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#openttd IRC Logs for 2012-03-17

---Logopened Sat Mar 17 00:00:57 2012
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01:16<andythenorth>monsieur le bird!
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02:39<Rubidium>ix: which messages exactly?
02:40<Pikka>@ andythenorth
02:40<Rubidium>Pikka: what's the version I'm supposed to enter for UKRS?
02:55<Rubidium>Pikka: it's uploaded now
02:55<Pikka>will I have the same problem when I try to update it?
02:56<Pikka>and the add-on set?
02:56<Rubidium>should be fine as well
02:56<Pikka>ripper :) thankyou
02:56<Pikka>I'll try and update them both in about an hour.
02:58<Rubidium>the problem was due to other code that was added to check for text files in the lang directory. However, when there was no directory for the txt file it would bail out
02:58<Rubidium>even when that's perfectly fine for the license.txt
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03:13<andythenorth>one grf can read another grf's parameters?
03:13<Pikka>yes andy
03:14*andythenorth was poking again at 'what newgrf params could be safely changed during game'
03:14<andythenorth>and the answer comes up 'none' again
03:14<andythenorth>how vexing
03:15<andythenorth>stuff like: livery 'realistic' / '1CC' / '2CC'
03:15<andythenorth>should just be safe to change
03:15<Rubidium>sounds likke andy really likes that "feature" in the specs ;)
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03:16<Pikka>other grfs reading the parameter doesn't, in itself, make it more or less safe though
03:16<Pikka>it's just a question of what the various grfs do with it :)
03:16<Rubidium>yes, OpenTTD has to support all "features" from TTDPatch, otherwise OpenTTD will always be bad
03:17<Rubidium>so this "feature" will make OpenTTD less bad
03:17<Pikka>which "feature"are you referring to, Rubidium?
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03:17<Rubidium>the "featue" that a NewGRF can poke into another NewGRF's settings and do all kinds of stuff depending on that
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03:18<Rubidium>thus exploding the configuration space and getting all kinds of interdependencies and lovely barely findable bugs
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03:19<Pikka>devs don't trust newgrf developers much, do they?
03:20<Pikka>I remember I had to argue with Lakie for about two days to stop him putting a switch in TTDPatch that enabled callback 36 (and defaulted to off).
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03:25<andythenorth>what I want is parameters *private to my fricking grf*
03:26<andythenorth>which can only be checked by varact 2, and only during known-safe calls
03:26<andythenorth>set by action 14 menus only
03:29<Pikka>well, all you have to consider is what the likelihood is of someone writing a grf which says "read andy's parameters then CRASHCRASHCRASH". it's probably not very high.
03:29<andythenorth>it's not me who considers it though :(
03:30<andythenorth>it's those who control the 'thou shalt not change newgrf *anything* in a running game'
03:30<Nat_aS>the HEQS and GRVTS give me random error messages but nothing ever crashes on them.
03:30<andythenorth>Nat_aS: did you raise a bug report?
03:30<Nat_aS>not sure if that's because I mix and match newgrifs into existing scenarios though.
03:30<Nat_aS>not bug reports, just error popups
03:30<Nat_aS>and I don't have it open now so I can't post it here
03:31*Nat_aS is the best user ever.
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03:31<Nat_aS>what IS the difference between GRVTS and HEQS?
03:31<Nat_aS>one have more things?
03:31<andythenorth>try them and see
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03:31<Pikka>it's about the same as the difference between the 2cc set and UKRS2...
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03:32<Pikka>completely different vehicles by completely different authors.
03:32<andythenorth>chalk, cheese
03:32<Nat_aS>well they both seem to have cargo trams, but GRVTS seems to have more things
03:32<Nat_aS>but they appear to share veichiles
03:32<Nat_aS>unless I'm doing it wrong
03:33<andythenorth>you're doing it wrong ;)
03:33*andythenorth goes back to pondering minor eye-candy livery options *that will require the player to start a new game*
03:35<Pikka>or set a config option and void their warranty
03:36<Nat_aS>maybe I should start over
03:36<Nat_aS>but I have built so much
03:36<Nat_aS>If I restarted I'd probably try making thinner tracks
03:36<Nat_aS>like see how efficant I could make single track layouts instead of quad track
03:36<Pikka>or you could have "minor eye-candy livery options" as vehicle refits rather than a global setting
03:37<Nat_aS>or actualy, my layout probably does not need to be quad track
03:37<Nat_aS>I am just over anticipating future growth.
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03:43*andythenorth ponders horridity
03:43<andythenorth>if...there was a way to set arbitrary minor vehicle properties
03:44<andythenorth>(instead of abusing cargo subtypes)
03:44<andythenorth>and if there was a way to configure the default values for
03:44<andythenorth>and a way to mass-set common defaults for all vehicles in a grf...
03:45<Nat_aS>newgrf's spoil you guys
03:45<Nat_aS>I remember when I made sprites for simutrans and was sad that I couldn't make half loaded or randomized cargo sprites
03:45<andythenorth>what about his / her / its spoil?
03:45<Nat_aS>so many options for everything
03:46<Nat_aS>what CAN'T newgrif's do?
03:46<andythenorth>but simutrans is XML :o
03:46<andythenorth>we have been working for years to achieve XML
03:46<andythenorth>on April 1, Rubidium and I are releasing XML-newgrfs
03:46<Nat_aS>well maybe they added better features, when I did it cars could only have 1cc and loaded and unloaded sprites.
03:46<andythenorth>XML will solve all problems!
03:46<Nat_aS>YAY XML!
03:47*Nat_aS is just an artist and does what the programer says is possible so :P
03:51<@Terkhen>good morning
03:51<Nat_aS>good evening.
03:57*andythenorth solves it
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03:57<Nat_aS>so why do we have to be compatible with TTDpatch?
03:57<Nat_aS>does anybody still use it?
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03:58<Nat_aS>i mean backwards compatibility is cool and all, but it seems like OTTD offers every advantage over it
03:58<andythenorth>some *highly influential* newgrf artists use it
03:58<Pikka>no, noone uses it
03:58<andythenorth>and it's *very* important that we keep maintaining compatibility, or they may stop releasing their work so frequently
03:58<Nat_aS>in other words some newgrif artists refuse to accept change?
