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#openttd IRC Logs for 2012-03-12

---Logopened Mon Mar 12 00:00:47 2012
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03:42<Ammler>Eddi|zuHause: how much memory would you need?
03:46*andythenorth needs more memory
03:47<andythenorth>I keep forgetting things :|
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04:10<Ammler>building cets likes to break the whole system awesome :-)
04:13<Ammler>maybe memory increase is also related to Hirundos optimations
04:13<andythenorth>Ammler: good to push boundaries ;)
04:15<andythenorth>system capabilities ;)
04:15<andythenorth>stretching things causes improvements
04:15<Ammler>yes, I rised limit from 4GB to 6
04:16<Ammler>cets seems to build again
04:17<andythenorth>so now I have my pixa module, but the imports have to be 'from pixa.pixa'
04:17<andythenorth>do I care?
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04:22<@planetmaker>wot? compiling cets needs more than 4GB ram?
04:23<@planetmaker>that sounds... way too much to me
04:23<SpComb>andythenorth: once you have your code split across more than one module
04:24<SpComb>andythenorth: you can also have stuff in your
04:24<andythenorth>I should probably split the code up logically
04:25<andythenorth>currently it's nice to only have one editor window :P
04:26<Ammler>planetmaker: that is not the limit of the build, that is the limit of the whole system
04:27<Ammler>build host had around 1GB
04:29<andythenorth>now I have to run everytime I make a change to pixa :)
04:31<Ammler>or use it like nml
04:32<andythenorth>dunno how to do that
04:33<Ammler>or simply exapnd PYTHONPATH
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06:44<dihedral>hello :-)
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07:40<Eddi|zuHause>Ammler: if the build itself "only" uses ~1GB, what's using the other 3GB?
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07:59<Ammler>I did not check the real memory usage, just guessing
07:59<Ammler>but around 3GB is always reserved
08:01<Ammler>hmm, gunicorn is quite a memory waster
08:01<Ammler>maybe I should again test uwsgi
08:03<Eddi|zuHause>not sure why the memory usage is so high, anyway. we have ca. 350k loc (~5MB) of sources. that means for every line it uses ~500kB of memory...
08:06<Eddi|zuHause>btw, i have done a new profile run, after i "optimized out" the whole template calculations, now the time spent in dropped from 150s to 12s
08:06<Eddi|zuHause>compare and
08:07<Eddi|zuHause>now the majority of the time is spent in the parser
08:09<Eddi|zuHause>oh, i think i misread the numbers, 125k loc, which makes it even worse
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08:49<DanMacK>Hey all
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10:37<dorfle>does openttd model an economy in an interesting way
10:38<rane>i've been wondering if there are some essential addons that make the game more interesting
10:44<dorfle>salut rane
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11:12<@planetmaker>dorfle, rane: define "interesting"
11:13<@planetmaker>personally I'll answer 'yes' to both of your questions
11:14<dorfle>i cannot define it, it's a question of opinion :)
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11:18<Hirundo>Eddi|zuHause: Ironically, binop::reduce spends most of its time optimizing... I guess the optimization needs optimization ;-)
11:18<dihedral>dorfle, yes it is interesting
11:22<rane>planetmaker: no idea
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11:24<@planetmaker>rane, then... how can anyone else answer your (implicit) question?
11:25<rane>by recommending addons they've found to be an interesting addition to the game
11:25<@planetmaker>My suggestion for you is: look through the tt-forums. You'll find mentioned plenty
11:26<@planetmaker>Explore the online content. Try a few. Maybe just in a quick test game
11:26<@planetmaker>Or look at games, say, from the public server archive
11:26<@planetmaker>or also from the forums
11:27<@planetmaker>of course I'll recommend "my" NewGRFs...
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12:05<evdvelde>hi all, what is the easiest way in the game to convert rail types? :-)
12:05<evdvelde>I want to upgrade but converting every piece by hand seems like quite a jobe
12:05<@planetmaker>using the convert button
12:05<@planetmaker>it's a drag&drop
12:05<evdvelde>planetmaker: that could take ages, not?
