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#openttd IRC Logs for 2012-03-13

---Logopened Tue Mar 13 00:00:48 2012
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08:11<rane>do people generally play with breakdowns on or off?
08:12<rane>it feels that breakdowns screw things up a bit
08:14<Eddi|zuHause>i don't know about "people", but i myself play generally with breakdowns off
08:19<@planetmaker>on the coop servers breakdowns are always off
08:23<rane>did this yesterday and realized it's not very efficient when i finally started transporting the goods http://cl.ly/0x3m3U0p0N1p201z460g/o
08:23<rane>need to l2p
08:24<Rhamphoryncus>I suspect the majority turns them off
08:25<Mazur>What's the use of building a good network if half the time it's clogged with broken down engines?
08:25<Mazur>One can learn nothing by it.
08:25<rane>yeah…
08:26<Rhamphoryncus>wth is with that double tunnel just left of the factory?
08:26<Mazur>You never find out the real flaws or bottlenecks, because there are not trains running, and all the queues are because of breakdowns.
08:26<rane>you don't like my double tunnel?
08:26<rane>Mazur: good point
08:26<Rhamphoryncus>Yeah, broken down engines do nothing but reduce your throughput by a large factor. There's no nuance to managing them.
08:26<Mazur>Of course it's a good point, it's my point.
08:26<Rhamphoryncus>If it had a signal between tunnelheads I'd like it
08:26<Mazur>:-P
08:27<Rhamphoryncus>And they force you to use depots regularly, but since they're so slow you end up having legions of them
08:28<MNIM>mehhh, where's the improved breakdowns?
08:28<Mazur>That problem can be mitigated with Service Centres.
08:29<Rhamphoryncus>Service centres, more intelligent pathing, and improved breakdowns.
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09:39<@Belugas>hello
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10:41<dihedral>oi
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11:28<@planetmaker>we've a winner of the titlegame contest: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=57555&p=1000663#p1000663
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11:29<Rhamphoryncus>nice :D
11:31<SpComb>+1 for that station entrance junction layout
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11:35<Rhamphoryncus>4 different directions?
11:36<Rhamphoryncus>5
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11:43<Eddi|zuHause>damn, forgot to vote...
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12:29<evdvelde>hi all, do the towers in the game have a certain meaning? or are they just decoration that stands in the way? :)
12:29<Eddi|zuHause>yes
12:30<Eddi|zuHause>they have the meaning that they stand in the way :p
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12:30<evdvelde>Eddi|zuHause: oh funny, mock me :(
12:30<evdvelde>;)
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12:32<evdvelde>some cities keep finding me appaling, even though i have done advertising campains, planted trees and my businesses there get a good rating, how can i fix this? feels like a bug, but it could be my mistake too :)
12:32<Eddi|zuHause>advertising campaign doesn't change town rating
12:32<Eddi|zuHause>planting trees only helps on tiles that didn't have a tree before
12:33<Eddi|zuHause>"good service" is irrelevant, "frequent service" is important
12:33<Eddi|zuHause>i.e. don't have a station that is rarely visited, only have stations that are visited often
12:33<evdvelde>there was also mentioned bribing somewhere in the wiki, but cant find that
12:33<Eddi|zuHause>"visited" means "at least one piece of cargo loaded or unloaded"
12:34<Eddi|zuHause>that has to be enabled in advanced settings
12:34<evdvelde>i was going to open a station that was going to be visited often, but they deny me to :)
12:34<Eddi|zuHause>rule #1: first build station, then build infrastructure
12:34<evdvelde>and it does not get better over time it seems, so there is nothing i can do?
12:34<Eddi|zuHause>rule #2: first build bus service, then build train station
12:34<evdvelde>and go more slowly probably
12:35<Eddi|zuHause>if you have a significant number of bus stations, that are visited regularly, then the rating is up in no time
12:37<evdvelde>ah, thx, that will help Eddi|zuHause
12:38<Rhamphoryncus>I'll quite often throw a pair of bus depots in every town I'm building near, just to make sure it never becomes an issue
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12:38<Rhamphoryncus>Lately I've been trying mail instead, since that should require less service
12:39<evdvelde>Rhamphoryncus: how do you mean less service Rhamphoryncus
12:39<evdvelde>I tend to let my busses and trucks take care of themselves :)
12:40<Rhamphoryncus>Less volume so as the town grows I won't need to add as many more
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12:50<evdvelde>i have to say that i like not only the game but also the community :)
12:51<evdvelde>many friendly people around here
12:53<@planetmaker>you haven't yet met the grumpy part :-P
12:54<evdvelde>so i dare to ask one last question for today :-) is there a way to automate servicing/replacing better? especially replacing is inconvenient with many buses etc
12:54<evdvelde>planetmaker: i'll try to keep it that way then :D
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12:55<@planetmaker>there's an autoreplace feature.
