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#openttd IRC Logs for 2012-03-18

---Logopened Sun Mar 18 00:00:59 2012
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03:40<Rubidium>morning andythenorth
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04:24<Wolf01>o/ morning
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04:58<CornishPasty>Anybody know how to change the climate on a dedicated server?
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06:22<rane>CornishPasty: you mean landscape?
06:23<rane>or you probably don't have the problem anymore
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06:28<CornishPasty>rane: Yeah, from temperate to toy land or whatever...
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06:50<@Alberth>in the openttd.cfg "[game_creation]" section, there is a setting 'landscape = temperate'. You should be able to change that from the console
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07:29<FLHerne>Does anyone know how to use Slim Timetable Separation?
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07:32<FLHerne>Oh well, it just crashed. Probably didn't like being merged with Cargodist
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07:37<rane>for some reason openttd is performing quite poorly on os x for me
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07:41*MNIM slaps rane in the face.
07:41<MNIM>I thought it was quite clear that you OSX is NOT supported by ottd.
07:41<rane>oh? hasn't been clear at all
07:42<rane>but good to know
07:42<__ln__>MNIM: what does that sentence mean?
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07:45*MNIM removes 'you' from that sentence
07:45<MNIM>sorry, early morning to me >.>
07:47<@Alberth>rane: there are a number of bugs in the OSX version that we cannot fix due to lack of an OSX developer
07:47<rane>ok, that's unfortunate
07:48<__ln__>however poor performance is not one of the known bugs.
07:49<__ln__>if "performing quite poorly" means it's slow.
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07:58<frosch123>yay, this flash-blocking ff add-on seems to work :)
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08:19<Arafangion>Alberth: What's the most significant bug?
08:20<@planetmaker>crash. when using cmd+h
08:20<@planetmaker>might be when using fullscreen only
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08:21<@planetmaker>and lack of support for the bootstrap which asks to grab base sets, if not found
08:21<Arafangion>I assume pre-lion fullscreen, but curious. Well, the user can simply avoid that command, surely?
08:21<@planetmaker>no. Lion full screen
08:21<@planetmaker>osx lion is... a problem
08:21<Arafangion>Lion fullscreen is *useless* :(
08:22<@planetmaker>you do not want to forbid users the equivalent of alt+tab to cycle through applications?
08:22<@planetmaker>no, that's a bug, and it's not something you can say 'avoid please'
08:22<Arafangion>planetmaker: I don't do that by using cmd+h, though - I use cmd+tab and cmd+tilde.
08:22<@planetmaker>I use neither. But that doesn't make it less serious
08:23<@planetmaker>the bootstrap with auto-install of base sets might be as much needed, though
08:24<Eddi|zuHause>for "general browsing" i use konqueror with plugins and javascript disabled. only for pages which actually require flash i use firefox as alternative browser.
08:24<Arafangion>Eddi|zuHause: I use chromium.
08:24<Eddi|zuHause>not quite the point :)
08:25<Arafangion>planetmaker: I wish I had a personal (as opposed to business) mac I could help contribute to openttd with. :(
08:25<Arafangion>Eddi|zuHause: Well, it's webkit based, and works quite well with flash :)
08:26<Eddi|zuHause>Arafangion: the point was to _disable_ flash, unless really necessary
08:26<Arafangion>Eddi|zuHause: Fair enough.
08:26<Arafangion>It's a buggy peice of crap.
08:26<__ln__>unfortunately *owning* a mac is not quite enough for making useful contributions.
08:26<Arafangion>__ln__: I'm also a dev.
08:27<Arafangion>__ln__: But time's a premium. :(
08:28<Arafangion>Unfortunately, dev'ing on an actual mac's the only practical way to do mac dev. :(
08:32<@planetmaker>yes. that's the bad thing. Though that's nearly generally true
08:33<@Alberth>preferably more than one, as what works on one may not work at another
08:33<Arafangion>What if you were to forget the mac UI, and provide it as an X11 app?
08:33<Arafangion>I mean, you guys do your own UI anyway?
08:33<@planetmaker>SDL is buggy
08:33<@planetmaker>on osx
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08:34<Arafangion>Bah, sucky either way, then?
08:35<TinoDidriksen>I wish I had more time so I could make the Qt front-end...
08:35<@planetmaker>the osx gui doesn't quite suck. But mostly it misses adoption to the constant API changes
08:35<@Alberth>well, Apple did not approve the software, so don't expect it to run :p
08:35<Arafangion>TinoDidriksen: Intruguing idea! Wouldn't rendering performance then suck, though?
08:36<@Alberth>Qt is just another X11 frontend
08:36*Arafangion uses OpenTTD on an Atom D525... It definetly takes it to its limits.
08:36<TinoDidriksen>Arafangion, Qt QGraphicsView uses OpenGL
08:36<Arafangion>TinoDidriksen: Hmm, nice.
08:37<@Alberth>not really, 3D technology is not designed to just push lots of pictures to the screen
08:37<Arafangion>Alberth: No, but that's how it's used these days!?
08:38<@Alberth>Arafangion: ???
08:38<@Alberth>(don't understand the question)
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08:39<Arafangion>Alberth: I meant, that none-the-less, OpenGL's tended to be used for graphics acceleration of 2D graphics, simply because there are very few other *portable* 2D graphics frameworks.
08:39<Arafangion>Certainly none that are accelerated.
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08:41<@Alberth>with OpenTTD, you can safely remove 'accelerated' :D you need the CPU as well to render the display as I have heard.
08:42<Arafangion>Alberth: Unfortunate. :)
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08:55<Rubidium>Alberth: 8bpp palette animation is GPU accelerated on those GPUs that support it, i.e. low end and old GPUs
08:56<Rubidium>and only on OSes that have a proper fallback when the hardware does not provide the feature
08:58<@Alberth>weren't the NewGRF call chains a problem in OpenGL ?
