed by callback", how can I prevent this?
06:55<andythenorth>spongie: paste your code http://paste.openttdcoop.org/
06:55<andythenorth>(all the code for this vehicle)
06:56<spongie>andythenorth: http://pastebin.ca/2123769
06:56<andythenorth>hmm
06:56<spongie>oh wait
06:56<spongie>haha
06:57<andythenorth>there's no cb defined to change power there
06:57<spongie>kw vs hp
06:57<andythenorth>yup
06:57<andythenorth>knowing someone else is looking often helps you find a bug :P
06:57<spongie>it does!
06:57<spongie>im quit pleased with the way the graphics look
06:58<spongie>my first C1 from 1949 is complete, bwahaha!
06:59<andythenorth>how many trains are you planning to code btw?
07:03<spongie>looks like theres only going to be 3
07:04<spongie>models C1 to C9 where basically all the same
07:04<spongie>then C10 to C15 is almost exactly the same, fewer passengres but more power
07:04<spongie>or something like that
07:04<spongie>and then there's the new C20
07:05<andythenorth>k
07:05<andythenorth>you don't need any templating or anything then
07:05<andythenorth>straightforward nml should work well for you
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07:18<spongie>are there any track sets for electric trains that get power from ground railing?
07:20<spongie>i saw something about a 3rd rail but im not sure if its related
07:24<Illegal_Alien>Ahooga
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07:31<andythenorth>spongie: 3rd rail is ground rail with return via the main rails
07:31<andythenorth>metros often use 2 power rails though
07:36<spongie>andythenorth: i dont think this one does.
07:36<spongie>but anyway, i want the sparks by the wheels and not by the roof, but i dont see such an offset option for the visual effect
07:37<spongie>also, while electric, it doesnt need the wires
07:37<spongie>so i thought maybe someone made a metro-like track set
07:38<Elukka>there is
07:38<Elukka>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?t=49476
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07:42<LordAro>mornings
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07:47<frosch123>i wondered why it was so silent... then i noticed that i had not opened irc yet :p
07:49<Illegal_Alien>HELOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
07:50<LordAro>silly quak :P
07:50<@Terkhen>hi frosch123
07:50<frosch123>moin :)
07:51<spongie>yay, pretty wagons
07:51<Illegal_Alien>Wagons where?
07:52<spongie>Elukka: looks like it replaces monorail
07:53<Elukka>iirc there's an option to replace monorail, maglev or add a new type
07:53<Elukka>in parameters
07:56<Illegal_Alien>Grr i hate coding
07:57<@Terkhen>do something else :P
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07:57<Illegal_Alien>Yeah creating sprites wich i need to code :P
07:58<@Terkhen>:)
07:58<Illegal_Alien>But still i need to code then :P
07:59<Illegal_Alien>Sprites are not the problem: http://www.tt-forums.net/download/file.php?id=156679 :)
08:02<andythenorth>Illegal_Alien: which set?
08:02<andythenorth>can't you just use the generator? :P
08:02<andythenorth>no coding needed
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08:03<Illegal_Alien>Generator ?
08:05<spongie>im trying to have one sprite set for front and one for rear using a switch on the position_in_consist variable. however, I want to switch on the first and last car. Last is easy, 0, but how do I write the case for last car?
08:07<@Yexo>use position_in_consist_from_end?
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08:07<spongie>Yexo: just add it to the expression part of the switch?
08:08<@Yexo>no
08:08<spongie>how should i use it in my switch then?
08:08<@Yexo>something like: switch(..., other_switch, position_in_consist_from_end) { 0: end_sprite; default_sprite; } switch(..., position_+in_consist) { 0: front_sprite; other_switch; }
08:09<@Yexo>ie use two switches and link them together
08:10<@Yexo>or switch (..., (position_in_consist == 0) + 2 * (position_in_consist_from_end == 0)) { 1: front_sprite; 2: end_sprite, 3: both_front_and_end_sprite; default_sprite; }
08:10<@Yexo>you could leave case 3 out if you want to use the normal sprite for that one
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08:17<spongie>Yexo: hm.
08:20<Zuu>frosch123: You have a sound signal for every message that you get?
08:20<spongie>How are they linked together, i dont see a use of other_switch in the second switch
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08:40<andythenorth>spongie: I'll paste something....
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08:44<frosch123>Zuu: no, only visual
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08:45<andythenorth>spongie: second switch here chains to the first one if the result is not in the specified ranges
08:45<andythenorth>http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/1172/
08:45<andythenorth>the last entry is basically 'default'
08:45<andythenorth>and can be a return value, or link to another switch
08:46<frosch123>it's always entertaining when parents argue with their small children at the cash desk in supermarkets... but if they are switching between three languages while doing, it becomes quite weird
08:46<MNIM>0-o
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08:47<MNIM>where's that, frosch123?
08:47*andythenorth might teach his kids a funny language
08:47<MNIM>try afrikaans
08:47<frosch123>MNIM: where? in my local supermarket
08:47<MNIM>at least to us dutch it sounds amusing.
08:47<Arafangion>Try a sign language.
08:47<MNIM>well yeah, got that, frosch, but what country, what languages?
08:47<andythenorth>most of the people I work with now seem to speak interwebs
08:48<andythenorth>it's mostly a dialect of internationalised english I think
08:48<frosch123>well, it was not like they used the languages in one sentence. it was more like every time they restarted argueing they tried a different language
08:48<Arafangion>andythenorth: lol wat?
08:48<andythenorth>Arafangion: wtf?
08:48<Arafangion>andythenorth: I see we have an understanding of what 'interwebs' is. :)
08:48<frosch123>MNIM: germany; german, english, some language i did not understand (probably some african thingie)
08:49<MNIM>ah
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08:51<Zuu>Arafangion: Do you sign?
08:52<Arafangion>Zuu: Yes, specifically, in Auslan.
08:52<Zuu>Last time I was in stockholm there was two girls at the subway that was discussing what signs they knew.
