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#openttd IRC Logs for 2012-03-27

---Logopened Tue Mar 27 00:00:18 2012
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07:13<Rhamphoryncus>Gee, I just rebuilt my airport, now the plane that was about to arrive is just going in tight circles.. err... :P
07:14<MNIM>yeah, those aircrafts pull turns that not even a fighter would be able to do :P
07:16<@peter1138>check its orders
07:16<@peter1138>if it hasn't crashed already :p
07:18<Pikka>I don't know why making planes hit the statemachine prettily is considered a hurdle for newairports... they certainly don't hit the current statemachines prettily
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07:21<Rhamphoryncus>The airport was a drop, joined with some other stations at a factory. Emphasis on "was"
07:22<Rhamphoryncus>By the 3rd attempt I got it right
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08:14<CQ>is there a way I can get openttd to automatically grab graphics and sound on startup? I get the message Error: Failed to find a graphics set. Please acquire a graphics set for OpenTTD. See section 4.1 of readme.txt.
08:14<CQ>If I grab the mercurial files, I guess I need to build the data first before putting it in .openttd/* ?
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08:15<Pinkbeast>What is the difficulty with the instructions in section 4.1 of the readme?
08:15<MNIM>they're in letters.
08:15<MNIM>letters are hard
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08:34<Eddi|zuHause>maybe we should encode them in numbers instead
08:34<Eddi|zuHause>numbers are easier, because they are fewer
08:37<__ln__>yeah, only from zero to infinity
08:38<Eddi|zuHause>sorry. i meant digits :)
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09:28<@Belugas>hello
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09:45<goodger>hi
09:47<CQ>wouldn't it make sense to name the road vehivles after what they can transport, i.e. Livestock11 and Coal14 etc.?
09:52<@planetmaker>CQ: wouldn't that be dead boring?
09:53<@planetmaker>CQ: and... new versions of openttd DO grab all files upon startup, if not found (at least on windows and linux)
09:55<@planetmaker>but generally, CQ, especially if you have several installs, do put your base sets and newgrf files in the user's global openttd data dir (not relative to the binary)
09:57<@Belugas>CQ: I think it would make sens for you, but it might very well be against other players schemes
09:57<@Belugas>bottom line: adapt, don't impose ;)
09:57<@Belugas>my thoughs
09:58<@peter1138>i don't name my vehicles
09:58<@peter1138>i'm lazy
10:04<Pikka>next 1.2 RC due soon? :)
10:05<Pikka>and it's true, he is
10:05<@planetmaker>why RC? :-P
10:06<Eddi|zuHause>i don't think we ever had a 4th RC
10:06<Pikka>well
10:06<Pikka>okay
10:06<Pikka>just as long as "my" bugfixes get backported :)
10:07<Eddi|zuHause>but with the amount of prospected bugfixes, a last-minute RC might be useful
10:07<Eddi|zuHause>like 3 days before release
10:07<Pikka>yes
10:07<@planetmaker>what would be the use therein, Eddi|zuHause?
10:07<@planetmaker>it would not get any test, thus a pointless RC
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10:07<Pikka>it would get 3 days of test
10:08<Pikka>better than a poke in the eye with a damp marshmallow
10:08<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: ideally, there should be no changes between an RC and a release
10:08<@planetmaker>Yes, of course there shouldn't
10:08<@planetmaker>but ideally there should be *some* significant testing between RC and release
10:09<Eddi|zuHause>that's why i said 3 days
10:09<Pikka>insignificant testing
10:09<Eddi|zuHause>and not 3 hours
10:10<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: the main idea is to test things that may get broken by the backports themselves
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10:20<@Belugas>i see that peter1138 has the same game style as mine ;)
10:20<Eddi|zuHause>you actually play the game? :p
10:20<CornishPasty>There's a game?
10:21<@peter1138>loads of changes without RC, no thanks
10:21<@peter1138>i know, it's more work...
