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#openttd IRC Logs for 2012-03-24

---Logopened Sat Mar 24 00:00:09 2012
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03:59<@Terkhen>good morning
04:03<Rubidium>good aftermidmorning ;)
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07:25<frosch123>haha, i don't know what distinguishes dbset 0.4 from later releases. but that someone prefers a ancient newgrf over less ancient grfs is interesting :)
07:25<frosch123>( )
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07:28<Rubidium>frosch123: I know someone who'd prefer anything Russian over anything "western" hardware wise
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08:55<Pikka>oh dear
08:56<frosch123>pretty cheap
08:56<Pikka>pretty high capacity
08:57<Pikka>about 200 billion times the population of the earth...
08:57<Pikka>don't set it to full load, you'll be waiting a while :)
08:58<@Terkhen>we should ditch earth and get us one of those
08:58<Hirundo>Noah's Ark 2.0 ?
09:00<telanus>:-D, that's mighty huge
09:00<frosch123>Pikka: is there already a aircraft grf downloadable, which uses range?
09:01<Pikka>not as far as I know, frosch, except the test grf attached
09:01<frosch123>oh, silly me :p
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09:31<Zuu>Great to see that you are working on including max ranges in av8.
09:32<Pikka>and found two bugs so far, Zuu :)
09:33<Zuu>Only when actually using an API/feature you'll find out and fix some bugs.
09:34<Pikka>although obviously the pain is working out if it's a bug in the feature or in your own code
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10:05<@planetmaker>that's a pretty large capacity, Pikka ;-)
10:05<@planetmaker>full load might take some time :-P
10:06<Pikka>didn't I already say that? :}
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10:06<Pikka>I also like the way you can freeze aircraft in mid-air, that's a fun thing to do
10:09<@planetmaker>yes, you probably did
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10:15<SpComb>what happens if a plane runs out of range?
10:16<Pikka>it will stop on the ground at the previous airport in the order
10:16<Pikka>if forced by order-skipping to fly to an airport out of range, nothing.
10:16<SpComb>if you skip orders in mid-flight?
10:17<SpComb>next someone writes an av8 order-skipping AI
10:17<Pikka>and if you skip orders while the plane is still climbing from the runway, it freezes in mid-air. :)
10:18<SpComb>that sounds like a good feature indeed
10:20<SpComb>but I could see people being crazy enough to order-skip optimize their planes in multiplayer
10:21<Pikka>if you're willing to babysit every plane, yes
10:21<SpComb>people did it with trains, I gather
10:22<SpComb>sell off the train at the destination, re-buy it at the source
10:37<frosch123>i know an ai which does that, but people? :o
10:40<@Alberth>does testing count? :p
10:43<Arafangion>Accountants probably do.
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11:17<Eddi|zuHause>[23.03.2012 19:38] <Nat_aS> I think there are more examples of train companies that fund industries than there are of train companies that are also airlines. <-- actually, the german airline "Lufthansa" did run a train line, and there's a standing agreement that airplane tickets are valid on DB trains on the same route
11:19<@Alberth>hi Eddi|zuHause, running the 3.3 kernel already? Fedora has a 3.3 rpm :)
11:21<CIA-1>OpenTTD: frosch * r24058 /trunk/src/ (43 files in 3 dirs): -Fix [FS#5124]: Wrong numbering of string parameters.
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11:23<Pikka>thanks frosch :)
11:23<frosch123>thanks as well :)
11:23<@Alberth>now you have to find new bugs :p
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11:46<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: already downloaded the proper rpms, didn't get to install them yet
11:47<Eddi|zuHause><frosch123> haha, i don't know what distinguishes dbset 0.4 from later releases. but that someone prefers a ancient newgrf over less ancient grfs is interesting :) <-- i wouldn't even know where to get such an ancient version. i have only ever seen 0.5 and 0.82 downloads
11:48<Eddi|zuHause>0.5 is offered as "the last version for 'stable' TTDPatch"
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12:22<Nat_aS>Eddi|zuHause, yes, but most oil companies operate there own tanker lines.