03:58<andythenorth>famous newgrf releasers known to use it include SAC and wallyweb
03:59<Pikka>andythenorth: there is no compatibility with TTDPatch any more
03:59<andythenorth>also possibly MB, although he may have converted
03:59<Pikka>but what is "important" is that older grfs keep working in OpenTTD
04:00<andythenorth>unless there's a day where all the grfs die
04:00<andythenorth>maybe April 1 2014
04:00<Nat_aS>kinda like y2k?
04:00<Nat_aS>or that unix thing?
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04:01<Nat_aS>2038 was it?
04:02*andythenorth goes back to making trucks
04:02<Nat_aS>when the unix clock overflows 32 bits
04:02<Nat_aS>and any unix computer that has not upgraded to 64 will crash.
04:03<Pikka>mm trucks :)
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04:20*andythenorth wonders if BANDIT will get to r1000 before a release
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04:40<andythenorth>Alberth: consists :o
04:50<@Alberth>it's more like 'duplicate existing code', according to frosch
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04:50<andythenorth>ho ho
04:50<andythenorth>at least he tried ;)
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05:02<andythenorth>too much indirection
05:02<andythenorth>maybe I can indirect the indirection :P
05:04<Pikka>only indirectly
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05:26<andythenorth>more indirection = good
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05:29<Eddi|zuHause>indirection is like alcohol :p
05:31<andythenorth>it's always more fun later to read all the rules for conditionally constructing a string
05:31<andythenorth>instead of just writing the string
05:31<andythenorth>"but think how easy changes will be to the substrings!"
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05:35<andythenorth>writing out lots of times ('flat', 'coils', grey_metal') is obviously much better than 'flat-coils-grey_metal' :P
05:35<andythenorth>except maybe it's not :P
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05:40<Eddi|zuHause>it is, when you introduce translations
05:41<Eddi|zuHause>or autogeneration :)
05:44<andythenorth>or change the separators that you're later re-splitting on
05:44<andythenorth>or change the spec for generating graphics from filenames
05:47<Eddi|zuHause>i still have stomach pains because i used eval() in one of my last CETS commits
05:48<andythenorth>at least you didn't use it in publicly accessible methods in a production web app
05:48<andythenorth>unlike someone else here
05:48<Eddi|zuHause>but i didn't see a better way without lots of duplication
05:50<Eddi|zuHause>maybe i could abuse classes and __name__ attribute
05:50<andythenorth>that was at me not you
05:51<andythenorth>design for my next bit of code includes magic, lucky-dip tuples
05:51<V453000>Pikka: your drawing style is truly marvelous. :) Incredibly well done details
05:51<andythenorth>('tanker', 'silver'), ('flat', 'coils', 'grey-metal')
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05:51<andythenorth>the meaning of tuple parts > 0 varies according to meaning of part 0
05:52*andythenorth hates unnamed properties full stop
05:52<andythenorth>especially lucky-dip magical ones
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05:53<andythenorth>I could create classes
05:53<andythenorth>or dicts
05:56<@Alberth>named tuples?
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05:56<@Alberth>you can also call them 'variant records', like in pascal :p
05:57<V453000>just call it beer
06:02<andythenorth>named tuples?
06:02<andythenorth>how quaint
06:02<andythenorth>I was going to use a class for roughly the same effect
06:03<andythenorth>it is a class?
06:04<@Alberth>a dict is closer to a class, I think
06:04<@Alberth>in classes, you'd make a class hierarchy
06:05<andythenorth>I might be misunderstanding the code example in the docs
06:05<andythenorth>seems like an awful lot of scaffolding I'd have to write to construct the Point example
06:06<@Alberth>if you just want a point as plain data, then yes, use a (x,y) instead.
06:07<@Alberth>but if you have several forms of points, you have extra data, or want to attach functions(=methods) to them, classes become more attractive
06:08<andythenorth>I'll read the namedtuple doc again, I must be misunderstanding it :P
06:08<@Alberth>stuff like dicts like you use them, and named tuples just make a small step to a more broader base, imho
06:09*andythenorth remembers something
06:09<andythenorth>I'm using strange spacing / indenting somewhere
06:09<andythenorth>you mentioned it would be better fixed
06:09<@Alberth>does something remember you too? :)
06:10<andythenorth>not so much :P
06:12<@Alberth>you format large literals (lists, dicts, tuples) like it is code in the middle of other code. To me, it is confusing to read.
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06:12<andythenorth>got an example?
06:12<andythenorth>I can fix...
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06:18<andythenorth>well it's not PEP-8 :P
06:19<andythenorth>it's just the vertical-alignment I should change?
06:19<andythenorth>or other
06:19<@Alberth>I am wondering about it
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06:20<@Alberth>the thing that messes it up for me is the \n} at the end, and to a lesser extent, the {\n at the beginning
06:21<andythenorth>I've formatted it as though it's html :P
06:21<@Alberth>but you do exactly the same above, eg lines 43-49, and there I don't find it a problem
06:22<@Alberth>except I would probably merge it all to one line
06:22<andythenorth>L43-49 are easier to scan
06:22<andythenorth>once there is > one level of indent, the left edge gets ragged
06:23<andythenorth>which is harder to read
06:24<andythenorth>and the spacing inside is wrong, e.g. setting it to valign on 'colour_shift'
06:24<andythenorth>easier to read the values, harder to read the code
06:24<@Alberth>I'd move line 57 to after line 56, align the others under it, and move line 68 to after line 67
06:25<@Alberth>yeah, the top colour_shifts could move too
06:25<@Alberth>and I'd write it as a dict literal, instead of a 'dict()'
06:25<andythenorth>that code is dead now anyway, so I can't improve it :P
06:25*andythenorth looks for similar case
06:26<@Alberth>move it to 'examples' in pixa :p
06:26<andythenorth>here's one
06:26<@Alberth>but euhm, didn't someone say 8bpp is dead?
