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#openttd IRC Logs for 2012-03-14

---Logopened Wed Mar 14 00:00:51 2012
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00:11<arakasii>good morning. anyone have a moment to test my server connection. ive setup port forwarding but apparently it still shows offline when my brother tries to connect
00:12<arakasii>wondering if its still something ive done or problem his end
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02:21<Pikka> it works! :D
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03:49<andythenorth>Pikka: shiny
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03:57<@planetmaker>results look MUCH better, Pikka :-)
03:57<@planetmaker>as you're here, I can also ask here: how did you achieve the result?
03:58<@planetmaker>(did I ever mention that I like very much the transparent view of TAI for its great clarity?)
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03:59<@planetmaker>no newgrf gives a better overview to a tycoon and help where to build new connections
03:59<Pikka>planetmaker: it builds a house which it then immediately removes
03:59<@planetmaker>ok :-)
03:59<Pikka>I had my doubts that it would work, but it seems to
04:00<SpComb>Chris Sawyer needs to do a kickstarter pledge for TTD2..
04:00<SpComb>oh, no, wait..
04:00<@planetmaker>how do you unbuild it?
04:00<@planetmaker>technically speaking?
04:00<Pikka>callback 21
04:01<Pikka>it's not a /perfect/ solution, because there's a chance you could bump into one of the non-houses (which for TaI will look like rough ground sprites) while building, for the <256 ticks of the house's existence. but it's unlikely to happen often in practice.
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04:03<@planetmaker>yeah. You could use a special ground sprite for it though which features some <whatever>... maybe some advertisement or so
04:04<@planetmaker>thus the kind of transitional things which appear in outskirts sometimes
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04:04<Pikka>possibly, although I think drawing attention to them might just make things more confusing for players.
04:05<@planetmaker>maybe. 256 ticks is just short of 4 days...
04:05<Pikka>I'll see how things go once I get it into the set and people can play with it.
04:05<Pikka>but that's the maximum period they'll live for, I think. It can be shorter.
04:05<@planetmaker>that's how I understand it, yes
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04:11<@planetmaker>Now all it needs is a prominent warning in the readme "Do not use this NewGRF with town growth scripts" so that we all can say "rtfm you dork!" :-P
04:11<Pikka>well, I don't know how much a town growth script would hurt
04:12<Pikka>plenty of people use it at the same time as other house newgrfs, which totally defeats the growth limit thing. :P
04:12<@planetmaker>it would not hurt. But it'll be two things trying the same thing with different limits and conditions
04:12<@planetmaker>thus people will complain that the script doesn't work as intended
04:13<@planetmaker>reports you most likely won't get but the script writer
04:13<Pikka>although is anyone ever going to make such a script? :)
04:13<@planetmaker>they do exist already. More than one. On bananas
04:14<@planetmaker>basically 75% of the game scripts are town growth scripts so far
04:14<Pikka>speaking of bananas, it would be good if I could update my grfs :)
04:14<@planetmaker>did you try again?
04:14<Pikka>yep, today
04:14<@planetmaker>with what error?
04:15<Pikka>same as last time, unknown error uploading or something along those lines.
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04:16<@planetmaker>can you send me one of the grfs you tried? I don't have time to look now. I have a suspicion that it's something with the bananans DB and I might look later or ask Rb
04:16<@planetmaker>but a more exact error would be helpful ;-)
04:18<@planetmaker>ok, thx. So that zip could go there in its entirety as posted there, yes?
04:18<Pikka>that is the zip I was trying to upload
04:18<Pikka>btw, "required version" on bananas still only goes up to 1.1.3 :)
04:19<@planetmaker>stupid ;-)
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04:22<Pikka>no scrubblecars
04:22<Scuddles>pikka is a butt
04:23<Pikka>go and play your bad game
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05:53<Pikka>where's roadtypes, then?
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08:59<evdvelde>hi all, question of the day :)
08:59<evdvelde>i seem unable to fund buildings or build statues, any clues?
09:00<Mark>not enough cash?
09:00<Pikka>I believe you have to have a high enough rating in the town and/or the town needs to be a certain size before you get those options.
09:01<evdvelde>ah ok thanks Pikka
09:02<evdvelde>Mark: i have enough and see other options i cannot pay atm, but thanks too :)
09:05<andythenorth>Pikka: did you find roadtypes anywhere?
09:05<Pikka>nope :[
09:05<andythenorth>non moi aussi
09:06<andythenorth>allemagne dix points
09:06<Pikka>it's a little bit sad working on 19th century towns and industries, but not being able to do anything about those bitumen roads
09:07<Pikka>atsa lotta points'
09:08<Eddi|zuHause>by my experience, that almost never happens
09:08<Eddi|zuHause>it's either 12 or no points
09:10<andythenorth>Pikka: how's your c++ ? :P
09:10<andythenorth>I have a roadtypes repo :|
09:10<Pikka>poor to average :P
09:10<andythenorth>better than mine
09:11<andythenorth>it's not just the C++, it's knowing the game structure 'and now you need to do xyz'
09:11<Eddi|zuHause><andythenorth> I have a roadtypes repo :| <-- how many steps is that above "i have a thread in the suggestions forum"? :p
09:11<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: 1.15
09:11<andythenorth>I think I have a commit to flip map bits :P
09:12<andythenorth>I could learn more, but then I become a slow (bad) game dev, instead of a reasonably quick (moderately adequate) newgrf dev
09:13<Pikka>are "roadtypes" and "tramtypes" two separate things?
09:13<andythenorth>technically? or for the player?
09:14<Eddi|zuHause>Pikka: that was kinda undecided
09:14<andythenorth>there are (iirc) three built-in roadtypes currently: road, tram, hway
09:14<andythenorth>in a roadtypes spec, 'tram' is a subset of roadtypes
09:14<andythenorth>it's a flag, and is drawn on top of any road surface
09:15<Eddi|zuHause>Pikka: there were two philosophies, one philosophy where a tile should have one road-like type, and one tram-like type, and one philosophy where they should be exchangable
09:15<andythenorth>you only get two kinds of route per tile iirc
09:15<Pikka>yep, tricky :)
09:16<Eddi|zuHause>Pikka: and one (more or less strong) opinion that there should be 3 independent road types per tile (which raises a "not enough map bits" issue)
09:16<andythenorth>fwiw, there was a lot of discussion, not entirely a lot of agreement, and the result I had was this:
09:17<andythenorth>if you want 'road with tramway' that's a single type
09:18<Pikka>that's probably actually a better way to do it
09:19<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: but then you need crossings between "road with tram" and "road without tram"
09:19<andythenorth>I didn't say it was good
09:19<Eddi|zuHause>so essentially you get the same problems, but you wasted one roadtype
09:19*andythenorth shrug :)
09:19<andythenorth>the alternatives weren't better
09:19<andythenorth>extend the map array?
