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#openttd IRC Logs for 2012-03-10

---Logopened Sat Mar 10 00:00:44 2012
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02:15<andythenorth>morning
02:16<Nat_aS>it's finished!
02:16<Nat_aS>http://dl.dropbox.com/u/24299180/OTTD/TPX.png
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02:16<Nat_aS>can I get a crit?
02:17<Nat_aS>http://dl.dropbox.com/u/24299180/OTTD/Orient%20Express%20%28kompletter%20Zug%29.jpg this is what it's based on, I don't know anything about it except that it was designed by the nazis and probably never build
02:18<Nat_aS>built
02:19<Nat_aS>making rounded edges in isometry is hard.
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02:39<Rhamphoryncus>If only the Nazis had put their effort towards engineering and not world domination ;)
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02:48<andythenorth>why does the trees tool always build random trees, rather than the selected type?
02:49<@planetmaker>andythenorth: the first tree on a tile should be of the selected type
02:49<@planetmaker>the subsequent ones then follow a certain tile layout pattern
02:49<andythenorth>k
02:50<andythenorth>that is the case
02:50<@planetmaker>there's like two dozen different tree tiles. That's it. Times growth stages
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02:51<Nat_aS>well in OTTD you can live out the alternate history where Germany was treated fairly after WWI and nobody got buthurt, and all the crazy scientists got nice jobs building crazy shit to rebuild postwar europe.
02:51<Nat_aS>also hitler got accepted into art school.
02:51<Nat_aS>and won a charlie chaplin lookalike contest.
02:52<andythenorth>it's interesting
02:52*andythenorth is feeling flamey today
02:53<Nat_aS>flamey?
02:53*planetmaker noticed
02:55<Nat_aS>well night
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03:21*Rubidium wonders whether he'd be be welcomed in andy's club now ;)
03:23<andythenorth>I was just surprised I got there first :P
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03:27<andythenorth>...not to mention lots of new newgrf features, continued development of nml, and lots of newgrf developers trying to complete thing to release with next stable
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03:39<Rubidium>hmm
03:40<Rubidium>if you got custom bridge heads and building stuff on top of a tunnel entrance
03:40-!-Booth is now known as Chris_Booth
03:40<Rubidium>wouldn't then the best next step be: a bridge head that's also a tunnel entrance?
03:41<Rubidium>that'd be really useful
03:41<Rubidium>and then you're actually (almost) a sort of subway implemented
03:42<Rubidium>just build a row of 0 long tunnels with signals in the entrance
03:42<Rubidium>and build 0 length bridges over that with signals on the bridgehead
03:42<Rubidium>or am I going insane now?
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03:44<zxbiohazardzx>hello again :)
03:45<@peter1138>Rubidium, yes
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03:54<andythenorth>Rubidium: you'd need to be able to depth -1
03:54<andythenorth>please don't accidentally do subways
03:54<andythenorth>I like mocking it too much :(
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03:58<@Alberth>moin
03:59<zxbiohazardzx>morning :p
04:00<Rubidium>moggel Alberth
04:01<zxbiohazardzx>moggle, you dutchies?
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04:05<Rubidium>what makes you think that? The company I work for is 50% Dutch and over the last years I've learned quite a few Dutch words ;)
04:06<zxbiohazardzx>:) dutchies rule the world :)
04:06<zxbiohazardzx>and i thought so because moggel is from the KPN commercial, goeiemoggel :P
04:06<zxbiohazardzx>usually its goedenmorgen or morgen :P
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04:13<zxbiohazardzx>Rubidium regarding your reply in the multithreading
04:13<zxbiohazardzx>arent the ships heavy on CPU if you have alot of them (mainly due to pathfinding for ships?
04:15<andythenorth>Alberth: http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/1200/
04:18<Rubidium>zxbiohazardzx: only under certain circumstances. With proper buoy usages it's actually not that big
04:19<Rubidium>even then, most games I see forbid ships, don't use ships or use ships for very short distances
04:19<zxbiohazardzx>fair enough, it just comes down to the old "too much work for too little benefit"
04:19<zxbiohazardzx>can i ask someone to try to apply a diff and see if it compiles fine?
04:19<Rubidium>well, you'd still need to add loads of synchronisation
04:20<Rubidium>e.g. arrival at stations needs to happen in the same order everytime
04:20<zxbiohazardzx>true
04:20<@Alberth>andythenorth: number 1200 !
04:20<Rubidium>and you'd need synchronisation for updating the vehicle location caches
04:20<@Alberth>andythenorth: it looks like a nice definition to me :p
04:21<Rubidium>all have a negative impact on all other vehicles
04:21<andythenorth>Alberth: I might try coding it later
04:21<andythenorth>so my main.py might become a dispatcher script
04:22<zxbiohazardzx>im not that much of a coder Rubidium
04:22<andythenorth>and the gestalts should probably learn how to run standalone
04:22<zxbiohazardzx>i just updated the house patch
04:22<zxbiohazardzx>till then i hardly did coding on ottd
04:22<zxbiohazardzx>i did do a minor software engineering and got around java alot
04:22<zxbiohazardzx>and i do understand the cpp part
04:22<@Alberth>andythenorth: stand-alone? you want to run a gestalt as a child process of main.py?
04:22<zxbiohazardzx>just writing it from scratch is not my thing :P
04:23<andythenorth>Alberth: I'm not sure
04:23<@Alberth>I'd use make for that :p
04:23<andythenorth>I want them to be able to be invoked as separate, parallel processes by make
04:23<andythenorth>if we decode filenames, we could, in theory, run one gestalt process per filename
04:24<@Alberth>you could make main decode what to do, and then import the right gestalt, and let it do the work
04:24<andythenorth>actually, I'm intrigued by how effective it might be
04:24<zxbiohazardzx>and i liked the idea of being able to place houses manually in the scenario editor
04:24<andythenorth>just the imports (no rendering) appears to take 2s at the moment
04:25<@Alberth>2nd time as well?
04:25<andythenorth>scrub that
04:25<andythenorth>logical error by me :P
04:25<zxbiohazardzx>i think planetmaker even suggested to make it work similar to the object placer, where you can select a house and build it. that for me would be great, but i cant code that well, so i decided that id first update the patch that existed to the 24018 revision (yesterdays head)
04:25<@Alberth>ie the first time you have a disk-cache to fill, and possibly have some python compilation going on
04:25<andythenorth>imports are 0.04s
04:26<andythenorth>can imports be dynamic?
04:27<andythenorth>e.g. for item in [list]: import item
04:27<andythenorth>is that even wise?
04:27<@Alberth>what if you use "all" as value for stating you want to generate all png of that value? ie tank-trailer-all-1_8-all.png
04:28<andythenorth>could work
04:28<andythenorth>I'll see how the code smells when I write it
04:28<@Alberth>I wold not do dynamic imports
04:28<andythenorth>BANDIT has to know what 'all' consists of anyway
04:28<andythenorth>to make use of the graphics in spritesets
04:29<@Alberth>and it saves you just a few lines of code
04:34<andythenorth>dynamic imports smell :)
04:34<andythenorth>the gestalts change rarely
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04:39<@Terkhen>good morning
04:48*andythenorth pokes pokka
04:50<@Alberth>moin
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04:53*andythenorth hmms
04:53<andythenorth>(1) how to pass things to gestalts: as params in python, or make them use shell args for communication?