12:23<Eddi|zuHause>i don't think that it's very common that ship owners coincide with cargo owners
12:24<Nat_aS>Except for oil companies.
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12:26<Eddi|zuHause>oil companies are very well known for their vertical monopolies ;)
12:26<Nat_aS>yeah, I just think it's silly that horizontal minopolies are encouraged in this game but vertical ones aren't.
12:27<Nat_aS>it might even be an interesting mechanic if the regional inspector could start to complain if you fund too many industries,
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12:28<Nat_aS>this is in response to Andy's "IT'S NOT TRANSPORTATION" Argument.
12:33<Eddi|zuHause>it's not really about "it's not transportation", it's more about "it needs a proper economy model"
12:34<Eddi|zuHause>and no current developer wants to invest time in that
12:34<Nat_aS>although the way you can already buy stock and take ovet other transport companies gives precident for it
12:34<Nat_aS>just allow the same option for factories
12:34<Eddi|zuHause>the last one was Celestar, and that was like 5 years ago
12:34<Nat_aS>there stock price could be based on whether they are delivering or receiving cargo.
12:35<Nat_aS>a more detailed economy could also make lategame less godmode.
12:35<Eddi|zuHause>it's universally agreed that the current stock market concept is flawed and needs to be replaced
12:35<@Alberth>Nat_aS: there are a zillion proposals like that
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12:36<@Alberth>listing another one is very useless, not in the last place because nobody reads an IRC log to find a new economic model
12:36<Nat_aS>i mean the history of railways is full of horrible corruption and monopolies.
12:37<@Alberth>if you mean business, start a patch. Economic models need a LOT of balancing, basically you have to start from scratch, so it will take a long time to get the patch right
12:38<Nat_aS>not a coder
12:39<Nat_aS>but it should probably be exploitable, and balanced by the regional inspector trying to shoot you down at every turn.
12:39<@Alberth>so what, I am not a graphic artist, yet I play with blender
12:39<@Alberth>and I am getting better at it :p
12:41<Nat_aS>art is easier to get into than coding.
12:41<Nat_aS>well 3d art might be as hard.
12:42<Pikka>I've never even worked out how to make a box in blender
12:43<Pikka>it seems to have the most non-standard and illogical user interface of any program I've ever used.
12:43<Nat_aS>oh I got that far
12:43<Nat_aS>there is actualy a comand to make, exactly that
12:43<Nat_aS>making more complex shapes is harder though.
12:43<Nat_aS>and yes the UI is, in a word, illogical.
12:46<Nat_aS>but that seems to be a problem with a lot of free software, it made sense to the person who coded it. and nobody paid him to make one that would make sense to others.
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13:07<@Alberth>the UI is geared towards professional users, which means you have a steep learning curve
13:08<valhallasw>Alberth: a professional UI can still be intuitive or not
13:08<Nat_aS>I am not implying it can't be.
13:09<valhallasw>s/professional UI/UI for professionals
13:09<Pikka>Alberth: I'm not unexperienced in 3d graphics, and there are some fairly standard conventions across most programs
13:09<@Alberth>valhallasw: it probably is, to them. but a newbie does other things than a professional
13:09<Pikka>blender is like a word processor where the authors have decided that all the keys will produce a different letter from usual
13:09<Nat_aS>but in the free software market(Ha market for free things) UI for something even as simple as say a video player can be a mess of buttons
13:10<Nat_aS>a good example of pro softwhere that makes no sense however would be the new MS word
13:10<Nat_aS>all the MS programs have a fucked up interface now.
13:10<valhallasw>Nat_aS: are you talking about the 2007 change or the upcoming one?
13:10<Nat_aS>and the free alternatives... well they all look like what there MS equivlent looked like pre 2007
13:10<Nat_aS>the 2007 change
13:10<valhallasw>because the office 2007 change is backed by a lot of UI research
13:10<Nat_aS>what does the new one look like?
13:11<Nat_aS>you mean some people managed to rip MS off?
13:11<valhallasw>no, I mean you're wrong
13:11<valhallasw>the research proves the interface makes sense to the target audience
13:11<@Alberth>valhallasw: 'research' doesn't mean anything
13:12<@Alberth>you can buy any research result you want
13:12<Nat_aS>the target audience of MS softwhere is everyone and there cousin.
