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#openttd IRC Logs for 2012-03-19

---Logopened Mon Mar 19 00:00:58 2012
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04:40<dihedral>greetings
04:42<Ammler>Hello Mr D
04:42<dihedral>:-D
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04:58<@Terkhen>good morning
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05:00<@planetmaker>moin
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06:00<xiong>Good morning.
06:00<xiong>I seem to have trams available that are longer than a single tile. Do I need to construct multi-tile tram stops for them? Will they experience the same penalty as trains too long for their platforms?
06:02<@planetmaker>Not entirely sure, but I think so, yes
06:02<@planetmaker>besides it looks better :-)
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06:12<@peter1138>bah, why doesn't vpnc support certificate authentication? :(
06:17<xiong>Yes, that's true too, planetmaker.
06:20<dihedral>peter1138, because it sucks?
06:25<@peter1138>dihedral, sure. and an alternative?
06:26-!-krinn [~krinn@230.210.73.86.rev.sfr.net] has joined #openttd
06:26<dihedral>exactly that is the problem
06:26<@peter1138>useful
06:27<dihedral>use the preshared key version for group authentication
06:27<@peter1138>sure, but i need certificate authentication
06:28<krinn>hi, what is best to consider for an engine: power or tractive effort to mesure its efficiency ? Or if you prefer, what power and tractive effort does to an engine ?
06:28<dihedral>in the router you can difine multiple groups, perhaps they'd move you to a psk group for the sake of you being able to connect.
06:28<@peter1138>no, i need to use certification authentcation
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06:29<Eddi|zuHause>krinn: tractive effort is needed for low speeds, power is needed for high speeds
06:30<Eddi|zuHause>on slopes, you need both
06:30<krinn>Eddi|zuHause, you mean kinda : tractive to start moving, and once reaching a certain speed, keep accelerate until reaching power/speed limit ?
06:31<Eddi|zuHause>yes
06:32<krinn>there's a method to see if the engine have too low of one or the other (power/tractive) ?
06:33<Eddi|zuHause>the (simplified) formula for the speed limit is min(max_te, power/speed) = resistance + slope_force
06:33<@peter1138>oh well, i'll continue using this silly windows pc just for the vpn :p
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06:33<krinn>Eddi|zuHause, thank you
06:34<Eddi|zuHause>where slope_force = train_weight * slope_steepness
06:34<dihedral>peter1138, that's what i usually do, too
06:35<Eddi|zuHause>where for so called "small angles" steepness = sin(steepness) = tan(steepness)
06:35<@peter1138>i need it to connect to rdp with ssl anyway
06:35<@peter1138>(which technically shouldn't be required because it's over the vpn, but, you know...)
06:36<krinn>Eddi|zuHause, thx i have base to work on now
06:36<@peter1138>well, i suppose there's identification in ssl too, heh
06:36<xiong>krinn, you will read a great deal about both power and TE. Obviously you want more of both. Also, you usually want a higher top speed and, if you play (sensibly) with breakdowns on, higher reliability. Finally, you might consider that shorter engines require shorter platforms.
06:37<xiong>So you want a lot from an engine and you are looking for ways to decide on the tradeoffs. I can give you a rule of thumb or two that may be easier than wading through the math.
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06:38<krinn>xiong: i'm afraid i'm limit to use math :)
06:38<krinn>xiong: it's for an AI that need to consider what engine to use
06:39<xiong>If you are in passenger service, you don't need much power but high TE means you will leave the station quicker and recover faster from breakdowns and jams. High top speed is very important; pax value decays quickly.
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06:40<xiong>If you are in heavy freight you want plenty of power and TE; consider multihead trains. I've often put 4 engines on a train pulling iron ore. TE is less important here, assuming you have good stations; and top speed almost irrelevant.
06:40<xiong>Light freight falls somewhere midway between the two sets of considerations.
06:41<xiong>Since you're not eager to do a lot of math -- and it might be a stinky AI if it burned up a lot of bits scribbling on the back of an envelope -- I'd suggest something heuristic.
06:42<krinn>my considerations are low: try to not take train X with tractive of 1 because of speed of 10000000 (or invert)
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06:42<krinn>and best, try to take one with a not bad ratio of both
06:43<xiong>Pick the "best" engine available according to a very rough guess and see how fast it accelerates and how fast it goes straight ahead. If it's too slow, change engines. If it's still too slow, multihead.
06:44<xiong>If the top speed is too low and it's passenger service, you look for an engine with... a higher top speed. If top speed is too low and it's heavy freight, look for an engine with more power... or you multihead.
06:44<xiong>If acceleration is too slow then you probable need more TE, either way.
06:45<xiong>Is that helpful?
06:45<krinn>not really, because of my case :)
06:45<xiong>Sorry; I don't follow you. What is your case?
06:45<krinn>i cannot take decisions after the engine is running, but prior, can't waste time to analyze how an engine is then doing, i need to "guess" before it is create
06:45<krinn>it's for an AI
06:46<xiong>Of course you can make a decision after the train is in service. Track its performance and, if that sucks, replace the engine at the bottom of its cycle.
06:47<krinn>if you know how the API handle trains, you would know the fewer you try to alter a train or send it to depot, the better
06:47<xiong>Oh, I don't doubt it. And no, I know nothing about AI internals.
06:48<xiong>But the rational approach is heuristic. You can't anticipate every parameter your AI will find on the track.
06:48<@planetmaker>krinn, there's no universal answer to your question
06:48<xiong>Say Joe decides to use a freight multiplier of x20. Your calculations are all going bust.
06:48<krinn>planetmaker, yep i know, i'm just trying to find an "accepatble" one
06:48<@planetmaker>it (highly) depends on the purpose of the train, the load, amount of wagons it shall pull, track curvature and steepness
06:48<xiong>Say this map is flat... and that one is hilly.
06:49<xiong>"Acceptable"... even at the very low bar of simply covering the route at all... is no easy feat.
06:50<krinn>i see at wiki tractive effort forumla says for power -> P(ower) = F (tractive effort) * v (speed)
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06:50<drac_boy>hi
06:50<xiong>If I wrote an AI, I would have a failsafe routine that detected stalled trains -- going 1 mph for more than a few ticks -- and built a depot right there, ordered the pig off the main, and dealt with it.
06:51<Eddi|zuHause>krinn: careful: the wiki means "effective tractive effort" there, not "maximum tractive effort" [what is given in the purchase list]
06:51<krinn>hi drac_boy
06:51<xiong>In fact, I'd want to build the depot *behind* the stall, reverse it, so it's going downslope, and into that depot.
06:51<drac_boy>xiong why did it stall in first place tho?
06:51<drac_boy>hi krinn
06:51<Eddi|zuHause>krinn: hence "effective tractive effort" = min("maximum tractive effort", "power"/"current speed")
06:52<Eddi|zuHause>krinn: at max speed, the min() usually returns the second parameter
06:52<xiong>Because I didn't anticipate every possible combination of maps, NewGRFs, and settings when I wrote the AI, drac_boy.
06:52<xiong>I've seen otherwise respectable AIs do some real dumb stuff sometimes.
06:53<drac_boy>xiong I don't think theres really any need to. just add up power+weightmultiplier+trainweight=likely limit
06:53<krinn>Eddi|zuHause, looks like the power/speed vs tractive effort is what i'm looking for
06:53<drac_boy>doesn't need to know what grf is running
06:53<drac_boy>I've seen one downloadable AI do it just like that before
06:54<xiong>krinn, you can try to work it all out ahead of time and that's bold. But I seriously recommend that you think about *reacting* to actual performance on the fly. That will yield a superior AI instead of just another pig.
06:55<Eddi|zuHause>krinn: a real train would also consider braking power, but the game doesn't model that
06:55<xiong>drac_boy, have you seen any AI at all put up a real fight? I mean, every AI I've tried so far is so easy to hose I don't even bother playing them anymore.
06:55<drac_boy>xiong of course the one thing that does have some issues without being coded into the AI specifically in first place is certain trains that are limited to particular wagons or lengths
06:56<Eddi|zuHause>krinn: a real train must manage to stop from <max speed> in <signal distance>
06:56<Eddi|zuHause>even downhill
06:56<xiong>How about FIRS?
06:56<drac_boy>such as one of the EMU in dbsetxl having to be at least 3 but no more than 5 coaches
06:56<Eddi|zuHause>that's usually more important than engine power
06:56<krinn>Eddi|zuHause, hopefuly it would be scary seen them breaking at 2 tiles at max speed with 10000 wagons attach to them :)
06:56<xiong>An AI that doesn't understand FIRS will fall down miserably.
