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#openttd IRC Logs for 2012-03-05

---Logopened Mon Mar 05 00:00:05 2012
---Daychanged Mon Mar 05 2012
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00:33<andythenorth>bonjour
00:34<supermop>hi
00:34<supermop>up early?
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02:39<@peter1138>hexagonal numbers
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03:01-!-planetmaker changed the topic of #openttd to: 1.1.5, 1.2.0-RC2 | Website: *.openttd.org (translator: translator, server list: servers, wiki: wiki, patches & bug-reports: bugs, revision log: vcs, release info: finger) | Don't ask to ask, just ask | 'Latest' is not a valid version, ever | English only
03:01<@planetmaker>moin
03:05<andythenorth>moin planetmaker
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03:12*andythenorth ponders
03:12<andythenorth>starting n tasks (python) for embarrassingly parallel work
03:12<andythenorth>python? make? shell?
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04:05<andythenorth>bonjour le Pikka
04:06<Pikka>hi I'm Toni Babelony and what is GPL
04:06<Pikka>hello andythenorth
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04:08<andythenorth>Chateauneuf du Pape!
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04:15<Pikka>you filthy swine you
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04:17<andythenorth>oeuf sur la plat
04:17<andythenorth>http://www.bbc.co.uk/comedy/onlyfools/lingo/euro.shtml
04:17*andythenorth makes cargos
04:18<andythenorth>Pikka: a little something I made earlier: http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/2555/test_coil.png
04:18<andythenorth>it's a script that outputs those
04:19<andythenorth>not generally useful, but specifically useful when you want to know the colour of a pixel and cba to match by eye
04:19<Pikka>:)
04:19<Pikka>guess it depends on your graphics program, I can just ctrl-click :P
04:20<andythenorth>me too
04:20<andythenorth>but when writing out pixel sequences in code (or colour shifting them)...I prefer this :)
04:21<Pikka>ah, mmhm :)
04:21*andythenorth might have cargo sprite generation working later today
04:22<andythenorth>for each length 1/8 - 8/8, for each cargo, it will spit out a spritesheet with 4 load states
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04:23<andythenorth>it also now loads the cargo sprites from bitmap files. Writing them out by hand is....fun for a bit.
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04:24<andythenorth>Pikka: do you use photostrop, or the other one?
04:25<Pikka>the other one
04:25<Pikka>for pixellation, at least
04:25<andythenorth>layered files (xcf) ?
04:26<Pikka>I keep meaning to get into photoshop...
04:26<Pikka>no
04:26<Pikka>not that other one, another other one
04:26<andythenorth>I've found a psd-parsing module that seems to be able to work with layers
04:27<andythenorth>which might cut out a bit more of the arsing around
04:27<Pikka>hmm
04:28<Pikka>my graphics program is over 10 years old! :D
04:28<andythenorth>lolwut etc
04:28<Pikka>paintshop pro 7!
04:28<andythenorth>DanMacK has drawn many more sprites than me, to a better standard, with MS Paint :P
04:30<Pikka>yes but he's special!
04:30<Pikka>andy are you going to generate horses with pixa? :)
04:31<andythenorth>pixa-horse?
04:31<Pikka>yes
04:31<Pikka>or at least the horse-drawn wagons
04:31<andythenorth>hmm
04:32<Pikka>for the putting of non-generated horses in front of
04:32<andythenorth>can I use Zeph's instead? :P
04:32<Pikka>zephs are a bit big IMO :P
04:32<andythenorth>+1
04:32<Pikka>I could have a go at a horse
04:32<andythenorth>wagons are probably best drawn
04:32<andythenorth>they're so...weeny
04:32<Pikka>lol
04:32<Pikka>well
04:32<andythenorth>can composite loads on
04:33<Pikka>I could draw horses for HOVS and then you could use them for BANDIT
04:33<andythenorth>win win
04:33<andythenorth>and HEQS trams
04:33<andythenorth>horse drawn UKRS?
04:33<Pikka>yes
04:33<Pikka>no
04:33*andythenorth once invented vehicle type 'flock of sheep' :P
04:34<Pikka>lol
04:34<@planetmaker>carrying capacity: 1 bale of wool?
04:35<andythenorth>1t meat ;P
04:35<andythenorth>planetmaker: any idea if make can start parallel build tasks?
04:36<andythenorth>I know it has -j option, but that might be more magical than I can use
04:36<@planetmaker>a makefile does that automatically if used properly
04:36<@planetmaker>the -j option usually is only to *limit* the parallel threads
04:36<andythenorth>presumably I need to segment my build scripts to work that way
04:36<andythenorth>i.e. currently there's one monolithic python build script
04:37<@planetmaker>from my experience, things like NML as python scripts are 100% single-threaded
04:37<andythenorth>yes
04:37<@planetmaker>target: dep1 dep2 dep3
04:37<andythenorth>graphics generation however is embarrassingly parallel, and could be divided between n separate python processes
04:37<@planetmaker>is typical makefile usage to build dep1 dep2 and dep3 in parallel
04:37<andythenorth>ho ok
04:38<@planetmaker>but they *MUST* be independent of eachother
04:38<@planetmaker>or that of course fails
04:38<andythenorth>sure
04:38<andythenorth>well it's worth a try
04:38*andythenorth will remember it for later
04:38<@planetmaker>NewGRF building as it's now, there's not much to parallelise
04:39<@planetmaker>If you use something like pixa to create graphics: there's a lot to parallelise, though
04:39<@planetmaker>each could be done independently
04:39<andythenorth>ogfx xcf extraction maybe same
04:40<@planetmaker>that is actually parallelised on the makefile level. But fails due to gimp instances messing with eachother
04:40<@planetmaker>if we use what frosch suggested, the xcf2png programme, it's a solved problem
04:40<@planetmaker>(and if that works in parallel)
04:40<andythenorth>pixa will use 100% of one of my CPU thread units
04:41<andythenorth>but I have 4 :P
04:42<Pikka>only 4?