13:12<Nat_aS>and lots of people dislike the change
13:12<Nat_aS>hence the research is worthless.
13:12<valhallasw>'I dislike the result, so the research is useless'
13:12<@Alberth>one unified UI for all is doomed to fail no matter what
13:13<@Alberth>valhallasw: I never even used the program
13:13<valhallasw>I was referring to Nat_aS' comment
13:13<valhallasw>I agree with you that 'one UI for all' will never be good for every user
13:13<@Alberth>s/every/any/ :)
13:14<valhallasw>but you comment about research is just nonsense
13:14<Nat_aS>oh, apparently office 2007 was designed for touch screens
13:14<Nat_aS>that makes sense now
13:14<valhallasw>it's not that you hire someone to tell you you're doing the right thing
13:14<valhallasw>you're trying to find out what 'the right thing' is by measuring stuff
13:15<@Alberth>valhallasw: there is a positive correlation between a research question, the answer, and the answer that a client would like to have
13:16<Nat_aS>throwing money at researchers is not the end all. Yes it is important, but just because the people you paid tell you what you want to hear, does not mean it's right
13:16<Nat_aS>no matter how much you pay them.
13:16<valhallasw>jesus christ
13:16<valhallasw>did you guys even read what I wrote?
13:16<Nat_aS>Even global superpower nations make this mistake.
13:16<valhallasw>18:14 < valhallasw> it's not that you hire someone to tell you you're doing the right thing
13:16<valhallasw>18:14 < valhallasw> you're trying to find out what 'the right thing' is by measuring stuff
13:17<Nat_aS>yes, and measuing stuff told us that new coke was a good idea.
13:18<Nat_aS>I will admit however, that people complain about change no matter what, esp if it's cosmetic change
13:18<Nat_aS>because that's the most noticeable
13:20<Nat_aS>and free software is not immune, look at ubuntu's new unity desktop
13:20<valhallasw>Nat_aS: of course, there is a difference in marketing research ('what do people like') and UI research ('what allows people to do things efficiently')
13:21<Nat_aS>well only one of them will increase sales and make the customer happy.
13:21<valhallasw>I don't know if MS did marketing research on the new UI, and/or how they interpreted changes
13:21<valhallasw>er, negative reponses
13:21<valhallasw>No. Because the end-user is generally not the one buying the software.
13:21<Chris_Booth>guess what
13:21<Nat_aS>good point
13:21<valhallasw>Especially in the case of Office
13:22<Nat_aS>that is a very good point
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14:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: translators * r24059 /trunk/src/lang/latvian.txt:
14:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
14:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: latvian - 36 changes by Parastais
14:48<Nat_aS>speaking of UIs, does OTTD need an update to it's menus?
14:48<Nat_aS>like the depot menu was not designed for trainsets like the 2cc set
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15:01<Nat_aS>thank you
15:06<rane>__ln__: ... lol
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15:38<drac_boy>hi Alberth how doing?
15:43<@Alberth>bored :)
15:44<@Alberth>wrote code all day, but not enough to get it running
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15:47<drac_boy>what kind of code?
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15:52<@Alberth>c++ code: guests in parks, and aircraft going from X to Y :)
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15:53<drac_boy>heh ok
15:53<drac_boy>sounds like fun anyhow
15:54<Nat_aS>is there any way to place specific buildings in the scenerio editor?
15:54<@Alberth>oh, and I tried drawing some lines with agg, but it's complicated :p
15:54<Nat_aS>I've seen some scenerios with cities that look really handmade.
15:54<@Alberth>Nat_aS: the only way I know is by building random, and if it's the wrong house, remove it again
15:55<Nat_aS>then whoever made this scerio is insane.
15:55<@Alberth>not something I'd want to do
15:56<Nat_aS>look up the scenario called Cindini
15:56<frosch123>yes, they are insane
15:57<zooks>its done with expand and delete
15:57<Nat_aS>it's huge, has detailed neiborhoods for all the cities, and is probably unplayable.