06:57<drac_boy>xiong....theres no need for the AI to know..the problem would fall to poor industry coding btw
06:57<Eddi|zuHause>krinn: well, in openttd, trains stop within 1 tile :)
06:57<xiong>?
06:57<xiong>I hesitate to sound like a stuck-up ass but... FIRS is, by definition, great industry.
06:57<Eddi|zuHause>(with block signals, and a signal turning red suddenly)
06:57<drac_boy>xiong, let me give you a similar example that I never could understand...
06:58-!-sla_ro|master [~slaco@95.76.26.172] has quit [Quit: DANGER sla.ro is OFFLINE DANGER]
06:58<drac_boy>ecs animal farm ... already hauling only wools out, it says it accept fibre crops right? well ... if I as an AI saw that there was a farm nearby I would build the route to carry fibre crops. but then there lays the problem...
06:59<drac_boy>the train wouldn't even unload its first load at the animal farm at all for some weird reason..even although the animal farm did not say '0 max' at all
07:00<drac_boy>and theres other weird things like that with both ecs and firs
07:00<Eddi|zuHause>drac_boy: the problem there is that the NewGRF spec doesn't offer any sensible AI callback to tell them stuff the player could read from the readme, or the industry window
07:00<drac_boy>so its not really the AI's fault
07:01<Eddi|zuHause>only partially
07:01<xiong>Well, we see things differently... which adds to the fun. I play the cards in my hand, if possible.
07:01<drac_boy>Eddi|zuHause yeah the stockpile is one of these problem heh
07:01<xiong>Now I'd better shut up or I'll talk myself into writing an AI, which is a horribly complicated task.
07:02<drac_boy>heh heh
07:03<drac_boy>xiong I've been thinking about drawing a few things this week, we'll see what else happens first tho
07:04<xiong>Drawing is easy. I can draw all day. But this is not one game, or even a countable number of games. In a sense, it's very brave to attempt an AI of any kind.
07:05<krinn>lol xiong thank you :)
07:05<drac_boy>well xiong theres one other problem....coding these drawing into the game? :p
07:05<xiong>That's something I'm completely unable to do, drac_boy.
07:06<drac_boy>well I'm hoping for to be able to figure out some of the basics from the wiki then ask someone else to finish the last few problematic line in a day or two worth of time...hopefully
07:06<drac_boy>we'll see what really happens tho
07:07<xiong>drac_boy, http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=50450
07:08<drac_boy>dunno about that, I always use newsignal all the times :)
07:21<xiong>Link me, please.
07:22<drac_boy>its from MB so you can find it anywhere...although easier to start with the ttdxpatch wiki
07:23<xiong>Anywhere being, for example...?
07:24<@planetmaker>at the end of a google search
07:25<@planetmaker>obviously using it is not intended as it's not offered on bananas ;-)
07:25<drac_boy>planetmaker or just from a simple wiki grf url
07:25<xiong>That's not even funny, planetmaker.
07:25<@planetmaker>I know
07:25<Eddi|zuHause>newsignals is included in openttd.grf
07:26<xiong>I'm searching, right now, for "newsignals". I see an indirect reference but no actual file.
07:26<xiong>http://grfcrawler.tt-forums.net/index.php?do=search&q=signal
07:28<xiong>Since the half-dweeb who eventually coded bigsig only did half the job... and I do like PBS... I'm still looking for a decent signal set, drac_boy.
07:29<xiong>I cannot for the life of me understand why he didn't do all. Must be more difficult than I was told.
07:29<Eddi|zuHause>(now he's already insulting people who helped him?)
07:29<krinn>planetmaker, you know if the tractive effort report by openttd is one set in the vehicle grf or one return by openttd?
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07:30<@planetmaker>eh?
07:30<xiong>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=647954
07:30<xiong>"OTTD does not support newsignals and hence does not support this GRF."
07:31<Pikka>eh? @ krinn
07:31<krinn>planetmaker, the one report to an AI (the tractive effort) is a value set by newgrf maker or one report by openttd by some calc
07:31<xiong>... although given the dates on those posts, who knows now?
07:32<@planetmaker>krinn, that question makes no sense to me. A vehicle has one TE. That's it.
07:32<@planetmaker>It can be supplied by a vehicle NewGRF, of course
07:32<Eddi|zuHause>krinn: it's the value of the "maximum" TE
07:33<krinn>it can ? mean they don't need to, or can alter it ?
07:33<Eddi|zuHause>yes, yes and yes.
07:33<@planetmaker>krinn, the TE is a vehicle property. Of course it varies from vehicle to vehicle
07:33<@planetmaker>Whether it's a default vehicle, modified default or completely new vehicle is of no consequence
07:34<@planetmaker>it's just a vehicle with certain properties
07:34<@peter1138>no
07:34<Pikka>yes
07:34<@peter1138>he means is it the TE coefficent, or the actual TE
07:34<krinn>so i could build a 100000000 power, 1000000 spd with a 1 tractive effort engine, right ?
07:34<@peter1138>(i.e. the newgrf value, or the returned value)
07:34<Pikka>is that what he means though, peter1138?
07:34<@peter1138>11:31 < krinn> planetmaker, the one report to an AI (the tractive effort) is a value set by newgrf maker or one report by openttd by some calc
07:34<@peter1138>seems like it to me
07:34<krinn>and it will gave you a train that could run at amazing speed, pulling an awesome number of wagons, but need zillions km to reach it
07:35<Pikka>yes krinn
07:35<@planetmaker>http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/Action0/Vehicles/Trains <-- available properties, krinn
07:35<@peter1138>planetmaker, that's not the question
07:35<drac_boy>btw hi pikka (if you're the one who owns ukrs that is) :-)
07:35<@planetmaker>peter1138, then answer the question as you understand it.
07:35<Pikka>hello drac_boy
07:36<@planetmaker>yes.
07:36<@planetmaker>no.
07:36<@planetmaker>wrong
07:36<@planetmaker>boring
07:36<@planetmaker>be constructive
07:36<Pikka>spuds!
07:36<Pinkbeast>"Speed in mph*1.6" - who on earth wrote that?
07:36<@peter1138>chris sawyer
07:36<@peter1138>i don't know what the AI API call is :p
07:36<Pikka>do you think that's wrong, Pinkbeast?
07:36<Pinkbeast>I doubt Chris Sawyer wrote that wiki page
07:37<@planetmaker>but he used that unit
07:37<drac_boy>pikka just wondering what made you think to add some of these dual-mode locomotives in ukrs2? like the JB diesel for example
07:37<Pinkbeast>Pikka: I can think of a more sensible way of phrasing it, one like "Speed in kph"
07:37<Pikka>but it's not, Pinkbeast
07:37<@planetmaker>Pinkbeast, but it's not
07:37<Pikka>kph is not mph*1.6
07:37<@planetmaker>^^
07:37<Pikka>aliens, drac_boy
07:38<Pinkbeast>It's close enough at OTTD speeds - 100mph is just under 161kph
07:38<Pikka>yes
07:38<Pikka>and if you put 0x160 you'll presumably get 161kph
07:38<Pikka>and people will complain that it's a bug
07:38<@planetmaker>Pinkbeast, it's not close enough
07:38<Pinkbeast>And surely the intent was kph because otherwise who would pick that unit
07:38<Pikka>chris sawyer would
07:38<@planetmaker>people not only will complain. They happily do complain about such difference
07:38<drac_boy>pikka heh why aliens? :-)
07:38<Pikka>because ttd is coded in hex
07:39<@planetmaker>quite heatedly one must say
07:39<Pinkbeast>Nah, I guess I'm wrong here, that is the sensible way to express it, although it's a bit demented (but we can't get away from it)
07:39<Pikka>why not, drac_boy?
07:39<drac_boy>pikka you want know my honest thought on it then? :)
07:40<Pikka>certainly
07:40<@planetmaker>Pinkbeast, it's ugly units, (nearly) all will agree. But that's how TTD did it, thus we're stuck with it, as all newgrfs now rely on this "funny" unit, too
07:40<krinn>planetmaker, found the answer so it's in 1F
07:40<Pinkbeast>planetmaker: yes, I agree; I was wrong.
07:41<drac_boy>ukrs2 would had been much nicer if there was ever an updated version of IS2.5
07:41<@planetmaker>IS 2.5?