12:06<@planetmaker>dragging the whole screen is one action
12:06<@planetmaker>zoom out, drag whole map with convert tool. done
12:06<evdvelde>and what about the trains?
12:06<@planetmaker>send to depot
12:06<@planetmaker>and replace by proper type for new track
12:06<@planetmaker>or if tracks are incompatible you'll have to build new ones
12:06<@planetmaker>in another depot.
12:06<evdvelde>ah ok, so... just replace them all and it should work?
12:06<@planetmaker>you could share orders with old trains though
12:07<evdvelde>pfew :)
12:07<Eddi|zuHause>or use the universal railtype
12:07<evdvelde>i have 20+ trains in an fully connected network and would hate to manually have to check each rail :)
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12:08<@planetmaker><planetmaker> zoom out, drag whole map with convert tool. done
12:08<@planetmaker>thus no tile needs checking
12:09<evdvelde>ok thanks and then i'll have to see how fast i can change my trains
12:09<TinoDidriksen>...that's the kind of thing I turn "build while paused" on for.
12:11<@planetmaker>TinoDidriksen, I only wish people were upgrading or repairing infrastructure also while "paused" ;-)
12:11<@planetmaker>in reallife
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12:12<evdvelde>the other thing that bugged me in my first long openttd game was how fast some industries disappeared
12:18<andythenorth>orly? :)
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12:54<giucam>i really like openttd, but mostly the trains. is there an ai that builds and manages buses in the towns and connect them to my train stations?
12:56<dihedral>iirc other companies cannot connect to eachothers stations
12:56<dihedral>it only allows connecting to own stations
12:56<dihedral>and an ai runs its own company
12:57<giucam>too bad
12:57<@planetmaker>There's no "play me" script for player companies
12:58<giucam>well, just "play buses for me" :)
12:58<giucam>it would be a simbyotic relationship
12:58<dihedral>that sounds like a job for TB :-P
12:59<@planetmaker>dihedral, that was explicitly rejected
12:59<@planetmaker>especially and foremost by TB
13:00<@planetmaker>giucam, it's a guy :-)
13:00<giucam>ah :)
13:00<giucam>i though it was a project
13:01<Prof_Frink>I thought it was a disease.
13:01<dihedral>pm: i know ;-)
13:01<@planetmaker>he wrote OpenTTD's game script interface
13:02<giucam>btw, is there some paper explaining ottd's pathfinder?
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13:03<giucam>i mean how it's implemented
13:03<@planetmaker>There's the source code
13:03<@planetmaker>It's the ultimate documentation ;-)
13:04<@planetmaker>It's an A* path finder
13:04<giucam>eh, but there are the signals
13:04<giucam>(i'm talking about the trains)
13:04<@planetmaker>doesn't change anything of what I said
13:05<@planetmaker>it's just how penalties for it are chosen
13:05<@planetmaker>and those are in the config file
13:06<giucam>i've been working on a 3d railroad sim. i could write an A* pathfinder to go from point A to point B, but i didn't know how to add in siglans
13:07<@planetmaker>Each rail tile gets a penalty.
13:07<@planetmaker>Signals are on rail tiles
13:07<@planetmaker>Thus their presence, their type and their state may change the rail tile's value
13:07<@planetmaker>the path with the least penalties is the best
13:09<@planetmaker>path finder is called everytime a train reaches a tile where tracks branch
13:09<giucam>ok, but i was calculating the path when the train starts. this won't work if a signal becomes red after it started
13:10<giucam>when does openttdf calculates the path?
13:10<Rhamphoryncus>Many of those value changes only apply when a train is nearby though. That's why you can have two tracks and a train will always go along them, regardless of how loaded the other end is, but will pick a nearby one that has the least red signals
13:10<@planetmaker>^^ :-)
13:10<+glx>at each junction
13:10<Rhamphoryncus>(it's more complicated than just a count of red signals, but that's the gist of it)
13:11<Eddi|zuHause><Prof_Frink> I thought it was a disease. <-- no, that's TBC :p
13:11<giucam>planetmaker: oh, i didn't see your last message :)
13:11<Rhamphoryncus>I thought FIRS was a disease?
