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#openttd IRC Logs for 2012-03-15

---Logopened Thu Mar 15 00:00:52 2012
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00:40<Pikka>what actions to allow while paused is a config option, Mazur. Don't blame the devs if your server isn't set up correctly. :)
00:40<Mazur>Duly noted, so I apologise for my wrongly directed outburst.
00:42<Mazur>Alas it's not my server, but the Public Server, so I'll jut have to exert patience.
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02:06<Rubidium>Pikka: if support for grf container v2 is advance, then yes
02:19<Pikka>hmm
02:20<Pikka>support for uploading my grf would be nice :)
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02:43<xiong>Pikka, link me.
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03:12<Pikka>wat
03:15<@peter1138>wut
03:17<Pikka>I don't know what xiong wanted me to link him to
03:18<xiong><Pikka> support for uploading my grf would be nice :)
03:19<Pikka>yes, and what am I linking you to? the grf?
03:19<xiong>If I see it, I might give it my support.
03:19<xiong>I'm assuming you have the development work somewhere online. That might not be true.
03:20<Pikka>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=45637&p=1000802#p1000802
03:20*xiong looks
03:21<xiong>You're talking about UKRS? I'm a Yank, I play NARS; but I'm aware that UKRS is very well respected. In what way might you feel unappreciated?
03:21-!-andythenorth [~Andy@cpc23-aztw25-2-0-cust33.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd
03:21<Pikka>in the way that when I try to upload it to bananas, it gives me an error message :)
03:22<Pikka>thanks for the support, but it's more of a technical issue ;)
03:22<Pikka>good morning andy
03:22<xiong>Ah. Wrong support.
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04:02<Pikka>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=47&t=56959&start=40 it's not /that/ difficult a concept, it is?
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04:15<andythenorth>anyway, so if infra is ever released, how long before it's pulled in a drama?
04:16<drvanon_>hey people, I've been playing openttd for a while now (bout two months) and ALWAYS lose to AdmiralAI, is it impossible or did anybody beat it?
04:23-!-Pulec [~pulec@static-cl093181068250.unet.cz] has joined #openttd
04:24<andythenorth>Pikka: what Quast65 has done is exactly what SAC did last year that I had a most dull and upsetting argument with her about
04:24<andythenorth>minus the drama
04:25<andythenorth>he shouldn't really be doing it
04:25<andythenorth>and I'm a hypocrite if I don't say so :P
04:25<andythenorth>it's not really about copyright
04:26<andythenorth>taking graphics that you can't or won't release for reason xyz, modifying them, then posting screenshots all over the forum just creates boring drama
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04:26<Zuu>drvanon_: Yes it is possible.
04:27<Zuu>It is not always the winner in AI battles, so sure it is possible to beat it. :-)
04:27<andythenorth>"it's a source of boring drama" should be enough reason to not do something
04:27<Zuu>Also, I know there are players that complain that all AIs are to easy to beat.
04:27<andythenorth>[except for trolling BROS, which I should be allowed to do]
04:29<@planetmaker>drvanon_: it's definitely feasible to beat every existing AI
04:29<dihedral>good morning gents
04:29<@planetmaker>offer your services over more than the mere minimum distance
04:29<@planetmaker>And don't expect to be better in the first 10 years of gameplay
04:30<@planetmaker>(that is ingame years)
04:31*andythenorth -> work
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04:31<@planetmaker>Pikka: what quast does is perfectly ok as long as he doesn't release anything but screenshots
04:31<@planetmaker>with whatever sprites posted
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05:21<Arafangion>Sad... irc.freenode.net seems down.
05:21*Arafangion wonders what he should do with his life.
05:26<dihedral>ponder less, do more
05:27<Arafangion>Heh.
05:27<Arafangion>It's been a long day. :)
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05:31<valhallasw>Arafangion: works for me
05:31<valhallasw>try connecting to gibson.freenode.net directly
05:31<Arafangion>valhallasw: I just got in, actualyl - I think at least one of the round-robin servers is down.
05:32<Arafangion>valhallasw: Oddly, it would time out just after the ident check, so it'd /connect/ fine.
05:32<valhallasw>that's weird indeed
05:33<Arafangion>Very. I'm not sure if the fault is freenode... Or my ISP - I suspect the later. :(
05:33<Arafangion>*latter
05:35<xiong>Sorry; I can't seem to tease this out, though it should be trivial. What's the console command to set the current game year?
05:36<xiong>I know I can do this from the cheat menu but it's quite tedious, especially when moving 50 or 100 years.
05:36<xiong>setdate, setyear, set date, set year -- none work.
05:37<xiong>Also, it seems list_vars is no longer a command!
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05:42<Arafangion>Wow - what works *amzing* in thai curry: anchovies!
05:45<Pikka>there isn't one as far as I know, xiong
05:45<xiong>How odd.
05:46<xiong>Well, not a major issue, merely a missing feature.
05:47<xiong>Now I think I've stumbled on something truly weird. Somewhere along the line, the default rail bridge got weird. When I do not load TTRS, I get a rail bridge of the modern "self-supporting" type, even in 1850, although it's advertised as "suspension".
05:48<xiong>When I do load TTRS and set the parameter to use the TTRS bridges, I get... the same exact thing.
05:48<xiong>When I load TTRS and set the parameter to allow "default" bridges, then I get things that look like suspension bridges... except they're a tad messed up.
05:48<xiong>Bug or feature?
05:49<Pikka>I imagine that the OpenGFX bridges are derived from TTRS
05:49<Pikka>but the "default" sprites in TTRS are original TTD
05:50<Pikka>so without TTRS, you still see TTRS graphics because they were used for OpenGFX, and with the "default" bridges you get bits of the OpenGFX bridges with TTRS's original "default" sprite bits mixed in.
05:50<Pikka>I don't know because I don't use OpenGFX or TTRS. :)
05:52<@planetmaker>xiong: TTRS and OpenGFX share some bridges. Pikka's explanation is right to my knowledge
05:53<xiong>Pikka, planetmaker, that is *precisely* what I'd been thinking.