07:41<drac_boy>since the mix of electrics and non-electrifications would make these sort of dual-mode locomotives much more useful
07:42<drac_boy>planetmaker, never tried it before? you can look up 'infrastructure sharing' on any ottd wiki
07:43<Pinkbeast>drac: I think it's more than it was non-obvious what "IS" stood for
07:43<Pikka>I thought it was industrial stations
07:43<drac_boy>pikka...eh I always call that one jcindust if going by short name
07:43<CornishPasty>I thought it was Information Services... But that has nothing to do with OpenTTD :P
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07:44<@planetmaker>I rather wondered about the "2.5" ;-)
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07:50<drac_boy>hm anyway pikka do you ever do any more work on nars grf or its pretty much sitting as is?
07:50<Pikka>it needs updating, but not for a while
07:50<drac_boy>I guess the updating would have something to do with the locomotives marked as ! instead of * in your wiki's vehicle list?
07:51<Pikka>unlikely
07:57<xiong>I'm all in favor of redefining the kilometer to be 1.6 miles. Why not? It makes calculation easier. Don't say it's not possible; Apple and Adobe together managed to redefine the printer's point to exactly 1/72 inch.
07:57<drac_boy>heh
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07:58<xiong>It's probably time for me to go to bed, or at least read awhile first. Night all.
07:58*planetmaker is rather in favour to just remove miles everywhere altogether ;-)
07:59<Pikka>yes
07:59<Pikka>everyone knows there's only one sensible unit to measure long distances in
07:59<drac_boy>pikka at least its nice that you left a simple interurban electric coach in nars :)
07:59<@planetmaker>Giga-Angrstoms
08:00<@planetmaker>Giga-Angstroms
08:00<drac_boy>quebec and ontario had quite a number of them on light routes
08:00<Pikka>NM, planetmaker
08:00<Pikka>I left it in, drac_boy?
08:00<drac_boy>well I meant...add .. or whatever :)
08:00<Pikka>one NM = 18.52 kilometers, so it's a nice round number
08:01<@planetmaker>ehm... no
08:01<@planetmaker>factor of ten wrong ;-)
08:01<Pikka>yes
08:01<Pikka>1.852
08:01<Pikka>is what I meant
08:01<Pikka>shush
08:01<Pikka>actually, why are there kno nots in openttd?
08:01<@planetmaker>nah, rather equatorial circumference / 40000
08:02<Pikka>1852 metres
08:02<Pikka>is the official definition
08:02<@planetmaker>:-)
08:02<Pikka>feeture request!
08:02<Pikka>separate display units for different vehicle types
08:03<Pikka>so we can have road vehicles in km/h, trains in mph and ships and aircraft in knots
08:03<Pikka>the way it should be!
08:03<@planetmaker>he. But how do we handle knots for planes? Do we assume any wind? Any given pressure at sea level?
08:03<Pinkbeast>All kinds of units could be like that. "Capacity: 15 passengers in conditions of hideous discomfort" (but you aren't doing the Pacer :-)
08:03<Pikka>it's no different from how we handle km/h and mph
08:03<Pikka>it's ground speed
08:04<@planetmaker>ground speed makes no sense for aircraft
08:04<Pikka>of course it does
08:04<krinn>sound speed :P
08:04<Pikka>if you want to know how fast you're getting from A to B, ground speed is all that makes sense for aircraft
08:04<@planetmaker>engine and plane design can only be designed for indicated (or if you want true) air speed
08:05<Pikka>yes
08:05<Pikka>but TAS = ground speed in openttd
08:05<Pinkbeast>But since there's no wind in OTTD (and planes are not the vehicles that need it most)...
08:06<Pikka>and knots are just a unit of speed, so "how we handle knots for aircraft" is no different from "how we handle km/h for aircraft"...
08:07<@planetmaker>Pinkbeast, ever observed the wind sack or the power plant's smoke?
08:07<@planetmaker>and now you come and tell us there's no wind?
08:07<@planetmaker>:-P
08:07<Pinkbeast>Yeah, but I've also observed sailing ships make the same speed in every direction, which implies... actually, I'm not sure what that implies.
08:07<krinn>never seen my aircraft landing on water when out of fuel :)
08:08<@planetmaker>they simply crash in that case
08:08<@planetmaker>(yes, that *can* happen)
08:08<@peter1138>only if you're silly
08:08<Pikka>what do you mean "if", peter1138?
08:08<@peter1138>:D :D
08:08<krinn>they shouldn't if i put an *Hudson* sign over the river
08:09<@peter1138>hmm, power: 40%
08:09<@peter1138>acceleration smells
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08:09<@peter1138>we have two engine states
08:09<@peter1138>on and off
08:09<@peter1138>and the change is instant
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08:14<CornishPasty>planetmaker: btw, most aircraft above a certain size have IAS and GS indicators
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08:21<Pikka>all aircraft which have a mobile phone in them have a GS indicator
08:21<Pikka>welcome to the 21st century :P
08:28<@planetmaker>:-)
08:31<drac_boy>going for a bit now :s
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08:32<Eddi|zuHause>anyone find it annoying that when you work across symlinks, "ls .." and "cd .." may access different directories?
08:33<TinoDidriksen>No they won't...
08:33<Eddi|zuHause>cd goes across the symlinks that you came from, but ls only works on the actual physical location
08:33<Pikka>a bit of what, I wonder...
08:36<TinoDidriksen>Oh, yes they will. Huh, never noticed. I guess I don't do ls .. ever...
08:39<Eddi|zuHause>need to reorganize my disks... i never have free space on the one that i actually need...
08:40<Pinkbeast>The behaviour of cd depends on the shell
08:45<CornishPasty>Eddi|zuHause: use cd - instead then
08:46<krinn>never notice, and i think he more complain about ls weird behavior than cd
08:46<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause, yes, it's annoying. Know a solution? (I don't)
08:47<Eddi|zuHause>CornishPasty: what does that do?
08:47<krinn>i think Eddi|zuHause expect that -> ls .. == ls `cd -`
08:47<CornishPasty>Eddi|zuHause: returns to the last folder you were in
08:47<Eddi|zuHause>CornishPasty: how does that help?
08:47<@planetmaker>^
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08:48<CornishPasty>Well if you were in the parent directory, then went inside, you can get back :P
08:48<@planetmaker>I usually were not in the parent dir
08:48<CornishPasty>Hm, fair enough
08:48<CornishPasty>I just tend to know where I am on my systems
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08:49<Eddi|zuHause>CornishPasty: cd already works "properly"
08:49<Eddi|zuHause>CornishPasty: it's ls that is "schitzophrenic"
08:49<CornishPasty>Well you were moaning about ls .. and cd .. not working the way you expect...
08:50<CornishPasty>Heh
08:50<Eddi|zuHause>CornishPasty: the "problem" in this case was "ls .." and subsequent "cd ../something" didn't exist, even though it was shown in ls
08:50<krinn>you may solve it with ls `cd .. && pwd`
08:51<Eddi|zuHause>krinn: but that's no generic solution
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08:51<krinn>yep, but i don't know a switch that would do that in ls
08:53<krinn>but you can easy detect a ls .. and hack it in your bashrc to do ls `cd .. && pwd` instead
08:54<Eddi|zuHause>krinn: but that won't work on "ls a/../../b"
08:54<Eddi|zuHause>krinn: or even "ls ../.."
08:55<krinn>yep
08:55<krinn>it won't
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08:56<krinn>you better not use rm like that then :)
08:59<krinn>Eddi|zuHause, i think you should keep the way ls is working, else rm .. usage might do you a pitty
09:00<Pinkbeast>cd is the one that's odd (in some shells).
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09:02<krinn>the bash expansion is as weird as cd
09:09<@peter1138>oh, i made trains go too fast :(
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09:14<krinn>peter1138, gave the trains names then :)
09:23<@Belugas>hello
09:26<@peter1138>:D
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09:50<krinn>never saw that before, but now using a PBS if any train pass the PBS all tracks are reserved until another signal
09:51<krinn>but if you cross a road: the bus/truck is stuck until the train reach the signal <end> and the path isn't reserved: for a long rail track with hills and breakdown, it could be a lot
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09:59<Eddi|zuHause>not quite sure what you're saying
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10:04<krinn>put a rail line
10:04<krinn>add 2 pbs before the stations
10:04<krinn>now cross the rail with a road : as soon as train pass one PBS and upto until it pass the other PBS
10:05<krinn>the road station crossing line signals are red and any truck/bus will wait because a train is coming
10:06<krinn>but for long long distances with hills and breakdown: the time until the train reach that point could be a lot and the truck is stuck until it reach it
10:06<Pikka>put another signal closer to the crossing then
10:07<krinn>if you are kind yes
10:07<krinn>but what if the crossing road isn't yours ?