13:11<@planetmaker>yeah. Only the next 20(?) signals or so are considered with their state
13:11<Rhamphoryncus>And each is given a different weight
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13:13<giucam>i don't know if i will ever continue it, though :P
13:13<Eddi|zuHause>make an OpenTT3D :)
13:13<giucam>that's the idea, more or less :)
13:14<Rhamphoryncus>yeah, make an opengl renderer for openttd
13:14<giucam>i'd want an openttd with more track directions and with nicer looking terrain
13:14<Eddi|zuHause>Rhamphoryncus: the _renderer_ isn't really that big of a problem...
13:14<Rhamphoryncus>Which problem? :)
13:15<giucam>it would still be 2d
13:16<Rhamphoryncus>Ahh, openttd is closer to doing that than you realize, at least for the graphics
13:17<giucam>you mean the terrain or the tracks?
13:17<evdvelde>if you look at the overview of e.g. trains, is it possible to autogroup them by something else than All availble and Ungrouped Trains? E.g. all trains with non-electric engines
13:17<Rhamphoryncus>higher resolution and colour depth for all sprites
13:17<giucam>ah yes, i saw that
13:17<giucam>i'm indeed playign with 32bpp
13:17<@planetmaker>Rhamphoryncus, it needs roughly 1500 sprites
13:17<Eddi|zuHause>evdvelde: no. the last attempt at making that more flexible didn't go anywhere (yet)
13:18<Rhamphoryncus>planetmaker: *nod* I need to install it and see how it works
13:18<evdvelde>Eddi|zuHause: thanks for the answer, pity though :)
13:18<@planetmaker>install what?
13:18<giucam>but that's not what i'd want
13:18<Rhamphoryncus>the 32bpp stuff. Whatever stuff there is. :)
13:18<@planetmaker>that needs WAY more sprites (about 10k)
13:18<Rhamphoryncus>I have tried the 32bpp renderers before. Sadly a significant performance penalty :/
13:18<Eddi|zuHause>Rhamphoryncus: 32bpp and extra-zoom doesn't make it 3D
13:18<@planetmaker>I meant 3D or rather rotation
13:19<Rhamphoryncus>We all have different intentions, heh
13:19<@planetmaker>I don't have such intention. I just once did the maths to give people a number who "request" that feature ;-)
13:20<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: if you mean map rotation, what about all the newgrfs?
13:20*Rhamphoryncus will break out MS Paint via wine and start drawing
13:20<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause, bad luck. Disable rotation feature, if there's a NewGRF which has not set the "allow rotation" bit set
13:20<Eddi|zuHause>Rhamphoryncus: do yourself a favour and start with gimp
13:20<Rhamphoryncus>I was joking :)
13:21<@planetmaker>Thus it would require explicit NewGRF support
13:21<@planetmaker>One could go fancy and check for features used in the grf.
13:22<@planetmaker>It would only need explicit support by houses, industry tiles, airport tiles and objects.