08:53<spongie>andythenorth: "extra_callback_info" is just any value passed on from the first switch?
08:53<Arafangion>Zuu: That'd be a very long list for me. ;)
08:53<Zuu>I kind of get along in the Swedish one.
08:54<Zuu>Do you use the ASL alphabet or your own one?
08:54<Arafangion>Zuu: Ours is derived from the two-handed british alphabet.
08:54<Arafangion>The same alphabet, in fact.
08:54<Zuu>Intresting
08:55<Arafangion>Zuu: We used to have the Irish alphabet as well, which is vaguely similar to the ASL one... But it's almost died out.
08:55<andythenorth>spongie: no, the extra cb info is specific to the callback
08:56<Zuu>l know that there has been an old two handed in Sweden, but now there is a one-handed that I don't know is used anywhere else.
08:56<andythenorth>some have extra variables you can use / need
08:56<Zuu>Eg. I don't know a specific place that uses it aswel. Could be that there exist a place that uses it which I don't know.
08:56<andythenorth>spongie: you can pass information between switches if you need to, but often you don't need to
08:56<Arafangion>Zuu: Interesting, I thought the two-handed was used only in the BANZSL family (British, Australian and NZ Sign Languages)
08:57<MNIM>heh - sign language is amusing.
08:57<spongie>andythenorth: its working. thanks for the paste
08:57<MNIM>we've got three dutch schools for the deaf.
08:57<andythenorth>spongie: np
08:57<MNIM>they all use a different language.
08:57<MNIM>well, the same language, but differing signs.
08:57<Zuu>Arafangion: I don't know how long time ago it was used. It resambled how the latin alphabet letters look.
08:58<Arafangion>MNIM: Not uncommon.
08:58<Arafangion>Zuu: Ah, I see. The two-handed alphabet we use does not resemble the letters (well, some of them do... But most don't)
09:01<Arafangion>MNIM: Having variations like that between schools is very common..
09:02<Arafangion>MNIM: But as long as the _language_ is the same, I don't think it is a problem, at all.
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09:02<MNIM>well, the sign for 'dog' may mean 'horse' on another school.
09:03<Zuu>Indeed, for people who sign better than me, it is sometimes possible to see which teacher a person had from their way of signing.
09:03<MNIM>so the sentence 'I like to ride horses' might be awkward.
09:03<spongie>damn it. my second train has its front and rear car going sideways in certain directions.
09:03<MNIM>sounds like you misplaced a few sprites :d
09:03<Zuu>MNIM: But they would still use different mouth movements.
09:04<Arafangion>Zuu: Not neccessarily.
09:04<Arafangion>Zuu: Some groups don't mouth at all.
09:04<andythenorth>spongie: your sprites are wrong, or more likely your spritesets ;)
09:04<Zuu>Yea
09:04<spongie>andythenorth: its an exact copy of the previous
09:04<MNIM>I don't think my niece uses her mouth while signing.
09:05<spongie>andythenorth: the only thing that changed is the Y offset
09:05<MNIM>she can talk (with effort) though, but she prefers not to whenever possible.
09:05<Arafangion>MNIM: Riding dogs is suffiently uncommon that you'd ask for clarification if you didn't realise that they use the horse sign for that.
09:05<andythenorth>spongie: paste?
09:06<Arafangion>MNIM: I'm in a similar situation - I can talk (with ease, actually, and quite well), but I _still_ prefer not to whenever possible.
09:06<spongie>andythenorth: http://pastebin.ca/2123795
09:07<MNIM>well, yeah, that was an example.
09:07<andythenorth>spongie: which one has the issues?
09:07<spongie>andythenorth: c15
09:07<spongie>andythenorth: under the c15 comment you can see the template is using offset 7 and 8
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09:08<spongie>andythenorth: the position arguments to the switch have % 4, ive removed them with the same effect
09:08<spongie>just thought id go out on a limb and try something
09:10<andythenorth>hmm
09:10<andythenorth>I don't actually know what the % 4 is doing in this context
09:11<andythenorth>might have to look at nml expressions docs
09:11<Eddi|zuHause>%4 is like an AND-mask of 03
09:11<spongie>isnt a mod ?
09:12<Illegal_Alien>Hurray at beeing in the middle of licensing stuff wich i cant change :/
09:12<spongie>andythenorth: anyway, removing it doesnt change the problem
09:12<Eddi|zuHause>Illegal_Alien: welcome to the beatuiful side of copyright
09:12<spongie>andythenorth: image is http://46.59.11.201/test/swedish_metro.png
09:14<andythenorth>spongie: something in template tmpl_vehicle_8_views is bothering me
09:14<andythenorth>I can't tell you what
09:14<andythenorth>do you get \ view when you expect / view?
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09:15<spongie>I get /
09:15<spongie>but in \ going south the rear car is sideways
09:15<spongie>and going north the front car is sideways
09:16<andythenorth>ach it's not the template
09:16<andythenorth>:)
09:16<andythenorth>check the last column of the blue metro train sprites ;)
09:16<andythenorth>compare it to the one above ;)
09:17<@planetmaker>if only all newgrf authors and sprite artist would use GPL in our community we would have no such problem
09:17<spongie>HAAA
09:17<Arafangion>GPL actually makes this harder.
09:17<andythenorth>Arafangion: and your evidence is...?
09:17<Arafangion>andythenorth: The license contains restrictions.
09:18<spongie>It's beautiful!
09:18<Arafangion>andythenorth: Therefore, it's harder to reconcile different licenses.
09:18<Arafangion>spongie: Not arguing that!
09:19<spongie>Arafangion: it looks just like when i was kid.
09:19<Arafangion>It's an elegant way to encourage opensource software... But it does make it harder to try and get it to cooperate with other licenses, particularly what are now referred to as 'gpl incompatible licenses'.
09:19<spongie>wrong recipient
09:19<spongie>andythenorth: (it looks just like back in the 70's and 80's)
09:19*Arafangion heads off to bed.
