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#openttd IRC Logs for 2012-03-08

---Logopened Thu Mar 08 00:00:39 2012
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01:36<andythenorth>morning
01:37<Nat_aS>evining
01:37<Nat_aS>how come swaping newgrigs in the scenerio editor mode isn't more stable?
01:37<Nat_aS>I can understand how it can cause problems in game, but scenerio editor should be safe
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01:45<@peter1138>scenarios are jus games
01:45<@peter1138>+t
01:46<Nat_aS>but isn't there a way to make newgrif loading more sanatary?
01:46-!-Pikka [~chatzilla@d58-111-65-161.rdl800.qld.optusnet.com.au] has joined #openttd
01:46<Nat_aS>so the game wont crash or become corrupted?
01:49<Nat_aS>is there any way to mitigate the remove newgrif crashing?
01:49<Nat_aS>because it sucks when an old scenerio is no longer compatible because the maker bundled it with newgrifs you don't even care about.
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01:52<@planetmaker>the scenario is still compatible. you just need the proper newgrfs...
01:52<@planetmaker>and 'how come': hysterical raisins.
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02:23<andythenorth>Pikka: 'lo weebl
02:23<Pikka>sup jim
02:23<andythenorth>put a tarp on it
02:26<Pikka>I just replaced all my 1Ds cargo masks with 2C/2Ds
02:26<Pikka>hilarity shall ensue
02:28<andythenorth>'refit all'
02:28<andythenorth>'refit some'
02:28<andythenorth>'refit maybe'
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03:02<Pikka>thinks:
03:02*andythenorth sends pikka a link
03:03<andythenorth>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=68&t=58543&p=999422#p999422
03:03<andythenorth>^ needs some work still
03:03<Pikka>how rare
03:03<andythenorth>hmm
03:03<andythenorth>let's pick some more colours
03:03*Pikka tries to squeeze some cars onto those cartics...
03:04<andythenorth>pink? http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=68&t=58543&p=999423#p999423
03:05<Pikka>strange colour for a tarp
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03:06<andythenorth>greenish? http://www.tt-forums.net/download/file.php?id=156907
03:06<andythenorth>anyway, you get the idea :P
03:06<andythenorth>want a new colour? add it, get all load states, in lengths 2-8
03:08<Scuddles>those graphics just draw themselves
03:08<@planetmaker>looks tasty, andythenorth
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03:10<andythenorth>the layout is a bit horrorshow
03:10<andythenorth>hang on, I'll turn on the template
03:11<Pikka>Хорошо
03:11<andythenorth>http://www.tt-forums.net/download/file.php?id=156908
03:12<Pikka>Scuddles what are you doing here
03:12<andythenorth>the template colours are normally removed during the render
03:12<andythenorth>but they can be left in
03:14<andythenorth>so...I plan to release all the cargo sprites when done
03:15<andythenorth>so people who are terrified of the generator can paste them in with a pixel editor
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03:15<andythenorth>they're on the nml template currently
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06:57<Pikka>andythenorth: http://www.tt-forums.net/download/file.php?id=156911
06:57<Pikka>looks passable, non?
06:58<Pikka>I fixed up the roof on the yellow car a bit since the screenshot
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07:01<andythenorth>Pikka: oui
07:01<andythenorth>c'est shiny
07:02<Pikka>I'm going to have to make them carry "goods" now too so that people will actually see them :)
07:02<andythenorth>ach
07:02<andythenorth>does TAI have cars / vehicles cargos?
07:02<Pikka>nope
07:02<Pikka>but if you take steel and plastic and lumber to a factory, it seems reasonable that cars might come out?
07:03<andythenorth>yup
07:03<andythenorth>I'm adding an auto-plant to FIRS at some point
07:03<andythenorth>I'll do an economy featuring it
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07:11<andythenorth>Pikka: you made it a full 4-car set ;)
07:11<andythenorth>I notice...
07:12<Pikka>and why not? :]
07:12<andythenorth>indeed
07:13<andythenorth>the rivet-counters might pop up and point out problems....
07:13<andythenorth>inner / outer wagons have different shapes
07:13<Pikka>like?
07:13<Pikka>hmm
07:13<Ammler>what's a 4-car set?
07:13<Pikka>well, near enough :D
07:13<Pikka>cartic Ammler
07:13<Pikka>http://www.tt-forums.net/download/file.php?id=156911
07:13<andythenorth>http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/brcartic4
07:14<Pikka>eh, the ends look near enough the same to the middle for TTD scale
07:14<Pikka>I gave the outer ends different buffers/bogies...
07:15<andythenorth>;)
07:16<Pikka>http://www.pruplethingz.com/junk/cars.png
07:17<Pikka>they're zimmlock's town cars mangled down to fit the diagonals, fully GPLable.
07:17<Pikka>now the question is do I go back and replace the ones on the flat cars with these ones, or leave them with the "full sized" ones...