13:22<@planetmaker>hm. and stations
13:22<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: i would definitely vote against such a feature then
13:22<Rhamphoryncus>For single tile houses you could have a fallback of cheating and just reusing the directions
13:23<@planetmaker>Rhamphoryncus, that's ugly
13:23<Rhamphoryncus>Yup, but as a fallback it works
13:23<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: you basically invalidate all existing newgrfs
13:23<@planetmaker>I'd vote against such fallback :-)
13:23<@planetmaker>If the NewGRF author makes it so: then it's explicit
13:23<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause, no, I don't
13:23<@planetmaker>They all will continue to work
13:24<@planetmaker>And there's no way to add rotation other than this way
13:24<@planetmaker>or breaking it completely and adding 3D models. But that's worse wrt breaking stuff
13:24<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: then add no rotation at all
13:24<@planetmaker>I think that argument is a very weak one, Eddi|zuHause
13:24<@planetmaker>As really nothing breaks
13:25<@planetmaker>And new features generally are only supported by new NewGRFs
13:25<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: transparency and "terrain slicing" can do an eqivalent job, without breaking anything
13:25<@planetmaker>as said: nothing breaks
13:26<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: using an old newgrf "breaks" the rotation. from the user's point of view
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13:27<@planetmaker>it simply supports no rotation ;-)
13:27<Eddi|zuHause>a user doesn't know that
13:27<@planetmaker>oh, he can know that. It's a matter of how it's communicated
13:27<Eddi|zuHause>and then he comes to the forum
13:27<Rhamphoryncus>Many dimetric games I've played have reused the same sprite for all directions. It works fine. It's not eyecandy, but it works.
13:28<Rubidium>pff... we already have two rotations. Who needs any more?
13:28<Eddi|zuHause>and then we tell him "either newgrf X or rotation. choose"
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13:28<Eddi|zuHause>and then he will be disappointed
13:28<@planetmaker>poor user
13:28<Eddi|zuHause>because the scenario he downloaded was so interesting
13:28<Rhamphoryncus>Rubidium: two?
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13:28<Eddi|zuHause>but he cannot update the grfs to a newer version
13:29<Eddi|zuHause>because there either isn't one, or even if there was one, updating is disabled
13:29<@planetmaker>Current scenarios are no argument really. As they're just savegames with NewGRFs
13:30<Eddi|zuHause>which is another problem. we have this fancy grf versioning, but it's effectively useless, because the GUI doesn't support updating to "compatible" versions
13:30<@planetmaker>I really don't like to call them scenarios tbh :-)
13:30<Eddi|zuHause>anyway, gtg
13:30<Rhamphoryncus>"compatible" or *compatible*? ;)
13:30<@planetmaker>also... I don't need more rotations ;-)
13:31<Rhamphoryncus>Me either. In games that rotate I usually stick to just one so I don't get disoriented
13:32<Rhamphoryncus>I do get disoriented easily though
13:33<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: that's another argument for not introducing rotations :p
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13:39<@planetmaker><planetmaker> I don't have such intention. I just once did the maths to give people a number who "request" that feature ;-) <-- I started with that statement, Eddi|zuHause ;-)
13:39<@planetmaker>and I don't think it's a feature out of question. It "just" needs lots of dedication. And it would not invalidate the slicing or whatever you mentioned
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14:12<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: 'compatible' is no such thing
14:12<andythenorth>it's a meaningless claim
14:14<andythenorth>for as long as one newgrf can break another...
14:15<andythenorth>or for as long as 'disable self if another newgrf not present' is considered to be desirable behaviour
14:16<andythenorth>I find the last case insane tbh, and think the spec should say so
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14:17<andythenorth>just as it's possible to write unclosed while loops - but if you do, you're considered quite an idiot
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14:46<CIA-1>OpenTTD: translators * r24026 /trunk/src/lang/ (13 files): (log message trimmed)
14:46<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
14:46<CIA-1>OpenTTD: belarusian - 1 changes by Wowanxm
14:46<CIA-1>OpenTTD: czech - 43 changes by Eskymak
14:46<CIA-1>OpenTTD: dutch - 15 changes by habell
14:46<CIA-1>OpenTTD: english_AU - 14 changes by tomas4g
14:46<CIA-1>OpenTTD: french - 1 changes by OliTTD
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15:35<frosch123>i enter a website, then switch to a german site to get more local information, and i get a latin one ....
15:36<frosch123>oh hmm, every paragraph has the same text, so i guess it just means it's not done :p
15:38<@planetmaker>lorem ipsum?
