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#openttd IRC Logs for 2012-03-29

---Logopened Thu Mar 29 00:00:23 2012
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05:00<GBerten2936>#Bend it, bend it, just a little bit. And take it easy, show you're likin' it.
05:01-!-GBerten2936 is now known as lugo
05:01<lugo>ah well andythenorth isn't here anyways..
05:01*lugo stops singing
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06:09<@Terkhen>hello :)
06:10<Eddi|zuHause>why does a program (that ran before (long ago)) say that msxml4 is not installed, but winetricks says it is installed?
06:11<Rhamphoryncus>ahoy
06:12<Rhamphoryncus>different wine configs?
06:12<Eddi|zuHause>i gave the proper WINEPREFIX
06:12<Eddi|zuHause>both times
06:12<Eddi|zuHause>and i checked, winetricks does give different results when leaving it out
06:13<Eddi|zuHause>but there doesn't seem to be a "force" option
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06:26<MNIM>I dunno, eddi, but in my personal experience wine is a roulette.
06:26<MNIM>one day it works, the other day it doesn't.
06:30<Eddi|zuHause>i find it quite rare that something stops working, after it worked once
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06:30<MNIM>muh. every day experience to me.
06:30<Rhamphoryncus>My success rate with wine is probably.. 25%?
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06:32<@Terkhen>I had some success, but it was my 0% success rate with new game releases what drove me back
06:35<Rhamphoryncus>Usually it's ones that are listed as working too
06:37<Eddi|zuHause>that may depend on graphics card and stuff
06:38<Rhamphoryncus>Could very well
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06:39<Eddi|zuHause>and most problems are (still) due to copy protection mechanisms failing
06:41<Eddi|zuHause>maybe i just try installing it again
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06:47<Eddi|zuHause>"cool" ... the installer fails also :)
06:48<Eddi|zuHause>err:msi:ITERATE_Actions Execution halted, action L"ISVerifyScriptingRuntime" returned 1603
06:49<Eddi|zuHause>whatever that means
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06:53<Peping>Hello, if I want to create a new disaster object, like Zeppelin or so, using NewGRF, what feature do I specify it as?
06:54<Eddi|zuHause>i don't think you can specify new disasters via newgrf
06:54<Peping>I thought it should be FEAT_OBJECTS but I'm not so sure.
06:54<Peping>really?
06:54<Eddi|zuHause>FEAT_OBJECTS is for lighthouses and stuff
06:55<Peping>I know... And that's my other question. Can these move around?
06:55<Eddi|zuHause>no
06:55<Peping>alright. Thanks.
06:55<Eddi|zuHause>you can animate them, but only within the tiles you placed them on
06:57<__ln__>so there is something newgrfs can't do?!?!
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08:02<@planetmaker>Peping, most probably the "correct" way to implement new disasters might be via game scripts. Though it might need extension on the source code side of OpenTTD, too
08:03<Eddi|zuHause>but you can't bundle graphics with a game script
08:04<Eddi|zuHause>(maybe game scripts could force-activate a grf?)
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08:10<@planetmaker>you can't. But iirc you can on bananas set respective dependencies. If that works (I didn't quite test that), a force-selection (or disabling the game script in the NewGRF's absence) would be an option.
08:10<@planetmaker>probably rather the latter
08:12<Eddi|zuHause>it would definitely need GUI support to activate the grf when selecting the game script, and to tell people that removing the grf will deactivate the game script
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08:12<Eddi|zuHause>just a bananas dependency won't work
08:13<Eddi|zuHause>and an action14 entry to hide the GRF from the general public
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08:24<@planetmaker>yes, such support would make sense. though I think it can work without, oo
08:24<@planetmaker>*too
08:27<CIA-1>OpenTTD: michi_cc * r24078 /trunk/src/ (pbs.cpp train_cmd.cpp): -Fix [FS#5093,FS#5130] (r24071): A fix that breaks all other cases isn't really a fix. Redo it to make sure that reservations of trains entering or exiting depots are properly made and freed.
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09:02<Peping_>Any ideas where to get started on Game Scripts?