12:55<@planetmaker>and autorenew
12:55<@planetmaker>Servicing is done automatically, if depots are available. Or done as you order, if you include at least one depot order in the order list
12:56<@planetmaker>but then it's only done at the time where the schedule tells the vehicle to service
12:56<@planetmaker>http://wiki.openttd.org/Autoreplace and autorenew respectively
12:56<evdvelde>so autorenew is an option i just have enable in the advanced game options? i encountered that, i think
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12:57<@planetmaker>no. In the vehicle list
12:57<@planetmaker>well, see the wiki page. It illustrates it
12:57<evdvelde>ah... i see... thanks a lot!
12:59<evdvelde>it is autorenew that is an option :)
13:00<@planetmaker>ah, yes
13:00<@planetmaker>too similar words ;-)
13:03<andythenorth>maybe auto-replace and auto-renew should be merged
13:03<@planetmaker>yes
13:04<@planetmaker>@seen someone
13:04<@DorpsGek>planetmaker: someone was last seen in #openttd 1 year, 21 weeks, 1 day, 23 hours, 23 minutes, and 47 seconds ago: <Someone> indeed
13:04<@planetmaker>old slacker him
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13:07<andythenorth>maybe everything in that area is just consist management
13:10<evdvelde>i would prefer to have a lot of automated management, allowing me to do macromanagement and building mostly
13:12<@planetmaker>I tend to agree, andythenorth
13:13<@planetmaker>evdvelde, isn't that macro-management?
13:13<@planetmaker>You select a global replacement rule for all your vehicles?
13:13<evdvelde>planetmaker: yes, that is one of the things i have just found out indeed and i love it :)
13:13<andythenorth>or vehicles in arbitrary groups
13:14<@planetmaker>yup
13:14<andythenorth>seems so simple
13:15<rane>does coal mine produce more stuff over time if you maintain a high transported percentage? because this coal mine has 500t which is quite a lot
13:15<andythenorth>shall we code it for 2.0?
13:16<andythenorth>hmm. This baby is *very* loud
13:16<evdvelde>the grouping thing would be great too :) especially if you want e.g. to upgrade one part of your network to monorail first
13:17<andythenorth>planetmaker: does TTDP have consists?
13:17<Eddi|zuHause>rane: basically, yes
13:18<@planetmaker>rane, the max. is about 2000t / month
13:18<rane>what are some tricks to be efficient
13:18<rane>i try to have a train loading all the time
13:18<@planetmaker>that suffices
13:19<@planetmaker>it's a random walk with about 2/3 chance to go up, if your transported % is > 60%
13:19<andythenorth>if the goal for 2.0 is to merge TTDP into OTTD, then consists might not be allowed yet
13:19<@planetmaker>nah, the goal for 2.0 is a web app :-P
13:19<evdvelde>i saw there is even an android app :)
13:19<MNIM>oh, I thought the goal for 2.0 was virtual reality?
13:20<@planetmaker>yes, also
13:20<evdvelde>but there the screenie is a bit too small :D
13:20<@planetmaker>though it might be post-poned to 3.0 ;-)
13:20<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: by the time that gets out, we already have web 3.0 :p
13:20<MNIM>exactly :P
13:20<andythenorth>no no, the goal for 2.0 is merging in TTDP, that has now been decided
13:20<andythenorth>as it it causing big issues in the community
13:20<evdvelde>what about better gfx first? i like old school, but it is, well... very old school ;)
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13:21<andythenorth>and lack of merged in TTD makes developing newgrfs very hard
13:21<@planetmaker>evdvelde, yes... get drawing!
13:21<@planetmaker>(or modelling)
13:21<@planetmaker>I even pledge to code
13:21<evdvelde>perhaps i'll start coding, drawing is not my strong suit anyhow
13:21<MNIM>andythenorth: in relation to your earlier comment about loud babies, that means they either need food, clean diapers or mommy. all three is good too, of course
13:22<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: there won't be a 2.0... we go 1.3, 1.4, ... and then decide to drop the 1, and go 5.0, 6.0, ...