09:21<Eddi|zuHause>entirely unrelated:
09:22<andythenorth>Pikka: v0.2.0 \o/
09:22<andythenorth>cement tank?
09:22<Pikka>haven't put in anything that wasn't already coded yet. but sure, I can get that in...
09:23<andythenorth>what else did I do?
09:23*andythenorth has no brain
09:23<Pikka>if you dropped the second roadtype, are there enough bits for each quadrant of the tile to have a different roadtype? :)
09:30<Pikka>if the number of possible roadtypes is reduced to 15, then we could get away with replacing the "4 bits for type" and "4 road bits" with 4*4 bits for the road type in each quadrant of the tile (or 0/F for none). Or keep the "road bits" too and have 16 road types.
09:32<Pikka>anyway, it's late and I should go to bed :)
09:36<Rhamphoryncus>Track types are stored separately?
09:36<Eddi|zuHause>Rhamphoryncus: there is only one tracktype per tile
09:37<Eddi|zuHause>Pikka, andythenorth: the whole discussion might be meaningless, if michi_cc's map-layering stuff makes it to trunk
09:37<Rhamphoryncus>Yeah, but's a related bit of data. Might be some good options.
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09:38<Rhamphoryncus>What's that? Google isn't telling me
09:38<Eddi|zuHause>then each MP_ROAD "tile" would only have one roadtype, but you could layer multiple MP_ROAD "tiles" over each other
09:39<Rhamphoryncus>Hum. Does that create a new layer on the map for each type loaded? Or is it for bridges/tunnels?
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09:40<Eddi|zuHause>it allows things like this
09:41<Eddi|zuHause>potentially also custom bridgeheads and signals on bridges, but it's way deeper fundamentals
09:41*Rhamphoryncus nods
09:43<Rhamphoryncus>If that covers both road and rail I wonder if it could be used for different traffic patterns too, ie curved tracks
09:44<Eddi|zuHause>nothing to do with that
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09:49<+michi_cc>Rhamphoryncus: Curved tracks isn't complicated, you only have to deal with a mild combinatorial explosion :)
09:50<Rhamphoryncus>Yeah, that's why I'm asking :)
09:50<Rhamphoryncus>It's nothing magical. Just more of the same we already do
09:51<Eddi|zuHause>and you have to draw them :p
09:51<Rhamphoryncus>that too
09:51<Eddi|zuHause>they don't even need map bits
09:51<Rhamphoryncus>but on that note I'm volunteering to make a newgrf. It'll be hideous, but I'll make it. :)
09:51<Eddi|zuHause>only some variables exposed to newgrf
09:53<Rhamphoryncus>Hmm. If I actually put together a set of graphics would that help much in getting the code changed?
09:54<@planetmaker><andythenorth> there are (iirc) three built-in roadtypes currently: road, tram, hway <-- there's no highway anymore
09:55<Rhamphoryncus>No hard proposal on curve radiuses that I should conform to/argue with?
09:55<+michi_cc>The biggest problem for curved tracks is to decide on a good schema how to provide the track graphics. E.g. should all tracks on a tile be drawn as one sprite or composited like they are now?
09:56<@planetmaker>some visible work generally helps getting a good discussion started :-)
09:56<+michi_cc>Or is it easier for NewGRFs if the adjacent track bits are realtive to what is drawn or absolute.
09:56*Rhamphoryncus nods
09:56<Rhamphoryncus>What about diagonal roads? :)
09:56*planetmaker prefers the combinatorical approach. For no good reasons
09:57<Eddi|zuHause>Rhamphoryncus: need movement pattern, entirely different issue.
09:57<Rhamphoryncus>Or curved for that matter
09:57<@planetmaker>Rhamphoryncus, I have curves in my roads ;-)
09:57<Eddi|zuHause> <-- design documents about the rail images needed
09:58<+michi_cc>planetmaker: Personally I don't think that would look good because for a switch the sleepers of the top-drawn track might hide a lot of the bottom track.
09:58<@planetmaker>that's the problem with that approach. Or can be
09:58<Eddi|zuHause>basically, you need 6 sprites per rail bit, "straight", "left curve" and "right curve", each in an "a" (from corner of tile to center) and "b" (from center to other corner of tile) variant
09:59<Eddi|zuHause>michi_cc: maybe sleepers and rail need to be split in two layers
09:59<+michi_cc>If you do whole tile at once you can avoide the overlap by doing fancy compositing on built time (where you can have more layers than just track and balast).
09:59<Rhamphoryncus>I want multiple radiuses, so you can have both wide sweeping and tight
10:00<Eddi|zuHause>Rhamphoryncus: not feasible on a per-tile basis
10:00<+michi_cc>Rhamphoryncus: You get track bits of adjacent tiles, nothing more.
10:00<Rhamphoryncus>Then we shall see what I can come up with *g*
10:01<Eddi|zuHause>Rhamphoryncus: important design constraint: in the center of the tile, all rail bits must be at the exact same position, to allow arbitrary combinations of "a" and "b" sections
10:02<Rhamphoryncus>Yeah, alignment will be my first task
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10:02<Rhamphoryncus>I may not go with fully arbitrary. We'll see.
10:03<Eddi|zuHause>Rhamphoryncus: the combination would be done automatically. you only have to provide the sprites for the 6 half-bits
10:03<Eddi|zuHause>for each of the 6 track directions
10:03<Eddi|zuHause>so 36 sprites
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10:06<Rhamphoryncus>That sounds too easy and boring. I'm going for insane, pie-in-the-sky :)
10:06<Rhamphoryncus>I never said they'd be GOOD sprites, so I need to do something meaningful, heh
10:06<Eddi|zuHause>"meaningful" is "fits in our concept"
10:06<Eddi|zuHause>everything else is basically useless
10:07<+michi_cc>Eddi|zuHause: Automatically for you means by OTTD or by some build process? I wouldn't like to do it in OTTD because it would directly limit what's possible.