08:58<Rubidium>no clue what the problems were
08:58<Rubidium>it was merely slower for me
09:00<frosch123>wasn't the problem that we could not quite well create texture atlases from the sprites?
09:09<+michi_cc>Limiting factor seems to be bandwidth to the video card. Texture atlases stored in card memory effectivly avoid that, but how to create an atlas if you have no clue at all about the access pattern?
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09:10<+michi_cc>And storing each and every sprite as a separate texture results in lots of overhead (switching textures is often not very fast).
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09:33<Arafangion>michi_cc: Could you mitigate that with display lists?
09:33<Arafangion>michi_cc: Given that the sprites are very small.
09:33<Arafangion>(ie, you could manually render them)
09:34<+michi_cc>I don't think one display list per sprite would do any good at all.
09:35<Arafangion>How many sprites are we talking about?
09:35<Arafangion>Just hundreds?
09:35<+michi_cc>NewGRFs can display any arbitrary sprite at any time, there is nothing you can group them by. There are things like spritesets, but nothing guarantees that it's the same set every time.
09:36<Arafangion>Ah, that complicates it.
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09:39<Rubidium>think more about thousands of sprites
09:39<+michi_cc>The baseset only is somewhere around 5000 sprites, and with NewGRFs that can be *a lot* more. The unfinished CETS is at *62000* right now.
09:39<+glx>including pseudosprites ?
09:40<+michi_cc>No :)
09:40<+michi_cc>Total is a bit over 100k :)
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09:48<@planetmaker>michi_cc: it's rather 10k sprites for a base set
09:49<@planetmaker>it's along 1000 sprites for the rivers alone
09:49<@planetmaker>though not all 10k sprites are loaded concurrently
09:49<@planetmaker>but it's like 7k or so
09:49<+michi_cc>Drawing doesnt't care about total sprites though, only about sprites per climate.
09:50<@planetmaker>5k in the base grf and 2k in the extra. maybe.
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09:53<V453000>1000 sprites for rivers? o_O
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09:56<andythenorth>37k lines code for BANDIT
09:56<@planetmaker>(4 sides + 4 corners + 4 corners) * 5 slopes * 2 for river mouths * 9 terrains
09:56<@planetmaker>= 1080 real sprites
09:56<andythenorth>and what fun they were to draw too :P
09:58<@planetmaker>canals are only 1/5 of that on top
09:58<@planetmaker>oh. And I missed the water sprites
09:58<@planetmaker>with rocks on slopes. So... again some more. 4 * 16 random
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09:59<@planetmaker>so I guess we have 1.5k real sprites for waterfeatures in the extra grf
10:00<V453000>hm I guess it isnt that much in the end
10:01<V453000>counting the amount that nuts has
10:01<V453000>but considering that it is "just rivers" opposed to tons of trains .. :D
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10:08<V453000>oh :> 5600+
10:09<@Alberth>about 3 rivers :D
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10:28<drac_boy>any of you know if its possible to compile the source in some way to stop looking for other existing folders and mess up the newgrf+multiplayer settings in the process?
10:29<@planetmaker>my settings are never messed up by compilation
10:29<@planetmaker>and I didn't do anything fancy
10:29<@planetmaker>or anything special at all
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10:30<drac_boy>planetmaker well then why is it that as soon as I run 1.2.0-RC2 it messed up the two settings for 1.1.5 even although it was a complete different folder+cfg?
10:31<Eddi|zuHause>well, my settings are "messed up" when switching between trunk an chillpp
10:31<Eddi|zuHause>in this instance the "autosave interval" option, which contains the trunk-invalid values "weekly" and "daily"
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10:32<Eddi|zuHause>and trunk has the bug that it doesn't reset the value to default (monthly), but to 0 (off)
10:33<Eddi|zuHause>drac_boy: most likely you used a config that you didn't think you used
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10:33<Eddi|zuHause>drac_boy: use the "-c <path/file.cfg>" option if in doubt
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10:38<drac_boy>eddi you mean the newer builds somehow are stopping looking in their own local folder first as they used to?
10:39<drac_boy>hm...that could explain this
10:39<Eddi|zuHause>"own folder" was never first. afair the order is "current working directory", "user directory", "binary directory"
10:40<drac_boy>well..the first one...whatever term you want to define it as :)
10:40<Eddi|zuHause>then maybe you didn't set the working directory properyl
10:40*andythenorth has brain ache
10:40<drac_boy>I'm doing the same thing I've always done with prior versions
10:40<andythenorth>I need to adjust TE
10:41<drac_boy>poor you andythenorth :-|
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10:41<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: you are liking the maths...what am I doing wrong? :(
10:42<andythenorth>when I test my formula in excel it works
10:42<andythenorth>but I'm coming out with ridiculously low T/E values
10:42<Eddi|zuHause>checked integer vs. float math yet?
10:43<andythenorth>also, the weights are insanely wrong there
10:43<andythenorth>so that's probably the cause
10:43<andythenorth>total_weight is much too high
10:43<andythenorth>I'll fix that first :P
10:44<Eddi|zuHause>my calculation looks like this: file.write(' tractive_effort_coefficient: %s;\n'%('0' if traction_type in ["Wagon","Wagon/Narrow"] else '1.0*%s/%s/10'%(max_te,weight),))
10:45<Eddi|zuHause>where max_te is in kN and weight is in t
10:46<Eddi|zuHause>1.0 is a magic constant to ensure float math, and 10 is earth's acceleration
10:47<andythenorth>I'll fix my weight problem first
10:47<Eddi|zuHause>using 9.81 there caused wrong values
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10:48<andythenorth>might be because weights are 1/4 in some places, not others
10:49<Eddi|zuHause>nml handles that
10:49<andythenorth>not inside my python though :P
10:49<Eddi|zuHause>do yourself a favour and keep everything in "sane" units
10:51<andythenorth>i.e. work only in t?