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05:54<@planetmaker>technically probably TTRS' assumption of 'default' is kinda flawed or should be renamed to 'TTD bridges'
05:55<xiong>Well, me being a hardnosed basterd, I think I should go look for alternatives to OpenGFX. I've been driving these ancient wood-fired steamers over self-supporting bridges long enough.
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05:56<Pikka>it's not opengfx's fault, it's just TTD's default bridge selection, which don't anticipate start dates of 1850.
05:56<xiong>What interests me, planetmaker, is that TTRS 'default' is a *copy* of some older sprite set; not merely disabling TTRS's own sprites.
05:56<xiong>Well, care to suggest an alternative?
05:56<Pikka>xiong: TTRS dates from before opengfx, when the default graphics were all there was.
05:57<@planetmaker>it's probably trying to 'fix' something in the TTD sprites. Or adjust to its own stuff
05:57<xiong>It would be nice if the suspension bridges were suspension bridges... and while I'm at it, if the wooden bridges were wooden.
05:57<@planetmaker>xiong: improvements for the bridge sprites are always welcome
05:57<Pikka>or find the TTD graphics somewhere and use those. :)
05:57<@planetmaker>tbh, I'm more likely to fix OpenGFX than TTRS. If it's just for the pain of fixing things :-)
05:58<xiong>That's it, eh?
05:58<@planetmaker>s/fix/change/
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05:58<xiong>I was afraid that there wouldn't be too many base sets floating around.
05:59<@planetmaker>exactly two
05:59<Pikka>xiong: if you don't want suspension bridges in 1850, there's my "Expensive, Short and Slow Bridges" on bananas. but be warned it does what it says on the tin. :)
05:59<@planetmaker>and meanwhile the TTD base set is what makes progress extremely difficult
05:59<Pikka>it doesn't do anything with the graphics, just changes the stats of the bridges.
05:59<@planetmaker>it has IMHO become a burden
06:00<Pikka>how so, planetmaker?
06:00<xiong>I'm not sure I follow.
06:00<@planetmaker>you can't extent specs easily. As you can't properly adjust those graphics for copyright reasons
06:01<@planetmaker>Thinking of things like 45° rotated bridges, rotated stuff for airports, stations and alike
06:01<@planetmaker>doing that is very very grayscale at least
06:01<Pikka>rotated airports at least shouldn't be in the base set. leave it to newgrfs.
06:02<@planetmaker>default rotated airports should
06:02<Pikka>the default airports shouldn't be rotated
06:02<@planetmaker>as should the game by default support vehicles which refit and alike
06:02<@planetmaker>The default experience with OpenTTD is *severely* limited by the backward compatibility to newgrfs
06:03<@planetmaker>and it's more so that base sets can't even be extended
06:03<@planetmaker>and yes, the default game should allow to rotate airports. Why not?
06:03<@planetmaker>newgrfs should define *new* stuff
06:03<Pikka>different airport alignments are new stuff
06:03<@planetmaker>(or change existing). But rotations is just...
06:03<@planetmaker>but rotation is not alignment
06:04<@planetmaker>the point is: the default OpenTTD is kinda crippled wrt what the game can do
06:04<xiong>Um, surely the TTD base set can simply be ignored? It's... very old.
06:05<xiong>Just ship the game with OpenGFX and leave it at that.
06:06<xiong>I mean, what virtue to remain compatible with the older stuff? If OpenGFX is flawed, improve that. No?
06:06<@planetmaker>The most important points are that vehicles don't allow refit, tracks have no snow transition, bridges have no snow transition (or snow at all), Stations know no snow, airports know no ground and rotation, default objects know no snow
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06:06<@planetmaker>all this should be available when you install OpenTTD out-of-box
06:06<@planetmaker>and at the same time this should not break any NewGRF
06:07<xiong>Um. Well, if I talk much longer, I'm going to make a fool of myself. I know nothing about the code. I can imagine but that's not the same. What I do know is graphics.
06:07<Pikka>because it's the base graphics, xiong
06:08<Pikka>the functionality should be identical so that people using different base sets can play together in multiplayer, basically.
06:08<@planetmaker>Pikka: yes. But that's exactly where TTD is a burden: we cannot extent the set
06:08<xiong>Well, I wouldn't. I'd just toss the old bad stuff overboard.
06:09<@planetmaker>people using those sprites without permission is one thing. Using it in the OpenTTD repository is another
06:09<Pikka>so why does it need to be in the openttd repository?
06:09<Pikka>the current TTD grf files aren't.
06:10<@planetmaker>exactly. But these changes I just listed, need new sprites. In openttd.grf. Which is... part of OpenTTD
06:10<xiong>Um, can I ask about something I *might* understand? Why not just draw better graphics for a base graphics set?
06:10<@planetmaker>which is the extra newgrf without which the TTD base set would not work at all
06:10<@planetmaker>it's an extra grf of several thousands of sprites
06:11<@planetmaker>thus the TTD base set actually receives currently extra care by having 1/5 of it directly in the openttd sources
06:11<@planetmaker>of those sprites which were not shipped with TTD
06:11<Pikka>yes
06:11<Pikka>but why does any extended original TTD graphics base set need to be in the openttd sources?
06:12<@planetmaker>yep. Do you make a TTD base set?
06:12<Pikka>you publish the updated opengfx, someone else takes the TTD base set, adds the required shenanigans and puts it somewhere else. I feel like I might have just volunteered...
06:12<xiong>Yes, I'm totally confused. Why not just push the old TTD graphics, which aren't even legal, over the cliff? And if OpenGFX needs work, do that.
06:12<@planetmaker>the point is, you may not simply use the TTD sprites, and distribute them... but yes, that would work
06:13<@planetmaker>xiong: politics :-) You can't imagine the outcry that would cause
06:13<Pikka>xiong: because the old TTD graphics make the game look like TTD, and the OpenGFX graphics make the game look like crap.
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06:13<@planetmaker>@kick Pikka (sorry)
06:13-!-Pikka was kicked from #openttd by DorpsGek [(sorry)]
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06:14<xiong>What?
06:14<Pikka>just my opinion, of course :)
06:14<@planetmaker>sorry to say, but you're a rude ass
06:14<@planetmaker>sometimes
06:14<Pikka>well, they do, and I say that as someone who has contributed to opengfx
06:15<Pikka>it's very graphically inconsistent, and a lot of it was rushed for the release.