09:19<spongie>now for the new adtranz train
09:20<andythenorth>Arafangion: the viable alternatives are...?
09:20<Arafangion>andythenorth: Hard to say. :) Depends on what you want to use it for...
09:21<@planetmaker>Arafangion: how does the GPL make it harder?
09:21<@planetmaker>to what state do you compare?
09:21<@planetmaker>certainly not "no license"
09:21<Arafangion>planetmaker: Well, consider teh MIT license.
09:22<Arafangion>But anyway, G'night!
09:22<andythenorth>bye ;)
09:23<Illegal_Alien>The only restriction i see is the my current position between the 2 sides :p
09:23<andythenorth>the only problem with GPL is idiots not using it 'because licensing is boring'
09:23<andythenorth>they're like fricking children
09:24<andythenorth>they should piss off to deviant art or their private simuscape community or whatever
09:24<andythenorth>adults use the GPL to make their toys
09:25<Eddi|zuHause>Illegal_Alien: there's only two ways to go: a) continue with CC-BY-NC-ND, and write every code from scratch, or relicense the sprites as GPL and be able to use existing code
09:25<Illegal_Alien>3 ways :)
09:25<andythenorth>dual license the code
09:25<Illegal_Alien>Nope stop working on it :P
09:25<andythenorth>or do none of the above, spend time on something more fun :P
09:25<Eddi|zuHause>licensing code with -ND is pretty stupid...
09:25<andythenorth>Illegal_Alien: always include the 'do nothing argument' :D
09:27<spongie>Damn, the C20 has a fixed number of units
09:27<andythenorth>spongie: that's possible to handle
09:27<andythenorth>in several ways
09:27<andythenorth>how many carriages?
09:27<Illegal_Alien>I wonder why its stupid. (As stated many times its a restriction the creators gave me). I understand why they are doing it though.
09:28<Illegal_Alien>But on the other hand i am thinking :)
09:28<spongie>andythenorth: there are 3 units, front and rear are engines + cargo
09:28<spongie>the middle one is just cargo
09:28<spongie>where cargo = passengers
09:28<spongie>http://doc-0c-8g-3dwarehouse.googleusercontent.com/3dwarehouse/secure/hhulr73hmmak89paul31eote4ben7ngk/203clm8d83sqihjajj39jj8j9ue1d6pd/1330776000000/lt/*/ea3209ff81dba5a338fa498bfdb2dd10?ts=1202488770000&ctyp=other
09:28<Illegal_Alien>nvm my head hurts with thinking
09:28<spongie>ouch long url
09:28<spongie>but those are the two configurations in use. 3 cars or 2x3 cars
09:29<andythenorth>spongie: you need to create articulated vehicles
09:29<andythenorth>iirc, the NML tutorial for trams shows how to do it
09:29<spongie>indeed.
09:29<spongie>thanks for the pointer.
09:29<@planetmaker>Illegal_Alien: why do they do it (the restrictions)?
09:29<@planetmaker>I don't understand it
09:29<andythenorth>spongie: if you get stuck, holler
09:30<andythenorth>I'm making assumptions which may be offensive, but usually artists use these stupid insufficiently restrictive licenses because of the following:
09:30<andythenorth>- they're worried they're going to be 'exploited'
09:30<Eddi|zuHause>Illegal_Alien: basically you have two "worlds" colliding here. one is the artist's world where "this is _my_ work and i want to control every aspect of it" and the other is the coder's world where "this is _my_ work, but other people should be able to contribute, reuse, continue, ..."
09:30<andythenorth>- they want creative control
09:30<andythenorth>- they're idiots
09:30<Eddi|zuHause>Illegal_Alien: the two philosophies are incompatible
09:30<andythenorth>- they don't like sharing
09:31<andythenorth>- they don't understand and nobody has taken the time to explain
09:31<Illegal_Alien>Its the train simulator community i think that says enough :)
09:31<@planetmaker>it doesn't tell me anything
09:31<@planetmaker>(I don't know that community)
09:31<@planetmaker>nor actually that game / programme
09:31<andythenorth>they don't want their work repackaged and sold for money?
09:32<Illegal_Alien>Bingo :p
09:32<andythenorth>probably valid
09:32<andythenorth>people measure that kind of loss irrationally
09:32<andythenorth>there is a market for selling train sim addons
09:33<@planetmaker>but... if it's GPL, it may be sold. But the source has to be given as well. Thus anyone can give it away also for free...
09:33<andythenorth>which is fine, but people freak out because they think they're losing somehow
09:33<andythenorth>it's basically one of those cake slicing pyschological experiments :P
09:33<@planetmaker>also and especially, if included in something larger
09:34<Illegal_Alien>And there is the catch, i need to add the original MSTS model and the 3D model wich is impossible :)
09:34<andythenorth>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prospect_theory
09:35<@planetmaker>yes, so, Illegal_Alien?
09:35<andythenorth>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loss_aversion
09:35<@planetmaker>oh... MSTS is the commercial game and the model taken from there?
09:35<Illegal_Alien>Nope
09:35<@planetmaker>otherwise I see no catch
09:36<Illegal_Alien>Wait i think we going to come to a solution
09:36<Illegal_Alien>Do i have to includie the source of can i link to it?
09:36<Illegal_Alien>*or
09:37<Illegal_Alien>If i can link to it i can say its based uponn xyz model wich can be downloaded at location D
09:37<andythenorth>it would be stretching GPL to do that
09:37<andythenorth>maybe not to breaking point though
09:37<@planetmaker>it'd be stretching indeed
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09:38<andythenorth>you don't have to distribute source with GPL
09:38<andythenorth>but you have to be able to honour a request for sources
09:38<andythenorth>which may be transmitted in a variety of ways
09:38<@planetmaker>but... I may not modify the model then
09:38<@planetmaker>so... probably that's not feasible
09:38<andythenorth>you also have the right to charge a transmission fee for source ;)
09:39<@planetmaker>andythenorth: but not out of proportion. If you offer free download, you also must offer free source
09:40<@planetmaker>Illegal_Alien: I may not take the model and change that, right?