06:27<andythenorth>seems to be
06:27<andythenorth>all the big new sets are switching to 32bpp :|
06:28<@Alberth>people want to experiment
06:29<@Alberth>but making good 32bpp pictures is far from trivial, I think
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06:30<@Alberth>I can see using renderers, but can you do it 'manually' too?
06:30<Pikka>take 8bpp sprites, convert to 32bpp in image editor, click save. done.
06:31<@Alberth>sure, but I was talking about using more than 256 colours :p
06:31<@Alberth>your drawing techniques would change, I guess
06:32<V453000>I dont think you can make use of more colours on the standard zoom amount of pixels
06:32<V453000>at least not on vehicles which I have experience with drawing
06:33<V453000>houses and landscape, perhaps
06:33<Pikka>for things like the quarries in PBI, I drew them in 32bpp so I could shade and shape them easier, then converted to the TTD palette.
06:33<andythenorth>V453000: using 32bpp means you can get an exact match to specific train colours
06:33<andythenorth>which is very important
06:33<andythenorth>you can even match specifically to the colour of specific locomotive
06:33<V453000>like from real life photos?
06:34<V453000>totally dont care :)
06:34<@Alberth>so it is not 'more' colours', bit 'different' ones
06:34<V453000>I do it from my head not from images
06:34<andythenorth>as the colour would appear under 11am slightly overcast conditions, with 42% humidity
06:34<andythenorth>as measured by a colour spectrometer, adjusted for UV distortion
06:34<V453000>right :D
06:34<andythenorth>and allowing for variations in the paint layer which reflects light different according to thickness of primer
06:35<andythenorth>this kind of crap is highly important
06:35<andythenorth>in a toy
06:35<andythenorth>it doesn't reflect an abject failure of imagination at all
06:35<andythenorth>it frees up artists
06:36<@Alberth>andythenorth: perhaps you should stop drawing, but instead build a real industry, and take photographs under the right conditions, and convert them to images
06:36<andythenorth>artists will be free to imaginatively and creative recreate exactly what they see in a photo
06:36<andythenorth>true art :P
06:36*andythenorth is grumpy
06:36<V453000>that is how most of the openttd sets are being done
06:37<V453000>not nuts. :P
06:38<andythenorth>I don't want to rain on the parade - lots of work has gone into 32bpp spec
06:39*andythenorth will be quiet
06:39<V453000>I believe it is great for extra zoom sprites with higher resolutions, and I still think for buildings and larger images it can do amazing stuff
06:39<andythenorth>also the toddler is hitting my screen and shouting 'make choo choo' again
06:39<V453000>making building set in more colours? hell that could be something
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06:45<xiong>How is it even possible for a train to break down *in* depot!?
06:47<@Alberth>your car never rufuses to start when you park in your garage?
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06:50<@Alberth>andythenorth: ?
06:50<rane>what's the deal with one way roads, never soon those before
06:51<@Alberth>trucks drive only in one way, mostly
06:51<@Alberth>andythenorth: I am somewhat tempted to for i in range(1,4): seqs[141-i] = ... for the last 3 entries, but it does not look good
06:51<andythenorth>Alberth: so it's the 'return' that boggles the brain
06:51<Zuu>Eg. it creates a dual lane road with the rule that vehicles should keep to right (or left)
06:52<andythenorth>Alberth: I already considered using ranges
06:52<andythenorth>less explicit
06:52*Alberth nods
06:52<andythenorth>I used to do that kind of thing
06:52<andythenorth>now I don't like to parse what the result will be in my brain, when I could just read it :P
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06:53<andythenorth>I'll hunt down multi-line return statements, they kind of suck
06:53<@Alberth>andythenorth: I think the thing that messes them up is that you use the same amount of indenting for them
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06:54<@Alberth>which makes them look like code on the first glance
06:54<andythenorth>yup, but I can't think how to avoid that cleanly
06:54<andythenorth>single line return is faster to scan anyway
06:54<andythenorth>especially in cases of multiple returns from a method
06:54<andythenorth>(for the brain)
06:55<@Alberth>in OpenTTD, we do a double indent on next lines, but that's still code
06:56<andythenorth>I'll fix them as per your paste
06:56<badoing>hi, i installed openttd version 1.1.5 and now i don't get information when right clicking. can anyone help?
06:56<andythenorth>so I misunderstood namedtuples :P
06:56<@Alberth>and the main reason is the 'if'
06:57<@Alberth>badoing: by default you hover on them
06:57<@Alberth>but you can change back to right click in the advanced settings
06:58<@Alberth>hmm, did that get changed in 1.1.5? how time flies!
06:59<@Alberth>hi dihedral
06:59<Rubidium>Alberth: it didn't in 1.1.5, it did way before
06:59<dihedral>Hello sir, how are you?
06:59<@Alberth>so time moves even faster :)
06:59<badoing>Alberth: hover on them works. but i changed it now. thank you
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06:59<Eddi|zuHause>we once discussed whether the default hover timeout is too long
06:59<Eddi|zuHause>not sure what resulted from that
07:00<@Alberth>for newbies it is, for others it is not, I would guess :)
07:00<@Alberth>hi Wolf01
07:00<@planetmaker>It's probably too subjective. But I guess the hover timeout should be geared towards newbies
07:00<@planetmaker>hi all :-)
07:01<@Alberth>I switched it back to r-click, I don't like those popups at all
07:01<@Alberth>hi pm :)
07:01<@planetmaker>I think it's a good thing to have. But.. .yes. I don't need it. But I mostly know the UI :-)
07:02<@planetmaker>the tooltip is not made for channel regulars :-)
07:02<badoing>i like the right click, too. i just get informatin if i need it and i get it fast without waiting a few seconds
07:02<Rubidium>only caveat is that newbies don't know the right click tooltips
07:03<@planetmaker>default has to be the accessible thing. People just want to try the game and understand everything intuitively
07:03<@planetmaker>And that's fair enough
07:07-!-Anders is now known as abp
07:09<dihedral>then they did not read the readme :-P
07:12<@Alberth>perhaps we should add a 'I have read the readme and fully understand it' screen in the installer
07:12<@Alberth>and to be sure, we also add 3 random questions after it that you must answer correctly :p
07:14<@planetmaker>please enter word #3 in line 72 on page 13
07:14<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r24033 /trunk/src/saveload/ai_sl.cpp: -Fix: reset "is random" status of temporary variable during saveload as it's not always written to when loading an AI which means it'd be taking the is random setting of another AI.
