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#openttd IRC Logs for 2012-03-04

---Logopened Sun Mar 04 00:00:30 2012
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01:59<sponge>http://www.tt-wiki.net/wiki/NMLTutorial/Train_four_part_refit#Tractive_effort_coefficient
02:00<sponge>Yet, when I try to set a callback for the property, NML gives an error that it expects a constant value.
02:01<andythenorth>paste?
02:02<sponge>http://pastebin.ca/2123953
02:02<andythenorth>sponge: also....topical ;) http://www.eurobricks.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=66714
02:02<sponge>line 108
02:03<sponge>haha
02:03-!-tokai|mdlx [~tokai@port-92-195-250-20.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
02:04<sponge>too bad he made the station and wagons so small
02:04<andythenorth>sponge: set the value of that property to some default, then we need to call the callback from the graphics{ } block
02:04<sponge>andythenorth: the graphics block has a coeffecient property too?
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02:05<andythenorth>"The following callbacks all have an equivalent property. The property description applies here also, except where otherwise noted."
02:05<andythenorth>http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/NML:Vehicles#Vehicle_callbacks
02:05<andythenorth>so you add tractive_effort_coefficient to the graphics block to use the cb
02:06<andythenorth>I could explain this in terms of raw newgrf if it helps, but maybe not needed
02:06<sponge>andythenorth: my switch is bad
02:06<sponge>bad expression in switch
02:06<sponge>the TTwiki has some subtle differences from openttd and modern nml
02:07<sponge>andythenorth: is there an easier way to just have power to the lead car?
02:08<sponge>and in the case of the c20 only for 2/3 of the cars
02:08<andythenorth>hmm
02:08<andythenorth>I don't code trains
02:08<andythenorth>is there a powered wagon cb?
02:09<sponge>its set to 0
02:09<andythenorth>visual_effect_and_powered
02:10<andythenorth>set to DISABLE_WAGON_POWER ?
02:10*andythenorth is guessing now
02:10<andythenorth>the way you're using is fine, but you would better use hp (power) not TE
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02:11<andythenorth>final tractive effort is a calculation of (hp * TE coefficient * physics stuff)
02:12<andythenorth>so setting hp to 0 or some value is the correct way to do this - otherwise vehicle info reports too much power
02:12<andythenorth>you can leave te coefficient at default if you do that
02:12<sponge>ok, and use callback?
02:12<andythenorth>yes
02:13<andythenorth>or make a new vehicle ID for unpowered vehicles, but that duplicates a lot of code and wastes buy menu space
02:13<sponge>how do I write a switch to return that value?
02:13<andythenorth>looks to me like you did already
02:13<andythenorth>does you te switch not work?
02:13<sponge>get bad expression error
02:14<sponge>"This expression is not supported in a switch-block"
02:15<sponge>the power switch works, just not the traction
02:16<andythenorth>do you have 2/3 in the switch block somewhere
02:16<andythenorth>?
02:17<sponge>no, static values
02:17<sponge>but in any case, here's what works now: only the lead car has power
02:18<sponge>coefficient 1.0 means full hp to tracks, right?
02:18<andythenorth>not quite
02:19<andythenorth>coefficient more or less represents the friction between wheel and surface
02:19<andythenorth>1.0 is an insanely high value for steel on steel ;)
02:19<sponge>yeah.
02:19<sponge>0.3 default should do
02:19<andythenorth>yes
02:20<andythenorth>otherwise you'll be way out of balance with other sets ;)
02:20<andythenorth>I'd leave it at default usually
02:21<sponge>acceleration is looking good
02:21<sponge>the c1 rarely reaches top speed of 80km/h
02:21<sponge>goes down to 60 in the corner
02:21<sponge>c14 is slightly better with it's additional 80k
02:21<sponge>the c20 has no problem getting up to speed.
02:24<sponge>it has more than twice the power of the c14, so...
02:24<sponge>andythenorth: where did you think i should UL this?
