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#openttd IRC Logs for 2012-03-16

---Logopened Fri Mar 16 00:00:54 2012
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06:32<Carlos>hi, does anyone know if chill's patch pack will be made ready for r24xxx ?
06:32<Carlos>the most recent version seems to be for r22555 or something
06:42<Pikka>I imagine it will be updated at some point, Carlos
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06:46<Carlos>thanks, would be nice to have the full pack ready again
06:47<Eddi|zuHause>i imagine it either gets updated or dies in the next few months
06:49<Carlos>cargodist and the current trunk might be running away faster than the patchpack can keep up, right ?
06:49<MNIM>the latter would be really sad.
06:50<Ammler>cargodist? is that sill maintained?
06:50<Eddi|zuHause>my estimate is that, if Chill has enough time on its hand, he will throw everything away, and start over with a new set of patches
06:50<Carlos>i tried to apply it to a r24xxx but there where a lot of failed hunks, including completely missing or redundant source files
06:50<Eddi|zuHause>yes, cargodist is still actively developed
06:51<Ammler>so it "survived" yacd :-)
06:51<Carlos>cargodist is the most important piece of the pack anyway, imo
06:51<Carlos>is there a big difference between cargodist and yacd ?
06:52<Ammler>yacd was "stable"
06:52<Pikka>stables are for horses, I say
06:53<Carlos>ah I just read it, yacd is for cargo with specific destinations
06:53<Ammler>but the gameplay difference was that yacd was indpendent from network
06:53<Eddi|zuHause>each one has its own shortcomings. they had fundamental design differences
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06:59<Carlos>need to go, thanks for the info
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07:46<fonsinchen>Yes, I'm still working on cargodist.
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07:47<V453000>been a while o_O
07:47<fonsinchen>And I think the approach with "offline" calculation of the routing scheme is actually better than YACD's "inline" routing.
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07:48<Eddi|zuHause>i do think that a mixture between "industry-based" and "network-based" destinations would be preferable
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07:48<fonsinchen>How would you mix those concepts?
07:49<Eddi|zuHause>like YACD did, drop (a part of) the production if the predetermined destination is not connected
07:49<fonsinchen>It's been a while since I wrote anything here, but I was on IRC sometimes.
07:50<Eddi|zuHause>better spend your time developing, not talking on irc :p
07:51<fonsinchen>That wouldn't be a mix, but the "industry-based" approach ...
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07:51<Ammler>but he first needs to know in which direction :-P
07:51<fonsinchen>There are a lot of people who like the network-based approach.
07:51<Eddi|zuHause>yes, you make predetermined destinations for 50% of the produced cargo, and network-based for the other 50%
07:52<Eddi|zuHause>not sure if that could ever work in cargodist
07:53<fonsinchen>Well, I could somehow integrate the destination selection of YACD and "reserve" some cargo for predetermined destination. Only if the linkgraph finds that those are connected, the cargo is "unlocked"
07:53<fonsinchen>Would be possible.
07:53<fonsinchen>However, first I have some other things to do.
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07:53<Eddi|zuHause>different topic: one of the biggest criticisms about cargodist i heard was that the "water flowing" approach doesn't have any way to prevent cargo from going in circles
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07:54<fonsinchen>Cargo doesn't go in circles. The routing algorithm prevents that.
07:54<Eddi|zuHause>especially in overcrowded networks (which is kinda the default)
07:55<fonsinchen>If you see a circular routing somewhere please send me the save (and hurry up, as the station GUI will crash immediately then).
07:55<Eddi|zuHause>i don't mean the routes, but the individual cargo packets
07:55<fonsinchen>(there is one exception: illogical transfer orders as in my "quiz")
07:55<Eddi|zuHause>assuming you don't store the destination in the packet
07:55<fonsinchen>also the cargopackets cannot go in circles as long as the routes are fairly stable.
07:57<fonsinchen>I don't store the destinations in the packets, but the flow plans are set up in a way that there cannot be any circles.
07:59<fonsinchen>My plan of action at the moment is 1. Support "no loading" and 2. Make linkgraph calculation time depend on the size of the component and the accuracy being requested.
07:59<fonsinchen>With 2. I'll considerably shorten the delay between changes in the game and changes in the routing scheme.