09:40<Illegal_Alien>You may not change the model, but you can do with the sprites. (As i am the only one allowed to change them in the first place to create the sprites, after that everyone can pixelthingy them.)
09:41<andythenorth>it's a right arse isn't it :)
09:42<andythenorth>I'd be doing something else I reckon ;)
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09:43<@planetmaker>"The source code for a work means the preferred form of the work for making modifications to it." kinda implies it's the models. So in short: won't work
09:44<andythenorth>how many models are there?
09:44<andythenorth>> some?
09:44<Illegal_Alien>100`s ?
09:45<@planetmaker>got a link?
09:45<andythenorth>how droll
09:45<andythenorth>are the artists contactable?
09:45<Illegal_Alien>Yes they are
09:45<andythenorth>is GPL discussion with them a source of boring drama?
09:46<Illegal_Alien>But the models are available for everyone to download and with the correct tools (free) you can change them.
09:46<Illegal_Alien>Erm yes, some are even dramaqueens about having them in Locomotion :P
09:46<andythenorth>are there others who might be amenable?
09:47<andythenorth>we have ttd artists who get all drama-tised when licensing is mentioned
09:47<andythenorth>and others who are 'meh, I agree'
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09:47<Illegal_Alien>I could try the one of the dutch trains, but i doubt it.
09:49<@planetmaker>well, got a link to some of these models, Illegal_Alien?
09:49<+michi_cc>The official GPL FAQ seems to be quite clear that "linking" to models can't be used to circumvent the GPL http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.en.html#MoneyGuzzlerInc (Replace library with 3D model in your mind)
09:50<Illegal_Alien>http://www.christrains.com/msts.html for example
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10:07<@planetmaker>looks pretty commercial
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10:08<Illegal_Alien>Some if them are commercial but the ones i link are free wich i have permision for to modify. But nvm forget the thread this is not going to work.
10:09<andythenorth>the only route is for artists to license under GPL (or GPL compatible)
10:09<andythenorth>or to code a set which is not GPL
10:09<andythenorth>sorry :(
10:09<Illegal_Alien>and as i cant code its simple :P
10:14<andythenorth>can you create models?
10:17<Illegal_Alien>Nope
10:17<andythenorth>ach a vie :)
10:17<Illegal_Alien>Well i tried, but it sucks :p
10:17<andythenorth>hard place > Illegal_Alien < rock
10:18<Illegal_Alien>Sounds fun
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10:47<spongie>yay, articulation finished
10:49<andythenorth>:)
10:51<spongie>im having trouble finding the facts tho
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10:55<spongie>ok. i think my grf is done
10:56<spongie>ive found the proper data for each train
10:56<spongie>http://46.59.11.201/test/swedish_metro.grf
10:56<spongie>andythenorth: want to have a look?
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11:00<spongie>btw, when i add the metro track set to my game with parameter "add as 3rd rail" i dont get the option to build it. i have to replace an existing track set, like monorail, to get it
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11:01<spongie>looking at the docs there seems to be no way to keep 4 original tracks + the metro one
11:01<MNIM>spongie: did you just change a newgrf during a game?
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11:01<MNIM>*gasp*
11:02<spongie>MNIM: no
11:02<spongie>added metro tracks and then new game
11:03<spongie>something about railtypes disabled?
11:03<MNIM>0-o
11:03<MNIM>then I don't know.
11:04<spongie>yep, checked, the metro track isnt available unless i set replace to mono or maglev in parameters
11:04<@planetmaker>other track sets?
11:06<spongie>im trying the metro track set
11:06<+michi_cc>You're not going to get 3rd rail track without a 3rd rail vehicle.
11:06<spongie>if I have the parameter "add 3rd rail" i dont get it
11:06<spongie>michi_cc: how come?
11:07<+michi_cc>You can't build elrail/mono/maglev either with no available vehicle (unless you enable the advanced setting that is somewhere).
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11:08<andythenorth>hmm
11:08<andythenorth>wtf
11:08*andythenorth just told a train in depot to ignore signals
11:08<andythenorth>and it crashed in depot
11:09<Wolf01>happens
11:09<andythenorth>into another train that was stopped
11:09<andythenorth>in depot
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11:10<+michi_cc>Then it wasn't stopped *in* the depot, but the last wagon or so ws still just so not in the depot.
11:11<andythenorth>hmm
11:11<andythenorth>wonder what stopped it
11:11<andythenorth>maybe I misclicked
11:11<andythenorth>plausible
11:11<spongie>hm. im not sure how to make my trains use the metro track set
11:11<spongie>line 260: Syntax error, unexpected token "RDC"
11:11<spongie>seems it doesnt like the 3 in 3RDC
11:11<spongie>as track type
11:12<andythenorth>spongie: grf looks nice btw
11:12<Eddi|zuHause>spongie: enclose it in ""
11:12<andythenorth>you might consider offering sprites in company colours?
11:13<andythenorth>also you might be able to fix the appearance in the vehicle info window
11:13<andythenorth>there's a specific cb for the latter iirc
11:13<spongie>Eddi|zuHause: "This expression can not be assigned to a parameter"
11:13<andythenorth>and same in buy menu too - the sprites are positioned too high
11:14<spongie>andythenorth: yeah i have to tweak the offsets a bit
11:14<Eddi|zuHause>spongie: that might be an nml bug/oversight
11:14<+michi_cc>"The label 3RDR is written as a string because an identifier can't start with a numeric value. To reference it later you can write railtype("3RDR")." (http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/NML:Railtypetable)
11:15<spongie>Yeah now it works
11:16<andythenorth>package it with a license.txt for GPL, then stick it on bananas as v0.1
11:17<andythenorth>wait for bug reports or feedback, then you can make it v1 ;)
11:17<spongie>i have a bit of work left tho
11:17<spongie>cost
11:17<spongie>running cost
11:17<andythenorth>release early, release often
11:17*andythenorth didn't bother setting costs in HEQS for ~1 year
11:17<spongie>visual effects
11:17<spongie>also, im thinking about loading/unloading sprite sets
11:18<andythenorth>doors open?