02:24<andythenorth>bananas
02:24<andythenorth>http://bananas.openttd.org
02:27<sponge>ok, im registered, how do I UL? :)
02:28<andythenorth>you need to choose a license (use GPL)
02:28<sponge>that site seems rather incomplete
02:28<andythenorth>:)
02:28<andythenorth>for GPL you need a license.txt in your zip
02:28<sponge>if you press profile all you get is "index" and "profile" menus
02:29<sponge>oh i thought the newgrf's came in tar
02:29<andythenorth>they can
02:29<andythenorth>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/bandit/repository/entry/docs/license.txt
02:29<andythenorth>copy that ^
02:30<sponge>I want to use this: http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/sharedsource/enterprise-source-licensing-program.aspx
02:30<andythenorth>good luck :P
02:30<andythenorth>you might also write a readme.txt
02:37<sponge>there
02:37<sponge>put in the gpl 3 clause everywhere needed
02:37<sponge>a quick readme thingsy
02:38<sponge>andythenorth: im guessing bananas doesnt provide any repository or a way to upload?
02:41<andythenorth>sponge: once you're logged in, go here: http://bananas.openttd.org/en/manager/
02:49<sponge>and use zip, not tar?
02:50<andythenorth>tar is fine afaik
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03:04<sponge>andythenorth: should I also put sources and everything into what is the downloadable content file?
03:04<dsdeiz>hi is there a way to explicitly set the screen resolution openttd in windowed mode?
03:04<sponge>dsdeiz: game options?
03:05<sponge>under "screen resolution"
03:06<dsdeiz>any way to add a new screen resolution on that option?
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03:08<sponge>dsdeiz: how come you cant just resize the window?
03:10<dsdeiz>i can though if i do that i need to resize it everytime i start the game :(
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03:12<sponge>dsdeiz: can't you tell your window manager to lock the geometry of the window?
03:12<sponge>i do it on both icewm, fluxbox and compiz
03:15<dsdeiz>oh. hm, not sure how to do that but will try. thx! i'm using xmonad if that helps
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03:19<andythenorth>sponge: if the source is small, bundling it with the grf is fine / good
03:19<andythenorth>if it's hundreds of KB, or several MB, make a devzone project for it...
03:19<andythenorth>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/
03:23<sponge>dsdeiz: isnt xmonad tiling?
03:23<sponge>dsdeiz: it's possibly to do this through Xresources
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03:54<sponge>where is a list of what colours are used for company?
03:55<andythenorth>newgrf wiki somewhere
03:55<andythenorth>1 min
03:55<sponge>i see
03:55<andythenorth>http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/PalettesAndCoordinates
03:58<Zuu>dsdeiz: You can access the game options window in-game as well as from the main menu.
03:59<Zuu>You find it in the same menu as save/load scenarios.
04:00<@Terkhen>good morning
04:00<Zuu>Morning Terkhen
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04:44<Wolf01>'morning o/
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04:56<Eddi|zuHause>*gähn*
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05:13<andythenorth>+1
05:14*andythenorth has to make a design decision and is stumped
05:14<andythenorth>+ve y on the canvas: up or down?
05:15<andythenorth>- the correct answer in coding is usually 'down'
05:15<Arafangion>andythenorth: Actually, it's generally up these days.
05:15<andythenorth>- the correct answer in most GUI bitmap editors (and I think, most people's intuition) is up
05:15<Arafangion>andythenorth: Mathematically, it should be up.
05:15<Arafangion>andythenorth: But, winforms has it down.
05:16<andythenorth>Flash has it down, and I spent 7 years far too intimately with Flash :P
05:16<andythenorth>confusingly, the Flash drawing tools treat it as up iirc
05:16<Arafangion>andythenorth: It seems a bit silly now, but the reason that some (legacy?) GUI toolkits had it down was to optimise rendering while keeping in mind the scan rate of the CRT's.
05:16<andythenorth>yeah, afaik it's a scanline-optimised co-ordinate system
05:16<Arafangion>Mac OS X's Cocoa lets you toggle it rather easily (elegantly, even), but it defaults to up.
05:17<andythenorth>I can work with it 'up' throughout my API, but the code expects 'down'
05:17<Rubidium>andythenorth: take the worst solution and add some buzz words to it
05:17<Arafangion>So flip it?
05:17<Rubidium>so... start from the middle
05:17<Arafangion>It's actually not a big deal.
05:17<Rubidium>flip x and y
05:17<andythenorth>so anyone who subclasses Pixa stuff to extend it will run smack into inverted y
05:17<andythenorth>Rubidium: x and y :P
05:17<Arafangion>No, x is remarkably consistent, it's y that flips.
05:18<andythenorth>Rubidium is trolling again :P
05:18<andythenorth>someone should kick him
05:18<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: mostly screen-coordinates have y=0 at the top
05:18<Arafangion>Eddi|zuHause: Not on the mac os x.