08:00<fonsinchen>However those things will keep me busy for some months.
08:00<Eddi|zuHause>just get it to trunk by next christmas :)
08:01<fonsinchen>I actually think the stuff in the stable branch is ready for trunk.
08:01<fonsinchen>Those optimizations can also be implemented later on.
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08:44<Scuddles>http://i.imgur.com/bN9iw.png
08:44<Eddi|zuHause>"honey, i shrinked the tender"?
08:44<Scuddles>yis
08:45<@planetmaker>shrink shrank shrunk ;-)
08:46<Eddi|zuHause>whatever :p
08:47<Eddi|zuHause>leo also gives "shrunken"
08:47<Pikka>adjective
08:47<Eddi|zuHause>"to shrink | shrank/shrunk, shrunk/shrunken |"
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08:47<Pikka>I guess
08:48<Pikka>sounds odd to my dialect though
08:48<Scuddles>these are going in pj1k pikka said so
08:48<Pikka>so...
08:49<Scuddles>there he said it
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09:06<@Belugas>hello
09:12<Scuddles>hi im scuddles and I have an unhealthy attraction to bubblecars, smoke deflectors, belpaire fireboxes, dual ended single unit locos and 0-8-0T european tank locos and mallets
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09:18<@Belugas>good for you
09:19<Eddi|zuHause>i offer these then: http://www.saechsische-schmalspurfahrzeuge.de/loks/ivk/ivk-132.jpg
09:24<dihedral>hello
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09:42<Scuddles>Eddi|zuHause: That is pretty fancy
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10:46<NGC3982>cute photo.
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11:01<Pikka>cool, can't update UKRS2+ on bananas either. :)
11:03<Scuddles>BONONOS
11:03<Pikka>oui
11:04<Scuddles>Pense à ranger tes tripes je passe dans ton dos mais je ne suis pas ta bonne
11:07<@planetmaker>na toll. und wenn jetzt jeder irgendwelchen Blödsinn in irgendeiner Sprach brabbelt können wir Babylon Konkurenz machen.
11:07<@planetmaker>Thus: English only
11:07*Rhamphoryncus is playing UKRS2 right now :D
11:11<Pikka>there's an update, but not a major one.
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11:20<Scuddles>ukrs2 is so 2011
11:21<Rhamphoryncus>It's 1834 here ;)
11:21<Scuddles>wat
11:22<Pikka>1834 choo choos
11:22<Pikka>I hope you have inflation turned off
11:22<Scuddles>enjoy quadrapleheaded locos and such, har har
11:22<Scuddles>and horses
11:23<Rhamphoryncus>Yeah, I did remember this time
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11:23<Rhamphoryncus>I'm pondering quadrupleheaded right now.. it would give me more throughput
11:23<Scuddles>throughpoot
11:24<Rhamphoryncus>My wee little pax line is very close to saturation. I'm having to tweak signal positions to avoid trains jamming on the hills
11:24<Scuddles>enjoy 12kN cramptons D:
11:24<Pikka>do you?
11:24<Scuddles>that happens to me often, especially with breakdowns on and when they break down right before a gradient
11:25<Rhamphoryncus>realistic acceleration has nasty worst-case behaviour there :/
11:25<Scuddles>never building on hills again expecting trains to clear it just because they have inertia
11:28*Rhamphoryncus builds a 4 consist train just to see how it performs.. and on a fluke perfectly fits the stations he's built
11:28<Rhamphoryncus>oh, fits *one* of the stations, heh
11:32*Rhamphoryncus watches it laugh at a puny hill
11:32<Rhamphoryncus>Once again proving: BIGGER. IS. BETTER.
11:34<MNIM>heh. only built one quadrupelheaded once. was 28 long and it had its' own special line.
11:34<Pikka>or at least that more powerful is more powerful
11:35<Pikka>MNIM: probably wasn't quadruple headed http://users.tt-forums.net/pikka/wiki/index.php?title=2-2-0_Planet though, was it?
11:36<MNIM>yeah, it was. carried a freight train full of wood.
11:36<Pikka>oh :) and 28 long?
11:36<Rhamphoryncus>Pikka: power to weight is the same. I'm literally just gluing 4 trains together. The advantage is it averages across hills
11:36<Pikka>I see
11:36<MNIM>yeah. why, too many locs?