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15:41<frosch123>i just did not get it, but thought it was some swedish joke :p
15:43<frosch123>though i think it were the finish you refused to publish euroean stuff also in german some years ago, and provided latin translations instead
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15:49<dorfle>hi :)
15:49<@planetmaker>sounds like a nice idea, frosch123, to "just" provide latin ;-)
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15:57<Zuu_>Any ideas for something to add to neighbours are important?
15:59<__ln__>unable to parse sentence
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16:00<Zuu_>Last three words are the name of a game script.
16:00<frosch123>you should ask somewhere where people actually play :p
16:01<Zuu_>Maybe Im as Andy on picking descriptive names ;)
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16:02<Zuu_>Good point frosh123
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16:20<Zuu_>Hmm those at #tycoon claim that they haven't discused anything TTD related since 2005. I guess I should just use my imagnation or join a game server.
16:21<@orudge>Well, that's not quite true.
16:21<@orudge>But it's mostly a "chat" channel these days
16:21<@orudge>rather than a "TTD chat" channel.
16:21<@orudge>Very occasionally TTD discussion occurs. :p
16:29<andythenorth>I went in there once
16:29<andythenorth>it didn't seem like my kind of place
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16:29<andythenorth>seemed a fair chance that I might argue with people
16:29<andythenorth>or as I like to call them, 'idiots' :P
16:31<frosch123>lol, zuu tried #tycoon after my comment :p
16:32<frosch123>now i feel really sorry
16:32<frosch123>noone should be sent to #tycoon :p
16:35<Zuu_>Hehe I thought that they might be playing the game but it turned out to be an equivalent of the off-topic forum.
16:36<Prof_Frink>Zuu_: Don't be a silly. We make *far* less sense.
16:37<Zuu_>Sorry for overestimating you :)
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16:43<Zuu_>Oh,.... so that was a disconnect button. XD
16:45<Zuu_>Did I told you that Im out of ideas on what to kill the last hour at the train with. :p
16:48<__ln__>sounds violent
16:50<Zuu_>Maybe I rephased "to kill some time" badly.
16:51<Rhamphoryncus>uhh.. huh. Well that's amusingly wrong. Vertol in aviator set having slings? Nice. Having the occasional gmund mog as the sling for engineering supplies? Also nice. Delivering a gmond mog to an oil platform? Not so nice. ;)
16:51<andythenorth>blame me for that
16:51<andythenorth>I asked Pikka to add it :)
16:53<Pikka>maybe they're using it to plug a hole :)
16:53<Rhamphoryncus>I should join #tycoon. If you're afraid of having an argument then either I'll be completely fine.. or I'll cause a riot and be banned from the server.
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16:55<Rhamphoryncus>Ooh, that one looks like a tractor
16:56<Rhamphoryncus>I need to con someone into making a fantasy ships newgrf. Nuclear barges that can outrun small aircraft :D
16:58<andythenorth>ask V453000
16:58<V453000>im for sure not making ships newGRF :p
16:59<Rhamphoryncus>Is FISH really supposed to give all ships at 1870 and have them last forever?
17:01<andythenorth>is your question about an ideal world, or a 'get things done' workd?
17:01<andythenorth>world /s
17:01<Rhamphoryncus>Conscious decision is fine with me :)
17:02<Rhamphoryncus>I'm just going to amuse myself with using ferries and paddle steamers to transport oil
17:03<FLHerne>Hmm..last time I played, UKRS2 Polybulk hoppers carried milk...
17:03<andythenorth>Rhamphoryncus: 1870 gave me ships to play with in my 1870-start games
17:03<andythenorth>ideally I'd draw more ships :P
17:03*Rhamphoryncus nods
17:03<andythenorth>it's not 1.0 yet right?
17:03<andythenorth>all crimes are forgiven < 1.0
17:03<FLHerne>Is this fixed in FIRS 0.7/UKRS Beta?
17:04<Rhamphoryncus>I am using it so I'm not complaining :)
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17:04<andythenorth>FLHerne: you have no idea of how many worms are under that can lid you're opening....
