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#openttd IRC Logs for 2012-03-30

---Logopened Fri Mar 30 00:00:25 2012
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03:09<@Terkhen>good morning
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03:22<oskari89>Eddi|zuHause: Were you using some kind of railset with different type of rails here:,%205.%20Nov%201988.png
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03:47<CQ>is there any way to get buses to run automatically? once the cities get bigger I don't want to bother reconfiguring each route... I'd rather jsut add buses and stations and let them run
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03:53<@planetmaker>There's no automatisation for re-configuring routes.
03:53<@planetmaker>you're the transport manager after all. You decide how and when and where to expand
03:53<CQ>I was hoping one of the AIs would do something like that
03:54<@planetmaker>A "play me" button won't be added to the game
03:54<@planetmaker>AIs are competition. Not co-worker
03:54<CQ>no, obviously, but I was thinking alongthe lines of something that when the game gets huge you move from route and vehicle mgmt to fleet management
03:54<@planetmaker>you know shared orders?
03:56<CQ>ah, no, hadn't seent hat yet.
03:56<@planetmaker>there you got your fleet management
03:57<@planetmaker>use it as soon as two vehicles drive the same route :-)
03:57<CQ>also, I tried to upgrade fromelectric to maglev, and it would be very nice if the trains in the depots could be auto-converted along with the depot... otherwise its a TON of work (unless I'm missing something else... :)
03:59<Eddi|zuHause><oskari89> Eddi|zuHause: Were you using some kind of railset with different type of rails here <- that is an older version of nutracks
03:59<oskari89>Okay, thanks for information..
04:00<CQ>even with the TIps listed here its still a lot of work to put 20 trains back together...
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05:37<Eddi|zuHause>so... what's wrong when i can't reach a website from home, but can reach it from university?
05:38<Eddi|zuHause>and all other websites (so far) work as well
05:39<__ln__>i bet you didn't try *all* others
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05:40<ffpp>quick gameplay question: I a train has multiple engines, does that increase the change for a breakdown or does only the primary engine count ?
05:43<Eddi|zuHause>__ln__: i did try all others that i tried.
05:45<__ln__>it could also be because your isp is not paying $$$ to the isp of the website you are trying to reach.
05:45<__ln__>i don't think that's common but has actually happened.
05:47<Eddi|zuHause>ffpp: i believe only the primary engine counts
05:52<ffpp>ok, because that might actually make a difference sometimes
05:52<Eddi|zuHause>ffpp: there's an improved breakdown patch, but i never tested it
05:53<ffpp>yes, it sounds quite interesting but I believe its not up with the current revisions IIRC
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06:52<ffpp>hm, does anybody else think it would be useful to have a 'wait until [50%,75%] load' order ?
06:53<Eddi|zuHause>i once thought of a solution for that: there are already conditional orders, the only thing it needs is to evaluate the next order before leaving the station, and staying if it is the same
06:53<lugo>there was a patch for that
06:54<Eddi|zuHause>so the order list looks like "1: goto A, 2: if load < 50% jump to 1, 3: goto B"
06:55<Eddi|zuHause>currently the vehicle would leave the station and come back
06:55<Eddi|zuHause>and this should be suppressed
06:56<ffpp>the question is, do you want to tie this condition to a specific value like 50% or have it be just 'non-empty cargo'
06:57<ffpp>yes, looks like what Eddi described, and it is not even *that* old
07:00<Eddi|zuHause>ffpp: there are already lots of conditional orders. no need to "tie" anything
07:02<Eddi|zuHause>you don't need conditional orders at all, could also be like "1: goto A (no loading) wait for 10 days, 2: goto A (loading), 3: goto B (no loading) wait for 10 days, 4: goto B (loading)
07:02<Eddi|zuHause>to avoid cargo getting old while you schedule buffer times
07:03<ffpp>ah ok, I just tried it, I never used conditional orders before
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07:19<ffpp>hm, the patch didn't
07:19<ffpp>... -.-
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07:24<ffpp>I wanted to say that the patch didn't work put I accidently applied it to my dev-directory, not my playing-directory
07:24<ffpp>but it didn't work on the current trunk anyways
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07:53<oskari892>Damn licencing...