10:21<oskari89>Hey, does someone know about graphics palette? http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=43560&start=120#p1003388 Help would be appreciated there :P
10:21<oskari89>So, is that sand tile within TTD-Win palette?
10:22<@Belugas>Eddi|zuHause, yeah, i kinda get back on it, on my way home :)
10:25<Eddi|zuHause>oskari89: generally, making a small test grf (with either grfcodec or nml) will tell you whether it's the right palette
10:25<Eddi|zuHause>oskari89: also, you might consider switching to DOS palette
10:26<@planetmaker>yeah. No point using the windoze palette for new newgrfs.
10:28<@planetmaker>and grfcodec or nml will naturally complain, if a graphics file has the wrong palette
10:29<@planetmaker>oskari89: why do you draw there X times the equipment cabin instead of composing that as tile layout in the game (and drawing each ground tile only once and each view of the cabin only once and gaining the chance to easily use other ground tiles, too)
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10:30<@planetmaker>the cabin could be a micron-sized building on top of a ground tile
10:30<@planetmaker>same actually with all the houses and whatever
10:30<@planetmaker>less work. easier extended to other ground tiles
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10:38<oskari89>Planetmaker: I don't know about tile layouts :P
10:38-!-DonKarnage_ [~266c5714@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has joined #openttd
10:39<oskari89>That's why i did paste all those..
10:39<@planetmaker>oskari89: did you write a station newgrf so far? (I thought so)
10:39<oskari89>No, i didn't :P
10:39<oskari89>I wait for a coder to do his job, which i have already..
10:39<@planetmaker>otherwise I really would like to suggest to post the (ground) tiles separately and the single elements on it as seaprate sprites
10:40<DonKarnage_>Is there anything that can control how much each industries produces?
10:40<@planetmaker>then the coder can arrange them on the tiles
10:40<@planetmaker>ok, sorry, I thought we were in the process of writing it already, oskari89
10:41<oskari89>Base tiles are there, just need to do little changes, such as that sand....
10:41<@planetmaker>one can compose the stuff on a tile as ground tile (+ child sprites within its bounding box) + building sprite (+ child sprites within its bounding box)
10:41<@planetmaker>yeah
10:42<@planetmaker>thus much less drawing is actually needed
10:42<@planetmaker>you only need to draw the building (w/o ground) from all views. You don't need to add ground there
10:42<@planetmaker>you might want to create an additional sprite which shows the buildings footprint in black (for the transparent mode)
10:43<oskari89>Ok.
10:43<oskari89>Thanks for the info.
10:43<@planetmaker>always welcome
10:47<@planetmaker>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/firs/repository/raw/sprites/graphics/industries/buildersyard.png might illustrate how e.g. FIRS does it for the builder's yard
10:47<@planetmaker>note that the dirt tracks are drawn on top of the default ground tile
10:47<@planetmaker>which the newgrf does not supply itself :-)
10:48<@planetmaker>thus it's base set ground + dirt tracks + one of the buildings shown there
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10:49<@planetmaker>(and icy tracks for snowy terrain: http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/firs/repository/raw/sprites/graphics/industries/buildersyard_snow.png
10:49<@planetmaker>thus you might want to consider also drawing snow versions of your buildings. Or maybe just a separate sprite which adds snow on top :-)
10:49<@planetmaker>might be more interesting actually
10:50<@planetmaker>as it allows easier adjustment of house sprites w/o need to touch the snow house in the same way
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10:56<@planetmaker>oskari89: I wonder whether some of that stuff could become part of the CHIPS station set
10:56<@planetmaker>(need to ask andy / yexo about CHIPS)
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11:08<oskari89>Well, what part of those?
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11:11<@planetmaker>well, that's what would need discussion I guess. It's andy's baby.
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11:17<oskari89>Planetmaker: But no need to replace already done stuff with overlaying those sprites.. ?
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11:45<Eddi|zuHause>how do you make tracks from ice?
