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#openttd IRC Logs for 2012-04-02

---Logopened Mon Apr 02 00:00:28 2012
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02:30<@Terkhen>good morning
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04:31<Ammler>is it possible to get the reason why loading a language file does fail, how does openttd check and invalidate it?
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04:33<Ammler>are you 100% sure, language files are noarch?
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04:38<@peter1138>what arch are you on?
04:39<__ln__>peteris: stop annoying Peer
04:41<peteris>__ln__, sorry, my router went berserk again, did a restet :(
04:41<peteris>t.i. reset
04:41<Pikka>admiralty, peter1138
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04:45<@peter1138>quite so
04:45<Ammler>peter1138: I never have this issue, just a user is complaining about it which I can't reproduce, so I wonder, how can I get him to provide more info
04:46<@peter1138>Ammler, if your user can't provide more info, most likely they're not going to be affected by arch issues
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04:48<Ammler>peter1138: well, his bugreport contains the debug output that language files fail (
04:54<@peter1138>ah cos you split it off cos it's noarch
04:57<Ammler>yeah, I wonder, if that could be an issue, but then I wonder why I am not able to reproduce it on my 64 and 32bit boxes
04:59<@peter1138>only if there's somehow a version mismatch
05:01<Ammler>is it possible to read the version from the lang file or how does openttd know, it is mismatch?
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05:03<@peter1138>no idea
05:04<Ammler>I splitted lang files to noarch packages since ever and never got issues with that
05:04<Ammler>so I think it is something else, but the guy has an strange version anyway, maybe that resolves itself...
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06:32<Eddi|zuHause>err... today's xkcd is... buggy...
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07:29<Eddi|zuHause>you know what i hate? that usb plugs are asymmetric
07:31<drac_boy>eddi well the bottom two pins are not same as the upper two pins so you can't just simply want to flip the cable connector :p
07:34<Eddi|zuHause>yes, but it _could_ be designed to allow that (i.e. make 8 pins, the upper 4 in reverse of the lower 4. that makes it agnostic to rotation)
07:35<drac_boy>that would result in a wide thin connector which isn't what I think you want to'll probably snap more easily with the repeative uses
07:36<Eddi|zuHause>you can make them in two layers, doesn't have to be in one row.
07:37<drac_boy>thats then going into reducency cost overrun and eventually someone would stop producing the 5th through 8th pin just because its still the same function
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07:49<drac_boy>just wondering but I assume that any town building id can be used in any climate meaning its possible to have 40+ different buildings in one climate if you had wanted to do that?
07:56<Eddi|zuHause>Elukka: that's basically exactly what happens every time :)
07:57<Eddi|zuHause>drac_boy: you can have 256 ids in every climate
07:57<Eddi|zuHause>you are _not_ restricted to the original IDs, nor to the original climate availability
07:57<drac_boy>ah heh ok thats a lot of building variety
07:57<drac_boy>thanks, wasn't sure since the wiki didn't quite say much
07:58<Eddi|zuHause>technically you can have 512 buildings, but you need two separate grfs then
07:59<drac_boy>so how does the id work for more than 100 buildings?
08:00<Eddi|zuHause>IDs are hexadecimal
08:00<Eddi|zuHause>00 to FF
08:03<drac_boy>so it'll go up to 9Fh then after that its AAh?
08:04<Eddi|zuHause>just use the escapes for decimal numbers, if you don't understand what hexadecimal is :)
08:04<Eddi|zuHause>(or if you use NML, just write the decimal number)
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08:06<drac_boy>heh no nml for me, thanks still :P
08:07<drac_boy>btw I hadn't known that the house ids went from numeric to alphabet for the first digit at first, now I do I guess :)
08:17<@peter1138>new word for hexadecimal: "numeric to alphabet"
08:21<drac_boy>yeah yeah
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08:28<drac_boy>anyway need to do a few other things this morning but humm I'll see if I have any other little newgrf questions when I'm back or not :-)
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08:31<@peter1138>hmm, so why is opengfx broken, or is it intentional?
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12:01<Longtomjr>Hi all
12:01<@Terkhen>hi Longtomjr
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12:48<andythenorth>so apparently we need marketing?
12:48<CornishPasty>What's that?
12:51<SpComb>should market for more technical users who can contribute :)
12:52<andythenorth>by increasing the total userbase, that would probably happen as some % of new users will be technical
12:52<andythenorth>but meh
12:52*andythenorth wonders why 'popularity' is automatically assumed to be desirable
12:54<Rubidium>too bad you'll first have to educate people, and I reckon there'll be a massive flood of the same question asked over and over again
12:55<andythenorth>so you won't be buying google ads with your overflowing bank balance?
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12:58<appe>< andythenorth> so apparently we need marketing?
12:58<appe>as in, openttd?