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08:03<oskari892>I decide to release everything i've drawn to GPL.
08:04<oskari892>Hmm, but this: would be nice to have as ECS Nuclear vector...
08:05<oskari892>Sprites, of course, a little corrected :P
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08:07<Eddi|zuHause>oskari892: evary time a "nuclear chain" has been discussed, it was discarded on the ground that you'd only transport like 1 container every year
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08:10<oskari892>On the other hand, it's very heavy stuff... :P
08:13<oskari892>But i understand that reason..
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08:44<oskari892>ECS Machinery vector hasn't got Bauxite mine yet?
08:48<@planetmaker>possibly. I don't know about the release state, but Bauxite mines are very new
08:52<@planetmaker>so the question is whether you have ECS 1.2 :-)
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08:53<@planetmaker>in any case those are very tasty sprites
08:55<oskari892>Hmm, i don't have...
08:55<oskari892>It's not available at his site:
08:55<oskari892>1.1.2 is latest one of Construction vector..
08:55<@planetmaker>first thing you always should try is possibly bananananas
08:55<oskari892>There and Bananas too..
08:55<@planetmaker>but dunno
08:56<oskari892>Haven't seen one in a screenshot..
08:57<oskari892>(Or isn't it released yet?) :P
08:59<oskari892>There they are..
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09:16<andythenorth>lo Belugas
09:17<@Belugas>sir andythenorth :)
09:19<oskari892>Is there any chart from FIRS, like this ECS?
09:19<oskari892>Would help to put proper cargos to wagons :P
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09:20<andythenorth>various have been made
09:21<andythenorth>I don't know if there's a good up-to-date one
09:22<oskari892>With cargo ID:s included would be best :P
09:25<Eddi|zuHause>if you're interested in the IDs, why do you need a chart?
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09:32<Eddi|zuHause>oh... kay... i just pressed ^B and everything stopped, openttd using 100% cpu...
09:34<@planetmaker>sounds like "you should never reach this state", Eddi|zuHause
09:35<Eddi|zuHause>gdb says Blitter:DrawLine, called by GfxDrawLineUnscaled
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09:56<__ln__>what to do when you accidentally park your vehicle at the bottom of the sea:
09:58<Eddi|zuHause>is that broken into the ice?
09:59<__ln__>yes, the vehicle had sunk through the ice earlier and was at the depth of 8 metres.
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10:00<Eddi|zuHause>sounds unhealthy
10:01<__ln__>the driver escaped in time, but could be the engine needs some maintenance before startup.
10:03<oskari892>V453000: Thx
10:03<oskari892>IMHO FIRS Fertilizer plant should be more like this:
10:06<oskari892>Cargo names are missing from that... Other than that good..
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10:36<Pulec>what the terrain type line in config?
10:36<Pulec>i cant find it in [game_creation]
10:39<V453000>you mean this ? landscape = temperate
10:39<V453000>ah the mountainous stuff
10:41<V453000>ah, Pulec: it is in [difficulty]
10:41<V453000>terrain_type = 3 for mountainous
10:42<V453000>water quantity seems to be there as well
10:47<Pulec>mountains! yes
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10:56<andythenorth>'make choo choo'
10:57<Rhamphoryncus>__ln__: "could be"? :P
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11:09<andythenorth>So for 1.3....? - remove 'disable elrails'
11:09<andythenorth>- add 'roadtypes'
11:10<andythenorth>- ship
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11:21<LordAro>hey all
11:21<ISA>as I were guided here, I still have a question :)
11:22<oskari892>Is there some tracking table on 2cc trainset?
11:22<oskari892>And are sprites gpl?
11:22<ISA>industries and possible ways to code them, anyone familiar with industries code?
11:24<ISA>seems not atm... so Ill be back later in the evening or tomorrow
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11:36<bolli>hello all
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11:38<bolli>is there an issue with
11:38<bolli>i'm getting an error when trying to clone it
11:38<LordAro>works in browser (mostly meaningless, i know)
11:39<bolli>i get: fatal: not found: did you run git update-server-info on the server?