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07:20<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r24034 /branches/1.2/ (67 files in 7 dirs):
07:20<CIA-1>OpenTTD: [1.2] -Backport from trunk:
07:20<CIA-1>OpenTTD: - Feature: Increase the station class limit from 32 to 256 (r24031)
07:20<CIA-1>OpenTTD: - Fix: [NoAI] reset 'is random' status of temporary variable during saveload as it is not always written to when loading an AI which means it wouldd be taking the 'is random' setting of another AI (r24033)
07:20<CIA-1>OpenTTD: - Fix: [NoAI] Make AIEngine::IsArticulated return true if the articulated callback flag is set, do not try to run the callback (r24029)
07:20<CIA-1>OpenTTD: - Fix: Pass cases down into the list of cargos [FS#5090] (r24024, r24023, r24022)
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07:24<@Alberth>planetmaker: that's the wrong level of understanding :p we should ask questions about setting hover timeouts, and building aircrafts, and the wiki url :)
07:34<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r24035 /trunk/src/lang/ (35 files in 2 dirs): -Add: "missing" strings to translations that were merely control codes
07:40<Zuu>Also as the tooltips require you to keep the mouse within a very small rectangle for the tooltip to show, the time limit has to be quite low.
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07:43<Ammler>openttd now part of openSUSE standard repo :-)
07:43<@planetmaker>Alberth: true :-)
07:49<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r24036 /branches/1.2/bin/baseset/opntitle.dat: [1.2] -Change: the title game from the title game competition (sc79). Some changes have been made outside of the view to reduce the file size significantly (chop trees, flatten ground)
07:50<Eddi|zuHause>mäh, i hate it when games don't run in wine, when others say it does
07:51<Eddi|zuHause>somewhen i should try actually installing a windows :)
07:52<Eddi|zuHause>haha :p
07:52<Zuu>Its not that hard, you just have to control your feelings if you like the linux-way better :-)
07:52<Eddi|zuHause>Zuu: i tried copying over my old windows installation from the other computer, but that somewhat failed
07:53<Eddi|zuHause>as in, it didn't even boot
07:53*Zuu is not surprised
07:55<Eddi|zuHause>now... finding a windows cd...
07:55<Eddi|zuHause>actually, i should first check whether i have alternate ways to boot my linux :)
07:55<Eddi|zuHause>aka repair the boot manager :)
07:56<Zuu>yep thats a good thing to have :-)
07:57<Zuu>Unless you need game performance, a virtual machine might be easier and more handy to use.
07:58<Eddi|zuHause>i have a virtual windows, but that's unable to use 3D acceleration
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08:00<frosch123>since when does the ttdp problem forum say "no posts" on the main index? :p
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08:04<@planetmaker>probably since there are no problems with it anymore
08:05<rane>hmm, i'm feeding train station with trucks from 3 farms, and the transported rate won't get higher than 67% on any of the farms
08:06<Eddi|zuHause>yes, that sounds roughly correct
08:06<@planetmaker>constantly loading?
08:06<rane>yea always something loading
08:06<@planetmaker>both cargos?
08:06<Zuu>Get a statue in the towns of the feeding stations
08:06<Zuu>Will increase your rating by 10%
08:07<Zuu>=> more cargo is delivered to the stations.
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08:12<rane>now it's improving actually
08:12<@Alberth> <-- rane
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10:47<drac_boy>know this probably is a long question for some but are there ever any kind of mutiplayer maps where people actually cooperate or is that getting too hard to ask for?
10:52<drac_boy>sometimes I'm just not understanding why people don't bother playing on their own single maps if they just can't seem to do one bit of sharing
10:53<@Yexo>try #openttdcoop
10:53<@Yexo>all players in a single company, now that's cooperation :)
10:55<drac_boy>ah, well if you say so I guess I'll have to get RC2 and try their welcome server then. thanks yexo
10:55<drac_boy>btw how much of a player are you? (whether thats in ottd or patch)
10:55<@Yexo>they have an irc channel here too, I think it's #openttdcoop.welcome for the welcome server
10:55<@Yexo>I don't play much at all
10:56<drac_boy>ok just had to ask :)
10:59<drac_boy>ok..compiling a minute I should be able to check out that map
11:00<drac_boy>yexo I play once in a while with quite a few different grfs in patch. as for ottd itself..well...its on a loaned laptop
11:02<TWerkhoven2[l]>for the welcome server
11:02<TWerkhoven2[l]>or plain #openttdcoop for public server
11:02<drac_boy>heh already joined the second one but checking the first one now :)
11:03<Chris_Booth>or none of the above
11:03<drac_boy>you're a strange one Chris_Booth
11:03<Chris_Booth>yes I am!
11:03<Chris_Booth>how did you know?
11:04<drac_boy>dunno? :-P
11:04<Chris_Booth>well you can give yourself a shiny for getting it right!
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11:05*drac_boy gives Chris_Booth a blueberry the fac
11:06<Chris_Booth>I don't have a fac
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11:07<drac_boy>that was a joke for fac=face
11:07<drac_boy>but never mind that heh
11:11<andythenorth>'-' is not valid in nml identifiers?
11:12<andythenorth>slight headache :)
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11:17<drac_boy>not a pixel headache I hope?
11:18<frosch123>he keeps on licking them
11:19<drac_boy>heh heh heh
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11:42<rane>hmm, openttdcoop welcome wants New Company Colours (Black) newgrf and it can't be downloaded
11:42<oskari89>Is there more sound effect callbacks than these?
11:42<Zuu>Then it is probably in the #openttdcoop newgrf pack
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11:42<oskari89>Such as random interval or so?
11:43<oskari89>For use on stations?