07:18<Pikka>I can't really be bothered, is the answer, I'll leave them :)
07:22<andythenorth>leave them
07:22<andythenorth>cargo generator!
07:22<Pikka>well
07:22<Pikka>I'd have to mangle down the older generation cars too
07:22<Pikka>and I can't be bothered :)
07:22<Pikka>not that it would take more than a couple of minutes
07:23<NGC3982>hm
07:23<NGC3982>what does regulate the dissaperance of an industry?
07:23<NGC3982>the lack of transportated goods?
07:23<Pikka>what kind of industry, NGC3982?
07:24<NGC3982>any. i notice that building a station close to an industry - and not using it makes it disappear
07:24<NGC3982>dissapear
07:24<NGC3982>for god sake
07:24<NGC3982>disappear
07:25<Pikka>newgrfs can shut down industries whenever they like. default primary industries will shut down if they are already at lowest production and try to decrease. default secondary industries I think are polled every now and then and will shut down if they haven't recieved cargo in a few years.
07:26<NGC3982>ah, i see.
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08:27<andythenorth>Pikka-boodle: http://www.tt-forums.net/download/file.php?id=156913
08:27*andythenorth should fix the alignment
08:28<andythenorth>tempting to splurge on randomisation of this :P
08:28<andythenorth>but how many cargo sprites can a set use anyway? :P
08:28<Pikka>I'll assume that's a rhetorical question :)
08:28<andythenorth>only partly
08:28<andythenorth>how many cargo sprites can a set us?
08:28<andythenorth>+1
08:28<andythenorth>gah
08:29<andythenorth>I think I'll just cut my fingers off as they have forgotten how to type
08:29<Pikka>no limit, andy
08:29*andythenorth blames ipads and the silly, stabby, one finger pokey keyboard thing
08:30<andythenorth>well variations get trivial
08:30<andythenorth>2 small tarps, 2 big tarps, 1 small 1 big, 1 big 1 small
08:30<andythenorth>same colour, different colour etc etc
08:30<Pikka>mmhm
08:30<andythenorth>it's only a matter of how many rules to write out :P
08:30<Pikka>in my experience, for any given load 4 variations is enough
08:31<andythenorth>moi aussi
08:31<Pikka>gives you enough of a "random" look, any more is just tmwftlb
08:31<andythenorth>any more than 4, and I'd be thinking about also having pixa generate some of the code to use them
08:31<Pikka>the nfo/nfl? :P
08:31<andythenorth>yeah those
08:31<andythenorth>generating nfo might suck :P
08:31<Pikka>just random action 2... not hard. :)
08:32<andythenorth>I could generate the action 1 / realsprites
08:32<Pikka>unless you want to do odder things, of course
08:32<andythenorth>but rather not tbh
08:32<Pikka>yes\p
08:32<Pikka>and yes
08:32<Pikka>and yep
08:33*andythenorth smells FISH
08:33<Pikka>could be the baby
08:33<andythenorth>probly
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08:35<andythenorth>all those boats...get lower in the water while being loaded with invisible cargo
08:35<andythenorth>most strange
08:35<Pikka>mm fish
08:43<Pikka>ah, 1930
08:44<Pikka>when planes make $10,000 a year and airports cost $1,000,000 a year to operate.
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08:51<andythenorth>oh
08:51*andythenorth made a tactical error
08:51<andythenorth>toddler has seen ottd on my screen
08:52<andythenorth>'make train'
08:52<Pikka>oh no :)
08:52<andythenorth>is there a 0.2.0 UKRS for him to try?
08:52<Pikka>not yet
08:53<andythenorth>'nvm
08:53<Pikka>I've got distracted by working out running costs for airports
08:54<andythenorth>'bang the truck'
08:57<@planetmaker>how old is your toddler now, andythenorth ?
08:57<andythenorth>2
08:57<@planetmaker>dangerous age ;-)
08:58<@planetmaker>but I guess the only non-dangerous age is above 25 or so :-P
08:58<andythenorth>dangerous for ottd trucks right
08:58<andythenorth>we need more disasters
08:58<andythenorth>toddlers like disasters
08:59<Pikka>just build the ol' railway snaking across the busy road, andythenorth
08:59<@planetmaker>newgrf-disasters
08:59<@planetmaker>But maybe rather via game scripts
09:00<andythenorth>20m views for this :P http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GYKs8r94Ns0
09:01<andythenorth>bbl
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09:04<@Belugas>hello
09:05<Pikka>hello Belugas
09:05<@Belugas>sir Pikka :) it's getting an habit to see you around heheh
09:06<Pikka>that's because I quit my job! :)
09:06<Pikka>and consider myself on a grf-writing holiday until april 1st
09:11<@Belugas>ho?
09:11<@Belugas>that's bad
09:11<@Belugas>well..
09:12<@Belugas>maybe...
09:12<@Belugas>why?
