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#openttd IRC Logs for 2012-03-07

---Logopened Wed Mar 07 00:00:38 2012
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01:23<Pikka>what's the difference between a horse?
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03:00<Pikka>allo handy
03:02<andythenorth>peeka boo
03:08<andythenorth>hmm
03:08<andythenorth>do we have minions?
03:08<andythenorth>I could use some minions right now
03:08<Pikka>onion minions
03:08<Pikka>what do you want minions for?
03:09<Pikka>don't you have robotic procedural minions?
03:09<andythenorth>I still have to draw dots on top of templates purposes of locating cargos for
03:10<Pikka>curses
03:12<andythenorth>could be worse :|
03:12<Pikka>indeed!
03:12<andythenorth>definitely minion worthy
03:12<andythenorth>maybe I could crowd source it!
03:12<Pikka>you could be trying to draw a pendodildo
03:13<andythenorth>can't you use the one from BROS? Now available in range of lengths :P
03:13<Pikka>the crowd doesn't make very good minions in my experience
03:13<Pikka>I haven't actually looked at their sprites lately
03:13<Pikka>maybe I should to bolster my sense of superiority :P
03:14<Pikka>mine only comes in 8/8 though
03:14<andythenorth>changing lengths is the new thing
03:14<Pikka>perhaps one day releasing grfs will be the new thing
03:16*andythenorth will bake a cake that day
03:16<andythenorth>cake 1.0
03:16<Pikka>CAKE
03:16<andythenorth>FISH, CHIPS and CAKE
03:23<Pikka>there
03:23<Pikka>if I make the doors 2cc, I can probably get away with using the same pattern on the voyagers for virgin and cross country :)
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03:52*andythenorth discovers the 'run' commands in his text editor :P
03:52<andythenorth>including the one that opens the .py file in pdb
03:52<andythenorth>how interesting
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04:20<andythenorth>hmm
04:21<andythenorth>moving coils into the right place is boring
04:21<andythenorth>that can wait
04:22<andythenorth>Pikka: got any square tarp loads?
04:22*andythenorth is pondering auto-tarp loads in multiple colours....
04:22<Pikka>yarp
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04:27<Pikka>http://www.pruplethingz.com/junk/itsatarp.png
04:30<andythenorth>ta much
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04:45<@peter1138>it's not 32bpp extra zoom!
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04:46<Pikka>that's what you think!
04:55<andythenorth>Pikka: I'm about to apply the viral evil of GPL to your tarps....that ok?
04:55<Pikka>go ahead
04:55<andythenorth>ta
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05:25<lugo>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kztNWdhRdnw
05:26<lugo>it's 32bpp!!1 "images not representative to gameplay"
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07:05<Pikka>erlvome back andy
07:05<Pikka>oh no obiwan errors
07:05<Pikka>welcome
07:06<Eddi|zuHause>it's the obiwan convention
07:06<Pikka>urd
07:06<Pikka>or twa
07:07<Eddi|zuHause>what's a zes? :p
07:07<Pikka>oh you europeans and your funny keyboards
07:09<__ln__>oh you australians and your yoghurt trees
07:10<Pikka>they're not my yoghurt trees
07:10<Eddi|zuHause>so... what makes kio_file use 100% cpu and 200kB/s disk access?
07:10<Pikka>hijinks, Eddi|zuHause
07:12<Eddi|zuHause>next time i'm copying whole filesystems instead of 400000 small files in 80000 directories
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08:57<@Belugas>hello
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09:09<Pikka>hello Belugas
09:09<Pikka>hello tablecat
09:10<andythenorth>hello iggle piggle
09:10<andythenorth>hello pinky ponk
09:12<Pikka>hello nordic andrew
09:12<Pikka>how goes the load of tarp?
09:12<@Belugas>hello Pikka you sir :)
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09:29<andythenorth>Pikka: the tarps are under wraps right now
09:29<andythenorth>on ice
09:29<Pikka>oh, nice.
09:29<andythenorth>baby duties
09:29<andythenorth>we had to interdict a spide
09:29<andythenorth>(that's a small spider btw)
09:29<Pikka>I see!