11:37<Rhamphoryncus>Rather than 1 in 2 tiles being a hill it's 2 in 8 tiles
11:37<Pikka>well, I initially thought you meant a 28 tile long train
11:37<Pikka>which would be a bit much for 4 planets.
11:37<MNIM>yeah, that's what a meant, 28 tiles
11:38<Eddi|zuHause>was that before openttd's acceleration model got tweaked?
11:39<Pikka>flatland and original acceleration? :)
11:40<Pikka>any road up
11:40*Pikka should to bed
11:40<MNIM>no, realistic accelleration and four centennials from the 2cc.
11:40<Pikka>oh
11:40<Pikka>well it wasn't quadruple headed planets then. :)
11:41<Pikka>which is what I said.
11:41<Pikka>goodnight gentlemens.
11:41<MNIM>planets? 0-o
11:41<Pikka>"probably wasn't quadruple headed http://users.tt-forums.net/pikka/wiki/index.php?title=2-2-0_Planet though, was it?"
11:41<Eddi|zuHause>i guess MNIM completely ignored the link
11:41<Pikka>link?
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11:42<MNIM>oooh. I thought you meant locs
11:42<MNIM>yeah, no ancient steam locs. :P
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11:43<Eddi|zuHause>who built 1A locomotives? around here, early locomotives were either 1A1 or B
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11:55<Rubidium>lovely... pikka's gone again... why does he always leave before I return from work ;)
11:55<Eddi|zuHause>i blame timezones :p
11:56<Eddi|zuHause>i never remember: does summertime make the difference bigger or smaller?
11:56<Rubidium>it increases for us w.r.t. UTC
11:56<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker had a *wrong language* mode
11:56<Eddi|zuHause>in the forum
11:57<Rubidium>but then for them it'd decrease w.r.t UTC as they goto winter time
11:57<Rubidium>so the difference should decrease
11:57<Scuddles>such is how a pikkaman works
11:58<andythenorth>pikka pikka boo
11:58<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth spent too much time around kids lately
11:58<Scuddles>once in a while he stays up until later than this though, if you come around at here often enough you'll probably see him one day
11:58<Rubidium>then pikkaman shouldn't complain that he can't upload UKRS to bananas yet ;)
11:58<Scuddles>such is life in the pikkazone
12:02<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause, it was a deliberate mode switch
12:07<ffpp>hi, the templatebased train replacement patch is up in a first version
12:07<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: this one? http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=58906&p=1001471#p1001471
12:07<ffpp>I dug up the old thread about it and realized that I actually forgot about some suggestions made there :>
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12:09<@planetmaker>oh, indeed not, Eddi|zuHause . Thx
12:11<__ln__>Eddi|zuHause: a rule for remembering it: both in the spring and autumn, the clocks are adjusted toward the summer.
12:12<Eddi|zuHause>__ln__: that was not what i meant
12:14<__ln__>i see
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12:43<Eddi|zuHause>soo... anybody "excited" about the presidential election?
12:44<+glx>which one ?
12:44<Eddi|zuHause>pick one :)
12:44<Eddi|zuHause>germany pseudo-elects theirs on sunday
12:45<+glx>the campaign for ours starts on monday
12:45<Eddi|zuHause>just more than a thousand people eligible to vote
12:45<Eddi|zuHause>and the winner is already predetermined
12:46<Eddi|zuHause>glx: is that the one where the major european leaders have decided to boycott the opposition candidate?
12:47<+glx>yup
12:47<+glx>but recently the other one said something with similar effects :)
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13:29<andythenorth>projectile sick
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13:40<__ln__>would someone be very upset if shift+mousewheel panned the map, without enabling any settings first?
13:40<Zuu>do you mean shift + third button or shift + scrolling?
13:42<__ln__>shift + scrolling
13:42<Zuu>To move north/south by spinning the wheel?
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13:43<Zuu>That wouldn't upset me as I usually play OpenTTD with a device that doesn't have a scroll wheel. :-)
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13:43<__ln__>and east/west by scrolling horizontally
13:44<Eddi|zuHause>__ln__: better to figure out how to specify that in hotkeys.cfg
13:44<Zuu>Reminds me of my patch to allow zooming in out by holding the middle mouse button and moving the mouse.