05:18<andythenorth>PIL has origin top left
05:18<Arafangion>Not sure if that's true in Xorg either.
05:18<sponge>in my experience, y=0 at the top comes from the fact that nearly all video chipsets had top left as memory offset 0
05:18<andythenorth>PIL is the significant issue here tbh
05:19<andythenorth>I have no problem flipping it so +ve y is up
05:19<andythenorth>it's kind of done already
05:19<Rubidium>andythenorth: actually, some geographic datums have x and y swapped
05:19<andythenorth>ho. why? :)
05:19<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: if you do pixel-by-pixel scans, starting at the top and going in reading-direction feels more natural
05:19<Rubidium>andythenorth: good question ;)
05:20<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: I could also make it configurable, but that's a bit of an arse
05:20<Eddi|zuHause>that seems somewhat silly
05:20<Eddi|zuHause>just pick one and stick with it
05:20<Rubidium>configurable by XML ofcourse
05:21<andythenorth>I want to pick 'up'. But I'm leaving dragons lurking for those who want to extend my classe :P
05:21<andythenorth>ach, if they know how to extend a class, they can handle inverting y
05:21<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: openttd internally also has y as "down"
05:21<andythenorth>this is true
05:21<andythenorth>nfo offsets work that way
05:22<Eddi|zuHause>as do pretty much all pixel-editors i know
05:22<andythenorth>yeah, actually I was mistaken there, photoshop has y = 0,0
05:22<andythenorth>oops, origin = top left
05:22<andythenorth>typing ahead of thinking :P
05:23<sponge>it's a legacy from the time when you needed to handle video memory directly.
05:23<sponge>who ever made the first one felt it natural to go from left to right and then down
05:23<Rubidium>anyhow, in google maps enter something like 52.0 5.0. That will show you you basically enter them in y x (and y goes up from the bottom)
05:23<sponge>(which also happens to be the orientation for western text)
05:24<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: but they call it "North" and "East"
05:24*andythenorth might use origin top-left
05:24<andythenorth>which means rewriting a lot of stuff already written
05:24<andythenorth>but what else is code for, except rewriting?
05:25<Arafangion>Reading for fun and pleasure?
05:25<Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: that's just some label you add to it
05:25*Zuu is amused about his vehicle that is in depot, but GS thinks not
05:26<andythenorth>Zuu: is it stopped in depot, but not actually in depot?
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05:26<Rubidium>Zuu: is it a train?
05:26<andythenorth>yesterday I somehow managed to crash two vehicles in a depot, one was stopped
05:26<Zuu>Its a road vehicle. And it doesn't show if I make the depot transparent.
05:26<sponge>andythenorth: sometimes trains jump to other tracks
05:27<sponge>like foxes over fences
05:27<Zuu>I have a mini-GS that demonstrates a problem in SendVehicleToDepot. It was planed to show a problem in SellVehicle but got problems earlier already. :-)
05:27<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: something similar happens with mathematical and physicist diagrams. the name for a mathematical diagram is "x-y-diagram", but for a physicaist diagram it's an "y-x-diagram" (where y and x denote some measurements)
05:28*andythenorth hopes missile control systems avoid using multiple co-ordinate directions
05:28<Zuu>hmm, no. that problem with my mini-GS was later solved by setting company mode
05:28<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: when not even mars probes properly handle unit conversions?
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05:29<Jogio>hi together
05:29<andythenorth>so who would like to rewrite my code for me?
05:29<Arafangion>andythenorth: For how much? ;)
05:29<andythenorth>20p
05:30<andythenorth>it's only swapping the sign on a load of items in tuples
05:30<@Terkhen>hi Jogio
05:30<Arafangion>Why not use an editor macro?
05:30<andythenorth>I could just patch what I have already in the code
05:30<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: sounds like a job for a regexp :p
05:30<@Terkhen>andythenorth: as long as the requirements are low enough I can rewrite your code for free
05:30<andythenorth>requirements = '' ?
05:30<@Terkhen>"this code does not need to have any functionality at all"
05:31<andythenorth>I could just plug a transform into the render pipeline: dy = -1 * dy
05:31<andythenorth>the lazy solution using the API :P
05:31<Arafangion>Might as well.