11:40<andythenorth>ISA should have stuck around :P
11:42<bolli>any ideas? :/
11:46<oskari892>Hmm, 2cc set is GPL:ed, so Finnish trainset can freely copy and modify those sprites?
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11:47<@Terkhen>as long as you comply with the license, yes
11:47<@Terkhen>bolli: no idea sorry, I don't know how to use git
11:48<oskari892>Ok, Finnish Trainset is GPL..
11:49*andythenorth ponders
11:49<andythenorth>when I use GPL sprites from another set I don't also ensure I get the sources
11:49<andythenorth>GPL violation :P
11:50<V453000>you mean like if you just copied them from the game but not from the psd/whatever other src file?
11:51<andythenorth>or from decompiled grf
11:51<oskari892>From here :P
11:51<andythenorth>or spritesheet from another set
11:52<Eddi|zuHause>we certainly need a way to display summary messages...
11:52<V453000>can you only use the source files or? .o
11:52<Eddi|zuHause>it's not funny working through 200 "vehicle is getting old" messages
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11:52<@planetmaker>quite true
11:52<oskari892>Only sprites.
11:54<oskari892>Where you can find the sources for those (stupid question)
11:54<@planetmaker>andythenorth: GPL only requires your preferred form to modify. If it is the png in that case, just supplying that is sufficient
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11:58<bolli>i think that the git repository is properly buggered...
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12:05<bolli>now i'm getting fatal: Could not switch to '': No such file or directory
12:05<bolli>anybody got any ideas about that one?
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12:07<jazzyjaffa>bolli: I've just done a fresh clone right now and it worked fine
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12:08<jazzyjaffa>bolli: I used git clone
12:08<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: lots of other things i could think of :)
12:08<Eddi|zuHause>(for 1.3)
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12:10<bolli>that worked
12:10<bolli>i didn't have the http:// in there
12:13<oskari892>Where there is Eurosprinter ES64?
12:13<Eddi|zuHause>need some brilliant thought how to connect A to B:,%2025.%20Feb%202015.png
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12:18<Eddi|zuHause>oskari892: check the nfo/nml, grep for ES64, look which .png file is linked there?
12:22<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: small goals - for 1.3 :)
12:22<andythenorth>we got a lot in 1.2
12:22<Eddi|zuHause>yes, we did
12:23<andythenorth>also your screenshot uses an absymal version of FIRS
12:23<oskari892>Found, thx :)
12:23<andythenorth>you have the hideous furniture factory graphics
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12:23<Eddi|zuHause>it also uses an abysmal version of YACD :p
12:23<oskari892>Is Siemens Vectron planned to include?
12:23<andythenorth>YACD for 1.4 :P
12:24<andythenorth>if roadtypes is the only big feature in 1.3 I'd be happy ;)
12:24<Eddi|zuHause>oskari892: how should we know?
12:24<andythenorth>but....roadtypes might depend on extended map ;)
12:24<Eddi|zuHause>i wish i had some way to have parallel tunnels end on different tiles (i.e. tunnels through slopes)
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12:30<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: +1
12:30<andythenorth>doesn't that require custom bridgeheads or something?
12:30<andythenorth>it's primarily just a graphical issue though?
12:30<andythenorth>the blocker is a suitable set of portal graphics?
12:31<Eddi|zuHause>no. you must store the foundation in the map
12:31<Eddi|zuHause>otherwise drawing them would require too much CPU power
12:31<andythenorth>I figured it wouldn't be simple :P
12:32<andythenorth>it's annoying when building multi-track routes
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12:33<andythenorth>so for 1.3: tunnels can end on complex slopes?
12:34<Eddi|zuHause>better totally freeform tunnels/bridges construction
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12:36<andythenorth>can't see any downsides ;)
12:36<andythenorth>what about building over tunnel entrances though?
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12:37<FlyingFoX>hi, which distances are counted, when the price for cargo is calculated? Only the distance from the station where the cargo is first picked up to where it is delivered or does the distance get counted over all stations in between where the cargo is only transfered?