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04:54<andythenorth>(2) gestalts need input file (floorplan), should it be passed, or is that an internal detail? It (mostly) relates to length, but might also relate to subtype issue
05:00<@Alberth>ad 1: the former should be possible, so you can build the latter if needed :)
05:01<andythenorth>params in python is simpler at this stage
05:01<@Alberth>ad 2: what if I use 'all' as subtype? I'd say the gestalt itself should figure it out
05:02<andythenorth>+1
05:02<andythenorth>I forgot about cargo variants in my spec
05:02<andythenorth>e.g. STEL can be coils, bars, pipes etc
05:02<andythenorth>not sure yet if that's a gestalt subtype, or a cargo subtype
05:02<andythenorth>think it's cargo
05:03<@Alberth>+1
05:06<andythenorth>k
05:06*andythenorth will make code in between chores and babies
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05:17<andythenorth>Alberth: basic dispatcher? http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/1201/
05:17<andythenorth>needs to pass filename obv.
05:18<andythenorth>target_files is for test only, that would be passed by make or such
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05:23<@Alberth>x.split('_')[0] --> x.split('_', 1), but looking good, imho
05:23<andythenorth>cleaned up a little: http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/1202/
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05:27<@Alberth>http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/1203/ bottom one is a bit further cleanup
05:29<andythenorth>the split('_',1) seems to be failing ;)
05:31<andythenorth>hmm
05:31<@Alberth>oh, it's still a list, you need [0] after it
05:31<andythenorth>my split() only allows two params, docs say three
05:31<@Alberth>'filename' is the first one
05:32<andythenorth>k
05:32<andythenorth>I'm going to rename this as dispatcher.py
05:32<andythenorth>and have main.py act like a fake make
05:33<@Alberth>x = C(); x.f(y) becomes x = C(); C.f(x, y) <-- where 'x' is 'self'
05:34<andythenorth>makes sense
05:40<Ammler>Alberth: maybe we could integrate this: https://bitbucket.org/face/timestamp/src/fe1b90905b3c/casestop.py
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05:42<@Alberth>that would be useful indeed
05:42<Ammler>andythenorth: there is a make replacement with python afaik
05:42<Ammler>we once checked that as we were investigating build environments for newgrfs
05:43<Ammler>can't remember the name, something with s
05:44<Ammler>Alberth: but it needs integration to your hook, as we need it for push :-)
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05:45<andythenorth>Ammler: I previously found at least one python based make replacement, but the project appeared to be not very supported iirc
05:45<andythenorth>there are probably more...
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05:48<Wolf01>hello
05:50<Ammler>scons was it
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05:50<@Alberth>hi Wolf01
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05:51<@Alberth>Ammler: untested, but something like this? http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/1204/
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05:57<Ammler>Alberth: well, I would like to have it integrated in or existing hook and maybe a switch here: https://hg.openttdcoop.org/misc/file/1e2e71379ba5/mercurial/hooks/repo_checks.ini [filenames]casestop=true
05:58<@Alberth>yeah :)
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05:58<@Alberth>I found the repo with the script, and I have a test setup, but no docs how it worked :p
05:59<Ammler>https://hg.openttdcoop.org/misc/file/1e2e71379ba5/mercurial/hooks/check_commit.py <-- docs are in this header
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06:00<Ammler>pretxnchangegroup.check = python:/home/hg/misc/mercurial/hooks/check_commit.py:check_changegroup
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06:09<xiong>I'm not sure what I'm seeing. Has anyone noticed reluctance of industry to accept cargo generated at the same station? I have a train set to 'Unload and take cargo (near end)' then 'Unload and leave empty (far end). The cargo is unloaded but not accepted.
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06:11<Ammler>xiong: so it is working?
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06:11<xiong>Ammler, Um, not from my viewpoint.
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06:13<andythenorth>Ammler: I did find scons yes
06:13<andythenorth>the one that looks dead is http://www.a-a-p.org/
06:14<xiong>I'm not sure the particular use case is relevant; I seem to have similar trouble in another case. There, I definitely want to consume all production without leaving the station. So I had a truck repeatedly loading and unloading. The cargo was not consumed. I eventually created an extra truck stop and sent the truck back and forth, which worked.
06:14<andythenorth>also Ammler http://wiki.python.org/moin/ConfigurationAndBuildTools
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06:15<xiong>Um, for even more irrelevant detail, the latter case was a FIRS Coal Mine and Lime Kiln at the same station.
06:15<@Alberth>oh, aap, from bram , author of vim :)
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06:16<@Alberth>afaik you do have to actually transport the cargo, even if it is just one tile
06:16<xiong>The current case is a bit more complex. I've got an excess of FS at several stations so I'm running a big train around to all of them; loading, then conditionally transferring or unloading to consume the excess.
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06:18<xiong>That so, Alberth? I've been successful in so many cases with the small loop trucks ("piglets") rationing out ES/FS and input cargoes. Of course, these come originally from somewhere else.
06:20<xiong>I also use loop trucks to keep output cargo "fresh" by constant transfer-and-load. It seems to me that, back when I started this practice, if I did *not* use a transfer order, my cargo might be consumed at the producing station. Do I just remember that poorly or has the game changed?
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06:20<@Alberth>oh, I could very well be wrong
06:21<@Alberth>I don't setup complicated cargo transfer schemes normally
06:21<xiong>Mm, dunno, Alberth. Your statement is rational, realistic, and consistent with current observations.
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06:21<xiong>You might still be wrong but I'll adopt your view as a working hypothesis.
06:22<@Alberth>the only corner case I can think of, is if you first transfer cargo to some station, thn load it, and unload it again there. I have no idea at all what happens then
06:23<andythenorth>oh buildit is by chris mcdonough http://agendaless.com/Members/chrism/software/buildit/README.txt
06:23<xiong>It's not a great burden to add these extra truck stops and alter orders to go back and forth. It's actually a simpler order list -- since to order a vehicle to the same station only, requires a total of 4 orders to avoid the "duplicate order" warning.
06:23<andythenorth>Ammler: scons looks to be the most recently updated
06:24<@Alberth>andythenorth: we have too many of these build systems :p
06:24<andythenorth>'Just Use Make'
06:24<andythenorth>?
06:25<andythenorth>how many do we have?
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06:25<xiong>That's precisely my dominant use case, Alberth. I transfer cargo in bulk -- say, ES -- then pick it up and drop it with a truck, slowly. I actually use a 1 Horse Carriage, which takes nearly a month to station stop and depot. .
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06:26<xiong>I'm going to go along with the "must transport some distance" statement, which forbids consumption at exactly the producing station. It's rational. Thanks Alberth++
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06:30<@Alberth>I never got to the point of FS and ES distribution :)
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06:41<__mj>hi, I'm debugging something and I've found a train with subtype 1001100(b) but the documentation reads that there are only 6 bits denoting a vehicle subtype, is this information still accurate ?
06:42<andythenorth>hmm
06:42*andythenorth might get distracted by python multiprocessing module
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06:42<__mj>I didn't mean 6 bits in the docu, I meant the enum has only 6 values :) sry
06:43<__mj>still looks strange to have a subtype of 72(d), I need to know if this is a problem in my code that created this train
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06:47<Rubidium>are you sure the vehicle is a train?
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06:48<Rubidium>though I don't know any reason why the two high bits would be set
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06:51<__mj>Its a slightly modified version of Train, I use it as intermediate object
06:52<__mj>But I didn't change anything about its type
06:54<Rubidium>are you doing multiple inheritance?
