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#openttd IRC Logs for 2012-03-28

---Logopened Wed Mar 28 00:00:20 2012
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03:09<dihedral>greetings
03:10<dihedral><michi_cc> [28 Mar 2012 - 01:09:32] Most of the design pattern crowd seems to forget that there's more than just object oriented programming, and obviously OOP is always the best thing in the world (Java, I'm looking at you :) <- each and every language has its use... even erlang, perl, tcl ....
03:15<@planetmaker>..., whitespace, brainfuck, ...
03:16<blathijs>Those languages at least serve the purpose of making discussions like these more interesting ;-p
03:20<@planetmaker>:-) quite true
03:21<@planetmaker>++++++++++[>+++++++>++++++++++>+++>+<<<<-]>++.>+.+++++++..+++.>++.<<+++++++++++++++.>.+++.------.--------.>+.>.
03:30<xiong>I might have been interested in this interesting discussion if my connection had not been down and up for the last two weeks.
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03:51<dihedral>planetmaker, whitespace has its use: namely when you need to write an exam at school ... on paper! :-D
03:52<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: what's 65, 91, 98, 98, 101, 29, 80, 101, 104, 98, 90, 30, 9?
03:52<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause: I pasted the complete "Hello World" programme there
03:53<@planetmaker>or wiki is wrong ;-)
03:54<Eddi|zuHause>it's easily possible i miscalculated :)
03:54<Eddi|zuHause>but 29 and 30 don't seem right
03:54<Eddi|zuHause>not sure what 9 is
03:55<Eddi|zuHause>wouldn't that be tab?
03:56<@planetmaker>ascii 0x09 is tab iirc, yes
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04:47<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/brainfuck.py <-- seems to work correctly. i probably miscounted or something
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04:48<Eddi|zuHause>> python ~/brainfuck.py ~/helloworld.bf
04:48<Eddi|zuHause>Hello World!
04:48<Eddi|zuHause>beware: my loop implementation may be buggy
04:50<CornishPasty>What's your helloworld.bf look like Eddi|zuHause ?
04:50<Eddi|zuHause>i need to rethink my handling of while(0)
04:50<Eddi|zuHause>CornishPasty: from the wiki page. or what planetmaker posted above
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04:51<CornishPasty>Ah right lol
04:54<Eddi|zuHause>new version with hopefully improved loop behaviour
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04:57<@planetmaker>lol, Eddi|zuHause :-)
05:00*Rhamphoryncus thinks we should have a callback to change cargo ageing and payment.. then finds out they already exist
05:00<Eddi|zuHause>yah, i thought of that first :)
05:00<Rhamphoryncus>:)
05:00<Eddi|zuHause>(but i did not implement it)
05:00<Rhamphoryncus>Has anybody played with it yet?
05:01<Eddi|zuHause>not really. it's only few months old, no released newgrf uses it yet, afaik
05:01<Rhamphoryncus>ahh alright
05:01*Rhamphoryncus sees FIRS hacks in his future
05:02<Eddi|zuHause>variable cargo aging is a vehicle set feature, not an industry set feature
05:02<Rhamphoryncus>.. what?
05:02<Rhamphoryncus>Oh, it's for boats and such?
05:02<Eddi|zuHause>for example
05:03<@planetmaker>not quite true. OpenGFX+ Trains uses it for refrigerator wagons
05:03<Rhamphoryncus>ahh interesting
05:07<Rhamphoryncus>Well, the only reason I was considering cargo ageing was to extend the time I have to work with, but it's minor
05:07<Eddi|zuHause>reuploaded. now with license.
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05:25<CQ>is there a way to get signals for both directions on one square?
05:25<Nat_aS>???
05:25<Nat_aS>like you mean normal signals?
05:25<Nat_aS>or path signals?
05:26<Eddi|zuHause>CQ: you never ever want such a signal combination
05:29<CQ>i have a circular track, and am thinknig about having trains go both ways on it...
05:36<@planetmaker>I suggest you simply read up on the signal types
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05:39<CQ>planetmaker: I have, twice, and I still dont get it completely.
05:39<CQ>the signals always show if a path to the next stopping point is clear
05:40<CQ>at least the ones I'm using
05:40<@planetmaker>do they?
05:41<@planetmaker>I think they show whether the next block is clear or they show red
05:42<CQ>I thought block was stopping point, i.e. a signal or a station
05:42<Eddi|zuHause>CQ: so when you have two signals on the same tile, you will have trains waiting on both sides until the other side clears, which will never happen, because there are no switches inbetween
05:47<CQ>Eddi|zuHause: true... guess I need to rethink the design a little then,,,
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06:18<ffpp>hi, I need some advice: I have a data structure (GuiList) which contains const pointers. At some point I want to retrieve one of those and need to use and change the pointed-to-obj. So I did a cast to a non-const pointer of the same obj type (\n)
06:19<ffpp>... I just make a pastebin
06:24<ffpp>paste: http://paste.pocoo.org/show/572455/
06:25<ffpp>question: isn't this stupid as I modify the same object in both cases anyway ? Only the way to retrieve it has changed and this just tricks out the compiler warning
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06:35<Rhamphoryncus>Well, you shouldn't be casting away const, so..
06:35<ffpp>so what ? both ways are stupid ?
06:36<Rhamphoryncus>The second is slightly better, if uglier
06:37<Rhamphoryncus>"I never modify it, except in this one particular case.." is a deep problem with the const model
06:38<Rhamphoryncus>Off hand.. if you're storing a pointer it probably shouldn't be const. const works best for transient uses, ie you pass it to a function that doesn't modify it
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06:39<ffpp>in general it shouldn't be a semantic problem to modify templatevehicles, but in this one case I need to retrieve the tv to modify by looking at the selected index, so the 2nd way is just cleaner to retrieve it
06:40<ffpp>the general usage of openttd seems to be to store const pointers into the GuiList templates, thats why I went with it in the first place
06:41*Rhamphoryncus nods
06:41<Rhamphoryncus>I can't speak for openttd's style choices. I wasn't there when they happened :)
06:42<ffpp>Why not, rhamphoryncus sounds like a create which existed a long time ago :)
06:43<Rhamphoryncus>Well yes, but there was that pesky extinction in the middle while all the interesting stuff happened
06:44<ffpp>how come you're helping out right now, then ? jurassic park ?