13:45<__ln__>Eddi|zuHause: are you saying the user should manually edit a config file in order to pan the map?
13:45<Eddi|zuHause>__ln__: no
13:48<Zuu>For new users the default hotkey.cfg settings could have it enabled.
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14:00<__ln__>and for old users not?
14:00<Eddi|zuHause>__ln__: i mean figure out how to query mouse actions as "key", and then allow the user to decide whether he wants to pan the map with scrollwheel, 5-finger-movement, asdw or whatever
14:01<Eddi|zuHause>what to use as default, and how to achieve gui-modification of hotkeys is then a separate discussion
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14:05<__ln__>i can't say that's a bad idea, but adding the one extra layer of abstraction for a feature that nobody actively wants probably means nobody will implement it that way.
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14:37<Wolf01>hello
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14:41<@Alberth>moin
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14:42<Ricaz>If coal and a power station can reach eachother, then what?
14:42<Ricaz>how do you transport the coal to the powerstation?
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14:43<@Alberth>build a station out of reach of the power station
14:44<@Alberth>however, you won't make much money, so probably not worth the trouble
14:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: translators * r24032 /trunk/src/lang/ (4 files in 2 dirs):
14:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
14:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: frisian - 13 changes by Fopper
14:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: korean - 1 changes by junho2813
14:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: norwegian_nynorsk - 1 changes by mantaray
14:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: welsh - 15 changes by kazzie
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14:55<@Terkhen>hello
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15:06<Rhamphoryncus>Ricaz: distances are based on the stations, not the industries
15:07<Ricaz>Ah, you make more money depending on the distance?
15:07<@Belugas>the bigger the distance. the more money indeed
15:07<@Belugas>up to a certain point
15:07<@Belugas>of course
15:08<Rhamphoryncus>It's linear to distance (twice as far gets twice as much), but is reduced by time spent in a more complicated way
15:08<@Belugas>speed of delivery is also to be considered
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15:15*andythenorth ponders pondering
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15:17*andythenorth ponders the sad death of 8bpp :(
15:18<Rhamphoryncus>sad?
15:19<V453000>death?
15:19<andythenorth>perhaps reports of its death are exagerated
15:20<V453000>the artists who like pixel art will probably not abandon the "limited" palette so quickly
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15:20<V453000>at least for me the point of pixel art is to do wonders with limited possibilities as resolution and colour depth
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15:21<Rhamphoryncus>Yeah, you can do wonders, but I've also come to realize that most of my complaints about graphics can be traced to the 8bit palette
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15:21<@Alberth>if you do anything tron-like, you don't even need the full 8bpp :)
15:21<andythenorth>yeah, but 32bpp will become de-facto, because it's more realistic
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15:22<andythenorth>and many of our so-called artists seem to value realism
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15:22<andythenorth>perhaps they have not had magritte 101
15:22<V453000>their problem tbh
15:22<@Alberth>andythenorth: but can you make nice pixel art other than by rendering for 32bpp?
15:23<andythenorth>voxels!
15:23<V453000>:D
15:23<Rhamphoryncus>ooh voxels
15:23<andythenorth>qubicals!
15:23<andythenorth>blearch
15:23<@Alberth>I have voxels too, but they are invisible :p
15:23<andythenorth>toys look better with limited palettes
15:23<@Alberth>and quite big :)
15:24<V453000>im staying with the true pixel art. Definitely not drawing in higher resolutions, neither with more colours
15:26<@Alberth>V453000: many people will play the game in higher resolution, I suspect, to compensate for the high resolution of their monitor
15:26<andythenorth>how many colours are needed anyway? http://www.bricklink.com/catalogColors.asp
15:26<V453000>they can, not my problem :)
15:29<andythenorth>also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Treachery_of_Images
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15:46<andythenorth>roadtypes!
15:46<andythenorth>multi-stop docks!
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15:48<Wolf01>does anybody of you have a buffalo nas and knows how to tweak the httpd.conf to add some aliases and activate at least the rewrite module?