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06:57<__mj>no
06:58<__mj>this issue doesn't give any problems, but I should keep a note that it might create problems later on
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07:26<andythenorth>hmm
07:26<andythenorth>python multiprocessing seems straightforward :o
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07:27<__mj>I've been doing a bit of python lately, the only bad thing I can rely say about it, is that it has those ugly indentation semantics ;)
07:30<@Alberth>like you don't indent your code otherwise :)
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07:33<_maddy>how do I check why my AI is not loaded when I start the game? I made a simple barebones AI according to wiki examples with info.nut and main.nut
07:35<__mj>Alberth: I use chaotic random indentation normally :)
07:35<__mj>looks funny !
07:35<@Yexo>_maddy: open the console, type "debug_level ai=5"<enter> and after that "rescan_ais"<enter>
07:36<valhallasw>__mj: for you, not for anyone else maintaining your code
07:36<valhallasw>the python syntax was not created to be easy to write, but easy to read
07:37<_maddy>Yexo: rescan_ais command not found
07:37<@Yexo>try "rescan_ai" or "rescan_scripts"
07:38<_maddy>rescan_ai works, no error messages, I guess for some reason it is not finding it
07:38<@Yexo>where did you put info.nut/main.nut?
07:38<@Alberth>the 4 letter name is crucial
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07:38<_maddy>openttd_dir/ai/QAI
07:39<Artanicus>howdy. Just installed the lucid 1.1.5 64bit deb and the package seems to be missing the actual binary. Am I doing something wrong or is it just missing? :D
07:39<@Yexo>ai debug level has been renamed to "script"
07:40<@Yexo>so "debug_level script=5" first, than try "rescan_ai" again
07:40<_maddy>Yexo: still no error message, and no ai loaded
07:40<andythenorth> hmm
07:41<_maddy>the version is r24001
07:41<andythenorth>Alberth: with python multiprocessing, the improvement is ~ linear so far :)
07:41<andythenorth>I know make can handle that part, but I don't have a makefile yet :P
07:41<__mj>valhallasw: did you believe me that I indent my code randomly ? how would anyone get anything done that way ?
07:42<valhallasw>__mj: I've seen enough people *actually* do that
07:42<valhallasw>unfortunately :|
07:42<__mj>uh...
07:42<@Yexo>_maddy: can you post your info.nut/main.nut at paste.openttdcoop.org?
07:42<__mj>there is probably a crazy person for everything in the world ;)
07:42<@Alberth>andythenorth: nice! :)
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07:42<Artanicus>Here's the package contents listing, at least the main binary is missing; http://pastebin.com/Z4hKUene
07:43<valhallasw>__mj: especially in MATLAB/IDL code... code that was not written by programmers but by random scientists
07:43<@Yexo>Artanicus: /usr/games/openttd <- that's the main binary I think
07:43<Artanicus>Yexo, gah, just realized myself. damn I feel stupid
07:44<Hirundo>Hmm... for my test case (ogfxairports), disabling tile compression actually adversely impacts performance
07:44<Artanicus>somehow my eyes thought it was a directory. nvm and thanks for setting me straight :-)
07:44<_maddy>Yexo: http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/1205/
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07:44<__mj>valhallasw: and they random-indented their code on purpose ?
07:45<Ammler>openttd installs the bianary in a very silly location per default
07:45<@Yexo>Hirundo: lz77 is the slow part, not tile compression
07:45<Hirundo>Indeed
07:45<valhallasw>__mj: it's like the javascript 'written' by web site designers: copy paste stuff from everywhere until it sort of works
07:45<@Yexo>and disabling tile compression means more data for lz77
07:45<Hirundo>Indeed :-)
07:47<morph`>Any awesome NoGo scripts for Multiplayer yet?
07:50<_maddy>Yexo: any ideas?
07:51<@Yexo>_maddy: GetShortName is required to return a string of length 4
07:51<@Yexo>the debug info should've told you that
07:52<_maddy>yes now the AI loaded, the debug info didn't display any error message though
07:53<andythenorth>hmm
07:53<andythenorth>for a mixed bag of gestalts, MP pixa is ~5s, non MP is ~11s
07:53<andythenorth>the MP version blocks ~100% of my CPU, as intended
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07:53<andythenorth>the non MP version uses ~25%
07:53<__mj>valhallasw: that's the reason why sometimes those people are called 'designers' rather than 'programmers' :)
07:54<andythenorth>must be some overhead somewhere
07:54<__mj>what is a gestalt ? some new feature ?
07:55<andythenorth>Alberth: do you think it's essential to use make for generation?
07:55<zxbiohazardzx>bck
07:58<_maddy>Yexo: thanks for the help
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07:58<@Alberth>andythenorth: make is used for constructing build sequences, and skipping stuff that does not need a rebuild. If you don't need that, you don't need make imho
07:59<andythenorth>maybe I try to rub along without it
07:59<andythenorth>makefile syntax is a step too far right now
07:59<andythenorth>ducktape coding :P
08:00<Eddi|zuHause>hm... after the "bud spencer" tunnel, and the "i'm lacking a screw" road, now an internet vote (in slovakia this time) resulted in the "chuck norris" bridge
08:01<zxbiohazardzx>thats nonsense, chuck norris doesnt need a bridge
08:01<@Alberth>__mj: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=68&t=58543
08:03<zxbiohazardzx>being the total naab that i am
08:03<zxbiohazardzx>how do i generate a sln for vc? as ofc the MS VC 2008 guide does not have info on that shit
08:04<__mj>thanks, alberth
08:04<Eddi|zuHause>zxbiohazardzx: you execute projects/generate
08:04<zxbiohazardzx>im wintendo on that part
08:05<zxbiohazardzx>so i usually just load a pregenerated SLN
08:05<Eddi|zuHause>zxbiohazardzx: you need only generate the sln if you added files
08:05<zxbiohazardzx>so i recon id have to create a project, import everything and then generate it?
08:05<zxbiohazardzx>i modified files yes
08:05<Eddi|zuHause>and my grammar very german today is
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08:06<zxbiohazardzx>hence i want to check if the source compiles without errors, and what results i have ingame
08:06<Eddi|zuHause>zxbiohazardzx: "modifying" files is fine, "adding new files" needs generating the sln
08:07<zxbiohazardzx>lets put it this way Eddi
08:07<zxbiohazardzx>i editted the files in notepad++
08:07<zxbiohazardzx>and now i have to ofc compile & run in order to check how it works out
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08:09<zxbiohazardzx>i think i got it, but now its errorspree so i did something wrong for sure
08:10<zxbiohazardzx>it ofc lacks the dependancies, as linking them changed in VS10 compared to older one
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08:26<zxbiohazardzx>blegh i keep hitting no sutch file or directory
08:26<zxbiohazardzx>somewhere includes arent going correct
08:31<zxbiohazardzx>D:\Sourcecodes\OpenTTD_SVN\trunk\projects\Debug\ottd_test.exe : fatal error LNK1120: 1 unresolved externals
08:31<zxbiohazardzx>stupid externals, i added them to the MSVC folder in the libs specified for project
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08:47<TinoDidriksen>"unresolved external" cannot be solved with #include
08:47<TinoDidriksen>There's some library or file that you're not linking correctly.
08:48<zxbiohazardzx>hmmz
08:48<zxbiohazardzx>squirrel.h was also missing
08:48<zxbiohazardzx>and i didnt touch that
08:48<zxbiohazardzx>ill check though
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08:51<zxbiohazardzx>im not that certain on coding anyway, i just updated the manual house placing patch, and then i failed on setting up the envrionmetnt i recon
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09:13<morph`>Is there currently any way of adding company value goals to OpenTTD dedicated server?
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09:36<@Yexo>yes, via NoGo scripts
09:38<_maddy>what type is the return value from AICargoList or AIIndustryList functions?
