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#openttd IRC Logs for 2012-03-06

---Logopened Tue Mar 06 00:00:35 2012
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01:12<andythenorth>moin
01:12<Pikka>mr andy
01:12*Pikka accidentally HOVS tracking table
01:13<Pikka>with 23 vehicles... D:
01:13<andythenorth>poopy doopy
01:13<Pikka>exactly
01:13<andythenorth>where is it to?
01:13<Pikka>where is it to?
01:14<andythenorth>the table...
01:14<Pikka>what does "where is it to" mean? :D
01:14<andythenorth>bristolian for 'where?"
01:14<Pikka>oh right
01:14<andythenorth>like 'where is chipping sodbury to?'
01:14<andythenorth>to which the answer is 'chipping sodbury'
01:14<Pikka>haven't worked out costs yet but I can put it up :)
01:15<andythenorth>sir ozlington has made shunting
01:15<Pikka>yes
01:15<Pikka>which is great
01:15<andythenorth>I am scared newgrf will rain on his parade :(
01:15<Pikka>except pretty much the entirety of newgrf relies on the consist not changing outside the depot
01:15<Pikka>indeed
01:17<andythenorth>I turned on auto-refit for HEQS trams; they change length in stations
01:17<andythenorth>think it causes an assert, or at least ottd is sad about it
01:17<Pikka>yep
01:17<Pikka>sounds like a very bad idea (tm) :)
01:18*andythenorth needs to turn it off :P
01:20<Pikka>http://www.pruplethingz.com/junk/rindabite.png
01:20<Pikka>apologies for presenting textations in graphical form
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01:22<andythenorth>will you keep current size of graphics?
01:23<Pikka>they will be more in line with the UKRS2 sizes than TTD sizes
01:23<Pikka>I'll probably start with the titan or regent and send it over for you to compare to banditry.
01:25<andythenorth>k
01:25-!-Artix [~artixds@181.140.0.93.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
01:25<Pikka>although I'm supposed to be working on UKRS2 today... lalala
01:26<Pikka>starting projects is easy!
01:26<andythenorth>+1
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02:09<Pikka>hmm
02:09<Pikka>I have a costs, they look about right...
02:10<andythenorth>I have a spritesheet of coils for STEL and PAPR
02:10<andythenorth>they look about a wrong
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02:10<Pikka>oops!
02:14<NGC3982>Pikka: what is that? :)
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02:17<Pikka>the link?
02:17<Pikka>planning for bus grfs
02:18*andythenorth ponders curling that and turning it into config data for a set
02:18<andythenorth>parsing the bitmap would be fun
02:18<Pikka>:o
02:19<andythenorth>not fun
02:19*andythenorth has a graphics library and is not afraid to use it!
02:19<andythenorth>new shiny toy syndrome :P
02:21*andythenorth decides writing a text-recognition tool might not be a good project
02:22<andythenorth>if it was a fixed width font...would be easier
02:22<andythenorth>just go in regular increments and see what shape pixel you got :P
02:22<andythenorth>*pixels
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02:36<andythenorth>hmm
02:36<andythenorth>w
02:37<andythenorth>what colour is paper?
02:37<Pikka>depends on what colour it is
02:37<Pikka>either white or brown or nondescript, if we're talking TTD loads :P
02:52<andythenorth>brown? :o
02:53<Pikka>http://www.pulpandpaper-technology.com/contractor_images/cascade/2_90F.jpg here it comes now
02:54<andythenorth>they must be wrapping a big parcel
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04:06<andythenorth>hey, it's pikka!
04:06<Pikka>yep!
04:07<Nat_aS>I'm late but, cover the paper with a tarp :P
04:07<Nat_aS>to keep it dry in the rain
04:07<andythenorth>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/2570/8_8_cargo_coils_STEL.png
04:07<andythenorth>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/2571/8_8_cargo_coils_PAPR.png
04:07<andythenorth>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/2572/8_8_cargo_coils_COPR.png
04:08<andythenorth>Nat_aS: your solution is a good one - for people who don't have a pixel generator in their back pocket ;)
04:08<Pikka>triffic andy!