09:30*Pikka is trying to get back in the zone
09:30<Scuddles>how is babby formed
09:30<Pikka>scuddles shush
09:30<andythenorth>of clay
09:30<Pikka>drew some trains today, got some more to draw... D:
09:30<Pikka>and buses
09:30<Pikka>and houses
09:30<Pikka>and planes
09:30<Pikka>and industries
09:30<Scuddles>the trains were actually buses
09:30<Pikka>then who was phone
09:30<Scuddles>also you draw no plens or INDOOSTROOS
09:30<Scuddles>I was fone
09:31<andythenorth>draw draw draw
09:31*Pikka tea
09:31<Scuddles>pikkaT
09:31<Scuddles>who drinks tea at midnight
09:31<Eddi|zuHause>midnight is at 15:30?
09:31<@planetmaker>yup
09:32<Scuddles>probably is at pikkanistan
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09:47<Pikka>it's closer to 1 than midnight, but yes
09:49<Scuddles>EOORL GROOY
09:51<Pikka>lapsang souchong actually
09:53<@Belugas># Two Minutes to miiiiidnight
09:55<Scuddles>filthy gaijin drinking chinese tea
09:55<Pikka>yes
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10:34<Pikka>andythenorth: fertiliser van
10:34<@peter1138>shit wagon
10:34<Pikka>should it carry only fert and fmsp, or should it carry goods also?
10:34<Pikka>badum-tish, peter1138
10:34<@peter1138>i know right
10:35<Pikka> /me is thinking goods too... :) means those playing without industry grfs will still have it, for one thing
10:35*Pikka is, is me?
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10:42<Pikka>http://www.flickr.com/groups/leedsrailways/discuss/72157627126861671/ those were the days, eh?
10:48<Scuddles>These sure are some fancy brs
10:48<Scuddles>huehue
10:53<Pikka>BR?
10:55<Pikka>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kO2DmTnXlDA
10:59<andythenorth>Pikka: no strong opinion on fertiliser van
10:59<Pikka>ok
10:59<andythenorth>it's a palette wagon...
10:59<andythenorth>stuff on palettes fits in it
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11:00<andythenorth>or pallets :P
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11:01<Pikka>either really
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11:09<Eddi|zuHause>did the forum just die?
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11:10<Pikka>does that answer your question? :)
11:10<Eddi|zuHause>i suppose :)
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11:44*NGC3982 begins his first nml challenge.
11:45<xiong>Well, for my money, you can have a fertilizer wagon... but no refits to it.
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11:47<Pikka>it doesn't hurt to have yet another goods wagon...
11:48<Scuddles>probably a bubblecar refitted to goods
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11:48<Pikka>no bubblecars here
11:51<Pikka>I suppose this means the end of the horsedrawn zeppelin?
11:56<andythenorth>it's always useful to have more ways to carry that descriptive cargo 'goods'
11:56<Pikka>yep
11:57<andythenorth>horsedrawn zeppelin sounds highly plausible
11:57<andythenorth>like a canal boat
11:57<andythenorth>only in the sky
11:57<andythenorth>and massive
11:58<andythenorth>and explosive
11:58<TWerkhoven[l]>that depends on the gas
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12:11<Scuddles>go innawoods with ur bubbelcar
12:12<Pikka>get out you hairy little scotsman
12:13<Pikka>surely you realise it is well past bedtime
12:13<Pikka>goodnight
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13:41<NGC3982>what is the command to set max station spread?
13:42<NGC3982>oh wait
13:42<NGC3982>found it! \o/
13:42<NGC3982>google first, ask later.
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13:43<Eddi|zuHause>i'd try "set station_spread"
13:43<Eddi|zuHause>or probably "list_settings station"
13:44<NGC3982>station_spread was correct.
13:44<NGC3982>i first tried max_station_spread, t'was defeated, t'was googled.
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14:35<supermop>hi
14:35<@Terkhen>hello
14:35<supermop>i want my monorail beams to look smooth, not noisey
14:36<supermop>but that really cuts down on how much i can differentiate different angles with shades of grey
14:37<supermop>so if / looks even a bit too bright, _ and \ are too dark
14:37<supermop>unless i make them essentially the same as /
14:38<supermop>and usually all greys to expand the range doesnt work, as some faces of the beam are cool grey whereas others are warm
14:38<supermop>*using all greys
14:41<andythenorth>32bpp?
14:43<NGC3982>bah
14:44<NGC3982>i wish i could slow down the time in a server game
14:44<NGC3982>like, a day is a day, etc.