09:40<@Yexo>AICargoList is not a function, it's a class
09:40<@Yexo>so the type is "AICargoList"
09:40<@Yexo>AICargoList is a subclass of AIList
09:41<@Yexo>http://noai.openttd.org/docs/trunk/ <- it's all in the documentation
09:41<_maddy>I have the documentation open, but that class has no functions, so I am assuming I must iterate over it using a loop
09:42<@Yexo>as you can see at the top it's a subclass of AIList, which has functions
09:42<andythenorth>Alberth: most of the code in generate() for a gestalt relates to creating all the variations
09:42<@Yexo>foreach (item, value in list) { ... } works just fine however
09:42<andythenorth>if, instead, that renders just one spritesheet based on parameters, it might be made common
09:43<andythenorth>then, optionally, passing 'all' as a filename arg, might cause the gestalt to simply construct a list of expanded filenames, then call generate() on them
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09:48*andythenorth biab
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10:06<_maddy>how do I get the length of an array in squirrel?
10:09<@Yexo>array.len()?
10:10<@Yexo>see http://squirrel-lang.org/doc/squirrel2.html#d0e2506
10:11<_maddy>that's useful
10:13<_maddy>is there a shortcut to get the companyId of the AI's current company?
10:15<_maddy>ah found it I think
10:17<@Yexo>aicompany.resolvecompanyid(aicompany.company_current) or something like that
10:25<_maddy>yeah
10:29<morph`>Weird, UKRS 3.04 doesn't seem to work on my server
10:29<morph`>Works fine when I create single-player game, doesn't appear in list of loaded grfs when I make a multiplayer dedicated server
10:30<morph`>Nevermind
10:38<andythenorth>it would be nice, for 1.3, to be able to plant farm fields (as industry-owned objects)
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10:38<andythenorth>obviously now is not the time for adding newgrf features
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10:45<@planetmaker>andythenorth: now those things could already be added (again). But... they need writing
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10:45<andythenorth>we're all busy :)
10:45<@planetmaker>^^
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11:03<andythenorth>Alberth: I need a new separator for filename parts, underscores aren't cutting it :P
11:03<andythenorth>could use dash for parts, underscore within parts :P
11:04<andythenorth>%
11:04<andythenorth>&
11:04<andythenorth>?
11:04<Rubidium>:
11:05<andythenorth>doesn't that have some exciting OS specific issues? :)
11:05<Rubidium>as if the others don't on Windows
11:06<@planetmaker>you could also add a *
11:06<andythenorth>$
11:06<@planetmaker>or a "
11:06<@planetmaker>or '
11:06<@planetmaker>or maybe spaces and \
11:07<Rubidium>? < > \ : * | ”
11:07<andythenorth>or /
11:07<@planetmaker>breaking FS 101 :-P
11:07<Rubidium>bad for NTFS
11:07<Rubidium>^ also bad for FAT
11:07<andythenorth>- and _ then :P
11:07<andythenorth>hmm
11:07<Rubidium>and by that I mean the caret is also bad for FAT
11:08<andythenorth>I don't like it when I run code that I know is broken, but it doesn't fail :P
11:08<@Alberth>- and _ are most sane imho
11:08<Rubidium>andythenorth: but where/what do you need to split on?
11:08<andythenorth>example: 'tipping_trailer_4px-fifth_wheel-cc1-7_8-GRAI.png'
11:08<andythenorth>gestalt, colourset, length, cargo
11:09<@planetmaker>use camel case naming ;-)
11:09<@planetmaker>then you need less separators
11:09<Pikka>and fewer
11:09<andythenorth>hmm
11:09<@planetmaker>I always have a glass and also use partial separators
11:09<andythenorth>I think python multiprocessing doesn't raise errors in child scripts by default
11:10<@Alberth>use " " :)
11:10<Rubidium>andythenorth: but that's 4 things that must always be there, so a single seperator should suffice
11:10<Rubidium>and if you don't have a field just leave it 'empty'
11:10<andythenorth>I need to then further split tipping_trailer_4px etc
11:10<andythenorth>later
11:11<andythenorth>Alberth: I had horrible thought that using 'if 'foo' in filename' fails when an unwanted substring match is found
11:11<andythenorth>e.g foo produces food gestalt instead of foo
11:13<@Alberth>that's why I used string.startswith()
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11:18<andythenorth>ho
11:19<andythenorth>that's interesting
11:20<andythenorth>with MP, this is ~50% faster now
11:26<andythenorth>Alberth: done anything with python multiprocessing ever?
11:26<andythenorth>it would be nice to handle process completion better
11:27<andythenorth>and maybe also optionally limit number of processes
11:27<andythenorth>http://docs.python.org/library/multiprocessing.html
11:27<andythenorth>current code is checked into bandit repo
11:29<@Alberth>never
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11:34<andythenorth>it's fun :)
11:36<@Alberth>it beats messing with hg repo code, I am VERY sure
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11:41<andythenorth>@calc 100 * 1.3
11:41<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: 130
11:41<andythenorth>130 / 60
11:41<andythenorth>@calc 130 / 60
11:41<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: 2.16666666667
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11:50<Pikka>you really needed the bot to tell you what 100 * 1.3 is, andy? :P
11:52<valhallasw>andythenorth: I've played around with multiprocessing a bit
11:53<valhallasw>most important thing to remember is NOT TO FORGET THE if __name__=="__main__" where you set up the process pool
11:53<valhallasw>or you end up forkbombing yourself
11:53<valhallasw>been there, done that
11:53<andythenorth>Pikka: I like to check the bot is working
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11:53<Rubidium>andythenorth: it's not
11:53<andythenorth>valhallasw: I have ignored that bit of the docs; even the bit where it says "You MUST do this"
11:53<Rubidium>@calc 076 * 1.3
11:53<@DorpsGek>Rubidium: 80.6
11:53<Rubidium>not the expected 0120.6
11:54<valhallasw>andythenorth: I think the docs just say 'this won't work in an interactive interpreter', not 'run this and you have to restart your computer unless you have ulimit configured right'
11:55<valhallasw>I'm always surprised by how quick and effective forkbombs are
11:55<CIA-1>OpenTTD: frosch * r24020 /trunk/src/lang/english.txt: -Fix [FS#4898]: Unify the spacing in 'AI/Game Script' and never just say 'Game' when 'Game Script' is meant.
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13:09<andythenorth>Alberth: handling the 'all' case in filenames would lose the MP speedup, or at least require the gestalt to also spawn processes
13:10<andythenorth>I'm not against it, just not sure if it's worth it right now
13:12<@Alberth>oh, you don't expand the 'all' cases in the dispatcher?
13:25<andythenorth>I could
13:25<andythenorth>I'd need to figure out a canonical source of data for what 'all' is
13:26<andythenorth>currently that's the gestalt, which is logical but not desirable
13:28<@Alberth>add a way to query it from the gestalt?
13:29<@Alberth>vars = gestalt.get_variables(); values = gestalt.get_values(vars[2]) with the 3rd var being 'all'
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13:32<andythenorth>+1
13:33<andythenorth>so that's like saying 'module provides [stuff]'
13:33<_maddy>how do I determine the size (tiles) of an industry in AI code?
13:35<@planetmaker>you query each tile for its tile class, I guess
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13:35<@planetmaker>but why do you need to know that?