13:22<@planetmaker>that'd be FireTTD
13:24<Rubidium>andythenorth: but there'll never be a merged TTD
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13:24<Rubidium>there'll always be something OpenTTD doesn't/can't do what TTDPatch can
13:25<Eddi|zuHause>unifiedmaglev!!
13:25<MNIM>why don't you just adopt a ubuntu-like release schedule? make a new version every (half) year or so, what you've got a month before the deadline is your beta, then you make it stable.
13:25<rane>continuing on what i just asked, does this mean that it's worthwhile to transport stuff from even quite low production industries in hopes to increase it?
13:25<MNIM>without ubuntu's silly shenanigans of course.
13:25<Rubidium>MNIM: we have an ubuntu like release schedule
13:25<MNIM>please no unity or 'long term support' betas :P
13:25<Rubidium>just it's a 12 month cycle
13:25<MNIM>oh, I thought you didn't have a fixed schedule
13:26<MNIM>then, disregard that, I am a dog.
13:26*MNIM barks.
13:26<Rubidium>well, it's not 100% fixed
13:26<Eddi|zuHause>we don't. it's just coincidence that our versions were released on the same date every year
13:26<Rubidium>but neither is Ubuntu's
13:26<MNIM>lol
13:26<MNIM>well, it's the intention, at least
13:27<Rubidium>Ubuntu's release dates are actually less predictable than ours
13:27<Rubidium>anyhow, DD was two months late
13:27<andythenorth>we ship on time :)
13:27<@planetmaker>it's imho a good thing to have a reasonably fast cycle. Slower than one year is... not nice or wouldn't be nice given the amount of things that change
13:27*andythenorth doesn't :P
13:28*andythenorth has just moved a commercial software from 1 year releases to monthly
13:28<andythenorth>too early to tell if that was dumb
13:28-!-Progman [~progman@p57A1A360.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd
13:28<Rubidium>oh bugger... an OSX bug at the top of the bug list again :(
13:28<@planetmaker>monthly releases?
13:28<andythenorth>12x the deployment work, 12x the client management hassle
13:29<andythenorth>but newer features for clients sooner
13:30<MNIM>Rubidium: I take it you can't just drop OSX alltogether and tell people to use WINE or whatsthatstuffonappleagain?
13:30<andythenorth>you could
13:30<Eddi|zuHause>MNIM: we did that
13:31<Rubidium>MNIM: problem is that not making OSX binaries gives even more whining :(
13:31<@planetmaker>MNIM, and what's the gain?
13:31<@planetmaker>I guess I might w(h)ine :-P
13:31<Rubidium>planetmaker: not releasing something with known crasher bugs
13:31<@planetmaker>we don't support 10.6 officially anyway ;-)
13:32<Rubidium>yeah, lets start closing everything that's using an unsupported version
13:32<@planetmaker>:-D
13:33<MNIM>stop putting up the osx release next to the other releases on the main site but hide them in the forum below a big post about how you should not be posting bug reports about it.
13:33<@planetmaker>not helpful, MNIM
13:34<Rubidium>MNIM: then you'll have (almost) daily posts all over the forum where to find it
13:35-!-HerzogDeXtEr1 [~Flex@i59F6CD13.versanet.de] has joined #openttd
13:35<Rubidium>for some reason I've got the feeling that a significant (or at least very vocal) part of OSX users are worse at using the search than others
13:36<MNIM>give it a splash screen on startup with a scrollable text with an ok button at the bottom
13:36<Rubidium>MNIM: great idea... just code and test it please
13:36*planetmaker would also put that into a special release for MNIM
13:36<MNIM>D:
13:36<MNIM>coding scares me.
13:36<FLHerne>Have you considered supporting Mac OS 7? :P
13:36<@planetmaker>FLHerne, yes
13:37<Rhamphoryncus>Change the download patch to be a warning first. "We don't have any active maintainers for OSX. Don't bother posting bugs unless you're volunteering to fix them.
13:37<@planetmaker>But I decided it's more work than OSX 10.7 ;-)
13:37<@planetmaker>Rhamphoryncus, also that's not helpful
13:37<Eddi|zuHause>"Former vice president Dick Cheney cancelled an appearance in Toronto for fear of 'violent protests'"
13:37<@planetmaker>Knowing about the bugs IS helpful
13:37<evdvelde>oh one more thing... you dont get a pop up when a town gives a subsidy, do you?