10:51<andythenorth>then go to 1/4t only where needed?
10:51<Eddi|zuHause>you don't need to go 1/4t anywhere
10:51<Eddi|zuHause>because nml does that for you
10:52<Eddi|zuHause>file.write(' weight: %s tons;\n'%(weight,))
10:52<andythenorth>not in the cbs
10:52<andythenorth>most of them require nfo-style units
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10:52<Eddi|zuHause>need a way to apply unit conversion there too
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10:58<Eddi|zuHause>[GRF] Assembling openttd.nfo
10:58<Eddi|zuHause>Error on sprite 3314.
10:59<Eddi|zuHause>//!!Error (141): ID 08 out of valid range (00..07).
10:59<Eddi|zuHause> 3314 * 7 03 05 01 08 00 17 00
11:00<Eddi|zuHause>and why does that prevent openttd from compiling, if there was an error in grf processing?!?
11:01<Eddi|zuHause>> nforenum --version
11:01<Eddi|zuHause>NFORenum 6.0.0 r924 - Copyright (C) 2004-2012 by Dale McCoy
11:08<Rubidium>because in the "normal" use case of compiling that for distros failing is better
11:10<Eddi|zuHause>imho nforenum is way too strict here, that should merely be a warning
11:11<Eddi|zuHause>so which grfcodec version do i need?
11:11<Rubidium>well, for me it compiles just fine so I have no idea what goes wrong for you
11:11<Rubidium>maybe you've got an older nforenum somewhere?
11:13<@Alberth>or an old ~/.nfo<something> folder ?
11:13<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, has files from 31 oct 2010 in it
11:14<Eddi|zuHause>fine. works now
11:15<Eddi|zuHause>but still, out-of-range should only be a warning
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11:29*andythenorth is baffled still
11:29<andythenorth>"10 * (adjusted_te_coefficient / 255) * total_weight" produces the correct result
11:29<andythenorth>but returning just "adjusted_te_coefficient" to the cb doesn't
11:33<@Alberth>and 10 * (adjusted_te_coefficient // 255) * total_weight ? (add a 'floor' to the division)
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11:36<@Alberth>and perhaps clamp 10 * (...) too?
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11:47<andythenorth>it's almost as though I've read the spec wrong :P
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11:49<Djohaal>wow, this palce is crowded compared to the simutrans IRC o.o
11:50<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: if you want rounding, you must do the / as the last operation
11:50<@Alberth>Djohaal: most people don't say anything at all :)
11:50<Eddi|zuHause>so (10*te*weight)//255
11:52<Djohaal>it's 118 users opposed to
11:53<andythenorth>I failed to explain that the "(10*te*weight)//255" is just a check I'm printing out ;)
11:53<andythenorth>and it's using the correct value
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12:00*andythenorth wonders if the game could be fixed
12:01<andythenorth>dicking around with TE and weight for articulated vehicles is becoming....blearch
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12:04<Eddi|zuHause>i agree
12:04<Eddi|zuHause>there's nothing preventing the game from looping over all articulated parts and summing up TE itself
12:04<andythenorth>what about weight?
12:04<andythenorth>the issue I have is that I have to put all the weight onto the lead vehicle
12:04<andythenorth>which results in insane TE
12:05<andythenorth>then I have to account for refitting to variable numbers of trailers, which causes variable consist weight
12:05<andythenorth>and I have to account for weight transfer from trailers to tractor unit
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12:07<andythenorth>wonder if some of my calculations are being shafted by non-floating maths in game
12:08<Eddi|zuHause>well, if you do it like me, and count max_te in kN until the very end, at least the adjusting for different weight is trivial
12:09*andythenorth reads code from Eddi|zuHause again
12:11<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: where is max_te defined / derived?
12:11<Eddi|zuHause>it's taken directly from the tracking table
12:11<andythenorth>so you know the TE values
12:12*andythenorth doesn't know them :P
12:12<Eddi|zuHause>some entries in the tracking table are fixed numbers (from wikipedia), others are calculated ones (e.g. from MB's forum post)
12:12<andythenorth>I just want to normalise the TE value by only using the weight of the lead vehicle
12:12<Eddi|zuHause>others are just taking weight*acceleration
12:13<andythenorth>TE is: 10 * coeff * weight ?
12:13<andythenorth>according to nfo spec
12:13<andythenorth>so if lead vehicle weight is 10 and total weight is 30
12:14<Eddi|zuHause>so if you have 100t and 1.1m/s^2 acceleration, then you have 110kN te
12:14<andythenorth>10 * (coeff / 3) * weight should get me the correct result
12:14<andythenorth>3 being derived from "total weight / lead vehicle weight"
12:14<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: handle the two steps separately
12:15<Eddi|zuHause>in the first step you calculate TE in kN of each individual vehicle (0 for wagons)
12:15<Eddi|zuHause>in the second step, sum up all values from the articulated parts
12:16<Eddi|zuHause>in the third step, calculate the coefficient from the total values
12:16<Eddi|zuHause>do not try to merge these steps into one
12:16<andythenorth>so I have to know TE?
12:16<Eddi|zuHause>no, you can calculate TE by weight*acceleration
12:16<andythenorth>acceleration is derived from?
12:17<Eddi|zuHause>some meaningful default value
12:17<Eddi|zuHause>"from 0 to 100 in x seconds"
12:17<andythenorth>is it 0 for unpowered vehicles?
12:18<Eddi|zuHause>i'd just throw some arbitrary value as acceleration, like 3, or 2.5
12:18<andythenorth>you know that default game uses ~3 for RVs?