13:36<_maddy>I need to determine where I can build a station, next to an industry.. I thought it logical AIIndustry class would have something like GetSize, along with GetLocation
13:39<@Alberth>andythenorth: you can also use a class instead, but that may be more complicated to use and/or explain
13:39<@Alberth>as gestalts are fairly big
13:43<urpiotr>hi, I'm trying to compile with VS2005 but I get this:
13:43<urpiotr>5>d:\src\openttd\src\network\core\address.cpp(134) : error C2065: 'AI_ADDRCONFIG' : undeclared identifier
13:43<urpiotr>5>d:\src\openttd\src\network\core\address.cpp(358) : error C2065: 'IPV6_V6ONLY' : undeclared identifier
13:43<urpiotr>Can anyone give me a hint, what could be wrong?
13:43<TinoDidriksen>VS2005? Ancient
13:44<TinoDidriksen>VC++ 2010 Express is free...
13:44<urpiotr>should these be defined in some system, library or SDK headers?
13:45<@Alberth>looks like ipv6 support
13:45<@Alberth>which may have been non-existing in vs2005
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: translators * r24021 /trunk/src/lang/ (english_US.txt finnish.txt french.txt german.txt):
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: english_US - 13 changes by Rubidium
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: finnish - 9 changes by jpx_
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: french - 9 changes by OliTTD, glx
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: german - 1 changes by planetmaker
13:46<+glx>urpiotr: update platform sdk
13:48<Pikka>hey look
13:49<Pikka>banks on opposite sides of a 256* map producing around 50 bags of valuables a month
13:49<Pikka>= legitimate use for the Beech 1900 :D
13:49-!-lofejndif [~lsqavnbok@214.Red-83-43-124.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
13:50<Nat_aS>beech?
13:51<Pikka>http://users.tt-forums.net/pikka/wiki/index.php?title=Beech_1900
13:51<Pikka>oh look, I never put a sprite image on that page either :)
13:51<Nat_aS>oh I though you said there was a plane that came out in 1900
13:51<Nat_aS>:V
13:55<guru3>In six days I'll have a 2048 day reporting period for #openttd.
13:56<guru3>Just as a completely random fun fact.
13:57<andythenorth>Alberth: gestalts are getting smaller... (lots of commented out code at end to be removed) http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/1210/
13:57<andythenorth>most of the code was to handle composing all the variations ;)
13:58<andythenorth>now they just dumbly render what they're given
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14:04<@Alberth>your use of indenting to layout data like code still confuses me completely :)
14:04<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r24022 /trunk/src/ (strings.cpp table/control_codes.h table/strgen_tables.h): -Add: CARGO_LIST control code for strings
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14:15<urpiotr>glx: thanks for the hint :) Now it compiles successfully.
14:18<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r24023 /trunk/src/ (lang/english.txt station_gui.cpp vehicle_gui.cpp): -Fix [FS#5090]: pass cases down into the list of cargos
14:19<andythenorth>Alberth: you mentioned that the other day, but we didn't discuss further
14:20<andythenorth>my indenting violates PEP-8 I think :o
14:20<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r24024 /trunk/src/lang/ (55 files in 2 dirs): -Update: translation w.r.t. the changes in r24023
14:20<andythenorth>can you show me a better way? I don't mind changing it
14:22<andythenorth>Pikka: this bidwell thing should run on batteries :P
14:22-!-MNIM [~mBuntu@ip5452ffad.adsl-surfen.hetnet.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
14:22<andythenorth>or even stored flywheel power :D
14:22<andythenorth>find a railtype for *that*
14:22<Pikka>andy; it was going to
14:22<andythenorth>what stopped you?
14:22<Pikka>but there's no "nice" way of doing it that
14:23<andythenorth>wot, you're saying that's no local vars on a vehicle :O
14:23<Pikka>that is, there's no nice way of limiting the time it can spend on normal track
14:23*andythenorth thinks the gameplay result might just be annoying anyway
14:24<Pikka>exactly
14:24<Pikka>so, you know, people just have to electrify the routes they want to use it on :P
14:25<Pikka>also, even though sticking 4 of them together is still considerably cheaper to run than a class 66, you won't be replacing all your diesel freights because they're 15mph slower
14:26<andythenorth>you should do one of those green goat things
14:26<andythenorth>variable hp with gensets
14:27<andythenorth>make it adjust to the number of trailing vehicles :P
14:27<Pikka>ew
14:27<Pikka>keep it simple :P
14:28<Rubidium>yeah ;)
14:29<Rubidium>1 engine refittable to everything. Done!
14:31<andythenorth>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Railpower_Technologies#Green_Goat_Hybrid_switchers
14:31<Pikka>I know, andy :P
14:32<andythenorth>ok :)
14:35<Pikka>all good all good... just got to do that darn a-train...
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14:52<andythenorth>ho 1.5s to generate 42 pngs
14:52<andythenorth>so...who has the fastest box? :P
14:55<Rubidium>not me
15:01<andythenorth>ho
15:01<andythenorth>seems I upset a Level Crossing
15:01<andythenorth>or got ignored
15:01<andythenorth>hey ho
15:03<andythenorth>hmm
15:03<andythenorth>is the state of...you know...reality calculated single-threaded, or multi-threaded?
15:07<frosch123>the what?
15:09<andythenorth>reality
15:09<andythenorth>we might need to agree on meta-physics first :P
15:10<andythenorth>stuff like the double slit experiment shows that there is a game-state being calculated for reality
15:10-!-Chris_Booth [~chatzilla@host86-158-149-85.range86-158.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
15:10<andythenorth>so is it MP-aware? :P
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15:12<frosch123>i think most interesting about rl is whether there is respawning
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15:31<Eddi|zuHause>depends on which religion you ask
15:36<andythenorth>also, to what extent could evaluating varaction 2 chains be parallel?
15:36<@planetmaker>none
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15:37<andythenorth>for obvious reason I have overlooked, which is...?
15:37<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: the whole underlying design is unfit for parallelization...
15:37<@planetmaker>you can query other tiles, towns...
15:38<@planetmaker>which can be modified again by other varaction2
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15:39<andythenorth>I wondered about the tile case
15:39<andythenorth>what about vehicles?
15:39<andythenorth>there's always some global thing in newgrf :P
15:39<andythenorth>fwiw, I'm not complaining about lack of MP use
15:39<andythenorth>just interested
15:42<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: alone the fact that you can query the "related object" will screw your plans...
15:43<andythenorth>is it theoretically impossible to parallelise vehicle varaction 2 chains?
15:43<andythenorth>or just silly
15:43<andythenorth>?
15:44<Eddi|zuHause>i don't think it can be done without sacrificing some (corner-case?) functionality
15:45<andythenorth>for vehicles, it's probably not critical functionality
15:45<andythenorth>a consist seems to be a pretty self-contained entity to me
15:46<Eddi|zuHause>but it's exactly _inside_ the consists that you will cause trouble
15:47<@planetmaker>except for rails or roads
15:47<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: I'm assuming you can't parellelise the vehicles in the consist
15:47<andythenorth>you have to choose somewhere to start evaluating, presumably the start :P
15:48*andythenorth is guessing, but could read the code
15:48*andythenorth is actually shirking re-writing cargo sprite generation
15:53<@planetmaker>andythenorth, vehicle varaction2 also needs to be sequential or you have to toss all random action2
15:53<andythenorth>ok
15:54*andythenorth stops shirking cargo sprite generation rewriting thereof
15:54<@planetmaker>or at least the re-randomisation of the vehicle bits needs to be sequential
15:54*andythenorth suggests an optimisation equivalent to MP: reduce vehicle limit, decrease map size :)
15:55<@planetmaker>at least vehicle behaviour should not depend on the non-sequential random actions :-). But in principle it can currently
15:55<@planetmaker>Like I could return vehicle_speed = 38 * random(10)
15:55<@planetmaker>vehicle_max_speed
15:55<Eddi|zuHause>a propos... anyone tested my randomized livery change delay?