10:07<Pikka>then don't
10:07<Pinkbeast>There is very little that can be done about the way that if X runs RVs up a road, Y can mess that up by running trains across it.
10:10<krinn>it gave a priority to trains vs road, but as i said, if the train line is real long, the road vehicle could be stuck for quiet a long time for nothing as the train is far from reaching them and distroy them
10:10<Pikka>so how would you change it?
10:11<CornishPasty>MOAR SIGNALS
10:11<krinn>dunno: change road vehicle signal to get red if a train is near and not if the train has reserve the tracks only
10:12<Eddi|zuHause>krinn: but there is no sane "is near" check. that's why the reservation was used in the first place
10:13<Pikka>Eddi|zuHause: I was going to say, while he's working on that, can we have "realistic deceleration" too, that's been on the want list for a long time. :)
10:13<krinn>there's a maybe less safer is near way, but one could be made easy
10:13<Eddi|zuHause>Pikka: michi_cc wanted to do that :)
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10:14<Pikka>since they both involve testing how far a train is from a target, it seems logical to do them both together ;)
10:14<Pinkbeast>There was that first stab at prototypical colour-aspect signalling a while back (and indeed I'd like prototypical semaphore signalling, but I recognise that's a Hard Problenm)
10:14<Eddi|zuHause>Pikka: but i imagine that also would only work on a singnal-to-signal basis
10:15<Eddi|zuHause>Pikka: i.e. "if distance to reservation end < X and extend reservation failed => decelerate"
10:16<Pikka>hmm
10:16<krinn>Eddi|zuHause, a rought check would be when signal is red: check a square retangle of tiles for any train presence : yes, keep red, no set green
10:16<Eddi|zuHause>where "X" is a somewhat crude way to estimate the braking distance
10:16<Eddi|zuHause>and a reservation can only end on a signal or end of line
10:17<Pikka>yes
10:17<Pikka>although at present it doesn't try to extend the reservation until it hits the tile with the signal, does it?
10:17<Eddi|zuHause>yes
10:18<Eddi|zuHause>the tile before the signal, afair
10:18<Pikka>attempted reservation will have to be extended to two blocks :)
10:18<Pikka>which I guess is no bad thing
10:18<Pikka>and will make the signals look more realistic if they're going green a block ahead of the train
10:25<@peter1138>yes
10:25<@peter1138>do it
10:25<@peter1138>i tried but it didn't work
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10:25<Pikka>krinn is going to do it
10:26<@peter1138>cool
10:26<krinn>i won't :)
10:26<@peter1138>of course, openttd's braking force is ... meh
10:26<krinn>i won't touch any openttd code, as i will only put nightmare if i do that
10:26*Pinkbeast ain't persuaded anything can handle the general case of, say, a 300mph maglev approaching a crossing with a 5mph HEQS crawler on it...
10:28<krinn>http://postimage.org/image/to7isfeo7/ just to show it's a bit bad for road vehicle
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10:29<krinn>look at "Vue1" the crossing near molaix hauteurs is red because train has reserve tracks entering the PBS at LeMans Central
10:30<Pikka>we understand the concept, krinn
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10:30<krinn>oh, i have just discover it, never used PBS before
10:32<Eddi|zuHause>Pinkbeast: use a trackset that disables level crossings for high speed rail
10:32<@peter1138>heh
10:32<Pinkbeast>Eddi: yes. I just mean, the OTTD code can't get it right in the general case.
10:33<V453000>or just dont build those crossings? :D
10:33<@peter1138>what's worse, road vehicles waiting, or road vehicles being crashed?
10:33<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: waiting road vehicles being crashed (-> PBS double track)
10:33<@peter1138>:D :D
10:34<Eddi|zuHause>... i have a patch for that :p
10:34<krinn>peter1138, i'm not sure, for a human a crash road vehicle will get his attention, while a waiting road vehicle will not get it until the wait is so long the vehicle isn't making profit
10:34<Pikka>7+(13*3)
10:34<Pikka>39
10:35<Eddi|zuHause>@calc 7+(13*3)
10:35<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: 46
10:35<Pikka>yes
10:35<@peter1138>hmm
10:35<@peter1138>power level 1%
10:35<@peter1138>doesn't take much to keep a train up to speed
10:35<Pikka>46, that's what I said
10:36<Pikka>anyway, in unrelated news, do you know what are tremendously ugly?
10:36<Pikka>track overlay junctions
10:36<@peter1138>sacro?
10:36<Pikka>him too
10:36<Pikka>but I would very much like to be able to optionally provide tile sprites for the overlay junctions
10:37<Pikka>of which there are, possibly, 46 :)
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10:45<Eddi|zuHause>what's wrong with the overlay junctions?
10:46<Pikka>they look hideous. especially when you're using tracks that aren't 18-foot-gauge and so can't have holes in the middle of the track for the other tracks to show through.
10:47<Eddi|zuHause>@calc 18*12*2.54
10:47<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: 548.64
10:47<@peter1138>was there a variable with the trackbits?
10:47<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: there wasn't any variables, because *someone* decided that there should not be any variables
10:47<Pikka>someone(tm)
10:48<@peter1138>that was more about neighbouring tiles
10:49<Eddi|zuHause>there aren't any variables about the same tile either
10:49<@peter1138>none at all?
10:49<Eddi|zuHause>http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/VariationalAction2/Railtypes
10:50<@peter1138>so there are 5 variables
10:50<@peter1138>you just said there wasn't any
10:50<@peter1138>crazy fool
10:50<Eddi|zuHause>none that are useful :)
10:50<Pikka>hyperbolee
10:51<@peter1138>all you need is one variable
10:51<Pikka>yes
10:51<@peter1138>and a lot of empty sprites
10:51<Eddi|zuHause>one variable to rule them all
10:52<@peter1138>(lol, changing vehicle data in GetAcceleration() :p
10:52<@peter1138>)
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13:51<andythenorth>Pikka: the toddler likes choppers
13:51<andythenorth>both kinds
13:51<Pikka>uhoh
13:51<Pinkbeast>Please, what in PJ1K is 9/8 long on the sprite template? The 9F?
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13:52*andythenorth used to see choppers when he was tiny
13:52<Pikka>nothing, Pinkbeast
13:53<Pikka>the largest non-articulated steam locos in NARS are 9/8
13:53<andythenorth>in our first house (lived there until I was 2), I could see choppers go into the mine every day
13:53<Pikka>20s, andythenorth?
13:53<andythenorth>yup
13:53<andythenorth>blue, double headed, 16t minerals
13:53<Pikka>I doubt I've ever seen one
13:54<andythenorth>then in our next house, there was another colliery line ran next to our school
13:54<andythenorth>in fact, nearly every school I attended had a train line within sight
13:55<andythenorth>how odd
13:55<Pinkbeast>Huh, OK. Sorry, I should have tried matching a few up to the template first
13:55<Pikka>there's a lot of them about, andy
13:55<andythenorth>not so much anymore
13:55<Pikka>true
13:56<andythenorth>most of them got ripped up and turned into bike paths after the miners strike ;)
13:56<Pikka>Pinkbeast: in fact, there are no 8/8 steam engines in NARS. the pacifics and 9F are 7/8.
13:56<Pinkbeast>So 1/8 is about 5ft of wheelbase?
13:57<Pikka>the steam engines are drawn longer than the diesels
13:57<Pikka>it's mostly just whatever looks right.
13:57<@planetmaker>Pinkbeast, 1/8 length is 1/16 tile. Where 1 tile is 600km ;-)
13:57<Pinkbeast>I was pondering how to make the Hush-Hush look different to an A4
13:59<Pinkbeast>Easier at the front end, though.
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14:12<Scuddles>pikka doesn't have an unhealthy attraction to dualheaded class 20s
14:13<andythenorth>unhealthy?