05:32<andythenorth>leaves code debt lying around though :P
05:32<Eddi|zuHause>#TODO: clean this up
05:32<andythenorth>always such fun
05:33<Arafangion>andythenorth: Not really, as long as it all stays consistent.
05:33<Arafangion>andythenorth: A transform is routine.
05:33<Jogio>planetmaker here? I changed 4 little strings in translation, one was a clear typo. Just that you know.
05:33<@planetmaker>ok :-)
05:34<Jogio>hi xD . Then all is fine. :-)
05:37*andythenorth incurs where and tear on his '-' key :P
05:37<andythenorth>where / wear /s
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05:52<@Terkhen>ooh, a new spanish translator
06:15<andythenorth>hmm
06:15<andythenorth>'origin' or 'centerpoint' ?
06:15<andythenorth>make_a_bitmap_a_pixa_sequence(file, origin)
06:17<andythenorth>it specifies a center point when drawing the sequence
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07:38<@Alberth>moin
07:41<andythenorth>Alberth: o/
07:42<@Alberth>Pixa insanely ricx already? :D
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07:45<andythenorth>best suggestion yet :)
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07:50<@Alberth>a boring one would be Pixa is for graphix artists ;)
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09:04<_maddy>anyone up for a multiplayer game guys?
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09:15<Rubidium>Zuu: does the tutorial GS actually use the AI order flags?
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09:22*andythenorth invents arbitrary scaling of generated sequences: http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/2553/foo.png
09:22<andythenorth>that's 30x
09:22<andythenorth>:P
09:22<andythenorth>smoothing is not included :P
09:25<andythenorth>the actual purpose is to make this: http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/2554/foo2.png
09:26-!-peteris is now known as pecisk
09:27<@Alberth>could be useful
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09:29<andythenorth>prize for telling me what that zoomed in sprite is
09:30<Rubidium>a coil of steel or so?
09:31<andythenorth>Rubidium wins
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10:27<Zuu>Rubidium: The tutorial GS doesn't use the AIOF_* constants.
10:27<Zuu>So it shouldn't be using order flags.
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11:33<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r24003 /branches/1.2/ (6 files in 4 dirs):
11:33<CIA-1>OpenTTD: [1.2] -Backport from trunk:
11:33<CIA-1>OpenTTD: - Fix: Do not load a game during UpdateWindows as that might trigger changing the blitter which triggers re-entrant locking (r23980, r23977)
11:33<CIA-1>OpenTTD: - Fix: [SDL] Palette update was done too late making switching from 8bpp -> 32bpp look ugly (r23978)
11:33<CIA-1>OpenTTD: - Fix: Sprites of different zoom levels were not always padded correctly to a common size (r23976)
11:33<CIA-1>OpenTTD: - Fix: Also save the maximum travel speed for the current vehicle order (r23973)
11:38<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r24004 /branches/1.2/ (8 files in 4 dirs):
11:38<CIA-1>OpenTTD: [1.2] -Backport from trunk:
11:38<CIA-1>OpenTTD: - Fix: Zero the offsets of disabled zoomlevels, so they do not influence offset calculations (r23989)
11:38<CIA-1>OpenTTD: - Fix: Invalid reads when scaling an odd-sized sprite smaller (r23986)
11:38<CIA-1>OpenTTD: - Fix: Inconsistent quit/abandon/exit game/scenario/editor strings [FS#5074] (r23985)
11:38<CIA-1>OpenTTD: - Fix: Tarred heightmaps would not be found [FS#5083] (r23983)
11:39<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r24005 /branches/1.2/ (33 files in 4 dirs):
11:39<CIA-1>OpenTTD: [1.2] -Backport from trunk:
11:39<CIA-1>OpenTTD: - Fix: Fix the order of lights on the helipad [FS#5082] (r23984)
11:39-!-cypher [~Miranda@ip-86-49-67-69.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
11:40<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r24006 /trunk/ (9 files in 5 dirs): -Fix [FS#5088]: AI used in names in API for GSOrder
11:43<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r24007 /branches/1.2/ (57 files in 4 dirs):
11:43<CIA-1>OpenTTD: [1.2] -Backport from trunk:
11:43<CIA-1>OpenTTD: - Fix: Improve rounding when converting display speeds to internal speeds [FS#5079] (r23995)
11:43<CIA-1>OpenTTD: - Fix: Also reset the font glyph cache when switching blitters (r23992, r23987)
11:43<CIA-1>OpenTTD: - Fix: [NewGRF] Also display the cargo subtype for vehicles which have no capacity, but a subtype [FS#5076] (r23991)
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11:54<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r24008 /trunk/src/script/api/ (22 files): -Cleanup/doc: try not to mention (No)AI in script APIs
11:56<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r24009 /branches/1.2/ (30 files in 6 dirs):