06:44<Rhamphoryncus>Good question
06:45<@planetmaker>capability to fly helps with escapes ;-)
06:46<ffpp>I once knew all the queer dinosaur names - profession of choice then: 'dinosaur expert'. good times :)
06:47<ffpp>thanks btw, I'm going with the 2nd way then, seems to be feasible
06:47<Rhamphoryncus>huh, there's a usage of "queer" you don't hear much these days
06:47<@peter1138>how queer
06:48*peter1138 is also happy & gay
06:48<ffpp>I thought it means strange or something along that line, not gay
06:49<@peter1138>both words with multiple meanings, these days
06:50*V453000 is also beer
06:51<Rhamphoryncus>ffpp: that's the original meaning
06:52<ffpp>and it is at the top of the list in the dictionary
06:53<Rhamphoryncus>Yeah, but dictionaries don't reflect common usage ;)
06:53<Rhamphoryncus>The derogatory form became the dominant one, then more recently it's been reclaimed by the gay community
06:54<ffpp>in all english speaking countries or only GB or the US ?
06:57<Rhamphoryncus>I'm canadian so I'd say north america. I can't speak for GB
06:58<Rhamphoryncus>I'm pretty sure there's some of it there too, but I don't know how much
06:59<ffpp>hm, I actually learned the word on a north american sports forum, didn't seem like it was used with the gay meaning, maybe I got it wrong
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07:02<Rhamphoryncus>Unless there's a significant presence from the gay community I'd be surprised if it wasn't derogatory
07:04<ffpp>especially in sports talks
07:05<Rhamphoryncus>yeah
07:08<Eddi|zuHause>http://www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/brainfuck.py <-- i think my loop handling is finally correct now
07:11*Rhamphoryncus goes to look, then realizes the file name and decides not
07:16<Rhamphoryncus>although.. if notch can embed a language in his next game.. if I make a game I should embed brainfuck in it. Just to fuck with peoples' brains :)
07:18<ffpp>use it as ai-scripting language
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07:19<CornishPasty>How would that... I don't even
07:19<CornishPasty>We need a language that can compile down to bf
07:24<Rhamphoryncus>I figure that would happen eventually
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07:38<CQ>how do you get rid of an appaling rating in a town without bribing? I have one station there and can't build anything...
07:43<ffpp>plant lots of trees
07:43<ffpp>or deliver into or out of that town
07:45<@planetmaker>or just wait
07:45<CQ>I can't deliver since I have no stations there
07:46<@planetmaker>wait or plant trees. Only the firs tree planted on a tile counts.
07:46<@planetmaker>As you can't get worse, it might help to kill more trees in advance to this endeavour
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07:47<@planetmaker>but only tiles 15 tiles away from town centre count
07:47<@planetmaker>thus doens't work for large cities
07:48<CQ>ok, thanks ... does it make sense for vehicles to have the hangar / dock / depot in their route, or do they go automaticaly if servicing is needed?
07:48<Eddi|zuHause>yes and yes
07:49<Eddi|zuHause>if you put the depot in the orders, they will never try to go to a different depot
07:49<Eddi|zuHause>which may help with trains getting lost
07:49<ffpp>especially for trains, which can't just change direction at will it makes sense to have a depot along every (long) route
07:50<Eddi|zuHause>also, you may force the depot visit while the trains are empty then
07:50<Eddi|zuHause>so the cargo is delivered as fast as possible
08:05<Eddi|zuHause>http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=410631152299677&set=a.223098324386295.105971.205344452828349&type=1&ref=nf
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08:47<MNIM>"Step 1: Go to scripting website/room/ etc. Step 2: Pretend you're an air-headed, yet sexy blonde single 19 year old girl who is just so "desperate" to get the script working. Step 3: ???? Step 4: Profit!!!"
08:48<MNIM>you're a bunch of coders, right.
08:48<MNIM>would that work here?
08:48<MNIM>especially if "Will show booby pics if helped"
08:48<MNIM>I sincerely doubt it, but somebody said that works with coders. :P
08:50<Eddi|zuHause>MNIM: if you believe that, you'd also believe that there are actual lesbians in #lesbians
08:50<MNIM>lol
08:51<MNIM>wait, there's an actual channel #lesbians on this network?
08:52*MNIM checks
08:52<MNIM>...nope
08:52*MNIM baps.
09:04<dihedral>...
09:04<dihedral>interesting!
09:04<MNIM>what's interesting?
09:05<dihedral>do the pics sell? if they do, she can sell them and i'll take the cash :-D
09:05<dihedral>... for gpl released code :-D
09:05<MNIM>lol
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10:03<@Belugas>hello
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11:15<andythenorth>hello
11:16*andythenorth is all work and no play
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11:43*ffpp wants to use testing as excuse for playing but frequent changes to the saveload code prevent any longterm fun
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11:44*Rubidium wonders what he's missing
11:45<ffpp>only patch stuff :)
11:45<Rubidium>oh, but then it's your own fault ;)
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11:46<andythenorth>it's fun that such a massive hack to get 'stations over roads' is so popular :D
11:46<andythenorth>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=58884&start=100
11:48<V453000>oh, the cars can really drive on that?
11:49<ffpp>http://www.tt-forums.net/download/file.php?id=157898 << the things people build in this game ... so much attention to detail
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11:57<andythenorth>lo Pikka le bird
11:57<Pikka>lo bob
11:57<andythenorth>beebl
11:57<Pikka>how rare
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11:59<@Terkhen>hello
12:00<andythenorth>Pikka: so is it done?
12:00<andythenorth>mine aren't :|
12:00<Pikka>which?
12:00<Pikka>the road vehicles?
12:00<Pikka>not at all
12:00<andythenorth>what about the choo choos?
12:01<Pikka>yup, they're done
12:01<Pikka>and the nyow nyows
12:01<andythenorth>what about....the industries?
12:01<Pikka>nope
12:01<andythenorth>all the industry sets suck
12:01*andythenorth wants a new industry set
12:02<Pikka>people don't like my industry set much
12:02<Pikka>either the stockpiling sucks, or it doesn't have enough fancy new cargos
12:05<andythenorth>I like it
12:05<andythenorth>I just played it to death :P
12:05<andythenorth>mine is rubbish
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12:05<andythenorth>too big, too complicated, too unfinishe
12:06<@Belugas>thus...