09:13<@Belugas>mmh...not my business. As long as you're happy with your decision ;0 It's what matters
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09:44<Pikka>lol, sorry, was afk
09:44<Pikka>because I figure I have better things to do with my time. ;) I'll be trying to make a living off my wits... but I'm taking it easy until after 1.2.0 is out. :P I have my holiday pay to keep me going for the moment.
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09:48<Eddi|zuHause>hm... in libreoffice, in a table, how can i change the style of individual line segments?
09:49<Pikka>wb andy
09:50<andythenorth>'lo
09:50<andythenorth>it was for the battery I had to go
09:50<andythenorth>[and the lego truck]
09:52<Scuddles>more like pikka is going to be a professional realm of the mad god player
09:52<Pikka>yes
09:53*andythenorth needs a can of faster
09:54<andythenorth>or somebody to wave 'premature optimisation' at him :P
09:55<andythenorth>hmm
09:55<andythenorth>maybe I can cache the scan of the image, and only rescan when I know it's needed
09:56<andythenorth>currently, if a vehicle has 4 render passes, and 4 colour options, and 8 cargo options....
09:56<andythenorth>@calc 4 * 4 * 7
09:56<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: 112
09:56<andythenorth>120 scans :o
09:56<andythenorth>and scanning seems slow
09:56<andythenorth>whereas....1 might be enough
09:57<andythenorth>is there someone who is a better programmer than me?
09:59<TinoDidriksen>...when you say scan, what is the context? Going over all pixels?
10:00<andythenorth>yes
10:00<andythenorth>familiar with PIL at all?
10:01<TinoDidriksen>Nope, I don't do Python.
10:05<andythenorth>nvm
10:05<andythenorth>I basically rely on scanning all pixels in an image, from top-left, in rows
10:06<andythenorth>repeatedly :P
10:07<TinoDidriksen>Why?
10:07<+michi_cc>Because you have no better idea or because some newly painted pixels are input themselves?
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10:37<andythenorth>because I have no better idea yet
10:37<andythenorth>I didn't want to optimise too early
10:38<andythenorth>what I need is some way to cache the scan, storing only the significant pixels
10:38<andythenorth>and also a method to invalidate the cache on demand
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10:39<andythenorth>I may be using unwise methods in PIL, it might have ways to turn the image into an iterable sequence that are faster than examining every pixel
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10:49<+michi_cc>andythenorth: Scan once and simply make an array/vector/dict/list with [x, y, value] and then work from that.
10:49<+michi_cc>Only for the interesting pixels of course.
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10:50<andythenorth>yeah, that's my thinking
10:51<andythenorth>I'm trying to figure out how to do that only once
10:51<andythenorth>I want to do it inside the module, without forcing a rewrite of existing client code
10:52<andythenorth>hmm
10:52*andythenorth may have a solution
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11:26<andythenorth>hmm
11:26<andythenorth>caching the scan gives me a 50% reduction in run time
11:27<andythenorth>~5s to generate ~100 images
11:27<andythenorth>instead of ~10s
11:28<TinoDidriksen>What does the scan do? What are you changing with a scan?
11:29<andythenorth>it reads the x, y, colour of each pixel
11:29-!-smoovi [~smoovi@e178196062.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #openttd
11:30<TinoDidriksen>...but why? There's a distinct lack of algorithm details.
11:31<andythenorth>TinoDidriksen: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=998325#p998325
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11:40<andythenorth>I could also more deeply cache everything that needs to be drawn, instead of iterating over my cached list n times
11:40<andythenorth>but I don't think that's the slow bit :P
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12:07<andythenorth>hmm
12:08<andythenorth>I need to teach pixa about being made with a makefile or such
12:09<Pixa>I totally know about makefiles
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12:13<andythenorth>so I don't really grok what I need to do yet
12:14<andythenorth>I have main.py, which imports modules (for graphics to be generated) and calls render on them
12:14<andythenorth>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/bandit/repository/entry/misc/pixel_generator/main.py
12:14<andythenorth>I want to switch to parallel rendering, which make should be able to figure out
12:15<andythenorth>I could write some kind of despatcher to wrap around each module, or give it a __main__ method
12:15<andythenorth>or make main.py understand args
12:16<andythenorth>clues?
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12:46<NGC3982>args?
12:46<NGC3982>aaarrrrrggggs!
12:47<NGC3982>and a chest of scallywags
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12:50<Fujikurax1337>hi. i need som help to setup a server in OpenTTD
12:51-!-Chris_Booth [~chatzilla@host86-152-93-63.range86-152.btcentralplus.com] has joined #openttd
12:52<Fujikurax1337>anyone here done this before?
12:52<__ln__>nobody, never
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12:53<Ammler>lol
12:54<Fujikurax1337>arrgh. for what it says on the net is a mess
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12:55<NGC3982>Fujikurax1337: really?
12:56<NGC3982>Fujikurax1337: what operating system are you on?
12:56<Ammler>you did not mention one issue, yet
12:56<@planetmaker>god created the hardware and wrote the software, and mixed it to an OpenTTD server. Thus the eigths day passed.