13:37<Rhamphoryncus>I can't tell which comments are serious and which aren't :)
13:38<Rubidium>problem is that NOBODY cared about fixing Mac OS X for the last half year, besides fixing compile errors on the compile farm
13:38*planetmaker feels guilty
13:38<FLHerne>planetmaker - Yes, but I have 7.6 and not 10.7. Therefore you must support 7.6 first :D
13:38<evdvelde>planetmaker: who cares about osx anyway, right? ;)
13:38<MNIM>evdvelde: depends on your message settings, but it should in default, as far as Im aware.
13:38<Rubidium>and then there was a slight spur of trying to get it to somewhat not crash/fail immediately on 10.7, and then again a long void of nothingness
13:38<@planetmaker>evdvelde, let's say: I'd not play the game if it were not available thereon ;-)
13:39<@planetmaker>nor would I be here right now
13:39<@planetmaker>It still has a lot of deprecation warnings if linked directly to 10.7, too
13:40<Rhamphoryncus>planetmaker: sounds like a toned down message at the download screen WOULD be helpful. Put the emphasis on wanting a volunteer to maintain it, rather than discouraging bugs.
13:40<Rubidium>that is: working on OSX: sept 2011, dec 2010
13:40<evdvelde>planetmaker: woops :)
13:40<Rhamphoryncus>Which serves to advertise the need to everybody that wants to use it on OSX
13:41<Rubidium>and there's a message on the front page for a very long time asking for help with OSX... result: nothing
13:41<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: you can safely ignore deprecation warnings.
13:41<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: until 10.8 :p
13:41<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause, yes and no. ^^
13:41-!-HerzogDeXtEr [~Flex@88.130.161.248] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
13:41<@planetmaker>that's the whole point
13:42<@planetmaker>and obviously the full screen stuff works quite differently on 10.7. Thus... doesn't quite work in its current implementation
13:42<@planetmaker>it's yet another completely new API for that
13:42<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: but that will have a gpl-incompatible app-store and only allow signed programs, so there's no need to "support" it anyomre :p
13:43<@planetmaker>that indeed might be true
13:43-!-Firartix [~artixds@147.215.81.100] has joined #openttd
13:44<Rubidium>so is that the third or fourth different video backend API in 4 releases?
13:44<@planetmaker>my main issue with fixing stuff is that it depends so incredibly much on the hardware. Many bugs happen on some but not on others...
13:44<@planetmaker>That's something I don't quite know how to test
13:44-!-supermop [~daniel_er@rrcs-72-43-171-87.nyc.biz.rr.com] has joined #openttd
13:45<Rubidium>which basically means that OSX does not abstract hardware properly
13:45<Rubidium>or that their drivers simply suck
13:45<Eddi|zuHause>yay for the benefit of reduced types of hardware for osx systems
13:45-!-|Jeroen| [~jeroen@d5152B25B.access.telenet.be] has joined #openttd
13:46<@planetmaker>They do... I have other programmes which crash somewhere deep in CoreAudio...
13:46<Eddi|zuHause>they basically missed 20 years of hardware abstraction layers
13:47<Eddi|zuHause>oh i miss the days when the first thing you did when installing a game was searching the setup for your graphics and sound card :p
13:48<MNIM>I used to have a book for one old windows 3.11 PC that served that purpose, I think :P
13:49<@planetmaker>in any case, my decision kinda is to spend time on trying to improve the base graphics or the mac port
13:49<@planetmaker>tbh, I have and had the feeling that last year my time was better spent on the base graphics
13:50<@planetmaker>thus that's what I mostly did
13:51<@planetmaker>it also feels more rewarding. As at least a few people care. But indeed non about the macport
13:52<@planetmaker>which always only incurs negative feedback.
13:52<@planetmaker>Which is bad karma
13:53<Eddi|zuHause>i don't think you mean karma
13:53<@planetmaker>oh, I did. Though it doesn't fit ;-)
13:56<Rubidium>the OSX port has always been plagued with issues
13:57<Rubidium>not sure what the actual cause is
13:57<Rubidium>though given the number of i* apps, there should be plenty of developers familiar with OSX
13:58<Rubidium>and Macs used to be for hippies, just like open source people are somewhat hippie-ish as well
13:58<Rubidium>so where is the mismatch?