06:15<xiong>Look, please try to forget I'm an ignorant idiot. Leave aside the issue of whether TTD loyalists will ever assent to having that go away. May I please ask why OpenGFX cannot be fixed?
06:15<@planetmaker>well. Why not then help make it better?
06:15<@planetmaker>I always hear all kind of people say that.
06:15<xiong>That's what I'm asking!
06:15<Pikka>because I'm quite happy with the TTD graphics, planetmaker.
06:15<@planetmaker>But *no one* actually does something about that
06:16<xiong>You're talking as if I'm not even here.
06:16<@planetmaker>But as we just found out: they limit what's possible meanwhile
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06:16<Pikka>well
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06:16<xiong>Is the problem drawing or coding?
06:16<@planetmaker>xiong: OpenGFX can be fixed. It needs simply people who work on the graphics
06:17<@planetmaker>who consistently and persistently work on them
06:17<@planetmaker>not like "I fix this sprite and then I'm off again"
06:17<xiong>Well... how many times have I said: I have experience and willingness.
06:17<@planetmaker>xiong: so what stops you?
06:17<dihedral>and not people who just complain "it looks like crap" and dont do anything towards it :-P
06:18<xiong>I have no understanding of the code; and, quite honestly, no interest.
06:18<@planetmaker>see.
06:18<xiong>I'm willing to draw all day long.
06:18<dihedral>xiong, do a joint work: you draw, someone else codes
06:18<@planetmaker>well. For starters I can imagine houses can be improved a lot
06:19<xiong>I'm an experienced engineer and yes, I do have software skills. But I've seen various bits of OpenTTD and NewGRF code and it's just alien. I have no background in that stuff.
06:19<xiong>It's been 25 years since I wrote any C.
06:19<Pikka>dihedral: I do something towards it insofar as when people say "can we use your sprites" I say "yes". but I don't use opengfx so there's no real interest there for me.
06:19<@planetmaker>xiong: opengfx is basically no code. Just sprites
06:19<xiong>Yah well, that's what people told me about NewGRFs.
06:20<@planetmaker>and there's no c code in it at all
06:20<@planetmaker>xiong: base sets are no NewGRFs
06:20<xiong>Sorry, I don't want to be argumentative.
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06:21<Pikka>planetmaker: well, if orudge is willing to host it, I'm willing to commit to TTD-ifying any changes to the base set you want to make.
06:21<@orudge>what what
06:21<Pikka>you heard
06:21<Pikka>discussion on how the TTD base set is holding back openttd because it means base sets can't be expanded.
06:22<@orudge>well, I can host anything you may wish to be hosted that is TTD-related
06:22<Pikka>even though it's possibly copyright infringing? (ie, is the original TTD grfs)
06:22<@planetmaker>orudge: the (my) argument was more in direction of "the TTD base set is difficult to expand as it requires to make derivatives of the TTD sprites"
06:23<xiong>May I ask if anyone has tried to *fix* the copyright issue? The game is very old.
06:23<@planetmaker>which are problematic to put into openttd's repo into openttd.grf in excessive amounts
06:23<@planetmaker>xiong: you may. The answer to the implied question is: multiple people have
06:23<@orudge>Pikka: oh, so you're wanting to modify the original base graphics?
06:23<Pikka>yes
06:23<dihedral>xiong, i have had contact to the copyright holder
06:23<@planetmaker>tried to find someone who is responsible / is the copyright holder
06:24<@planetmaker>Pikka: so you're willing to spend time there but not help make the legal alternative better? :-(
06:24<dihedral>or at least the agency that claims to hold the copyright in the name of the client
06:24<Pikka>I quite like the original graphics, planetmaker :)
06:24<Pikka>and have made plenty of derivatives of them of my own (eg, TaI)...
06:25<dihedral>i quite liked my AMD K2 400MHz - but it was time to move on
06:25<@orudge>Pikka: well, I don't see that it's especially different to some of the graphics sets in the past that I'm sure have used little bits of TTD sprites, rightly or wrongly. My assumption is you're mostly going to be adding new things, maybe adapting older sprites a little?
06:25<@orudge>but well, I'm sure something can be arranged
06:25<xiong>I'd think that would be straightforward. WP says: "The brand (MicroProse) is currently owned by Interactive Game Group."
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06:26<@planetmaker>orudge: it might indeed be interesting. It'd get the base sets completely out of OpenTTD's source
06:26<xiong>http://www.manta.com/c/mtcc3xd/interactive-game-group
06:26<swissfan91>morning all
06:26<Pikka>doesn't mean anything, xiong. just because they own a brand name doesn't mean they own anything else.
06:27<dihedral>they are not the copyright holder ;-)
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06:28<xiong>I don't mean to be rude... but I do tend to think... at right angles to others. If you were willing to give me a hearing, you might find I'm able to think of a likely line of approach.
06:28<@orudge>planetmaker: well, if it's going to work out better for everybody in the end, allowing better developments, then it seems like it may be a plan. But I've not been following the conversation so am not entirely sure as to what is planned to be changed.
06:28<xiong>I'm not smarter than the next guy but I find things he doesn't... sometimes.
06:28<@planetmaker>nothing so far, orudge
06:28<@planetmaker>Just my very personal thoughts
06:28<swissfan91>I have a problem with the graphics I am drawing - the coder I am using says they are 32bpp True Colours instead of 8bpp... we're using the same palette so I have no idea what to do?
06:29<@planetmaker>swissfan91: using the palette image for drawing doesn't mean the graphics file is automatically in a paletted format
06:29<dihedral>i still have an email from the agency of CS - if you are interested
06:30<xiong>Can the base graphics set support the two extra zoom levels?
06:30<@planetmaker>you have to explicitly choose to make an image file which uses a particular palette, swissfan91
06:30<@planetmaker>how - that depends on the programme you use
06:30<@planetmaker>MS Paint is no such programme
06:30<swissfan91>paint.net.. :P
06:30<@planetmaker>xiong: yes. Actually all 5
06:30<@planetmaker>extra zoom levels
06:30<dihedral>anybody here familiar with google sitemap generator?