10:07<Rhamphoryncus>I did ask if there was a hard proposal
10:07<Eddi|zuHause>michi_cc: i meant the build process
10:08<Eddi|zuHause>Rhamphoryncus: and i did tell you my proposal
10:08<Rhamphoryncus>If any suggestions I make will be ignored unless they fit exactly what you want then there's no point in me working on it
10:08<Eddi|zuHause>Rhamphoryncus: that's not what i said
10:09<Rhamphoryncus>It sounds like your "curved" is just a graphical tweak over what we have now
10:09<Rhamphoryncus>That's not what I'm interested in
10:10<Eddi|zuHause>(imho) everything "bigger" will likely not be included, as it is a too large "step"
10:10<+michi_cc>Rhamphoryncus: The proposal by Eddi is based on what is possible to implement. "Real" arbitrary curved tracks means not only rewriting how rail is stored on the map but also rewriting all of the vehicle movement code.
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10:10<Eddi|zuHause>there is, however, another thing i have been proposing: "traffic objects"
10:10<@planetmaker>anything bigger has very quickly the issue of backward compatibility for train sets
10:11<@planetmaker>as it will look awkward without further viewing angles for vehicles
10:11<Eddi|zuHause>which means it's like a NewObject (i.e. multi-tile), but has a state-machine (airport-like)
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10:11<Eddi|zuHause>thus you may lead a vehicle on arbitrary paths through this object
10:12<Eddi|zuHause>but that's rather a "far future" thing
10:12<Eddi|zuHause>as nobody has figured out yet how to generalize airport-like state machines for (articulated) vehicles
10:12<Rhamphoryncus>Well, wait and see if I can come up with a decent alignment, alright? That's not too insane to store
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10:16<Rhamphoryncus>I'll code it
10:17<Rhamphoryncus>And yes, not having enough rotation sprites for vehicles will be ugly, but IMO it's already ugly. Nothing will be lost.
10:18<Rhamphoryncus>If you actually look at how trains go around corners they do this odd jumpy thing
10:20<Eddi|zuHause>i meant:
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10:22<Rhamphoryncus>So some work has already been done. Nice.
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10:26<V453000>I think the way how cets does it looks great, but it is just so much more to draw than original :z
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11:20<NGC3982>how ..does that work without signals?
11:20*NGC3982 i still new to the more advanced pbs.
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12:56*andythenorth ponders
12:57<andythenorth>place a bet: disappearance of BROS forum....fuckup or flouncing drama?
12:58<Doorslammer>Whatever it is, it's a bloody facepalm yet again
12:58<@planetmaker>and then they say that history doesn't repeat itself :-)
12:58<Eddi|zuHause>who said that? :p
12:59<@planetmaker>I'm also sure one could make a good monty python sketch out of it meanwhile
12:59<andythenorth>doorslammer...never work with brits. disorganised, crappy infrastructure, prone to infighting :P
13:00<Doorslammer>Tell me about it
13:03<Eddi|zuHause>so what now, they spend 90% of the time with discussing their forum, 10% of the time drawing, and 0% coding
13:06<andythenorth>no, they spend 50% of their time responding to me baiting them :P
13:06<andythenorth>I blame the tories personally
13:06<@planetmaker>red herring is a nice thing to do ;-)
13:06<Doorslammer>Although the baiting isn't exactly... helpful, this has been an enormous waste of time for me
13:06<@planetmaker>or not. Depends on view
13:07<@planetmaker>(sorry, was no reply to DS)
13:09<andythenorth>Doorslammer: is your work now lost in some broken forum?
13:11<andythenorth>if so that's very disheartening
13:11<Doorslammer>I have it still, but it's more of the fact that I still don't know if it's a) up to date and b) any good (still plenty of colour errors in it)
13:12<andythenorth>the devzone no help?
13:13<Doorslammer>I never really followed it
13:14<@planetmaker>tt-forums and devzone are a bit more reliable than... seemingly the bros forum
13:14<Doorslammer>What did Oberhumer or WWW use?
13:15<@planetmaker>oberhumer uses devzone
13:15<@planetmaker>www uses gibhub
13:18<Doorslammer>Not that I even knew who we used half the time anyway
13:21<@planetmaker>"who we used" sounds.... like the real issue :-P
13:23<Doorslammer>Well, I spend long periods of time on other projects and things, so something had to be neglected
13:25<andythenorth>it was community managed, you never stood a chance ;)
13:26<andythenorth>it's a synonym for no leadership, no direction
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13:28<andythenorth>there's also this
13:29<Doorslammer>Not authorised to access
13:30<andythenorth>really :o
13:30<andythenorth>oh yes
13:30<andythenorth>how odd
13:31<andythenorth>it's not public
13:31<@planetmaker>err, hm
13:31<andythenorth>planetmaker: does devzone have a policy on private repos?
13:32<andythenorth>repos / projects
13:32<andythenorth>I'd vote for 'not allowed'
13:32<@planetmaker>yes: none
13:32<andythenorth>Doorslammer: try again
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13:32<andythenorth>there's nothing there anyway, no repo
13:32<andythenorth>only one issue
13:32<andythenorth>it's probably dead
13:33<@planetmaker>I think that might be the reason... not remove. But 'hide'. As it never got any real content
13:33<Doorslammer>Didn't even know about that
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13:41<Doorslammer>The thing is, the first time this happened was because there was no GPL, no public access and just as much progress
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13:42<Doorslammer>The difference now is the sprites are covered by GPL and that the project was more accessible
13:43<Doorslammer>So... someone is in rather serious trouble for killing it
13:47<andythenorth>assuming it's not just a billing failure
13:47<Doorslammer>I was under the assumption it was a university site
13:47<oskari89>Can someone code stations, non-track tiles?
13:47<@planetmaker>they can have issues at university computers, too, Doorslammer
13:48<@planetmaker>and... I could basically plug-in my own box here and do there whatever (as long as legal)
13:48<oskari89>Finnish Stations Set needs one..
13:48<@planetmaker>oskari89, 'yes'. someone surely can
13:49<@planetmaker>do you code it and have a specific question about it?
13:49<oskari89>No, i'm not into coding but i have tracking table with sprites and information :P
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13:50<@planetmaker>oskari89, post about it in the tt-forums
13:50<@planetmaker>in the newgrf development section or so
13:50<oskari89>Posted already..