11:56<CIA-1>OpenTTD: [1.2] -Backport from trunk:
11:56<CIA-1>OpenTTD: - Fix: [Script] AI used in names in API for GSOrder [FS#5088] (r24006)
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12:01<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r24010 /branches/1.2/ (. src/fontcache.h): [1.2] -Fix: forgot to backport r23992
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12:09<CIA-1>OpenTTD: translators * r24011 /trunk/src/lang/ (5 files in 2 dirs):
12:09<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
12:09<CIA-1>OpenTTD: catalan - 1 changes by arnau
12:09<CIA-1>OpenTTD: german - 4 changes by Jogio
12:09<CIA-1>OpenTTD: italian - 1 changes by Snail_
12:09<CIA-1>OpenTTD: tamil - 24 changes by aswn
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12:11<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r24012 /trunk/src/lang/luxembourgish.txt: -Fix (r24011): Luxembourgish got messed up by accident
12:12<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r24013 /branches/1.2/src/lang/ (40 files in 2 dirs): [1.2] -Backport language updates from trunk
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12:16<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r24014 /branches/1.2/ (6 files in 4 dirs): [1.2] -Prepare for 1.2.0-RC2
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12:22<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r24015 /tags/1.2.0-RC2/: -Release: 1.2.0-RC2
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13:24*andythenorth ponders
13:24<andythenorth>can I compare two tuples?
13:25<SpComb>yes
13:25<NGC3982>if tuples is the word for tits in your local language, sure!
13:25<SpComb>oh, I thought he meant the Python tuples thing
13:25<SpComb>nevermind then!
13:26<@planetmaker>you can compare everything. But some comparisons are tasteless, others meaningless, yet others invalid and yet even others... useful
13:27<andythenorth>this one turns out to be useful
13:27<andythenorth>it even works usefully when the second tuple is None
13:27<andythenorth>:)
13:27<SpComb>less than/greater than comparisons can error out
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13:32<andythenorth>it's a straightforward == ;) but thanks
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13:35<andythenorth>cheatsheets: now with optional display of a custom origin (in pink)
13:35<andythenorth> http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/2555/test_coil.png
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13:35<andythenorth>the origin indicates where the pixel generator will begin drawing
13:36<andythenorth>the numbers are of course palette indexes :D
13:36<andythenorth>biab
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13:58<Zuu>Hmm, it helps to use the correct vehicle id variable when trying to sell them.
13:58<Zuu>Which is also why OpenTTD rejected me selling a vehicle and told that it was not in the depot.
14:04<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: on immutable objects, comparison is usually by hash (i.e. memory location)
14:10<@Yexo>not on tuples
14:10<@Yexo>on other objects it is by default (no matter if they're immutable or not), unless you implement a __cmp__ function yourself
14:10<Eddi|zuHause>i wrote that wrong, yes
14:12<Eddi|zuHause>i meant to say: "on objects it is usually done by hash, but immutable objects are usually singletons"
14:16<Eddi|zuHause>and if you implement __cmp__ you probably should also implement __hash__
14:17<@Alberth>Eddi|zuHause: by 'id', actually
14:18<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: i'm pretty sure that "id(object)" is the same as "object.__hash__()"
14:19<@Alberth>but hashing is used for sets/dicts, not for equality
14:20<Eddi|zuHause>i should probably stop this discussion, as i am dangerously close to the limits of my half-knowledge :p
14:20<@Yexo>but there are indeed rules that if you implement __cmp__ you also have to implement __hash__
14:20<@Yexo>or the other way around, not sure, I think the way I wrote it
14:21<Eddi|zuHause>i vaguely remember falling into that trap before
14:21*Alberth normally disables __cmp__ and uses __eq__ and __ne__
14:22<Eddi|zuHause>that doesn't really change anything
14:23<@Alberth>Eddi|zuHause: equality implies equal hash, but not the other way around
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14:23<Eddi|zuHause>yes, so if you implement __eq__, you also have to implement __hash__ to fulfil that condition
14:24<Eddi|zuHause>whether you implement __eq__ or __cmp__ doesn't matter in that case
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14:29<@Alberth>it prevents accidental use of __lt__ / __gt__ comparisons :)
14:30<Eddi|zuHause>yes
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14:45<NGC3982>is there any perticular reason why i cant sell a depot, but simply destroy them?