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16:03<@Alberth>quak
16:04<frosch123>hai albert :)
16:06<Wolf01>hi frosch
16:07<frosch123>Ciao Wolf :)
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16:36<andythenorth>bibble bobble
16:36<andythenorth>and booble
16:36<andythenorth>is it April 1st yet?
16:37<@Alberth>almost
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16:48<rane>what's a good resource if i want to learn to build a mainline that has 2 railroads to both directions
16:48<rane>i'm sure you have to account for balancing them somehow
16:49<TWerkhoven2[l]>wiki.openttdcoo.org
16:49<TWerkhoven2[l]>mind they play without breakdowns enabled
16:49<rane>disabled
16:49<rane>oh
16:49<rane>yeah
16:49<rane>i know that
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16:50<TWerkhoven2[l]>duh, yes
16:50<rane>i got some convincing arguments why breakdowns disabled makes sense
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17:01<Eddi|zuHause>breakdowsns are probably an even more broken feature than inflation
17:02<andythenorth>broken breakdowns :o
17:02<Eddi|zuHause>exactly :)
17:03<andythenorth>what will you fix about them?
17:03<Eddi|zuHause>i won't fix breakdowns
17:03<rane>not all broken features can be fixed without removing them
17:03<Rubidium>pff... breakdowns aren't broken
17:04<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: have you heard a horse break down yet? :p
17:04<Rubidium>spontanious combustion
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17:08<@Alberth>Eddi|zuHause: the newgrf author inventing horses should have realized the problem, and fix it by means of a newgrf spec change
17:08<Eddi|zuHause>the most broken parts about breakdowns include: a breakdown is guaranteed to occur within 256 days, there is no way to reduce that. a breakdown will always cause a full stop, even for multiheaded trains. there is no way to design your network so broken down vehicles are avoided by using parallel tracks
17:10<andythenorth>did you mention RVs yet?
17:10<andythenorth>articulated ones (for all the known reasons) won't go round a break down
17:10<andythenorth>also...broken down ships should....drift
17:10<andythenorth>off course
17:10<andythenorth>randomly
17:11<Eddi|zuHause>and hit the cliffs? :p
17:12<andythenorth>maybe
17:13<SpComb>does anyone actually play with breakdowns and anything other than point-to-point tracks?
17:13<Rhamphoryncus>wait, 256 days is the cap?!
17:13<Eddi|zuHause>Rhamphoryncus: pretty sure
17:14*andythenorth plays with breakdowns
17:14<Rhamphoryncus>SpComb: nobody does because they suck
17:14<Rhamphoryncus>andythenorth: you are nobody :P
17:15<Rhamphoryncus>Would it be hard to make the pathfinder severely penalize broken down trains? That should be enough to make other trains go around
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17:16*Alberth plays with breakdowns too
17:16<Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: vehicles need to be inspected, by law, every 256 days. A breakdown in a multiheaded vehicle is always an event that is significant enough to stop the train, e.g. a broken air hose or so
17:16<rane>what's this called? http://cl.ly/3F3w121F1r0z2V3c070i
17:16<Rubidium>if it wasn't significant enough it would just continue and you wouldn't notice it was broken
17:17<@peter1138>:)
17:17<Rubidium>and even in the real world a broken train disrupts the stream of traffic significantly
17:18<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: but still, the other trains could be rerouted
17:18<@Alberth>Rhamphoryncus: the path finder does try to avoid other trains by default
17:18<Rhamphoryncus>rane: maaaagic
17:18<rane>openttdcoop network stuff is daunting :|
17:18<Rhamphoryncus>Alberth: it avoids trains in general. Does it especially avoid broken trains?
17:18<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: and the point is, the breakdown is guaranteed every 256 ticks _even though_ you regularly service it. you could check every week, but you still get that guaranteed breakdown
17:19<Rhamphoryncus>rane: that's actually a "prio" or priority merge
17:19<@Alberth>Rhamphoryncus: not that I am aware of
17:19<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: so servicing has hardly any effect
17:19<Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: really every 256 ticks?
17:19<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: and track layout has hardly any effect either
17:19<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: i meant days
17:20<@Alberth>rane: yes, they are insane in a good way
17:20<rane>it's also depressing me
17:20<Rhamphoryncus>rane: The coal train is coming through an entry pre-signal. That requires the block following to be empty and an exit or combo pre-signal in that block to be green
17:20<Eddi|zuHause>i can't play coop-style
17:20<Eddi|zuHause>i mean: i don't want to.