06:30<xiong>5?
06:30<@planetmaker>in both 8bpp and 32bpp
06:31<@planetmaker>yes. 5.
06:31<@planetmaker>4x, 2x, (1x) 0.5x, 0.25x, 0.125x
06:31<xiong>Now I'm confused. I'm not sure how you count zoom.
06:31<xiong>Okay then; sorry. To me, that's 2 extra zoom (zoom in) levels.
06:32<xiong>I mean, if you zoom out, that's another animal.
06:32<xiong>I ask because I adore the zoom in. My old eyes really benefit... and I've been here to say Thank You to whoever cooked it up.
06:33<xiong>And even with the standard 1x graphics, the extra zoom is great. But if I were to work on new graphics, I'd really prefer to support the extra zoom properly.
06:33<@planetmaker>of course. That makes much sense to do so
06:34<swissfan91>how do you mean support the EZ properly?
06:34<xiong>What about the palette issue? I've done a lot of work with indexed color; I can do more. But it is... difficult.
06:34<@planetmaker>Actually there's a whole big pile of work waiting on the graphics front: all existing stuff needs a proper 32bpp version. Which probably best is based on a blender object which is rendered in the various zoom levels
06:35<@planetmaker>and the 8bpp could need some work on consistency. And extra zoom for at least some sprites, too
06:35<xiong>Well, blender!
06:35<@planetmaker>It needs foremost artists work. But for sure I can't code all that alone either
06:35<xiong>Ha ha, in my day we squeezed out each pixel by hand.
06:36<@planetmaker>blender is not needed. But rendering might make it easy to get different zoom levels
06:36<@planetmaker>mostly artist's choice, I'd say
06:36<swissfan91>planetmaker: as I use paint.net.. what are my options? include a palette with the sprites?
06:36<xiong>No, I'd love to do 3D.
06:37<@planetmaker>no idea how that programme works, swissfan91. IIRC it doesn't support palettes properly
06:37<xiong>swissfan91, Chuck that and use The Gimp.
06:37<@planetmaker>but I never used it. But failed over two days to go through that with DanMacK
06:37<@planetmaker>thus wrong tool, swissfan91 ;-)
06:37<xiong>Yah.
06:38<swissfan91>hmmm, so when tutorials state that a program as simple as mspaint can be used to draw sprites - they'll always result in 32bpp graphics?
06:38<@planetmaker>well. I don't know. Obviously they then miss either a manual (where you can look up how to use palettes - you did search there first, did you?!). And / or mentioning it in the tutorial
06:39<xiong>swissfan91, The reason I've been asking about colors and the base graphics set is that indexed color is tricky. You need to use the right tools, you need to use them properly; and you need to have a grasp of underlying color theory.
06:40<xiong>Even with years of experience, I've gotten weird results on occasion. Not everyone sorts the color table the same way.
06:40<swissfan91>planetmaker: I asked various people about palettes before I started drawing. After much stupidity from myself, I was sent a palette that I was told was suitable - so I used that.
06:40<swissfan91>xiong: underlying color theory is something I must lack!
06:40<@planetmaker>swissfan91: how "was sent a palette"?
06:41<swissfan91>I was linked to one - I can't remember. All I know is, I have a palette in my drawing folder that I open and use the colours from?
06:41<@planetmaker>just using a colour picker on http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/PalettesAndCoordinates#Palettes doesn't cut it
06:41<@planetmaker>it's an image format which needs be different
06:41<swissfan91>oh..
06:42<xiong>swissfan91, if you install The Gimp I will walk you through indexed color.
06:42<swissfan91>xiong: very kind :)
06:42<xiong>I can't promise you expertise overnight; that comes with experience. But I should be able to get you to the stage of technically acceptable.
06:43<swissfan91>I think I have it installed already
06:43<swissfan91>GIMP 2?
06:43<swissfan91>.6*
06:43<@planetmaker>@logs
06:43<@DorpsGek>planetmaker: http://irclogs.qmsk.net/channels/openttd
06:43<xiong>swissfan91, It seems I'm running 2.6, which is probably a bit old.
06:44<xiong>Ah. You've got the same. Well, that's the ticket.
06:44<xiong>There may be a newer version.
06:44<xiong>This is not the best time; it's nearly 4am here. What kind of time are you on, swissfan91?
06:45<swissfan91>I can be free most times for something important :)
06:45<swissfan91>when are you?
06:46<xiong>I'm in San Francisco, -0800 UT. But I work nights; my best time is usually... about 2 hours ago. I often have more time free on Fri and Sat nights.
06:47<swissfan91>well I am in the UK - I could probably get up early and do ~2 hours ago tomorrow?
06:47<@planetmaker>gimp 2.6 is not old... it's the current stable
06:47<xiong>Let's not try to nail down a big block of time; that's unrealistic.
06:48<xiong>Let me try to think in terms of London time...
06:48<swissfan91>8.30am I can be on?
06:48<@planetmaker>btw, pikka, wrt your upload issue: it really would help if you could give us a verbatim quote of the error
06:48<swissfan91>so - 12.30am your time
06:48<@planetmaker>There's just too many unknowns to poke in the dark otherwise
06:49<Pikka>one sec planetmaker, I'll try it and report back
06:49<@planetmaker>ty
06:50<xiong>The thing is, swissfan91, I work nights and my quitting time is unpredictable. I don't want you waiting for me and I'm coming home late... and tired out. Better to shoot for the weekend, if you have time then.
06:50<Pikka>"Unexpected error while uploading."
06:50<@planetmaker>hm, that's all?
06:50<Pikka>yep
06:50<swissfan91>I see what you're saying. This weekend, I can do... saturday night/sunday morning
06:51<Pikka>and fwiw andythenorth tried uploading it for me too and got the same error, so it's not on my end.
06:51<swissfan91>unfortunately I have a busy few weekends coming up
06:51<@planetmaker>I've no doubt about that. It's something surely in the DB.
06:51<@planetmaker>But that's why the exact error matters
06:51<@planetmaker>:-)
06:51<Pikka>indeed :)
06:51<xiong>Let's do this: there is already a #gimp channel. Nobody is there so I don't think we'll disturb anyone! /join #gimp and we'll see how we fall out.