12:59<@Terkhen>yeah, paying adds, facebook pages and so on
12:59<@Terkhen>as if we got paid for download or something
13:00<Rubidium>and then trying to claim that paying for ads pays itself by increased ad revenue
13:00<Rubidium>like the ad revenue is that good
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13:00<appe>what does your licence limit you to?
13:00<andythenorth>arbitrage doesn't work very reliably
13:00<appe>when it comes to hiring commercial biz for the sake of marketing.
13:00<andythenorth>you can make revenue from good content
13:00<andythenorth>but the arbitrage model is very slim, and easily broken by market conditions
13:01<SpComb>appe: license?
13:01<SpComb>for the code?
13:01<andythenorth>also, what would you do with the income? Other than pay more bandwidth (actually I think that was his suggestion)
13:01<SpComb>only thing that might apply would be any trademarks
13:01<andythenorth>once you start making money, any legal dispute with Atari does get more interesting for them to pursue
13:01<andythenorth>whereas currently...not
13:02<andythenorth>but I think the goal of marketing was explained as 'more fanbase'
13:02<appe>what andythenorth said.
13:02<andythenorth>as though that is intinsically good
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13:10<oskari89>Time to draw some level crossing related stuff :)
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13:16<andythenorth>how rare: a suggestion that seems good :)
13:16<andythenorth>I think 'refurb / upgrade' might be a valid feature
13:17<andythenorth>and could probably be handled by newgrf
13:17<andythenorth>it 'just' needs a more structured way than currently available
13:21<andythenorth>like an incremental variable on the vehicle for 'model variation' or such
13:23<andythenorth>and then use cb36 to set props
13:23<andythenorth>and the game or the newgrf can increment the var
13:23<andythenorth>or the game asks the newgrf if it can increment the var....
13:24<andythenorth>it would be better than the NARS / HEQS current kludge with upgrading model stats
13:25*andythenorth would instantly abuse it by packing bits somehow so that it could also handle liveries :P
13:26*frosch123 is amused about the discussion why there are no google ads on the ottd page :p
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13:36<Matulla>Hi ,Question howto get a train waiting for at least 2 days for lading ,espacaly if there is no load in the station
13:36<Matulla>is there a tutorial or howto around for this
13:37<FLHerne>Timetables should do that
13:37<Rhamphoryncus>andythenorth: we need a way to refit to newer models anyway
13:38<Matulla>i do a waystation after the train and direct it back if there is no load persent
13:38<andythenorth>there is a way to refit to newer models
13:38<andythenorth>but it plays badly with newgrfs where model stats change :)
13:39<FLHerne>Nuisance to set up, but allow you to set station dwell time
13:39<Rhamphoryncus>That's what I mean
13:39<Matulla>FLHerne: thanks
13:40<andythenorth>if newgrfs had a method to indicate available model upgrades that would work better
13:40<andythenorth>they could also specify a cost for upgrade / refurb
13:40<Rhamphoryncus>Why again don't they just have 3 different engines?
13:40<andythenorth>buy menu spam
13:41<andythenorth>HEQS could have 5 different models of mog
13:41<andythenorth>but it's tiresome
13:41<andythenorth>they're not significantly different enough to warrant a separate model
13:42<Rhamphoryncus>So.. fix the buy menu. And make sure the newgrf can override upgrade costs so it can do cheaper refits/refurbs
13:42<andythenorth>so 'auto-replace' becomes 'refurb' ?
13:42<andythenorth>auto-renew / replace /s
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13:43<Rhamphoryncus>Replace to a different engine, refit to a different model of the same engine, refurb to the same model
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13:45<andythenorth>refurb just resets reliability?
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: translators * r24087 /trunk/src/lang/ (dutch.txt french.txt korean.txt latvian.txt):
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: dutch - 3 changes by Parody
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: french - 4 changes by OliTTD
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: korean - 1 changes by telk5093
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: latvian - 30 changes by Parastais
13:45<andythenorth>or changes other stats?
13:46<Rhamphoryncus>Reliability. Is there another stat that should be reset?
13:46<andythenorth>I'd have to read code about how reliability actually works :P
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13:46<Rhamphoryncus>badly :)
13:46<andythenorth>something like NARS adjusts costs according to class age iirc
13:46<Rhamphoryncus>Oh, running cost too, if the newgrf is playing with that
13:47<andythenorth>but to handle that, a method is then needed between newgrf and game....