13:52<oskari89>But so far, no-one hasn't replied about coding..
13:53<oskari89>Signals and rails have been coded, but no stations :P
13:55<@planetmaker>those who code stations need to venture into nfo land. And there an island which is special from other features. Thus not many people roam there
13:56<oskari89>I see..
13:58<oskari89>Hmm, can looping sound be implemented on stations?
13:58<@planetmaker>looping as in repetitive?
13:59<oskari89>Non-stopping :P
13:59<@planetmaker>not directly. Sounds are called via callback on certain occasions
14:00<oskari89>It would be nice to have a stations taster, but so far very quiet on that...
14:06<@planetmaker>oskari89, the fastest way probably is: do it yourself
14:06<@planetmaker>with the ISR's code, there's plenty of example code present (provided you also release your set under the GPL)
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14:40<oskari89>I've never coded anything, not even smallest things.
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14:41<oskari89>Just done some modifications at my own set's name, nothing more.
14:42<oskari89>NFO isn't just my thing.
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14:44<oskari89>And the statement "Stations is the hardest thing to code as far as I know!" isn't very motivating.
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14:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: translators * r24028 /trunk/src/lang/ (hungarian.txt latvian.txt):
14:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
14:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: hungarian - 2 changes by Brumi
14:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: latvian - 11 changes by Parastais
14:47<frosch123>yup, not motivating, but maybe challenging :p
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14:47<frosch123>V453000: did you saw that 73129 requested a user name change to 47407 ?
14:48<frosch123>maybe also an idea for you :p
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14:51<andythenorth>my two year old requests a patch: when drag-dynamiting land, explode animation shows on every tile, not just drag-box corners
14:53<TWerkhoven[l]>checkerboard (-ish) could work too
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15:03<@planetmaker>andythenorth, did you notice that explosion graphics differ if you explode one tile or more than one?
15:04<xiong>No no no! It's fine as is. No explosion graphics would be even better. We don't want *more*.
15:06<xiong>If you're dynamiting something it's likely because you want to build something else there. Balls of fire do not help with this; they do not dissipate while paused and take too long to go away when the game is running.
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15:19<Rhamphoryncus>If build-while-paused in enabled they should dissipate, just like construction costs and income do. Patch it. :P
15:22<V453000>frosch123: :D
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15:27<@planetmaker> kyosuke1989 <-- oskari89 is that you? Then you could as well go initially for object tiles for those non-track station parts. It's easier as it can be done in NML
15:28<oskari89>Yes that's me.
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15:28<krinn>hi all
15:29<oskari89>Is there some tutorial for nml object coding?
15:29<krinn>i have a trouble with a vehicle that doesn't answer to AIEngine.IsArticulated and act like one, newgrf can also lie about articulated status ?
15:29<oskari89>NML seems much more simpler than that NFO.
15:29<frosch123>Rhamphoryncus: i think 1.2 even behaves likes that
15:29<@Yexo><krinn> i have a trouble with a vehicle that doesn't answer to AIEngine.IsArticulated and act like one, newgrf can also lie about articulated status ? <- what do you mean exactly?
15:29<@Yexo>how does a vehicle "act like one"?
15:29<Rhamphoryncus>Hrm. I'm not seeing any fireballs
15:30<krinn>the engine answer false, but i cannot use it with "classic" station
15:30<Rhamphoryncus>Yeah, the fireballs show normally but aren't created when paused
15:30<krinn>AIOrder always refuse then
15:30<oskari89>Thx :)
15:30<@Yexo>krinn: talking about a bus/truck?
15:30<@planetmaker>oskari89, there might not be an exact tutorial for objects. But of course there's the ^
15:30<krinn>Yexo, yes
15:31<krinn>wait a sec i'll gave you the message if i try by hands to order it to a station (my ai cannot get that error)
15:31<@planetmaker>and for objects you can find something in ogfx+landscape... though that might be way over the top compared to what you need
15:31<@planetmaker>it works basically the same as industry tiles or airport tiles which you find in FIRS or ogfx+airports repos
15:31<krinn>Yexo, translate from french to english it says "cannot add order, that vehicle cannot goes in that station"
15:32<@planetmaker>or ogfx+industries for that matter
15:32<@Yexo>krinn: which AIOrder function are you using?
15:32<@planetmaker>krinn, bus vs truck?
15:32<@Yexo>and what error message does your AI get?
15:32<krinn>the classic one, but the AI cannot get any error, just it fail, the error message comes from me switching to play as my ai and trying to set the order with the GUI
15:32<@planetmaker>and the station is also bus?
15:32<krinn>ikarus 180
15:32<@Yexo>an AI can always get an error
15:32<krinn>from ikarus set
15:33<krinn>Yexo, no, the ai get the failure, but ERR_NONE
15:33<@Yexo>are you using AppendOrder() ?
15:33<krinn>2s checking how i add them, but must be that
15:34<krinn>if (!AIOrder.AppendOrder(veh, homedepot, AIOrder.AIOF_STOP_IN_DEPOT))
15:34<krinn> { DError("Vehicle refuse goto depot order",2,"cCarrier::VehicleSetDepotOrder"); }
15:34<krinn>Derror display the message + the last error string
15:34<krinn>and the result is boolean = false error=NONE
15:34<@Yexo>are you sure "homedepot" is correct?
15:34<krinn>and that engine bypass my valuate(AIEngine.IsArticulated) keepvalue(0)
15:35<krinn>not refusing depot order
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15:35<krinn>only station order
15:35<krinn>and it's a bus station, not a truck one :)
15:35<krinn>just a classic station, not one "on the road"
15:36<@Yexo>AIOrder.AIOF_STOP_IN_DEPOT <- that does not make sense for a "goto station" order
15:36<krinn>that's why i'm lost, it really answer false to AIEngine.IsArticulated but looks like it is
15:37<krinn>oh sorry Yexo this one a sample of how i set order
15:37<krinn>didn't see first it was for a depot
15:37<krinn>but this one work, setting a depot work, only station are refuse
15:37<@Yexo>and you can manually reproduce the problem? Without any AI I mean?