06:52<@planetmaker>gimp has its own irc server... if you want irc online help
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06:55<swissfan91>planetmaker: I have no idea how much work needs done to me (?) so I can be at a stage when I can open GIMP and start drawing with some colours!
06:56<@planetmaker>I don't know either. I just know I learnt the gimp way
06:56<@planetmaker>at least sufficiently for me to do some (basic) sprite work
06:57<swissfan91>the coder who I am (gratefully) using has provided me a test grf with some of my graphics in. Although they are in 32bpp - what stops this grf being usable?
06:58<@planetmaker>every grf needs 8bpp 1x sprites
06:58<@planetmaker>everything else is optional
06:58<@planetmaker>thus if the grf works: then the sprites are 8bpp
06:58<@planetmaker>or have been converted at some stage from 32bpp to 8bpp
06:58<@planetmaker>with the proper palette
06:58<swissfan91>the grf does work - I have placed some pistes ingame.
06:59<@planetmaker>then you used the proper 8bpp palette at some stage
06:59<swissfan91>wally must have weaved some magic somewhere :P
06:59<@planetmaker>a good graphics programme can convert 32bpp->8bpp without much trouble, if the 32bpp uses the colours of the 8bpp palette
07:00<@planetmaker>(exceptions apply)
07:00<swissfan91>I see.
07:01<swissfan91>I wish June would hurry up so I could devote proper amounts of time to this - bloomin' final exams :(
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07:04<swissfan91>planetmaker: are there any specific things you would like to see on a mountain piste ingame? I feel as though I should have a token of thanks for you ingame!
07:05<@planetmaker>a hiking hut for the summer?
07:06<swissfan91>I have attempted that before... but they always seem to be too big and look like a barn. Are you thinking of a small hut?
07:06<swissfan91>http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/01812/mountain_hut_1812432c.jpg
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07:07<@planetmaker>\o/
07:08<@planetmaker>something like that, yes
07:08<@planetmaker>something maybe half a dozen or dozen people could stay and have some warmth
07:08<swissfan91>that will definitely be included :)
07:09<Vantalk>Hey guys..srry to interrupt.. game is great but I would like to use the old TT graphics. Is that possible?
07:09<@planetmaker>yes. Read section 4 of the readme
07:09<@planetmaker>assuming you mean TTD and not TT
07:10<Vantalk>nope.. i really do mean TT and not TTD :(
07:10<@planetmaker>then no. You only can use the TTD base sets. Or OpenGFX
07:11<Vantalk>ok thanks for the straight answer :)
07:11<@planetmaker>there's somewhere a TTO conversion NewGRF, though
07:11<Vantalk>i shall try to check on that. thank you
07:11<swissfan91>what are your views on a 2x2 newobject that is a mountain peak? so then you can raise a pyramid ingame, flatten the top to 2x2, and place it on top? similar to this:
07:11<swissfan91>http://www.godsplan-today.com/0_Images/Pyramid.jpg
07:12<swissfan91>obviously it would have to be drawn incredibly well..
07:12<@planetmaker>mountain top pyramid? Never seen that anywhere
07:12<@planetmaker>Rather a summit cross as 1-tile object?
07:12<swissfan91>as in.. if the bottom half of that drawing as OTTD land, and then the top was a newobject.
07:13<@planetmaker>you don't need to draw the land. you can just reference there the ground tiles
07:13<swissfan91>so you could say.. have this ingame:
07:13<swissfan91>http://www.about.ch/cantons/valais/matterhorn.jpg
07:14<@planetmaker>swissfan91: rather than a 2x2 pyramid I'd envision some kind of cliffs, overhangs or steep walls
07:14<@planetmaker>as something which is (much) steeper than the normal landscape gradient
07:15<swissfan91>steeper - yes. I may have to draw a quick mock-up to show how I mean..
07:15<swissfan91>maybe start as a 1x1 tile first.
07:17<@planetmaker>personally I'd emphasise more smaller steep, stony walls or so which could be placed anywhere on hill sides or slopes
07:17<@planetmaker>hm... I maybe should dig out my foot path sprites. They might come in handy for your newgrf.
07:18<@planetmaker>they aren't yet finished and need more sprites for all kind of slopes
07:18<@planetmaker>(yes, no relation to cliffs, though :-P )
07:18<swissfan91>yes, they would definitely come in handy!
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07:21<@planetmaker>hm, seems I have no teaser of that yet
07:25<@planetmaker>http://devs.openttd.org/~planetmaker/patches/path.png <-- sprites like these
07:25<@planetmaker>I'm not happy with shading, though
07:25<swissfan91>see you're PM planetmaker... that sort of thing I mean
07:25<swissfan91>you could end up with a Peaks of the World object grf
07:26<@planetmaker>hm... I might have thought that way too complicated when I worked on it a year ago...
07:27<swissfan91>those footpaths are nice - I have drawn some already but mine are too bright.
07:27<swissfan91>I may steal some colours from yours - is that OK?
07:27<andythenorth>fwiw, if opengfx was the only choice, I'd probably have to figure out how to patch ottd to adjust that :
07:27<andythenorth>:P
07:28<Pikka>andy
07:28<Pikka>you can help me update the TTD grfs then :P
07:28<andythenorth>you know that the correct thing to do is make opengfx better?
07:29<@planetmaker>yes, you may use them, if you want, swissfan91
07:30<@planetmaker>and wrt the summit: well, maybe yes
07:30<swissfan91>a lot of imagination must be used - especially with that drawing of mine :P
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07:30<swissfan91>but I think as a concept it may have some potential
07:31<@planetmaker>but it probably makes sense in a complete landscape tile set for each slope to be stony for mountain ranges
07:31<V453000>hello, how do I upload a newGRF to bananas please?
07:31<@planetmaker>as starter you could offer the stony ground sprites for building as new objects additionally to that
07:31<@planetmaker>as players can't build the stones ingame
07:31<swissfan91>that's true - but then we lack stoney ground snow transitions..