13:59-!-frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590f441b.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd
13:59-!-evdvelde [~evdvelde@143.129.80.37] has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!]
13:59<Rubidium>or is developing on OSX such a drama that you only do it once you get paid?
14:00<@planetmaker>I don't have the feeling that it is more of a drama than other OS' device SDKs
14:01<@planetmaker>One of the issues here indeed seems to be that the underlying foundations change at a much faster pace than on windoze and linux
14:01<@planetmaker>Thus you'll have to rewrite part of the OS layer each year
14:01<@planetmaker>None of that is necessary in this extend for linux and windows
14:01<andythenorth>same reason I'm not developing children's games to sell on iOS :P
14:02<@planetmaker>Thus, of course, the amount of bugs due to these changes increases at least proportionally
14:02<andythenorth>apple will shaft you at no warning
14:03<Rubidium>it's disruptive for no real reason
14:03<@planetmaker>there's an incredible amount of #if OSX_VERSION_AT_LEAST(a,b,c) ... #endif
14:03<+glx>planetmaker: on windows you can still use win9x way for most things
14:03<@planetmaker>exactly
14:04<@planetmaker>while the 10.3 framework is inaccessible to at least 50% in 10.7
14:04<SpComb>ifdef is your friend
14:04<SpComb>couldn't you just shift off all the compatibility issues to SDL or something?
14:04<andythenorth>hmm
14:04<@planetmaker>yes. If the SDL port on OSX wouldn't have its own very bad issues
14:04<Rubidium>SpComb: SDL fails majorly on OSX
14:05-!-|Jeroen| [~jeroen@d5152B25B.access.telenet.be] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
14:05<@planetmaker>yes, you can compile an SDL version on OSX
14:05<@planetmaker>It works... to some extent
14:05<@planetmaker>Rubidium, it actually *might* have gotten a bit better, though I didn't test properly
14:05-!-lmergen [~lmergen@5352EA70.cm-6-3d.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has joined #openttd
14:05<Rubidium>as long as you like not using palettes IIRC
14:06<Rubidium>and IIRC it was significantly slower as well
14:06<@planetmaker>that indeed
14:06<@planetmaker>which also is the reason on windows to use GDI
14:07*andythenorth doesn't have AI crash on 10.6.8
14:07-!-flaa_ [~flaa@89.101.93.77] has joined #openttd
14:07<@planetmaker>yeah... it's another of those "it crashes" (but I don't tell you how nor provide more info) reports
14:08<andythenorth>I read the crash log, means nothing to me
14:08<@planetmaker>oh, he posted one?
14:08<andythenorth>yup
14:08<Rubidium>useless...
14:08<@planetmaker>yes
14:08<Rubidium>you've been thrown under the bus
14:09<@planetmaker>sounds like invalid read somewhere...
14:09*andythenorth never has any OS X issues
14:09<andythenorth>which is bully for me
14:09<andythenorth>:P
14:09<andythenorth>you can guess I'd mention it if I did :P
14:10<andythenorth>I didn't test with 1.1.5 stable though
14:10<Rubidium>looks like 4689
14:10-!-Alberth [~hat3@a82-95-164-127.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #openttd
14:10-!-mode/#openttd [+o Alberth] by ChanServ
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14:10<@Alberth>efenink
14:11<@planetmaker>good point, Rubidium
14:11<@planetmaker>hello Alberth
14:11<Rubidium>having said that, it might be something *completly* else
14:13<andythenorth>oh yeah, I can replicate 4689 btw ;)
14:13*andythenorth never uses full screen mode, totally slows down development :P
14:14-!-cypher [~Miranda@ip-86-49-67-4.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd
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14:18<andythenorth>Alberth: http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/pixa/repository ;)
14:21<@planetmaker>andythenorth, indeed. And even then... it makes switching to other things sooo tedious.
14:21<@planetmaker>And even when I play. Then all other com channels would be blocked.
14:21<@planetmaker>which'd be bad, too
14:21<andythenorth>is it acceptable to lock out features on some platforms?
14:22<@planetmaker>it's done...