12:06<@Belugas>+d
12:06<@Belugas>;)
12:06<TrueBrain>must ... not .. make .... easy .... " that's what she said " joke ....
12:07<andythenorth>also
12:07<andythenorth>http://dreamsongs.com/Files/PatternsOfSoftware.pdf
12:08<Pikka>andy: I'm considering a production feedback mechanism for mines
12:08<andythenorth>tell
12:08<Pikka>but probably just using goods rather than a special cargo
12:08<andythenorth>goods covers all sins
12:08<andythenorth>how about 'people' too? :P
12:09<Pikka>I haven't worked out the details yet :) but I definitely want to replace the standard random production changes mechanism and make it more interesting
12:09<Pikka>interesting for me, anyway
12:09<Pikka>:)
12:11<andythenorth>will it be evil?
12:11<@Belugas>evil is good
12:11-!-andythenorth is now known as bad_pikka
12:11<Pikka>I don't know
12:12<Pikka>"more predictable" probably isn't evil
12:12<@Belugas>evil always gives some spice to life :)
12:12<Pikka>industries suddenly halving production for no apparent reason is "evil", but also default behaviour and annoying
12:14<Pinkbeast>Part of the trouble here seems to be that the demand of every consumer is infinite, which ought to make those stockpiles work better...
12:14<Pikka>part of what trouble?
12:15<@planetmaker>welcome to "smooth economy". And also 'hello' :-)
12:15<Pinkbeast>Well, the way vanilla OTTD lets you route all the coal on the map to one power station on the other side of the world.
12:16<bad_pikka>why is that trouble?
12:16<bad_pikka>that is correct behaviour
12:20<bad_pikka>also...YACD has been updated to compile with recent trunk apparently ;)
12:20<jazzyjaffa>Yes :)
12:20-!-Zuu [~Zuu@h-114-141.a98.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #openttd
12:21<jazzyjaffa>Although I haven't fixed the subsidy bit yet.
12:22<Pikka>hmm
12:23<Pikka>I might do the calcutta and one futuristic plane in this release of av8, just so it balances out the 3-column vehicle list picture
12:23<Pikka>is that OCD?
12:24<Pikka>just the calcutta would do I think
12:24<Pikka>not that anyone will ever use it
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12:25<Pikka>I've often thought when making vehicle sets that I should just make the 5 biggest/most powerful vehicles and not bother with the rest, since that's all anyone ever uses.
12:30<bad_pikka>not OCD
12:30<bad_pikka>correct
12:30<bad_pikka>you also need to make one small one
12:30<bad_pikka>hmm
12:31<bad_pikka>maybe that's why HEQS is so relatively popular
12:31<bad_pikka>it just adds biggest possible truck for any year
12:31<Pikka>:]
12:31<bad_pikka>I've cut most of the small trucks from BANDIT :P
12:31<Pikka>well, the calcutta is not only very small, but it's a seaplane, so until newairports it's pretty useless.
12:32<bad_pikka>I'm leaving in the massive roadtrains which can be refitted to...smaller :P
12:32<Pikka>yay :P
12:32<Pikka>I can't imagine many people will want to play HQOVS without BANDIT
12:32<Pikka>"WHY ARE THERE NO TRUCKS UNTIL 1930?!?!"
12:32<bad_pikka>mine currently run out in 1963 or so :P
12:33<bad_pikka>I am awaiting canadian imports
12:33<Pikka>mm, canadian improts
12:33<bad_pikka>maple syrup?
12:33<Pikka>fancy
12:33*bad_pikka has been pondering food industry chain
12:33<V453000>I've often thought when making vehicle sets that I should just make the 5 biggest/most powerful vehicles and not bother with the rest, since that's all anyone ever uses. <- solution to that is to make every vehicle the strongest one in its era ;)
12:34<bad_pikka>oranges -> orange juice :P
12:34<bad_pikka>eggs -> custard
12:34<bad_pikka>blood -> black pudding
12:35-!-bad_pikka is now known as andythenorth
12:36<Pikka>blood + white bits -> black pudding
12:37<Pikka>V453000: exactly, that produces much the same result.
12:38<V453000>partially, it gives more vehicles that "everyone uses"
12:38<Pikka>if I left out all the aircraft in av8 which were not bigger than everything that came before, av8 would contain 8 vehicles
12:39<andythenorth>where do 'white bits' come from?
12:39<Pikka>from ripping yarns, andythenorth
12:39<+glx>polo
12:39<andythenorth>also 8 vehicles in av8 is pretty nice
12:39<+glx>oups wrong chan
12:39<andythenorth>no no
12:39<andythenorth>it made perfect sense in this context
12:40<andythenorth>input: sugar, holes; output: polo mints
12:40<Pikka>HP42, Constellation, Stratocruiser, Brittania, DC8, 747, A380 and JTech, that's "pretty nice"?
12:42<Pikka>but join any multiplayer server running av8 and I guarantee those are the only aircraft you'll see
12:42<@Belugas>burp
12:42<V453000>well Pikka you can reduce the power of those 5 or increase the power of the others
12:42<V453000>to get more effectively
12:42<Pinkbeast>ot the most powerful/fast available...
12:43<Pinkbeast>Oh, darn it
12:43*Pinkbeast used the UKRS1 0-6-0, 2-6-4T, 0-8-0 (after the 2-8-0), 4-6-0, Pacific, 2-8-0 (after the 9F), AL6, C321, 5AT all after they were not the most powerful/fast available.
12:43<Pikka>I'm not really complaining :) there are plenty of uses for the smaller aircraft
12:43<Pinkbeast>... but the OTTD mechanics do rather militate against it
12:43<Pikka>it all depends on other grfs used, playstyle, etc
12:43<Pikka>and cargo destinations will make a difference too
12:45<Pinkbeast>Most cargod?st schemes seem to give a role to light trains (for eg FIRS supplies) but ensure every passenger train/plane/RV will always be the hugest available.
12:45<V453000>yes, UKRS has the choices for player done the best way from all train newGRFs at the moment
12:46<jazzyjaffa>Pinkbeast: Isn't that partly due to the massive amount of pax that towns currently generate?