15:57<zooks>there is a patch for placing buildings manually but in its current state it's not compatible with trunk
15:57<Nat_aS>it has industries, but it's so hilly I can't imagine building networks on it.
15:57<drac_boy>nat_as is it too hilly for even a 4-tiles station?
15:58<Nat_aS>and 4 tiles stations on a map that huge would be sad.
15:58<drac_boy>hmm sounds like something more for trams/roads perhaps
15:58<drac_boy>oh or water too yeah
15:58<Nat_aS>it has an extensive highway network
15:58<zooks>Ive played the cindini map quite some time and it is possible to get a nice network by carefully deleting some urban areas
15:58<Zuu>Hmm, inserting something with eg priority 1490042763 breaks Fibonacci Heap. It only accepts priorities < 268435455 or it crashes.
15:58<Nat_aS>so busses might work
15:59<drac_boy>hmm I'll have to try that map now that you mentioned it
15:59<frosch123>Nat_aS: <- take a look at the real screenshots .p
16:00<Nat_aS>but I blame the inability to place trains docks in airports for this kind of developer's neglecting of the posibility of train networks
16:00<Nat_aS>I wish this kind of energey could be harvested to making gameable maps
16:01<drac_boy>umm what you mean by 'trains docks in airports'?
16:01<Nat_aS>and airports
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16:01<Nat_aS>I mean you can't make a scenario with preexisting networks
16:01<Nat_aS>and companies.
16:01<drac_boy>nat_as well its meant that way because theres no 'player' in the sense
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16:02<Nat_aS>well you could make a company that gets taken over by the player at the start of the game.
16:02<Nat_aS>or competitor companies that start out with full networks.
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16:04<Nat_aS>what we have right now is not so much a scenerio editor but a map editor
16:04<Nat_aS>a scenario usually has more complex circumstances in it.
16:05<Nat_aS>like "Take over this failing company and make it profitable" or "Compete with these existing companies and eventually buy them out" or
16:05<Nat_aS>"Deal with these pre-scripted disasters"
16:05*Zuu tries the Fibonacci from NoCAB
16:05<drac_boy>thats not a tycoon company game..more like stragety game? :)
16:05<Nat_aS>not really
16:06<Nat_aS>lots of tycoon company games have scenerios like that
16:06*Alberth points Nat_aS to goal scripts
16:06<Nat_aS>and yes those are a step in the right direction.
16:06<drac_boy>nat_as even Railroad Tycoon is listed as a stragety game fyi
16:06<Nat_aS>but the ability to place company infrastructure in the editor would be nice.
16:06<Nat_aS>drac_boy, all tycoon company games are strategy games.
16:06<drac_boy>not really
16:07<Nat_aS>anyways, games made by chris sawyer frequently have scenerios like that.
16:07<Nat_aS>you are kind of being silly here.
16:08<Nat_aS>most of the maps in roller coaster tycoon featured existing infrastructure for your to build off of. And almost always had a winning condition.
16:09<Nat_aS>actually they all had winning conditions.
16:09<Ammler>afaik, the "old" scenarios had companies in it, clearing companies in sceanrios is a openttd feature
16:09<drac_boy>hmm true but btw it depended on which cd it was. one of the expansion pack was pretty much almost all blank maps
16:10*drac_boy had RCT with two expansions. only kept one of the latter tho
16:10<Ammler>well, I meant the old openttd scenarios, clearing companies was introduced around 0.7
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16:11<Ammler>can't you just make saves instead?
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16:11<Ammler>might not be banananble
16:12<Nat_aS>yes, but the argument that A) Tycoon games are distinct from strategy games, and B) that scenario scenerios are not found in them is such a terrible argument.
16:12<Nat_aS>and yes Ammler that is a workaround, but it's not really a good one
16:12<Nat_aS>allowing placement of companies in the scenario editor would add a lot of powerful options.
16:12<Ammler>I guess, clearing companies was an accident by an other feature :-)
16:12<Nat_aS>also it would allow the scenario editor to be used as a sandbox mode.
16:13<Eddi|zuHause>good news everybody!