13:47<andythenorth>i.e. a refurb counter or such
13:48<andythenorth>I guess it's a subset of general storage I'd like to see for 'variations' on vehicles
13:48<Rhamphoryncus>IMO, the class age costs should be a small increase. Larger increase should be time since last refurbishment
13:48<andythenorth>that's fine, but the newgrf spec has no opinion
13:48<andythenorth>therefore you have no way to influence that other than social pressure ;)
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13:51<Rhamphoryncus>Just par for me ;)
13:51<andythenorth>if a more general storage was available, we could stop abusing cargo subtypes
13:51<andythenorth>which happens currently, and is a mess
13:51<andythenorth>hmm, tidy minds are bad
13:58<Rhamphoryncus>There we go, flipped my charts and got the proper labels on it. Now I've figured out what I want to do with cargo payments
13:59<Rhamphoryncus>Each cargo type has a speed threshold that goes up with distance. For oil or coal it's pretty flat; they don't care about speed. For passengers it's steep, but with a couple plateaus to allow buses for short trips
14:00<Rhamphoryncus>The speed threshold is the point of decreasing returns on payment, where farther gets you less and less benefit
14:00<andythenorth>you doing it with newgrf?
14:00<Rhamphoryncus>That's my plan
14:00<andythenorth>had a look at FIRS payment curves?
14:00<Rhamphoryncus>... I didn't know FIRS had payment curves ;)
14:00<andythenorth>it does, the originals are unworkable except for a certain subset of play styles
14:01<andythenorth>basically I don't want to ship coal by maglev
14:01<Rhamphoryncus>So.. 90% of my recent gameplay hasn't worked the way I thought it did
14:01<andythenorth>nor should ships be penalised over long distances
14:01<andythenorth>for bulk cargos
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14:03<Rhamphoryncus>Hmm. So the in-game cargo payment screen is broken with FIRS :)
14:04<andythenorth>other than 'too many cargos', how?
14:04<Rhamphoryncus>The information it's giving me is irrelevant
14:04<Rhamphoryncus>As it's just the standard algorithm
14:05<andythenorth>there are a number of curve adjustment parameters we use
14:05<andythenorth>but only those exposed to newgrf, nothing other than that
14:05*Rhamphoryncus nods
14:05<Rhamphoryncus>I'll definitely have to look
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15:05<drac_boy>so which var or so would it had been to be able to change sprite&length for a vehicle in the depot refit window?
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15:13*drac_boy wonders who xiong could be
15:15<xiong>drac_boy, I am Xiong.
15:17<drac_boy>I mean why the frequent coming&going :p
15:21<xiong>When I returned my own people laughed at me, calling me He Who Speaks Loud Saying Nothing. Now, I am Nobody.
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16:22<Wolf01>'night all
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16:33<xiong>When I returned my own people laughed at me, calling me He Who Speaks Loud Saying Nothing. Now, I am Nobody.
16:34<Eddi|zuHause>poor he-who-speaks-loudly-not-listening-to-me :/
16:34<xiong>drac_boy, I am an ATT customer on his last day. I am going to try Comcast, whose lineman is arriving... shortly.
16:35<drac_boy>eddi yeah I can't seem to make much sense of him
16:35<drac_boy>wonder why I ever asked in first place heh
16:35<xiong>drac_boy, What is difficult?
16:35<appe_>hey, what happend.
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16:36<xiong>ATT connectivity stinks. It stunk before and has gotten much worse recently. Therefore you see me coming and going.
16:36<Rhamphoryncus>Ugh, that was annoying. nmlc choked because I tried making a symlink to it.. but the error it gave mentioned the file I edited, and the specific line I edited
16:36<Rhamphoryncus>Which was a complete coincidence
16:37<xiong>What's difficult is figuring out a rational statement of who I am, beyond my name. Who can answer this?
16:37*xiong 51 M San Francisco CA former hardware engineer, proud autistic; Perl, history, railroad models, recreational geometry; Be active:
16:37<xiong>Hm, that's obsolete.
16:37*appe_ read obese
16:38*xiong 52 M San Francisco CA former hardware engineer, proud autistic; Perl, history, railroad models, recreational geometry; Be active:
16:38<frosch123>what.... simutrans has a osx developer :o
16:38<xiong>appe_, That too.
16:39<drac_boy>hi frosch123
16:40<xiong>Ha ha. My new Netgear cable modem came with the complete printed text of GPL v2 *and* v3. Perhaps I'm allowed to choose.
16:40<drac_boy>how're you frosch123?
16:40<frosch123>pondering going to bed :p
16:41<drac_boy>I'm just drawing a bit and still trying to figure out patch vars .. well .. aside to being on irc a bit :p
16:41<drac_boy>at some point I guess I'll start supper
16:42*xiong wonders, who is drac_boy?
16:43<xiong>... and, Have you any tobacco?
16:48<drac_boy>frosch123 don't know if you wanted to answer this before bed or not but - can you set different sprite lengths for vehicle refits?
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16:50<frosch123>you can change the length of vehicles with refitting
16:50<frosch123>heqs does that to simulate more or less vehicles
16:50<drac_boy>well I guess the problem is I can't quite figure out which vars thats supposed to be? :)
16:51<frosch123>nml or nfo?