15:37<@planetmaker>I think you should paste your relevant code. And maybe your testgame
15:37<@planetmaker>this is getting quite confusing
15:37<krinn>when i play as my AI i try by hands setttings order and it says "that vehcile cannot use that station"
15:38<krinn>there's no really a problem with code, just the newgrf and NOAI api
15:38<@Yexo>"ikarus 180" looks like an articulated engine
15:38<krinn>it looks like yes
15:38<krinn>but my query to IsArticlated says false
15:39<krinn>so it isn't remove from my engine list of possible bus to use
15:39<krinn>and so the problem comes
15:39<krinn>it really looks (the grphic) and act like articulated engine
15:39<krinn>but AIEngine.IsArticalted says false
15:40<@Yexo>it's definitely articulated
15:40<krinn>but it says false
15:40<krinn>hence my question: can newgrf also lie to IsArticulated :)
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15:41<krinn>then i found a bug :)
15:41<krinn>because this one lie
15:41<@planetmaker>in your code? :-P
15:41<krinn>no, just create a simple ai if you wish
15:41<krinn>you just have to show result of AIEngine.IsArticulated result you'll see
15:41<@Yexo>there is at least some bug in the openttd code
15:42<@Yexo>CountArticulatedParts will return 0 when no vehicle can be allocated
15:42<@Yexo>which is wrong since it's used in the AI API
15:43<@Yexo>though my guess would be the newgrf might be returning inconsistent information too
15:43<krinn>if you wish test, i have in openttdcoop post an aivehicletest
15:43<krinn>but i can't find the link :)
15:43<krinn>the search engine there is a bit weak
15:44<@Yexo> ?
15:44<@Yexo>google works fine with
15:44<krinn>oh yes
15:44<krinn>that one
15:44<krinn>run it
15:44<krinn>switch to the AI player and edit the X label with Ikarus 180
15:45<krinn>if you have the ikarus set, you'll see the answer for many AI query, and answer for AIEngine.IsArticulated will show a false
15:46<krinn>oh wait i could paste there the result from the console if you wish
15:46<@Yexo>I've run it already
15:46<krinn>it's a simple AI that just query the noai api and display result
15:48<krinn>btw using 1.1.5, i think noai api 1.0
15:52<krinn>(i'm sooooo skill at finding bugs...)
16:09<@Yexo>krinn: as long as the engine is not yet build, it's not articulated
16:09<@Yexo>but any vehicle build from that engine type will be articulated
16:09<@Yexo>it's not strictly a bug in the newgrf (it works according to the spec)
16:10<@Yexo>however there is some ambiguity there, we'll try something different in openttd
16:10<krinn>so, we end with INVALID_ENGINE ?
16:10<krinn>and i=1 while return i - 1; == 0
16:11<krinn>strange only that engine does that
16:11<@Yexo>the newgrf spec doesn't specify that a newgrf must implement the articulated callback for the "build menu chain" which is called when a vehicle doesn't exist
16:11<krinn>we might have others too i never seen, but others looks to works
16:12<krinn>newgrf bug so, not really newgrf, but the specs should enforce callback usage
16:12<@Yexo>but they don't, hence it's currently nog a bug in the newgrf
16:13<krinn>but how can openttd return its capacity ?
16:13<@Yexo>and in general we try to avoid changes to the spec that break existing newgrfs
16:13<krinn>i mean i saw openttd get the capacity for each articulated part : so engine is also not built, but capacity is count
16:13<@Yexo>the newgrf can fake the capacity for the first part
16:13<Rhamphoryncus>I need a break from thinking about all these curves.. time for some minecraft :D
16:14<krinn>Yexo, this also explain why newgrf can lie about the engine length
16:14<Rhamphoryncus>Doh, server is down
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16:15<Rubidium>Rhamphoryncus: my (and OpenTTD's) server work perfectly okay
16:15<Rhamphoryncus>Minecraft server
16:15<Rhamphoryncus>And it's merely turned off :P
16:16<Rhamphoryncus>(But openttd is MUCH more reliable than minecraft..)
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16:16<krinn>Yexo, how about returning non zero for if (!HasBit(EngInfo(engine_type)->callback_mask, CBM_VEHICLE_ARTIC_ENGINE)) return 0;
16:16<@Yexo>we've been discussing that :)
16:16<krinn>this way, openttd must assume non callback = articulated
16:16<krinn>oh :)
16:17<krinn>and just writing it down here i realize why: classic engine newgrf makers certainly doesn't set the callback if they build a non articulated engine :(
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16:21<krinn>i think CountArticulatedParts should be 1 base and not 0 base, so we could see if >1 articulated if 1 non articulated and if 0 missing the callback (no info)
16:21<@Yexo>missing callback means non-articulated
16:21<@Yexo>there is no way around that
16:22<krinn>how about then forcing the engine creation?
16:22<@Yexo>the change that we would make: if callback flag is set: assume the engine is articulated
16:22<krinn>by telling return CountArticulatedParts(engine_id, false) != 0;
16:22<@Yexo>technically a newgrf can set the articulated_engine flag but not return any articulated parts, so it wouldn't really be articulated
16:23<@Yexo>in this case the AI would think the engine was articulated while actually it's not (=the reverse of your current problem)
16:23<@Yexo>I don't think that situation would lead to problems, since anywhere you can use an articulated vehicle you can use a non-articulated one too
16:23<krinn>the false shouldn't force openttd to build an engine to get a real answer ?
16:23<krinn>i see a v = new Vehicle() if false
16:23<krinn>for the bool purchase_window
16:26<krinn>i love the : "so it doesn't matter how many articulated parts there are" :D
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16:26<krinn>it looks like the bill gates "640k will be enough..." kind of citation :)
16:27<@Yexo>that is not the problem
16:27<@Yexo>and it's not that kind of citation, this one is correct
16:28<krinn>looks like a dead end, it doesn't matter for openttd as no one wish see how many articulated parts are there in the gui, but that's different for noai
16:28<@Yexo>it's like if you want to know if you have enough money to buy a book, you go to the store and try to buy it. At home you first check if your wallet isn't empty. If it's empty, you say "I don't have to go to the store, it doesn't matter how cheap the book is, I don't have money anyway."
16:29<krinn>clear now
16:29<krinn>but if you cannot enforce articlated specs of newgrf, this is mostly unsolvable
16:32<Hirundo>Currently a newgrf can make vehicles bought on Wednesdays articulated and those bought on all other weekdays not
16:33<krinn>yes, but currently noai cannot know if it's wednesdays or not, and if the newgrf wish do that...