16:13<Eddi|zuHause>i can now say with definity, that r23703 breaks the 32px depot flag
16:14<Ammler>you can't upload saves to bananas
16:14<Eddi|zuHause>he meant bananaable
16:14<Nat_aS>yeah what does that mean?
16:14<Ammler>hmm, you could try to simply reanme a sav to scn
16:15<Nat_aS>that sounds like it would crash things a lot.
16:15<Ammler>should not, that is the way, how you edit a save
16:16<Ammler>yes, just do not laod it into the scenario editor as that would clean the companies
16:16<+michi_cc>Eddi|zuHause: Interesting, but quite surprising.
16:18<Nat_aS>this is chris sawyer's house
16:19<Nat_aS> this is chris sawyer's university.
16:19<Eddi|zuHause>Nat_aS: yes, we all saw that page before :)
16:22<@Alberth>Ammler: hi, I tried to update the hg hook script, but I failed, it seems fundamentally broken :(
16:23<@Alberth>which means I have to start from square 1 :(
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16:24<Ammler>the one on our server?
16:24<Ammler>hmm, that should still work
16:24<Ammler>feel free to use the repo test for it
16:25<@Alberth>maybe because you don't have the hook script in the repo itself, or because you have a checked-out copy of the repo?
16:25<@Alberth>I could not get info from a file in the repo, which is bot at the disk as checked out copy
16:25<Ammler>we link directly to the script in the repo checkout
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16:26<Eddi|zuHause>michi_cc: yeah, i see that the commit touches that function, but i see no (obvious) functionality change
16:28<Ammler>remote: error: changegroup.notify hook raised an exception: [Errno 2] No such file or directory: '.devzone/hooks/notify.ini'
16:28<Ammler>Alberth: tried to push a commit with a file .grf
16:28<Ammler>I see
16:28<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: try to compile without optimisation
16:28<Ammler>that is the "Eddi|zuHause" Hook
16:29<frosch123>or put a breakpoint at newgrf.cpp:6694
16:29<frosch123>when _cur.grffile->traininfo_vehicle_width is assigned
16:30<Eddi|zuHause>it "works" when i revert that commit on current trunk
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16:30<Ammler>Alberth: but the current hook still works, you have issues to get the casecheck working, right?
16:31<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: no idea how to work with breakpoints
16:31<Ammler>remote: File ".devzone/test.blub" may not be added to the repository.transaction abort!
16:31<Ammler>remote: rollback completed
16:31<Ammler>remote: abort: pretxnchangegroup.check hook failed
16:31<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: only ever used those in an IDE
16:31<@Alberth>Ammler: I created a test setup, but cannot get a value different from the defaults, even if I set a value in the config file. Debugging showed it does not load the file from the repo
16:32<Ammler>we have global rule to forbid .grf
16:32<Ammler>but we can still have local rule to allow it
16:33<@Alberth>loading from disk works
16:33<Eddi|zuHause>[24.03.2012 21:28] <Ammler> that is the "Eddi|zuHause" Hook <-- what's that have to do with me?
16:34<frosch123>the best gui i know for gdb is "ddd"
16:34<Ammler>Eddi|zuHause: email notify for commits
16:34<frosch123>it's quite old and has some weird things, but i have not seen any better
16:34<Ammler>Alberth: repo test has no checkout on the server
16:34<Ammler>so you read the local config from repo, not file
16:34<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: works correctly with --enable-debug=3
16:34<@Alberth>Ammler: weird
16:35<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: so we have a optimiser bug in your compiler?
16:35<Ammler>Alberth: I am specially suprised that you were able to make such a hook, but the "official" notify hook for Eddi needs a checkout :-)
16:35<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: quite possibly
16:36<frosch123>unless you have a uncommon compiler version, that's bad :s
16:36<+michi_cc>MSVC debug seems to work as well, checking release now. But yes, suspect compiler bug.
16:36<@Alberth>Ammler: documentation is very much absent, I am not surprised
16:36<Ammler>but your hook works very nice
16:37<Ammler>no need of server side checkout but still customizeable per repo
16:37<@Alberth>running hg 1.9.3 ?