11:18<andythenorth>visual effects is almost a no-go
11:18<spongie>yeah
11:18<spongie>andythenorth: i need either to turn off the sparks or make them move down to the track power
11:18<andythenorth>newgrf support for visual effects is not forthcoming
11:18<_maddy>guys anyone up for a multiplayer game?
11:18<andythenorth>for reasons I can't remember, but may somehow be my fault :P
11:18<Zuu>Hmm so Luukland offers its city builder as a single player download, but doesn't offer the source for the server? Sounds like a GPL violation if he still rejects if someone downloads the client and then asks for the source code.
11:19<andythenorth>frosch123: what was the limitation on newgrf visual effects? I didn't help write a spec? Or something else?
11:21<SpComb>Zuu: presumeably the source for the customized client distributed?
11:21<SpComb>Zuu: there's nothing in the GPL to force anyone operating a server to disclose the source code of the server to anyone connecting to it
11:21<andythenorth>GPL v2 ^
11:21<SpComb>vs the AGPL
11:21<andythenorth>does GPL v3 have an optional clause for that? It's more AGPL compatible iirc
11:22<SpComb>there's AGPLv3
11:22<@planetmaker>_maddy: there are many servers already running where multiplayer is on
11:22<Zuu>The server and client may not use the same code. But any code that is in the client is possible to claim access to I think.
11:23<SpComb>indeed
11:23<_maddy>planetmaker: yeah I know, I am looking for a coop game though, like openttdcoop but in smaller scale
11:23<Zuu>Oh, actually, there is a diff in the download zip.
11:23<SpComb>but they can probably easily keep most of the functionality on the server and not have to release it
11:23<@planetmaker>Zuu: the citybuilder is not for connecting to the server
11:23<+michi_cc>Server, client, doesn't matter. If binaries are distributed, sources have to as well.
11:23<SpComb>assuming, yes, that they don't distribute the server
11:24<@planetmaker>and the diff is indeed provided. Technically not sufficient. But as OpenTTD source remains available for all revisions, it allows to build that binary
11:24<+michi_cc>A diff is *not* enough if you read the GPL strictly.
11:24<@planetmaker>I know
11:24<frosch123>andythenorth: i guess a combination of noone is interested in writing a spec, implementing it, or even collect the requirements
11:24<@planetmaker>"technically not sufficient", michi_cc :-)
11:25<frosch123>it's a too minor thingie, there is more interesting stuff than visual effects (at least for me)
11:25<+michi_cc>Of course, that would invalidates basically every OpenTTD patch ever posted anywhere, so we tend not to care.
11:25<@planetmaker>^^
11:25<+michi_cc>Assuming of course the diff really is complete and the compiled result will be identical to what they offer as binary.
11:26<Zuu>michi_cc: Posting a diff but no binary isn't a violation is it?
11:26<SpComb>heh, that would be a fine license, requiring you to distribute the binary for any derived source works
11:27<Zuu>binary for what arcitecture? :-)
11:27<+michi_cc>Not posting a binary is not a violation, but technically you would have to at least post a file with the license text as well.
11:28<spongie>the Microsoft EULA rules. thats what everybody should use.
11:28<+michi_cc>Which rules? The rules that are probably 95% of the times invalid in e.g. Germany? :)
11:29<spongie>i meant it rules
11:29<spongie>it rocks
11:29<spongie>its awesome
11:29<spongie>... not
11:34<andythenorth>frosch123: but....but...but. Visual effects are absolutely the highest priority, and I demand that they're worked on NOW!
11:34<andythenorth>or I want my money back :P
11:35<Zuu>In that case, where are flashing text effects for the GS messege dialog? :-)
11:35<andythenorth>you need a marquee effect as well
11:36<andythenorth>there was a spec for visual effect: http://bugs.openttd.org/task/4263
11:36<@planetmaker>and I want to drive trains and have force-feedback on the levers!
11:36<Zuu>A starter would though be to allow to align the text to left and not have it centered. :-)
11:37<andythenorth>and I want a pony!
11:37<Zuu>Why don't we have html in OpenTTD? ;-)
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12:01<@Yexo>Why don't we have OpenTTD in html?
12:03<Eddi|zuHause>didn't we want to port openttd to javascript?
12:03<Eddi|zuHause>in a week?
12:03<Eddi|zuHause>:p
12:03<andythenorth>generate it :P
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12:06<andythenorth>this: output_path = common.get_output_path(length + '_tipping_trailer_' + variation.connection_type + '_' + variation.set_name + '_' + variation.cargo + '.png')
12:06<andythenorth>or put it in a list, then use '_'.join on it?
12:06<andythenorth>which will look smarter, but use more LOC :P
12:06<andythenorth>and add pointless abstraction
12:07<Eddi|zuHause>not pointless, you can more easily customise the naming scheme
12:08<andythenorth>hmm
12:08<Eddi|zuHause>current CETS naming scheme is <vehicle id>_<length>_<livery/cargo>_<8/32bpp>_<zoom>
12:08<andythenorth>that code i pasted is defined in multiple files, calling that common function
12:08<andythenorth>if I just passed all the vars as args....the common function could construct the total path
12:09<Eddi|zuHause>yes
12:09<andythenorth>I'll buy that for a dollar
12:09<Eddi|zuHause>functional abstraction/refactoring
12:09<andythenorth>hmm
12:09<andythenorth>**args or explicit args?
12:10<Eddi|zuHause>construct_filename(arg1, arg2, ...)