11:44<@Yexo>the next animation frame callback can optionally result a sound effect number
11:44<@planetmaker>rane: it is part of the openttdcoop grf pack
11:44<@Yexo>as can the animation control and construction stage callacks
11:45<oskari89>Yexo: Ok..
11:45<@planetmaker>^^ it's part of that (ancient) newgrf collection
11:45<oskari89> There's no wiki for that..
11:45<@planetmaker>the welcome server *should* not use them, but sometimes does
11:45<@Yexo> <- it's all there
11:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: frosch * r24037 /trunk/src/ (base_media_base.h settings_gui.cpp widgets/settings_widget.h): -Feature: Allow display of baseset textfiles. (LordAro)
11:45<oskari89>Yexo: Ok
11:46<drac_boy>rane I've had the same problem... neither two grfs from wiki or forum even works for some reason
11:47<rane>works for me now
11:47<@planetmaker>drac_boy: the grfpack I linked need be unzipped into the the newgrf folder of OpenTTD (found where described in readme section 4)
11:48<@planetmaker>great, rane :-)
11:48<rane>just took me a while to figure out where to put the stuff
11:48<oskari89>Yexo: Can station animation frames can be same and looping, and so it can be used for looping non-stopping sound?
11:49<@planetmaker>that's what we have the readme for. If it can be made better, please come forward with the suggestions / improvements
11:49<@Yexo>oskari89: yes
11:49<drac_boy> telling me the grf table isn't what its supposed to be?
11:49<oskari89>Yexo: Thanks :)
11:49<oskari89>That was just the information that i was looking for.
11:49<@planetmaker>drac_boy: I'm telling you that you only need to download the grfpack v8 as linked on that page, unzip it in the right place and then you're set
11:50<@planetmaker>the grf table is only for overview
11:50<drac_boy>planetmaker...and what if I already have a lot of other grfs so I don't want endless duplications?
11:50<@planetmaker>though it might work, if you download all separately, it's tedious ;-)
11:51<@planetmaker>drac_boy: you have the exact same versions?
11:51<drac_boy>the only one other grf I had to get through the online content was the hover bus
11:51<@planetmaker>you refuse to download the pack which is guaranteed to have missing grfs for our server and then say "doesn't work"?
11:51<@planetmaker>the grf pack has those which are _not_ in online content
11:51<drac_boy>planetmaker if you mean version as in the one posted on the only one single download place for it in forum then yes
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11:52<@planetmaker>and the grfpack might have other versions than found in the forum
11:52<@planetmaker>as every single bit of a grf file matters for connecting. Not just the name
11:53<@planetmaker>and "doesn't work" is simply explained with "has not the required newgrfs", if you miss some
11:57<oskari89>Yexo: Can NML have that sound on Object animation callback?
11:57<oskari89>At the same way?
11:58<oskari89> Is it there?
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11:59<@Yexo>no, but it works the same way as described for the nml callbacks
11:59<@Yexo>"Returning a sound effect in the high byte will cause that sound effect to be played. " <- actually it is there
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12:01<oskari89>Ok, thanks.
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12:10<rane>hmm, trains aren't slowing down on hills on the openttd welcome server
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12:12<@Yexo>rane: realistic acceleration is probably enabled
12:15<rane>seems so, checked advanced settings
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12:33<andythenorth>~1hr to find a missing / char
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12:42<CIA-1>OpenTTD: frosch * r24038 /trunk/src/gfx.cpp: -Fix (r23472): After opening a textwindow with the monospaced font, all other text started glitching.
12:44<frosch123>yay, for bad font kerning
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12:46<Rhamphoryncus>Train has 108 farmsup crates. Transfers them to a station. Truck picks up 4 crates. Train reloads the rest. Train now has 102 crates. wth?
12:49<andythenorth>transfer and leave empty
12:49<@Alberth>your employees steal crates!
12:51<andythenorth>@calc 108 - 4
12:51<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: 104
12:55<frosch123>btw... random question: when do you think will public schools stop teaching cursive? (i.e. only block letters)
12:57<@Alberth>I never learned those, I think
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13:02<frosch123>hmm, actually it is already going on
13:02<frosch123>i am just not aware :)
13:03<supermop>airplane internet is expensive
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13:20<Eddi|zuHause>hm... so that was somewhat of a half-success
13:21<Eddi|zuHause>i got windows installed, and it boots, but it has no driver for the "ethernet-device", and i can't go online to find one :p
13:22<@Alberth>I have such a system too, except it also has no floppy and no cd-rom either :p
13:23<@Alberth>use a phone modem? :D
13:23<Eddi|zuHause>nah, i can download it here and write it onto the drive
13:24<Eddi|zuHause>or i can search for the driver cd that might have come with the board... but i don't remember...
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13:25<Eddi|zuHause>"Gigabyte AMD 8-series Utility DVD"
13:25<Eddi|zuHause>that sounds right...
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13:25<frosch123>you have a native windows installation?
13:25<frosch123>what is that good for?
13:25<Eddi|zuHause>dunno :)
13:26<ffpp>i have one too, is this embarrassing in some way ? :)
13:26<@Alberth>no, just useless :)
13:27<frosch123>well, it is fine if you have to some old pc which you have not used in years. but i sounded as if eddi installed a new one
13:27<frosch123>s/to/one on/
13:27<Eddi|zuHause>yes... some games refuse to run in wine
13:27<ffpp>so you are running windows in vm or not at all ?
13:28<frosch123>in vm, when i actually need it
13:28<Eddi|zuHause>and i couldn't find a vm that supports hardware-3D
13:28<@Alberth>not at all :)
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13:28<@Alberth>oh oh , reboot time :)
13:29<ffpp>hm, I have XP in a vm but I don't know what for, but since I got it for free Win7 is roaming some partition as well ;)
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13:56<Rhamphoryncus>andythenorth: I'm guessing I was over the "too much waiting cargo" threshold and I got unlucky
13:58*andythenorth felt clever for using a set, but is now back to a dict :P
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14:02<Eddi|zuHause>the list of half-successes go on...