16:33<krinn>totally blind
16:34<Hirundo>NoAI can get the current game date and then determine if it's a (in-game) Wednesday
16:34<Hirundo>but that newgrf may also decide to change its behaviour depending on a parameter, or the presence of another grf, or even a parameter of that other grf
16:35<Hirundo>So indeed, for all practical purposes you're blind :-)
16:35<krinn>we can still create a list of engine and blacklist any engine that doesn't accept the AIOrder, but any ai then must build and use its own engine table
16:35<andythenorth>same issue for NoGo too btw
16:36<krinn>NoGo is just an ai
16:36<krinn>if i get it right :)
16:36<@planetmaker>not quite. It has different powers. But conceptually yes
16:36<@Yexo>there are differences in the API (some functions are only available for NoGo, some only for NoAI)
16:39<krinn>you wish a filebug for it ? it looks a simple issue, with a real hard solve
16:40<@Yexo> <- seems simply enough
16:41<krinn>this one should return false if HasBit isn't set right ?
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16:41<andythenorth>Yexo: enforce the buy menu cb in newgrf v9 :P
16:41<krinn>so the AI will still get false and think the vehicle isn't articulated
16:42<@Yexo>krinn: IsArticulatedEngine returns true if the CBM_VEHICLE_ARTIC_ENGINE flag is set
16:42<krinn>lol but the problem is that this flag isn't set
16:42<@Yexo>that flag is set for the Ikarus 180
16:42<Eddi|zuHause>Yexo: but the artic callback could return "not articulated", even if the bit is set
16:42<@Yexo>if the flag isn't set the vehicle is definitely not articulated
16:43<@Yexo>Eddi|zuHause: yes, but for the NoAI API this is the lesser evil
16:43<krinn>lol wonder how many newgrf are lying around non articulated with that flag set :)
16:43<@Yexo>returning "is articulated" when actually it "is not articulated" does not lead to as many problems as the other way around
16:44<Chris_Booth[ph]>Yexo: if it's an AI issue is in not best to force
16:44<Eddi|zuHause>krinn: it could just be something generic, like "i set all vehicles to have this callback, whether i use that is determined later"
16:44<krinn>yep as my ai will just clear a non articulated vehicle, not a big issue to lost one
16:44<Chris_Booth[ph]>Then they can only use drive through stops
16:44<Eddi|zuHause>Yexo: why can't it just run the callback without being able to allocate the vehicles?
16:45<@Yexo>Eddi|zuHause: it does that
16:45<@Yexo>but in this particular case the newgrf doesn't have the callback chain in the main menu
16:45<Eddi|zuHause>Yexo: so call it as the purchase menu?
16:46<Eddi|zuHause>oh, i see what you mean
16:46<Eddi|zuHause>it branches differently in the action3
16:46<Eddi|zuHause>and there's probably no foolproof method
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16:47<@Yexo>calling the "normal" chain, but that expects vehicle variables to be there, so you'd need to really allocate the vehicles, only to delete them later
16:47<@Yexo>and even that can/will fail for your wednesday example
16:48<Eddi|zuHause>it's certainly not "my" example...
16:48<@Yexo>oh, sorry, Hirundo gave it above
16:49<CIA-1>OpenTTD: yexo * r24029 /trunk/src/ (3 files in 2 dirs): -Change: [NoAI] make AIEngine::IsArticulated return true if the articulated callback flag is set, don't try to run the callback.
16:51<krinn>thank you guys for the solve
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16:55<@planetmaker><andythenorth> Yexo: enforce the buy menu cb in newgrf v9 :P <-- I'd rather say: "no special purchase stuff except graphics"
16:55<andythenorth>nah, that won't work :)
16:55<@planetmaker>why not?
16:55<andythenorth>because purchase menu doesn't know consist capacity etc
16:56<andythenorth>you have to tell it such things
16:56<andythenorth>well I do anyway :P
16:56<@planetmaker>run the actual consist capacity CB for that. But no special branch
16:56<@planetmaker>though... yes, difficult
16:56<@Yexo>it doesn't know currently, but the code can be changed to build a vehicle (including all articulated parts), compute consist capacity/other information, then destroy the vehicle again
16:56<@planetmaker>bad idea :-)
16:57<krinn>some newgrf authors could build buggy engine for AI if they could switch properties like that no ?
16:57<andythenorth>it has to handle cargo subtypes and such
16:57<andythenorth>you can see HEQS nfo code for examples
16:57<@planetmaker>krinn, why "could". They can
16:57<andythenorth>or probably BANDIT nml
16:57<krinn>i mean showing capacity of 1000 and then when brought setting it to 0...
16:57<@planetmaker>and they sometimes do
16:57<krinn>planetmaker, i was thinking that
16:57<andythenorth>also wagon power, weight etc has to be handled
16:58<@planetmaker>andythenorth, I know that all that needs handling. But when just summing over all articulated parts as if built, that's much more fail-proof
16:59<andythenorth>shrug :)
16:59<andythenorth>I really don't mind how it's implemented
17:00<krinn>andythenorth, must be why we get bug like that next :)
17:00<andythenorth>I'm not too bothered if the spec changes either, as long as changes are aware of why current approach is used
17:00<@planetmaker>why is the current approach used?
17:01<@planetmaker>only reason I can imagine is "I don't want to test-build a vehicle for the purchase list"
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17:01<krinn>Yexo, did you check ikarus 280 ?
17:02<krinn>looks like gfx also show an articulated bus
17:02<krinn>and engine return false for that one too
17:03<Eddi|zuHause>Yexo: maybe generally building "test" vehicles may be useful to clean up the whole purchase-list callback mess
17:04<andythenorth>planetmaker: probably hysterical raisins :P
17:04<Eddi|zuHause>people have been complaining that the purchase list stats for complicated articulated chains are "wrong" for ages
17:05<andythenorth>they should man up and fix it
17:05<andythenorth>it only took me a day to find a good non-insane solution :P
17:05<andythenorth>where's the problem? :|
17:06<krinn>andythenorth you're newgrf maker no ?
17:08<krinn>if you did like that author did, would you change to handle the callback ?