14:22<@planetmaker>but not nice
14:22<andythenorth>not productive long term either
14:22<@planetmaker>yep
14:22<andythenorth>just incurring variation which incurs support and technical debt
14:22<andythenorth>variation => bad
14:23<andythenorth>but crashes => bad
14:24<@Terkhen>hello
14:24<andythenorth>o/
14:26*Rubidium is sad that base graphics downloading is not working for OSX
14:26<andythenorth>that is sad
14:27<Rubidium>as OSX is the only platform for which the prefered way of installing does not provide graphics
14:27<andythenorth>I could try to fix these things, but I'd be so out of my depth...
14:27<andythenorth>it would become 'other people code, andy types it into his mac'
14:27<Rubidium>although... OpenTTD installation on OSX isn't done by the prefered way anyhow
14:28<@planetmaker>what's the preferred way?
14:28<Rubidium>double click on dmg I'd say
14:28<andythenorth>hg clone, make run -j13 :P
14:28<Rubidium>instead of unzipping some file and then doing something with it
14:29<@planetmaker>I'd say the 'preferred' way is to download something, click it, get a window which tells you to drag something inside it to the Application folder. And then be done
14:29<andythenorth>how much is a used mac anyway?
14:29<Rubidium>too many sanity points for me
14:30<Rubidium>50 euros
14:30<@planetmaker>well. Either people hate mac. Or they love it. Usually. There's only very few who are not emotional there
14:30<Rubidium>with OS 6
14:30-!-Twofish [~Twofish@77-95-76-210.bb.cust.hknett.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
14:31<andythenorth>the answer is 'way too much' :P
14:31<andythenorth>I'm selling this mac and getting a new one if ebay is any guide
14:31<andythenorth>I lose £200 on it
14:32<Rubidium>a G5 still costs 250 euro?
14:32<andythenorth>dunno
14:32<andythenorth>we've got a dual G5 in our office somewhere, and some flat panel imacs
14:33<FLHerne>They're quite expensive. I was thinking of buying one, but I don't have the money
14:33<andythenorth>sell mine for £950, buy the newest for £1150 :P
14:34<andythenorth>but will it run ottd faster? :P
14:34<Rhamphoryncus>andythenorth: fullscreen mode is broken for me. If I drag the map the mouse hits the edge and stops
14:34<Rubidium>Rhamphoryncus: which bug is that on the tracker?
14:35<@Alberth>andythenorth: lol, the license file is bigger than the source code :p
14:35<Rhamphoryncus>boo :)
14:35<andythenorth>Alberth: :)
14:35<andythenorth>Rhamphoryncus: I can't replicate that
14:35<Rhamphoryncus>I'll report it after I've finished writing up my current patch. It's much more interesting *g*
14:36<andythenorth>although it did screw with my crazy 'adjust monitor to room light settings' app
14:36<andythenorth>my screen is now totally orange
14:36-!-lmergen [~lmergen@5352EA70.cm-6-3d.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
14:37<Rhamphoryncus>heh
14:37<andythenorth>Alberth: pixa would benefit from bettter layout, possibly splitting code (might be overkill), and....I need to document it :|
14:38<andythenorth>but otherwise I met all the use cases I had
14:38<andythenorth>biab
14:38<andythenorth>bath time
14:38-!-andythenorth [~Andy@cpc23-aztw25-2-0-cust33.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: andythenorth]
14:39-!-cl8 [~cl8@host-92-3-253-43.as43234.net] has joined #openttd
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14:42<@Alberth>that's quick :p
14:44<andythenorth>he's refusing to clean his teeth unless I make choo choos in ottd
14:44<andythenorth>this is not good
14:45<Eddi|zuHause>that is probably your own fault :p
14:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: translators * r24027 /trunk/src/lang/ (croatian.txt czech.txt latvian.txt ukrainian.txt):
14:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
14:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: croatian - 10 changes by VoyagerOne
14:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: czech - 1 changes by Eskymak
14:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: latvian - 4 changes by Parastais
14:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: ukrainian - 1 changes by edd_k
14:45<Rhamphoryncus>There we go. Be happy it's not animated :D http://bugs.openttd.org/task/5101/getfile/8220/Skyscrapist%20inc.,%202316-12-02.png
14:45*NGC3982 feels alone in ursa major
14:45*NGC3982 asks planetmaker to make a new system.
14:48<@Alberth>andythenorth: some examples and/or a regression test would be useful too :)
14:48<Rhamphoryncus>Rubidium, andythenorth: wtf, I just tried scrolling in fullscreen and it worked fine. :P Did that code get any attention in the last month or so?
