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#openttd IRC Logs for 2012-04-03

---Logopened Tue Apr 03 00:00:34 2012
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02:38<Pikka>good morrow andythenorth
02:38<andythenorth>bonsoir
02:39<Pikka>time for some automatic barrier crossings I think
02:40<andythenorth>why not
02:41<Pikka>half barriers have white stop lines, full barriers have yellow box pattern?
02:41<andythenorth>it is 07.41 after all
02:41<andythenorth>the sun is probably near the yard arm
02:42*andythenorth will be off to toil
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03:40<@Terkhen>good morning
03:40<Ammler>peter1138: lol, opengfx fixes something and you say, it is broken :-D
03:41<Ammler>basically you mean, opengfx should also "clone" the errors from ttd
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04:00<dihedral>greetings
04:02<@Terkhen>hi dihedral
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04:23<@peter1138>Ammler, what error?
04:24<@peter1138>Ammler, you think that the sprites being wrong in the purchase list is a fix?
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04:57<@peter1138>i guess you do
05:02<appe_>as i recall, some of you guys use excel on a daily basis?
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05:43<Ammler>the wrong sprite is from the newgrf
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05:46<krinn>hi, what is the time limit for saving with an AI, i reach it fast ?
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05:58<Ammler>peter1138: anyway made a ticket :-)
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06:18<@peter1138>thanks
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06:18<@peter1138>btw, i don't believe the ttd sprites are wrong. we're looking from up in the sky, not level with them.
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06:33<drac_boy>hi
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06:57<zxbiohazardzx>heya
06:57<zxbiohazardzx>im looking for the old custom airport designer thingy, but i cant find it on the forums :(
06:58<zxbiohazardzx>problem is i dont know the exact name of it anymore, but it was wire-frame to test/create custom airport layouts
06:58<zxbiohazardzx>not useable ingame, but worked good enough for mockups etc
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07:00<drac_boy>hmm souns interesting but seeing I'm more of a patch player I'm not much help sorry :-)
07:01<drac_boy>souns=sounds*
07:01<zxbiohazardzx>yeah im just hunting forums for it atm, but its not easy to find if you dont know exactly where/what to look :P
07:01<drac_boy>zxbiohazardzx I always wondered whatever happened to the seaport option, seaplanes landing on coastline water instead :)
07:01<zxbiohazardzx>seaport is in newgrf forum
07:01<zxbiohazardzx>ive seen it and it works
07:02<drac_boy>ah ok :)
07:02<zxbiohazardzx>its just a normal airport that can be used in combination with watertile objects around it
07:02<zxbiohazardzx>page 3 of the grf-development topic has it i think
07:03<drac_boy>so do you create anything or just more or less like to play around with things? just curious
07:03<zxbiohazardzx>nah i want to use it for the dock suggestion
07:03<zxbiohazardzx>i added the suggestion to handle docks more like airports
07:04<zxbiohazardzx>and wanted to add an image of my suggestion using airport tiles i can color blue :P
07:04<drac_boy>heh well I don't know..ships and planes don't really mix unless they're both smaller :)
07:04<zxbiohazardzx>haha
07:04<zxbiohazardzx>well i suggested to change teh dock handling
07:04<Pikka>zxbiohazardzx: it's well and truly planned to use the statemachine handling for ship ports too
07:04<zxbiohazardzx>atm you have 1 dock tile and that can hold about 100 ships
07:05<Pikka>that's why some of us refer to the project as new(air)ports :)
07:05<Pikka>but it has to be got working for airports first before we can expand it
07:05<zxbiohazardzx>where i suggest to make it similar to airports with a bay 1 boat can dock onto, and then the rest can jst be on holding pattern similar to airports
07:05<drac_boy>zxbiohazardzx in real life a single dock that size would be only 2 larger ships or up to 4-6 small ones :p
07:05<zxbiohazardzx>Pikka statemachine handling will take a while
07:05<drac_boy>such is the game reality
07:05<zxbiohazardzx>im not sure how "hard" it is to modify the dock handling to a more airport like style
07:06<zxbiohazardzx>aka have a "landing/starting" strip for boats to enter/leave the harbor
07:06<zxbiohazardzx>and then handle it exactly like airport with dock/bays to load/unload and a serviceplace
07:06<drac_boy>zxbiohazardzx one of the problem with modifying it is how to decide how to hold "excessive" ships out in the water considering you'll have to scan the tiles around the dock to determine where water rather than land is etc
07:07<zxbiohazardzx>similar to the airplane holding pattern
07:07<zxbiohazardzx>they just circle around?