12:18<Eddi|zuHause>1.1 is the value of some commuter trains from CETS
12:18<Eddi|zuHause>i don't know that
12:19<Eddi|zuHause>but it sounds like some roughly sensible guessed value
12:19<andythenorth>weight * 3 will give you TE for the default RVs
12:19<andythenorth>give or take some rounding
12:19<Eddi|zuHause>sounds fine
12:19<Eddi|zuHause>for rail vehicles it should be less
12:19<andythenorth>let's see
12:20<andythenorth>total TE is just "lead vehicle weight * 3" in that case
12:21<andythenorth>and to express that as the coefficient?
12:21<Eddi|zuHause>the formula i posted earlier
12:22<andythenorth>can't weight be resolved out?
12:23<andythenorth>if te = weight * 3?
12:23<Eddi|zuHause>because here it's the total consist weight
12:26<andythenorth>do I need some parentheses in my calculation?
12:26<andythenorth> adjusted_te_coefficient = 1.0 * total_te / total_weight / 10
12:27<Eddi|zuHause>as long as it's only * and /, it will be evaluated from left to right
12:27*andythenorth failed that recent facebook test :P
12:27<valhallasw>that's probably because that facebook test was wrong
12:27<Eddi|zuHause>what facebook test?
12:28<valhallasw>I think it was something like 'what does a/b*c evaluate to'
12:28<valhallasw>but slightly more ambiguous
12:28<andythenorth>3 * 40 + 1 or something
12:28<valhallasw>(I think there was an operator missing)
12:28<andythenorth>anyway I got it wrong
12:28<andythenorth>ok, so all the values are the same as before
12:29<andythenorth>which is reassuring
12:29<valhallasw>anyway; adding parentheses to clarify meaning is always a good idea ;-)
12:29<valhallasw>because you're screaming
12:30<Eddi|zuHause>because you have bad grammar
12:30<valhallasw>and because you're using memes incorrectly
12:31<andythenorth>so part of the problem is that my trucks are severely under-weight
12:32<Eddi|zuHause>some articulated trucks rely on the weight of the load for proper TE
12:32<andythenorth>and of the trailer
12:32<Eddi|zuHause>they can even lift an axle to increase it
12:32<andythenorth>I need to write more code :P
12:33<Eddi|zuHause>so lead_TE = 3*(lead_weight + 0.5*trailer_weight)
12:34<Scuddles>what ridiculous vehicle does pj1k need next
12:35<Eddi|zuHause>i never undertood why it's called pj1k when it's actually ukrs2
12:35<andythenorth>project 1000
12:35<Eddi|zuHause>and it's advertised everywhere as such
12:37<Scuddles>besides, the grf is still called proj1000.grf
12:37<Scuddles>actually, I lie
12:37<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: it originates here
12:37<Scuddles>I meant hipster instead of habit
12:37<Scuddles>ukrs2 is sooo mainstream
12:37<Scuddles>no photogrey minus points
12:37*andythenorth discovers some errors
12:38<andythenorth>calculating weight as a function of length is maybe not that smart
12:38<Eddi|zuHause>@calc 7*12*2.54
12:38<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: 213.36
12:38<andythenorth>especially when the length is deliberately set incorrectly
12:40<Eddi|zuHause>you need to consider the additional weight of the engine
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12:41<andythenorth>it might be easier to just manually set weights
12:41<andythenorth>deriving everything can have unexpected consequences when you introduce cheating further up the chain :P
12:42<andythenorth>I have to cheat vehicle length for articulated trucks
12:42<Eddi|zuHause>that usually means that you do a calculation step too early in the chain
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12:47<andythenorth>it would be solved if vehicles had two length values
12:47<andythenorth>which I guess is my next step :P
12:47<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r24041 /branches/1.2/ (5 files in 3 dirs):
12:47<CIA-1>OpenTTD: [1.2] -Backport from trunk:
12:47<CIA-1>OpenTTD: - Fix: After opening a text window with the monospaced font, all other text started glitching (r24038)
12:47<CIA-1>OpenTTD: - Feature: Allow display of baseset textfiles (r24037)
12:54<CIA-1>OpenTTD: translators * r24042 /trunk/src/lang/ (41 files in 2 dirs): (log message trimmed)
12:54<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
12:54<CIA-1>OpenTTD: english_US - 2 changes by Rubidium
12:54<CIA-1>OpenTTD: french - 2 changes by OliTTD, glx
12:54<CIA-1>OpenTTD: hungarian - 2 changes by Brumi
12:54<CIA-1>OpenTTD: italian - 2 changes by lorenzodv
12:54<CIA-1>OpenTTD: korean - 1 changes by telk5093
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13:00<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r24043 /branches/1.2/src/lang/ (49 files): [1.2] -Backport from trunk: string updates
13:01<Djohaal>is cargodist multiplayer compatible?
13:01<Eddi|zuHause>Djohaal: it should be, as long as all players have the same cargodist version
13:02<Eddi|zuHause>Djohaal: it's only half as fun without infrastructure sharing, though
13:02<Djohaal>also, does openTTD auto sync contents between players of playing on multiplayer?
13:02<Eddi|zuHause>openttd does not "sync" contents other than on join
13:02<Eddi|zuHause>it does all calculations on every client
13:02<Djohaal>but I mean, if I have X,Y and Z packs installed, will it tell anyone who joins my game to download those packs?
13:02<Eddi|zuHause>and throws one out when it's not in sync
13:03<Djohaal>or we have to sync content packs manually/
13:03<Eddi|zuHause>it does for NewGRFs, but not for patches like CargoDist
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13:04<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r24044 /branches/1.2/src/lang/unfinished/ (12 files): [1.2] -Fix: forgot some languages
13:04<Djohaal>yeah I'm talking about newGRFs
13:05<Rubidium>OpenTTD doesn't sync NewGRFs on join. It will just say you don't have the right ones before joining and gives you the option to try to download them from the ingame content system
13:05<Rubidium>if it's not found there, the user has to download it themselves
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13:08<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r24045 /branches/1.2/ (6 files in 4 dirs): [1.2] -Update: some documentation
13:11<Rhamphoryncus>Oookay, I have no idea what caused that collision. Must be a quirk of the PF signal. All I was doing was adding more station tiles at the end and removing them from the start (which leaves ordinary track, but the PF signal must see that as remove+add)
13:11<Djohaal>also, is shared infrastructure another OpenTTD mod or just a setting?