14:48<andythenorth>Alberth: +1
14:48<andythenorth>hmm
14:48<andythenorth>he's learnt to say 'plane'
14:49<andythenorth>my pixa time is limited now, I had two weeks holiday, but now I have to work 9am-10pm daily
14:49<Rhamphoryncus>13 hours? :O
14:50<@Alberth>that's a bad trade :(
14:50<andythenorth>I have ~4 hours off in the middle to do kid stuff
14:50<andythenorth>could be worse
14:50<andythenorth>but not much python coding time :(
14:50<Eddi|zuHause>you should work 9pm-10pm
14:50<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: that is a nice idea :)
14:51<Rhamphoryncus>ahhh, 9 hours with a 4 hour break in the middle
14:51<@Alberth>Eddi|zuHause: we'd all like that :)
14:51*NGC3982 sings a shakespearian tune on being a lony spiral galaxy.
14:51<Eddi|zuHause>9h is still quite a long working day
14:51<@Alberth>Rhamphoryncus: 13 with break == 9 hours without
14:51<Rhamphoryncus>Alberth: I believe I said that ;)
14:52<Eddi|zuHause>from the "average" job i'd expect 7h + 1h break
14:52<@Alberth>Rhamphoryncus: I read it otherwise :)
14:52<Eddi|zuHause>Rhamphoryncus: your statement was ambiguous
14:52*Rhamphoryncus throws peanuts
14:53*Belugas reaches out from the depths and snaps on the peanuts
14:53*Rhamphoryncus also straps Eddi in front of his seizure inducer
14:53<Eddi|zuHause>what's a Rama-Forunkel anyway?
14:53<@Alberth>Belugas: be quick, or andy's kid eats them all
14:54<Rhamphoryncus>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhamphorhynchus
14:54<@Belugas>:)
14:54<@Belugas>hi sir Alberth :)
14:55<Rhamphoryncus>Belugas: you only need to get the ones that land high up. Kids are quite happy to eat peanuts off the floor and behind the couch.
14:55<@Belugas>urgh... mine takes them from the bag only...
14:55<@Belugas>and gives me those from the floor
14:55<Rhamphoryncus>lol
14:58*andythenorth has been learning just how much previously chewed food he will eat
14:58<andythenorth>> a bit
14:59<andythenorth>< all
14:59<andythenorth>cheese is definitely acceptable, and chocolate, and melon
15:00<Eddi|zuHause>not a thought i typically have...
15:02-!-LordPixaII [~pixa@79-68-108-222.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has joined #openttd
15:04<andythenorth>you have cats? passably close...
15:06-!-Noldo [vheino@jumi.lut.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
15:07-!-Pixa [~pixa@85.210.72.125] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
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15:37<Rhamphoryncus>As opposed to dogs who'll eat anything
15:39<@Alberth>andythenorth: PixaImageLoader self.mask does not seem used
15:40<andythenorth>I thought BANDIT used it :o
15:41<@Alberth>neither is self.origin
15:41<andythenorth>L75 in flat_trailer.py
15:41<andythenorth>(for mask)
15:42<andythenorth>I have an odd pattern where I 'parent' an options object to the PixaImageLoader obj
15:42<andythenorth>I'm sure there's a better way, it was duck tape
15:44<@Alberth>that's setting it; I was talking about use :p pixa.py line 254 self.mask = mask is the only place where self.mask is mentioned
15:44-!-KritiK [~Maxim@89-178-122-215.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #openttd
15:44<andythenorth>possibly I did bad :o
15:45<@Alberth>test whether make_points gets new values for mask & origin?
15:46<andythenorth>I'll have to add this to my TODO :)
15:46*Alberth fixes it :)
15:46<andythenorth>thanks
15:46<andythenorth>you should see the worse thing I did :)
15:47<andythenorth>this makes a dep list out of nfo
15:47<andythenorth>http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/1220/
15:47<andythenorth>it's insanely faster than nmlc for the same task
15:48<andythenorth>I figured wrt generating png filenames, the grf should just encode what it expects to see, then I parse that
15:48<@Alberth>len(line.split('.png')) <-- '.png' in line ?
15:48<andythenorth>yup
15:48<andythenorth>the first time the grf tries to compile, it explodes due to missing pngs :)
15:48<@Alberth>oh, '> 1' is missing
15:48<andythenorth>that code is so dirty I'm proud
15:48<andythenorth>and it works...