04:43<andythenorth>think so
04:43*Pikka basks in the glow of his 8
04:43*andythenorth basks in the glow of his already too-hot laptop :P
04:44<Pikka>ah, laptops :)
04:44<Pikka>it's actually very hard to get fewer than 4 these days, I've just been costing a new computer for my grandmother
04:45<Pikka>even the $50 celeron is HT dual core...
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04:56*andythenorth is confused
04:56<andythenorth>why does Toni care if people modify his grf and distribute?
04:57<andythenorth>Pikka: you haven't drunk the GPL koolaid, any particular reason for you?
04:58<Pikka>I don't know why he does, but releasing under the GPL is a pretty silly thing to do if he does.
04:58<Pikka>I'd rather keep the option to tell people no, I guess andy. :)
04:58<andythenorth>can't argue with that
04:59<Pikka>also a not negligible number of things I release are still based on the original TTD graphics, so they're not mine to GPL in the first place. :P
04:59<Pikka>like TaI
05:00<andythenorth>that is a killer point
05:00*andythenorth would like to avoid a repeat ever of the silly CanSet situation though :)
05:00<Pikka>but little grfs I don't really care about I'll usually put under the gpl.
05:00<@planetmaker>well... it's not actually a killer point.
05:00<@planetmaker>Things based on them must not be released. You'd be liable this way or another
05:01<@planetmaker>Unless you have written permission
05:01<Pikka>well, yes planetmaker
05:01<@planetmaker>If you don't need that, then... GPL would make your stuff work beyond your death
05:01<@planetmaker>or loss of interest
05:01<@planetmaker>like TTRS or ISR
05:01<andythenorth>GPL based on copyright infringement is no GPL though :)
05:02<Pikka>lol
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05:03<andythenorth>planetmaker: they'll never find him anyway, he is like the scarlet pimpernel
05:03<Pikka>or the black fingernail
05:04<Pikka>hmm
05:04*Pikka notes to self: add "The Old Cock" to the pub names in TaI
05:04<andythenorth>you have pub names? :o
05:04<Pikka>yes
05:04<@planetmaker>Sometimes I think we should only allow GPL-based content on bananas ;-)
05:04<andythenorth>no need, just comply with takedown notices if it ever comes to that
05:05*Pikka is willing to take his chances
05:05*andythenorth has been using the Town part of TaI recently
05:05<Pikka>I imagine if they ever come after TaI they'll go after OpenTTD first. :P
05:05<andythenorth>think it might infringe the 'reverse engineering' part of a license agreement? :P
05:06<andythenorth>we can always start a legal fund, we might get as much as....$500
05:06<Pikka>:)
05:06<Pikka>I don't think it's going to happen either way.
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05:07<Pikka>and what do you think, andy?
05:07<andythenorth>if they discover that Rubidium is secretly a millionaire, they might go after him...
05:07<Pikka>accepting submissions of graphics for TaI, btw. :P
05:07<Pikka>*and what do you think about TaI, andy. :P
05:07<andythenorth>houses or industries?
05:08<Pikka>houses
05:08<andythenorth>I like TaI, it's original style, has lots of character, seems to just work
05:08<Pikka>:)
05:08<andythenorth>houses are not so much my thing
05:08<andythenorth>I drew one for opengfx once
05:08<Pikka>fair enough :P
05:08<Pikka>I'll get back into it soon. need proper 19th century houses
05:09<Pikka>and industries, but they're fairly well covered.
05:09<andythenorth>their are enough industry parts lying around now
05:09<Pikka>yes
05:09<Pikka>and I'm not adding that many
05:09<andythenorth>most of my new ones are made out of bits of old ones
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05:10<Pikka>are fertiliser and fmsp the same thing?
05:10<Pikka>I'm going to add a fertiliser factory to TaI
05:10<andythenorth>they have the same game effect
05:10<Pikka>that makes fertiliser out of nothing :D
05:10<andythenorth>nitrogen fixing process?
05:10<Pikka>mmhm
05:10<andythenorth>deliver electricity :P
05:10<andythenorth>lots of electricity
05:11<Pikka>anyway, it will be the "interesting" mechanism I've been looking for for farms and forests.
05:11*andythenorth wants to extend the map array, to store electricity value on each tile
05:11<Pikka>lol
05:11<andythenorth>items on the tile can have +ve or -ve effect on electricity values
05:11*planetmaker thinks that town sizes / growth should be taken out of TAI and put in a separate but to-be-used-with-it game script
05:12<andythenorth>electricity values propogate over n tiles
05:12<Pikka>I don't.
05:12<@planetmaker>You're wrong :-P
05:12<Pikka>well
05:12<@planetmaker>NewGRFs are about controlling the single entities. Towns are global entities
05:13<Pikka>currently I'd guess about 80% of people miss out on the town growth limits, because they use TaI with another house set.