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11:59<Eddi|zuHause>http://img.pr0gramm.com/2012/03/522264-3540143872726-1546310408-3039323-273015234-n.jpg
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12:00<@planetmaker>hehe
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12:02<@planetmaker>oskari89: well. Needed certainly not
12:03<@planetmaker>maybe it's easier to code, though
12:03<@planetmaker>depends a bit on approach
12:05<CQ>how do you remove a signal?
12:05<Eddi|zuHause>press R
12:06<Eddi|zuHause>(or the bulldozer button)
12:07<CQ>well, that worked, now how do I remove a train wreck ? ;)
12:08<Eddi|zuHause>load your previous savegame, which you certainly did right before messing with signals on a live junction :p
12:08<Eddi|zuHause>otherwise, wait like one month
12:08<CQ>lol as I was experimenting no big loss ;)
12:09<oskari89>Hmm, there's town cars...
12:09<oskari89>But why there's no sports cars? :D
12:09<Eddi|zuHause>anyone know bash-fu? need a function that reads the output of a command and say whether it is "true" or "false"
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12:12<oskari89>But there's this: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=35126 :D
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12:14<Eddi|zuHause>hm... that seemed to work...
12:17<oskari89>Mazda RX7 and Nissan Skyline R32 would be nice in that set.. :)
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12:34<oskari89>In fact, online OpenTTD streetracing/roadracing mod would be amusing.
12:35<Nat_aS>wut?
12:36<Nat_aS>is there a way to get towns to generate civilian cars?
12:36<Nat_aS>to cause traffic jams and provide eye candy?
12:37<oskari89>There is a AI for that, and grf.. :P
12:38<Nat_aS>could it be tied into town growth?
12:38<Nat_aS>like if you send lots of goods it goes up, but if you provide transportation it goes down?
12:39<Eddi|zuHause>sounds good. go ahead :)
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12:39<oskari89>If someone writes a patch for it.. :P
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13:05<Eddi|zuHause>oskari89: it should be already possible, if you convert the AI into a GameScript
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13:09<@Terkhen>hello
13:15<andythenorth>'make choo choo'
13:15<andythenorth>"new in 1.2.0: the toddler interface"
13:17<andythenorth>I've attached a preview here: http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/2730/make_choo_choo.png
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13:18<V453000>wtf :-D
13:24<@Terkhen>http://photo-dictionary.com/photofiles/list/5566/9735toy_train.jpg <--- it already exists
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13:28<V453000>oh, I dont have such train in NUTS yet
13:28<V453000>:D
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13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: translators * r24076 /trunk/src/lang/ (6 files): (log message trimmed)
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: french - 4 changes by OliTTD
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: italian - 1 changes by lorenzodv
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: latvian - 1 changes by Parastais
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: lithuanian - 2 changes by Stabilitronas
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: luxembourgish - 8 changes by Phreeze
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14:26<Nat_aS>8 way rotations scare me
14:27<Nat_aS>I mean 12
14:28<Nat_aS>the train sprites that can be rotated in 12 directions scare me because I can't imagine spriting up all those angles, and I'm afraid it will encourage people to trace 3dcg models
14:28<Nat_aS>and next thing we know, we are Simutrans/Locomotion
14:28<Nat_aS>and all the charming pixel art is lost.
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14:37<V453000>Nat_aS: I have pretty much exactly the same opinion :)
14:38<Nat_aS>the problem with incresing technical graphics, is you have to increse artist skill along with it
14:38<Nat_aS>or the result will be ugly
14:38<Nat_aS>i'm not one of those guys who hates 3d games
14:38<Nat_aS>but I don't like it when they overlap
14:40<V453000>well, I myself do not intend to switch to 32bpp/extra zoom/24rotations. Colours simply because I like drawing in the limited palette for pixel art, zoom simply because I consider that pointless and the main focus still has to be the normal zoom, and rotations simply because that would taky waaaay too much more effort than it does now
14:41<V453000>but on the other hand I can imagine that combining all of those three with 3dcg modelling could look great
14:41<andythenorth>V453000: your stuff will be increasingly left behind
14:41<andythenorth>we're now in a simutrans world of multiple non-compatible paks
14:41<V453000>too bad :)
14:41<andythenorth>whereas previously all grfs were in principle, compatible
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14:42<andythenorth>now there will be competing standards
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14:42<V453000>well, why not :)
14:43<V453000>I will stay with the old standards however
14:44<Nat_aS>soon we will be simutrans
14:44<Nat_aS>PACK 128! ugly traced 3dcgi all day every day
14:44<Nat_aS>the higher resolution you get though, the more glaring inconsistencies in scale become tohugh.