12:37<FlyingFoX>I tried to find that on the wiki
12:37<FlyingFoX>but couldn't figure it out
12:38<Pulec>does distance from a loading station have a difference?
12:39<andythenorth>isn't it manhattan distance between first and last stations?
12:39<andythenorth>wiki does know
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12:41<Eddi|zuHause>FlyingFoX: only from the first to the last station
12:41<Eddi|zuHause>FlyingFoX: more precisely, from the location of the station sign
12:44<Eddi|zuHause>,%201.%20Maer%202015.png <- that's as close as i can get. i have a decent flyover, but the curve is too narrow for my taste. but i can't terraform under this oil well anymore
12:55<andythenorth>demolish the oil well
12:55<oskari892>One thing that bothers me, that bridges can't be built over station tiles :P
12:55<Eddi|zuHause>now for that station...
12:56<andythenorth>oskari892: it's technically possible, but wouldn't work graphically
12:56<Pulec>guys, mountains are bad :D
12:57<oskari892>Yes, bridges just overlayed on top of station tiles..
12:57<andythenorth>consider SAC's station here:
12:57<oskari892>Of cource, just plain platforms under that, nothing too high :P
12:58<andythenorth>so the issue is how to ensure 'just plain platforms' ;)
12:58<andythenorth>there's no sane method discovered so far
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12:59<oskari892>Would it be left to user :)
13:01<supermop>cant objects/sprites have a height?
13:02<supermop>and then bridges then have a maximum height they can be built over?
13:04<oskari892>And ships too :P
13:05<oskari892>That would open possibility for lifting bridges :P
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13:06<andythenorth>supermop: ok, so now provide extra error messages to handle 'station too high'
13:07<andythenorth>but possibly tmwftlb
13:07<andythenorth>sprites do have a height (the bounding box).... assuming that's set correctly by the newgrf author :P
13:08<Eddi|zuHause>i need multistop docks...
13:08<andythenorth>me too
13:08<andythenorth>let's code them
13:08<andythenorth>oh if only it were all newgrf :P
13:08<andythenorth>"let's code them" is a valid thing for me to say about newgrfs
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13:40*andythenorth chases BANDITs
13:40<andythenorth>time for a redesign :P
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13:43<V453000>reconsidered to draw by hand andy? :D
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: translators * r24080 /trunk/src/lang/ (7 files): (log message trimmed)
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: german - 2 changes by Jogio
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: irish - 38 changes by tem
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: italian - 1 changes by Snail_
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: latvian - 44 changes by Parastais
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: polish - 4 changes by Kilian
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13:59<andythenorth>V453000: more like drawing a line through a lot of truck models
13:59<andythenorth>smaller sets = better
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14:02<Wolf01>is there anybody from london in this channel? I need somebody to restart a VPS manually if it does shut down again (and with restart I mean: go there, slap the customer support and let them do the work)
14:02<andythenorth>you can probably rent someone in London to do that...
14:02<andythenorth>most things are available ;)
14:04<Wolf01>already 5 shutdowns this month :E
14:04<Wolf01>4 of them without causes
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14:04<Eddi|zuHause>hm... timetabling so that there won't be interruptions at the junction is crazy...
14:05<Wolf01>do you use plain junctions?
14:05<Eddi|zuHause>no, a flyover junction in this case. but they still "collide" at the join
14:06<andythenorth>one line per train ;)
14:06<andythenorth>much easier
14:06<Wolf01>resolving it with timetables might be a hard challenge
14:06<Eddi|zuHause>don't have the space :)
14:07<Eddi|zuHause>actually, it should be quite easy. just have to get the trains to the right positions so they won't already start delayed, screwing up the whole plan...
14:07<V453000>let trains pre-accelerate into the junction
14:07<Wolf01>it will last for a month
14:07<Eddi|zuHause>two lines, 10 trains in total, roundrip synchronized at 40 days
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14:08<Eddi|zuHause>makes a train every 4 days
14:10*andythenorth moves all the logging trucks and dump trucks to HEQS :P
14:10<@Alberth>that's hard work :)
14:11<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: what do you transport bulk cargo with then, without loading HEQS?