15:56<andythenorth>I tested your crossings patch
15:56<andythenorth>:P
15:56<andythenorth>what happened to that?
15:56<andythenorth>also your fence patch
15:57<Eddi|zuHause>nothing happened... still waiting on somebody to code the drawing part
15:57<Nat_aS>http://dl.dropbox.com/u/24299180/OTTD/TPX2cc.png Now with 2cc!
15:57<Nat_aS>can anybody give me advice on the windows?
15:57<Nat_aS>and the diagonals?
15:57<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: the drawing part of crossings?
15:57*andythenorth coded crossings patches once
15:57<andythenorth>got annoyed
15:57<Nat_aS>Diagonals are what the player sees most of the time, but they kinda look ugly
15:58<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: drawing diagonal tracks on road crossings
15:58<Nat_aS>I can't really get rounded edges in diagonals looking good, there is no easy rule like the 1:2 for straight lines
15:58<andythenorth>first I'd have to draw you that stupid composited road-rail piece so that you could force it to appear under tram tracks
15:59<Eddi|zuHause>Nat_aS: my solution to diagonals looking ugly is making them longer :p
15:59<Nat_aS>isn't that the max lenght for diagonals though?
15:59<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: what do you mean?
15:59<Eddi|zuHause>Nat_aS: yeah... i cheat :p
16:00<andythenorth>Nat_aS: your diagonals don't look so bad, you use an odd window colour though
16:00<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: tram tracks insist on putting a road piece under rail crossings
16:00<andythenorth>I spent a weekend trying to stop that, but it's pretty tricky
16:00<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: yes. draw road, draw rail, draw tram
16:00<Nat_aS>what would be a better color
16:00<@Alberth>black
16:00<Nat_aS>I was not really sure what to use.
16:00<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: but that has nothing to do with diagonal crossings :)
16:00<Nat_aS>black?
16:01<andythenorth>Nat_aS the dark purple used everywhere else ;)
16:01<@Alberth>good night all
16:01<Nat_aS>which is it on the pallet?
16:01<andythenorth>Alberth: good night
16:01<andythenorth>Nat_aS: start the game, enable newgrf debug tools, and look at some of the default vehicles
16:01<Eddi|zuHause>Nat_aS: how i cheat the vehicle length: https://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/1990/Hawthorn___Co.__6._Okt_1922.png
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16:01<Nat_aS>how do i do that
16:02<Eddi|zuHause>Nat_aS: it's actually 3 vehicles that just look like one
16:02<andythenorth>Nat_aS: http://wiki.openttd.org/NewGRF_Debugging
16:02<Nat_aS>>Trains bending with the track
16:02<Nat_aS>WHAT SORCERY IS THIS?
16:03<andythenorth>Nat_aS: the windows are usually 128-135 if using the DOS palette: http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/2458/palette_key.png
16:03<andythenorth>*not* 170-177 which some people have used :o
16:04<Eddi|zuHause>Nat_aS: a normal vehicle is 8lu (length-units). to create the illusion of a 10lu vehicle i make three vehicles of length 3-4-3, and make the two 3's invisible, only draw the 4
16:04<Eddi|zuHause>the bending is some additional magic to avoid the vehicle sticking out of the rails too far
16:05<Nat_aS>it's nice to see this game has consistant style
16:05<Nat_aS>;) unlike some games
16:07<Eddi|zuHause>Nat_aS: most of the magic is in these files: https://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/cets/repository/entry/src/templates/gfx_front_vehicle_10.pnml (there's one for every vehicle length betewen 3lu and 16lu (=1 full tile))
16:08<Eddi|zuHause>Nat_aS: and the accompanying vehicle template: https://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/cets/repository/entry/src/gfx/template_10_8bpp_normal.png
16:08<Nat_aS>so whole tile engines are possible?
16:08<Nat_aS>:0
16:11<Eddi|zuHause>Nat_aS: for the different length just exchange the 10 for the desired length, e.g. 16: https://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/cets/repository/entry/src/gfx/template_16_8bpp_normal.png
16:11<Nat_aS>so these are hand drawn? or traced 3d renders?
16:12<Eddi|zuHause>this is hand drawn
16:12<Nat_aS>anyways, you guys are blowing my mind with newgrif fu
16:12<Nat_aS>I take back what I said about simutrans having better coding
16:12<Eddi|zuHause>i know, i'm kind of an extreme case :p
16:12<Nat_aS>Newgrifs blow them out of the water
16:12<Eddi|zuHause>and i didn't even talk about autogeneration yet :p
16:12<Nat_aS>you are so limited by the engine in simutrans when it comes to making fancy new trains.
16:13<Nat_aS>like they don't even support randomized cargo sprites for doublestack cars
16:13<Eddi|zuHause>most of the magic needed for this to work is only in trunk for 2 months
16:13<Eddi|zuHause>or 3
16:13<Nat_aS>or half loaded cars
16:13<Nat_aS>both of which I wish I had when I made doublestack cars for them
16:13<Nat_aS>I think they might still be in there latest build
16:13<Nat_aS>so ugly
16:14<Nat_aS>there is no half loaded sprite, and the containers are CC only
16:14<Nat_aS>no multicolor shiping containers :c
16:15<Eddi|zuHause>i'm massively bulding upon other people's foundations here
16:15<andythenorth>gah...I hadn't considered the CETS case when setting up cargo sprite generation :|
16:15<Nat_aS>what?
16:15<Eddi|zuHause>many of the ideas were there previously, but i pieced them together
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16:16<Nat_aS>man, I'm not sure I could sprite cars with that many rotations
16:16<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: I'm planning to release a full set of cargo load sprites, GPL, on nml templates, length 2/8 to 8/8
16:16<andythenorth>but only for 8 angles :P
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16:17<Nat_aS>yeah, a lot of those angles are hard to draw
16:17<Nat_aS>without 3d tracing
16:17<Nat_aS>which I dispise
16:17<Nat_aS>because of simutrans
16:17<Nat_aS>it's the reason the game is so ugly
16:17<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause however the sprite generator doesn't know too much about angles, it just uses floorplans
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16:17<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: as long as you can use the template as a floor plan...
16:17<andythenorth>yup
16:18<andythenorth>but something like a tarpaulin load - that would need drawing for extra angles
16:18<andythenorth>same for machinery, vehicles, etc
16:18<andythenorth>steel coils - I've got covered :P
16:18<andythenorth>make all loads round, you're fine :P
16:18<Eddi|zuHause>well, we can think about that when we get there...
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16:19<Nat_aS>will there be a geniric shiping container sprite that can be copy pasted for consistancy?
16:19<Eddi|zuHause>i'm more interested in getting some generic shapes that not all vehicles are green blobs, but something that vaguely resembles an engine/wagon
16:19<Nat_aS>and be the same on boats, stations, trucks, and trains?
16:19<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: the generator is close to usable....I'll be looking for users :)
16:20<Nat_aS>maybe the game could even track which sprite of container is droped off where so it would look like they are actualy being moved around
16:20<Eddi|zuHause>Nat_aS: that's a little too much... unless you tie the container colour to a cargo
16:21<andythenorth>Nat_aS: there'll be a full set of shipping container sprites, 20' and 40'
16:21<Eddi|zuHause>Nat_aS: or you implement containers as a vehicle, and loading/unloading containers as a special case of shunting
16:21<andythenorth>:)
16:22<Nat_aS>well the idea would be to have stations remember which color container they receive, and "store" them in there own sprite, then when they give cargo to a veichile, they will set the loaded veichile to have that sprite
16:22<Nat_aS>it would be an illusion
16:22<Nat_aS>just remember the color it gave you, keep that color, then give that color to the next train
16:22<Nat_aS>probably a lot of work for such a subtle effect
16:23<Nat_aS>man I love shiping containers, will this newgrif have new stations?