04:08<Nat_aS>but white is probably the best way to communicate to the player visualy that the train is carrying paper.
04:08<andythenorth>for my next trick, I make those appear for all lengths 1/8 - 8/8
04:08<andythenorth>with loading states
04:09<andythenorth>then comp them to ve-hicles
04:15<Pikka>:]
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04:38<Pikka>lol
04:38<Pikka>there's a town in this test game called "Tendon"
04:41<@peter1138>heh
04:41<Pikka>peeeter
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04:46<@peter1138>peeeker
04:56<Pikka>gonna run a 1.2 server peter? :}
04:56<Pikka>gonna have bandit ready for 1.2 andy? :P
05:00<@peter1138>hm
05:00<@peter1138>probably not
05:00<@peter1138>not played for years
05:00<@peter1138>since the ukrs 1 days
05:00<Pikka>:)
05:00<Pikka>but now it's the UKRS2 days
05:01<@peter1138>yeah
05:01<Pikka>oh well
05:01<@peter1138>egrvts smells
05:01<Pikka>true that
05:01<Pikka>well
05:01<Pikka>no
05:02<Pikka>it's better than anything else out there
05:02<@peter1138>yes
05:02<@peter1138>i miss your rv set
05:02<@peter1138>the never-finished one
05:02<Pikka>oh
05:02<Pikka>that one
05:02<Pikka>did you see what I showed andy earlier and what I've been doing all afternoon when I should have been doing UKRS2?
05:03<@peter1138>no
05:03<Pikka>http://pruplethingz.com/junk/rindabite.png
05:05<@peter1138>well
05:05<@peter1138>then i might have to play
05:05<Pikka>:P
05:05<Pikka>but it needs bandit for the trucks
05:06<@peter1138>andythenorth, hurry
05:09<Pikka>oops
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07:21<Pikka>well if it isn't andythenorth
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07:35<andythenorth>it isn't andythenorth
07:36<Pikka>then to whom am I sprechen?
07:37<Eddi|zuHause>Pikka: question came up whether your vehicle sounds could be reused in a GPL project
07:39<Pikka>well, they're mostly sourced from places which I don't remember, so...
07:39<Pikka>I'm happy for them to be used, but if you care about where they're originally from you might not want to use them.
07:41<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: vehicle sounds are one thing I've considered paying money for
07:41<Pikka>really andy?
07:41<andythenorth>royalty free is usually cheap
07:41<andythenorth>finding sounds is time + hassle, often the rights on them are unclear
07:41*andythenorth has found a lot of sounds for games in the past
07:42<andythenorth>$3 for a sound, or spend 30 mins looking for one?
07:42<Pikka>eh
07:42<andythenorth>dunno if sound dogs license is GPL compatible thought :o
07:42<andythenorth>http://sounddogs.com/
07:43<Pikka>tbh I find the sounds need so much editing to fit TTD that you can start off with just about any old crap :)
07:43<andythenorth>this said, I could never get sounds to compile with grfcodec mac, so I never pursued the idea :P
07:43<Pikka>lol
07:43<Pikka>I hope you're not adding running sounds to road vehicles :P
07:43<andythenorth>I tried adding a bulldozer noise to HEQS
07:43<andythenorth>fail :P
07:44<andythenorth>HEQS might all currently sound like buses, not sure
07:44<Eddi|zuHause>my main problem is that there's no appropriate startup whistle for <1950's electrics
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07:45<Pikka>what should it sound like, eddi?
07:57<Eddi|zuHause>Pikka: well, it can sound pretty much like a steam engine's whistle, but i'd rather have a short blow instead of the long TTD one
08:01<Pikka>well, I could give you a whistle, but if you're worried about the provenance...