07:32<@planetmaker>well... they're relatively easily created :-)
07:33<swissfan91>I think they may have to be the priority wrt this
07:33<@planetmaker>hm... though I don't have yet the stones as separate layer
07:33<@planetmaker>I have one big gimp file where most of the landscape sprites are in separate layers
07:33<@planetmaker>Thus composing new combinatorical sprites from that is dead easy
07:34<swissfan91>ah, that's good.
07:34<@planetmaker>but... no stones in that yet
07:35<V453000>can someone help me with uploading a newGRF to bananas pleasE?
07:36<@planetmaker>it's actually all in the OpenGFX repo: http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/opengfx/repository/changes/sprites/source/terrain/terrain.xcf
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07:36<@planetmaker>but contains also the parts which are needed for OpenGFX+ Landscape
07:37<swissfan91>I see.
07:38<swissfan91>well, I must go to the library and do work. I am skiing next weekend, so I expect I'll come back with all my usual ideas... but this time I'll actually be able to draw them!
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07:38<@planetmaker>enjoy
07:39<swissfan91>thanks for your help as always!
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07:42<@planetmaker>my pleasure
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08:03<Vantalk>Thank you planetmaker. I tried the TTO full conversion, took a while to understand it and apply. Not 100% converted but i like it a lot better. Thanks again
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09:03<NGC3982>morning.
09:03<NGC3982>oh
09:03<NGC3982>afternoon*.
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11:20<Rhamphoryncus>Noob junction! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Tower18NorthboundWellsPinkLine.jpg http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:CTA_loop_junction.jpg
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11:39<Nat_aS>that's what junctions look like in the real wold :V
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12:04<swissfan91>afternoon all
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13:45<@Terkhen>hello
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14:15<Rubidium>Pikka... where art thee?
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14:16<Eddi|zuHause>plural?
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14:17<__ln__>i wish to register a complaint
14:18<Eddi|zuHause>complaints typically go to "Ablage P" ;)
14:18<@planetmaker>or andythenorth does know it, too?
14:18<@planetmaker>__ln__: yup, please do. You know. The big round register bin :-P
14:18<__ln__>horizontal scrolling with the mouse does absolutely nothing.
14:19<Eddi|zuHause>there used to be a setting for that
14:19<Eddi|zuHause>possibly only working on MacOS
14:19<Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: thee is the dative/accusative of thou
14:20<Eddi|zuHause>and possibly buggy there
14:20<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: doesn't make much sense either
14:21<Rubidium>ofcourse not ;)
14:21<Rubidium>where art thou would be more correct ;)
14:21<__ln__>it would make sense to allow panning the map with shift+scrollwheel or something.
14:21<__ln__>on any platform.
14:23<Eddi|zuHause><Rhamphoryncus> Noob junction! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Tower18NorthboundWellsPinkLine.jpg http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:CTA_loop_junction.jpg <-- this kind of junction is pretty effective as long as the distance between two vehicles is significantly longer than their length
14:23<SpComb>you have right-click drag for scrolling the viewport
14:23<Rhamphoryncus>Yes yes, I know
14:23<Rhamphoryncus>It's essentially a tram anyway, which does that everywhere
14:23<SpComb>__ln__: or are you trying to use some kind of touch gestures for scrolling?
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14:24<__ln__>SpComb: no, i purchased a logitech mouse which has a tilting scrollwheel which therefore allows horizontal scrolling as well.
14:25<SpComb>two-finger scrolling in viewports might be fun
14:25<SpComb>with the new XInput multitouch extensions!
14:26<Eddi|zuHause>http://maps.google.de/maps?oe=UTF-8&um=1&ie=UTF-8&q=berlin+ostkreuz&fb=1&gl=de&hq=ostkreuz&hnear=0x47a84e373f035901:0x42120465b5e3b70,Berlin&cid=0,0,12235437780684510785&ei=qDNiT9ekEMqQswabp7noBQ&sa=X&oi=local_result&ct=image&ved=0CB0Q_BI <-- can do much more crazy stuff with "real" junctions ;)
14:26<__ln__>yes, i also would like to do something with the horizontal scrolling ability of the apple touchpad.
14:27<Eddi|zuHause>__ln__: like i said, there should be a setting what the scroll wheel does
14:28<SpComb>but settings are bad :(
14:31<__ln__>Eddi|zuHause: curiously enough, there is a setting (even on windows), but when i choose the function to be "scroll the map", the mouse wheel doesn't do anything at all anymore -- not even vertically.
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14:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: translators * r24030 /trunk/src/lang/ (danish.txt french.txt lithuanian.txt unfinished/basque.txt):
14:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
14:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: basque - 16 changes by Thadah
14:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: danish - 16 changes by mgarde
14:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: french - 6 changes by OliTTD
14:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: lithuanian - 47 changes by Stabilitronas
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14:51<__ln__>i can notice how shocked everyone is by this
14:53<Eddi|zuHause>__ln__: it was never really tested, i guess
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15:17<Eddi|zuHause>http://www.bahnfotokiste.de/berlin/ostkreuz/ostkreuz_15.html <- "this was the last train who drove on these tracks" :p
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15:26<Rubidium>I'm happy that my train didn't drive on such tracks ;)
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15:45<MNIM>*which
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16:26<andythenorth>what am I knowing?
16:26<supermop>maggie gyllenhall is expecting?
16:27<@Alberth>the answer to the question of life, the universe, and everything.
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17:11<@Alberth>we may never know what he knows :)
17:11<@Alberth>good night all
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17:49<xiong>Is there an issue with loading too many station NewGRFs? I can imagine some sort of running-out-of-short-integer-ID conflict.
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17:53<frosch123>i think there is a limit of 32 station classes
17:53<frosch123>(station classes are the categories in the station gui)
17:54<frosch123>also there is a limit on the different types of stations graphics you can use within the same stations
17:54<supermop>i think if you go other that stations start to get lumped together in a class?
17:54<supermop>*over that?
17:54<frosch123>no idea
17:55<@Yexo>yes, they all go in the default (first) class
17:55<supermop>i had that happen once with my grf+isr+japan stations + something
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18:02<@Terkhen>good night
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18:12<@peter1138>someone™ needs to increase that limit
18:12<@peter1138>it's a gui limit
18:12<@Yexo>isn't the station class also stored in the map?