12:46<Pinkbeast>Well, it's not so massive if they only want to go on one trip (in a not-cargod?st world)
12:47<Pinkbeast>Oh, and the A4 even after the Merchant Navy from the addons set because bleh, Bulleid.
12:47<jazzyjaffa>I can see a role for smaller pax services if town pax production/growth is tweaked a bit - maybe some towns shouldn't grow (green belts? :D )
12:49<Pikka>TaI houses limit town growth, and I believe there are also gamescripts if you'd rather do it that way
12:49<jazzyjaffa>I'm doing some profiling of yacd to understand what's happening CPU usage wise. As always with this stuff the problem is that for detailed profiling you have to turn off inlining - but without inlining performance is different.
12:51<Rhamphoryncus>During the money maker phase picking a cheap aircraft can work well. That only lasts for 3 or 4 aircraft though
12:52<andythenorth>which makes more money, two 25t trucks, or one 50t truck? Assume total run / purchase cost is same
12:52<andythenorth>also speed, power
12:52<Rhamphoryncus>25t
12:52<Rhamphoryncus>Shorter period without one loading
12:53<andythenorth>but twice as many breakdowns...?
12:53<Rhamphoryncus>I'm guessing cargo doesn't age while the vehicle is loading, but I haven't verified it
12:53<Rhamphoryncus>What's a breakdown?
12:55<andythenorth>the first 25t delivery will arrive before the first 50t delivery
12:55<andythenorth>so break-even comes sooner
12:55<Pikka>Rhamphoryncus: if the cargo available is so little that a massive plane will spend a month each time waiting to pick up, then the smaller plane is clearly a better option. but of course, with normal OpenTTD town growth and a 2048* map, the supply of passengers is practically unlimited
12:55<andythenorth>so interest on debt is lower
12:56<Pikka>I only play 256* maps, and with a small number of low-growth towns, my aircraft fleet is mainly 737s and ERJs.
12:56<Rhamphoryncus>Shorter period without loading -> higher station rating -> higher volume -> more money
12:56<+michi_cc>jazzyjaffa: http://www.icosahedron.de/openttd/patches/YACD-gameloop.png
12:57<jazzyjaffa>michi_cc: Yeah I saw that, thats with inlining on right?
12:57<Rhamphoryncus>But if you mean 20 25t trucks vs 10 50t trucks then it's insignificant
12:57-!-Chris_Booth [~chatzilla@host86-158-149-6.range86-158.btcentralplus.com] has joined #openttd
12:57<jazzyjaffa>michi_cc: BTW, nice patch, really easy to understand what is going on.
12:58<Rhamphoryncus>Pikka: I mean literally the first 3 or 4 aircraft built in a game. After that you might as well switch to the 747 or whatever's best at the time
12:58<+michi_cc>I'm not totally sure, but I think yes. I also had one with inline disabled just in the Yapf part of YACD, but I think the image isn't from that.
12:58<andythenorth>is 10 50t trucks vs 1 500t truck significant?
12:58<Pikka>Rhamphoryncus: why, if your airports aren't producing enough passengers to fill a 747?
12:58-!-supermop [~daniel_er@rrcs-72-43-171-87.nyc.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: supermop]
12:58<Pikka>but I realise the way most people play openttd, supply of passengers is not an issue
12:59<Rhamphoryncus>a single truck is going to leave the station without anything loading
12:59<Rhamphoryncus>Pikka: well, maybe if you're focusing on pax the entire game
12:59<Rhamphoryncus>I usually focus on trains and throw in planes/boats/trucks just for flavour
13:00*andythenorth is fooling with an argument about continuous (single piece) flow versus largest possible batch size :P
13:00<andythenorth>unless you're a production geek, it might not be interesting :P
13:00<Pinkbeast>Rhamp: Well, there isn't much you can move with aircraft besides pax. Not nothing, but not a lot.
13:00<jazzyjaffa>michi_cc: My main thought is that the penalties due to waiting cargo are making the pf explore more of the network than is desirable. (although they are a needed part of the algorithm to make it work well)
13:01<Pikka>Pinkbeast: except anything
13:01<Pikka>especially with refitting orders
13:01<Rhamphoryncus>Pinkbeast: I've largely avoided pax lately, other than token efforts to pacify towns. Still haven't tried YACD
13:02<Pikka>I found in my latest test games that the B1900 is a very good for valuables connections
13:02<andythenorth>YACD rocks. It also eats battery, and has some unfortunate edge cases :D
13:02<Pikka>TaI towns also produce a lot of mail, so I find flying goods in and mail out quite profitable
13:03<+michi_cc>Many things make the PF slow, but ultimately A* is simply not the best algorithm for packet routing.
13:03<andythenorth>Pikka: refitting :o
13:03<Rhamphoryncus>Pikka: huh, haven't tried that
13:03<andythenorth>Pikka: are you sure you're not DHL?
13:03<Pikka>ja
13:04<Pikka>also, the A400 kicks serious cargo backside
13:04<Pikka>120 crates / 60t out of small airports at 480mph :)
13:04<jazzyjaffa>michi_cc: Yes, but I see why you started with this approach given the structure of the gameloop
13:05<Rhamphoryncus>Pikka: what other things could be used to give aircraft tradeoffs? Different cargo specialities? Flight speed vs airport density (all aircraft take the same space regardless of capacity)?
13:06<andythenorth>it's kind of the same as trucks: not a lot can be done
13:06<Pikka>newairports will make a big difference. it will be good to have granularity beyond "small" and "large"
13:07<Rhamphoryncus>I've been meaning to use more of the coal trucks
13:07<Pikka>at the moment, there's no airports you can operate a pc12 out of that you can't operate a 737 out of
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13:07<ffpp>"YACD rocks." << how is it compared to CargoDist, performance-wise and other ?