14:12<Wolf01>HEQS is really good, I love those immense dump trucks
14:12<Eddi|zuHause>speaking of HEQS, i think the industrial tram wagons are too narrow in | direction
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14:18<Wolf01>all is too narrow in | direction
14:19<Wolf01>as it's too wide in --- direction
14:20<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: you use the normal trucks for bulk cargo
14:20<andythenorth>there's no gain to adding more types
14:20<andythenorth>makes no difference in gameplay
14:20*andythenorth bbl
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14:53<oskari892>Something on that film, reminds me of the Saint :)
14:55<oskari892>Maybe it's the music :P
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15:30*andythenorth cuts 46 trucks down to 22
15:35<@Alberth>drastic measures this evening :)
15:39*andythenorth had a revelation
15:40<Rubidium>if a route needs that many trucks you're better off with ships ;)
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15:45<Eddi|zuHause>i hate when that happens
15:47<Eddi|zuHause>some bug in either kaffeine or the video driver drags the whole x server with it
15:48<andythenorth>truck types in game are dictated by drive-through and drive-in, not by real life types, or kinds of cargo :P
15:50<Eddi|zuHause>i probably asked this before, but what's the linux equivalent of "keyb gr"?
15:50<andythenorth>did I post my redesigned interface?
15:50<Eddi|zuHause>yes. and i didn't get it the last time either
15:51<andythenorth>you lack a toddler
15:52<andythenorth>here's what you need:
15:59<frosch123>hmm, suddenly ctrl drag signal does no longer work...
16:02<frosch123>ah, there is a hidden trackbit too much behind a foundation :p
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16:12<andythenorth>the downside of my new approach is that pretty much all trucks carry all cargos
16:12<andythenorth>there's no 'this truck carries only express cargos' or such
16:14<Nat_aS>is it possible to make industries or houses that produce passengers when they receive them?
16:14<Nat_aS>to model tourism destinations and offices
16:14<Nat_aS>so passengers will commute too and from them.
16:14<frosch123>andythenorth: you should at least have open and closed stuff
16:15<frosch123>and tankers
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16:15<andythenorth>that's just graphics
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16:16<frosch123>by what else should they differ?
16:16<frosch123>speed and power?
16:16<andythenorth>yes, they vary by those 2 dimensions
16:16<andythenorth>and capacity
16:16<andythenorth>that's all really
16:17<frosch123>speed is basically the same for everything, isn't it?
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16:17<andythenorth>per-generation yes
16:17<andythenorth>although RL trucks are geared to the duty cycle they are expected to work
16:17<andythenorth>so low or high ratios
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17:11<andythenorth>what should default cargo type be for trucks?
17:12*andythenorth learns how an ignore file works
17:14<andythenorth>Goods then
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17:19<@Terkhen>good night
17:19<Chris_Booth>how many woods could a wood chuck, chuck if a wood chuck could chuck wood?
17:21<Rubidium>but Chuck is no more :(
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17:43<GT>Question of the day: will 32bpp artists ever be able to cooperate with ottd devs and vv?
17:49<oskari892>When they are out of their anger, yes.
17:50<oskari892>They are still angry because of png loading dropped out :P
17:51<GT>the devs or the artists?
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17:53<oskari892>That caused all their work to be partly redone :P
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17:53<oskari892>They have to be coded.
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17:53<GT>I know, I am the upper whiner, fka GeekToo
17:55<GT>But I sense a growing level of frustration on both sides, and that really is a shame
17:55<GT>cause ez 32bpp zoom in trunk really is a great feature, we all should cherish
17:56<GT>Well, maybe not all, but certainly the group that liked the Ez-patch
18:00<GT>I think the anger is gone (justified or not), at least for me. So we have to deal with the new situation, convert tars to grfs.
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18:10<GT>But that leads to new conflict immediately, about the format of the extra zoom ground sprites.