14:02<Eddi|zuHause>the driver-dvd could install loads of crap, the ethernet driver, the audio driver, but not the video-driver (->blue screen)
14:03<Eddi|zuHause>and whatever is an "SM-Bus-Controller"
14:03<@Alberth>luckily the impact of half-sucessses decreases exponentially :)
14:03<ffpp>slave master bus controller ?
14:08<andythenorth> will all work
14:08<andythenorth>is there a max length for an nml identifier?
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14:09<@Alberth>as long as you only consider integer finite positive values for length :)
14:10<andythenorth>here's a nice one
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14:12<Rhamphoryncus>Hmm. Conditional orders need registers :D
14:17<Rhamphoryncus>When doing a SRNW you could save your current area, jump to some common code, then jump back to your saved area
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14:24<andythenorth>ho ho
14:24<andythenorth>it sort of worked
14:24<Rhamphoryncus>Currently I have a farmsup orderlist that goes between my farms as well as the coalmine+limekiln to create farm supplies. My only state is the current order so the coalmine+limekiln part gets duplicated, once for each farm
14:25<Rhamphoryncus>But if I wanted to add a second coal mine.. I'd need to duplicate *everything* again to maintain full state. 3 farms and 3 coalmines would mean 9 farm orders and 9 coalmine orders.
14:26<Eddi|zuHause>consider splitting then, instead of one huge round-trip :)
14:27<Eddi|zuHause>windows still lists two devices that don't have a driver
14:27<Rhamphoryncus>Which would put me to 72 orders used. 6 of each pushes it to 289, not possible
14:28<Rhamphoryncus>Eddi: I likely will
14:28<Eddi|zuHause>oh right, one's my TV cart
14:28<Rhamphoryncus>At least the farm pickup orderlist only ever needs one drop point
14:29<Rhamphoryncus>But still, it's a lot of duplication
14:32*andythenorth is starting to find lucky dip tuples acceptable :P
14:35<andythenorth>oh how quaint, my code works
14:35<andythenorth>but you know this is evil
14:35<andythenorth>the method returns a two-tuple
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14:36<Rhamphoryncus>use sequence unpacking
14:37<andythenorth>for a, b in foo ?
14:37<Rhamphoryncus>self.graphics_ids, self.cargo_graphics_mapping = graphics_stuff = get_graphics_stuff(self)
14:37<Rhamphoryncus>self.graphics_ids, self.cargo_graphics_mapping = get_graphics_stuff(self)
14:37<andythenorth>one line game :P
14:38<andythenorth>you win
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14:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: translators * r24039 /trunk/src/lang/ (korean.txt lithuanian.txt swedish.txt unfinished/basque.txt):
14:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
14:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: basque - 6 changes by Thadah
14:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: korean - 52 changes by telk5093
14:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: lithuanian - 28 changes by Stabilitronas
14:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: swedish - 4 changes by Zuu
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15:30<Eddi|zuHause>hmzz... so i found this neat little tool "fsproxy", which is like a tiny virtual linux to access filesystems
15:30<Eddi|zuHause>but apparently nobody implemented support for encrypted filesystems...
15:31<Eddi|zuHause>maybe i should have tried ssh-ing into it :)
15:32<andythenorth>prize for most convoluted system
15:32<andythenorth>ideally you would involve DropBox
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15:37<andythenorth>generate code can look horrible, right?
15:41<@Alberth>manually entered code can look horrible too :p
15:41<andythenorth>pretty disgusting
15:41<@Alberth>but yeah, formatting of generated code does not have the highest priority, usually :)
15:42<andythenorth>I'm surprised how little difference it's making to my ability to debug it
15:42<andythenorth>formatted / unformatted, it's about the same :o
15:42<@Alberth>why all the empty lines?
15:43<andythenorth>it's just what the templator spits out
15:43<andythenorth>it preserves linebreaks in the template
15:43<andythenorth>and I need the linebreaks to read the template :P
15:44<@Alberth>debugging generated code is easier in the sense that you just look for the problem, and then fix the generator, and re-generate. You never edit the generated code
15:44<andythenorth>it's usually blindingly obvious what the problem is too
15:44<@Alberth>oh, yet another broken template system :p
15:46<andythenorth>not broken for html
15:46<andythenorth>but I'm abusing it :P
15:46<andythenorth>it can be subclassed (probably) to avoid the issue...but meh
15:46<andythenorth>it's generated code
15:48<andythenorth>if 80 chars didn't matter either, I could avoid the breaks :P
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15:48<CIA-1>OpenTTD: frosch * r24040 /trunk/src/ (industry_cmd.cpp lang/english.txt): -Fix [FS#5095]: Improve error messages wrt. the placement restrictions of banks, water towers and toy shops.
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15:50<Rhamphoryncus>andythenorth: what does the template look like?
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15:50<andythenorth>hideous :D
15:50<Rhamphoryncus>Heh. I mean that specific part that produces extra linefeeds
15:52<andythenorth>I'm mungling nml and a template (which I like) designed for xml / xhtml
15:52<andythenorth>so I gave up worrying about elegant formatting
15:52<andythenorth>L11-20 are the offending articles
15:53<Rhamphoryncus>is that in a python string?
15:53<andythenorth>the template is a text file
15:53<andythenorth>this is a duck-tape situation
15:54<andythenorth>I can read it standing on my head
15:54<andythenorth>without code highlighting :P
15:54<Rhamphoryncus>Removing the newlines would be worse than leaving them in. If it was a python string I would have suggested a backslash at the end of the line to disable them
15:54<andythenorth>[to leaving them in]
15:54<andythenorth>I'm just going to apply 'life is short'
15:54<andythenorth>also, it works
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16:01<Rhamphoryncus>I wouldn't be surprised if the template supported something like backslashes to disable linefeeds too
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17:05<andythenorth>add the generated files to repo or not?
17:06<valhallasw>andythenorth: depends on how easy they are to generate
17:07<andythenorth>easy - if you know what to do
17:07<valhallasw>will you be doing people a favour by not requiring them to have full technical knowledge, or will you be annoying them by handing out stale copies from the cache? ;-)
17:07<andythenorth>'tis why I'm not certain whether to do it
17:07*andythenorth favours empiricism
17:08<Rhamphoryncus>Does make create them?