16:23<Nat_aS>like a container port station?
16:23<andythenorth>Nat_aS: you've found ISR, right?
16:23<Nat_aS>I like the industrial stations renewal set, but it could be better.
16:23<Nat_aS>yes
16:23<Nat_aS>it's the best station newgrif
16:23<Eddi|zuHause>it's a little dated meanwhile, could use an update
16:23<Nat_aS>but it lacks stations for some industries,
16:23<Nat_aS>yeah it's old
16:24<andythenorth>there's also DWE stations
16:24<Nat_aS>and also there is no equivlent for PAX stations
16:24<Nat_aS>:c
16:24<Nat_aS>DWE?
16:24<Eddi|zuHause>not as bad as MBs passenger stations, though
16:24<andythenorth>here you go Nat_aS http://www.eurobricks.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=67245
16:24<Nat_aS>also the "Classification Yard" set in it seems halfassed
16:25<Nat_aS>actualy
16:25<Nat_aS>what is really needed
16:25<Nat_aS>is a seaports newgrif
16:25<Nat_aS>that allows placing seaports like stations
16:25<Nat_aS>lenght and width
16:25<Nat_aS>built over water, as long as one side is touching land
16:25<Nat_aS>and customizible the way industrial stations are
16:26<Nat_aS>and that link is really cool
16:28<Eddi|zuHause>just had to laugh at the lego-smilies... don't think i've seen those before :p
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16:53<xiong>Yes, I play with DWE as well. I have quite a few station sets.
16:55<xiong>Just because it's a train station tile doesn't mean you can't build other stations with it -- seaports, bus and truck stops. Just join the tile onto the basic dock, stop, or even airport.
16:55<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause, what would you add / change with ISR?
16:56<@planetmaker>I'd change the forced track type for some
16:56<frosch123>change? the grfid :p
16:56<@planetmaker>haha :-)
16:56<Eddi|zuHause>don't remember, haven't played in a while so i don't know what annoyed me the last time
16:57<Eddi|zuHause>the most important was that the stockpiles should depend on some average throughput, not the currently waiting cargo (needs some statistics exposed as variables)
16:58<@planetmaker>ah, yes
16:58<Eddi|zuHause>also: not all parts of the "full (drag&drop) stations" are available as individual pieces
16:58<@planetmaker>that I consider not that tragic. Actually I'd rather add some more drag&drop stations
16:59<Eddi|zuHause>i'm not usually using the full stations. mostly i'm making empty stations and put some sprinkles in
16:59<frosch123>night
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17:00<Eddi|zuHause>and the shunting yard needs a matching eyecandy railtype with the same ground tile
17:00<Eddi|zuHause>and more shunting tiles
17:01<Eddi|zuHause>switches in all kinds of directions
17:01<Eddi|zuHause>and eye-candy wagons on the shunting rails
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17:03<@planetmaker>yeah, the latter makes sense. Though that IMHO is difficult. Not sure I'd do that, if I were the author of a station set
17:03<@planetmaker>it's only fit my personal choice of NewGRFs which is... not very versatile necessarily
17:03<Eddi|zuHause>indeed, that's a problem
17:04<@planetmaker>thus I think the better solution is invisible engines to place wagons on real tracks
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17:04<Eddi|zuHause>could use some evil AI callbacks like "give me a wagon that carries cargo <Y>, and put that as effect vehicle on location <X>"
17:04<@planetmaker>(or maybe not invisible, but looking like a wagon)
17:05<Nat_aS>what is DWE?
17:05<@planetmaker>lol, Eddi|zuHause :-)
17:05<@planetmaker>Nat_aS, a NewGRF
17:05<@planetmaker>or rather a few NewGRFs, iirc
17:06<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: well. that's the most extreme way i can immediately think of that will be independent of the vehicle and industry set used
17:07<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: the "wagons" could then effectively work like the stockpiles, i.e. get more or less depending on throughput
17:08<@planetmaker>:-) It's an interesting concept. Would maybe need a new CB for stations... but might be worth it when someone [TM] cares to implement both
17:10<Eddi|zuHause>the whole shunting yard concept should maybe be split off ISR
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17:14<@planetmaker>possibly, yes
17:27<Nat_aS>wait, OTTD works on android?
17:27<Nat_aS>:o
17:27<Nat_aS>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9vILfIVkQ7I&feature=related
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17:30<Eddi|zuHause>there may be unofficial ports
17:30-!-Pulec [~pulec@static-cl093181068250.unet.cz] has quit []
17:30<Eddi|zuHause>the UI usually needs tweaking
17:31<Eddi|zuHause>like a way to simulate shift and ctrl
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17:33<FLHerne> Is there any way to simulate right-clicking?
17:33<FLHerne>Such as [modifier]-click or something
17:33<Nat_aS>apparently that port can't handle click dranging
17:33<Nat_aS>which makes tracks hard to do
17:34<FLHerne>That would be annoying
17:34<FLHerne>Even more so than not being able to move the map
17:35<Nat_aS>almost as anoying as SImutrans autorail feature
17:35<Nat_aS>less because it wont do things you don't want it to do
17:36<FLHerne>What does that do? Never played Simutrans...
17:36<Nat_aS>in simutrans you can lay tracks by clicking in two points, and letting the pathfinding engine pick the best route between them
17:36<Eddi|zuHause>i'd be more worried about assembling trains
17:37<Nat_aS>this sounds like a good idea unless you want to lay parallel tracks
17:37<Nat_aS>because it tries to use existing tracks whenever posible
17:37<Nat_aS>and will connect instead of following
17:38-!-supermop [~daniel_er@rrcs-72-43-171-87.nyc.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: supermop]
17:38<Eddi|zuHause>i remember how annoying it was in TTT to get a second track next to an existing one
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17:45<@planetmaker><FLHerne> Is there any way to simulate right-clicking? <-- there is. At least on OSX
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18:07<andythenorth>@calc 3.6-2.4
18:07<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: 1.2
18:07<andythenorth>@calc 1.2/3.6
18:07<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: 0.333333333333
18:07<andythenorth>that's quite a bit faster :O
18:09<@Terkhen>good night
18:10<andythenorth>good night Terkhen
18:21*andythenorth -> bed
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18:24<Nat_aS>Fffffffffffff I hate shitty Bioses
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18:24<Nat_aS>can't seem to boot off of anything
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18:25<Nat_aS>how am I going to install ubuntu onto this damn thing if I can't get it to boot off of USB, and installing off of a CD crashes halfway through
18:29<TinoDidriksen>Nat_aS, just use VirtualBox?
18:30<Nat_aS>how does that work?
18:32<TinoDidriksen>http://virtualbox.org/ - it's a virtual machine, but if you have a CPU with virtualization extensions then it's almost as fast as native.
18:33<Nat_aS>well a friend of mine picked up a used computer at goodwill, and I want to reformat it to run ubuntu because it's previous owners left it full of spyware
18:33<Nat_aS>but I can'
18:34<Nat_aS>can't get it to boot of of USB, and booting off of CD is really slow and has lots of disk read errors
18:34<TinoDidriksen>Oh...well then, you can put the HDD in another machine and install, then move it back.