14:46<@Alberth>same as tracks?
14:49<NGC3982>uhm ..no?
14:49<NGC3982>or what am i missing :)
14:50<@Alberth>you don't sell tracks and bridges either, so why would you dell depots?
14:51<andythenorth>so wrt tuple comparison :P
14:51<andythenorth>"if (x,y) == origin: stuff"
14:51<andythenorth>where origin is assumed to be a tuple or None (it's unguarded though)
14:52<andythenorth>and I only care to get the result when they're equal...
14:52<andythenorth>ok?
14:52<andythenorth>or dangerous?
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14:57<NGC3982>Alberth: a correction, i cant remove it (as i can with a station) without using the bomb-button.
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15:00<@Alberth>correct, same as bridges thus
15:01<@Alberth>andythenorth: I'd test explicitly for non-None-ness, but that's me :p
15:01<@Alberth>if origin is not None and (x,y) == origin: ...
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15:03<@Alberth>NGC3982: you can use other tools with tracks & stations, as you often want to keep other parts of the same structure
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15:03<@Alberth>but a depot is 1 tile exactly
15:03<andythenorth>Alberth: done
15:03*andythenorth could use a code review, although...it's growed :P
15:03<NGC3982>Alberth: ah, i understand.
15:03<NGC3982>Alberth: thank you
15:03<andythenorth>might be coming time to figure out how to package this thing
15:04<@Alberth>same as nml?
15:05<andythenorth>some kind of easy_install or setup.py or such?
15:05<andythenorth>maybe I should revisit buildout :P
15:05<@Alberth>didn't you make that?
15:05<andythenorth>someone I know made it
15:05<andythenorth>the buildout part fails :P
15:05<andythenorth>we ought to revisit how nml is packaged, but it's felt to be mostly solved
15:06<andythenorth>however I don't like that it includes things that are known broken :(
15:06<@Alberth>oh, the hg revision thingie?
15:07<NGC3982>http://i.imgur.com/4xdHL.jpg
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15:09*Alberth switched from distutils to autoconf tools, and it works great....... at unix systems :p
15:10<@Yexo>andythenorth: I don't disagree that the nml packages might have to be revised, however I haven't seen any complains from people who failed to install it, and there are more interesting things to work on
15:10<andythenorth>yarp
15:10<andythenorth>I think I'm just unfamiliar with the methods
15:10<andythenorth>the frameworks I normally use are buildout driven, or very occasionally, virtual-env
15:10<andythenorth>to isolate them
15:11<@Alberth>that a separate issue, isn't it?
15:11<andythenorth>so rather than system-wide module installs, I'm used to isolating deps for a specific project
15:11<andythenorth>kind of separate yes
15:11*Alberth used Combinator tools for python projects
15:11<andythenorth>although afaict, nmlc requires a system wide PIL, PLY and nml
15:12<andythenorth>I have very limited knowledge, I'm normally just a buildout user, or someone else setsup a virtual-env on my box for me
15:12<@Alberth>no, they just need to be findable on the PYTHONPATH
15:13<@Alberth>(just like all modules :p )
15:13<@Alberth>I'd not bother with virtual-env. If a user wants it, he can make it himself
15:14<andythenorth>hmm
15:14<andythenorth>that's a common conclusion :)
15:15<@Alberth>of course it is; how else are you going to do virtual-env of a random selection of modules
15:16<@Alberth>ie if both nml and pixa would do their own virtual-env, I cannot combine them any more
15:16<andythenorth>ah ok
15:17<andythenorth>so normally I'm using (relatively) massive web frameworks, with easy_install or something else pulling down 1 bazillion modules / eggs / whatever from pypi or other locations
15:17<andythenorth>and normally all that goes in a buildout (or - rarely - a virtual-env)
15:18<andythenorth>so...I guess buildout simply sets a search paths
15:18<andythenorth>maybe
15:18<andythenorth>anyway it's not critical here :)
15:18<@Alberth>could be, I never looked into those things
15:18<andythenorth>the goal in those cases is to isolate projects entirely
15:19<@Alberth>Combinator does it for branches in the svn
15:19<@Alberth>so you can run code in one branch , and still be able to switch branch in a single command
15:19<andythenorth>Alberth: got a link?