16:37<Ammler>on the server, should be 2.1.1, let me check
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16:38<Ammler>hmm, no, 1.9.3 only
16:38<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: (gdb) b newgrf.cpp:6694 No source file named newgrf.cpp.Make breakpoint pending on future shared library load? (y or [n])
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16:38<Ammler>that is strange
16:38<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: if i press 'y' there, then nothing happens upon opening the depot window
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16:39<@Alberth>Ammler: yes it is. I don't understand it at all. Maybe I messed up somewhere
16:39<Eddi|zuHause>> g++ --version g++ (SUSE Linux) 4.6.2
16:39<bremerjoe>good evening y'all
16:39<Ammler>Alberth: maybe try again with the script from our server
16:40<@Alberth>I thought I did that (knowing myself, I have run a diff between both versions), but I can try again
16:40<Ammler>I check again, if we really run unmodified version
16:41<@Alberth>bremerjoe: y'all does not seem to be present, but welcome
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16:42<Ammler>pretxnchangegroup.check = python:/home/hg/misc/mercurial/hooks/ <-- definitly unchanged and tip
16:42<+michi_cc>Eddi|zuHause: MSVC release looks good as well, so compiler I guess :(
16:43<Ammler>changeset: 155:71887afdcf39
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16:43<Ammler>Alberth: as said, feel free to use repo test
16:44<Ammler>hg@dev:~/test> hg id
16:45<@Alberth>I'd like to have a local test setup. I am running a checkout over localhost, with hg serve. I think that should be equivalent
16:45<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: you need to compile at least with --enable-debug
16:46<frosch123>anyway, you can also try to put a "external" in front of the definition of the var in newgrf.cpp
16:46<Ammler>just meant to compare answers
16:46<frosch123>maybe that tells the optimizer more explicitly that the var can be modified elsewhere
16:46<+michi_cc>extern, not external :)
16:46<frosch123>yeah :)
16:47<@Alberth>Ammler: will try your setup, that at least should work :p
16:47<+michi_cc>Or even volatile :)
16:47<Ammler>hg serve?
16:47<Ammler>it should also work with simple push via file
16:47<frosch123>michi_cc: safe the bigger hammer for later :p
16:47<Ammler>I pushed via ssh
16:48<Ammler>but I am quite sure, also the http variant worked
16:48<@Alberth>until it works, I like to eliminate as many causes as possible
16:48<@Alberth>I would be very sad if I have to run ssh
16:49<Ammler>well, locally, you do it that way (just without ssh) :-)
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16:49<Ammler>you don't use serve usually
16:50*Alberth nods
16:50<@Alberth>but the normal ways didn't work either
16:50<Ammler>you do? :-o
16:51<Ammler>Alberth: maybe you simply forgot to setup the hook?
16:51<@Alberth>nope, I got errors from it :p
16:52<@Alberth>and output, just not the right output ;)
16:52<Ammler>the script and global ini is checkout
16:52<@Alberth>well, I'll try again
16:53<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: gdb output (repeated several times with the same values)
16:54<frosch123>Ammler: is there an update to that pastebin thingie available?
16:54<frosch123>it always breaks when reading replies, and you have to clear the cookies
16:57<Ammler>hmm, true, this is another todo :-/
16:58<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: well, not exactly what i wanted, but it also shows the problem: _misc_grf_features != res
16:58<Ammler>frosch123: in this case, I don't see the advantage to make a replay, though
16:59<frosch123>eddi replied to my paste, and i wanted to read it
16:59<Ammler>well, he replied and replaced everything
17:00<Ammler>I just meant, an alternative would be to remove reply at all
17:01<Ammler>as nobody yet was able to tell me how to fix it :-)
17:01<Eddi|zuHause> <-- with --enable-debug=3
17:03<frosch123>does the "extern" thingie help?
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17:05<Eddi|zuHause>src/newgrf.cpp:68:13: warning: ‘_misc_grf_features’ initialized and declared ‘extern’ [enabled by default]
17:06<Eddi|zuHause>no change
17:08<Eddi|zuHause>but "volatile" seems to do something
17:12<Eddi|zuHause>i'm gonna screw up my system now, might take a while...