13:08<andythenorth>plane/airport situation is somewhat equivalent to truck/roadtypes situation
13:08<Rhamphoryncus>Pikka: and the ability to scale up the airport. Sufficient runways and you can pick flight speed over cargo capacity
13:08<Pikka>well, unlikely
13:09<Pikka>"speed vs capacity" isn't a thing in the real world any more than the "range vs capacity" that some people suggested
13:09<@Terkhen>ffpp: performance-wise I don't know; cargodist is updated and it uses distribution, YACD is outdated and uses destinations
13:09<Pikka>the biggest aircraft tend to be the fastest anyway, just like the biggest aircraft tend to have the longest range
13:10<Rhamphoryncus>Who cares about the real world? I want a fun game :P
13:10<Pikka>well, if you want to create a "fun" grf with illogical stats, no-one's stopping you.
13:11<Rhamphoryncus>So what's the real tradeoff? Cost, obviously, and having enough volume to justify the size?
13:11<Pikka>volume and airport capabilities
13:11<Chris_Booth>Rhamphoryncus: or just go nuts! make everything super small
13:11<andythenorth>and noise
13:11<andythenorth>runway length
13:11<Rhamphoryncus>Chris_Booth: flying hover bus? :D
13:12<Pikka>those both fall under "airport capabilites", andy :P
13:12<andythenorth>watching a 747 land on the airport in mauritius is interesting
13:12<andythenorth>it's pretty much 747 minimum length afaict
13:12<andythenorth>and relatively rolling
13:12<Rhamphoryncus>If you could expand an airport piecemeal then there wouldn't be such a strong push to upgrade to the biggest airport ASAP
13:12<andythenorth>you see the wings bounce a lot :P
13:13<Pikka>the way to combat the "push to upgrade" is to make the upgrade, usually, unneccessary, Rhamphoryncus
13:13<Pikka>which again comes down to town growth and map size
13:14<andythenorth>iirc, railroad tycoon pax would pay a premium for travelling in cool vehicles, e.g. streamlined etc
13:14<andythenorth>ottd has a very bad proxy for this in the 'vehicle age' station rating factor
13:14<Pikka>you can also adjust the cargo decay factor on the vehicles now, andy
13:15<andythenorth>...is also my thought :)
13:15<Rhamphoryncus>Upgrading is a pain. Level the area, bulldoze town buildings that encroached (hope there's no industries), check that the town isn't so pissed that you can't rebuild, modify all the orders temporarily so they skip this station, wait for it to clear, bulldoze, rebuild, restore orders
13:16<Rhamphoryncus>If you wait until it's needed, rather than when it's first available, it becomes that much harder
13:16<Pikka>my point is it should never be needed, Rhamphoryncus
13:16<Rhamphoryncus>Although the game I just played had "towns build roads" turned off, which was surprisingly nice
13:17<Rhamphoryncus>Pikka: So no growth?
13:17<Pikka>plenty of growth
13:18*andythenorth has considered patching so that the biggest airport is available at game start
13:18<andythenorth>solves the problem :P
13:18<Pikka>plenty of growth in the UK IRL, but you don't have a Heathrow in every Chipping Sodbury
13:18<Pikka>patch, andy? GRF
13:19<CornishPasty>Sodding Chipbury :P
13:19<andythenorth>Pikka: have you been to Chipping Sodbury? Pretty much like Heathrow
13:19<Rhamphoryncus>And real life has more than 8 aircraft
13:19<Pikka>there too
13:19<Pikka>so does av8, Rhamphoryncus
13:19<Rhamphoryncus>Not that get used
13:19<CornishPasty>HIYOOO
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13:20<Rhamphoryncus>I'm quoting you there. My experience is less than 8
13:20<Rhamphoryncus>Hrm. Possibly because I'm not using pax.
13:21*lobster tumbles into t'channel
13:21<Pikka>only, and we're back to the beginning again, because of 2048* maps with silly-sized towns
13:21<Pikka>tumble off, you.
13:21<lobster>are there any Russians or Russian-speaking people in here?
13:21<andythenorth>what are we chatting about again?
13:21*lobster slaps Pikka in the dangly parts
13:21<andythenorth>oh yes, players are annoying
13:22<Pikka>yes
13:22<andythenorth>but we need them
13:22<Pikka>only sometimes :)
13:23<andythenorth>also my truck set is still de-motivatingly broken :P
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13:24<MeanEYE>Hi there. Where can I find instructions on how to make a dedicated OpenTTD server without Xorg?
13:24<ffpp>Terkhen: I know the difference in their main ideas, but I never read anywhere how much of difference it makes gameplay-wise when the destinations demand transport rather than you initiating everything
13:25<andythenorth>all the difference
13:25<@Terkhen>for that you'll need to test it :)
13:25<andythenorth>it's significantly much better on average
13:25<ffpp>ahh, I knew it ;)
13:26<andythenorth>hmm
13:26<andythenorth>maybe I should rethink my truck classes
13:26<Pikka>what do you have at the moment?
13:27<andythenorth>express, normal, heavy duty, in a range of sizes
13:27<andythenorth>and also I'm trying to reflect real life model variation
13:27<Pikka>eep
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13:27<andythenorth>I could just simplify to: line-haul (big) and local (small)
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13:28<andythenorth>it does seem to be what the game needs: big and small
13:31<andythenorth>but also, because of drive-in stops, I have to duplicate a lot of sizes
13:32<andythenorth>I want BANDIT to offer articulated trucks, with variable number of trailers, because that interests me
13:32<Pikka>eh
13:32<Pikka>yes
13:32<andythenorth>but I also have to provide non-trailer trucks in a wide range of sizes
13:32<Pikka>well
13:32<Pikka>I don't see why
13:32<andythenorth>'have' is a removable word
13:32<Pikka>if people want "big", they have to go artic
13:32<andythenorth>or I put down BANDIT, and figure out rv-wagons
13:33<andythenorth>but I tried that once :(
13:33*andythenorth predicts further truck removal from BANDIT
13:33<Pikka>http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6030/5942587123_1966412a40_o.jpg
13:33<andythenorth>less 'too big'.
13:33<andythenorth>indeed
13:34<andythenorth>every home should have one
13:34<Pikka>yes
13:34<Pikka>it is fancy
13:34<Pikka>no-one will use it
13:34<Pikka>unless/until seaplaneports, at least
13:35<andythenorth>hmm
13:35<andythenorth>why is designing a ship set so easy? :P
13:36<Pikka>is it?