13:13<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r24046 /tags/1.2.0-RC3/: -Release: 1.2.0-RC3
13:13<Eddi|zuHause>it's a separate (and very old) patch
13:14<Eddi|zuHause>it's also a very incomplete feature
13:22<Eddi|zuHause>hm... we need a solution for the purchase list column width, other than applying spaces to strings
13:24<Rubidium>why not limit yourself to ~60 pixels?
13:24<Eddi|zuHause>because a 16lu vehicle is 65 pixels
13:25<Eddi|zuHause>plus a few pixels for borders
13:25<Eddi|zuHause>i'm thinking just a "misc" property like the depot offset
13:26<Eddi|zuHause>and then it uses the maximum over all GRFs
13:29<Rubidium>then in no time it'll be at least 8*32 pixels wide
13:29<Rubidium>because they want to show their complete train
13:29<Djohaal>are there any industry chain newGRFs? I can't seem to find anything
13:32<Rubidium>Djohaal: I can't think of a set that doesn't have a chain
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13:32<Djohaal>I guess their names were cryptic because I didn't find any
13:32<Djohaal>also, can I load them on a game that already started?
13:34<Djohaal>time to restart o.o
13:34<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: so? i don't see the problem
13:35<Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: get a piece of paper with lines on it
13:35<Rubidium>write a random letter at the begin and end of each line
13:35<Rubidium>now... can you easily spot which letter at the end belongs to a letter at the front?
13:36<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: then enforce a maximum
13:36<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: but people could do that already anyway
13:36<Rubidium>you'll simply get so much gray void that it becomes very hard to link things to eachother
13:36<Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: but only GRF local
13:37<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: just spaces are a notoriously unreliable way to align things
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13:37<Rubidium>instead of foo's single train that is 256 pixels long and thus aligns the rest at 256 pixels as well
13:37<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: then treat the alignment property also grf-local. "works" for the depot offset :)
13:38<+michi_cc>Aren't we stripping that out?
13:38<Rubidium>michi_cc: no idea
13:38<+michi_cc>Or wasn't that for the vehicle list? I don't remember anymore.
13:38<Eddi|zuHause>i don't see support for SETX in nml
13:39<Eddi|zuHause>there was quite some controversy about SETX
13:40<@Alberth>setx is useless with variable sized fonts
13:42<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: the purchase sprites don't depend on font size (yet)
13:44<Eddi|zuHause>btw, michi_cc: the new vehicle speed roundings seem fine. except for the higher speeds it's usually 1 too high (201, 331, etc.)
13:45<+michi_cc>Well, there's only so much you can do with rounding if you have a coarser unit in there.
13:45<Eddi|zuHause>but i guess that's the effect of the kmh-ish->kmh conversion
13:47<Eddi|zuHause>and the maintenance costs are broken, it lists them all as 0... not sure why
13:47<Djohaal>aw how sad
13:47<Djohaal>ECS farms don't have those huge cool fields :(
13:47<andythenorth>SETX is bollocks
13:48<andythenorth>it's 'the' reason OzTrans flounced off
13:48<andythenorth>*among many
13:48*andythenorth plays the one line python game: self.truck_cab_length, self.truck_total_length = [int(i) for i in config.get(id, 'truck_length_cab_total').split('|')]
13:49<@Alberth>looks like russian roulette to me :)
13:50<Eddi|zuHause>i would have used map...
13:51<Eddi|zuHause>[f(x) for x in a] is the same as map(f, a)
13:53<Eddi|zuHause>so "map(int, config.get().split())"
13:54<Eddi|zuHause>not really much of a difference
13:54<Eddi|zuHause>just a matter of habit, i guess
13:56<@Alberth>one that is difficult to generalize to more complicated cases :)
13:56<Eddi|zuHause>that's what lambdas are for :=
13:57*andythenorth sees
13:57<andythenorth>I could never figure map, but for some reasons [f(x) for x in a] is blindingly obvious to me
13:57<andythenorth>brains are odd
13:58<@Alberth>good night all
13:58<Eddi|zuHause>you've never learned haskell :)
13:58<Eddi|zuHause>(or any language, for that matter)
13:58<andythenorth>I learnt actionscript once
13:59<andythenorth>I was taught pascal in my engineering degree, by computer scientists
13:59<andythenorth>but I didn't go to the lectures :P
14:01<Djohaal>I spy with my eye
14:01<Djohaal>some pak128 graphics in mah open TTD
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14:02<frosch123>I spy with my eye
14:03<frosch123>some simutrans player
14:03<andythenorth>I should record my toddler saying 'make choo choo' on repeat
14:03<andythenorth>and add it to my grfs :P
14:03<frosch123>engine start sound?
14:05<frosch123>@topic set 1 1.1.5, 1.2.0-RC3
14:05-!-DorpsGek changed the topic of #openttd to: 1.1.5, 1.2.0-RC3 | Website: * (translator: translator, server list: servers, wiki: wiki, patches & bug-reports: bugs, revision log: vcs, release info: finger) | Don't ask to ask, just ask | 'Latest' is not a valid version, ever | English only
14:06<Djohaal>yay I herped something
14:06<Djohaal>'cause I got duplicate cars
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14:08<Eddi|zuHause>Djohaal: that happens when you mess with newgrfs
14:08<Djohaal>although I just built my started rail loop, too lazy to fix
14:09<Eddi|zuHause>Djohaal: try "resetenginepool"
14:09<Djohaal>Eddi|zuHause: already got trains moving around too lol XD
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14:18<Djohaal>you know what's a game that I miss?