17:10<krinn>just to know if i could take time to find who made that newgrf with ikarus to tell him about the issue
17:11<@planetmaker>andythenorth, IMHO it is indeed conceptually wrong that there's a separate chain where the NewGRF author decides what to return as display values for the properties. Which can differ totally from what you get when actually building it
17:11<andythenorth>planetmaker: no argument
17:11<@planetmaker>as it both, is more work for the NewGRF author and even with the best of intentions and effort can fail
17:11<andythenorth>I am having to provide quite a lot of brittle code (in HEQS) to make the buy menu match what is built
17:12<andythenorth>in BANDIT, life is much easier, the build script sorts it out
17:12<andythenorth>one tram in HEQS took an afternoon
17:17<krinn>i think newgrf authors only design/code their newgrf specs base on openttd experience, they should be more aware of noai issue
17:17<andythenorth>krinn: your point is well made
17:17<andythenorth>no idea how to solve it though
17:18<andythenorth>there aren't enough hours per day to deal with all the complexity
17:18<andythenorth>and for hysterical raisins, bits of the API best messy
17:18<krinn>as long as they are aware noai exist, this should remove many errors/tweaks needs
17:20<andythenorth>what are the issues?
17:20<krinn>until the fix hit the noai api any ai will fail on that bus
17:21<krinn>and this mean handling all engine and a blacklist, blacklisting any "ikarus" in engine name... something not really nice or easy to do as first sight, like remove an articulated vehicle should do
17:22<andythenorth>you should refuse to handle such grfs, and post errors
17:23<andythenorth>noai authors have been a good source of bug reports / change requests for FIRS
17:23<andythenorth>it makes for cleaner newgrf
17:23<@planetmaker>krinn, normally NewGRF authors should not need care about AI
17:23<andythenorth>I don't / won't do anything special to support AI
17:23<krinn>newgrf authors should care about openttd: and noai like newgrf are openttd
17:23<@planetmaker>AI should get all required info by means of the API
17:23<andythenorth>but cleaning up mistakes is not special support
17:24<@planetmaker>andythenorth, support for AI can be part of writing NewGRFs. Like special information on categorizing stuff
17:24<krinn>planetmaker, even the fix now exist this mean for me per example, the noai will never be able to query how many articulated parts a vehicle have
17:24<krinn>i don't see any usage right now for that, just an example what this fix will imply
17:24<@planetmaker>krinn, that's also not important. Nor accessible to the human player
17:25<krinn>not important for human isn't the same for an AI
17:25<@planetmaker>where does it matter? The only imporant info is arcticulated yes/no
17:25<@planetmaker>or rather: can use normal road stops
17:26<krinn>right now yes, i already said i don't see the usage for that, just that because of that, i see the noai cannot get it
17:26<frosch123>krinn: when we get vehicle construction sandboxes, ais and humans will be able to query everything :)
17:27<krinn>just to cite you planetmaker >> and AI should get all required info by means of the API
17:27<krinn>see my point ?
17:27<krinn>even not useful i know, this cite cannot be true
17:27<@planetmaker>no. "required info" cannot be more info than available to a human player
17:28<krinn>oh, and AI should act like human player base on 0 info
17:28<frosch123>well, a ai will never be able to understand the readme
17:28<krinn>sorry, human player at least have "visual" info
17:28<krinn>frosch123, right
17:28<@planetmaker>krinn, the visual info will not tell you the amount of articulated parts reliably
17:28<frosch123>e.g. it has no chance to detect whether a vehicle has constant running cost, or whether they depend on speed
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17:28<frosch123>and there will never be an api function to query this from the purchase list
17:29<@planetmaker>I know of grfs which use invisbible articulated parts
17:29<krinn>lol oh my planetmaker i wasn't aware of that
17:29<frosch123>number of articulated parts? what is that good for
17:29<frosch123>i think what krinn wants to know is the length of the vehicle
17:30<@planetmaker>that's a different thing entirely
17:30<frosch123>there is no point in the number of articulated parts, is there?
17:30<@planetmaker>^^ yup
17:30<krinn>frosch123, yep, something as simple as that is a nightmare for an ai
17:30<frosch123>krinn: it's also for humans :p
17:30<krinn>like the wagon that is length 10 and when buy length 15 : nice you've build a train too long
17:30<@planetmaker>also for humans
17:31<@planetmaker>this stuff has a lot of historical bear traps built into it
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17:31<frosch123>the only solution we can offer for this is a construction sandbox
17:31<frosch123>but you won't be able to cut 90% of grf features just to make it easy for ais and boring for humans :p
17:32<andythenorth>there is no practical way that HEQS could provide accurate AI information about the trams
17:32<andythenorth>the API we have simply has no concept for that kind of stuff
17:32<frosch123>andythenorth: construction sandboxes would also make it easier for newgrfs :p
17:32<andythenorth>frosch123: so I see :)
17:32<krinn>i don't want cut 90% newgrf features, but some simple thing could be made to ease thing
17:32<@planetmaker>andythenorth, for all it's worth: it suffices to know "carries cargo X". "has length Y" and "has top speed Z" and can be built from 1843 to 1932
17:33<andythenorth>has length Y for refit A
17:33<krinn>and just costs!
17:33<andythenorth>solving this would require 'frameworking' the newgrf spec
17:34<krinn>to see what vehicle is the cheapest to build to carry A, an ai must build and refit all vehicle to compare
17:34<andythenorth>'frameworking' = provide a wide range of inflexible built-in functions
17:34<@planetmaker>krinn, so does the human player
17:34<@planetmaker>or read the readme (if any explaining it)
17:34<andythenorth>krinn: do you also refit to all subtypes for a vehicle?
17:34<frosch123>andythenorth: ais do not know about subtypes :p
17:34<krinn>the human player learn it 1 time, the ai learn it (if coded and it was a pain) every time its run
17:34<andythenorth>they're screwed then ;) :D
17:35<@planetmaker>krinn, save that info
17:35<krinn>i could, but we're limit by save take too long time, so i won't
17:35<@planetmaker>you've to learn it for each game then, but well
17:36<@planetmaker>memorizing all NewGRFs also takes too much time. So I don't :-P
17:36<krinn>but the point was that the human save it in his mind, while the ai need to learn at each new party even if it save it in savegame
17:36<@planetmaker>you can build that logic into your AI's file
17:36<@planetmaker>can AIs query the (exact) NewGRFs?
17:36<krinn>no :(
17:37<krinn>same, AI cannot know what newgrf are in use
17:37<@planetmaker>hm. Ok. Plan foiled
17:38<krinn>per example if i blacklist any ikarus name, i might blacklist a newgrf with ikarus bus X that have its callback properly set...