12:56<NGC3982>(correction: seventeen years)
12:56<Fujikurax1337>tried on Linux and win7. open port 3979 is done.
12:56-!-Progman [~progman@p57A1A9D2.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd
12:57<+glx>@ports
12:57<@DorpsGek>glx: OpenTTD uses TCP and UDP port 3979 for server <-> client communication, UDP port 3978 for masterserver (advertise) communication (outbound), and TCP port 3978 for content service, a.k.a. BaNaNaS (outbound)
12:57<+glx>it works for everyone else
12:58<Ammler>your issue might be the forward from your router to your pc
12:58<Ammler>but today router should have easy "game config wizards" :-)
12:59<@planetmaker>Fujikurax1337, the first questions coming to my mind are:
12:59<@planetmaker>- what documentation did you read?
12:59<@planetmaker>- what did you do in detail to make it work?
12:59<@planetmaker>- what did you see?
12:59<@planetmaker>- what did you expect to see?
12:59-!-perk11 [~perk11@46.242.11.118] has joined #openttd
13:00<@planetmaker>literally. Not just qualitatively
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13:02<Fujikurax13377>But it's not like there to be only and press the multi-game and it's up and running?
13:03<+glx>no it's a real client-server
13:04<+glx>but if port 3979 is correctly forwarded it should just work
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13:06<+glx>the best test is to enable advertise and check http://servers.openttd.org
13:07<+glx>because with some crappy routers even if everything works you may not see your server from inside your network
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13:09<Ammler>Fujikurax13377: I would assume like with every other game server you setup or with torrents or other p2p
13:12<@planetmaker>mind that you allow port 3979 for both TCP and UDP in- and outgoing and port 3978 outgoing for both UDP and TCP
13:12<@planetmaker>on both your personal firewall as well your router's
13:13<@planetmaker>in 99% of the cases people swear they set all that, but find out they didn't ;-)
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13:21<Ammler>if you need to bother about outgoing, you stay in a strange place :-)
13:23<Fujikurax13377>TCP/UDP 3979
13:30<Fujikurax13377>in RUN i type in "openttd -d" then blabla...
13:31<+glx>-d is debug
13:31<+glx>you need -D for server
13:31<+glx>unless you start server via ingame gui
13:32<Fujikurax13377> -D*
13:32<@planetmaker>windows users are usually blissfully ignorant of case :-)
13:33<Fujikurax13377>is there any software I can use and set up an OpenTTD server? apart from the play itself.
13:34<Fujikurax13377>for it does not work.
13:34<+glx>what does the console say when you start with -D ?
13:34<+glx>is there any advertising related lines ?
13:35<Fujikurax13377>just a moment
13:35<Fujikurax13377>okey
13:37<Fujikurax13377>We are not recevingthe acknowledgement fromthe server. pleaseallpw udp and tcp packets to port 3979 to be delivered.
13:37<Fujikurax13377>please allow*
13:38<+glx>ok, if forwarding is correct it's your ISP
13:38-!-morph__ [~4e547932@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has joined #openttd
13:38<Fujikurax13377>ISP is? :P
13:39<+glx>internet provider
13:39<morph__>Anyone can send me Avignon installation for Linux (or source)?
13:39<morph__>I can't find the god damn installation anywhere :(
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13:42<Fujikurax13377>that suck*. why so difficult.just want to play the game with a friend over the net.
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13:45<@planetmaker>morph__: the authors are dihedral and Osai. Ask them
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: translators * r24018 /trunk/src/lang/ (5 files in 2 dirs):
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: danish - 21 changes by mgarde
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: french - 7 changes by OliTTD
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: luxembourgish - 8 changes by Phreeze
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: norwegian_bokmal - 25 changes by mantaray
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: tamil - 40 changes by aswn
13:45<morph__>OK, thanks :)
13:45<@planetmaker>the page is down for ages, though
13:45<morph__>I got to Google results page 15
13:46<morph__>You know it doesn't exist when you get to page 2 to be honest
13:46<morph__>:)
13:46<@planetmaker>yup
13:46<@planetmaker>and to my knowledge it never made it to a production-state
13:46<@planetmaker>or our server would use it ;-)
13:47<morph__>I want ANYTHING that can help me add goal system to my server
13:47<morph__>ANYTHING
13:47<morph__>Im few steps from starting to code something myself
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13:47<+glx>just write a game script
13:47<@planetmaker>morph__: goals are to be made with goal scripts
13:47<morph__>Do those work in multiplayer?
13:47<@planetmaker>of course
13:48<morph__>*having an idiot moment*
13:48<morph__>What about the console commands ?
13:48<morph__>Like I want to implement the good old !resetme
13:48<@planetmaker>that's not a goal :-)
13:48<morph__>I can do it with the likes of Autopilot etc. only, amirite?
13:49<@planetmaker>that's work for the admin port
13:49<morph__>Admin port?
13:49<@planetmaker>did you risk a look at the documentation which is shipped with openttd?