14:44<V453000>lol :))
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14:48<Nat_aS>really, I want to see a train game where tracks take up quarter tiles.
14:48<Nat_aS>or rather houses and roads are twice as wide as tracks.
14:48<V453000>hm?
14:49<V453000>strange requirement
14:49<Nat_aS>the scale problem comes from the fact that everything is 1 square wide.
14:49<Nat_aS>a house, a road, a train track
14:49<Nat_aS>all a single tile
14:50<frosch123>multi tile stuff is a lot more complicated
14:50<Pinkbeast>Surely a more glaringly unavoidable scale problem is length rather than width?
14:51<Nat_aS>well in this case, train cars would be more than 1 tile long
14:51<Nat_aS>trains and there tracks are long and thin, houses and roads are wider.
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14:52<V453000>lol, I cant say I ever cared about scales, lengths or whatever
14:53<Pinkbeast>That doesn't matter. A car can be 2 tiles or 1 or 1/2, but: "player can pan across the map sensibly", "trains have visible length on the map rather than being points", "short hops on the map are not absurdly close to train-length"... pick two.
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14:57<Nat_aS>increse distances as well then!
14:58<Pinkbeast>Now the map is unfeasibly huge; you picked numbers 2 and 3.
14:59<Nat_aS>most maps are unfeasibly huge in OTTD already :V
14:59<Nat_aS>what they really need to do is add move upwards zoom levels
14:59<Nat_aS>so you can actualy see the map
14:59<Nat_aS>probably also make things more visible without having to consult the minmap
15:00<Nat_aS>like when you zoom all the way out, you start to see an overlay
15:00<Nat_aS>like supreme commander.
15:00<Pinkbeast>That's "trains appear as points", if the map is really vast and you have to zoom right out to use it
15:00<Nat_aS>they would not appear as points on regular zoom
15:00<Nat_aS>just when you zoom all the way out
15:01<Nat_aS>and I was thinking more of factories and towns appear as points
15:01<Nat_aS>and trains are invisible at high zoom levels
15:01<Pinkbeast>OK, so you're letting the player choose whether the game fails #1 or #2. You still can't have all 3.
15:01<Nat_aS>so the game does not slow down
15:01<Nat_aS>you don't need all three at once though.
15:01<CQ>how do you make cities grow faster? people transport, and give them goods, or is more needed?
15:01<Pinkbeast>Errr yes, since I'm saying you can't have all three at once, I presumably know that
15:01<Nat_aS>just that
15:02<Nat_aS>unless it's tropical
15:02<Nat_aS>then they need water as well
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15:02<Nat_aS>and you forgot food.
15:02<Nat_aS>they need food, goods, and most importantly pasingers and mail
15:02<Nat_aS>water if they are in a desert.
15:02<Nat_aS>i don't think goods and food are nessary, but they help
15:03<Nat_aS>unless it's the desert, then water and food are nessary
15:03<Nat_aS>i'm not sure about alpine
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15:10<oskari89>Is OpenTTD going to have 24 rotations?
15:10<oskari89>^
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15:12<Nat_aS>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/2731/255_9_Virgin_8bpp_normal.png some newgrfs will, the engine supports it now.
15:12<oskari89>Ok, what about tracks?
15:12<Nat_aS>keep in mind that 24 is just 12 twice
15:12<Nat_aS>no, tracks are still 8 ways
15:13<Nat_aS>but this allows trains to turn corners more gracefully.