17:20<Rubidium>then I declare it a law to test the emergency brakes every 256 days ;)
17:21<@Alberth>rane: why? developing your own style is so much more fun than copying one
17:21<rane>yeah, i agree
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17:22<rane>Rhamphoryncus: i think i would have to see that in action to understand how it works
17:22<@Alberth>rane: you can also download the games they play
17:23<frosch123>lol, the template replacement guy started all his files with aaa_ :o
17:23<Rhamphoryncus>rane: the real trick is that if there are no exit or combo signals from a certain direction (not merely red but actually not present) then it behaves like an ordinary block signal
17:23<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: noticed that as well, but didn't really care enough to say anything :p
17:24<frosch123>probably a vim user considering how messed up the whitespace is
17:24<Rhamphoryncus>rane: so a train coming from the bridge merely has 3 block signals. They look like presignals but they're not.
17:24<Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: what ensures the 256 days?
17:25<rane>Rhamphoryncus: trains coming from which direction in that image have the priority?
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17:25<Rhamphoryncus>rane: the bridge
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17:25<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: afair there's a "breakdown counter", that gets initialized by a reliability table, reduced by 1 every day, randomly by 20, and breaks down when it hits 0
17:26<Rhamphoryncus>How does the percentage factor in?
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17:30<rane>Rhamphoryncus: thanks, i somewhat understand the concept better from these examples, http://wiki.openttdcoop.org/Priority
17:30<rane>might've missed some important signals from the previous image
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17:33<+michi_cc>Rubidium: Breakdown frequency is listed in http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=937910#p937910 and http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=933954#p933954
17:33<+michi_cc>Most important quote: "Servicing resets a vehicle's internal reliability score to the maximum, *but does not adjust the breakdown number*. This explains how vehicles can still break down just as they come out of the depot after being serviced."
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17:36<TaKeN>Hello
17:36<@Alberth>hi root
17:36<andythenorth>breakdown behaviour is tedious
17:37<andythenorth>I don't like turning breakdowns off
17:37<andythenorth>the game needs stuff like that
17:37<andythenorth>but the 'leave depot, breakdown' behaviour sucks :P
17:37<andythenorth>as does the frequent inability of vehicles to route to depots
17:37<TaKeN>there is any option to generate statistic of my servers ? i see on http://www.openttd.org/en/servers how many ppl is on and how many companies but i want statistic when is more ppl and when is less.. there is any option ?
17:38<@Yexo>you'll have to generate that yourself
17:38<TaKeN>because i restart my servers every 6, 10, 18, 22 and now i create a new one
17:38<@Yexo>tools that might help you is a library to connect to the admin port to query the current status
17:38<TaKeN>Yexo: aha :( so You don`t have stats for Yourself ?
17:38<@Yexo>I don't have a server
17:38<@Yexo>so no stats either :p
17:38<TaKeN>but for servers oin webpage
17:39<TaKeN>all servers i mean ;)
17:39<rane>breakdowns should be a mechanic that can be dealt with by playing smart, or something presents a trade off for the player where they get penalized with breakdowns if they take shortcut, something like that. i don't like randomness.
17:39<@Yexo>ah, not sure
17:39<@Yexo>don't think so
17:39<TaKeN>You don`t have stats all servers from http://www.openttd.org/en/servers
17:39<Rubidium>there's no history of those numbers
17:40<@Alberth>rane: it does by making you pay heavily if you don't take care of reliability of your vehicles
17:40<Rhamphoryncus>Breakdowns don't add any nuance to gameplay. You get that annoying noise, everything stops for a bit.
17:40<@Alberth>my trains are spaced out enough not to cause much trouble
17:40<andythenorth>it makes you consider depot placement, which can be interestingly hard in some places
17:40<Rhamphoryncus>If you have a hill and don't power your train enough to go from a standing start then everything stops for a long time.