14:13<andythenorth>:P
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14:15<Scuddles>apparently
14:16<Pikka>double headed class 20s is like the logical opposite of a bubblecar
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14:18<Scuddles>you should reimplement those 121s soon so I can doublehead them and be ridiculous
14:20<andythenorth>double headed choppers with a mk1 coach in the middle
14:20<Pikka>sounds more like it
14:21<andythenorth>a 121 at each end of 36 mgr hoppers
14:21<andythenorth>^ rubbish idea
14:22<Scuddles>that's genius
14:22<Scuddles>but only downhill unless you like only 2 cars
14:23<Scuddles>also why don't quad class 20s get arranged back to back
14:24<Scuddles>as of now they are mostly forwards except one of them like filthy american loco
14:24<Pikka>for reasons
14:24<Pikka>yse
14:24<Pikka>also http://www.pruplethingz.com/ttd/scrubblecar.png
14:24<Scuddles>it's slated for next release guys
14:24<andythenorth>wtf scrubblecar? :o
14:25<Scuddles>scrubblecar.grf more like
14:25<Pikka>obviously it is a bubblecar A-Train
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14:26<Wolf01>hello
14:32<andythenorth>bah
14:32<andythenorth>editing makefiles is very hard
14:32<andythenorth>[when your editor is set to turn tab into 4 spaces, for python]
14:32<@planetmaker>yeah. you need tabs
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14:46<CIA-1>OpenTTD: translators * r24047 /trunk/src/lang/ (9 files): (log message trimmed)
14:46<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
14:46<CIA-1>OpenTTD: belarusian - 2 changes by KorneySan, Wowanxm
14:46<CIA-1>OpenTTD: czech - 2 changes by Eskymak
14:46<CIA-1>OpenTTD: korean - 1 changes by telk5093
14:46<CIA-1>OpenTTD: latvian - 57 changes by Parastais
14:46<CIA-1>OpenTTD: lithuanian - 23 changes by Stabilitronas
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14:46<drac_boy>hi
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14:56<Scuddles>women shoops
14:57<drac_boy>heh?
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15:09<Scuddles>pikka it's way past your bedtime, go to bed wallyweb
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15:12<drac_boy>don't want sound dumb but how do hp and kN affect locomotives in term of train consists basically?
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15:17<Rhamphoryncus>The practical effect is hp is more relevant to reaching high speed and TE is more relevant to low speeds and heavy loads. How that works I haven't yet figured out
15:17<drac_boy>hmm that helps a bit still thanks Rhamphoryncus
15:17<Sacro>peter1138: :(
15:17<Rhamphoryncus>np
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15:18<drac_boy>so I guess something like say 2000hp 100kN would be a self-powered express coach while something with oh I dunno 1400hp 300kN would do nice on a long wagon string of lumbers :)
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15:19<morph`>Question - how can I install both 1.1.5 and 1.2.0-RC3 on my Debian server?
15:19<andythenorth>drac_boy: http://www.alkrug.vcn.com/rrfacts/hp_te.htm
15:19<morph`>If I try to install RC3, it kinda wants to overwrite the "old" one
15:19<drac_boy>morph` you tried seperate folders?
15:20<morph`>Well, if I use the precompiled one from site, it installs the executable to /usr/games/openttd
15:20<drac_boy>thanks andythenorth
15:20<morph`>Is there a way to "make it go where I want" ?
15:20<drac_boy>morph` I dunno. always had enough trouble with just the source on either windows or linux
15:21<drac_boy>especially when I can't get the two seperate openttd folders to stop wrecking each others' cfg atm -_-
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15:21<morph`>Well, what I did was make like 2 folders
15:21<drac_boy>thanks andythenorth will finish reading the rest of that soon :)
15:21<morph`>What I did was 2 folders - /server1 /server2
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15:22<morph`>Put autopilot+ CFGs in each of them
15:22<morph`>Then just run them seperately
15:22<morph`>Easy like that
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15:25<morph`>I don't get one thing - my temperate server has many people sometimes
15:25<morph`>Tropic server - none
15:25<morph`>Wth?
15:26<drac_boy>morph` hm whats the name of the server you run? just curious
15:26<morph`>mmopenttd #1 and #2
15:26<morph`>Just some usual ones w/o newgrf
15:26<morph`>Newgrf server = 0 joined per 48 hours
15:26<morph`>:(
15:27<drac_boy>hm one sec
15:27<drac_boy>oh had to ask, they up or not atm? :)
15:28<morph`>#1 is, #2 im changing to the winter one
15:28<morph`>what was the name of climate - arctic?
15:28-!-kais58_ is now known as kais58
15:28<drac_boy>morph` hmm well since I can't look I'm curious which grfs the tropical or arctic one is using?
15:28<morph`>None
15:28<rane>is there a hotkey for replying to private message?
15:29<morph`>I couldn't get people to join the ones with newgrfs
15:29<morph`>I left one newgrf as an experiment (opengfx trees)
15:29<morph`>0 joined
15:29<morph`>removed it - 5 joined at start
15:29<morph`>I think automatic download should be added to OpenTTD
15:30<morph`>since many just dont know how to press 2 buttons to add newgrfs or something :(
15:30<drac_boy>morph` I dunno..unless you meant it'll only download as soon as user clicks 'connect' rather than at the lobby screen
15:30<morph`>Yes
15:31<morph`>When you connect to a server with newgrf, you automatically connect the required ones
15:31<morph`>Like maps in various shooters etc.
15:31<morph`>(nice comparison - openttd vs shooters)
15:32<@peter1138>Sacro <3
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15:34<drac_boy>morph` i guess that could be something for you to put up as a debate to the ottd coders then
15:34<morph`>Maybe, I dont really know
15:35<drac_boy>morph` either way tropical with no grfs .. I probably wouldn't had joined ... a bit less if basecost was missing (considering how flat the land can be at times etc)
15:35<drac_boy>just so you know :)
15:35<morph`>Well, yea
15:35<morph`>I like mountains and whatnot, too
15:35<morph`>And basecost where you DO NOT SIMPLY BUILD UNTO WATER
15:38<drac_boy>morph` haha...actually I've known to redo minor shorelines at times seriously tho
15:38<drac_boy>you have to when you're stuck with the sloped mountain on one side and the water on other side and absolutely no flat tiles in the middle
15:38<drac_boy>but then :)
15:38<morph`>I like basecosts on openttdcoop stable
15:38<morph`>Ship - 3k
15:39<morph`>Running cost / year - 300 million
15:39<morph`>So yea, no ships
15:39<drac_boy>morph` for my own games I usually have basecost set toward high plane/airport cost, higher buy but lower runcost for ships, and slight increasement in all train costs. thats more or less it
15:41<drac_boy>morph` btw I like the two servers (afaik) that have better terraforming rule...you only can do 30 tiles per year
15:41<drac_boy>so that way minor adjustment to squeeze track in works under the limit but anyone trying to blow up a hill just because they want their stupid "flat straight tracks" are in for a big slap in the face :)
15:42<morph`>:)
15:43<morph`>Yesterday I had like LLLLRRRR track and like 16 bridges over some pond
15:43<morph`>After a while and few hundred millions, I was like FK it and bulldozored (lol @ this word) all of it
15:43<morph`>BAM -300 million
15:43<morph`>:D
15:43<morph`>Anyways, off to play some TTD
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15:43<drac_boy>morph` the way it goes is...these that really need a few tiles out of way to get workable tracks in don't pay through the nose for it ... but these that have no clue about relastic gets a slap
15:44<drac_boy>oh...sure is a funny one him ... oh well :)
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16:02<CIA-1>OpenTTD: planetmaker * r24048 /trunk/ (readme.txt src/misc_gui.cpp): -Cleanup: Sync credits in readme and ingame information
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16:09<Rhamphoryncus>andythenorth: If I understand that page correctly.. TE = HP/speed, limited by Max TE (weight of the locomotive, etc)?
16:10<andythenorth>dunno
16:10<andythenorth>but Al Krug knows his onions
16:10<Rhamphoryncus>heh
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16:10<Rhamphoryncus>It occurs to me how oblivious I've been to this when playing before
16:11<__ln__>http://www.riemurasia.net/jylppy/media.php?id=93752 (sfw, nsf brain)
16:14<valhallasw>Rhamphoryncus: something like that, yes
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16:14<valhallasw>Rhamphoryncus: essentially: there is a maximum force (TE) (=force = added velocity per unit time) and a maximum power (=added energy per unit time)
16:15<Rhamphoryncus>yeah, I get that
16:15<valhallasw>and because energy scales witn v^2, the acceleration is limited by TE at low speeds and power at high speeds
16:16<valhallasw>so indeed acceleration = min(max TE, HP/speed)
16:16<valhallasw>with some prefactors ;-)
16:16<Rhamphoryncus>Hrm. Are you saying that it's not TE=HP/speed, but rather *required* TE=TE*speed?
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16:17<valhallasw>er.. no
16:18<valhallasw>your statement was correct; I'm just calling it acceleration instead of TE
16:19<Rhamphoryncus>The energy output of the engine is constant though, the HP, so why is it reduced with speed?