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17:41<Nat_aS>bough locomotion on GOG
17:41<Nat_aS>why are there no advanced signal types?
17:42<Nat_aS>realistic turning was intresting, but I can't make any kind of network using only normal signals
17:43<@peter1138>lomo smells
17:43<@peter1138>sad but true
17:44<Nat_aS>also it's almst as ugly as sumutrans
17:44<Nat_aS>Somehow pre-rendered sprites worked in RTC (RTC would probably be imposible to do with pixel art), but not in locomo
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17:52<Nat_aS>it's strange because RTC was going to be an updaited engine for TTD
17:53<Nat_aS>but apparently it sucks for that sort of thing
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17:56<Nat_aS>sucks because I'd say 3d networks are the most wanted feature out of TTD
17:56<Nat_aS>and the hardest to implement.
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18:00<MNIM>3d networks?
18:01<frosch123>railtrack going vertically to the moon
18:02<@Terkhen>good night
18:02<Wolf01>night Terkhen
18:02<Eddi|zuHause>so... at least it booted :)
18:03<Wolf01>I would like to have just the map rotation and the unlinked terrain blocks, for the other things OTTD is really better than LoMo
18:03<Nat_aS>Elivated rails and subways
18:03<Nat_aS>more complex bridges and tunnels
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18:04<Nat_aS>would require firstly a change in the way TTD stores memory, and secondly, all buildings to have a height variable.
18:04<Eddi|zuHause>mäh... forgot to recompile the taskbar...
18:05<Nat_aS>the last would also add other interesting possibilities such as airplanes colliding with tall buildings :P
18:05<Nat_aS>it's funny to watch them clip right now though.
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18:23<k-man>is 32bbp useable with osx and openttd 1.2.0-rc3?
18:26<Eddi|zuHause>yes, openttd 1.2.x on OSX can use 32bpp. no, no existing 32bpp pack can be used with openttd 1.2.x
18:28<k-man>so - its not for users yet?
18:28<MNIM>oh, like that 3d networks.
18:29<MNIM>yeah, lomo style building would be nice. map rotation is pretty meh to me, and would requires a ton of new sprites, which is harder to make than changing the way ottd saves stuff.
18:29<Eddi|zuHause>it's for users yet. but the 32bpp pack has not followed up with the development yet
18:30<k-man>Eddi|zuHause, so when a pack is made, then it will be easier to use?
18:44<k-man>thanks Eddi|zuHause
18:44<k-man>i turned on some double pixel ui once, how do i turn it off?
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18:45<frosch123>zoom out
18:45<frosch123>oh, you mean the gui
18:45<k-man>yeah the icons in the gui
18:45<frosch123>go to newgrf settings and remove the extra large gui
18:45<frosch123>can only be done in main menu for new games though
18:47<k-man>oh - so once its in a game, its in the game for ever?
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18:54<k-man>whats the keyboard shortcut to increase land height?
19:00<frosch123>q, w, e
19:00<k-man>thanks frosch123
19:00<frosch123>one of those, never can remember. it's always the second one i try :)
19:02<bremerjoe>good night everybody
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19:28<k-man>can i convert entry signals to combo?
19:29<k-man>or do i just remove and rebuild them?
19:29<frosch123>either use the convert tool, or ctrl+click on the signals
19:29<frosch123>(ctrl+click with the signal tool)
19:29<k-man>ah thanks
19:30<frosch123>ctrl+click will rotate though signal types, which you can define in advanced settings
19:30<k-man>whats the prefered way of making a roro exit?
19:30<k-man>in terms of signaling
19:31<frosch123>check the wiki or openttdcoop
19:31<frosch123>there is no simple answer :)
19:31<frosch123>to such a general question
19:33<k-man>ok yeah it was a bit general
19:33<k-man>two platform station , roro, going out to one exit track
19:33<frosch123>one exit track? err... i think everything will work
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19:37<Nat_aS>Hmm, the snow line setting is not seeming to work when I try to load a heightmap
19:37<frosch123> <- i think it only gets interesting with more than 2 exits
19:37<Nat_aS>preventing me from making farms
19:37<frosch123>s/more than 2/more than 1/
19:38<Eddi|zuHause>Nat_aS: sure you have not loaded a NewGRF with variable snowline?