15:20<andythenorth>google only finds Y-combinator stuff
15:20<@Alberth>hmm, the inventors went bankrupt, it moved to github or bitbucket or so, let me see whether I can find it
15:21<@Alberth>http://twistedmatrix.com/trac/wiki/UltimateQualityDevelopmentSystem <-- that's the development method they used
15:22<@Alberth>https://launchpad.net/divmod.org <-- the code/project
15:23<andythenorth>thanks
15:24<andythenorth>so for Pixa, should I just move it to its own repo, and those interested will be able to figure it out?
15:24<andythenorth>I have no idea how they'd include it into a project
15:24<andythenorth>something like svn externals?
15:25<andythenorth>or add to the module search path I guess
15:26<@Alberth>http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~divmod-dev/divmod.org/trunk/files <-- trunk of divmod :)
15:27<@Alberth>just as nml, have the root package dir next to the 'run' script
15:27<@Alberth>ie the script dir is automagically added by Python in its PYTHONPATH
15:28<@Alberth>that's why nmlc can do 'from nml import ....'
15:29<andythenorth>that's the connection I couldn't make
15:29<andythenorth>if you checkout say...BANDIT...you need to be able to get fewest number of deps
15:30<@Alberth>if you have code that a user is supposed to modify, rename it to foo_example.py or so, so users can make foo.py rather than messing up source file under the VCS
15:30<andythenorth>I'd consider shipping Pixa inside the project to reduce deps - but then how do authors pull changes?
15:31<@Alberth>hmm, good point
15:31<@Alberth>why does it work with nml?
15:31<andythenorth>you have to install nml separately
15:31<@Alberth>oh, I don't include it in my project, of course :p
15:32<andythenorth>it doesn't come with the project
15:32<NGC3982>how can i use rcon <password> "command" - if there is no rcon password set?
15:32<@Yexo>you can't
15:32<andythenorth>it's just a different approach to some of the python web frameworks I guess, which try to avoid separate deps
15:33<andythenorth>if you want to deploy 200 clients to production servers, you don't want to arse about with the deps for each one :P
15:33<andythenorth>different context
15:33<@Alberth>but you then also don't run trunk at the 200 clients, do you :)
15:33<andythenorth>no, you run known good sets if you have any sanity
15:34<andythenorth>running trunk is proven to impinge on drinking time
15:34<andythenorth>or sleeping
15:34<andythenorth>or making profit
15:34<@Alberth>'tick those that apply'
15:34<andythenorth>it's not xor ;)
15:35<@Alberth>luckily not, or you cannot make money while sleeping :p
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15:35*Zuu just re-invented sign commands :-)
15:35<andythenorth>\o/
15:36<NGC3982>Yexo: if i already have a server running (and doesnt wish to terminate it) with no rcon password set - im pretty much face down stuck.
15:36<NGC3982>i guess
15:37<Zuu>You could connect as client to download the savegame and restore from it if you take town the server.
15:37<Zuu>All company passwords wolud however then be lost.
15:37<Zuu>would*
15:37<+glx>you can also access the console on the server
15:37<@Yexo>NGC3982: connect to the server over ssh and (if you have it running in a screen session) use that as console
15:38<NGC3982>i cant.
15:38<NGC3982>it's on windows..
15:38<NGC3982>although, i have physical access to the computer running it.
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15:40<@Yexo>if you can access the console there you might be able to set an rcon password
15:40<NGC3982>oh, yes! oh yes!
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15:54<@Alberth>andythenorth: you needed line drawing? http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/1174/ although the 'put' function may be unneeded for you
15:54<andythenorth>I was just too lazy to look up the PIL spec :D
15:55<@Alberth>http://effbot.org/imagingbook/ I have it bookmarked :p
15:55<andythenorth>draw.line()
15:56<@Alberth>apparently :p
15:56<@Alberth>my width is not broken; it simply does not have such a parameter :)
15:58<andythenorth>what I should really do is figure out how to centre the index numbers in cheatsheets :P
15:58<andythenorth>clearly very important
15:58<andythenorth>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/2555/test_coil.png
15:58<andythenorth>or perhaps right-align them
16:04<NGC3982>Yexo: thank you. >(
16:04<NGC3982>:)*
16:04<@Yexo>you're welcome
16:05<NGC3982>i actually didnt realize i could write commands directly in the openttd server-program
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16:19<@Alberth>good night
16:19<andythenorth>bye Alberth
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16:46<andythenorth>can python multi-thread?