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14:21<frosch123>bouncing babies?
14:21<Eddi|zuHause>blobby volley? :)
14:22<frosch123>hmm, yeah, there are some similarities between bouncing babies and blobby volley
14:23-!-Devroush [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
14:23<frosch123>though there are rougly 16 years between them
14:23<frosch123>hmm, damn, i am too old. there are even 12 years between blobby volley and today
14:25<Eddi|zuHause>hehe :p
14:29<Eddi|zuHause>now they have this fancy new stuff like angry birds
14:29<SpComb>best part about iPad so far: playing GTA3 on it
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14:29<Eddi|zuHause>which i never played
14:29<SpComb>(not mine, someone else's)
14:30<Eddi|zuHause>(i wouldn't admit to owning GTA3 either) ;o
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14:31<SpComb>I wouldn't admit to owning an iDevice
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14:31<SpComb>geek prestige depends on it
14:31<Eddi|zuHause>hence the irony :=
14:32<SpComb>too many levels of irony, I'm lost
14:32<Djohaal>I can't build trains longer than 7 units
14:32<Djohaal>oh god
14:32<SpComb>but playing GTA3 on a friend's iPad was very fun
14:33<Eddi|zuHause>there's a setting for that
14:34<Djohaal>time to re-fiddle
14:34<Chris_Booth>SpComb I find you don't have enough hands to play GTA on the iPad
14:34<andythenorth>SpComb: iHas more iDevices than iCare to admit
14:35<Eddi|zuHause>you mean iDare :)
14:35<SpComb>Chris_Booth: that's what you have friends + multitouch for :)
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14:36<SpComb>but yeah, it's all camera&aim fail when you're trying to deal with something
14:36<Eddi|zuHause>i'm probably too far out of the "gaming scene"... i only ever played GTA1
14:36<SpComb>most comical bit is how slowly the bazooka aim rotates around while you're in the middle of a firefight
14:36<Chris_Booth>GTA V is being developed at the moment
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14:37<SpComb>Eddi|zuHause: I've played GTA 1 (UK and US versions), GTA 2 (multiplayer!), GTA 3 (flying dodo for multiple minutes!), and GTA IV (not played through yet, but on the third island)
14:38<Eddi|zuHause>is there a difference between UK and US versions?
14:38<SpComb>hmm, I'd reinstall GTA IV right now, but I'm going to be reinstalling my windows too soon, and the GTA IV licensing stuff is a massive hassle :(
14:38<SpComb>Eddi|zuHause: well, different content, dunno
14:38<Chris_Booth>flying dodo, was that the one where you had to distribute naughty leaflets?
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14:40<Eddi|zuHause>SpComb: get cracks :)
14:40<Eddi|zuHause>(opposing to widespread myths, cracks are actually legal, as long as you own an original)
14:41<Mazur>I see there is a new 1.2.0 RC, but the 1.2.0-RC3 Generic binaries for i686 are not in place, yet, though they are listed.
14:42<Eddi|zuHause>Mazur: tried another mirror?
14:42<Mazur>I tried the official site.
14:42<Eddi|zuHause>not what i asked
14:42<Eddi|zuHause>the "official site" redirects you to the mirror closest to you
14:43<Mazur>Yes, and does not mention any other mirrors, or even their existence.
14:43<Eddi|zuHause>but you can pick another mirror by changing the url
14:43<Chris_Booth> or ETC
14:44<Mazur>Ah, guessed at de, no response yet.
14:44<Eddi|zuHause>it's <country>
14:45<Mazur>I gathered than from the hu of Hung(a)ry.
14:45<Mazur>Nl has them not yet, but gb had.
14:45<Mazur>Thank you.
14:45<Eddi|zuHause>also "master" should work
14:45<Mazur>O'd have preferred the doctors mirror.
14:46<Mazur>I would not trust the Master.
14:46<Eddi|zuHause>whatever ;)
14:47<Eddi|zuHause>i'd not trust a mad man in a box :)
14:48*andythenorth ponders counting number of wheels to calculate trailer weights
14:48<Chris_Booth>I trust jack
14:48<Mazur>You don't know jack!
14:48<Eddi|zuHause>the gay guy that doesn't die?
14:49<Eddi|zuHause>who's the most notorious liar of all?
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14:53*andythenorth wonders when 'polishing the set' strays into 'mindless complexity for no real gain' :P
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14:56<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: isn't that point already crossed when starting a set in the first place? :p
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14:57<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: depends on your philosophy: is making stuff for the game a more or less pointless activity than any other?
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15:10<Markk>[1]Mark: Sorry 'bout that.
15:14<Djohaal>the phantom station exploit from simutrans works in OTDD as well
15:15<Chris_Booth>what exploit?
15:15<__ln__>what OTDD?
15:15<Djohaal>Chris_Booth: build very long station connecting to far-ish factory
15:15<Djohaal>then remove the in-between blocks
15:16<Chris_Booth>thats not an exploit, just station walking
15:16<Djohaal>I think it's an exploit, but whatever
15:17<Rhamphoryncus>Loooong used since the original days of TTD
15:17<Djohaal>you leave both ends of the station, non contigous
15:17<Djohaal>so you can cover a very large area with few blocks
15:17<Rhamphoryncus>It's abusable, certainly, but "exploit" is the wrong word.
15:18<Rhamphoryncus>Just like building a train at the end of an opponent's station in order to crash them is abuse
15:18<Rhamphoryncus>and destroying their trucks is abuse
15:18<frosch123>Djohaal: you can just as well press ctrl while building a station
15:18<__ln__>Rhamphoryncus: you can't partially demolish a station in TTD.