13:50<@planetmaker>admin port is what is meant as the better thing in order to not need a wrapper like ap+
13:50<@planetmaker>I know two libraries, but no working bot connecting to the admin port
13:50<@planetmaker>well. a working dummy bot
13:50<@planetmaker>so you need to add what you actually want it to do. written in java
13:50<@planetmaker>called joan, also found on the devzone
13:51<morph__>I will check it out
13:51<morph__>Thanks
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13:52<morph__>Openttd is an addiction!
13:52<@planetmaker>if you extend it... please consider to publish your extensions
13:53<@planetmaker>dihedral, should consider to release joan under the agpl instead ;-)
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14:03<morph__>Please kill me - Oops! Google Chrome could not connect to hudson.dihedral.de
14:08<Fujikurax13377>Friend has a different IPS and it worked either. He also opened port 3979. is there anything porgramvare that I can start a server that is easy?
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14:09<Fujikurax13377>programvare = software
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14:36<@Alberth>moin
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14:39<Pikka>hmm @ youtube comments
14:40<Pikka>good morning Alberth
14:40<@Alberth>you didn't assume they'd make any sense did you :)
14:40<Pikka>often they don't
14:40<andythenorth>Alberth: :)
14:41<andythenorth>Pikka: often for a vanishingly large definition of often
14:41<andythenorth>I assume they're just bots, spamming
14:41<andythenorth>can't be actual humans that thick
14:41<andythenorth>I never meet any
14:41<Pikka>but this one is just... possibly one of the truest and least necessary things ever said.
14:41<Pikka>"Mozart > Justin Bieber"
14:42<@Alberth>andythenorth: websites have not yet learned how to avoid such people :p
14:42<andythenorth>I suspect a small number of hackers having a game of "turing test, but goal is to fake the stupidest person on planet"
14:42<andythenorth>I grew up in a very rough place with some quite stupid people, but still not as stupid as youtube
14:43<andythenorth>we had the highest murder rate in the country, 4th worst place to live, but still not as stupid as youtube
14:43<@Alberth>so it must be really bad in the other 3 places :)
14:43<andythenorth>my wife is from one of them :P
14:43<andythenorth>it's very odd
14:43<Pikka>whence, andythenorth?
14:43<andythenorth>anyway, andythenorth had a question for Alberth but has forgotten it :o
14:44<andythenorth>Pikka: my wife? Merthyr
14:44<@Alberth>it'll come back
14:44<Pikka>how rare
14:44<andythenorth>Pikka: Mozart > Justin Bieber is at least logically sound
14:44<Pikka>true
14:44<andythenorth>the argument is a valid argument
14:44<andythenorth>may not be true
14:45<Pikka>well just how true it is is what shocks me
14:45<@Alberth>Mozart is probably less tall :D
14:45<Pikka>certainly now, Alberth
14:45<@Alberth>minor detail :)
14:45<Pikka>no decomposition jokes please
14:45<andythenorth>oh that's the grue problem in philosophy
14:46<andythenorth>can't remember it
14:46<andythenorth>skipped some of that lecture
14:46<andythenorth>I was present, just not...attending
14:46<SpComb>it is dark
14:46<andythenorth>I was physically co-located with a lecture, but not in it :P
14:47<Pikka>you weren't paying attention is what you're saying, in essence.
14:47<@Alberth>he was paying attention to other things :p
14:48<Pikka>whiskers on roses and raindrops on kittens?
14:49<andythenorth>indeed
14:50-!-valhallasw [~valhallas@193.52.24.37] has joined #openttd
14:50*Alberth installs blender
14:50<andythenorth>maybe my question was 'how do I make it go faster' :P
14:51<Pikka>stick ginger up its bum, I'm told
14:52<andythenorth>ImportError: No module named ginger
14:53<andythenorth>Alberth: oh I remember
14:53<andythenorth>you told me some things a few nights ago - but left before I could say thanks ;)
14:53<andythenorth>not a question
14:53<andythenorth>I'm doing those things / have committed them already
14:54<@Alberth>yw, and I hope you like the improvements :)
14:58<andythenorth>I learnt some new python
14:58<andythenorth>I need to learn how to document class properly
14:58<andythenorth>my docs are a mess
14:59<andythenorth>extend() was new to me ;)
14:59<@Alberth>you wrote the 2nd program I used it in :)
14:59<andythenorth>I got a ~50% speedup this afternoon
15:00<@Alberth>nice :)
15:01<@Alberth>as for documentation, I mentioned epydoc already iirc ;)
15:01<andythenorth>yes
15:01<andythenorth>I just need to learn the format
15:02<andythenorth>it's also time to figure out how to structure the project so it has a config file, only builds what's needed etc
15:02<andythenorth>currently I have to comment things in / out of main.py
15:03-!-supermop [~daniel_er@rrcs-72-43-171-87.nyc.biz.rr.com] has joined #openttd
15:04<@Alberth>@ivar / @type for instance variables, @param / @type for parameters, and @return / @rtype for return values. In the comment lines, C{foo} is 'code' / 'constant', and L{bar} creates a link to 'bar'
15:04<andythenorth>the purpose of the link is...?