08:01<Pikka>because I have no idea where the original sounds I created these from came from :)
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08:05<Eddi|zuHause>here are a few examples how it can sound: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ygtP2Q41RCs
08:08<Pikka>neat :)
08:08<Pikka>I'd say get one of those wooden train whistles for kids, go into an echoey room and record it ;)
08:11<MINM>doesn't andy have a toddler? surely he should be able to acquire one
08:12<andythenorth>I used to have an awesome tone generator app
08:12<Mark>Hurrdurr, can you edit a .grf-file?
08:13<andythenorth>it let you compose sounds from ~8 different tones, with generators from sine, sawtooth etc
08:13<andythenorth>and one generator could modulate another
08:13<Pikka>who's Hurrdurr?
08:13<Mark>No one.
08:13<Mark>Just a question to everyone. :)
08:13<andythenorth>then you slice out a bit of tone, and visit Audacity with it...
08:13<Pikka>yes, most people currently talking can I think.
08:14-!-andythenorth is now known as Hurrdurr
08:14<Hurrdurr>no
08:14<Mark>Hurrdurr: :D
08:14-!-Hurrdurr is now known as andythenorth
08:14<Pikka>yes Hurrdurr, but it's better to start with something with a bit of timbre
08:14<Mark>andythenorth: So the answer is no, you can't?
08:14<Pikka>andy certainly can
08:15<andythenorth>edit a .grf?
08:15<Pikka>http://www.pruplethingz.com/junk/approachingproductivity.png
08:16<Mark>andythenorth: Yer, edit a downloade NewGRF.
08:16<andythenorth>Mark: Hurrdurr was trolling you
08:17<andythenorth>Pikka: that's nice ^^ what does it do? :D
08:17<Mark>aw
08:17<Mark>:>
08:17<Mark>Just edit some parameters like weight, torque and top speed on trains like.
08:17<andythenorth>Mark: you can decompile the grf with grfcodec, edit the resulting nfo (uncommented hex), and recompile it
08:17<Pikka>it voyages, andythenorth
08:17<andythenorth>people do that reasonably often
08:18<Mark>andythenorth: oh, sweet.
08:18<Mark>Thanks! :)
08:19*Pikka wonders what Mark had in mind
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08:40<Belugas>hello
08:41<andythenorth>o/
08:44<Pikka>hello Belugas
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08:46<Belugas>hi hi guys :)
08:46<Belugas>sun is out today. frigid, but at least, it's sunny!
08:47<__ln__>it can't be out there, it's over here
08:47<Eddi|zuHause>i don't see it...
08:48<Belugas>ho? so... there are now two known suns in the system!
08:48<Belugas>that or...i'm on another planet :)
08:48<Belugas>on another solar system!
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10:33<@peter1138>herpderp
10:33<Pikka>werp
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10:38<Eddi|zuHause>english only!
10:38<Pikka>nein!
10:39<@peter1138>non
10:39<Rubidium>neen
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11:02*NGC3982 fails to find PETER1138 in the new general catalogue
11:06<@peter1138>odd that
11:09*Pikka parties like it's 1647
11:17<NGC3982>mozart all up in this bitch.
11:17<xiong>*there is another system*
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11:43<andythenorth>moo!
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11:43<andythenorth>moo / quak /s
11:43<andythenorth>quof!
11:43<andythenorth>dogfrog
11:44<frosch123>how many of you have a russian supermarket in their neighbourhood?
11:44<andythenorth>polish
11:44<andythenorth>not russion
11:44<andythenorth>for why?
11:45<frosch123>well, one opened next to me
11:45<frosch123>everything is labelled russian in there :p
11:45<andythenorth>can you buy votes there?
11:46<frosch123>does "bargaining" count as "voting"?
11:47<andythenorth>only if you get to be the russian president at the end of the process :P
11:47<andythenorth>frosputin
11:47<frosch123>:)
11:48<frosch123>would that result in a newgrf oligarchy?
11:48<andythenorth>dunno
11:48<andythenorth>is there one already?
11:48<frosch123>we already have rationed ponies
11:49<andythenorth>do ponies smoke?