17:04<Zuu_> Hello Lord
17:04<Rhamphoryncus>I also have sailing ships but they expired a while back
17:04<FLHerne>Cargo classes do seem a bit odd
17:05<@Yexo>you have no idea.... ;)
17:05<FLHerne>Some combinations seem questionable at best...
17:05<@Yexo>but yes, you're right, they are questionable
17:05<@Yexo>and there have been a lot of very long discussions about the subject
17:05<@planetmaker>with emphasis on _long_
17:06<@planetmaker>not necessarily resulting in anything ;-)
17:06<Rhamphoryncus>Clearly we need to have more of them
17:06<Rhamphoryncus>(The floggings will continue until morale improves.)
17:08<LordAro>can anyone tell me how to use templates properly?
17:09<rane>what's the number?
17:09<@Yexo>what is your exact problem?
17:09<@Yexo>rane: the length of the train in tiles
17:10<@Yexo>if you don't use any newgrfs, the length of every engine and wagon is half a tile
17:10<@Yexo>you can use it to easily see whether a vehicle fits in a certain station or not
17:10<@Yexo><Yexo> what is your exact problem? <- LordAro: that was for you
17:11<rane>cool thanks
17:13<Zuu_>It used to be a bit more complicate, but now it just shows the length in tiles.
17:14<LordAro>Yexo: "...settings_gui.cpp:124:72: error: wrong number of template arguments (2, should be 3)"
17:14<@Yexo>which line is that?
17:15<LordAro>"const BaseSet<class Tbase_set, size_t Tnum_files, bool Tsearch_in_tars>* baseset; ///< View the textfile of this BaseSet."
17:17<@Yexo>I'll apply your patch and make some fixes
17:17<LordAro>thanks :)
17:20<LordAro>note that my usage of the 'templates' differs throughout the patch, due to my attempted fixes :)
17:21<LordAro>sorry :)
17:23<@Yexo>I'll apply your patch and make some fixes
17:24<@Yexo>LordAro: this compiles, I didn't test it
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17:26<LordAro>thank ye kindly :D
17:26<LordAro>it did work before i tried to use the templates (for sound + music), so it should be fine
17:26<@Yexo>the testing part is for you :)
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17:27<morph`>1.2.0 coming out tomorrow omg omg?
17:27<@Yexo>where did you hear that myth?
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17:29<morph`>I hoped someone would respond with "Omg how did you know?"
17:29<morph`>Was worth a try
17:30<@Yexo>look at the release dates for 1.1, 1.0 and 0.7
17:30<@Yexo>might give you a clue :p
17:31<morph`>OMG, I just found OpenTTD+Yogscast
17:31<morph`>2 of my favorite things
17:32<morph`>Damn, April Fools day is so far away
17:32<@planetmaker>you know... there's an 1.2.0-RC2...
17:32<@planetmaker>and there are always nightly builds
17:33<@planetmaker>so... why do you wait?
17:33<@planetmaker>why do you care for a release date? :-)
17:33<morph`>Because Im a caring person
17:33<morph`>I cuddle stuff
17:33<morph`>I cuddle this-
17:33<morph`>Nothing cuter on deviantart
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17:37<andythenorth>planetmaker: wrt classes, the discussion *did* result in agreeing they're "done" for FIRS :)
17:37<andythenorth>and that we don't mangle them to support legacy vehicle sets
17:37<@planetmaker>yes. Actually it also led to deprecate the two related properties in NML
17:37<andythenorth>and that labels are the only guaranteed support method :)
17:38<andythenorth>and that classes are for future, unknown cargos, not known cargos :)
17:38<@planetmaker>so it had some positive effect
17:38<andythenorth>and that the XOR mask was fricking insane for normal humans, however sane it seemed at the time
17:39<andythenorth>but probably, milk still goes by covered hopper in UKRS 2 ;)
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17:44<LordAro>Yexo: it works! :D
17:45*LordAro submits patch to flyspray
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17:55<LordAro>@fs 5099
17:55<LordAro>^ there you go :)
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17:56<@planetmaker>Someone found frosch's list of wanted features :-)
17:56<LordAro>indeed :P
17:57<frosch123>yeah, proscription also seems to work for patches :p
17:57<@planetmaker>haha :-)
17:57<LordAro>only took me a couple of evenings :)
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18:05<andythenorth>I don't much like this:
18:06<andythenorth>from pixa.pixa import ham, eggs, foo, bar
18:06<andythenorth>pixa.pixa seems redundant
18:06<valhallasw>andythenorth: it is.