05:13<@planetmaker>Global entities are for game scripts
05:13<Pikka>if I took the growth limits out of the town set and put them in a game script, that number would change to about 100%
05:13<@planetmaker>And another 50% complain that towns don't grow
05:13<Pikka>well
05:13<Pikka>I need to improve the documentation and the feedback in-game (like by adding those town halls)
05:14<@planetmaker>NewGRFs have no interface for that while GameScripts are designed to handle exactly that
05:14<@planetmaker>When a NewGRF is asked to "grow town" it should also do that
05:14<andythenorth>planetmaker: but we currently have no clean interface between newgrf and NoGo afaik?
05:14<@planetmaker>We do have
05:14<andythenorth>oh :o
05:14<andythenorth>I missed that :)
05:14<@planetmaker>or rather: what interface do you need?
05:15<@planetmaker>NewGRFs provided houses
05:15<@planetmaker>Scripts provide town growth conditions
05:15<andythenorth>but the town growth conditions depend on the type of town
05:15<andythenorth>as do the house choices
05:15<andythenorth>so who has proper domain over that? newgrf or NoGo?
05:15<andythenorth>and how do they communicate?
05:15<Pikka>planetmaker; afaic this argument is like the one about the production mechanisms in PBI/TaI Industries
05:15<andythenorth>TownControl registers?
05:16<@planetmaker>Pikka: not sure what you mean. Can you refresh my memory?
05:16*andythenorth was unconvinced by any of the available arguments last time NoGo + newgrf were discussed, including his own
05:16<Pikka>the production limits are integral to the industry sets, if you take them out the grf becomes pointless
05:16<andythenorth>that's ok, production is clearly internal to an industry
05:16<andythenorth>closure is the grey area :P
05:16<Pikka>heh
05:16<@planetmaker>kinda
05:17<Pikka>well, deciding whether a house can be built is integral to a house? ;)
05:17<@planetmaker>whether a particular house can be built: yes
05:17<Pikka>yes
05:17<@planetmaker>or rather which
05:17<@planetmaker>but it should not decide yes/no on whether to build anything
05:17<andythenorth>but town expansion....global
05:18<Pikka>well, it doesn't decide yes/no on whether to build anything
05:18<andythenorth>global because it then opens the possibility of scripted scenarios, which might be rather fun to play
05:18<@planetmaker>now, that's playing words, Pikka :-)
05:18<@planetmaker>TaI clearly decides to not build houses anymore for certain date / town combinations
05:19<@planetmaker>which lead to ... endless wastelands of roads
05:19<Pikka>only if you play flat maps and grid roads :)
05:19<@planetmaker>I played neither
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05:19<@planetmaker>roads will be built, if no house can be built but the town is supposed to grow
05:20<@planetmaker>Thus the problem is independent of map style or road style
05:20<@planetmaker>Thus when I play with TaI I regularilly end up with this road wasteland
05:20<andythenorth>so how would the NewGRF communicate to NoGo that no houses can be built for this town, when NoGo calls grow_town() or such?
05:20<@planetmaker>(yes, I play mountainous, rough maps only)
05:21<@planetmaker>andythenorth: it's not a NewGRF decision to not build any house. Or should not be
05:21<andythenorth>but houses have availability cb
05:21<@planetmaker>The game script decides which town is supposed to grow
05:21<andythenorth>but no house may be available
05:21<@planetmaker>yes. And the NewGRF should always make one available
05:21<andythenorth>but that's not required by NewGRF spec....
05:21<@planetmaker>that's then a NewGRF bug or shortcoming
05:22<@planetmaker>shall I add it?
05:22<andythenorth>so NewGRF spec needs rewriting to accommodate NoGo....
05:22<andythenorth>it's same as cleaning up cargo classes mess
05:22<@planetmaker>It doesn't
05:22<@planetmaker>It just means that the NewGRF has to behave sanely basically
05:22<Rhamphoryncus>heya andy, planetmaker
05:22<andythenorth>spec as in 'how to use it' rather than 'code works like this'
05:23<andythenorth>the conventions etc
05:23<andythenorth>like python works if you ignore PEP-8, but if you want to work in a python project with others, not using PEP-8 gets you kicked around
05:23<Rhamphoryncus>I've only skimmed but have you looked at multiprocessing?
05:23<@planetmaker>andythenorth: NewGRFs *cannot* control town growth. House NewGRFs can *only* refuse to build a house. Which means towns will grow roads. And roads. And roads And ...
05:23<@planetmaker>That's like this since TTD
05:23<Pikka>planetmaker: sounds like something that can be improved in OpenTTD then :)
05:23<@planetmaker>Rhamphoryncus: please search the archives for multicore discussions
05:24<@planetmaker>Pikka: it's solved. It's done by game scripts
05:24<andythenorth>does game script query the newgrf house availabilty cb first?
05:24<Rhamphoryncus>Funny thing: Guido van Rossum (creator of python) now works for google and the work he does for them doesn't use PEP-8
05:24<@planetmaker>They have all means at their hands. If something is missing for town control, they should get it. Not house NewGRFs
05:24<Rhamphoryncus>planetmaker: it was a simple question
05:24<@planetmaker>house NewGRFs are for houses :-) Not towns :-P
05:24<Rhamphoryncus>I actually meant to comment yesterday but I missed him
05:25<@planetmaker>Rhamphoryncus: it was a simple answer
05:25<andythenorth>planetmaker: so it's an issue of proper domain - but to make it work there might need to be new code + new conventions
05:25<andythenorth>and it risks limiting authors
05:25<andythenorth>Rhamphoryncus: is multiprocessing a python module?