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09:10<Eddi|zuHause>the wiki, i suppose
09:11<@planetmaker>or one of the existing projects on the DevZone
09:12<Peping>I found Wiki very vague. It took me some time to realize that NoGO is a synonym for Game Scripts. Found this: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=57431
09:12<@planetmaker>OpenTTD has a history of nice acronyms :-)
09:13<@planetmaker>the API is documented at nogo.openttd.org
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09:29<@Belugas>hello
09:34<SpComb>yags
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10:35<ffpp>does anyone who plays pax games and cargo dist actually use buses and trams inside of towns ?
10:35<SpComb>yes
10:36<ffpp>is there a trick to it to not get the roads crowded like stupid ? ^^
10:36<SpComb>use big trams
10:36<SpComb>and keep your level of service down enough that you don't get too many pax at your stations :)
10:37<ffpp>even with those I had only limited success, maybe it's me
10:37<ffpp>since I discovered 2cc metros I tend to demolish a line of road through the city and just send in some metros, they usually do the job, but it looks ugly
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10:44<ffpp>btw, how do you keep the service level down on stations ?
10:45<SpComb>provide bad service :P
10:47<ffpp>when I tried that (implicitly) I just had people piling up on the station and the whole network got less efficient due to the wait times I think
10:47<@planetmaker>(big) trams often server a good purpose
10:48<@planetmaker>like those from the Japanese set. Or also the generic tram set
10:48<@planetmaker>s/server/serve/g
10:48<@planetmaker>and use many of them
10:48<SpComb>but of course, some people hacked their openttd to generate fewer passengers..
10:49<@planetmaker>even some people hacked openttd to implement destinations or distribution of cargo ;-)
10:50<@planetmaker>'fewer people' could probably be achieved by using an appropriate house NewGRF
10:53<ffpp>well, the issue only came up since cargodist for me ;) since then my roads have been regularly stuffed with RVs
10:53<ffpp>I just wanted to know if I'm the only one ^^
10:53<Eddi|zuHause>well, without cargodist you never were interested whether hundreds of people piled up at the station
10:54<ffpp>true
10:54<Eddi|zuHause>congestion of lines should probably have feedback on station rating
10:56<ffpp>yes, and over the course of time this should generate less passengers
10:58<ffpp>one expirement once was: send huge local trains (7 tiles or so) around the town in two circles, one clock-wise and one ccw, but then the loading times of the trains where so long that the whole system still collapsed
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11:07<Eddi|zuHause>in my yacd game (http://www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/Loisachkirchen%20Transport,%205.%20Nov%201988.png 12MB) i just barely managed to get the passengers transported
11:10<SpComb>it's fairly impossible with the steam trains unless you flatten the entire map
11:10<SpComb>but if you limit town growth, then it becomes manageable once you get modern trains (dbsetxl)
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11:12<ffpp>I'm using ukrs2 at the moment, starting 1850 but also with very small towns
11:13<ffpp>eddi, is this 128 x 512 mapsize ?
11:13<Eddi|zuHause>i think it was 256x512
11:13<Eddi|zuHause>or 128x256
11:13<Eddi|zuHause>more than 1:2 ratio makes the terrain generator look bad
11:13*ffpp measures at screen with hand
11:14<ffpp>256x512 seems fitting
11:16<Eddi|zuHause>lets see if i have a version which can load this game...
11:16<ffpp>how many stops are included in one cycle of a bus ?
11:17<Eddi|zuHause>yacd/loisachkirchen_r22434.diff that sounds right...
11:17<keky___>oi
11:17<Eddi|zuHause>hey that actually worked
11:22<__ln__>http://www.b.dk/billedeserier/her-er-den-oedelagte-togbro-i-limfjorden
11:22<Eddi|zuHause>ffpp: of a few random lines, my longest seems to be 7 stations (from end to end, so 12 in a roundtrip)
11:24<ffpp>I'm surprised this is working so well ;) but it has been a while since I played a game with really large towns
11:24<Eddi|zuHause>__ln__: "JavaScript and ActiveX must be enabled to view the image gallery"
11:24<SpComb>we need an extended .psav savegame format that bundles the diff against trunk with the savegame data :)
11:25<Eddi|zuHause>ffpp: the trams are manageable. the trains are struggling
11:25<__ln__>Eddi|zuHause: lol
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11:26<Eddi|zuHause>ffpp: the longer the line, the less of an issue is the loading time, actually
11:27<ffpp>wrt to trams ?