12:10<Eddi|zuHause>get_output_path(construct_filename(*args))
12:11<Eddi|zuHause>get_output_path(construct_filename(id, length, variation))
12:11<andythenorth>yarp
12:11<andythenorth>the latter
12:11<andythenorth>thanks :)
12:12<andythenorth>much better
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12:46<spongie>andythenorth: do you have any specific suggestions regarding the alignment of the sprites in the grf?
12:57<andythenorth>spongie: the on-track alignments look fine
12:57<andythenorth>if you look at the buy menu view, you're too high (clipping into the next row)
12:57<andythenorth>if you look at vehicle info window, same issue
12:58<andythenorth>there are specific cbs that let you tweak those
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13:02<spongie>andythenorth: thts true for all trains in my buy menu
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13:06<spongie>andythenorth: http://46.59.11.201/test/swedish_metro.grf
13:06<spongie>maybe i fixed it after you downloaded... hm
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13:23<andythenorth>spongie: not fixed in that version ^
13:23<andythenorth>;)
13:24<andythenorth>you're only 1px too high
13:24<andythenorth>you just need a custom spriteset with offset for the buymenu, or a custom graphic
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13:29<longbyte1>Quick question
13:30<longbyte1>how do you drop a cargo and take something at the same time?
13:30<longbyte1>for example, I want to move livestock and grain to a factory
13:30<longbyte1>but I also want to pick up the goos
13:31<longbyte1>goods*
13:31<longbyte1>and then I come back to the farm where I transfer the goods
13:32<longbyte1>hello?
13:33<andythenorth>longbyte1: put wagons for all cargos in your train
13:33<andythenorth>hmm
13:33<andythenorth>actually I don't think you can do this
13:34<Wolf01>not with the same order, but you can go to depot then back to load
13:34<@planetmaker>longbyte1: you need a sufficiently new trainset which allows wagons to refit to all the cargos in question
13:34<andythenorth>when you transfer the goods at the farm, they'll be reloaded by the train
13:34<@planetmaker>I can suggest to give OpenGFX+ a try. Though livestock is difficult. Those wagons are a bit special and iirc cannot be automatically refit to or from liestock in stations
13:34<@planetmaker>You'll need OpenTTD 1.2.0-RC1
13:35<@planetmaker>earlier versions won't cut it
13:36<andythenorth>ow ow
13:36<andythenorth>figuring out generating cargo sprites hurts my head
13:36<@planetmaker>*OpenGFX+ Trains
13:41<Rhamphoryncus>andythenorth: 24 years in and I just had a primary close
13:43<spongie>primary close?
13:44<Rhamphoryncus>First primary industry closure
13:44<Rhamphoryncus>in the firs patch I'm working on
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: translators * r24002 /trunk/src/lang/ (croatian.txt hungarian.txt):
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: croatian - 9 changes by VoyagerOne
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: hungarian - 5 changes by Brumi
13:46<andythenorth>Rhamphoryncus: expected or unexpected?
13:46<andythenorth>there are bug reports that they close, but code says no
13:47<Rhamphoryncus>Expected. Been watching it.
13:47<andythenorth>k
13:47<andythenorth>sounds plausible
13:47<Rhamphoryncus>Just a very long time
13:48<andythenorth>trying to control it further needs to be outside newgrf
13:48<andythenorth>like NoGo or such
13:49<longbyte1>company val = $2?
13:50<Rhamphoryncus>No, this is simply due to the rate at which the production level drops
13:50<Rhamphoryncus>It took most of that time to hit 25%
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13:53<spongie>gonna call it quits for tonight. byesies!
13:53-!-spongie [~peter@h-11-201.a254.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Quit: leaving]
13:54<+michi_cc>andythenorth: Why'd you say custom sprites for the buy menu, isn't http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/GlobalVariables#Y-Offset_for_train_sprites_.280E_.2F_8E.29 enough?
13:55-!-DrSpangle [~dsmullen@CPE18593342d131-CM18593342d12e.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #openttd
13:55<DrSpangle>hi everyone, i'm having a problem with bananas
13:55<DrSpangle>i need some advice, maybe some troubleshooting tips
13:56<__ln__>if they are green, the taste is suboptimal
13:57<DrSpangle>troubleshooting suggestions?
13:58<DrSpangle>also, i'm trying to download av8 and the total town replacement pack, because some version or another is required to play in openttdcoop's public server. problem is, the download is simply stopping after 4kb and won't proceed
13:58<DrSpangle>when i cancel and try again, sometimes it just says "could not decompress the downloaded file", but i'm sure it hasn't even downloaded it successfully to start with
14:01<DrSpangle>if it helps, i need av8 v1.81, and total town v3.02a
14:01<DrSpangle>i was trying to download and install them manually but i've had no success because i'm going round in circles trying to find an actual download link
14:01<longbyte1>is it just me, or is the ai unbeatable
14:06<+michi_cc>longbyte1: There are several different AIs, and e.g. IdleMore is definitely beatable, so it is you :p
14:09<DrSpangle>well, i made a breakthrough, i got up to 28kb of the av8 set before it's stalled now
14:10<DrSpangle>can anyone help me?
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14:23<xiong>DrSpangle, yes, you are definitely doing this the hard way. Launch the game itself and go to Online Content.
14:24<DrSpangle>that's how i've been trying to do it. i am clicking multiplayer, clicking the openttdpublic server. i've installed their standalone GRF pack which required a manual install, but when i check the missing files, i am prompted to download av8 and total town replacement, like i said
14:24<DrSpangle>i'm running /openttd-trunk-r23974-windows
14:24<DrSpangle>64 bit
14:24<xiong>Hm. Well, I know nothing specific about coop. Is that the correct game version?
14:25<DrSpangle>yes, the problem is the GRF files mismatch
14:25<DrSpangle>only the two which i specified
14:26<DrSpangle>the issue comes when attempting to download them using the ingame content manager, the download begins and i am given a notification messagebox, but the download seems to stall very early on and does not continue, and it doesn't time out either
14:26<DrSpangle>so i just sit there looking at a 1% download
14:27<xiong>Sorry, can't help. I've always gotten good results with Online Content. Maybe retry, a bit more patience? Occasionally successful approach.