05:25<@planetmaker>NewGRFs never controlled town growth, andythenorth
05:25<Rhamphoryncus>andythenorth: yes
05:26<Pikka>hmm
05:26<Pikka>are AIs and game scripts the same thing?
05:26<Rhamphoryncus>it wraps fork in an API similar to threading
05:26<@planetmaker>not the same thing, but they share a lot, Pikka
05:26<andythenorth>Rhamphoryncus oh yes, I looked at it yesterday, it's the one that works with the GIL? might be overkill for my problem....not sure
05:26<@planetmaker>there are things which are AI only and others which are GS only
05:26<andythenorth>oh no, this is the one that sidesteps the GIL
05:26<Rhamphoryncus>yes
05:26<@planetmaker>an AI can never act as company_deity :-)
05:27<Rhamphoryncus>and it's part of the stdlib now which obviously makes it easier to acquire
05:27<@planetmaker>AI and GS are written both in squirrel and many functions are shared, though
05:27<Pikka> hmm
05:28<andythenorth>planetmaker: try another case
05:28<andythenorth>change primary industry production: NewGRF or NoGo?
05:28<@planetmaker>THIS ONE :-P
05:28<Pikka>clearly the obvious solution is to remove all distinctions between AIs, game scripts and newgrfs. :P
05:28<andythenorth>XML!
05:29<@planetmaker>Pikka: not quite. They serve different purposes
05:29<Pikka>that is, to make a file format that can include any of the above and can only be loaded by the player as a single entity. :)
05:29<@planetmaker>When game scripts were devised, yes, we thought about this and the issues
05:29<andythenorth><node>for<node >i<node>in<node>foo<node>:<node>stuff</node></node></node></node></node>
05:29<@planetmaker>And to keep it separate for a reason: flexibility
05:30<Pikka>there's flexibility and there's simplicity
05:30<@planetmaker>The single objects (houses, industries, vehicles...) are established via NewGRF. But they have local logic and influence only
05:30<andythenorth>do we have NoGo bound to specific scenarios yet?
05:30<@planetmaker>The way the game works, that's global (towns growing, new industries, ..), that's for game script
05:31<@planetmaker>Keeping it separate allows really different games with the same game objects (NewGRFs) beging used
05:31<@planetmaker>Pikka: it's no issue to offer a related set of game scripts and NewGRFs which are supposed to work with eachother
05:32<andythenorth>it's also going to lead to some entertaining drama between NewGRF authors and NoGo authors :D
05:32<@planetmaker>And it would be great. But making it monolithic would be counterproductive
05:32<andythenorth>'plz can I haz feature xyz'
05:32<Pikka>of course it's an issue, planetmaker
05:32<@planetmaker>why or how?
05:32<andythenorth>(1) support
05:32<andythenorth>(2)...?
05:32<@planetmaker>how (1)?
05:32<@planetmaker>it's easier, if separate
05:33<Pikka>planetmaker: why do we allow multiple vehicles, or multiple houses, per grf?
05:33<andythenorth>planetmaker (1) only easier when the NoGo is tied to a specific known good set of newgrfs
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05:34<Pikka>surely it would be no issue to offer a related set of grfs which are supposed to work with each other...
05:34<@planetmaker>Pikka: it's unhandy to select every vehicle separately ;-)
05:34<Pikka>exactly
05:34<@planetmaker>But a NewGRF is not game control. Is not supposed to be
05:35<@planetmaker>It's item control
05:35<andythenorth>Support: let's say you spend a year writing NoGo against FIRS 0.7.0. Then we completely rewrite supplies behaviour, whilst also fixing a critical bug you needed fixed. But now we broke your NoGo and you have to rewrite it for three months.
05:35<@planetmaker>that's conceptionally a difference
05:35*andythenorth agrees with planetmaker resp. proper domains
05:35*peter1138 yawns
05:35<Pikka>planetmaker: then you need to give us a way to include local and global control in one distributable file
05:35<andythenorth>but the interfaces look really messy to me
05:35<andythenorth>or non-existent
05:35<@planetmaker>Pikka: no
05:35*peter1138 agrees with pikka
05:35<@planetmaker>It's the player who chooses
05:35<@peter1138>i've not read what it is
05:35-!-TheMask96 [martijn@polaris.ne2000.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
05:35<@peter1138>but i usually agree with pikka :p
05:36<Pikka>planetmaker: but the player has no idea
05:36<@planetmaker>which goals he plays. And which Items he uses. But that's two different things
05:36<Pikka>the player downloads every grf and runs them at the same time
05:36<Pikka>and doesn't know what a gamescript is
05:36<@planetmaker>Pikka: and you do have an idea what's best for me?
05:36<@peter1138>game dictates to the player
05:36<@peter1138>that's how games work
05:36<Pikka>yes, because I've put hundreds of hours into working out the gameplay of this content
05:36<@planetmaker>and players do know what game scripts is as much as NewGRFs.
05:37<@planetmaker>Or will learn that
05:37<Pikka>and if no-one's ever going to play it, why bother?