18:06<andythenorth>other than splitting all my code (undesirable)
18:06<andythenorth>what can I do?
18:06<valhallasw>andythenorth: you can solve it by having from pixa import ham, eggs, foo, bar in pixa/
18:07<valhallasw>at least, I'm guessing you have in a subdir called pixa
18:07<valhallasw>or even 'from pixa import *' in the
18:07<andythenorth>import * is bad form?
18:07<valhallasw>it's ok for an
18:08<valhallasw>although I prefer the explicit import
18:08<valhallasw>but especially if it's a single import it's OK, as it is clear where the names in the namespace are imported from
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18:16<andythenorth>bed pour moi
18:20<Arafangion>valhallasw: Trouble is... *today* it's a single import, *tomorrow* you need a new module.
18:21<LordAro>night all
18:21<Arafangion>'import *' is generally very much frowned upon.
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18:23<valhallasw>Arafangion: import * is very generally used for
18:25<valhallasw>the stdlib always uses explicit import as far as I can see, but e.g. django uses import * very often for __init__s
18:26<Arafangion>valhallasw: Ah, django - I don't have much experience with that, but I'll conceed you could do far worse than have import * in
18:27<valhallasw>it's somewhat annoying if you don't have a good debugger/IDE, but it's not that much of a pain - and it's significantly less maintenance effort
18:27<valhallasw>for django, that is
18:27<valhallasw>then again, explicit is better than implicit [/zen of python]
18:28<Arafangion>valhallasw: If there are lots of things I want from a given python module, I tend to prefer the 'import whatever as wh', and optionally followed by: 'foo, bar, baz =,, wh.baz', although I'm undecided about the latter.
18:29<valhallasw>Arafangion: I generally do 'import whatever' followed by 'from whatever import foo, bar, baz' in those cases
18:29<Arafangion>That's not so bad either, I should find out just how much slower that is.
18:31<Arafangion>A big concern with 'import *''s, is what if they define a global you have come to expect, or redefine something from another module that you expected to have.
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18:32<Arafangion>Eg, you could confuse os.walk with os.path.walk.
18:33<valhallasw>Arafangion: I'm guessing it's not much slower, as a second import does not run any code. It might be different if you use import hooks, though.
18:33<Arafangion>valhallasw: Yeah, I have all my code in a .zip :)
18:34<Arafangion>But the second import does more stuff, it differs if eg, foo, bar, baz are submodules.
18:34<Arafangion>My form wouldn't import them, but yours would.
18:36<valhallasw>yep, that's true
18:36<Arafangion>But my biggest, biggest concern, really, is that * imports tend to cause too much confusion.
18:37<Arafangion>Especially with duplicate symbol names.
18:37<Arafangion>Especially if someone, somewhere redefines str(), which gets import *'ed into a module, which you then import *.
18:37<Arafangion>Just gets really messy.
18:38<valhallasw>Yep. But again, that mainly is a problem for generic code, not so much for __init__s.
18:41<Arafangion>True, but do consider that the main thing that brought this on is the annoyance of having a pixa.pixa setup.
18:41<Arafangion>Which is a somewhat... Odd setup.
18:41<Arafangion>Yikes, look at the time!
18:42*Arafangion gets ready for work! Thanks for the chat! :)
18:42<valhallasw>time for bed here :-)
18:42<valhallasw>have a nice day!
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18:47<@Terkhen>good night
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19:17<Eddi|zuHause>why not just rename pixa/ to pixa/
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---Logclosed Tue Mar 13 00:00:48 2012