14:28<DrSpangle>sadly i've been retrying for the past couple hours. it's a 2MB download, so this should take all of 10 seconds maximum
14:28<xiong>Oh. Excessive patience.
14:28<DrSpangle>either something is wrong with whatever server is sending me the data, or something's wrong on my end, and i can't figure out what on earth the issue is
14:29*xiong clueless
14:29<DrSpangle>well, i guess i can try the ol' burn everything down and reinstall approach
14:30<TWerkhoven[l]>win7?
14:30<DrSpangle>x64, yes
14:31<DrSpangle>i'm using the /openttd-trunk-r23974-windows-win64 build
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14:31<TWerkhoven[l]>out-of-game downloads, do they work fine?
14:31<DrSpangle>they certainly do
14:31<DrSpangle>i'm not detecting any problems with my network in any sense
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14:36<DrSpangle>here's a headscratcer... the my documents\openttd\data\ folder is empty inside
14:36<DrSpangle>but when i extract files into there they want to be replaced
14:36<TWerkhoven[l]>i'm sure i saw something somewhere about people having trouble downloading stuff using win7 (not ottd related), cant find it right now
14:36<TWerkhoven[l]>o_O
14:36<TWerkhoven[l]>thats odd
14:36<TWerkhoven[l]>what does command prompt say?
14:37<DrSpangle>yes very, obviously i have show hidden files enabled
14:37<MNIM>DrSpangle: you tried making hidden files visible?
14:37<MNIM>..doh, ninja'd
14:37<TWerkhoven[l]>system files too i presume?
14:37<DrSpangle>naturally
14:39<TWerkhoven[l]>what does 'dir /a' say when in command prompt in that directory?
14:39<DrSpangle>just a moment
14:39<DrSpangle>... says it's empty
14:39<DrSpangle>this is truly bizarre
14:40<TWerkhoven[l]>theres a my documents in all users, and one in your specific profile
14:40<TWerkhoven[l]>is it possible your working in 2 different folders?
14:40<DrSpangle>it's possible, i'm verifying
14:41<DrSpangle>the path i verified in cmd was definitely the one associated with my user account
14:41<TWerkhoven[l]>so whats in the all user one
14:41<DrSpangle>also empty
14:41<DrSpangle>okay
14:41<DrSpangle>the problem i'm having is actually more bizarre than this
14:42<DrSpangle>i was extracting the files into that folder using 7zip, but the problem isn't that it's trying to overwrite the destination files, it's trying to overwrite an already extracted copy of this in a temporary folder, then copy it over
14:42<DrSpangle>but it's hanging now, at the confirm file replace messageox
14:43<DrSpangle>further, i've deleted the contents of that temporary folder, but it's still giving me the message when i attempt to extract again (after terminating the 7zip session of course)
14:43<DrSpangle>perhaps i'll just clear that temp folder again and restart
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14:46<andythenorth>michi_cc: wrt train offset - I don't code trains, I always forget about that var :P
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14:47<DrSpangle>okay
14:47<DrSpangle>i've met with some success
14:48<DrSpangle>i've also reinstalled all the grfs and done the whole shebang over, but i'm still getting jammed while downloading total town replacement
14:49*andythenorth considers adapting the BANDIT code to provide trains
14:49<andythenorth>and giving it to Neko
14:49<andythenorth>could I handle the support requests though? :P
14:50<andythenorth>maybe he could use CETS :D
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14:52<DrSpangle>still no luck
14:52<DrSpangle>i'm all but certain this is a problem with bananas
14:54<DrSpangle>can anyone suggest how i might be able to determine what's wrong
14:54<DrSpangle>it just seems that as soon as i hit these two packages to download, they're going SUPER slow
14:55<DrSpangle>to me, this suggests the server hosting it is messed up
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15:04<@planetmaker>which packages, DrSpangle?
15:06<andythenorth>hmm
15:06<andythenorth>how to profile python?
15:06<+michi_cc>DrSpangle: If you're using 1.2.0-something or trunk since the same time NewGRFs are in newgrf\ instead of data\ now.
15:06<andythenorth>or wait until the script is annoyingly slow?
15:11*andythenorth discovers cProfile
15:12<valhallasw>andythenorth: it's generally not really worth the effort
15:12<andythenorth>I'm not actually sure what I'd do with the findings :P
15:12<valhallasw>but cProfile works well, and there is a nice visualisation tool
15:12<valhallasw>let me check what the name is...
15:13<andythenorth>the code is optimised for ease of authors using its API, not for speed :P
15:13<valhallasw>http://www.vrplumber.com/programming/runsnakerun/
15:15<andythenorth>hoo
15:15<andythenorth>coloured polygons
15:17<andythenorth>hmm
15:17<andythenorth>I worry that my code scales badly though
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15:31<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: your sense of humour is very dry
15:31<andythenorth>or you miss roujin's point ;)
15:32<__ln__>http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/mar/02/police-privatisation-security-firms-crime
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16:13<Elu>private police... i bet that'll work just as well as private prisons!
16:13-!-Elu is now known as Elukka
16:13<Elukka>ie, huge profit and lots and lots of abuse
16:17<Nat_aS>It's been proven to be a bad idea in america
16:17<frosch123>andythenorth: i think he missed the point :)
16:17<Nat_aS>Even americans don't like rentacops
16:17<Nat_aS>and we LOVE privatization.
16:19<Elukka>parts of america even ban private prisons!
16:19<Nat_aS>and the ones that don't are gonna have to learn at some point.
16:20<Elukka>man will it ever be easy (easier) for the rich to get away with crime when the police force is privatized
16:20<Elukka>no need for expensive lawyers! just call in a favor and nobody will investigate
16:21<Nat_aS>how can we make this OTTD related?