05:37<@peter1138>okay, i can guess what this is about, and i still agree with pikka
05:37<andythenorth>BUT IT'S NOT A GAME!! IT'S A REALITY SIMULATOR!! FOR TRAINS !! WTF LOL
05:37<@peter1138>"what's best for the player" is a good gameplay experience
05:37<Pikka>exactly, peter
05:38<Pikka>which doesn't come about from loading half a grf/script
05:38<andythenorth>but with NoGo, because NoGo has to be monolothic (one per game), I can't just write a nice industry NoGo
05:38<@peter1138>i don't like it that people kill me all the time in TF2
05:38<@peter1138>but that's the gameplay ;p
05:38<andythenorth>and I can't be arsed to make "Andy's version of OTTD"
05:39<@planetmaker>peter1138: I suggest you remove game scripts and implement that as NewGRF then
05:39<andythenorth>global storage
05:39<andythenorth>the thing we were never allowed to have, because of what NewGRF authors might do with it
05:39<andythenorth>so now we have NoGo instead, and no reliable interface between NewGRF and NoGo
05:39<andythenorth>more like an unexploded bomb interface
05:39<@planetmaker>or what was your argument?
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05:41<@planetmaker>Pikka: where's not the difference to add to the NeWGRF dialoge UKRS2, TaI, PBI and what-you-have not seen and also adding the TaI game script?
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05:41<andythenorth>or load a scenario where all of those are baked into the save...
05:41<@planetmaker>that's what scenarios do...
05:41<andythenorth>exactamly
05:42<andythenorth>planetmaker: now you add the TAI game script, but you add ECS
05:42<andythenorth>what happens?
05:42<andythenorth>(1) explosions
05:42<andythenorth>(2) support requests
05:42<andythenorth>(3) lol-wtf this thing is crappy and broken
05:42-!-tokai|mdlx [~tokai@port-92-195-2-193.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #openttd
05:43<@planetmaker>(4) everything just works
05:43<@planetmaker>as the GS would just grow some towns and others not
05:44<@planetmaker>would fund some industries and others not
05:44<@planetmaker>maybe find that it has not TaI at its disposal and ignore the industry part
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05:45<andythenorth>so in the readme explaining what the GS does (and why to choose this one, not foobar.gs, or mylovelyGS.gs)....what do you say?
05:45<andythenorth>how do you describe the behaviour, which won't always occur
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05:45<@planetmaker>though it probably would not find that
05:46<@planetmaker>andythenorth: you mean it would do *something* in a way which is unexpected. Thus like the current NewGRFs?
05:46<andythenorth>as a GS author, how do you make sense of bug reports? "E.g. no industries opened", "lots of towns with roads but no houses"
05:47<andythenorth>a NewGRF does at least currently know its own spec, so can describe behaviour in readme etc
05:47<@planetmaker>The same way as we make sense of bug reports. Look at the issue and investigate
05:47<@planetmaker>"provide savegame or nothing can be said". Done
05:47<@planetmaker>as usual
05:47<@planetmaker>even w/o GS
05:48<andythenorth>but with arbitrary NoGo, and arbitrary NewGRF it got much worse...
05:48*planetmaker is tired and wanders off
05:48<Pikka>lol
05:48<Pikka>well, it would be nice if I could tell the town not to build road. but I've never really had a problem with that anyway.. :)
05:49<Pikka>so I guess it's back to "explain things better in the manual"
05:49<Pikka>hello peter1138 btw :) long time
05:49<@peter1138>you can tell it not to build a house, right?
05:49<Pikka>yes. well, no
05:49<@peter1138>which then leads to lots of random roads instead?
05:49<@planetmaker>wouldn't change that it's broken to limit town growth imho. but well. too tired of this
05:49<Pikka>you can tell it, for each individual house, not to build that house.
05:50<andythenorth>planetmaker: it will all come out in the wash, eventually ;)
05:50<@planetmaker>who cares
05:50<Pikka>planetmaker: imo the town growth in OpenTTD breaks the game, which is why I created the grf in the first place. but indeed, who cares.
05:50<@planetmaker>Pikka: it's ttd and ttdpatch behaviour
05:50<@peter1138>okay, so
05:50<Pikka>I'll take the bug reports, and in the meantime try to limit them with good documentation.
05:50<andythenorth>clearly we cared enough to debate this far :P
05:50<Pikka>even so planetmaker, it breaks the game
05:51<@planetmaker>nope
05:51<@planetmaker>the newgrf does
05:51<Pikka>and leads to people trying to do silly things like knobble aircraft.
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05:51<@planetmaker>maybe OpenTTD should in case of doubt build a fallback house ;-)
05:52<Pikka>okay
05:52<Pikka>I'll make it look like a road tile in TaI ;)
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05:53<@peter1138>btw
05:53<@peter1138>finish tai
05:53<@peter1138>cos it's awesome
05:54<Pikka>I'll try
05:54<Pikka>19th century buildings will be awesome/a pain to draw. I'm not sure which yet.
05:54*peter1138 wonders whatever happened to the idea of multi-tile houses
05:54<@peter1138>(more than 2x2
05:54<@peter1138>)
05:54<Pikka>newobjects I guess
05:55<@peter1138>they smell
05:55<Pikka>I can't see more than 2x2 being useful as a house, anything that size you probably want permanent anyway.