16:52<drac_boy>ah sorry should had mentioned that, nfo :)
16:52<frosch123>then it's callback 11 for grf version <= 7, resp. callback 36 for grf version >= 8
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16:53<drac_boy>oh, thanks frosch123. have a good sleep hopefully :)
16:54<frosch123>now i scared you off, right? :p
16:54<drac_boy>nope? :)
16:56<drac_boy>one of the few reasons I asked about that was to save some vehicle ids in the list if I can just lump cabover and conventional tractors together considering both share the same engine and number of axle
16:56<drac_boy>seem like a waste of slots in the list otherwise
16:58<frosch123>sounds like a livery refit
16:59<Eddi|zuHause><drac_boy> eddi yeah I can't seem to make much sense of him <-- i meant he has me on his ignore list
17:00<drac_boy>frosch123 mm well the sprites are a bit different length as well
17:00<drac_boy>anyway back to some more drawing for me ;)
17:01<Eddi|zuHause>drac_boy: the question you should be askong when deciding whether to use livery refit or separate vehicles is: "what's the gameplay difference between both, and would a player ever want to autoreplace one to the other?"
17:01<frosch123>simutrans always feels weird to me... all graphic "paks" they have are always complete basesets
17:01<frosch123>there seems to be no way to combine stuff
17:02<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: make a combined pak :p
17:02<Eddi|zuHause>my simutrans version is from 2002-ish
17:03<frosch123>at some point i had a hellish slow simutrans which tried to simulate pedestrians
17:03<frosch123>i did not manage to turn that crap off
17:03<Eddi|zuHause>hehe :)
17:03<frosch123>so i do not know whether it would have run faster
17:03<drac_boy>eddi heh well I don't think there would be any reason to offer autoreplace on them btw. but it'll be seperate id for the smaller 2-axle verus larger 3-axle ones on other hand
17:04<frosch123>but they seem to have diagonal roads
17:05<Eddi|zuHause>drac_boy: if there's absolutely no difference (power, speed, etc.) then you might consider leaving one out
17:05<frosch123>oh, good that we never added highway graphics to ottd
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17:05<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: there's the dutch road furniture grf
17:05*Belugas closes the books and heads to home, where some manual work awaits him. again. night all
17:05<drac_boy>eddi well its an aethistic matter so I'll rather put both in. someone might want the cabover look while another player wants conventional nose instead
17:05<frosch123>vehicles stopping on the highway just because the vehicle in front is driving slightly slower looks funny
17:06<Eddi|zuHause>highways are in dire need of smoother curves
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17:13<drac_boy>hm seem to be down -_-
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17:15<drac_boy>eddi would you mind pm for a moment?
17:16<Eddi|zuHause>what for?
17:16<drac_boy>well paste is down...and I dunno about spamming a little bit in here. but if you're not interested re trucks thats ok anyway
17:17<Eddi|zuHause>there are like a dozen paste sites
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17:28<drac_boy>sorry, had a phone call. heres one example of what I was thinking about. its still open to debate yet of course. the multiplier is just roughly by about how much more cargo it can take
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17:29<drac_boy>thats what the refit list would had looked like
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18:13<drac_boy>sure is quite a lot of smoke from the pot -_-
18:13<drac_boy>at least supper's almost done
18:15<@Terkhen>good night
18:15<drac_boy>bye Terkhen
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20:03<Rhamphoryncus>what order of operations does nml use? In particular will a+b/c do the divide first?
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20:58<DDR>Rhamphoryncus: probably the standard order, brackets-exponents-division-multiplication-addition-subtraction.
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20:58<Rhamphoryncus>*nod* I'm working on that assumption
20:58<DDR>Smart cookie.
20:58<DDR>I've got no direct experience, myself, unfortunately.
21:01<Rhamphoryncus>Not so much smart as desperate. Took 5 hours to get the cargo payment callback working. :/
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21:03<drac_boy>poor you Rhamphoryncus
21:04<drac_boy>heh :)
21:18<drac_boy>any better luck yet Rhamphoryncus? :)
21:19<Rhamphoryncus>On which? Finding documentation on expressions? I gave up. Getting the cargo payment callback working? I did, after those 5 hours
21:20<drac_boy>ic...doesn't sound like much new progress :-/
21:27<Rhamphoryncus>... I can't do it. The pricing API is broken.
21:28<Rhamphoryncus>Only 49 useful values, which has to be scaled across a maximum distance of 4096
21:31<Rhamphoryncus>Ugh, my brain must be fried :P
21:32<drac_boy>heh heh
21:32<drac_boy>I'm going to bed in about a hour here as well. did manage to work some more on my sheet for now tho
21:33<drac_boy>got up to like 4Bh for town buildings tho..will have see what else I could think of tomorrow heh
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---Logclosed Tue Apr 03 00:00:34 2012