16:20<valhallasw>Rhamphoryncus: because the energy required to speed up, say, 1 km/h, increases with the velocity
16:20<Rhamphoryncus>Oh, so it is "required TE"
16:21<valhallasw>I'm not quite sure what you mean with 'required TE'
16:22<Rhamphoryncus>me either :)
16:24<Rhamphoryncus>max TE of 420 kN, that I get. Engine output of 2.5 MJ/s (2.5 MW). Those I get.
16:24<Rhamphoryncus>Resistance increasing with the square of the velocity, that I get.
16:25<valhallasw>this is all without friction
16:25<valhallasw>friction just makes the headache slightly heavier
16:25<Rhamphoryncus>alright
16:26<valhallasw>the maximum acceleration with 420 kN of TE = 420 kN / <mass of train>
16:26<Rhamphoryncus>I can use the formula but I don't understand why the TE drops with velocity
16:26<valhallasw>the maximum acceleration with 2.5MW of power = 2.5MW * <the amount of velocity increase per unit power>
16:27<valhallasw><the amount of velocity increase per unit power> = 1/(<mass> * <velocity>)
16:27<valhallasw>this is because the energy in the moving train E = 0.5*<mass>*<velocity>^2
16:28<Rhamphoryncus>Maybe that's what my brain is choking on
16:28<valhallasw>thus <the energy increase per unit velocity> = <mass>*<velocity> and <the amount of velocity increase per unit power> = 1/(<mass>*<velocity>)
16:30<Rhamphoryncus>If you accelerate by 1 m/s/s for 10 seconds then your velocity is 10 m/s. That's a linear increase in energy, not quadratic
16:30<valhallasw>no
16:31<valhallasw>it's a linear increase in velocity
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16:34<Rhamphoryncus>I'll have to read up more later and straighten out my brain
16:35<valhallasw>good luck
16:35<valhallasw>my headache doesn't help in explaining it, sorry :-)
16:37<Rhamphoryncus>Naw, you helped lots
16:38<Rhamphoryncus>This is basic physics I have screwed up, which is carrying over into locomotives and cars
16:39<CIA-1>OpenTTD: planetmaker * r24049 /branches/1.2/ (readme.txt src/misc_gui.cpp):
16:39<CIA-1>OpenTTD: [1.2] -Doc: Add credits for title game
16:39<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Cleanup: Sync credits between readme and ingame information (r24048)
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16:52<Ammler>Rubidium: (or someone else), could you help me here: https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=752669
16:53<Ammler>it is about timidity
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16:56<Ammler>wha is useful on the building for openttd?
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17:02<@planetmaker>Ammler: it's useful to build a sound driver into OpenTTD, not?
17:02<frosch123>iirc ottd can use both libtimidity and the external timidity thingie
17:02<rane>is there a hotkey for replying to a private message?
17:03<@planetmaker>maybe we should re-consider the fluidsnyth patch :-)
17:04<Ammler>frosch123: the guy on the ticket just said, it didn't work
17:04<krinn>Ammler, from what i see in my ebuild: openttd need aplaymidi, and alsa-utils can provide it, but timidity also, timidity will also add ability to make an external midi device playing the tunes
17:04<Ammler>if it would work, it would make much sense to build midi player in
17:06<Ammler>planetmaker: afaik, I asked about this 1? week ago, the answer was that timidity coul also be sued as sound driver
17:07<Ammler>or see my comment I just made
17:07<Ammler>#5
17:08<krinn>http://gpo.zugaina.org/AJAX/Ebuild/2498633/View look at comment in the ebuild, it answer your question imo
17:10<Ammler>krinn: your comment does not say, why or why not
17:10<Ammler>I know, openttd works without
17:11<Ammler>anyway, wouldn't it make sense to build the player in, so a external midi player is not needed?
17:11<krinn>and then someone with external devices couldn't use them ?
17:12<@planetmaker>Ammler: openttd works without sound. sure
17:12<Ammler>another issue is also the missing fonts
17:12<@planetmaker>but you obviously want sound. Thus you should compile it with at least some sound support...
17:12-!-xiong [~xiong@76-218-102-28.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out]
17:12<Ammler>planetmaker: don't confuse sound and midi
17:13<Ammler>you don' need timidty for sound
17:13<krinn>but you need it for music
17:13-!-lmergen [~lmergen@5352EA70.cm-6-3d.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
17:13<Ammler>but not in openttd
17:14<krinn>how u do, last time i try i didn't get the music
17:14<Ammler>planetmaker: or maybe with it, you are able to control volume?
17:15<@planetmaker>I think not
17:15*planetmaker tests
17:15<Ammler>krinn: music works fine just havin timidty installed
17:16<Ammler>I also wonder, how it works on windows
17:17<rane>where's the issue tracker for feature requests?
17:18<Ammler>bugs.openttd.org
17:18<Ammler>or tt-forums suggestions
17:19<@planetmaker>Ammler: sound and music volume control work for me
17:19<frosch123>midi only work for windows when using a deprecated sdk, or so .)
17:19<@planetmaker>though the sound volume is... not ideal
17:19<@planetmaker>ideal to control
17:20<krinn>sound volume works great, music volume doesn't work for me
17:20<@planetmaker>he :-)
17:20<Ammler>krinn: did you build openttd with timidity?=
17:20<@planetmaker>so different sound drivers handle that obviously differently
17:20*planetmaker used CoreAudio framework
17:20<krinn>yes Ammler
17:21<Ammler>ok, then I don't needto test that
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17:21<krinn>USE="iconv lzo openmedia png timidity truetype -aplaymidi -debug -dedicated -icu -zlib"
17:22<Ammler>krinn: tat is not what I mat
17:22<Ammler>meant*
17:22<Ammler>sorry, my keyboard is broken :-P
17:22<krinn>:p
17:22<Ammler>krinn: did you build openttd with timididy(-devel)
17:23<Sacro>grr
17:23<Sacro>why deos it try to write to /usr/locall/share/pixmaps on make install
17:23<Ammler>Sacro: you can configure that
17:23<Sacro>Wtf
17:24<Sacro>why do half the people on the AUR symlink audio files ><
17:24<krinn>the configure flags are : --without-allegro --without-libtimidity
17:24<@planetmaker>--without-allegro?
17:24<Ammler>krinn: so your answer should have been no
17:25<krinn>Ammler, yep, it's a trick: always build with it off, then add timidity as dependency if you enable the use flag
17:25<krinn># there is an allegro interface available as well as sdl, but
17:25<krinn> # the configure for it looks broken so the sdl interface is
17:25<krinn> # always built instead.
17:25<krinn> local myopts="${myopts} --without-allegro"
17:25<rane>Ammler: ty, made a task
17:26<krinn>planetmaker, as you see, this one always set too --without-allegro
17:26<Ammler>krinn: we do not ask you what your configure script says, we wonder why
17:26<Rhamphoryncus>Okay, useful numbers: To accelerate from dead stop on a slop has an upper limit of 9 tonnes/grade/kN. By 9.5 tonnes/grade/kN you get nowhere, but even at 9 it's very slow. 5 or 6 is a much better value. HP has no effect at these speeds.
17:32<frosch123>Ammler: in gentoo everything is "-devel"
17:32<frosch123>gentoo has no non-"-devel" packages
17:32<Rhamphoryncus>So take your 2-2-0 planet, it has 12 kN. 12*9/1% = 108 tonnes max.
17:33<Ammler>frosch123: read again :-P
17:33<Ammler>he compiles with --without-timidity
17:34<frosch123>yes, without the libtimidity
17:34<Ammler>and I get the USE="timidity" to install it like require
17:34<frosch123>i cannot say for sure, but iirc the external player is recomended
17:34<frosch123>while libtimidity had issues
17:35<Ammler>well, the author of the ticket wrote tha openttd buids with it, but h go no musi
17:36<valhallasw>Rhamphoryncus: the HP gives you the max speed on the incline (or rather: the asymptotic limit, as you might already have a speed that's higher than that speed)
17:36<Rhamphoryncus>valhallasw: yes
17:36<krinn>well, even with alsa+timidity you won't get any music until you setup alsa correctly
17:37<krinn>i suppose your user build timidity and openttd but didn't setup alsa midi
17:37<Rhamphoryncus>valhallasw: but it's worth repeating that's not a small effect at low speeds. It's *no* effect at low speeds.
17:37<krinn>env | grep ALSA
17:37<krinn>ALSA_OUTPUT_PORTS=128
17:37<krinn> here to make the music works
17:38<Rhamphoryncus>Hum, my 2-2-0 didn't want to go with 102 tonnes. 91 tonnes worked though.