05:55<Pikka>hmm
05:56-!-tokai|noir [~tokai@port-92-195-77-106.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
05:56<Pikka>still, first things first
05:56<Pikka>dinner then ukrs2
05:57<Arafangion>Nononono.
05:57-!-sla_ro|master [slaco@95.76.26.172] has quit []
05:57<Arafangion>It's "dinner", followed by "more dinner".
05:57<Pikka>where can you tell where dinner ends and more dinner begins?
05:57<Pikka>how can you tell, too?
05:57<Rhamphoryncus>And how!
05:58<Rhamphoryncus>(the less sense that makes the more funny it is)
05:58<Arafangion>Pikka: It's marked by the fact that I have to actually physically move to get it! :)
06:10<andythenorth>peter1138 wonders whatever happened to the idea of multi-tile houses <- you didn't code it?
06:10<@peter1138>hah
06:11<andythenorth>is it needed?
06:11<Pikka>I guess 1x3 could sometimes be interesting
06:11<Pikka>hmm
06:12<Pikka>2x3 private airfield :P
06:13<andythenorth>riverfront park?
06:13<andythenorth>nature reserve?
06:14<andythenorth>out of town shopping mall horrorshow
06:14<@peter1138>National Trust industry
06:14<andythenorth>accepts: people; produces: crippling nostalgia?
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06:16<Pikka>ahah
06:16*Pikka has a potential solution to the towns-building-roads problem
06:17<andythenorth>do tell
06:17<Pikka>a building which can always be built
06:17<Pikka>and has 0 population
06:17<Pikka>and is invisible
06:17<Pikka>and is immediately removed via callback 21 :)
06:17<andythenorth>win win
06:18<Pikka>yes
06:18<andythenorth>the road is still there no?
06:18<Pikka>although I have my doubts that that will stop the town building roads
06:18<Pikka>but if it really is the case that "the town builds road if it can't build a building" it might slow it down
06:19<andythenorth>there are 4 eggs here
06:19<andythenorth>pickup eggs
06:19<andythenorth>you are holding 4 eggs
06:19<Pikka>why can't I hold all these eggs?
06:19<andythenorth>make omelette
06:19<andythenorth>"you have won the game"
06:20<Rhamphoryncus>That would lead to brown spots, wouldn't it?
06:20<Pikka>yes
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06:20<Pikka>but the odd brown spot is nothing to be ashamed of
06:21<Rhamphoryncus>That depends. Is it on an article of clothing?
06:22<Arafangion>And *where*?
06:25<Rhamphoryncus>And how!
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06:33<Rhamphoryncus>oh.. right.. going from 1x freight to 5x freight definitely changes what a grasshopper can pull, heh
06:34<Rhamphoryncus>I'm glad I went with the tunnel rather than going over the hill ;)
06:35<andythenorth>Rhamphoryncus: want to write me a multiprocessing process spawner, pulling tasks from a queue? :P :)
06:37<@peter1138>easy?
06:37<Rhamphoryncus>it has a Queue type. Pool type too
06:37<andythenorth>probly easy :P
06:38*andythenorth is trying to make the code get written in parallel, as well as executed that way :P
06:38<Rhamphoryncus>Sorry, too busy playing with FIRS ;)
06:39<andythenorth>stupid FIRS
06:39<andythenorth>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/bandit/repository/entry/misc/pixel_generator/main.py
06:40<andythenorth>^ the generate method calls here are embarrassingly parallel
06:41*peter1138 wrote a multithreaded queue processor in c
06:41<@peter1138>but that's probably not what you want :p
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06:42<andythenorth>shrug
06:42<andythenorth>if it worked and I didn't have to write it...
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06:57<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: just let me start 200 processes from the command line, each with a different config file. and let make handle the multithreading
06:58<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: very possible
06:58<andythenorth>just make each of the gestalts handle args?
06:59<andythenorth>or create configparser config?
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07:05<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: just like a c compiler can compile 200 .c files into .o
07:05<smoovi>is somewhere a list where I can see the names of the keys for editing hotkeys.cfg?
07:08<Pikka>hmm
07:08<Pikka>ukrs2 just passed 12345 sprites :]
07:08<Pikka>real + pseudo
07:09<Pikka>only 4737 real sprites
07:10<Eddi|zuHause>Pikka: CETS is way beyond that :p
07:10<andythenorth>Pikka: next milestone is 123456
07:10<andythenorth>might take longer :P
07:10<Pikka>might do
07:11<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: so somewhere a list of config files to pass?
07:12<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: so i call "pixa.py -i <gestalt name> -o <image name>"
07:12<andythenorth>k
07:12<andythenorth>not possible quite yet, but close
07:14<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: then it can be handled with a makefile rule like "%.png: gestalts/%.py"
07:15<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: and the multithreading is handled by calling "make -j<X>"
07:15<Eddi|zuHause>or MAKEOPTS="-j<X>"
07:16<andythenorth>so I need (1) to make pixa handle command line args (2) a makefile...
07:17<Eddi|zuHause>you don't have to make a makefile :)
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07:41<+michi_cc>Pikka: Regarding GameScripts, I guess it would be nice if there would be an optional TaI script that e.g. slows town growth down the nearer a town gets to the current limit (additional to the current hard limit, not instead). This way you wouldn't have growth suddenly stop from one tick to the next.
07:42<+michi_cc>I don't know offhand if the current GS API would allow to find out the TaI town class, but it is always possible to add things if needed :)
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07:47<andythenorth>michi_cc: what would be the interface definition between GS and TaI? A set of labels or such?