15:13*andythenorth will draw buildings instead
15:13<andythenorth>with 1 rotation :P
15:13<Nat_aS>i want to see sprites for going up and down hills without looking silly.
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15:14<oskari89>Corners are a pain, i would like to see curves instead :P
15:14<frosch123>andythenorth: draw windmills with infinite rotation
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15:15<andythenorth>which type of infinity?
15:15<@Alberth>pick one :)
15:15<andythenorth>can I pick 0?
15:15<andythenorth>for some definitions 0 is infinite
15:16<@Alberth>oh, happy to not use some definitions then :)
15:16<andythenorth>0 is for example, infinitely small
15:17<Nat_aS>yes but zero rotations is no sprite at all
15:17<@Alberth>isn't -1 smaller?
15:17<andythenorth>it is, for some definitions of 'measurement', unmeasurably small
15:17<Nat_aS>and no -1 is a whole 1 away from 0
15:17<Nat_aS>and because of the nature of numbers, it's an infinite distance from zero.
15:18<andythenorth>on a cartesian plane, 0 is an infinitely small distance from origin
15:18<Nat_aS>and 1 is an infinite distance from zero.
15:18<andythenorth>only if you're applying zeno's paradox
15:19*andythenorth ponders doing work instead
15:19<@Alberth>that's inifinitely more productive, probably
15:20<Nat_aS>lol
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15:38<Rhamphoryncus>Huh, never seen a ship randomly get lost before
15:38<@Alberth>there's a first for everything :p
15:38<Nat_aS>never?
15:38<Nat_aS>that happlens like all the time
15:39<Nat_aS>do you not play on maps with complex coastlines?
15:41<andythenorth>it's easy to trap a ship behind a peninsula
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15:42<Nat_aS>or in a cove
15:46<Rhamphoryncus>oskari89: I've been looking at real curves. I'd have to drug the devs to have any chance of acceptance though ;)
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15:54<@Alberth>we should code them while drugged? Not sure you'd like the result :D
15:55<Nat_aS>I think I remember a probably autocratically story of Email being invented while high.
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16:25<Rhamphoryncus>Alberth: naw, I'm gonna code it, it's just committing that needs to happen while high :)
16:26<@Alberth>:)
16:31<@Terkhen>cout << "Real curve" << endl; // You did not need to drug me.
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16:40<Sidar>Hey guys, doing a school assignment on Design patterns. I picked OpenTTD as my source of code. I've found 6 patterns so far. I assumed a Flyweight pattern would also be there for visuals. Could someone help me understand how the visuals are rendered?
16:41<@Alberth>from the map, and newgrfs
16:42<@Alberth>viewport.cpp iirc
16:42<__ln__>have you identified any anti-design patterns?
16:42<Sidar>No need for anti-design patterns so I didnt look for it xD
16:43<@Alberth>I am not sure we need patterns either :)
16:43<Sidar>Alberth: I looked at viewport.cpp but can't figure out how images are managed. I assume every object that needs to be drawn takes graphical data from one source?
16:44<@Alberth>haha :D
16:45<@Alberth>map has several types of tiles, each tile has its own set of bits to decide what to draw
16:45<@Alberth>objects have xy hash I think, never looked at it in detail
16:46<Sidar>Yes but how are these images managed? I assume you don't literaly create a new instance of an image for every object. You simply draw it at a certain position right?
16:46<@Alberth>then the sprites are looked up in the newgrf through the sprite cache, where in general you draw a number of sprites as defined in the newgrf
16:46<Sidar>I was hoping to find a flyweight pattern somewhere, but I really can't.
16:47<Sidar>okai ill check newgrf
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16:47<@Alberth>newgrf is quite literally everything you see
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16:47<Sidar>In which virtual map does it reside?