13:36<andythenorth>ships really just balance out, no problems, no hassles
13:36<andythenorth>or at least nobody tells me any problems with FISH :P
13:36<Pikka>everything is introduced in 1870
13:36<andythenorth>yeah that
13:36<andythenorth>file under 'unfinished'
13:36<Pikka>:)
13:36<andythenorth>designing is easy
13:36<andythenorth>drawing is not :P
13:37<andythenorth>seems also my CGI artist didn't know about dimetric, which is why lots of FISH ships just look wrong
13:37<andythenorth>but I'm not redrawing them again :P
13:39<Pikka>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Dornier_Seastar_Wolfgangsee.jpg ho ho dat registration
13:39<andythenorth>:)
13:40<andythenorth>btw, fancy 'upgrading' your Puffer to look like FISH style?
13:40<Pikka>how so? the FISH ships look okay to me...
13:40<Pikka>hmm possibly, what does it need?
13:40<Pikka>less black hull?
13:40<andythenorth>I tried putting it in, but scale and style don't really quite fit
13:40<andythenorth>hard to say more
13:40<andythenorth>I can't really explain FISH style, all I can say is DanMacK nailed it first time when he contributed :P
13:40<andythenorth>he's a good one that one
13:41<Pikka>well, I guess if the lighting is rendered differently, it might be hard to make it match
13:41<Pikka>I thought the fishies were all rendered?
13:41<Pikka>+drawn over, of course
13:41<Pikka>I never really cleaned up the puffer properly, I rendered it then lost interest
13:42<andythenorth>FISH is drawn over a lot, or from scratch
13:42<andythenorth>and quite a lot of chop+shut which works surprisingly well
13:43<Pikka>hmm
13:44<andythenorth>I've got a nice render of this waiting for paint: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Landing_Craft_Air_Cushion
13:44<andythenorth>and I started backdating the coasters to older models
13:45<andythenorth>Dan did one angle of an awesome 1870s coaster to taunt me with, then went silent :P
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: translators * r24077 /trunk/src/lang/ (latvian.txt romanian.txt vietnamese.txt):
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: latvian - 94 changes by Parastais
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: romanian - 2 changes by kkmic
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: vietnamese - 1 changes by nglekhoi
13:47<andythenorth>Pikka: view 7 here, first row http://hg.openttdcoop.org/fish/raw-file/7054993646ed/sprites/graphics/coaster_large_gen1.png
13:48<Pikka>hmm :)
13:49<andythenorth>if someone prodded me (i.e. with sprites), I could get FISH to 1.0.0, e.g. models change over time, and cargo support
13:49<Pikka>and pre-1870? ;)
13:49<andythenorth>meh
13:49<andythenorth>sails :P
13:49<andythenorth>although...
13:49<andythenorth>I had the idea to use one set of sails repeatedly
13:49<andythenorth>anyway - bathtime
13:50<Pikka>k
13:50<Pikka>sails are definitely a render job I reckon :)
13:50<ffpp>is it normal that I cannot click towns anymore with yacd ?
13:50<ffpp>the description at least says 'click town to see where cargo wants to go'
13:52<ffpp>and the town's names aren't displayed either
13:52<jazzyjaffa>ffpp: In the town view or station view?
13:53<ffpp>in the main view
13:53<Pikka>"town names displayed" in the option menu? D;
13:55<ffpp>Pikka, you mean the Town Names option in the game options ? its set to english, nothing else available though
13:55<jazzyjaffa>ffpp: YACD doesn't touch the code for displaying town names in the main view.
13:55<ffpp>strange
13:56<jazzyjaffa>ffpp: Click the cog - 'Town names displayed' should have a checkmark
13:57<ffpp>jazzyjaffa, thanks
13:57<jazzyjaffa>ffpp: http://i.imgur.com/X8MEL.png
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13:58<CQ>whats teh best way to upgrade to maglev, recall all trains, and then upgrade all at once?
13:58<jazzyjaffa>ffpp: np, this game has many places for settings ;)
13:58<ffpp>I'm playing this game for a couple of years and have never bothered to look below 'transparency options' as it seems ...
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13:59<jazzyjaffa>ffpp: "full animation" and "full detail" set to off makes fast-forward extra-fast-forward
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13:59<@Terkhen>CQ: I usually don't bother, I just send the old trains to a depot and build new ones
14:01<ffpp>jazzyjaffa, it does ;)
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14:37<CQ>can you transfer oil from a tanker to a train somehow?
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14:37<andythenorth>Pikka: sails could be placed on hulls by pixa, removing some of the tedium
14:38<Pikka>true that
14:38<andythenorth>sail + mast
14:38<andythenorth>also makes different sail states a bit less boring to do
14:38<andythenorth>which way does the wind go though? :P
14:38-!-mkv` [~Markavian@j616s.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
14:39<andythenorth>if you're done on UKRS and AV8, you need a new project right? :P
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14:39<Pikka>apart from my website, TaI and HQOUS, you mean? :)
14:40<Pinkbeast>What's a HQOUS, please?
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14:40<andythenorth>I'll draw you some TaI :P
14:40<Pinkbeast>andy: I'd love to see a prevailing wind so sailing ships have a unique flavour
14:40<andythenorth>buildings luxuriously only have one angle
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14:42<frosch123>CQ: http://wiki.openttd.org/Feeder_service
14:43<Pikka>road vehicles, Pinkbeast
14:43<Pikka>and no they don't, andy, not in TaI :)
14:43*Rhamphoryncus manages to lose another game in the first 5 minutes
14:44<Pikka>andy: I shouldn't think the wind direction will make much of a difference
14:45<Pikka>your ships will be of a size that they're mainly square rigged, you can't change the speed based on direction, and if we change the sail loading by direction people will just think it's a bug
14:46<Pinkbeast>Speed based on direction would be lovely, though (but even if it could be done in a grf, the pathfinder would have to be aware, etc...)
14:48<andythenorth>you can change the speed based on angle of rotation...
14:48<andythenorth>it's an 80+ var, I looked into it ;)
14:48<andythenorth>but it might be crappy
14:48<Pikka>yes, but you can't
14:48<andythenorth>oh
14:49<Pikka>the speed is cached, it will only be updated when the vehicle leaves the depot I'm guessing
14:49<andythenorth>ach
14:49<andythenorth>it changes when leaving stations
14:49<andythenorth>but yes
14:49<Eddi|zuHause>i think my mind is melting
14:50<Eddi|zuHause>i read "Pikkabeast" and was horribly confused...