11:27<ffpp>-to
11:28<ffpp>it takes less of a portion out of the overall travel time I guess
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11:30<Eddi|zuHause>ffpp: key element is to timetable the trams so they do not bunch up
11:31<Eddi|zuHause>ffpp: planes are near hopeless
11:31<ffpp>the automatic timetable and separation patch was a blessing for that
11:32<ffpp>and yes, planes seem to spend large portions of time blocking each other on airports, as I remember them at least
11:35<jazzyjaffa>Eddi|zuHause: Is that save available? I'd like a large comlex net like that for testing some performance changes to yacd
11:35<Eddi|zuHause>jazzyjaffa: i can give you the game and the patch
11:36<Eddi|zuHause>jazzyjaffa: it's a slightly modified yacd 1.1
11:36<jazzyjaffa>Eddi|zuHause: Ah ok, thanks. Would still be useful.
11:36<Eddi|zuHause>(some backported yacd 2.x patches)
11:36<jazzyjaffa>Eddi|zuHause: Yeah I can hack it to get it loaded
11:37<ffpp>would one need many newgrfs to load it properly ?
11:39<+michi_cc>jazzyjaffa: http://www.icosahedron.de/openttd/patches/yacd_testgame.sav together with http://www.icosahedron.de/openttd/git/yacd.git/shortlog/refs/heads/yacd_temp (close to 2.3 with a few modifications and fixes).
11:40<+michi_cc>Some NewGRFs aren't on bananas, but the coop pack should have them.
11:41<jazzyjaffa>michi_cc: Nice, thanks. So far I was just using a few AI's, but that doesn't make for good nets.
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12:07<ffpp>is there a way to retrieve what newgrfs are used by a savegame ?
12:07<ffpp>never mind ...
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12:10<@planetmaker>:-)
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12:32<Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: I made you some damnest lies (in the chilpp thread)
12:35<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: it's not that simple. some things were backported from trunk
12:36<Rubidium>but anywhere near the magnitude as the rest of the changes?
12:42<Eddi|zuHause>i don't think so
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13:11<Eddi|zuHause>Assertion failed at line 1867 of /home/johannes/spiele/OpenTTD/yacd/src/vehicle.cpp: this->IsGroundVehicle()
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13:13<@planetmaker>sounds like something fixed already?
13:13<Eddi|zuHause>quite possibly...
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13:16<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: was that just a guess or do you have any information about that?
13:16<Eddi|zuHause>like the bug report, or the fixing commit
13:16<Eddi|zuHause>or whether this is a trunk bug or a yacd bug
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13:18<Eddi|zuHause>note: when this happened, i just rerouted some aircraft from one airport to another
13:18<@planetmaker>I seem to recall seeing this assertion. Thus it must have occured before
13:19<@planetmaker>But I can't give you a rev which fixed it
13:19<@planetmaker>(or actually whether it was in trunk indeed)
13:20<Eddi|zuHause>it definitely doesn't appear in the channel logs
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13:23<@planetmaker>I also tend to read all bug entries on flyspray ;-) But that has no convenient way to be searched for anything like this
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13:26<Eddi|zuHause>http://bugs.openttd.org/task/4624 that seems close enough to be relevant
13:27<Eddi|zuHause>r22492 seems easy enough to "backport" then
13:27<@planetmaker>indeed
13:29<@planetmaker>makes it sadly visible how old yacd already is.
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13:33<Eddi|zuHause>similar calculation as chillpp applies here :)
13:35<@planetmaker>yeah...
13:37<ffpp>you should have put it into trunk as long as it was still hot :)
13:37<ffpp>but that is probably easier said than done
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13:39<@planetmaker>would have been easy.
13:39<@planetmaker>And slowed down OpenTTD considerably
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13:39<Matulla>Hi question will the area of a town expend as the town growes or will it stay as the beginning
13:40<@planetmaker>it will grow, too
13:40<Matulla>Thanks
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13:41<Wolf01>evening
13:41<Matulla>isent there a cheed or tool that markes the tiles of the town s
13:44<+michi_cc>Simply bringing YACD up to current trunk isn't hard, the parts it's interacting with didn't change much. I just don't see a point without any real improvments, and that's waiting on me having sufficiently long free time.
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13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: translators * r24079 /trunk/src/lang/ (french.txt latvian.txt polish.txt):
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: french - 1 changes by OliTTD
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: latvian - 7 changes by Parastais
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: polish - 1 changes by wojteks86
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13:46<Eddi|zuHause>having destinations makes it really easy to do multi-terminal airports :)
13:46<@planetmaker>:-)
13:47<ffpp>would have been easy. << had every patch of the pack been reviewed already ?