17:38<krinn>from aplaymidi -l
17:38<krinn> Port Client name Port name
17:38<krinn>128:0 TiMidity TiMidity port 0
17:38<Ammler>krinn: with timidity installed, there is no issue
17:38<Ammler>but it would be nice to have it working without timidity
17:38<valhallasw>Rhamphoryncus: well, sort of. if the HP is low enough, that's of course not the case ;-)
17:38<krinn>with it install there's issue still, if alsa doesn't output to the right port
17:39<Rhamphoryncus>Of course :)
17:39<Ammler>I meant, we have no issue with it
17:39<Ammler>our issue is that timidity is needed
17:39<valhallasw>but with typical numbers, you're completely right
17:40<Rhamphoryncus>But there's a transition point and a low enough HP makes the transition very early. A low enough TE makes the transition very late
17:40<valhallasw>yep
17:40<Ammler>I can't imagine how it could work without, in that case you would also need the fonts in the openttd build
17:41<krinn>if i trust the ebuild, only aplaymidi is need, timidity provide it, but alsa-utils too
17:41<+michi_cc>TE as used by OpenTTD is simply the amount of force that can be transmitted from wheels to the rails.
17:42<Ammler>krinn: stop thinking how gentoo does it and try to explain how openttd should work :-P
17:42<krinn>Ammler, that would be guess, i won't try to explain how openttd work to someone like you no :)
17:43<Ammler>afaik, you should not trust the gentoo packager according to openttd
17:43<krinn>well, i trust what works, and it works, but i admit i didn't tests all ebuild cases, in my config, at least it works
17:44-!-torkil [~torkil@c550FBF51.dhcp.bluecom.no] has joined #openttd
17:44<Ammler>hmm, didn' you just say, you can't control volume?
17:44<krinn>yep i can't control the music volume
17:44<Ammler>but it works :-P
17:44<krinn>you may consider that an issue, that's not one for me
17:44<krinn>:P
17:45<Rhamphoryncus>Hum. On the old little steam engines the threshold is more like 8 tonnes/grade/kN
17:48-!-ccfreak2k [~ccfreak2k@haqua.4chan.fm] has joined #openttd
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17:52<Sacro>Why does "!fish" not work :(
17:54<andythenorth>what should it do? :P
17:56<@planetmaker><planetmaker> !fish
17:56<@planetmaker><PublicServer> planetmaker: Today's fish is smoked eel on toast with horseradish cream.
17:56<@planetmaker>or something like that ;-)
18:01-!-jazzyjaffa [~jazzyjaff@94-193-52-238.zone7.bethere.co.uk] has joined #openttd
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18:05<Wolf01>'night
18:05-!-Wolf01 [~wolf01@host242-239-dynamic.16-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.]
18:10-!-Zuu [~Zuu@h-114-141.a98.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #openttd
18:10<Sacro>Grr, I can't get my GRF files right
18:11<Zuu>Hmm, so you got a Grrr File? ;-)
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18:13<Sacro>perhaps
18:13<Sacro>ignoring invalid NewGRF 'vast_station_tiles-0.2.0\vast.grf': not found
18:13<Sacro>etc
18:14<Sacro>they are in /usr/share/openttd-chillpp/data/content_download/data
18:14-!-xiong [~xiong@76-218-102-28.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #openttd
18:15<Sacro>should that not be right?
18:18<Sacro>trying to fix this via strace isn't easy :(
18:19-!-TWerkhoven [~twerkhove@cpc3-linl7-2-0-cust522.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: He who can look into the future, has a brighter future to look into]
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18:19<Rhamphoryncus>Sacro: why is it \vast.grf rather than /vast..grf?
18:20<Sacro>er
18:20<Sacro>because I got the config from windows :P
18:21<Rhamphoryncus>:)
18:21<Sacro>FUUUUUUUUUUU
18:21<Sacro>><
18:22<Rhamphoryncus>I bet / would work on windows too. Works most of the time.
18:22<Sacro>Yeah
18:23<xiong>Anybody know how to get hold of swissfan91?
18:23<Sacro>take hand
18:24<Sacro>place around him
18:24<Sacro>close hand
18:24<xiong>No joke. We were supposed to work together Sunday afternoon but I had connectivity issues. Still do, for that matter.
18:24<__ln__>although if the fan is spinning, you might hurt your hand
18:25<Sacro>__ln__: true
18:25<Sacro>now why are you missing some
18:26<Sacro>arrg]
18:26<Sacro>Dear WinSCP, when I click "Cancel" don't give me the question "Cancel current operation" and the button "Cancel"
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18:30<@Yexo>xiong: haven't seen him that much in here (at least not that I remember), more on the forums
18:30<@Yexo>so try a pm there
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18:38<Sacro>How do I get autopilot to load a game
18:38<CIA-1>OpenTTD: frosch * r24050 /trunk/src/newgrf.cpp: -Fix: Realsprites inside the action 11 block were not skipped correctly.
18:40<Ammler>Sacro: !rcon load game.sav
18:40<Sacro>Ah yes
18:40<Sacro>I think it hated the sapced
18:40<Sacro>*spaces
18:40<Ammler>hmm, try with quotes
18:40<Sacro>Nah, renamed it
18:41<Ammler>Sacro: you can also use the number
18:42<Ammler>!rcon ls
18:42-!-Ammler was kicked from #openttd by DorpsGek [Wrong channel. Retry in #openttdcoop.]
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18:42<Ammler>glx: !rcon is not a command someone should try in #openttdcoop :-P
18:43<V453000>I accidentally did just today :D
18:43<+glx>it doesn't work here anyway
18:45<Ammler>well, my !rcon here was no mistake
18:45<Rhamphoryncus>valhallasw: So, using my newfound knowledge, I'm looking at the trains and.. there's only a 10% or 20% increase in TE for a freight locomotive vs a pax one, with at least that much loss in HP and often a huge loss in max speed. What gives?
18:46<Rhamphoryncus>The running cost is often lower, which in the real world is great, but in openttd the payment different trumps that (nevermind the throughput)
18:47<+michi_cc>Rhamphoryncus: What kind of trains did you look at? Real world trains, maybe modern ones?
18:47<Rhamphoryncus>ukrs2 in this case. It's the same experience I had with NARS but I don't know the numbers there
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18:48<valhallasw>Rhamphoryncus: 10 to 20% increase in TE means you can haul 10-20% heavier trains up a hill
18:48<valhallasw>but I have to agree it's not that much
18:49<valhallasw>Rhamphoryncus: but also IRL electric locos are often used for both passenger and freight trains
18:50<Rhamphoryncus>Heavier from a dead stop. If your entire route is uphill both ways then maybe. In practice it's not, so you'll get more high speed on the flat with the pax locomotive AND it'll have enough momentum to be faster on the hill anyway
18:51<Rhamphoryncus>The only place it matters is if you get stopped, and I've never been able to understand the hard limit there before this conversation
18:51-!-th_gergo [~thiering@2E6B2A8B.catv.pool.telekom.hu] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
18:51<+michi_cc>It's different for older engines, but basically almost all modern engines with variable-frequency electric motors (which includes e.g. diesel-electrics) TE is only limited by the friction coefficient for steel on steel and weight on axles. The motor itself can basically do whatever TE you want.
18:51<valhallasw>Rhamphoryncus: it also matters if you're not stopped, as you will slow down
18:52<Rhamphoryncus>The pax still ends up faster because it started at a higher speed
18:52-!-drac_boy [~drac_boy@bas1-ottawa08-1176111901.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #openttd
18:52<drac_boy>hi
18:52<valhallasw>if there are no red signals: yes
18:52<CIA-1>OpenTTD: frosch * r24051 /trunk/src/newgrf.cpp: -Fix: Comment.
18:53<+michi_cc>This is the explanation why e.g. most modern German electric engines all have a TE of ~300 kN, because that is the friction maximum for a four-axle engine with German max axle weights.
18:53<drac_boy>hi again valhallasw :)
18:53<Rhamphoryncus>michi_cc: yeah, I saw that
18:54<Rhamphoryncus>Steam engines are more complicated but does openttd bother?
18:55<+michi_cc>TE of real-world steam engines OTOH is mostly determined by boiler pressure and cylinder diameter, which both can't be increased infinitely, so even a special freight engine can only have so much more TE.
18:55<CIA-1>OpenTTD: frosch * r24052 /trunk/src/ (newgrf.cpp newgrf_sound.cpp newgrf_sound.h sound.cpp): -Fix (r23883) [FS#5107]: Imported GRF sounds were inserted into the wrong slots.