16:48<Sidar>Ow nvm
16:48<andythenorth>adobe flash might use flyweight pattern for instances of movieclips
16:48<andythenorth>maybe
16:49<Sidar>I know of several flyweight implementations. But for some reason OpenTTD overwhelms me
16:49<andythenorth>hah
16:49<andythenorth>:)
16:49<Sidar>I figured most games use it anyways. Saves tons of memory
16:49<@Alberth>it's written before OO was invented :)
16:50<Sidar>figures
16:50<@Alberth>s/'s/ was/
16:50<__ln__>Alberth: design patterns exist regardless of OO.
16:50<@Alberth>I guess you could see newgrf sprite references as flyweight stuff
16:51<Sidar>that is true, and there are actually some visible patterns.
16:51<@Alberth>__ln__: that does not make them needed
16:51<Sidar>Alberth: im looking at it right now...my C++ skillss....argh
16:52<__ln__>Alberth: design patterns exist even if they were not conciously used by the developer.
16:52<@Alberth>Sidar: code is pretty dense and complicated, not sure how that is with other games
16:52<Sidar>I wasn't trying to provoke a discussion guys =) sorry for that
16:52<@Alberth>__ln__: I am not arguing existence, I was arguing need for them :)
16:53<@Alberth>Sidar: no worries, it's on-topic here :)
16:55<Sidar>So when an object is about to draw it calls a newgrf object?
16:56<@Alberth>don't know how that works in detail, but the newgrf spec has all sorts of complicated ways to state what sprites to actually draw, so that has to be done somewhere
16:57<Sidar>Well do you know where the images/sprites are cached?
16:57<Sidar>perhaps that will help me by far
16:58<@Alberth>In spritecache.cpp ?? :)
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16:59<Sidar>Ok so the spritecache holds the actual sprite
17:00<Sidar>while the newgrf sorts out the drawing state
17:02<frosch123>for every tile there are 9 bytes in the map array
17:02<frosch123>one of them identifies the type of a tile which then identifies a set of function (like. virtual functions of a tile object) to do the stuff
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17:02<frosch123>one of them is for drawing the tile
17:02<Wolf01>hi
17:03<frosch123>it is up to the "tile class" to interpret/use the 9 bytes in the map as it fits
17:03<frosch123>for drawing every tile just dumps the sprites into some container, which is then sorted for drawing order (we have no z buffer, but sprite sorting) and then drawn
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17:05<Sidar>Thanks for the help, however I need to know how these sprites are loaded and cached so that they can be reused without making a new instance for every object.
17:06<Sidar>I have to create an uml diagram from it
17:06<Sidar>( if im being a pain just say so xD )
17:06<frosch123>they are put into some lru cache (is that it's name?)
17:07<Sidar>There is a spritecache
17:07<frosch123>there is a fixed size of sprite memory (the spritecache) and sprites are loaded from disk into it
17:07<frosch123>if it is full, the entry which was not used for the longest time is removed
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17:19<Sidar>Gah. Can't see how this works. =[
17:20<+michi_cc>Sidar: You won't find an OO object for the sprite stuff anywhere, but most visible entities store a SpriteID somehow (either indirectly in the map array or directly in the object, e.g. vehicles). The SpriteID is a reference into the sprite cache which stores the pixels to draw.
17:21<Sidar>and then passed into the blitter to draw?
17:21<+michi_cc>With a bit of a stretch you could say most of the map uses a flyweight design pattern. A station tile for example contains a reference to a StationSpec, which contains data common to all station tiles of the same kind.
17:22<Sidar>Thanks. Ill ook into these files
17:22<Sidar>look*
17:23<+michi_cc>Drawing is: collect visible entities, put corresponding sprites into a list, sort list by drawing order, send to blitter.
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17:24<@Alberth>ViewportDoDraw() looks like a main routine (lots of collecting, and at the end sorting & drawing)
17:24<__ln__>http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-17530734
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17:30<@Terkhen>good night
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17:44<frosch123>night
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18:09<Wolf01>'night all
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18:14<Sidar>Sorry for bothering you guys with this. But, I know there is a SpriteID, but what class gets the actual pixel data?