14:44<NGC3982>or at least, a day is a year
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15:08<supermop>8bpp
15:09<andythenorth>supermop: sometimes the game doesn't differentiate angles very accurately anyway
15:10<andythenorth>if you look at e.g trucks in original TTD, lots of the shading is lies :)
15:10<andythenorth>but it looks good
15:10<supermop>yeah
15:11<supermop>its the looking good part that is trouble
15:11<Rhamphoryncus>ergh. I just had the idea of using a self-regulating network to service a cluster of 14 farms x_x
15:11<supermop>also in real life most alweg style beams have tire marks on the top
15:11<supermop>not sure if i should include that
15:12<andythenorth>unlikel
15:12<supermop>and i should show concrete aggregate at full ez
15:12<Rhamphoryncus>although that'd require something like 14 dummy, 14 real, and at least a few more to keep things flowing..
15:12<supermop>so as to get noise and more chances for dithering to get subtle shades
15:13<supermop>*if i should...?
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15:15<andythenorth>supermop: full ez completely changes the situation ;)
15:19<supermop>i would rather draw at that scale now that i can and then work backwards to regular zoom
15:19<supermop>but at either size, drawing a good looking concrete beam from four angles is tricky
15:20<supermop>as are the joints of the track
15:20<supermop>as the beam has some non-negligible height
15:21<supermop>so _ to \ will be weird as I assume ottd only lets track itself have a height of zero
15:22<supermop>as an edge that looks good for \ to \ will look bad for _ to \ and vis-versa
15:24<supermop>the original monorails are thin enough and bland enough looking that it doesn't matter
15:25<supermop>can i cheat the caternary to give a real volume to the beam?
15:26<andythenorth>dunno
15:26<andythenorth>try it?
15:26<supermop>or can track have height itself?
15:31<andythenorth>not afaik
15:31<andythenorth>check the spec on railtypes, see if there's a bounding box with z
15:31<supermop>ok
15:31<andythenorth>no alberth today :|
15:31<supermop>work is so annoy - can brain storm things to do but cannot act on them
15:32<supermop>and then all of you guys are asleep when i do have time to draw
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15:33<+michi_cc>Bounding box doesn't matter, fact is a train will always be drawn exactly in the middle of the tile, so you can only fake height like in that transrapid trackset out there.
15:33<supermop>i mean at the edges of tiles
15:34<supermop>can a rail tile overlap the tile behind it
15:37<+michi_cc>Not really. OpenTTD may draw the tile behind without drawing the front tile.
15:39<supermop>so to get that effect, my monorail track should be drawn as a 'caternary'
15:39<supermop>with some ugly cheated version under incase the user turns caternary invisible
15:41<supermop>ok that might be ok
15:42<supermop>can a railtype be forced to draw fences between tiles of two different rail types?
15:43-!-Biolunar [~mahdi@blfd-4d08f251.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd
15:43<Eddi|zuHause>no, fences are hardcoded
15:44<supermop>ah
15:44<Eddi|zuHause>i had a patch once that changed fences to be removed between any company-owned land (except roads)
15:45<Eddi|zuHause>but nobody really was interested
15:46<supermop>in order to use standard station platforms etc, monorail at grade will need a trench of some kind, present in ttd graphics (not in tto),
15:46<supermop>but it is silly for two parallel track to have two parallel trenches
15:47<supermop>one wide trench would be better
15:47<supermop>if the 'step up' from trench to ground were drawn as a fence,
15:48<Eddi|zuHause>http://www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/Ravenswald%20Transport,%202.%20Mai%201988.png
15:48<supermop>then adjacent tracks would share a trench,
15:49<supermop>but you would still need the step-up 'fence' between monorail and regular rail
15:50<Eddi|zuHause>that's basically the same problem as combined catenary poles or dual track tunnels/bridges
15:50-!-lmergen [~lmergen@5352EA70.cm-6-3d.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has joined #openttd
15:51<Eddi|zuHause>http://www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/Ravenswald%20Transport,%2026.%20Apr%201988.png <- "before"
15:52<supermop>so it would need a patch?
15:52<supermop>yeah i remember your patch for fences
15:53<supermop>was suprised that it didn't go anywhere
15:53<Eddi|zuHause>supermop: i don't think fences are the right approach for your problem
15:54<supermop>well, there is still the need to create the illusion of a trench in an essentially flat tile
15:55<supermop>that or allow stations, signals, curves, et al, on bridges, and only allow monorail to be built as a bridge and never at grade
15:55<Eddi|zuHause>why? if your "rail" is only a few pixels high, no problems should be visible
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15:56<supermop>it needs to be deep too,
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15:56<Eddi|zuHause>not really sure what you're trying to do
15:56<Wolf01>'nothing
15:56<supermop>to keep the platform hight the same as a regular train, you need a lot of free space below grade,
15:57<supermop>many monorail trains extend about as far below their floor as above
15:57<__ln__>Wolf01: '
15:57<supermop>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tama_monorail
15:58<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: I remember that patch. I liked it :)
15:58<andythenorth>but I don't have commit rights :P
15:58<andythenorth>for reasons that elude me, but could probably be written into tablets of stone and left unchanged
15:58<supermop>can take a little bit of artistic livery with that, but it would be silly if the lower portion was only as high as the bogies on a regular train
16:00<Eddi|zuHause>hm... need inspiration for a riddle...