07:07<zxbiohazardzx>but yeah true
07:07<zxbiohazardzx>maybe just stop them still?
07:07<drac_boy>zxbiohazardzx circling would cause more load due to needing to pathfind water tiles...so its a similar or worser effect
07:07<zxbiohazardzx>planes cant stop
07:07<zxbiohazardzx>boats can
07:07<zxbiohazardzx>so just stop them in the water if full?
07:07<zxbiohazardzx>instead of cicling, they anker
07:07<zxbiohazardzx>set speed to 0 :P not full stop ofc
07:08<drac_boy>would you allow non-stopped ships to go through stopped ships as if they didn't exist? because otherwise in a narrow canal it could cause a blockup just as much as a stopped truck causes a road jam
07:09<zxbiohazardzx>yes as we currently also allow ships to go through eachother
07:10<zxbiohazardzx>nothing changes there, just the dock gets altered from a 2-tile wtf solution into a more natural harbor behaviour like airports have
07:10<drac_boy>as long as theres an advanced option to pick between the two behaviours :)
07:10<zxbiohazardzx>similar to the seaplane port only then with ships instead of planes, and ships stopping instead of circling
07:11<zxbiohazardzx>atm we dont block a canal if you stop a boat.....
07:11<zxbiohazardzx>so why would we have to add that adll of a sudden?
07:11<Eddi|zuHause>zxbiohazardzx: you meant the airport minigame?
07:12<drac_boy>well its because to make a boat not go to the dock..you'll have to 'reserve' its water tile for it to know to stop there...then second boat wait behind it.. and now to tell the same pathfinder that the third ship doesn't want to stop at that dock so it can go through the reserved tiles freely
07:12<drac_boy>know what I'm thinking of now?
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07:14<Eddi|zuHause>zxbiohazardzx: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=38709&hilit=minigame
07:14<zxbiohazardzx>Yes Eddi|zuHause i did
07:14<zxbiohazardzx>thx
07:15<zxbiohazardzx>hoping the JAR will run :P
07:15<zxbiohazardzx>and ofc it does :) thx Eddi
07:22<drac_boy>zxbiohazardzx maybe the option could be named 'ships don't overlap at dock: yes/no' or something generic enough to make sense?
07:23<drac_boy>former would mean your new behaviour while latter is the same old
07:23<zxbiohazardzx>drac_boy yeah but i think a more airport-like approach to docks would be nice/better?
07:23<drac_boy>zxbiohazardzx not for everyone tho. especially if someone wanted to use multiply small boats on purpose rather than trying to save up for one huge single boat
07:26<drac_boy>zxbiohazardzx and then the second reason to keep an option for normal behaviour is also because docks sometimes can be used for multiply cargos just like rail stations are
07:27<drac_boy>so for a grain ship to be held up just because the goods ship doesn't have a full load yet .. and thats a bad catch-22
07:27<Eddi|zuHause>drac_boy: that only means some advanced management functions are needed
07:28<drac_boy>well easiest option still would be to offer both behaviours and let the user pick it for their singleplayer maps
07:32<drac_boy>actually, I sometimes play with the option to have default stationcargo (forgot what its called anymore) behaviour where it doesn't not show anything till at least one train has stopped there
07:32<zxbiohazardzx>for me drac_boy a dock should behave EXACTLY as airports do
07:32<drac_boy>so it goes to show why an enable/disable behaviour is a necessarity even for simple things
07:32<zxbiohazardzx>maybe with more bays, but handling should be the same
07:32<zxbiohazardzx>1 slot per boat entry/exitlane
07:33<drac_boy>zxbiohazardzx and as usual - how do you propsal a city dock with no room to expand should be able to hand 10+ small ferry ships without forcing the user to have to try find cash for one useless big ferry boat?