14:50*Pinkbeast has the sudden urge to draw locomotives
14:50-!-andythenorth is now known as Eddi|zuPikka
14:53-!-Eddi|zuPikka is now known as andy|zuHause
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14:54-!-andydunord is now known as andythenorth
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14:55-!-andythenorth is now known as frosch234
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14:55<frosch123>wow, that highlighted me :o
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14:56<frosch123>that as well :p
14:56*quak should stop dicking around and get on with writing the 5 year plan
14:56-!-quak is now known as andythe5yearplan
14:56<frosch123>oh crap, that highlights me everytime you say something :s
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14:57<andythe5yearplan>if you change your nick to rv-wagons, that will highlight me every time :P
14:57*andythe5yearplan lives in hope, despite evidence
14:59-!-andythe5yearplan is now known as andythenorth
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15:11<@planetmaker>20:37 CQ: can you transfer oil from a tanker to a train somehow? <-- yes. Use transfer orders. And build a joint station with dock and tracks
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15:13<Rhamphoryncus>Also, trained monkeys. Covered in oil.
15:16<@planetmaker>sounds like tuna fish. just different
15:17<Eddi|zuHause>i've never seen trained tuna fish before
15:17-!-mkv` [~Markavian@j616s.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
15:17<Eddi|zuHause>not sure i've ever seen an actual tuna fish anyway
15:18<@planetmaker>on TV I did. But there's a variety of different tuna fish
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15:20<supermop>i've seen them for sale in tsukiji market
15:20<supermop>quite big
15:20<@planetmaker>yeah. and tasty ;-)
15:21<Eddi|zuHause>i have no idea how it tastes
15:22<Eddi|zuHause>when i eat fish, it's usually herring
15:22<@planetmaker>you never ate tuna fish? Not even canned?
15:23<Eddi|zuHause>if i did, i forgot
15:25<telanus>I've seen a tuna, once at the harbour. it was a small tuna
15:27<Pinkbeast>Or as part of sushi. Mmm, sushi.
15:27-!-Nat_aS is now known as rv-wagons
15:28-!-rv-wagons is now known as CHIPS
15:28-!-CHIPS is now known as CHIPS-is-taken
15:28-!-CHIPS-is-taken is now known as Nat_aS
15:29*Rhamphoryncus ♥ chips
15:30<andythenorth>more CHIPS soon
15:30<Rhamphoryncus>What sort of more? :D
15:31-!-Chris_Booth [~chatzilla@host86-158-149-6.range86-158.btcentralplus.com] has joined #openttd
15:31<andythenorth>few extra features
15:31<Rhamphoryncus>Although I should qualify that and say I mostly just use the platforms and blank tiles. The misc buildings rarely get use
15:31<andythenorth>not a big update, more of a nibble
15:34<Rhamphoryncus>But for such simple things the platforms have a surprising amount of interest
15:35<Pinkbeast>Well, being able to plunk down a reasonable-looking station without agonising over it is no bad thing...
15:35<Pikka>there we go
15:35<Pikka>http://www.pruplethingz.com/junk/boeing747.png
15:36<Pinkbeast>Errr interesting filename
15:37<Rhamphoryncus>I use a ton of other station grfs too, but since CHIPS provides cargo waiting for pickup stations..
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15:41<andythenorth>definitely looks like a 7forty7
15:46<frosch123>night
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15:58<CQ>can any of the futuristic planes land on helipads or just the copters?
15:59<Achilleshiel>just copters
15:59<Pikka>if they could land on helipads, then they'd be helicopters by definition
16:02<Eddi|zuHause>zeppelins can land on helipads :)
16:02<Pikka>zeppelins are helicopters!
16:03<Pikka>as far as openttd is concerned, anyway ;)
16:03<Eddi|zuHause>(that should probably be fixed with newairports)
16:03<Pikka>yes
16:04<Eddi|zuHause>("landing type IDs" -> "PLAN", "HELI", "ZEPP", "SEAP", ...)
16:04<Pikka>planetables
16:04<Rubidium>CRSH!
16:04<Pikka>planet ables
16:04<Eddi|zuHause>probably the runway length should be encoded in there as well
16:05<Eddi|zuHause>i.e. "small plane" and "large plane"
16:05<Pikka>yes
16:06<Pikka>plane type tables and var-2 based statemachines which can send aircraft to different places based on variables including the plane type
16:06<andythenorth>what is this newairports of speak you which?
16:06<Pikka>it isn't
16:06<Pikka>well
16:06<andythenorth>speaking not of it
16:06<Pikka>it is about 50%
16:06<andythenorth>I even have a grf here
16:07<Eddi|zuHause>everything is done. except the interesting parts :p
16:07<Pikka>and then people lost interest and/or gave up :)
16:07<andythenorth>a wind turbine where your helicopter can land
16:07<andythenorth>and also an industry airport
16:07-!-Wolf01 [~wolf01@host205-58-dynamic.25-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #openttd
16:07<Wolf01>hello
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16:10<Pikka>av8ports is in a state, I never even finished planning out what airports I would make
16:11<Pikka>but really what I should do is draw them all and code it and release the grf
16:11<Pikka>a new set of airports, all unusable :)
16:11<Pikka>that might be a bit more of a spur to newairports getting completed
16:12<Pikka>so many things to do, so little time. my holiday ends april 1st too...
16:12<andythenorth>uh oh
16:12<Pikka>I have to start finding things to do that make money then :[
16:13<Eddi|zuHause>money is overrated
16:13<Rubidium>maybe you can work on p1sim ;
16:13-!-supermop [~daniel_er@rrcs-72-43-171-87.nyc.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: supermop]
16:13<Pikka>it's a point of view, Eddi|zuHause
16:13<Pikka>of course Rubidium
16:14<Pikka>p1sim is going to be the next minecraft and I'll make millions
16:14<andythenorth>€8.99 per download
16:14*Pinkbeast read his design document; I'm awfully glad I don't live in the world of P1SIM, leaving the house between 0400 and 0600 and returning from work between 2000 and 2200 in a city where everyone owns a stinking car
16:14-!-tx [~rxtx@ovpn83222.hs-esslingen.de] has joined #openttd
16:15<Pikka>except, of course, if p1sim was going to be the next minecraft it would have started making millions about a year and a half ago
16:15<Eddi|zuHause>everybody knows that free-to-play with payable addon-content is the new model of making money on the internet
16:15<andythenorth>newgrf authors win
16:15<Pikka>no, eddi
16:15<tx>hi, is there a way to reduce simulation speed?