11:49<andythenorth>or is that bad for their health?
11:50<frosch123>smoking is only good for elephants and rhinos
11:50*andythenorth ponders attempting the newgrf smoke patch
11:50<andythenorth>I did write a newgrf cb once
11:50<andythenorth>the inverse of 'can wagon be attached'
11:50<andythenorth>it worked and everything. it languishes on fs somewhere :P
11:50<frosch123>(yellow teeth make them less attractive for hunting)
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13:15<NGC3982>does delivering passengers to oil rigs stimulate the oil production?
13:16<@planetmaker>Nope. You also don't get soylent green
13:17<NGC3982>bah
13:17<NGC3982>i was hoping for that.
13:17<@planetmaker>write a NewGRF which does exactly that ;-)
13:17<NGC3982>i was actually ranting about on that last week
13:18<NGC3982>but then, with passengers stimulating all the normal industries.
13:21<@Terkhen>hello
13:31<@Alberth>NGC3982: /me has been pondering about that too; could be fun
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13:36<NGC3982>sure, it aint that realistic
13:36<NGC3982>but it will make small maps extremely more vibrant
13:36<NGC3982>as far as im concerned.
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13:41<@Alberth>andy: o/
13:43<NGC3982>Alberth: how advanced is building such a grf?
13:44<NGC3982>im more or less a newbie on anything in code. i write some C#, but i have no conception on how compilation and stuff is made or executed.
13:44<andythenorth>lo Alberth
13:44<andythenorth>tip for the wise
13:45<andythenorth>'cept the wise will already know
13:45<andythenorth> sequences[i] = PixaSequence(points=coil_load),
13:45<andythenorth>where sequences is a dict
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: translators * r24017 /trunk/src/lang/swedish.txt:
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: swedish - 1 changes by Zuu
13:45<andythenorth>will cause much pondering
13:45<andythenorth>that was 20 mins to debug :(
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13:54<xiong>I have some rather specific ideas about the initial distributions of towns, cities, and industries when starting a new game. Would it be possible to adjust these by writing a NewGRF or would a patch be required?
13:56<andythenorth>somewhat the former, possibly the latter, possibly NoGo
13:57<frosch123>nothing can influence the position of towns on map creation
13:57<frosch123>newgrfs can influence the position of industries
13:57<frosch123>nogo can influence town growth in the game
13:58<andythenorth>can nogo influence much at map creation time? or does it rely on a created map?
13:59<frosch123>nogo runs after map creation, but before the game starts
13:59<frosch123>so it can change some stuff after map creation
13:59<frosch123>but not much
13:59<frosch123>e.g. it could create a road network
14:01<@Alberth>NGC3982: nml is simpler than C#, and 'compilation' is as simple as nmlc foo.nml :)
14:03<xiong>Nothing? That seems extreme.
14:03<frosch123>well, none of the usual ottd plugins
14:03<frosch123>source code can of course change stuff
14:04<frosch123>and of course you can make a scenario :p
14:04<xiong>I see 'TerraGenesis'. Does that merely create landforms or does it also allocate towns and industries?
14:04<frosch123>it only does the height
14:04<xiong>Ah.
14:05<xiong>I think there's sufficient control over that.
14:05<frosch123>maybe also sea, if you consider that part of height
14:05<xiong>I'm only concerned about towns and industries.
14:06<NGC3982>Alberth: oh, i see.
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14:06<xiong>Perhaps it would be enough to write a NewGRF to *evaluate* town and industry distribution after creation; one could then simply chuck it and try again.
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14:07<frosch123>oh, i think you can write a nogo script which scores the map, sends the result to the admin port, and some external device on the admin port triggers a new game
14:08<NGC3982>Alberth: where do i look for examples of "setting an industry to <accept thing> and therefor <produce another>"?