07:47<andythenorth>town classes?
07:47<andythenorth>town type labels?
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07:49<Illegal_Alien>Harrr
07:50<Pikka>andythenorth: probably the GS can see the same variable the grf uses to decide town class, ie the town's index number?
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07:56<+michi_cc>I was more thinking about access to the town persistent storage (http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/Storages#Persistent_storage_accessed_by_GRFID), as that already is organzied by GRFID.
07:56<andythenorth>michi_cc: yes I considered that before
07:56<andythenorth>same could be used for industry storage
07:56<+michi_cc>But if TaI is really just using the town index, then I believe a GS can already access that.
07:56<andythenorth>it was dismissed as nonsense :P
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07:59<Pikka>I'd say either av8 or TaI need a parameter to reduce the airport infrastructure costs
08:00<Pikka>but that probably comes under the domain of game scripts
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08:01<sponge>gday
08:01<Pikka>howza
08:02<Illegal_Alien>howza?
08:02<Pikka>probabluy
08:02<Pikka>and probably
08:03<sponge>howza is a ok
08:03<Illegal_Alien>riiiiight
08:03*Illegal_Alien back to sleepmode
08:05<Pikka>michi_cc: what is the default airport infrastructure maintenance cost factor? It's not in the specs.
08:07*Pikka has an old TaI/UKRS test game, I turn on infrastructure maintenance...
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08:07<Pikka>I have 12 aircraft, 4 commuter airports, one city and one metro.
08:08<Pikka>3 million a year aircraft profit, 12 million a year airport infrastructure costs :D
08:08<+michi_cc>If you copy an existing layout with prop 0x08, it should be whatever the airport you copy from has.
08:08<NGC3982>:o
08:08<Pikka>yes, but I don't know what those numbers are to adjust them :)
08:08<Pikka>I can't find it written anywhere
08:09<+michi_cc>The column before the ATP_TTDP_* in http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/1175/
08:10<Pikka>okay
08:10<Pikka>I shall add to http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/AirportTypes :)
08:11<+michi_cc>Though I think 12 million cost are quite alright in this case, I very much intended to make airports with just two or three aircraft very expensive :)
08:11<Pikka>yes
08:12<Pikka>yet another way in which the air game is made boring by making the best strategy "grow huge cities on opposite sides of the map and spam the largest aircraft" ;)
08:13<Pikka>the smaller airports could possibly have lower costs, for games of my style at least. It'll be a parameter, anyway.
08:14<+michi_cc>Sure, if you intent to have something that is e.g. not more than a dirt strip, costs (and capacity) should be lower.
08:14<Pikka>yep
08:14<andythenorth>dirt strip airports! :)
08:15<Pikka>av8ports :D
08:15<andythenorth>multi-stop docks!
08:15<andythenorth>:P
08:15<andythenorth>ships! sink!
08:15<Pikka>those wanting "bigger airports" which can "handle 60 planes at once"... will be disappointed by av8ports. ;)
08:15<+michi_cc>We need to finish the airport specs at one point I guess.
08:15<Pikka>it would be nice :)
08:15*andythenorth goes back to things he can do: cargo sprites
08:15<andythenorth>the 'shout features' game rarely works here :P
08:15<Pikka>but for the future
08:15*Pikka has enough to get finished right now :D
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08:21<Pikka>there, added. :)
08:23<andythenorth>ha ha, a big cheatsheet is insane http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/2558/cargo_coils_floorplan.png
08:23<Pikka>rather
08:24<@peter1138>er what?
08:24<andythenorth>exactly
08:24<andythenorth>I wrote a script that makes each pixel 30x bigger, writes the index number in the middle of the resulting block and saves it as png
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08:31<johnnyc227>Hey
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08:34<@planetmaker>how evil, andythenorth
08:34<@planetmaker>you kinda shotdown my browser :-(
08:34<andythenorth>sorry
08:34<@planetmaker>hi johnnyc227
08:34<andythenorth>firefox?
08:34<@planetmaker>^^
08:34<johnnyc227>lol
08:34<@planetmaker>it's still downloading that evilness
08:34<johnnyc227>Hows everyone doing? :D
08:34<andythenorth>it's only 479KB
08:34<andythenorth>:P
08:35<@planetmaker>then... it's cought in an endless loop
08:35<johnnyc227>Cup and string internet connection? ;D
08:36<@planetmaker>nothing a kill can't solve
08:40<Eddi|zuHause> <andythenorth> think it might infringe the 'reverse engineering' part of a license agreement? :P <-- german copyright law states that "reverse engineering" parts of licenses are automatically void
08:40<andythenorth>just make sure we get sued in Germany then :)
08:41<TrueBrain>and that they dont take it to EU court
08:41<Eddi|zuHause>mind you, that only applies to programs, not graphics, etc.
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08:57*andythenorth learns lesson: adding params to __init__ after you've written multiple calls to it already, will cause pain
08:57<Eddi|zuHause>give them default values :=)
08:57<andythenorth>thought of that
08:57<andythenorth>will slightly lead to...errors in output :P
08:58<andythenorth>nvm
08:58<andythenorth>code is for rewriting
08:58<andythenorth>cargo generator might be done soon
08:58<andythenorth>apart from I have to go shopping :|
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09:08<andythenorth>vvl
09:08<andythenorth>bbl
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09:19<Belugas>hello
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11:37<sponge>Is there a graphics callback for powered / unpowered vehicles?