18:55<valhallasw>so.. that's typically ~3.5kN/metric tonne loco weight
18:56<Rhamphoryncus>Weight on the drive wheels being a limiter too, especially with debris on the track
18:56<drac_boy>michi_cc isn't it also re axles too?
18:57<drac_boy>like I mean 4 low-sized axles might have something over 2 or 3 high-wheeling when it comes to nonsensitive freights
18:59<Rhamphoryncus>drac_boy: the rails are limited in the weight they can handle (both for immediate failure and long-term wear), which is why a 6 axle diesel has more TE than a 4 axle. It's allowed 50% more weight
18:59-!-JVassie [~James@2.27.104.165] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
18:59<drac_boy>Rhamphoryncus I was talking about steam locomotives and axles in general but :)
19:00<+michi_cc>More axles means more possible friction weight, so yes, it can help.
19:00<Rhamphoryncus>The same applies to steam. Spread out your weight on your drive wheels
19:01<drac_boy>michi_cc and I'm sure that 32 inch can start at low speed a bit better than 62 inch too
19:01<valhallasw>drac_boy: that doesn't matter at all. the contact area is determined by elasticity (yielding), not by the shape of the weels
19:02<drac_boy>valhallasw haven't you thought about the pistons? surely it'll work better at higher velocity...to a limit
19:02<+michi_cc>Irrelevant for OpenTTD though, as modeling real steam engine behaviour would require variable power and TE, and OTTD supports neither.
19:02<drac_boy>yeah
19:03<valhallasw>drac_boy: ah, right. yes, then smaller wheels are better because it's a smaller force to deliver
19:03<valhallasw>you're right
19:03<valhallasw>er
19:03<drac_boy>valhallasw heh you didn't mean 'smaller' I'm sure :)
19:04<+michi_cc>High piston velocity is not good actually, because time for proper steam exchange in the piston chambers gets too short. One of the reasons high-speed engines had to have those big wheels.
19:04<valhallasw>but it's good for slow speeds, I'd say
19:04<valhallasw>except that I just realised it doesn't matter
19:05<drac_boy>michi_cc true..i was just talking about seeing the piston barely move an inch due to trying to shove at large wheels at low speed ... verus smaller wheels being .. hmm well I dunno how to really finish explaining that
19:05<valhallasw>because the relevant number is ((the distance between axle and piston attachment)/(axle radius)) squared
19:05<valhallasw>so as long as you connect the piston as far outside as you can, small and large wheels ask for the same forces
19:05<drac_boy>and michi_cc yeah .. aside to large wheels don't forget the valve system ... I always did wonder how the poppet would had worked out had steam not be killed off so early as it was in north america tho
19:06<drac_boy>these poor T1 and Q2's being scrapped after a short life :-/
19:08-!-Moopf [4e2b8064@ircip3.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd
19:08<Moopf>hi
19:08<drac_boy>michi_cc one of the other thing I always thought that seem difficult to emulate into TE was the 3 and 4 piston locomotives of various configuration
19:08<Moopf>is there any site, to get custom compiled ottd versions?
19:08<drac_boy>especially when in some cases the 3-piston one had higher tractive at starting and smoother curve than with an alike 2-piston version
19:09<Moopf>i need a version for multiplayer with "time until restart" Message
19:09<drac_boy>or how about we go into mallet (aka compound) verus simple articulated locomotives :p
19:10<@Terkhen>good night
19:11-!-frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590f4884.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
19:12<drac_boy>bye Terkhen
19:13<drac_boy>anyway valhallasw what you doing by now?
19:17<@peter1138>http://imgur.com/a/K1btZ
19:19<Moopf>Anyone knows how to compile ottd in MVS10
19:20<Moopf>always getting: "table/strings.h": No such file or directory
19:20-!-KritiK [~Maxim@95-25-40-69.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
19:21<valhallasw>drac_boy: hm?
19:25-!-torkil [~torkil@c550FBF51.dhcp.bluecom.no] has quit [Quit: Leaving...]
19:26<drac_boy>just asking thats all :)
19:26<valhallasw>I'm not quite sure what the 'by now' context is ;-)
19:27<drac_boy>heh ... now? :P
19:27<valhallasw>as in: the last five minutes, the last year, the last five :P
19:27<drac_boy>valhallasw have you ever seen the silly parody movie Spaceballs? there's one scene pretty much exactly just like this now :p
19:27<valhallasw>nope.
19:27<valhallasw>in any case, I was on wikipedia browsing random french rolling stock :p
19:28<drac_boy>http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Spaceballs do a find for "when does this happen in the movie"
19:29<drac_boy>and you can see the major confusions there :)
19:30<drac_boy>why french wagons? you not too interested in sncf are you?
19:30<jazzyjaffa>Does the git repo at http://git.openttd.org/openttd/trunk auto-update after an svn commit? Or is there a lag? I just did a pull and it seems behind.
19:31<valhallasw>drac_boy: because.... wikipedia
19:31<valhallasw>you start somewhere and end up somewhere completely else
19:32<Moopf>noone here ever compiled ottd on a windows system?
19:32-!-MNIM [~mBuntu@ip5452ffad.adsl-surfen.hetnet.nl] has joined #openttd
19:32<drac_boy>valhallasw heh ok, well if you ever want to go check out the Nohab :-)
19:32<drac_boy>its a classical diesel locomotive, with at least one GM one in preservation too
19:32<valhallasw>NOHAB (Nydqvist & Holm AB) was a manufacturing company based in the city of Trollhättan, Sweden.?
19:33<valhallasw>so, er, which one? :P
19:34<krinn>Moopf, q1: no idea q2: no never
19:34<Moopf>hm
19:35<valhallasw>Moopf: check the repository for that folder/file
19:35<+michi_cc>Moopf: You need to compile the whole solution, not just the openttd project.
19:35<Moopf>is it true, that you have to compile addons into your ottd?
19:35<valhallasw>or, you know, google for the error you get
19:35<valhallasw>https://www.google.com/search?q=%22table%2Fstrings.h%22%3A+No+such+file+or+directory
19:35<drac_boy>valhallasw hmm odd.. only thing I know is that its gm-nohab .. might have to find the preservation's website to check again
19:36<valhallasw>as glx states there (and what michi_cc states above): "rev.cpp is generated by "version" project and table\strings.h is generated by "langs" project. But they should be compiled in the correct order automatically unless you explicitely asked for "openttd" project only."
19:36<drac_boy>valhallasw well if you want something else now...I'll just point you to Bullet 0 Series? :-) heh
19:37<+michi_cc>And only if the Windows Scripting Host is installed, but I don't know if it is even possible to have it not installed for XP/Vista/7.
19:38<Moopf>i own visual studio c++ 2010
19:39<valhallasw>drac_boy: meh :p
19:39<drac_boy>valhallasw :-p
19:43-!-lofejndif [~lsqavnbok@raskin.torservers.net] has joined #openttd
19:45<drac_boy>valhallasw either way I'm often interested in smaller trains....usually anything to do with 2ft to metre gauge .. although some little standard/broad gauge things are in too
19:51<+glx>Moopf: always open the solution
19:52<+glx>not only the project file
20:00<Rubidium>Ammler: libtimidity support was added for some exotic system that doesn't support timidity. I have no clue whether it works, but if it doesn't... good luck fixing it as I can't install it
20:01<Rubidium>also gentoo uses aplaymidi or so
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21:27<moopf>hi
21:28<moopf>where can i get source code for server plugins like goals etc?
21:29-!-KouDy [~KouDy@115.133.5.159] has joined #openttd
21:30<moopf>where can i get source code for server plugins like goals etc?
21:31-!-moopf [4e2b8064@ircip3.mibbit.com] has quit []
21:32*drac_boy thinks someone lacks a bit of sense
21:34-!-Moopf [4e2b8064@ircip1.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd
21:35<Moopf>anyone here knows how to run a customized server?
21:36<Eddi|zuHause>in 1.2.0 you can write a GameScript to provide goals and stuff
21:39<Moopf>is it already released?
21:39<Moopf>i only have 1.1.5
21:40<Eddi|zuHause>no, if you read the topic then you'd see 1.2.0 is currently at RC3
21:40-!-telanus [~Barney_Er@196-210-244-115.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #openttd
21:40<Eddi|zuHause>means you've got around 2 weeks to assemble your script so you have it ready for release :)
21:40<Moopf>:P
21:45<Moopf>oh no, it is killing me to wait 14 looong days :)
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23:32<Elukka>you can always play the release candidate or a nightly
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---Logclosed Tue Mar 20 00:00:00 2012