17:11<andythenorth>although perhaps it should
17:11<andythenorth>I can't understand make
17:11<andythenorth>so I have a python build script, but apparently that's lame
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17:12<@Alberth>rename to '' :)
17:12<@Alberth>(unfortunately, andy is capable of doing just that :p )
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17:14<@Alberth> <-- one makefile for you andythenorth
17:15<@Alberth>untested :)
17:15<andythenorth>I changed the script name
17:16<andythenorth>should I ditch the python multiprocessing?
17:16<andythenorth>and let make spawn processes?
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17:17<@Alberth>python knows what to generate, otherwise you have to move that information into the makefile somehow
17:19<andythenorth>I'm making a list of deps from the nfo anyway
17:19<andythenorth>using my insanely stupid deps script :P
17:19<andythenorth>which I need to make less stupid
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17:30<@Alberth>good night all
17:30<andythenorth>bye Alberth
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17:47<andythenorth>ho ho
17:48<andythenorth>all the work pays off
17:57<andythenorth>also...autogenerated cargo table FTW
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18:10*andythenorth gets caught out by loading_speed...again :P
18:13<frosch123>[22:48] <andythenorth> all the work pays off <- working on 32bpp ? :p
18:13<andythenorth>not exactly :P
18:13<andythenorth> auto-magical cargo graphics
18:14<frosch123>yeah, magic cargo is easy to draw. it is invisible
18:14<frosch123>and pink
18:15<andythenorth>how do I make this thing faster?
18:15<andythenorth>12s compiles are boring
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18:16<andythenorth>~10s of that are nmlc
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18:18<drac_boy>was just thinking a bit about this and I know I might sound crazy but why couldn't multiplayer autoclean set to be on with a countdown of I dunno 60 years by default?
18:18<Zuu>andythenorth: Get a faster PC? :-)
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18:19<Zuu>Or is it possible to make the nml in independent parts that could be compiled in parallell and then only linked togeather in the end?
18:19<drac_boy>zuu heh he trying to compile something?
18:19<frosch123>Zuu: maybe he should start with getting a pc at all :p
18:19<drac_boy>ah thought so
18:19<drac_boy>frosch whats a "pc" btw? :)
18:19<Zuu>frosch123: Oh.. yea i should have written "computer".
18:20<frosch123>drac_boy: nowadays it would likely be a trade mark and everyone would sue everyone for using it
18:20*andythenorth considers
18:20<frosch123>there would be a patent on entering text by pressing buttons
18:20<andythenorth>can nmlc process fragments?
18:20<Zuu>drac_boy: I don't compile any nml, I don't even know nml coding. But I do compile C++ code. Eg. OpenTTD or Junctioneer.
18:20<andythenorth>or does it need a full valid nml input?
18:20<frosch123>and reading text displayed on a screen
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18:20<drac_boy>frosch its not a trademark btw
18:20<frosch123>oh, and i forgot the patent on a machine doing something
18:21<andythenorth>ach, nvm
18:21<drac_boy>its too generic... Personal Computer which applies to almost anything
18:21<frosch123>he, it's from a time when computers were not personal :p
18:22*andythenorth ponders telling nmlc to just 'go faster' :P
18:22<Zuu>andythenorth: Does it have a speed flag?
18:22<andythenorth>not afaik
18:23<Zuu>Eg nmlc -s 9
18:23*andythenorth wonders if the realsprites part has any parallelism
18:25<Zuu>wxWidgets has managed to split their (large) library in 20 or so parts that are compiled independent of each other. Giving a very quick compile on a i7 quad core compared to what it used to be on a single core.
18:26<drac_boy>so what else's going on in here? :)
18:27*andythenorth looks at L252-L272 etc of nml/
18:27<frosch123>we're still on the internet
18:27<andythenorth>and wonders
18:28<andythenorth>'import multiprocessing'
18:28<drac_boy>beside that frosch :p
18:28<andythenorth>no idea if if would be faster though :P
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18:51*FLHerne realises why 16k x 8k maps aren't in trunk
18:51<MNIM>I take it it just crashed?
18:52<FLHerne>At this rate, map generation is going to take some time, though
18:52<frosch123>he accidently pressed ctrl+g
18:53<MNIM>oh yeah. did that once.
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18:53<MNIM>whole map screenshot?
18:53<frosch123>no idea why that actually has a hotkey by default :p
18:53<FLHerne>What would happen if I did that?
18:53<MNIM>never knew that programs other than photo editors could generate image files of over 1GB before that.
18:54<frosch123>FLHerne: ottd would block for 5 minutes or so
18:54<MNIM>if not more.
18:54<@Yexo>FLHerne: it creates a "giant screenshot", a screenshot of the entire map in (I think) the default zoom level
18:54<frosch123>and write a png to your disk with some hundred mb in size
18:54<MNIM>depending on hardware and size of the map
18:54<MNIM>if not several GB :P
18:54<frosch123>and if you try to open it, the average program will shut down your os with swapping
18:54<+glx>it eats the RAM before :)
18:55<MNIM>hmmmh. mine could actually open it.
18:55<drac_boy>frosch123 it would depend, some image viewers cache the image from drive, not from ram :p
18:55<FLHerne>Luckily I've got plenty of RAM on this computer
18:55<MNIM>though that was only a bit above a GB, and I have 4 available
18:55<frosch123>FLHerne: i doubt that
18:57<FLHerne>Well, I've got 128 times as much as on my laptop, and that plays OTTD
18:57<frosch123>@calc (16384 + 8092)**2 * 64 * 32 * 4 / 1024 / 1024 / 1024
18:57<@DorpsGek>frosch123: 4570.57629395
18:57<frosch123>FLHerne: you have 4.5 TB of memory?
18:57<FLHerne>for a given value of plays
18:57<FLHerne>Perhaps I put the wrong number in my calculator
18:57<frosch123>see, you are not able to store the screenshot of a 16k x 8k map uncompressed in memory
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18:58<FLHerne>Err...4.5 TB!?
18:58<FLHerne>I don't even have that much storage space in my house!