15:04<@Alberth>if you want to see how it looks just have epydoc generate some html for you :)
15:05<andythenorth>I've seen it before - it's widely used?
15:05<@Alberth>links are for catching those mouse clicks :)
15:05<andythenorth>oh ok link in the output
15:05<@Alberth>the other system is what Python itself uses, sphinx
15:06<@Alberth>links are also useful for saying 'this is documented elsewhere' as well
15:07<@Alberth>I hardly ever generate html, just the doc strings are sufficient for me
15:08<@Alberth>have not used sphinx much, iirc the format is a bit more free-style. I prefer a more fixed form, as it reduces the need to think about the format :p
15:08<supermop>hi
15:09<@Alberth>hi supermop
15:09<supermop>is Berlin nice in the summer?
15:09<__ln__>it is
15:11<andythenorth>it's fricking cold in winter
15:11*andythenorth went there once
15:14<@Alberth>not much sea around Berlin :)
15:16<supermop>i imagine that would keep it as bit too hot then
15:18<__ln__>don't worry, the temperatures are a lot lower because of the Celsius scale being used rather than Fahrenheit.
15:20<supermop>haha
15:21<supermop>was eavesdropping on germans at lunch, and the weather was super nice today, so it made me think about visiting germany this summer
15:22<supermop>berlin being the city i'd most want to visit as i've yet to see it
15:24<__ln__>it is certainly a city worth visiting
15:25<andythenorth>so what I can't figure out...is whether to make each gestalt completely self-contained
15:25<andythenorth>and hard code in all the input files, paths, output filenames etc
15:25-!-sla_ro|master [slaco@95.76.26.172] has quit [Quit: DANGER sla.ro is OFFLINE DANGER]
15:26<andythenorth>or whether to make them accept args
15:26<andythenorth>and then how to call them with make, so multiple pixa scripts can run at once
15:27<@Alberth>euhm, if you use different filenames, you can run pixas in parallel whether or not they have arguments
15:29<andythenorth>so I need to unconflate two things in my small brain
15:29<andythenorth>(1) running in parallel
15:29<andythenorth>(2) being able to have a specific script build only certain things
15:29<andythenorth>both relate to reducing time for generation
15:30<andythenorth>(1) is build faster... (2) is build less... :)
15:32<__ln__>supermop: btw, i know a really nice hostel in Berlin.. (if a hostel is the kind of accommodation you would use)
15:33<supermop>typically - not that old yet
15:34<@Alberth>andythenorth: using make for 2 eliminates the need to build it yourself. and it can do 1 too (somewhat limited, but sufficient for normal purposes)
15:35<@Alberth>the downside of using make is that you have to tell make what you want it to build
15:35<andythenorth>I know :(
15:35<andythenorth>and I don't know how to do that
15:35<__ln__>supermop: ok, here it is: http://www.hostelworld.com/hosteldetails.php/Grand-Hostel-Berlin/Berlin/34160 (it's in the former american sector)
15:35<andythenorth>I've read make docs before
15:35<@Alberth>do you have that information at all?
15:36<andythenorth>I could work it out, if I knew what was needed
15:36<andythenorth>compared to python multiprocessing module docs, make is opaque :P
15:36<andythenorth>I even found a simple shell example to start n scripts in parallel :o
15:36<@Alberth>yeah, people do the strangest things :p
15:37<@Alberth>do you understand what is specifed in a Makefile?
15:37<@Alberth>*specified
15:37<andythenorth>honestly, no
15:37<@Alberth>ok :)
15:37<andythenorth>I've read the coop ones. I understand individual lines of code
15:37<andythenorth>but the total pipeline / execution / stack / whatever - no clue
15:39<Rhamphoryncus>andythenorth: what's the startup overhead of pixa?
15:41<andythenorth>Rhamphoryncus: sorry, no idea :)
15:41<andythenorth>profile it?
15:41<Rhamphoryncus>Naw, easier
15:41-!-lofejndif [~lsqavnbok@214.Red-83-43-124.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #openttd
15:42<Rhamphoryncus>Pick a moderate item (nothing too large or small), render it once (using timeit from the shell). Then do it again, but make it render 10 times
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15:42<@Alberth>starting the python interpreter, and parsing/compiling the script file
15:43<Rhamphoryncus>That's an option too
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15:43<@Alberth>but startup should be almost nothing compared to the actual work
15:44<Rhamphoryncus>Test it, don't assume :)
15:45<andythenorth>'timeit', or 'time' ?