19:39<Nat_aS>the map I am stealing a heightmap from, had no snow in it
19:39<Nat_aS>dispite being artic
19:41<Nat_aS>it's a rather flat map
19:42<Nat_aS>like only 5 levels to it
19:42<Nat_aS>and snow always stats on the 3rd reguardless of setting
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19:45<Rhamphoryncus>Nat_aS: double check that you have no newgrf's loaded
19:45*frosch123 prepared the time machine
19:45<frosch123>night :)
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19:45<Nat_aS>i do have newgrifs loaded
19:45<Nat_aS>let me see
19:46<Nat_aS>OpenGFX landscapes mess with the snowline?
19:46<Rhamphoryncus>That was my next suggestion, to use it for a work around :)
19:46<Nat_aS>oh there is an option there to adjust it based on time of year.
19:47*Rhamphoryncus closes mental ticket: NOTABUG ;)
19:49<Nat_aS>darn, apparently I can't have fields one level below snow
19:49<Nat_aS>I wanted to have farms on the foothills above the city in the valley
19:49<Rhamphoryncus>yeah, you need it a level higher
19:50<Rhamphoryncus>Also, be aware that variable snowlines means it annually rebuilds, then destroys fields that are too high
19:50<Nat_aS>which might be an intresting effect.
19:51<Nat_aS>will farms still produce without fields?
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19:51<Nat_aS>in other news, I just thought of a killer comeback when Andy comes back
19:52<Nat_aS>Fishing boats are not transportion, Fishing fleets are owned by food companies.
19:53<Nat_aS>if he wants to be strict about what is and is not transportation, he should just make fishing harbors be priamary producers that create food.
19:53<Wolf01>'night all
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20:20<Eddi|zuHause>Nat_aS: it's not like we never had this discussion before
20:20<Eddi|zuHause>Nat_aS: i think the biggest argument was "i already have the sprites" :p
20:21<Nat_aS>oh that's an even sillier argument, because sprites are the easiest thing to change.
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20:21<Nat_aS>although I admit the fishing harbor sprites are pretty
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20:25<Eddi|zuHause>it was more about the fishing boats, not the fishing harbors
20:26<Nat_aS>anyways I was intending my argument to go the other direction
20:26<Nat_aS>that things should not be excluded for not being strictly transportion
20:26<Nat_aS>the strongest argument being that no company operates trains, ships, trucks and airplanes at the same time.
20:27<Nat_aS>(although many operate two or three to some extent)
20:27<Eddi|zuHause>that's not an argument at all...
20:28<Nat_aS>well what is a better one?
20:28<Eddi|zuHause>it's often not really apparent for an "outsider" to even know who owns a company
20:29<Eddi|zuHause>do you know whether your breakfast cereals and your toothbrush are produced by the same company?
20:29<Eddi|zuHause>or whether these companies are owned by the same corporation?
20:31<Nat_aS>vertical and horizontal monopolies exist. Saying something should not be in the game because it's not strictly transportation is leaving out one of the most important things raillway companies do
20:32<Nat_aS>funding towns IRL
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20:41<Eddi|zuHause>so? funding towns is part of the game... what exactly is your point?
20:45<Nat_aS>no, Andy was saying that funding towns and industries should not be in the game because they are "Not transportation"
20:46<Nat_aS>it started with him saying that replanting trees in tropic maps were useless micromanagement of something that is "Not transportation"
20:47<Eddi|zuHause>yes. and you're talking in circles all day long...
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20:50<Nat_aS>i just said it would be a comeback for when andy comes back.
20:50<Nat_aS>you are the one talking in circles around me.
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20:53<Eddi|zuHause>i'm saying your discussion has not been, is not, and will not lead anywhere
20:54<Eddi|zuHause>s/lead/be leading/
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21:19<Eddi|zuHause>someone stole me an hour!!
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---Logclosed Sun Mar 25 00:00:12 2012