16:00<Eddi|zuHause>making a riddle, not solving
16:00<supermop>ogfx/ttdgfx solve this with the fake trench
16:01<Eddi|zuHause>i liked the TTO monorail without trench much better
16:03<NGC3982>what on earth is wrong with people
16:03<NGC3982>this KONY 2012 thing is exceeding the gettings of my nerve.
16:04<Eddi|zuHause>what's a KONY 2012?
16:04<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: riddle me this: what do you call deer with no eyes?
16:04<NGC3982>Eddi|zuHause: a over hyped project on "helping uganda" is spreading like a fire trough social medias, and people giving money to "charity".
16:07<supermop>i liked the tto monorail and bridge
16:07<NGC3982>an*
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16:12<supermop>i feel like i've discussed monorails with you previously, eddi
16:21<Eddi|zuHause>i discuss lots of thigns...
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16:44<NGC3982>hm, my server tells me i cant change wagon speed limits during network game
16:44<NGC3982>do i need to save, change it in single player and then load?
16:44<@planetmaker>yup
16:44<NGC3982>i see, thanks.
16:57<Rhamphoryncus>Woo, such a clever feeder system I made.. that completely fails to keep up with even the current low load
16:59<__ln__>http://xkcd.com/949/ so sad
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17:16<Eddi|zuHause>i'm fairly sure that's a conspiracy of the contentmafia
17:17-!-TGYoshi [~TGYoshi@86.81.146.146] has quit [Quit: Popidopidopido]
17:17<__ln__>but there are technical reasons, especially with the ever increasing use of NAT.
17:17<Wolf01>'night all
17:17-!-Wolf01 [~wolf01@host242-239-dynamic.16-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.]
17:18<frosch123>night
17:18-!-frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-4d009dd5.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
17:18<Eddi|zuHause>__ln__: that's what THEY want you to believe
17:19<@Terkhen>good night
17:19<Eddi|zuHause>__ln__: ipv6 is like 20 years old already
17:19<Eddi|zuHause>there's also UPNP and stuff
17:20<Eddi|zuHause>__ln__: btw that comic left out things like teamviewer :)
17:21<__ln__>i think teamviewer transfers stuff through their servers, so it's not very practical with a lot of data.
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17:36*andythenorth wonders
17:37<andythenorth>when doing for [pixels] in a PIL image
17:37<andythenorth>then drawing in the image, whether the scan is restarted
17:37*andythenorth hopes not
17:39<Eddi|zuHause>in general, when iterating, modifying the underlying structure is a big no-no
17:40<Rhamphoryncus>andythenorth: can you paste an example?
17:40<andythenorth>Rhamphoryncus: not trivially
17:40<Eddi|zuHause>so make a copy, and iterate over that
17:40<andythenorth>I am considering that
17:40<andythenorth>everything works currently
17:41<Eddi|zuHause>it's the only solution, not much to consider...
17:41<Rhamphoryncus>Ahh, that's what you mean. You're iterating over a PIL image while modifying it
17:41<andythenorth>yes
17:41<andythenorth>it works fine
17:41<andythenorth>but it's rather slow
17:42<Rhamphoryncus>I would expect that it's allowed in the same way lists are. Mildly discouraged, easy to screw up, but not inherently wrong
17:42<Rhamphoryncus>Iterating pixels in python is going to be slow
17:42<andythenorth>yup
17:42<andythenorth>it's fine for one pass, it's when I stack passes (repeating the scan) that it slows
17:42<andythenorth>I could scan once, then draw multiple passes
17:43<andythenorth>certainly 'scan, then draw' seems safer than 'draw whilst scanning'
17:46<andythenorth>hmm
17:47<andythenorth>I'd need to be able to call rescan() or such on demand
17:47<andythenorth>meh, optimisation :P
17:49<Rhamphoryncus>Makes me wonder if your repeated scanning is making it quadratic
17:50<andythenorth>could be
17:51<Rhamphoryncus>to which the obvious but useless reply is: don't do that
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17:53<andythenorth>let's run some times...