18:16<Sidar>nvm, im just going to fake this uml XD
18:21<Eddi|zuHause>the pixel data is in the sprite cache
18:21<Sidar>I know that
18:21<Sidar>But
18:22<Sidar>Doesnt it just load the complete spritesheet/TextureAtlas?
18:22<Sidar>or is it seperated into seperate sprites on load time?
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18:27<@planetmaker>each sprite is separate with its ID. But all are loaded upon load time, if the cache is big enough
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18:31<Eddi|zuHause>i don't actually know the code, but i presume that upon game start, only the positions of the sprites are loaded. the actual pixel data is only loaded on the first draw (and then cached for future redraws)
18:32<Eddi|zuHause>"position" means "which file and at what offset"
18:33<Eddi|zuHause>which btw brings me back to an old suggestion: in the sprite-aligner, it should show the grf-local sprite id
18:35<Sidar>Is there by any chance somewhere a State-Pattern implemented? Or something close to that?
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18:37<Eddi|zuHause>probably you should refer to the canonical documentation for that kind of question
18:39<__ln__>or the United States constitution
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18:52<+michi_cc>Sidar: If you want a class, then probably no. But the cursor action handling is doing it, just without classes (start at SetObjectToPlace in viewport.cpp).
19:00<Eddi|zuHause>Sidar: due to the nature of OpenTTD as a reverse-engineered asm-to-c project, some of this stuff may be so old it doesn't fit into classes or patterns very well
19:01<Sidar>Picked the wrong project then didnt I XD
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19:09<+michi_cc>Most of the design pattern crowd seems to forget that there's more than just object oriented programming, and obviously OOP is always the best thing in the world (Java, I'm looking at you :)
19:11<Eddi|zuHause>historically "design patterns" are not "how to do it" templates, but "how did people actually do this" surveys
19:12<Eddi|zuHause>no theoretical computer scientist ever bothered with "design patterns"
19:12<Sidar>It's just a school assignment, dont point at me.
19:13<Sidar>Eddi|zuHause: a bold statement dont you think? I mean they are applied in tons of applications.
19:14<Eddi|zuHause>Sidar: but applications are not written by theorists either
19:14<Sidar>However lots of theorists actually do bother with design patterns. I mean how else are they thought up to begin with.
19:15<zooks_>nightnight
19:15<Eddi|zuHause>Sidar: that's what i am telling you. design patterns were thought up by practicians, and later formalized when it worked.
19:15<Sidar>Design patterns are just abstract ideas, not actual implementations
19:16<Sidar>almost 2 am
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19:16<Eddi|zuHause>the pattern wasn't there first
19:16<Sidar>That doesn't mean a thing. Thats like saying the factory wasn't there first, so we should still do things by hand.
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19:17<Eddi|zuHause>where do you think i said that?
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19:17<Sidar>I mean design patterns are there to help with a problem. Its not there to be fancy
19:17<Eddi|zuHause>besides, 90% of the "patterns" are "glue" that try to bring two existing implementations together
19:17<Sidar>Well you say the pattern wasn't there first. What else are you implying?
19:17<__ln__>no, design patterns are there to describe how smart people have solved some particular types of problems.
19:18<Eddi|zuHause>that also means, you don't need 90% of the "patterns" when you design an application properly
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19:21<Sidar>"need" is ambiguous. And "properly" as well. But I digress. Enough programming for todat
19:21<Sidar>today*
19:23<__ln__>using 90% of the design patterns in one application doesn't make it good.
19:23<Sidar>Doesnt make sense either =P
19:24<Sidar>G2G bye
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19:35<Rhamphoryncus>I'm with Eddi. Techniques -> patterns of code -> design patterns. It's not the other way around
19:36<Rhamphoryncus>And techniques are very fluid
19:37<Rhamphoryncus>Is a linked list a design pattern? It's just a linked list implementation
19:38<Rhamphoryncus>"pattern" is merely a buzzword. A fad.
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