14:08<NGC3982>:)
14:08<frosch123>google for nml tutorial
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14:10<NGC3982>ok
14:10*andythenorth ponders registering for simuscape
14:10<andythenorth>NGC3982: opengfx+ industries might help you
14:10<andythenorth>or manual industries grf
14:10<andythenorth>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/
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14:14<xiong>frosch123, That's exactly the outline of my idea; thanks.
14:14<xiong>I appreciate the thought, andythenorth; but I'm not sure that's my direction.
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14:26<NGC3982>andythenorth: i see.
14:33<NGC3982>http://i.imgur.com/tT6Bd.png
14:38<@Alberth>adding some violence to the game?
14:41<andythenorth>that's for the new disasters framework I think
14:41<andythenorth>vehicles can destroy buildings
14:41<andythenorth>ships can sink
14:41<andythenorth>bridges collapse
14:41*andythenorth ponders
14:41<andythenorth>how did it get established that micro-management is bad?
14:42<@Alberth>did you know Python does not really support nested classes? :)
14:42<andythenorth>I do now :P
14:43<supermop>i like micromanagement
14:43<@Alberth>micro management is mostly bad because it scales badly, perhaps?
14:43<andythenorth>Alberth: is that wrt to some of the classes-in-classes I have?
14:43*Alberth nods
14:43<supermop>i want to be able to fire my bus driver if he disobeys the timetable
14:43<andythenorth>Alberth ach, is it a problem I should be fixing?
14:45<@Alberth>I would, I am not sure how much of it works by sheer luck, and how much is supported
14:46<andythenorth>so I just move the class defs out, change any self.fooclass stuff
14:46<andythenorth>should still work
14:46<@Alberth>and your editor does not show trailing white space :)
14:46<andythenorth>I could teach it
14:47<@Alberth>it might scare you
14:48<andythenorth>ha
14:49<andythenorth>found an option: Strip trailing whitespace
14:49<andythenorth>think it does it on save
14:49<andythenorth>I should disable 'force newline at end' :P
14:50<@Alberth>nah, EOL at end is good :)
14:51<@Alberth>(assuming 'end' is EOF)
14:52<@Alberth>vi does that for 30 years already :)
14:57<@planetmaker>andythenorth, you're also using TextWrangler, aren't you?
14:57<andythenorth>yup
14:57<@planetmaker>Kinda since I use that, that option works quite nicely for me ;-)
14:57<andythenorth>you didn't happen to teach it nml did you?
14:57<@planetmaker>Caused on some devzone projects quite some whitespace commits :-P
14:57<@planetmaker>no, I didn't yet :-(
14:58<andythenorth>I read the start of the docs on syntax colouring, ran away
14:58<andythenorth>I use ANSI C for nml
14:58<andythenorth>kind of works
14:59<@planetmaker>:-) yeah... the same for me with the syntax colouring texts
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15:18<@Alberth>andy: you can gain a lot of readability by a little more careful vertical alignment, I think
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15:24*planetmaker aligns andy vertically and reads him
15:26<@Alberth>http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/1178/ some small changes :)
15:27*Alberth always wondered why all stars of the universe are in a flat plane
15:28<@Alberth>andy: and a lot of variable documentation comments could be @ivar epydocs :)
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16:12<Eddi|zuHause><frosch123> how many of you have a russian supermarket in their neighbourhood? <-- that was called "russenmagazin" over here... but it kinda disappeared in the 1990s :p
16:13<frosch123>well, the cookies i bought were crap
16:13<frosch123>i put them in the oven for 15 minutes, and they tasted better :)
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16:50<supermop>do maglevs or monorails have different acelleration in game?
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16:50<frosch123>yes
16:51<supermop>is this a property of the track type or the trains?
16:51<frosch123>maglev have no friction and no tractive effort; only power
16:51<supermop>and monorail?