17:54<andythenorth>hmm
17:54<andythenorth>drawing whilst scanning, or drawing post scan, times are same
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18:02<andythenorth>hmm
18:03<andythenorth>simply cutting the number of times the image is scanned cuts render time
18:03<andythenorth>as expected :P
18:07<Mazur>Everyone underestimates the bandwidth of a truckload of tapes.
18:07<andythenorth>on a higway
18:07<andythenorth>at 65mph
18:07<Mazur>Even on a backroad at 15 mph.
18:08<Mazur>And I'm using "tapes" only as a tribute to hte original quote.
18:08<Mazur>Make it USB sticks, for all I care.
18:08-!-pugi [~pugi@host-091-097-009-231.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has quit []
18:09<Mazur>And that is how the pioneers used to do it.
18:09<andythenorth>hmm
18:10*andythenorth is going to have fun times optimising :(
18:10<Mazur>Good luck.
18:10*andythenorth optimises for sleep
18:11<andythenorth>good night
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18:12<Eddi|zuHause>Mazur: driving around a usb stick is my usual mode of transferring larger amounts of data
18:13<Eddi|zuHause>takes half an hour to fill it, and another half hour to drive over to my friend, then fill it there for half an hour and drive half an hour back
18:14<Eddi|zuHause>total transferred: tx: 8GB, rx: 8GB, in 2 hours. waaay faster than my DSL menthol...
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18:26<Mazur>Eddi|zuHause, which is why I was quoting that old quote.
18:28<Mazur>No idea who said it first, but a lot of people know it, apparently.
18:29<Mazur>Oh, possibly Dennis Ritchie, I see in one place.
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18:31<Mazur>http://www.bpfh.net/sysadmin/never-underestimate-bandwidth.html
18:31*Mazur grins.
18:33<Mazur>Never underestimate the bandwidth of a station wagon full of tapes hurtling down the highway. —Tanenbaum, Andrew S. (1996)
18:33<Mazur>Good old Andy.
18:35<Mazur>The original version of this quotation came much earlier; the very first problem in Tanenbaum's 1981 textbook Computer Networks asks the student to calculate the throughput of a St. Bernard carrying floppy disks (which are said to hold 250 kilobytes of data).
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19:00<bloopletech>Is it ok to ask about installation questions here?
19:01<Eddi|zuHause>it's definitely not ok to ask questions about asking a question
19:02<Eddi|zuHause>@topic get 3
19:02<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: Don't ask to ask, just ask
19:02<bloopletech>sure, just checking this wasn't a dev only channel
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19:03<Eddi|zuHause>you could have an answer by now, but now i'm gone...
19:03<bloopletech>I'm trying to get 1.1.5 running on my new ubuntu oneiric install. I installed the deb for 64bit from the website and installed it. I've downloaded open[g,s,m]fx from the website and put the contents of each zip in ~/.openttd/baseset
19:03<bloopletech>but when I start openttd I still get "Error: Failed to find a graphics set. Please acquire a graphics set for OpenTTD. See section 4.1 of readme.txt."
19:04<Eddi|zuHause>"baseset" is only for 1.2.0 and later, in 1.1.5 it must be "data"
19:04<+michi_cc>Section 4.1 of readme.txt would have told you that :)
19:05<bloopletech>I couldn't find th readme locally so I read the one off of trunk, which is obv. for 1.2
19:05<bloopletech>Someone might want to look at the readmes for the open* packs, one or two of them use baseset
19:06<bloopletech>thanks for the help
19:06<Eddi|zuHause>bloopletech: that'll all be obsolete once 1.2.0 is finalized
19:06<+michi_cc>I think the Open* projects all now target the not very far off 1.2.0 finak.
19:06<Eddi|zuHause>bloopletech: which is probably in a few weeks
19:07<bloopletech>Eddi|zuHause, ok thanks
19:07<+michi_cc>Unless you want exactly 1.1.5 for network play, I'd go for the 1.2 RC anyway. Much better ;)
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19:12<bloopletech>well my other computers and my friend are all on 1.1.5 right now, I think I'll just wait for the release :)
19:13<bloopletech>though saying that, this particular game is now stuck in a sound loop ;)
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20:13<NessPJ>hi all
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---Logclosed Thu Mar 08 00:00:39 2012