13:47<Nat_aS>having destinations makes moving passingers worthwhile
13:48<@planetmaker>ffpp, yes
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14:05<Eddi|zuHause>GermanRV seriously needs to balance length vs. capacity
14:05<Eddi|zuHause>i replaced a tram with a more modern tram with the same capacity. but it's longer, so fewer fit into a station. now my entire network deadlocked
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14:07<oskari89>Why there's some places where some vehicles have 100% loaded, but aren't going anywhere, intresting..
14:07<oskari89>(Has a lan game with his wife here) ):
14:07<oskari89>*:)
14:08<oskari89>Just stuck on that "loading" stage..
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14:08<@Alberth>time table?
14:08<oskari89>Whoops.
14:09<oskari89>Shared orders...
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14:09<oskari89>How to cancel all timetables from shared orders?
14:10<@Alberth>no idea, does the wiki tell ?
14:10<oskari89>Oh, i see...
14:11<oskari89>No problem anymore :P
14:12*Alberth likes people self-solving their problems :p
14:12<Nat_aS>Eddi|zuHause that sounds really bad, most of the time vehicles get more capacity for the same/less length over time.
14:13<Eddi|zuHause>Nat_aS: the problem of GermanRV is that it sticks quite literally to the "realistic" capacity, but the vehicle lengths don't match.
14:14<Eddi|zuHause>Nat_aS: in one instance, two vehicles have the same "realistic" length, but the ingame length is twice
14:14<Nat_aS>that can be a problem with "realistic" sets
14:14<V453000>realism :-D
14:14<Nat_aS>they are rarely balanced, and often important quirks cannot be modeled.
14:15<Nat_aS>This new train is super expensive but statisticly worse than other trans, in real life it's price is justified by some fancy gimic that has no baring on a video game.
14:16<Nat_aS>i kind of noticed that in the North american pack, although you could probably fudge features like "Enviromentaly friendly" as lower operating costs and reduced breakdowns.
14:17<oskari89>Nah, sometimes it's good to have realistic capacities, such as in Finnish Trainset MU:s..
14:17<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause, the size / passenger ratio might be "realistic" though :-)
14:17<Nat_aS>MUs?
14:17<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: no, it's not
14:18<oskari89>http://users.tt-forums.net/finnish/table/ftselectric.html and http://users.tt-forums.net/finnish/table/ftsdiesel.html
14:18<Nat_aS>I do like gimics like faster loading, steam power units, and mandatory cabooses.
14:19<Nat_aS>but I don't think it's a good idea to base train stats 100% on real life, it's better to make a set where all the trains can be potentially profitable
14:19<oskari89>Some stations in certain cities have extraordinary busy passenger stats, so no problem..
14:19<Nat_aS>lol yes
14:19<Nat_aS>passinger boom can make anything draw a profit
14:20<Nat_aS>I actualy use the red devil from tropic refurbishment set for inner city passenger service
14:20<Nat_aS>on the same line as Electrics
14:20<Nat_aS>:V
14:20<Nat_aS>and imagine it as a musiem piece.
14:20<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: it's one of the reasons i decided that CETS should not modify capacity over time, and to not base anything on "realistic" capacities, but use pure length/capacity ratio
14:20<Nat_aS>(I think even then it's too expensive)
14:21<Nat_aS>i actualy do think it's fun to have one or two "I dare you to try to find an instance where you can use this" engines.
14:21<Nat_aS>because how cool it is when you do.
14:23<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause, yeah, probably good choice. Realistic capacities make little sense
14:25<Nat_aS>well it make sense for capacity to increse over time
14:25<Nat_aS>but that should mean trains getting shorter.
14:25<Nat_aS>not longer
14:25<Nat_aS>and not by much
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14:57<Eddi|zuHause>Nat_aS: the only net capacity increase will be the introduction of commuter/metro trains
14:57<Eddi|zuHause>Nat_aS: other than that you have the choice between slow/high capacity and fast/low capacity trains
14:58<Eddi|zuHause>Nat_aS: only speed will increase over time, not capacity
14:58<Eddi|zuHause>(that's of course completely different for freight wagons)
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15:08<Nat_aS>i was talking about freight waggons
15:08<Nat_aS>passinger trains are limited by type
15:08<Nat_aS>like double decker and metro trains will increase capacity at cost of speed.