16:51<frosch123>it's a property of the track type
16:51<@planetmaker>track types choose an acceleration model. Monorail... has it's own iirc
16:52<frosch123>http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/Action0/Railtypes#Acceleration_model_.2815.29
16:52<frosch123>says only maglev is different
16:52<andythenorth>hmm
16:52<@planetmaker>ok :-)
16:52<andythenorth>1/8 long cargo sprites
16:52<andythenorth>meh to that
16:52<frosch123>monorail has a different curve speed modifier though
16:53<supermop>so if someone wanted a set with say rubber tired trains, or alweg monorails, is there a model to ascribe to that track type to give it different behaviour from steel wheel on steel rail?
16:53*andythenorth just sped up pixa by 1/8 :P
16:53<frosch123>supermop: rubber tired trains would be a property of the train
16:53<frosch123>i.e. their tractive effort coefficient would be higher
16:53<@planetmaker>supermop, different wheels don't change the accel model. Just the TE
16:55<supermop>so if i wanted to say 'these monorails, metros, people-movers, etc have rubber tires so they accelerate faster, can better negotiate steep grades etc'
16:55<supermop>i would do that by just giving all of those vehicles a higher TE?
16:55<@planetmaker>^^
16:56<supermop>is te set by new grf or automatically calculated in game?
16:56<@planetmaker>it's a property you have to set as newgrf author
16:56<frosch123>http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/Action0/Vehicles/Trains#Coefficient_of_tractive_effort_.281F.29
16:57<frosch123>resp. http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/NML:Vehicles#Train_properties :)
16:58<supermop>so monorail doesnt have any inherent differences from rail?
16:58<frosch123>trains can drive faster in curves
16:58<supermop>ok
16:59<frosch123>see "curve speed advantage multiplier" on the railtype property page
16:59<supermop>is that alterable in the railtype newgrf?
16:59*andythenorth wonders how pixa can go faster
16:59<frosch123>yes
16:59*andythenorth suspects severe lack of optimisation :P
17:00<supermop>so i can adjust the amount of curve bonus it gets?
17:00<frosch123>http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/NML:Vehicles http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/NML:Railtypes <- just read those two pages
17:00<frosch123>and you know everything which can be changed about acceleration
17:01<frosch123>via newgrfs
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17:17*andythenorth -> sleep
17:17<andythenorth>bye
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17:21<frosch123>night
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17:40<NGC3982>is there any way for me to move large quantities of vehichles into a new group?
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17:46<NGC3982>what the
17:46<NGC3982>i cant get the autoreplace to work
17:47<NGC3982>http://i.imgur.com/qoa1s.png
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17:49<@planetmaker>NGC3982: from what you sho, the autoreplace is active
17:49<@planetmaker>trains need to be able to visit depots though
17:50<NGC3982>i sent them to depot, clicked the start button, and it ..just sits there.
17:50<@planetmaker>hm... though maybe the error is: you can only replace diesel by electric in an electric depot
17:50<@planetmaker>the sh40 is electric
17:50<NGC3982>ooh!
17:50<NGC3982>of course, i dont have electric rail.
17:51<NGC3982>thank you.
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18:11<@Terkhen>good night
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18:53<Rhamphoryncus>That's a little strange. My grasshopper slows down in tunnels.
18:53<Eddi|zuHause>too high wind resistance?
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19:04<Eddi|zuHause>i have a feeling harddrives get louder over time
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19:15<Rhamphoryncus>Too high wind resistance?
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19:48<xiong>What is the $600 'other' charge?
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21:05<Eddi|zuHause>how does a ~ directory grow to 80000 subdirectories?
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21:39<Rhamphoryncus>Hrm. Someone told me that a caboose doesn't affect loading/unloading time if it's larger than the station. It's a lie. :P
21:42<Rhamphoryncus>A tiny overhang might be tolerable, but it still has an effect
21:42<Eddi|zuHause>that may have been changed in the past
21:42<Rhamphoryncus>ahh
21:43<Rhamphoryncus>My trains are listed as 4.1. They don't even occupy the preceding block, but it's still enough to maybe double the load/unload time
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22:09<xiong>So who thought up the extra zoom levels?
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---Logclosed Wed Mar 07 00:00:38 2012