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15:18<frosch123>you do not have to remove any tiles in between
15:18<Rhamphoryncus>__ln__: Can't you walk bus depots?
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15:19<Rhamphoryncus>It was hard because there were no drivethrough and you couldn't remove the middle of a road. You had to plan ahead and build all the town's roads yourself
15:19<__ln__>Rhamphoryncus: maybe that way.
15:19<Eddi|zuHause>Djohaal: so you've not found the CTRL key yet :)
15:20<Djohaal>I know the CTRL key does many magic and erotic things in OTTD, but I didn't discover all its uses yet
15:20<Rhamphoryncus>ctrl is full of magic behaviour, and like gimp there's often very different results for ctrl-drag vs drag-ctrl
15:21<Djohaal>gimp? oh nose
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15:28<Djohaal>question, how does auto refit work?
15:28<frosch123>you need a set which supports it
15:28<Zuu>Eg OpenGFX+ Trains
15:28<frosch123>afaik there is still only ogfx+trains
15:29<Zuu>With it, you get an option to set the cargo to refit to. Refit happen between unload and load.
15:29<Djohaal>the vector set doesn't support it it seems
15:30<Zuu>If the set doesn't have auto-refit you can still send the train to depot after unload/transfer, refit and then back to the station for loading.
15:30<Djohaal>too much hassle
15:30<Djohaal>question, do OGFX vehicles support the ECS goods per default?
15:31<Djohaal>or I'm stuck with its TTD conversion?
15:31<frosch123>ogfx+ supports them
15:31<frosch123>the "+" is important :)
15:31<Zuu>With "+" == NewGRF. Without "+" == base set
15:31<+michi_cc>The newest UKRS2 might support it as well I think.
15:32<Djohaal>time to restart my game for the fifith time
15:40<Djohaal>OGFX+ does support everything
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15:50<Rhamphoryncus>I'm using ukrs2 with autorefit
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15:53<Djohaal>is there a shortcut to close all open windows?
15:54<frosch123>ctrl+delete to also close sticky windows or so
15:54<frosch123>though why would one want to do that :)
15:55<__ln__>ctrl+alt+delete is also useful for closing windows®
15:55<Djohaal>I love how open source chairman faces are so identical to TTD's
15:55<frosch123>yeah, and ctrl+alt+shift+delete will display the cost for a new computer
15:56<frosch123>Djohaal: hmm? aren't they entirely different?
15:56<Djohaal>I found them awfully similar
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15:57<Rhamphoryncus>The art style is intentionally similar. The palette IS the same.
15:57<__ln__>how many earrings in the open ones?
15:58<Djohaal>I always end up as a fat african woman, somehow
15:58<Djohaal>with huge hoop earrings
15:59<Rhamphoryncus>Fat? There may be something wrong with your judgement :P
16:00<Rhamphoryncus>The faces show nothing
16:00<Rhamphoryncus>They're neutral
16:01<Djohaal>they look a bit fat for me :p
16:03<Djohaal>and I love how a steel mill can run only on coal
16:03<__ln__>zomg, i just checked it myself, and indeed the opengfx females have two earrings.
16:04<Djohaal>no ships that can haul sand ><
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16:05<__ln__>so that means FS#69 is actually resolved, against lord Darkvater's decision.
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16:07<__ln__>mahmoud: stop
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16:13<Djohaal>question, can we build true subways like in simutrans?
16:14<__ln__>we can't
16:15<__ln__>the map basically doesn't support almost any features that TTD map didn't.
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16:16*Rubidium envisions another thread being started on the forum
16:19<Zuu>Interesting "bug".
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16:22<V453000>jesus christ :D
16:23<Djohaal>I can't autorefit my ships
16:24*andythenorth wonders how to tell devzone to build BANDIT
16:30<frosch123>Rubidium: merge of ottd and simutrans?
16:31<andythenorth>v 2.1?
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16:32<andythenorth>"We shouldn't need to make special/separate versions for either game"
16:33<andythenorth>^ applies to ottd and simutrans
16:33<andythenorth>in fact, also applies to lomo
16:33<andythenorth>so merge that too
16:33<andythenorth>for v3.0 we can merge minecraft
16:33<andythenorth>and dope wars, and tetris, and Duke Nukem Forever
16:34<andythenorth>but it won't be done until we've merged windows solitaire :P
16:34<V453000>please also merge photoshop and nml compiler
16:34<andythenorth>is there a patch to put solitaire into ottd?
16:34<V453000>code it with trains and pre-signals
16:34<frosch123>andythenorth: try to make a newgrf for it
16:34<frosch123>use the can-attach cb
16:34<Rubidium>andythenorth: actually, it won't be done until OpenTTD is used to develop and distribute its own hardware
16:35<Rubidium>frosch123: that's a genious idea
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16:35<andythenorth>how would you deal the initial cards?
16:37<Zuu>But hurry until 1.3, when that leap hole will be closen ;-)
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16:40<Ammler>new tilegame not even partof the changelog :-)
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16:41<Zuu>Ammler: That would maybe give too many features for a "hopfully the last release candidate"
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16:47<Ammler>Rubidium: also a bit silly is that you enable strip for the releases only
16:47<Ammler>then distros need to disable it again
16:47<jazzyjaffa>Do any of the AIs focus on shipping? I need to test my new pathfinder.
16:48<Zuu>There is wmDot
16:48<Zuu>Not sure how competetive it is.
16:49<jazzyjaffa>I only need it to make a buttload of ships. I'll try wmDOT, thanks!
16:49<Zuu> <-- jazzyjaffa
16:49<Rubidium>Ammler: most (sane) distros define everything they want and don't want
16:49<jazzyjaffa>Ahh, thanks didn't see that page
16:49<Rubidium>Ammler: that way things break hard when stuff is missing, and stuff won't be automagically picked up when it shouldn't be built
16:51<Ammler>Rubidium: is there beside --disable-strip another setting which might be useful for the debug package?