17:40<andythenorth>and at the start of a game, breakdowns can be a company killer
17:42<@Alberth>Rhamphoryncus: sure, so make sure you have a sane train setup :p
17:42<@Alberth>like having less wagons :)
17:42<SpComb>collectd-openttd
17:42<SpComb>quick, someone write a plugin
17:43<@Alberth>SpComb it's called an AI, I think
17:43<SpComb>no, a collectd plugin to read from openttd admin port
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17:44<rane>can you avoid breakdowns by having multiple maintain orders, depending on length of the route? that might be interesting to manage, or maybe too much overhead
17:44<Eddi|zuHause>that reminds me, i wanted to factor the reliability into the maintenance costs
17:44<Rhamphoryncus>Alberth: which means I can't have both normal trains and mountain trains. The mountain trains aren't designed for better *speed* in the presence of hills. They have to be designed not to stop *at all*. I end up so overpowering that everything ignores hills.
17:44<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause pikka fakes that by using age as a proxy I think
17:45<Eddi|zuHause>not age, reliability. so you'll have an incentive to service while breakdowns are off
17:45<TaKeN>Yexo: what tools can check every 1 hour stats from all my 3 servers and put on www or something like this ?
17:46<@Yexo>TaKeN: there is no tool for that
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17:46<@Alberth>TaKeN: all general purpose programming languages, but you have to tell them how
17:47<Rhamphoryncus>rane: Nope, sufficient maintenance will not avoid breakdowns. At a certain point it has no more effect.
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17:49<TaKeN>oks
17:49<TaKeN>thanks guys
17:49<TaKeN>take care
17:49<TaKeN>cya around
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17:50<rane>are there hotkeys for choosing signal type? other than ctrl-click
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17:50<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: you could also adjust speed and power in line with reliability :P
17:51<Pulec>3 hours of plain, two players
17:51<Pulec>http://zoom.it/9WBB
17:52<Pulec>had the idea of building from one corner and transport everything that could be transported, than move on
17:56<andythenorth>good night
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18:32<Rhamphoryncus>Woops. Arable farms are, apparently, not great sources of plant fibres.
18:35<FLHerne>FIRS has too many kinds of farm
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18:38<Eddi|zuHause>Economies!
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18:40<FLHerne>Yes... I only have rail services to about 40 of the things :P
18:49<Eddi|zuHause>not what i meant
18:50<Rhamphoryncus>FIRS will ultimately let you select which set of industries is active
18:50<FLHerne>Ah, that
18:53<Rhamphoryncus>Ahh, tricky. First autorefit fails and you don't get the cargo.. because the industry isn't delivering it yet.
18:56<+michi_cc>If you rely extensively on autorefit, you might want to disable the "deliver only on demand" setting.
18:57<Rhamphoryncus>It should be fine. Just surprising.
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19:09<Eddi|zuHause>maybe autorefit should create "demand" for all eligible cargos
19:11<frosch123>that would rather break stuff
19:11<Eddi|zuHause>how?
19:11<frosch123>it should be possible to enable demand via the station gui
19:11<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: it would effectively call demand on everything
19:11<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: only if the current order has autorefit
19:11<frosch123>even if you do not want to transport the stuff
19:12<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: for all "normal" orders it'll be fine
19:12<frosch123>anyway, night :)
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19:33<Ricaz>I'm trying to figure out signals.
19:33<Ricaz>http://rcz.dk/files/openttd.png
19:34<Ricaz>This is a station I have built to test
19:34<Ricaz>But I'm unsure what signals to use where
19:35<Eddi|zuHause>put a path signal behind the platform (from train's direction)
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19:36<Ricaz>Hm? Let's start by the lower side
19:36<Ricaz>trains only run on the right track of the line
19:37<Eddi|zuHause>let's go along the inner track. you have lots of basic block signals along the track, that's alright
19:37<Eddi|zuHause>then you have a one-way path signal at the end of the track (with the red bar)
19:37<Eddi|zuHause>then the junction
19:38<+michi_cc>Ricaz: Enable "show reserved tracks" if you haven't yet. Helps for such stuff.
19:38<Eddi|zuHause>then the platform
19:38<Eddi|zuHause>then another junction
19:38<Ricaz>how michi_cc?
19:38<Eddi|zuHause>and get back to the inner track with the block signals
19:38<+michi_cc>Somewhere under Interface in the advanced settings.
19:38<Ricaz>well
19:38<Ricaz>the first 1W path signal is good?