16:21<Nat_aS>there should be more ways to lobby the local authority instead of just trees and bribery.
16:22<Elukka>:D
16:22<Nat_aS>like you should be able to build offices (not just the main office) in towns that cost upkeep but slowly raise the company rating.
16:22<Nat_aS>people say it's not a problem, but they don't play on jungle maps
16:22<Nat_aS>or try to build commuter rail.
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16:23<Nat_aS>although at the stage in the game when commuter rail is practical, you usualy have enough money to bribe your way into tearing the city in half to build a raill line
16:23<Nat_aS>and usualy have existing lines raising the opinion for you.
16:24<Nat_aS>another unrelated idea would be buying stock in non-transport companies
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16:24<Nat_aS>like factories and maybe even viechile manufacturers.
16:25<Nat_aS>and if you abuse it too much, the regional inspector could bust you for insider trading or having an illegal monopoly.
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16:59<Rhamphoryncus>Nat_aS: The best way to raise rating in the long term is to build a couple passenger or mail depots and service them well
17:00<Rhamphoryncus>gah, not depots. Stations :P
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17:24<Nat_aS>lol
17:24<Nat_aS>that's EFFORT though
17:24<Nat_aS>you have to micromanage busses
17:24<Nat_aS>It's so much easier to keep track of trains
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17:31<MINM>Meh
17:31<MINM>Shared orders fix that
17:31<Nat_aS>shared orders can be complicated to set up
17:31<MINM>Pretty easy.
17:32<Nat_aS>although I just learned that ctrl clicking when coping auto-shares.
17:32<MINM>make one vehicles with full order list, then Ctrl+clone as necessary
17:32<Nat_aS>I wish it also auto assigned to the same list
17:32<MINM>to the same vehicle group?
17:32<MINM>it should, if you pressed 'add shared vehicles' once - at least, that's what it seems to do for me
17:33<Nat_aS>maybe it does, I haven't checked in a while
17:33<Nat_aS>still we need more non station buildings that do things
17:33<Nat_aS>I liked the bars and hotels in RT3
17:33<NGC3982>evening.
17:33<MINM>...wat
17:34<MINM>why did I read that as 'whores and brothels?
17:34<MINM>:S
17:34<MINM>what the fuck, freud. NOT COOL
17:34<Nat_aS>lol, you could imagine them as that
17:34<Nat_aS>:P
17:36<Nat_aS>i had an idea for an erotic story once where a railroad company subsidized the whores that hung around the stations, Making sure they have vaccinations and such, and give a percentage of there earnings to the company, in exchange for free fares
17:36*Nat_aS has strange ideas sometimes.
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17:46<MINM>...0-o
17:46<MINM>I thought I was in another channel at once.
17:46<MINM>there's other places I go where I would expect that post sooner.
17:46<Nat_aS>lol
17:46<Nat_aS>same here
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18:08<NGC3982>:-o
18:10<Zuu>Hmm, after running squirrel_export.se which now seem to take significantly longer than before NoGo was merged, I found out that I was re-generating it for the wrong hg clone. :-)
18:11<Arafangion>Zuu: Using production machines by mistake? :)
18:11<NGC3982>http://i.imgur.com/TzsjD.png
18:11<NGC3982>do you see what i see?
18:11<Zuu>Good news, it didn't generate any differences when running it on plain trunk.
18:11<Arafangion>NGC3982: I see one carriage, which turns out to be two.
18:12<NGC3982>hehe, exactly.
18:12<NGC3982>something to report?
18:12<Arafangion>NGC3982: Also, the logo on that carriage is backwards.
18:13<Arafangion>Hmm, no it isn't.
18:13<Zuu>Arafangion: At least I used it on my "plain truck" respority which doesn't have any patch work. Instead I use this one to pull and then I clone from "plain trunk" to create working directories for different patch works.
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18:13<NGC3982>let's see what happends when it starts moving.
18:13<Arafangion>Zuu: Methodical.
18:14<Zuu>Its also faster than fetching sources from openttd.org each time you want a new working directory as I did before when I was using svn.
18:14<NGC3982>Arafangion: it solved itself.
18:15<NGC3982>a trip to the depot was enough to fix it.
18:15<Arafangion>Zuu: Yep... I'm a git fan, myself.
18:15<Zuu>With SSD, making a clone is instant. :-)
18:16<Arafangion>Zuu: With git, making a local clone will hard-link the object database. :)
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18:17<Zuu>Thats then even faster, but I guess that doesn't happen on Windows?
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18:19<Arafangion>Zuu: Don't know.
18:19<Arafangion>Zuu: I doubt it, although windows does support 'Junction points".
18:19<Zuu>I know there is some support for mounting disks at a directory in windows. Unsure if it supports symbolic/hard links.
18:20<Arafangion>It supports symbolic links with different semantics, and junction points which are kinda like a directory hard-link.
18:20<Arafangion>I've yet to find a real-world use of it, though.
18:24<DrSpangle>planetmaker and michi_cc: i am using trunk r23974. the instructions on the openttdcoop wiki told me to put the files into the /data/ folder, and that's done, but the issue is that i can't download the required packs i need to play there - av8 v1.81 and total town replacement 3.02a
18:24<DrSpangle>the downloads are just stopping at 1% and not going further, i've had them downloading for 3 hours now and it hasn't moved
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19:28<Wolf01>'night
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19:58<frosch123>night
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19:59<Zuu>Hmm, I've hit a strange error where CmdSellVehicle thinks that the vehicle is not in the depot when it is called from a GS.
20:00<Zuu>I tried to set the current road type and have stepped thoght the CmdSellVehicle code without figuring out why it doesn't work. Selling the same vehicle via GUI works fine.
20:01<Zuu>But it's getting late now. I'll have to look into it more another day or just report it to bugs.openttd.org and hope that it's not my fault. :-)
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---Logclosed Sun Mar 04 00:00:30 2012