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18:59<frosch123>hmm, i think i miscalculated, it is slightly less
18:59<@Yexo>why the **2 ?
18:59<FLHerne>At least I got the numbers right, it would be fun to try this on my PowerBook
18:59<frosch123>number of tiles from west to east and north to south
19:00<FLHerne>TTD is using more RAM just now than the PBook has hard drive space :P
19:00<frosch123>@calc (16384/2 + 8092)**2 * 64 * 32 * 4 / 1024 / 1024 / 1024
19:00<@DorpsGek>frosch123: 2023.07629395
19:00<frosch123>only 2 TB
19:01<frosch123>unless ctrl+g uses extra zoom today :p
19:01<@Yexo>@calc ((16384 + 8092)/2)**2 * 64 * 32 * 4 / 1024 / 1024 / 1024
19:01<@DorpsGek>Yexo: 1142.64407349
19:01<frosch123>then it's 32 GB
19:01<@Yexo>isn't it that?
19:02<FLHerne>Oh well, map generating reaches 28%
19:02<FLHerne>That's 6% in 10 minutes
19:02<frosch123>Yexo: yeah, maybe
19:02<FLHerne>How accurate is the indicator thing?
19:02<frosch123>depend whether you use newgrfs
19:03<frosch123>if you use ecs vectors, then maybe go to sleep now
19:03<frosch123>and wake up in the morning with the map
19:03<FLHerne>Also sleep?
19:03<FLHerne>Town generation: 4005/
19:04*FLHerne wanders off for a bit
19:04<frosch123>FLHerne: anyway, map generation is fast by definition
19:04<frosch123>you cannot even imagine how long it would take to even only connect 1% of the stuff on that map
19:05<frosch123>2k x 2k is already way too big for a single player
19:05<FLHerne>No. I can't
19:05<frosch123>granted :)
19:06<+glx>is there a townname generator able to generate 26624 names ?
19:06<FLHerne>I wonder what would happen if I removed the max distance for ships, then created a completely water-filled , 16k x 8k map and put a few hundred ships in it?
19:06<@Yexo>it'd lag enormously
19:07<FLHerne>Understatement perhaps? :P
19:07<frosch123>well, at some point the yapf cache kicks in, and more ships actually do not make it slower
19:08<FLHerne>Oh, didn't know that
19:08<frosch123>i once tried to make a performance test case for the ship pf by just building a heap of ships on one side of the map and sending them to the other side
19:08<frosch123>but, it turned out to be a bad testcase
19:09<FLHerne>Does that only apply to ships following a similar or identical course, or does it do something clever?
19:09<frosch123>yapf generally caches trackcost
19:09<frosch123>which is profitable if multiple vehicles use the same "tracks"
19:09<frosch123>this is obviously good for trains and also (but less) for road vehicles
19:10<frosch123>but usually there is a lot more water than ships, so it does not work so well for ships
19:10<frosch123>but it works if all ships are in the same place
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19:35<Wolf01>'night all
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19:39<Rhamphoryncus>Hum. Autorefit is somewhat incompatible with gradual loading if you're putting different cargotypes on the same train at the same time.
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19:42<FLHerne>Oh? I haven't tried that yet - what happens?
19:44<Rhamphoryncus>Gradual loading spaces cargo out. When there's enough for a full load it'll just keep going until it's full. If you're autorefitting to multiple cargo types however that locks in the cargo type
19:44<Rhamphoryncus>So you may have a tiny amount of wool in each car, then be unable to load any plant fibres
19:45<FLHerne>So if you're loading more than one type of cargo and both fit in the same type of vehicle, only one gets loaded?
19:46<Rhamphoryncus>That's fine. I don't expect them to mix. The problem is when you have 10 cars and they each only have 2 wool
19:46<FLHerne>I imagine Cargodist (and consequent partial loading/unloading) might cause problems too?
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19:47<Rhamphoryncus>Ideally you'd have 2 cars full with one partially full, the rest empty
19:47<Rhamphoryncus>Not sure.
19:48<FLHerne>Town generation: 8442/26624...
19:48<Rhamphoryncus>giant map?
19:48<FLHerne>Yes. So I should turn off gradual loading when it finishes generating?
19:49<Rhamphoryncus>Only if you intend to use autorefit in that fashion
19:49<@Yexo><FLHerne> I imagine Cargodist (and consequent partial loading/unloading) might cause problems too? <- there shouldn't be any problems there
19:49<FLHerne>I do intend to use autorefit in that fashion :P
19:49<Rhamphoryncus>Then yes, turn it off :)
19:50<FLHerne>It might finally make my all-stations branch mixed freights work :D
19:51<Rhamphoryncus>I'm also using FIRS with the rations locked at 100%
19:51<Rhamphoryncus>If it takes you that long to generate the map are you sure your computer can handle playing on it?
19:51<FLHerne>No. I suppose I'll have to see :P
19:52<FLHerne>It plays 8k by 4k, but I haven't tried anything this big before
19:52<Rhamphoryncus>Never, ever zoom out ;)
19:53<FLHerne>9000 towns now
19:53<Rhamphoryncus>Also try turning off loading indicators and reserved tracks
19:53<FLHerne>I think I found most of the performance things
19:54<FLHerne>December's mad project was to play OTTD in 32MB of RAM :D
19:54<Rhamphoryncus>There's currently a lot of issues with excessive redrawing
19:55<FLHerne>Of sprites that haven't changed?
19:56<FLHerne>Hmm. Will have to go to bed and let the map generate on its own
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19:58<frosch123>haha, told him that a hour ago :p
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20:26<swissfan91>evening all
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21:04<krinn>hi, just passing by to report a bug in railpathfinder, who made it ?
21:05<krinn>the AI lib, not openttd rail pathfinder
21:08<krinn>hmm ok too late, hope truebrain look at log :P
21:09<krinn>line 87 & 106: <this._cost_diagonal_tile> --> <this._main._cost_diagonal_tile>
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21:40<Lejving>Hello. I just installed Open TTD and I kinda find everything very confusing, is there some guide that teaches me the basics somewhere?
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---Logclosed Sun Mar 18 00:00:59 2012