19:38<Eddi|zuHause>yes
19:39<Eddi|zuHause>now add 2-way pathsignals to each platform
19:39<Ricaz>then I need more path signals after that one?
19:39<Eddi|zuHause>so that the train can see them from inside the station
19:39<Ricaz>oh so they need to face the opposite way
19:39<Ricaz>of the 1W one
19:39<Eddi|zuHause>yes
19:39<Ricaz>okay
19:40<Ricaz>and then?
19:41<Eddi|zuHause>then you're basically done
19:41<Eddi|zuHause>replicate that same setup for the outer track in the other direction
19:41<Ricaz>well if 6 trains come from that direction, will they properly slide into the station?
19:41<Ricaz>or do I need more paths?
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19:42<Eddi|zuHause>just let them drive for a while, you'll learn to see the bottlenecks :)
19:44<Ricaz>well this is one big bottleneck now lol
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19:46<Ricaz>now this happens:
19:46<Ricaz>http://rcz.dk/files/openttd2.png
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19:47<@Yexo>the signals facing the station have to be right next to each platform
19:47<@Yexo><michi_cc> Ricaz: Enable "show reserved tracks" if you haven't yet. Helps for such stuff. <_ this helps to spot why
19:48<Ricaz>I just did enable that, no difference :s
19:48<@Yexo>where do you expect the stopped train to go to?
19:48<Ricaz>I want it to go to a free slot
19:48<Ricaz>So I just need 12 path signals at eash side? :o
19:49<@Yexo>no, 6 at each side
19:49<+michi_cc>Ricaz: You can actually see the path on the exit of track A. I think with the TTD graphics that is easier to see.
19:50<Ricaz>ah they darken
19:50<Ricaz>Thanks, that helped a lot :D
19:51*FLHerne tries to merge lots of patches
19:52<FLHerne>Does anyone have an estimate on how long OTTD should take to compile? I need to sleep sometime :-(
19:52<@Yexo>Ricaz: http://devs.openttd.org/~yexo/screenshot.png
19:53<Ricaz>thanks Yexo, that is almost what I have now
19:53<@Yexo>FLHerne: depends a lot on your computer, but not very long
19:53<FLHerne>That was a completely pointless question, wasn't it? 8-)
19:53<@Yexo>well, yes :)
19:54<@Yexo>it takes 1m11s for me after a make clean
19:54<FLHerne>Given I've had 40 mins to 8 hours, I really should know better...
19:55<FLHerne>I've got one attempt compiling on each core to see what errors I get :P
19:56<Ricaz>How come I can't choose a road layout and Large size for the town I'm about to found?
19:57<@Yexo>not sure about the road layout
19:57<@Yexo>town sizes are only available in the scenario editor, when founding a town in game it's always "small"
19:57<Ricaz>Well, I can choose small, medium and random
19:57*FLHerne still can't get Cargodist and More Heightlevels to coexist :-(
19:58<Ricaz>for the roads I can change it in the advanced settings
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20:00<Ricaz>Is there a way to force a town to expand?
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20:01<FLHerne>In recent trunk, should there be a gap between 'Abandon Game' and 'Exit' in the save menu?
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20:02<Eddi|zuHause>FLHerne: i think that always was there
20:04<@Yexo>Ricaz: only in scenario editor
20:04<FLHerne>It isn't in Chill's Patchpack
20:04<Wolf01>'night
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20:05<FLHerne>Finally! my small patch collection (seems to) work :D
20:05<FLHerne>Bed now
20:05<@Terkhen>good night
20:05<FLHerne>Night
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20:10<GT>Give me your opinion on this: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=1001807#p1001807
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21:14<rane>is there a newgrf or something that adds hotkeys for signals?
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23:00<ix>Is there any way to set duration of time chat messages are displayed? I saw some patches mentioned when I googled for the topic, but couldn't find any such option in stable (debian amd64, 1.1.5-1).
23:02<ix>Could it be the network_chat_timeout variable in the config file, perhaps?
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23:22<xiong>Hey! CHIPS platforms actually work with FIRS cargoes!
23:22<xiong>I can see crates of ES stacked up. ISRS won't do that.
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---Logclosed Sat Mar 17 00:00:57 2012