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17:07<Eddi|zuHause>hm... is python rounding things differently than nml?
17:08<Hirundo>NML rounds to nearest
17:09<Eddi|zuHause>the offsets are totally wrong now...
17:09<Eddi|zuHause>strange... there aren't really any divisions in the relevant code
17:09<Hirundo>at least... floats are
17:09<Hirundo>for properties
17:11<Eddi|zuHause>should be all integer
17:12<Eddi|zuHause>probably the bug is in some other math
17:18<rane>any way to improve cursor refresh rate on windows?
17:18<rane>it's not very smooth
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17:21<@peter1138>yeah, hold tab ;)
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17:28<Djohaal>is accelerating the game impossible in multiplayer
17:29<Djohaal>or there's some hidden setting?
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18:11<Nat_aS>is there any way to set up timetabling so that trains sharing orders will try to become evenly spaced out on the network?
18:11<Nat_aS>ie don't leave the station untill the other train is leaving the opisate station.
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18:12<hav>you can do that manually, yes
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18:14<@Terkhen>good night
18:14<Rhamphoryncus>The orders window has a button at the top to take you to a timetabling window, but it involves a lot of manual adjustment and tends to break
18:14<hav>use the "autofill" on a train what fills up the timetable automatically
18:15<hav>add some days to every way when breakdowns is turned on to avoid late
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18:16<hav>and adjust the start date for every train manually to keep distance between trains
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18:19<Djohaal>dumbest question ever
18:19<Djohaal>how to rotate camera?
18:19<frosch123>you can only rotate it around the normal axis of your screen
18:19<frosch123>by turning your screen
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18:23*Zuu just made a silly irrelated cross-use of an API.
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18:28<Zuu>When the traffic light at west is green, the generated vehicles are larger. (not OpenTTD)
18:28<Nat_aS>why does this game not support SC2k style map rotation
18:29<Nat_aS>(the map rotates but the sprites stay the same)
18:29<Eddi|zuHause>because we have no graphics for that
18:29<Zuu>Ctrl+X is your frind
18:29<Nat_aS>you don't need new graphics
18:29<Eddi|zuHause>Nat_aS: e.g. airports
18:29<Nat_aS>yeah airports would break
18:29<Eddi|zuHause>Nat_aS: or banks
18:30<Nat_aS>but if you did it like SC2k did, it could work without needing too many new sprites
18:30<Eddi|zuHause>Nat_aS: sc2k had 2 sprites
18:30<Eddi|zuHause>per house
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18:31<Eddi|zuHause>Nat_aS: and no newgrfs
18:33<Nat_aS>IIRC houses just got turned around when the map rotated
18:33<Eddi|zuHause>no, all houses had a left-facing and a right-facing view
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18:34<Eddi|zuHause>only for the back side they would get turned around
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18:37<hav>what is the point of the rotation?
18:38<hav>you can make transparent or disable things to look behind structures
18:40<Zuu>Nat_aS: Though, if you just want to rotate airports, you gat get OpenGFX+ Airports and you can rotate them (before construction) :-)
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18:43<Zuu>gat => can
18:43*Zuu wonders how I succeded with that typo
18:44<hav>you cen gat
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19:25<krinn>TrueBrain ?
19:27<krinn>or Zuu i need to speak to you too
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19:29<Zuu>hi krinn, I need to go to bed soonish
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19:51<@planetmaker>krinn: don't highlight T B without stating your question or desire in the same line
19:51<@planetmaker>g'night, Zuu
19:52<@planetmaker>doing so is generally a good behaviour. As then reading back will tell the person the topic and maybe think of a question
19:52<@planetmaker>s/question/answer or reply/
19:52<krinn>planetmaker, yeah sorry, not a question, it's to see if he got the bug report for the railpathfinder
19:52<@planetmaker>bugs go to the bug tracker. Elsewhere they're lost
19:52<@planetmaker>if it's there: then it's not lost.
19:53<krinn>it's for the squirrel lib not openttd
19:53<@planetmaker>a rail path finder sounds like OpenTTD...
19:54<@planetmaker>and as openttd implements a big part of squirrel... it could go there, too
19:54<krinn>yep, but this is for this one
19:55<@planetmaker> <-- you mean that?
19:55<Djohaal>where's momtown now
19:56<krinn>yep that one planetmaker will send a ticket
19:57<@planetmaker>in this case you might then want to ask one of the two to look at it with the issue URL you create / get. Not sure they read that regularily
19:59<krinn>you may look at
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20:26<Djohaal>I just made an overcomplicated network
20:26<Djohaal>and it runs like clockwork
20:32-!-Biolunar [] has quit [Quit: All your IRC are belong to us]
20:33<Djohaal>..and that makes absolutely no sense. A chicken coop outputting wool
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20:36<TinoDidriksen>The infamous and rare Wooly Chicken cross-breed.
20:42<Nat_aS>can some platforms only load some cargos?
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20:43<Nat_aS>because Trains seem to be waiting to load at the station but not actualy loading
20:43<Nat_aS>because there is more than one platform type
20:44<sidney60>nao sei ingles
20:47<sidney60>tem algum brasileiro por aqui
20:48<Nat_aS>sorry english only
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20:53<krinn>no but trains could only load cargo if they pull wagons of that cargo
20:54<krinn>ie: trains with passenger wagon loading at a station that only provide goods
20:55<krinn>night all
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21:14<Nat_aS>it was a train with food waggons at a station that has food, but it was stoped at one of the platforms from the japanese set, a passinger platform
21:14<Nat_aS>trains at other platforms in the same station were loading food.
21:14<Nat_aS>sure there is no newgrf option for platforms to not load cargo of specific types
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---Logclosed Mon Mar 19 00:00:58 2012