16:47<TrueBrain>it can
16:47<TrueBrain>but it has a global place it does things, which makes it poor for certain applications
16:47<TrueBrain>that was no english .. hmm ...
16:47<TrueBrain>I guess a better answer is: python can make threads
16:47<TinoDidriksen>But the global lock limits the usability of them.
16:48<TinoDidriksen>Though they reduced the lock in Python3
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16:48<TrueBrain>but its still there :(
16:48<andythenorth>but I could spawn multiple python processes? and distribute work between them?
16:48<NGC3982>hey
16:48<TrueBrain>not so much a lock, more of a general storage, but meh
16:48<NGC3982>you guys know code
16:48<TinoDidriksen>andythenorth, sure
16:48<TrueBrain>andythenorth: sure
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16:48<NGC3982>please make me a star trek the next generation food processor.
16:49<TinoDidriksen>You mean a replicator?
16:49<andythenorth>but I'd have to use something not-python to start the processes?
16:49<TrueBrain>andythenorth: http://docs.python.org/library/threading.html ;)
16:49<NGC3982>TinoDidriksen: yes.
16:49<TinoDidriksen>andythenorth, I'm sure Python has a fork() equivalent which would spawn a whole process, not just a thread.
16:49<andythenorth>that's what I need
16:49<andythenorth>probably
16:49<TrueBrain>andythenorth: Python is pretty self-contained; you can do almost anything within Python :)
16:50<TrueBrain>but all this vague talk is not really helping anyone
16:50<andythenorth>their is zero requirement for them to share any data except input from disk, and some parameters passed when spawning a process
16:50<andythenorth>their / there /s
16:51<TrueBrain>data from disk, sounds like a job for mmap
16:51<andythenorth>it's a map type problem imho
16:51<andythenorth>I need to generate n pngs
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16:51<andythenorth>each is self contained
16:51<andythenorth>all the input is read-only, never modified during the process
16:52<TinoDidriksen>Embarrasingly parallel, is the term.
16:52<andythenorth>I can lock 1 of the thread units on my 4-thread CPU
16:52<andythenorth>I'm looking into a future where generating graphics takes 10 mins
16:52<andythenorth>2.5 mins would be better :P
16:52<TinoDidriksen>How many and how large PNGs? And what kind? Maybe OpenCL could help...
16:53<andythenorth>probably not a big enough problem
16:53<andythenorth>and I"m quite tied to python imaging library (PIL)
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16:54<andythenorth>but yes, it's embarrassingly parallel, once divided into segments, which is not too hard
16:54<TinoDidriksen>10 full minutes of image generation sounds like 1 million tiny PNGs, or 4 huge ones?
16:58<andythenorth>it's probably low thousands of small PNGs
16:58<andythenorth>10 mins might be exagaerated
16:58<TinoDidriksen>I hope so.
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16:59<andythenorth>~7 mins
16:59<andythenorth>at a guess
16:59<andythenorth>the code is not particularly optimised
17:00<TinoDidriksen>Plus it's Python.
17:00<andythenorth>building all the PNGs is not a frequent task...
17:00<andythenorth>still it would be nice to be able to run it at max speed
17:04<andythenorth>something like this: http://luispedro.org/software/jug
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17:16<andythenorth>monsieur bird
17:19*andythenorth a la bed, toute suite
17:19<andythenorth>bye
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17:34<@Terkhen>good night
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17:56<Wolf01>'night
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17:57<NGC3982>bon nuit
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18:14<frosch123>night
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19:37<Rhamphoryncus>Broken link: http://hg.openttdcoop.org/nml/raw-file/tip/docs/nml-language.html#block-town_names from http://wiki.openttd.org/Town_names
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19:58<+glx>Rhamphoryncus: http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/NML:Town_names
19:59<Rhamphoryncus>glx: doesn't say what styles is for and afaict styles is what makes it a top-level block
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20:00<+glx>but that was the link to the old doc I think
20:00<Rhamphoryncus>ahh
20:01<+glx>I just gave you the link to the current doc
20:01*Rhamphoryncus nods
20:01<+glx>town name block in NML doc
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---Logclosed Mon Mar 05 00:00:05 2012