15:50<@Alberth>I never got why you'd check for deps at all
15:51<@Alberth>you know that graphics_results is always empty, right?
15:52<@Alberth>ie line 22 is a 'pass' :)
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16:01*Rhamphoryncus grimaces at ViewportSign::MarkDirty
16:02<Rhamphoryncus>When tracing through a bug you really hate to find out it was justified :(
16:03<andythenorth>Alberth: yeah, I ran into some issues with L22
16:03<andythenorth>none of my nfo has pngs with 'cargo' in the name yet, so I stopped writing the script ;)
16:06*Alberth deletes _PixaImageLoaderOptions
16:07<andythenorth>no need for that class?
16:07<@Alberth> http://devs.openttd.org/~alberth/doc_pizza1.patch
16:07<andythenorth>I found I got more done when I stopped worrying so much about doing it right :)
16:07-!-kkb110 [~kkb110@cpe-69-203-124-125.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
16:07<@Alberth>not any more, I think
16:07<andythenorth>I'll just apply the patch...and run the tests
16:08<andythenorth>oh, no test :(
16:08<@Alberth>yep :p
16:09<@Alberth>I also ran all tests. They passed trivially ;)
16:09<andythenorth>well BANDIT built it
16:10<andythenorth>appears to work ;)
16:15<@Alberth>basically, my two added if x is None: x = self.x do the same as the class :)
16:17<@Alberth>euhm, that should be 3 cases, the crop_box should be there too
16:17<@Alberth>phew, it is :)
16:19<andythenorth>:)
16:20<andythenorth>r14 http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/pixa/repository
16:23<@Alberth>hg qnew r14.patch :p
16:25<frosch123>"soon" has an interesting meaning on the internet
16:31<@Alberth>you could write a thesis on it :)
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16:34<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: i create the .png deps in my generator script, i.e. _before_ creating the nml
16:35<andythenorth>output them from there then :)
16:35<Eddi|zuHause>yes
16:35<andythenorth>I can't quite do that, I'm writing them directly into nml with my template module
16:35<Eddi|zuHause>i did that months ago
16:36-!-kkb110 [~kkb110@NYUFGA-WLESSAUTHCLIENTS-01.NATPOOL.NYU.EDU] has joined #openttd
16:36<Eddi|zuHause>i could try to load nmlc as a module and push the parse tree into it, instead of writing the nml
16:37<Eddi|zuHause>or i could write out NFO :p
16:37<andythenorth>ugh
16:37<Eddi|zuHause>nmlc spends 70 seconds just parsing the cets.nml file
16:38<andythenorth>do you have many redundant lines of code, e.g. switches not called or such?
16:38<Eddi|zuHause>no
16:41<frosch123>andythenorth: it's generated, of course it is 99% redundant
16:42<frosch123>try to compress it, and look how small it becomes :p
16:43<Eddi|zuHause>something around the size of the generator, i presume :p
16:46<Eddi|zuHause>gzip makes it from 12.5MB to 0.5MB
16:47<frosch123>only factor 25. hmm, that is less redundant than i expected
16:47<Eddi|zuHause>looked at the wrong line, 8.3MB
16:47<frosch123>12.5->8.3 or 8.3->0.5? :p
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16:59<Eddi|zuHause>8.3->0.5
16:59<Eddi|zuHause>xz makes it 0.25
17:01<Eddi|zuHause>we have 83kB in .py files and 200kB in .pnml files
17:01<Eddi|zuHause>the table is 164kB
17:01<frosch123>:)
17:01<Eddi|zuHause>so my initial guess of "roughly the size of the generator" hold
17:02<Eddi|zuHause>no wait, misread again, 20kB in .pnml files
17:03<Eddi|zuHause>overall something around 3.5kloc
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18:31*Pikka greebling the A-Train :D
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18:34*andythenorth trying to reduce 286 outstanding tickets to <200 then go to bed :P
18:34<andythenorth>I don't actually have to code for them, just move them around :P
18:34<Pikka>good luck bob :D
18:35<andythenorth>203
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18:39<frosch123>night
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18:39<andythenorth>199
18:39<andythenorth>bed time
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19:10<@Terkhen>good night
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---Logclosed Wed Mar 14 00:00:51 2012