17:39<@planetmaker>The better way is in any case for the AI to query the game for needed properties of stuff
17:39<@planetmaker>way more flexible
17:39<@planetmaker>Even when it has to do it for every start
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17:40<@planetmaker>I'm not 100% sure whether it'd be a good idea to allow direct query
17:40<@planetmaker>It has pros. But also cons
17:40<krinn>as long as noai could be cheat, ai author will get lost
17:42<frosch123>planetmaker: you mean a blacklist of bad vehicle grfs for ais on bananas? :p
17:42<krinn>frosch123 bad newgrf for some AI could be good newgrf for more advance ai
17:42<@planetmaker>frosch123, not really :-P
17:43<rane>can i generate landscape settings with the guy for a server?
17:43<@Yexo>rane: yes
17:43<rane>are they saved to a cfg?
17:43<@Yexo>to openttd.cfg
17:43<@Yexo>see the readme where you can find it
17:46<krinn>that taco bell answer would be blacklist any ikarus name :P
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17:58<frosch123>night kids
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17:59<rane>landscape = tropic is awfully arid
18:01<krinn>Yexo, that ikarus 180 also do glitches in openttd list of running vehicle :P
18:01<@Yexo>so report it to the newgrf author :)
18:01<krinn>the picture looks like it is "eaten" by the vehicle number sometimes
18:03<andythenorth>ha ha
18:03*andythenorth codes in his free time, for fun
18:03<andythenorth>good article
18:03*andythenorth goes to bed in his free time, also
18:05<SpComb>how terrible
18:05<SpComb>that guy
18:08<krinn>this guy is mad :)
18:09<@Terkhen>good night
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18:09<krinn>it's just logic to ask that to a dev, just like you would prefer a driver that use his car everydays vs one that just got his license to drive your kids at school
18:10<andythenorth>he's slightly trolling
18:10<andythenorth>read the rest of his posts, he's a lot fun
18:10<andythenorth>I employee people who refuse to write code in their spare time
18:10<andythenorth>there's nothing wrong with their code
18:11<andythenorth>I've employed people who loved writing code in their spare time who were just awful
18:11<krinn>there's nothing wrong too with someone who got his license, else he wouldn't have it right?
18:11<krinn>it's just about logic, even logic isn't truth sometimes
18:12<krinn>eheh i suppose alain prost got accident too :)
18:12<Zuu>Well, young men are more probable to have a car accident.
18:13<krinn>yep zuu, just like dev coding in their free time should have stronger knowledge: logic
18:14<krinn>not always true, but you can't blame anyone from assuming that
18:14<krinn>we have a story here (france) that alain prost was caught at 320km/h on one of our route (limit to 130km/h) with a ferrari
18:15<krinn>and cops leave him gone away without ticket seeing it was alain prost (for the fame & the driving skill), who knows!
18:16<krinn>but i admit it's a story :) our cops are bitches
18:16<@Yexo>andythenorth: I like his style of posting
18:17<andythenorth>he's funny
18:17<andythenorth>I lost my evening to reading his stuff :P
18:17<@Yexo> "Since it's now clear that reading comprehension and critical thinking are not strong suits of the Node.js programmer, I would suggest that all Noders reading this article read it aloud, slowly and loudly, like an American tourist trying to find a train station in Tokyo."
18:17<krinn>i think it's sarcasm, just like the picture use with the cute rabbit eaten
18:18<@Yexo>sure, partly it is
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18:25<krinn>Suppose you're a less-than-expert programmer, which Node seems to attract in droves for some reason.
18:25<krinn>troll bait :)
18:30<krinn>night all
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18:37<andythenorth>"Don't do image processing work with PIL unless you have proven that command-line ImageMagick won't do the job"
18:43<Zuu>Are 11 stickies in the 32bit forum really needed?
18:43<Zuu>Does the one with most stkies win?
18:44<@Yexo>jupix and pikka are moderators there
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19:55<@peter1138>Pikka, Pikka Pikka Pikka Pikka
19:56<Pikka>peter1138, peter1138, peter1138, peter1139
19:56<@peter1138>do you fancy sorting out the 32bit sticky mess?
19:57<@peter1138>there's like eleventy million stickies
19:57<Pikka>just a mo, I'll go look
19:57<@peter1138>pretty much all obsolete or just, er, crap, heh
19:58<Pikka>okay, what needs to go?
19:58<Pikka>or what needs to stay?
20:00<@peter1138>good question. i'd say all :p
20:00<@peter1138>i suppose it should be jupix sorting it out, as he did the deed in the first place
20:01<Pikka>mmhm :P
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21:19<Pikka>Rubidium: any advance on bananas?
21:21<Pinkbeast>Is there a guide to "drawing locomotives for oafs" anywhere?
21:21<Pikka>one or two
21:22<Pikka>I have sprite templates at , for getting the dimensions correct. I think purno used to have a general drawing guide somewhere.
21:25<Pinkbeast>Coo, someone's drawing the Leader?
21:26<Pikka>oberhümer, it would seem
21:27<Pinkbeast>How do you stat up a one-off experimental locomotive that never quite worked?
21:28<Pikka>what locomotive did you have in mind?
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21:29<Pinkbeast>It's an example, yeah, or (say) LNER No. 10000 or _Duke of Gloucester_
21:30<Pikka>well, in all those cases I'd say the stats are either known or make-up-able.
21:31<Pikka>never-quite-working is quite hard to represent in OTTD though
21:32<Pikka>all you can do is increase costs, or perhaps increase reliability decay (although since most people play with breakdowns off that won't have much of an effect)
21:32<xiong>Max speed 0.
21:33<Pinkbeast>I noticed the UKRS+ has quite a few things that weren't actually mass produced and I guess we're basically on the honour system not to build a hundred of them. :-)
21:34<Pikka>not necessarily, there's no reason you have to follow reality. the reasons why things weren't mass produced in real life don't necessarily affect the world of TTD.
21:35<Pikka>but yes, a lot of the more esoteric vehicles in UKRS+ won't make it to the main set even as extended locos, for that reason. :)
21:38<Pinkbeast>Thanks for the pointer to the templates, anyway - I'm off to bed.
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23:02<Mazur>Oh, great work, guys, now we can't place signs while the server is paused anymore, I can't vote on PS until a second victim stumbles in.
23:03<Mazur>That used to be a great plus during paused state: one could at least plaec signs at problem spots or errors to come back to later.
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---Logclosed Thu Mar 15 00:00:52 2012