18:12<@peter1138>no
18:13<frosch123>i think i was in fact working on it while working on fs#4967
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18:13<@peter1138>it's stored in the extra array in the station class
18:14<frosch123>yeah, newgrfs cannot even query it
18:14<frosch123>it is really only gui
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18:16<@Yexo>so would http://devs.openttd.org/~yexo/stat_class.diff be enough?
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18:17<frosch123>likely, unless you want to turn it into a uint32 :)
18:17<@peter1138>more than 8 bits would require messing with parameter stuffing
18:18<frosch123>ah, the build command uses it?
18:18<xiong>Well, I seem to have 31 different sets in the GUI. Some NewGRFs provide more than one, of course.
18:18<@Yexo>yep
18:18<xiong>... and it looks as though a couple of them are getting lumped together.
18:19<@Yexo>xiong: current limit is 32, but the "waypoints" class is included, so 31 different sets in the gui sounds about right
18:19<xiong>Ah.
18:19<@peter1138>oh, that index is never saved
18:19<@peter1138>not even on the map
18:19<@peter1138>erm
18:19<@peter1138>not even in the station, heh
18:20<@peter1138>the station spec list keeps a direct reference to the station spec
18:20<xiong>Well, with waypoints that makes 32. But perhaps there's another invisible/default class that puts me over the limit. I guess 'Default Station' should be one.
18:21<@peter1138>it's stored as grfid / index within grffile in savegames
18:21<@Yexo>as it should :)
18:21<xiong>You say all the excess should get lumped into the first set?
18:21<@peter1138>i must've been thinking that day ;p
18:21<@peter1138>yes
18:21<@peter1138>they do
18:21<@peter1138>Yexo, make it 256 ;)
18:21<@peter1138>we have scrolling madness these days
18:22<xiong>It seems in the first set I have, besides the tiles that belong there, the Default and also the VAST paths.
18:22<@peter1138>there's a "bug"
18:22<@peter1138>in that when all the classes are full, the name of the first class is changed
18:23<@peter1138>it should stay as Default really
18:23<@Yexo>yep, I noticed that too
18:23<@Yexo>seems there is a limit of 255 custom station tiles
18:23<@Yexo>having 256 classes really makes no sense
18:23<@peter1138>no
18:23<xiong>Well, I'm willing to accept that I've been greedy. If the only difficulty is that the various platforms and tiles don't list as they quite should, I shouldn't complain.
18:23<@peter1138>255 *per station*
18:24<@Yexo>hmm, oh ;)
18:24<xiong>Perhaps the set limit in the GUI really is 31?
18:24<@peter1138>it's 32
18:24<@peter1138>but one slot is taken up by the hidden waypoint class
18:24<@peter1138>that was already said
18:24<xiong>Okay, well, then why am I overflowing by 2?
18:24<@peter1138>?
18:25<xiong>Yes, 1 for the waypoints and 1 for Default -- the 'basic' station. I accept that. Together with the 31 sets I have loaded, that makes 33. But *2* sets are overflowing.
18:25<@peter1138>31 station sets is not the same as 31 station classes
18:25<@peter1138>many sets have a few classes
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18:26<xiong>Okay, let's call them classes. I dislike that word; it's too heavily overloaded. I refer to entries in the station GUI, not subentries; and not to the number of NewGRFs.
18:26<@peter1138>the max in the station gui is 31
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18:26<@peter1138>(because of the hidden waypoint class)
18:27<@peter1138>default is not hidden
18:27<@Yexo>xiong: both the newgrf spec and the openttd code refer to that as "station classes", so it makes sense to use that word
18:27<xiong>It's not hidden... but it's not installable. It's builtin.
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18:27<@peter1138>it's still in the list
18:27<@peter1138>and newgrfs *can* use the default class
18:28<xiong>Ah, but it is *not*. The default station currently shows as a subclass of the Czech station class.
18:28<Ricaz>Hello, can anyone tell me why I can't fund a bank? It just says "... can only be built in towns".
18:28<@peter1138>yes
18:28<@peter1138>because...
18:28<@peter1138>22:22 <@peter1138> there's a "bug"
18:28<@peter1138>22:22 <@peter1138> in that when all the classes are full, the name of the first class is changed
18:28-!-Richard [4da45a2b@ircip3.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd
18:28<@peter1138>"first" == default
18:29<@Yexo>Ricaz: you have to build it over some houses
18:29<@Yexo>so what's a good station class limit? 64? 128? 256?
18:29<Richard>hello i have a problem
18:29<frosch123>Yexo: what's the limit of the command?
18:30<xiong>Okay... so you're saying that no matter how many classes over the limit I've tried to load, I will only ever see 31 classes in the list... therefore the calculation is moot. I understand.
18:30<@peter1138>256 is the command limit
18:30<@Yexo>frosch123: 8 bits, so 256
18:30<Richard>i have 5000 vehicles and i will more
18:30<Ricaz>Yexo: I tried almost all tiles in the town, same message.
18:30<frosch123>so, yeah, 256 makes sense
18:30<@Yexo>Ricaz: do you use any industry newgrfs?
18:30<Ricaz>Nope
18:31<Ricaz>Wait
18:31<Ricaz>Ah, now I get it
18:31<@Yexo>Richard: I think you mean you "want more", not you "will more"
18:31<xiong>I think the current limit is not wrong. I see the evidence of my greed. I have Japanese, Czech, Canadian, US, and several generic stations -- and that's just for pax.
18:31<@Yexo>Richard: and there is currently no way around the 5000-vehicle limit except by changing the source code and recompiling
18:31<frosch123>night
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18:32<xiong>Now I have to go grind. Thanks for the illumination.
18:32*Yexo is going to try and fit as many station newgrfs in one game as possible now, just to see how the gui looks :p
18:33<@peter1138>xiong, it's a leftover from when the gui code couldn't handle more than 32 items
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18:37<Ricaz>Somehow, there are no woods in my map. Why is this? Can I fix it?
18:38<Zuu>You can plant trees
18:38<@Yexo>Ricaz: you didn't make them invisble by accident? press ctrl+x to check
18:39<Ricaz>No, there are no woods at all.
18:39<Ricaz>Can you harvest wood from regular trees?