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18:13<GT>A real good example of people not really communicating, but each camp telling their own story, without responding to the other side.
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18:18<GT>Devs seem to think: what is the problem, you are lazy, just convert to the new format of grf's, we'll even provide a script for you, so why don't ya start, bunch of whiners. And the artists are concerned about graphics quality, and think: I am not going to mutilate my sprites to these jagged edges. Discussion continues, devs are annoyed and call artists lazy, or propose to remove ez completely. What a waste of energy, the only problem is the lack of c
18:18<V453000>idk, I dont quite understand why would there be some conflict :) I draw in 8bpp without any extra zoom or extra rotations, and I am just happy. On the other hand I think it will look amazing when a 32bpp ez and eventually extra rotations full set is complete
18:20<V453000>or are there any actual _requirements_ on artists? I dont think there are, artists can just choose from more options now
18:20<GT>Sure, it will look amazing, or not, depends on your personal taste. I really think that when devs and artists would start to cooperate, amazing things would be possible.
18:21<V453000>well they kind of do? Devs provide possibilities, people use them. 32bpp is in every developed set now I heard
18:21<V453000>dont know about ez
18:21<V453000>I think that is a good cooperation already
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18:24<GT>No, I don't think so. There really are a lot of sprites available for EZ, but they will not be accepted for OGFX. That may have good reasons, but artists have worries about the graphics quality, and devs don't really respond to the worries, just keep repeating: this is the format we can offer, stick to it, ignoring the worries of the artists
18:25<V453000>well, start a new base set?
18:25<V453000>base set is just a big newGRF if you take it simply
18:26<V453000>ofc OpenGFX is a bit more linked to OpenTTD, but still
18:26<V453000>nobody prevents you from starting your own
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18:29<GT>Of course that would be possible. But in my opinion the best situation would be to cooperate on the best possible set for OTTD, not fight each other. Devs and artists should complement, not fight.
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18:30<V453000>that is like if I came to some train set author and told him I want my sprites in his set, even though the sprites are inappropriate for that set
18:30<V453000>he will reject them as well of course
18:31<V453000>if isnt just accept anything
18:31<+michi_cc>OpenGFX puts the principles of "do not glitch" and "compatibility with existing content" very high. This together with technical limitations that can't be changed by just modifying a few code lines leads to some restrictions.
18:31<V453000>so well, if you feel like you have a different idea and want to do something else, make your own stuff
18:31<+michi_cc>Nothing stops someone interested from developing a base set with different top principles.
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18:32<V453000>restrictions, sure, but still, OpenGFX has some style in which it is drawn. I personally do not like it, so if I wanted to improve it, I would probably start a different project instead. Nothing about fighting, just adding another content
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18:33<V453000>just because bringing a different style in it would be disruptive
18:38<GT>@michi_cc: and of course you are right about the glitches, and I completely agree: there should not be glitches in trunk graphics. But there are several ways to solve that problem, and every proposition seems to be completely ignored. I proposed to allow a limited overlap of sprites, to the extend of the jaggedness of the upscaled sprites. I think you would agree that would solve the problem too, without having to change the code?
18:42<+michi_cc>GT: OpenTTD redraws only what changed and not the whole screen (as that would be too slow), so you do not know which of the overlapping sprites will be on top and which at the bottom.
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18:45<GT>nonsense, the ground sprites are drawn in increasing order in x first, and then in y. Then the sprites with a foundation etc are drawn, and than the rest of the sprites, in an order determined b
18:46<GT>the bounding box
18:46<GT>Marking the section as dirty is at another level of the hierarchy
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18:49<GT>And the overlapping I proposed is limited to the jaggedness of the upscaled sprites, so it is present for every old newgrf without ez-zoom sprites already
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19:12<GT>I quot myself: But there are several ways to solve that problem, and every proposition seems to be completely ignored
19:13<GT>And it is getting kind of quiet all of a sudden
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19:17<GT>I don't know if the proposition does not introduce new problems, but it would not need code change, and experimenting would be possible without code changes
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---Logclosed Sat Mar 31 00:00:33 2012