15:09<Nat_aS>but normal passinger cars ought to stay the same by lenght
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15:19<Eddi|zuHause>Nat_aS: freight wagons are depending mainly on axle weight
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15:23<Nat_aS>which does improve over time yes?
15:24<Eddi|zuHause>yes
15:24<Eddi|zuHause>and that is also roughly oriented along the real capacities
15:26<Eddi|zuHause>man, i have no idea how i can fit another transrapid track onto this map...
15:26<Nat_aS>screenshot?
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15:31<Eddi|zuHause>http://www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/Loisachkirchen%20Transport,%205.%20Nov%201988.png <-- 12MB (earlier version)
15:32<Eddi|zuHause>i have a transrapid from Wiedhus Airport to Wörnitzkirchen Airport
15:33<Eddi|zuHause>but i need another one from Wiedhus to Loisachkirchen
15:33<Eddi|zuHause>which is kinda diagonal, so placing tunnels is problematic
15:33<Eddi|zuHause>especially with a large enough curve radius
15:33<Nat_aS>Dem boats
15:34<Nat_aS>Dem Islands
15:34<Eddi|zuHause>and bridges are not fast enough
15:34<Nat_aS>Dem multi-platform stations
15:36<Nat_aS>so what part of the map?
15:37-!-oskari89 [~oskari89@213-186-253-165.bb.dnainternet.fi] has quit []
15:37<Eddi|zuHause>from the left to the center
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15:37<Eddi|zuHause>center/right
15:38<frosch123>if you cannot build a diagonal track
15:38<Eddi|zuHause>preferably without lowering any mountain top :)
15:38<frosch123>then build a rectangular connection
15:39<frosch123>it will only take around 1.4 times longer
15:39<Nat_aS>found it
15:39<frosch123>resp. 0.4
15:40<Nat_aS>Hmm, yeah the inproved speed of transrapids would make the ineficency of a rectangular route less of a problem
15:40<Nat_aS>and it could have more stops
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15:41<Nat_aS>i love the land reclamation airports
15:41<goodger>Eddi|zuHause: what grf is supplying those trees?
15:42<Nat_aS>that brick factory in the far upper right,
15:42<Nat_aS>it's so lonely
15:42<Eddi|zuHause>it's called "treesw.grf" which is a modified variant of "stolentreesw.grf"
15:42<Nat_aS>hidden away in a valley, with no connections to anything
15:42<Nat_aS>so third hand trees?
15:43<goodger>ta
15:43<Nat_aS>connect that brick factory to something
15:43<Nat_aS>it's so lonely
15:44<Nat_aS>or what is it?
15:44<Nat_aS>a textile mill?
15:44<Eddi|zuHause>indeed
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15:45<Nat_aS>wow the station at Havelkirchen is intresting
15:45<Nat_aS>made me doubletake
15:46<Nat_aS>trains go under it
15:46<Eddi|zuHause>what do you mean?
15:47<Nat_aS>Havelkirchen is not importent enough for the main line to stop at it?
15:47<Nat_aS>there is a tunnel under the station
15:47<Nat_aS>small town outside of Wiedhus
15:49<Nat_aS>it seems the station is only for grain, passinger trains bypass it entirely
15:49<Eddi|zuHause>oh that one you mean. that's an industry station
15:49<Eddi|zuHause>it serves the farm
15:49<Nat_aS>oh that's not even a whole town
15:49<Nat_aS>it's just a suburb of another town
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15:50<Nat_aS>dispite being in it's own valley
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15:58<Eddi|zuHause>yes. but nothing of that answers the question :)
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16:17<Nat_aS>how to expand your transrapid?
16:17<Nat_aS>i don't know, you are a tighter network designer than I
16:17<Nat_aS>but this is a nice map
16:18<Nat_aS>hilly enough to be chalanging, but with flat areas so you can actualy build things.
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16:28<Eddi|zuHause>i don't usually build this tight. but i wanted to have a small map so i could quickly play a full game
16:29<Eddi|zuHause>but because of the sheer amount of passengers, i neglected the industry part
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16:31<supermop>hi
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17:27<@Terkhen>good night
17:28<Wolf01>'night
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---Logclosed Fri Mar 30 00:00:25 2012