11:41<@planetmaker>you can make it so
11:41<@planetmaker>as railtype change is available
11:42<Eddi|zuHause>i would advise against dropping the power to 0 on railtype change. just chose an unpowered railtype instead
11:43<Eddi|zuHause>way less problems with the pathfinder, etc.
11:44<Eddi|zuHause>the actual question is: what exactly are you trying to achieve?
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11:58<itch>Hello
11:59<itch>Quit question: is there any way I can set the place of tool bar (the one in the upper side of screen) to be aligned left / right instead of center?
12:03<__ln__>i had a patch for that
12:04<itch>Care to share? :D
12:04<bolli>Help!
12:04<bolli>i 've managed to break a remote server...
12:04<bolli>i get this message... Game cannot be unpaused manually; disable pause_on_join/min_active_clients
12:04<bolli>any idea what it means? :|
12:04<itch>Thing is , im using dual display and the bar is riiiight on the middle :(
12:05<__ln__>itch: it's badly outdated, made almost 20000 revisions ago... and i don't remember how well it worked back then. but in any case here it is: http://users.utu.fi/lanurm/ottd/dual-screen-centering.diff
12:05<sponge>Eddi|zuHause: im just trying to have different sprite sets
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12:06<sponge>but i guess thats not important since it only runs on one way of track set: metro
12:06<itch>__ln__, thanks
12:06<sponge>i was also thinking of adding loading/unloading, not sure if its supported
12:06<Ammler>no need of patch, afaik, there is toolbar_pos, isn't?
12:07<Ammler>at least there was, maybe gone :-)
12:09<sponge>Looks like my metro set is complete.
12:09<sponge>Supports real colours, 1cc and 2cc.
12:10<Ammler>this feature availability template on the wiki is silly and will only grow, why not simply write "available since"
12:10<sponge>i was always lacking a good subway in the original train set
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12:20<itch>Ammler, indeed, there is toobar_pos. Whare are the variables for it? ATM is set to 1
12:21<Ammler>@man toolbar_pos
12:22<Ammler>http://wiki.openttd.org/Toolbar_position
12:22<Ammler>KenjiE20: you should put webster in here :-)
12:22<itch>Thanks :)
12:23<Ammler>0 is default, so you changed it
12:23<Ammler>also it should be available via gui according to the wiki
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12:32<itch>Indeed, it is.
12:32<itch>Thanks for the info
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12:36<itch>Oook, next question: can I force ottd to go trough ALSA driver under linux? As it is now, it seems that the "music / effects volume" does nothing.
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12:45<NGC3982>http://i.imgur.com/jWzVn.jpg
12:45<@Terkhen>hello
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13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: translators * r24016 /trunk/src/lang/ (french.txt latvian.txt slovenian.txt):
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: french - 1 changes by OliTTD
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: latvian - 35 changes by Parastais
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: slovenian - 10 changes by Necrolyte
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14:17<Wolf01>hello
14:17<__ln__>ciao
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14:20<NGC3982>is there any way to give another player money?
14:21<Wolf01>paypal
14:21<NGC3982>;)
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14:31<@Terkhen>NGC3982: you can do that at the client list
14:31<@Terkhen>you can select it (IIRC) at the beginning of the company list
14:36<NGC3982>Terkhen: thank you!
14:36<@Terkhen>yw
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14:43<__ln__>@seen Bjarni
14:43<@DorpsGek>__ln__: Bjarni was last seen in #openttd 21 weeks, 3 days, 19 hours, 24 minutes, and 33 seconds ago: <Bjarni> heh
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15:00<buc`afk>Hello
15:01<buc`afk>quick question if anyone has a minute?
15:01<Rubidium>given a nanosecond is 30 centimeters, I don't think I've got a minute
15:02<buc`afk>well i'll give it a go anyway :P
15:02<buc`afk>lots of places create 'crates of goods'
15:02<buc`afk>where do you ship those to?
15:02<buc`afk>towns or??
15:03<Rubidium>exactly to there
15:03<buc`afk>do i do anything with them once they are there?
15:04<buc`afk>ie, cart them into the middle of the town or anything?
15:04<buc`afk>or just TO the town and then job done
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15:13<+glx>to a town with a station saying it accepts goods
15:13<+glx>it's like any other cargo
15:13<buc`afk>k
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17:10<Wolf01>'night
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17:17<Eddi|zuHause>"Guess who was hacked today"
17:18<Rubidium>"noone"?
17:18<Eddi|zuHause>"Sony alledgedly lost its entire music catalog of michael jackson, including unreleased material"
17:19<Rubidium>lies...
17:19<Rubidium>if they lost it, it's released
17:19*Rubidium rather sees Spirit being hacked ;)
17:21-!-Firartix [~artixds@184.140.0.93.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
17:21<Eddi|zuHause>"A spokesman for sony admitted the hack on march 4th, but the actual hack happened in april 2011, few weeks after the PSN hack."
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17:32<@Terkhen>good night
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18:27<frosch123>night
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23:26<DanMacK>Hey all
23:26<Pikka>good morning mister MacK
23:29<DanMacK>Still evening here :)
23:30<@planetmaker>morning
23:32<DanMacK>Hey PM
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---Logclosed Tue Mar 06 00:00:35 2012