18:34<Nat_aS>...
18:35<Nat_aS>if only I had another machine, all my computers are laptops
18:35<Nat_aS>:V
18:35<Nat_aS>but that is a good idea.
18:35<Nat_aS>shit
18:35<@planetmaker>you can also attach a HDD to a laptop, you know...
18:36<Nat_aS>actualy my vaio does have an Esata port
18:36<Nat_aS>so I plug that in, then plug my USB key into another port, then boot off of that, and install Ubuntu into the pluged in drive?
18:37<Nat_aS>careful not to accidently select my laptop's own HD and reformat the Windows install there
18:37<TinoDidriksen>I would remove the laptop drive while doing that, just to be sure it doesn't install Grub there.
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18:37<+glx>the other way is network install using a boot cd
18:37<Nat_aS>network install?
18:38<TinoDidriksen>Does Ubuntu have a netinst edition any longer?
18:39<TinoDidriksen>Yes it does...
18:39<TinoDidriksen>https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Installation/MinimalCD
18:39<TinoDidriksen>Fewer read errors that way.
18:39<Nat_aS>oh good idea
18:40<Nat_aS>I'll need to get another disk though
18:40<Nat_aS>this is my last one
18:40<Nat_aS>Is there a floppy install option :P
18:40<Nat_aS>this computer has a floppy drive
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18:40<+glx>RW discs exist for a reason :)
18:41<Nat_aS>aren't RW's less reliable though?
18:41<Nat_aS>Can I burn over this?
18:41<TinoDidriksen>RW is fine these days.
18:42<Nat_aS>i hate optical media SO MUCH
18:42<Nat_aS>I want it to die faster
18:42<@planetmaker>you have a window?
18:42<@planetmaker>throw it out. It then dies quite quickly
18:44<Nat_aS>lol
18:44<Nat_aS>i mean as a medium
18:44<Nat_aS>I want it to be all digital distribution
18:44<Nat_aS>I want to be able to install oSes from the internet as well.
18:44<Eddi|zuHause>we used to use DVD+RW, but the disks got quite unreliable after several dozen overwrites
18:45<Eddi|zuHause>and suddenly the other guy's burned disks were not readable in my computer anymore, but when i burned over them they worked fine
18:45<Eddi|zuHause>so only one-way
18:45<Eddi|zuHause>which made it kinda awkward
18:45<Eddi|zuHause>then we invested in a USB stick :p
18:46<Eddi|zuHause>have never seen a BIOS that couldn't boot off USB though
18:46<TinoDidriksen>You can get 500gb USB3 harddrives that only need USB power for €100 these days...wonderful times.
18:46<Eddi|zuHause>at least if it's newer than 10 years
18:46<Eddi|zuHause>500GB used to be 50€ a year ago
18:47<TinoDidriksen>Only for the versions that need external power.
18:47<TinoDidriksen>These are thin things that fit in a pocket.
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18:48<Eddi|zuHause>and if he "got a used computer" it might not have USB3
18:48<+glx>ah 2.5" drives
18:48<TinoDidriksen>Nono, I was more talking instead of USB sticks and DVD-RW in general.
18:49<Eddi|zuHause>i think i paid something like 40€ back then for my sloooooow 8GB stick
18:49<Eddi|zuHause>it's really small though
18:50<Eddi|zuHause>have it on my key ring
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19:02<Nat_aS>it's suposed to be able to boot from USB, one of the options on the boot menu is USB-HDD
19:02<Nat_aS>but It wont do it
19:02<Nat_aS>it just boots straight to windows
19:02<Nat_aS>I wish there was a way to install an OS from a running OS
19:03<Nat_aS>even if that OS is a malware infested mess.
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19:04<Eddi|zuHause>windows might not allow you to access the boot sector
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19:08<Nat_aS>man, this mini CD is almost small enough to fit on floppys
19:08<Nat_aS>12.5 mb
19:08<Nat_aS>that's like what, 10 disks?
19:08<@planetmaker>just a factor of 10...
19:08<TinoDidriksen>Floppy is 1.44mb
19:08<@planetmaker>wrong! it's 360 kByte!
19:08<Eddi|zuHause>you mean 1.7MB :p
19:08<Nat_aS>I just need a disk
19:09<Nat_aS>TO THE STORE!
19:09<@planetmaker>It's 720 kByte!
19:09<@planetmaker>It's 1.2Mbyte!
19:09<Eddi|zuHause>actually, the Win95-CD was split into 1.7MB "disks"
19:09<Eddi|zuHause>and it actually worked copying them to actual disks to install without a CD drive
19:09<@planetmaker>oh, that was fun... I had a programme which could indeed format the floppies to that kind of size...
19:10<@planetmaker>Often it worked. But not always
19:10<Eddi|zuHause>jep, VGACOPY
19:10<@planetmaker>^^ indeed
19:10<Eddi|zuHause>haven't seen a case where it didn't work
19:10<Eddi|zuHause>but maybe those disks don't age as well
19:11<Nat_aS>my corner store MIGHT sell blank CDs
19:11<Nat_aS>otherwise I'm gonna give up for the night
19:11<@planetmaker>it didn't always work on those disks which you "enhanced" from 720kByte to 1.4 MByte by removing some plastic
19:11<Eddi|zuHause>oh...
19:11<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, different thing :)
19:11<@planetmaker>:-) yeah
19:11<Nat_aS>I got a Neotokyo Tourny in an hour, I can't be all stressed
19:11<Eddi|zuHause>probably depends on the manufacturing quality then
19:11<@planetmaker>yep, that made a difference there
19:12<Eddi|zuHause>you're way older than me :p
19:12<@peter1138>what are you talking about?
19:12<@peter1138>floppy disks are 5¼" and hold 100KB on a side
19:13<@peter1138>if you're lucky got DD disks, 200KB a side!
19:13<@planetmaker>nah. 180kByte
19:13<@planetmaker>those were those MS Word 5.0 for DOS shipped on
19:13<@planetmaker>20 pieces...
19:13<@peter1138>yeah, double density
19:13<@planetmaker>what a pain to install
19:13<Eddi|zuHause>i have seen an actual 8" disk once. and a drive for it (on separate occasions)
19:13<@planetmaker>and a drive sound like an elch
19:14<@peter1138>what's an elch?
19:14<@planetmaker>Hm... Swedish animal? Probably wrong word then
19:14<Eddi|zuHause>he means an elk :p
19:14<@planetmaker>^^
19:15<@peter1138>they're not swedish
19:16<Eddi|zuHause>for broad definitions of "sweden" :p
19:17<MNIM>if that includes large parts of the northern hemisphere, sure
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19:18<@planetmaker>Rain is British, Elks are Swedish, Sauerkraut is German. ;-)
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19:30<Nat_aS>No disks at the corner store
19:30<Nat_aS>I bought candy instead
19:30<Nat_aS>delicious candy
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19:32<MNIM>wrong. both rain and sauerkraut are dutch! >.>
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19:37<Nat_aS>I have an old Laptop that may or may not work
19:38<Nat_aS>only problem is it has no WiFi card
19:38<Nat_aS>I need to buy a USB wi-fi adapter and blank CDs
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19:55<+glx>it doesn't have an ethernet port ?
19:56<Nat_aS>yeah but we don't have a long enough ethernet cable
19:56<Eddi|zuHause>it's a laptop. move it.
19:56<Wolf01>'night
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19:57<Eddi|zuHause>night fro... i mean wolf...
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---Logclosed Sun Mar 11 00:00:46 2012