15:45<Rubidium>http://k1024.org/~iusty/blog/entry/perf-null/ ;)
15:45<Rhamphoryncus>time, sorry
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15:47<Rubidium>so you're better off with perl as that uses much fewer instructions for hello world
15:47<Rubidium>factor 5-60
15:47<Rhamphoryncus>Rubidium: interesting, thanks :)
15:49*Rubidium thinks the number of executed instructions is roughly inversely proportional with the number of written/coded instructions
15:50<Rhamphoryncus>heh
15:50<andythenorth>Rhamphoryncus: so I have test results for 1 and 10 renders
15:52<andythenorth>10: real 0m15.557s
15:52<andythenorth>1: real 0m1.607s
15:52<Rubidium><10%
15:52<Rhamphoryncus>Ahh, that's pretty good then
15:53<andythenorth>I did run a profile the other day
15:53<andythenorth>at a rough guess, quite a lot of time is simply spent drawing
15:53<andythenorth>no way around that element
15:53<Rubidium>@calc (1607-15557/10)/1607
15:53<@DorpsGek>Rubidium: 0.0319228375856
15:55<andythenorth>hmm
15:55<andythenorth>let's try the 'comment out lines' route to finding what's slow
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15:57<andythenorth>:o
15:57<Pikka>:O
15:57<andythenorth> for sx, sy, scol in sequence.get_recolouring(x, y, colourset): < takes 0.5s in my test case
15:58<andythenorth>or roughly double the amount of time compared to that line commented out
15:58<+michi_cc>andythenorth: Makefile 101: A makefile contains two different kinds of information. The first kind is: File A depends on/can be created from files B, C, D. The second kind: By executing command X, a file with type .foo is transformed into a file with type .bar. Everything else is syntax details :)
15:58<andythenorth>with the actual drawing commented in, time is about 1.5s
15:59<Rhamphoryncus>I've gotten myself curious, so I'll see if I can provide you with a dummy makefile
15:59<andythenorth>:)
15:59*andythenorth is intrigued by why get_recolouring() is so slow
16:00<andythenorth>quite likely I could cache what it's doing
16:00<Rhamphoryncus>big question: is each job described in a separate file or are they all from a single config file?
16:01<andythenorth>Rhamphoryncus: this is unknown so far
16:01<andythenorth>that's kind of my starting question :)
16:01<Rhamphoryncus>Separate files is MUCH easier
16:01<andythenorth>separate files makes sense
16:01<Rhamphoryncus>as in C: foo.c produces foo.o
16:02<andythenorth>separate files
16:04<@Alberth>Rhamphoryncus: in Java it does not make sense
16:05<Rhamphoryncus>hmm?
16:05<NGC3982>hm
16:06<NGC3982>we have two stations
16:06<NGC3982>one that recieves wheat/live, and another for the produced food
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16:06<NGC3982>suddenly, the produced food appears in the wheat/live station.
16:06<NGC3982>they are next to each other.
16:06<NGC3982>what to do?
16:07<Rhamphoryncus>You have a train/vehicle that wasn't set to only unload in the wheat/livestock station, and was capable of loading food
16:07<Rhamphoryncus>So it probably wasn't refit properly either
16:07<Rhamphoryncus>So start by opening the station window, click the train icon, and go through everything that goes there
16:08<Rhamphoryncus>An implicit order can also do it, if another train got lost and it's not non-stop
16:08<NGC3982>i see
16:08<Rhamphoryncus>After you've fixed all that.. destroy the station, rebuild a new one there (ctrl-click to avoid reusing the existing one), and swap over all the orders
16:09<NGC3982>http://i.imgur.com/rN3CD.png
16:09<NGC3982>there it is
16:09<NGC3982>Rhamphoryncus: i see.
16:09<NGC3982>bah, crikey.
16:10<Rhamphoryncus>These days I tend to go through and make sure all my orders are exact, to avoid such things. Lots more work upfront though.
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16:12<Rubidium>Rhamphoryncus: an implicit order can not cause a vehicle to go to a wrong station
16:12<Rubidium>a vehicle going to a wrong station will cause an implicit order to be inserted, though
16:12<Rhamphoryncus>Implicit orders are the consequence of it
16:13<Rhamphoryncus>Sorry, should have been more clear about that
16:14<Rhamphoryncus>If a train isn't non-stop it reports where it stops using implicit orders, which you can look for. This applies if it's intentional and if it's lost
16:14<andythenorth>:o
16:15<andythenorth>@calc 4.230 - 1.897
16:15<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: 2.333
16:15<andythenorth>Alberth: that's how much time is spent in get_recolouring()
16:17<andythenorth>about 1s of it is spent on transforms
16:17<+michi_cc>andythenorth: http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/1189/ and http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/1190/
16:18<andythenorth>ho
16:18<andythenorth>thanks
16:18<+michi_cc>The basic syntax is "target: source"
16:19<Rhamphoryncus>There's ways to avoid listing all the filenames though
16:19<@Alberth>http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/1192/ <-- andythenorth more explanation :D
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16:21<+michi_cc>Let's look at that backwards: Lines 6 and 7 tell us that gestalt_A/B.pytmpl somehow read or depend on input.png, so if input.ong is modified, those two gestalt files should be treated as modified as well.