16:15<Rubidium>I'm sure it'll make millions
16:15<Pikka>it's the new model of trying to make money on the internet :)
16:15<andythenorth>how much % do you want Rubidium for owning the store? :P
16:15<Rubidium>... of characters of pre-development documentation
16:15*andythenorth makes money on the internet
16:16<Eddi|zuHause>tx: only the pause button
16:16<andythenorth>having customers who pay for stuff is the magic secret
16:16<Eddi|zuHause>(or the F1 key, respectively)
16:16<andythenorth>to get that you make stuff people want
16:17<andythenorth>having a price helps
16:17<andythenorth>you know...capitalism and crap
16:17<tx>Eddi|zuHause: that's fine for local, but on a dedicated server, it runs with around 100years/day that's way to fast
16:17<Eddi|zuHause>you're right. don't give people what they need. only give them what they want.
16:17<Pinkbeast>Ah, you want a daylength multiplier patch, tx
16:18<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: I actually learnt that the hard way :P
16:18<andythenorth>but you can subtract 'only'
16:18<Prof_Frink>Eddi|zuHause: No, don't give them what they want, give them what they ask for.
16:18<tx>Pinkbeast: If it can slow down this thing yes :)
16:19<Eddi|zuHause>Prof_Frink: that's for the really advanced people :)
16:19<andythenorth>that's nice on day rates, with time and materials :P
16:19<andythenorth>I wouldn't recommend it for products
16:19<andythenorth>or fixed fee contracting
16:19<tx>Pinkbeast: will it be needed on every client or is the server enough?
16:20<Pinkbeast>I don't know, I'm afraid.
16:20<andythenorth>if you get paid on whether the thing actually works, then you actually do give the customer what they need
16:22<Prof_Frink>Thankfully we get paid on whether we've shown the thing *should* work.
16:23<@planetmaker>tx: a dedixated server runs the same speed as other openttd. except fast-forward (single player only) and pausing there's no speed setting anywhere
16:23<andythenorth>how interesting
16:24<andythenorth>do you poke it with a sharp stick and say "she'll probably do" ?
16:24<tx>planetmaker: so independent of hardware two clients always have the same speed?
16:24<@planetmaker>yes
16:24<@planetmaker>unless hardware is too slow to maintain the fixed speed
16:25<Pinkbeast>Errr surely tx is asking about daylength not ticks-per-real-second
16:25<@planetmaker>yes, he is
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16:25<@planetmaker>most probably. And I'm saying: err_no_such_setting
16:26<tx>planetmaker, Pinkbeast thx for the answer then maybe i have to use another way like pausing after the last client disconnects
16:26<Pinkbeast>Surely one can run a dedicated server with a daylength patch on it?
16:26<@planetmaker>tx: learn to use min_active_client
16:27<@planetmaker>Pinkbeast: surely that's not possible unless you patch it and give the same patch to all clients
16:27<Nat_aS>changing daylenght wont change the speed things move right?
16:27<@planetmaker>that depends
16:27<Nat_aS>just the date and prices?
16:27<@planetmaker>that depends
16:27<tx>planetmaker: yeah that was what i'm going to use thanks
16:28<Pinkbeast>planetmaker: Well, yes. But that is not impossible. And it would be one approach to tx's problem.
16:28<Nat_aS>because I think the date progresses too fast but trains go too slowly
16:28<Prof_Frink>andythenorth: No, we carefully avoid making anything and just play with computers.
16:28<tx>i hoped for a way to slow down days without modifying the clients
16:28<@planetmaker>Pinkbeast: quite inconvenient, if you want to setup a server though.
16:28-!-FLHerne [~francis_h@dsl-217-155-24-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #openttd
16:28<@planetmaker>no player will be able to connect unless he als gets a custom build
16:28<andythenorth>Prof_Frink: you're simulating atomic weapons?
16:30<Prof_Frink>andythenorth: No, but we have done some work on weapon delivery systems.
16:30<Prof_Frink>I've also done some work on bomb-disposal robots, so it's all balanced.
16:31<andythenorth>so sharp sticks are involved :P
16:31<andythenorth>but they go 'bang'
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16:32<tx>thx and gn8
16:33<Prof_Frink>It's slightly diconcerting that on a multi-million-pound aircraft you can have the instruction "Poke it with a stick and wiggle it about until it fits".
16:34<andythenorth>you work at EADS? :P
16:35<Prof_Frink>No, this was for Rolls. But I've told you too much. I'll have to kill you now.
16:36<andythenorth>poke it with a mop from chipping sodbury
16:37<Prof_Frink>The company we were working with on this project is based just up the road from Chipping Sodbury.
16:37<Prof_Frink>It's an Aerospace company. In Yate.
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16:38<andythenorth>no mops in Yate
16:38<andythenorth>or sharp sticks
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16:38<Eddi|zuHause>do they produce Yate Hogans?
16:39<Eddi|zuHause>(or what were they called again?)
16:39<__ln__>Haugan
16:39<Eddi|zuHause>(man i clearly haven't played with original vehicles in years)
16:39<andythenorth>probably named after Yate
16:40<Eddi|zuHause>most vehicles are named after people who appear in the credits
16:41<andythenorth>some are UK place names
16:41<Prof_Frink>Or places near MicroProse's head office.
16:43<Eddi|zuHause>i never understood why they changed the names anyway... they were "correct" in the original TT. the "mangled" names only appeared in the world editor
16:44<andythenorth>didn't want to get sued probably
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16:53<@Terkhen>good night
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18:02<__ln__>Wolf01: pre-emptive 'night
18:02<Wolf01>lol
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18:29<Wolf01>'night all
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19:34<DDR>So at this point, Mike has to pour his Fireball on her to put her out, but then she says "That wasn't my dog"! XD
19:34<DDR>oops, wrong channel.
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---Logclosed Thu Mar 29 00:00:23 2012