18:42<@peter1138>what landscape tyoe?
18:42<@peter1138>*type
18:42<Ricaz>Temperate
18:42<CIA-1>OpenTTD: yexo * r24031 /trunk/src/newgrf_station.h: -Feature: increase the station class limit from 32 to 256
18:42<Ricaz>I have lots of paper industries
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18:43<@peter1138>paper, in temperate?
18:43<V453000>temperate doesnt sound like paper stuff
18:43<V453000>unless you use some industry newgrf
18:44<@Yexo>if you have paper industries in temperate you must have an industry newgrf
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18:46<@Yexo>good night all
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21:02<Maoman>Hey everyone. I'm new to the forums with a question about train efficiency. I actually posted a topic on the forums, but I didn't notice the chat function until after I posted it.
21:03<Maoman>Hopefully everyone isn't just afk. :/
21:07<Maoman>I've been browsing the wiki (mainly) and a bit on the forums to try and find a list of different ways to merge multiple train lines together, like the lists for stations (http://wiki.openttd.org/Railway_Stations) and junctions (which is spread over multiple pages). Unfortunately, I can't seem to find any. Out of room...
21:07<Maoman>Before I continue, i'll ask: IS there such a list of ways to merge multiple lines efficiently?
21:09<@planetmaker>http://wiki.openttdcoop.org/Junctionary_-_All <-- maybe you find some interesting stuff there, Maoman
21:10<Maoman>>:I Hit the wrong damn key and refreshed the page. Can I have that link again? Sorry.
21:11<@planetmaker>http://wiki.openttdcoop.org/Junctionary_-_All <-- maybe you find some interesting stuff there, Maoman
21:12<Maoman>Thanks, I'll look around there for a bit
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21:13<@planetmaker>you also may find interesting to look at some of the savegames in the public server archive found on that page
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21:17<Maoman>Alrighty. My main issue right now is trying to get multiple lanes (six or so), each with 2 or 3 trains each (starting small) to go smoothly into a hub station, so i don't need dedicated stations for each and every line, at the hub (six trains, six stations, etc?)
21:21<Maoman>:/ All these merges are wayyy bigger than anything I can do, yet. As such, the screenshots make little sense to me.
21:21<@planetmaker>the get some games form the public server archive. Have a look at them. Play around with the designs
21:22<@planetmaker>join servers. play. Look how others do stuff
21:22<@planetmaker>experiment
21:22<@planetmaker>I'm biased, but I'll recommend the #openttdcoop welcome server
21:23<Maoman>I haven't tried any kind of multiplayer. Tycoon games have always been a single player thing to me, so when I heard about multiplayer in openttd, it kinda put me off. lol
21:23<@planetmaker>well. That's where the _coop_ part can come in :-P
21:24<Maoman>True. Thanks for your help
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21:29<Ricaz>It feels like - in a 'competitive' game - that the first company to establish tons of airports is the one to quickly take a massive lead.
21:29<Ricaz>(I only just started playing this game today)
21:35<@planetmaker>unless planes are forbidden, limited, not yet available or prohibitively expensive
21:36<Ricaz>We've been running for about 30 years soon, and my company has an income of about $10.000.000 because of planes ._.
21:38<@planetmaker>oh, and depends on the aircraft newgrf used (if any)
21:39<@planetmaker>and airport newgrf (if any)
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21:39<@planetmaker>and the infrastructure maintenance costs for airports (if any)
21:39<Maoman>lol make a couple air ports and send a train all the way across the map, and you're gold.
21:39<@planetmaker>thus: complain to your host, Ricaz
21:39<@planetmaker>Maoman: yes. usually
21:40<Pikka>it's also about town growth, but I usually get ignored or shushed when I say that :)
21:41*planetmaker hugs Pikka
21:41<Pikka>hello planetmaker
21:41<Pikka>what's cookin'?
21:42<@planetmaker>a night with little sleep it seems ;-)
21:42<Pikka>what watch?
21:43<@planetmaker>my clock tells me it's about 2:43
21:43<Pikka>such watch!
21:43<@planetmaker>maybe even a swatch
21:44<Pikka>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Th0G8rkhBqg
21:45<Maoman>People never seem to know about the Swatch's Croatian brother
21:45<@planetmaker>oh, I fear I have a gap in my education there
21:47<@planetmaker>but I see you enjoy excitement journeys through the English language "varieties" ;-)
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22:06<Maoman>After trying several saves that all told me they wouldn't work, for various reasons, I found one that loaded, but the trains never move, they just stay in the same spot, reversing direction rapidly.
22:12<@planetmaker>which?
22:12<Maoman>One of the really old games, number 10. http://wiki.openttdcoop.org/PublicServer:Archive_-_Games_01_-_10
22:13<Maoman>Any newer ones tell me files are missing, and online content can't seem to find the files
22:26<@planetmaker>hm, not all files are in the online content, indeed
22:26<@planetmaker>http://www.openttdcoop.org/wiki/GRF (Version 8.0)
22:27<@planetmaker>but which of the games do you mean (they all have a direct link)
22:32<Maoman>Heres the link http://wiki.openttdcoop.org/PublicServer:Archive_-_Games_01_-_10#gameid_10
22:32<Maoman>I figured saying "number 10" was enough. lol
22:33<Maoman>And I had already tried installing that file you linked to. It doesn't seem to make a difference, but then, I wouldn't be surprised if I'm doing something wrong. Took me like half an hour to figure out how to install the 32bpp mod.
22:45<@planetmaker>well. The 32bpp (as in 1.1.x) is also ... not user friendly. That zip file just needs unpacking. in the data folder of openttd. that's all
22:50<Maoman>That's what I did, and It didn't seem to help. :s
22:52<Maoman>Game number 19 (http://wiki.openttdcoop.org/PublicServer:Archive_-_Games_11_-_20#gameid_19) almost works.... some of the trains work, some of them still sit there in the same spot, reversing direction rapidly. All other vehicles work.
22:59<@planetmaker>I really suggest to rather use the newer saves...
22:59<@planetmaker>and there seem to be jams in some
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23:26<Pikka>mmm, jam
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---Logclosed Fri Mar 16 00:00:54 2012