16:22<andythenorth>k
16:22<+michi_cc>Line 3 says: A file foobar.pytmpl can be transformed into foobar.png by executing the command "./pixa.sh -o $@ $<". $@ stands for the target (so foobar.png) and $< for the first source (so foobar.pytmpl).
16:24*Alberth always does "echo $@ $<" as a first try, or uses 'make -n' (echo commands but do not exec)
16:25<+michi_cc>And the first lines tells make that in the end we want to have the files gestalt_A.png and gestalt_B.png. Make will by default create the first target it can find, so by insterting this 'dummy' line we can simply execute 'make' instead of 'make gestalt_A.png gestalt_B.png'.
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16:28<+michi_cc>If you allow make to operate in parallel (i.e pass the -j option), it will execute the two pixa.sh calls concurrently.
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16:29<andythenorth>k
16:29<andythenorth>so...
16:29<andythenorth>when generating ~3,000 pngs with auto-generated file names
16:30<andythenorth>it will be interesting to set up the targets :o
16:30<frosch123>the next steps are to autogenerate the nml code, to autostart a game, and to let an ai play with it :)
16:31<Rhamphoryncus>15 steps down the line we achieve singularity
16:32<@Alberth>frosch123: nah, a goal script to measure how fast you reach the goal, then build an optimizer loop :)
16:32<frosch123>Alberth: you mean a goal script evaluating the ai?
16:32<@Alberth>yes
16:32<+michi_cc>andythenorth: The typical solution for that is a program/script that writes a file with "target: source1 source2" lines which is then included in the makefile. This is what e.g. the dep step in the makefile framework does.
16:33<@Alberth>andythenorth: GNU make has all kinds of text manipulation functions to construct names etc
16:34<andythenorth>I might need to unpick some assumptions in my code to use these :|
16:34<andythenorth>I have quite a lot of reliance on python structures to generate names
16:34<@Alberth>or generate a makefile, as michi said :)
16:34<andythenorth>seems a bit chicken and egg :)
16:35<@Alberth>you only need one Makefile ;)
16:35<andythenorth>I could teach pixa to optionally generate only the filenames
16:36<andythenorth>also I think the output files will need to be committed to the repo
16:36<@Alberth>eg gcc/g++ has a -M option to generate dependencies
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16:41*andythenorth reads about -M
16:43<@Alberth>-MM is more useful, as it does not include the system header files
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16:47<@Alberth>http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/1193/ <-- andythenorth would this work as speedup?
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16:48<@Alberth>good night
16:49<andythenorth>bye Alberth
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16:53<morph__>Working version of TCL+Expect for Autopilot+ 4.0?
16:53<morph__>Im getting segmentation faults and whatnot with 8.3, 8.4, 8.5
17:02<morph__>VICTORY! :D
17:02<morph__>Autopilot works. Only took 2 days
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17:09<NGC3982>Rhamphoryncus: are you sure we have to destroy the station?
17:09<NGC3982>Rhamphoryncus: its a damn lot of trains without shared orders :(
17:09<Rhamphoryncus>NGC3982: that gets it to stop delivering to that station
17:10<Rhamphoryncus>That does suck
17:10<NGC3982>http://i.imgur.com/rN3CD.png <- as you see on the "dropoff" and the "pickup" stations.
17:10<NGC3982>oh god.
17:11<NGC3982>though, as i recall: if i destroy a station and quickly replace it, the material parked on it disappear, but the name remains?
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17:12<Pikka>the material will remain too
17:16<morph__>can't find package irc while executing "package require irc"
17:16<morph__>Any ideas? (Autopilot+)
17:16<NGC3982>Pikka: we noticed :(
17:22*andythenorth needs to make sleep, not war
17:23<andythenorth>good and also bye
17:23<Pikka>night andy
17:23<@planetmaker>sleep well, andy
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20:58<Rhamphoryncus>augh, I just tried to scroll using WASD. I blame minecraft.
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22:13<Rhamphoryncus>NARS isn't giving me the 1890 livestock car. I can only get the 1800/1845 cattle car and the 1961 modern livestock car. Fresh game, no other newgrf's, "vehicles never expire" + resetengines doesn't help. Any way I can try to debug it?
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22:48<Rhamphoryncus>And having an express car that can do 160 km/h, but requiring a caboose that can only do 128 km/h, is just cruel.
22:49<Nat_aS>who was making the Unrealistic train set?
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23:07<DanMacK>Hey all
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23:36<Nat_aS>http://dl.dropbox.com/u/24299180/OTTD/Black%20%26%20Co.%2C%2015th%20Feb%201951.png how should I expand this station?
23:36<Nat_aS>I want to add more platforms, but I also want to make a junction so I can have a branch line heading north
23:37<Nat_aS>http://dl.dropbox.com/u/24299180/OTTD/Black%20%26%20Co.%2C%207th%20Aug%201951.png this is normaly how I expand stations, but I have no room to do that here. what do?
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---Logclosed Fri Mar 09 00:00:44 2012