07:34<zxbiohazardzx>drac_boy a city dock is not designed to hold 100 ships?
07:34<zxbiohazardzx>so they could be smaller, airports come in multiple sizes/variations as well
07:34<drac_boy>zxbiohazardzx well thats the problem..what would be one tile big in the game could be actually 2km big in reallife
07:35<zxbiohazardzx>and pax loadtimes are way faster then cargo ones?
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07:35<drac_boy>so again..if you're going to introduce something that limits ships then at least introduce some way to split up tiles :)
07:35<zxbiohazardzx>so a citydock can be done with eg 2 tiles, for loadtimes are faster
07:35<zxbiohazardzx>splitting tiles isnt possible afaik due to limitations in the map-array
07:35<drac_boy>see? thats why certain things aren't always going to work
07:36<zxbiohazardzx>current 2-tile long dock simply isnt nice gameplaywise either
07:36<drac_boy>zxbiohazardzx maybe not but its limited by the map array so
07:36<zxbiohazardzx>boats overlapping in canals is already a pain for myself (i always split tehm with buoys)
07:36<zxbiohazardzx>but harbor behaviour is just weird
07:36<zxbiohazardzx>all stations can be expanded
07:37<zxbiohazardzx>but you can only have 1 harbor / station
07:37<@peter1138>dock!
07:37<@peter1138>multistop docks hasn't been coded
07:37<Pikka>language, peter
07:37<drac_boy>zxbiohazardzx can you have two airports per station? theres your answer
07:37<@peter1138>someone™ just needs to do it
07:38<Pikka>new(air)ports!
07:38<Pikka>
07:38<zxbiohazardzx>@peter1138 see suggestions forum, i (again?) suggested to handle docks more like airports
07:38<zxbiohazardzx>i think its more realistic and a better gameplay as well
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07:39<zxbiohazardzx>drac_boy no but you can increase airport size to scale with capacity needed
07:39<@peter1138>it's not a new suggestion, reading it on the forum isn't going to help
07:39<zxbiohazardzx>docks dont limit capacity at all
07:39<drac_boy>zxbiohazardzx how do you "increase" a small airport silly :)
07:39<zxbiohazardzx>drac_boy by upgrading it (huzzay patch)
07:40<zxbiohazardzx>but yeah remove+readd bigger one
07:40<zxbiohazardzx>my point is that for airports you have different sizes
07:40<drac_boy>zxbiohazardzx that might help if there was anything bigger...which isn't so
07:40<zxbiohazardzx>for docks you have 1 dock
07:40<zxbiohazardzx>that has unlimited ammount of ships overlapping/docking into it
07:40<zxbiohazardzx>hence i think the airport approach would be much better, as then you at least have the option to expand it as demand/supply increase
07:41<zxbiohazardzx>and its capacity is then again defined by the ammount of bays
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07:41<drac_boy>zxbiohazardzx you forgot one other thing again.. big and small ship are not the same
07:41<zxbiohazardzx>aka old dock could be maintained, but it can only hold 1 or 2 (not sure yet) ships max
07:41<zxbiohazardzx>drac_boy neither are big and small aircrafts
07:41<drac_boy>zxbiohazardzx planes doesn't matter because its still same terminal
07:41<zxbiohazardzx>no wrong drac_boy
07:42<drac_boy>but for a ship it does matter.. where one big ship would dock the same spot could hold three of the smaller ones
07:42<zxbiohazardzx>try landing the 747 on a small airport with crashes enabled
07:42<zxbiohazardzx>it will go boom before you even see it land
07:42<drac_boy>zxbiohazardzx I'm not talking about the runaway
07:42<drac_boy>TERMINAL
07:42<zxbiohazardzx>terminal can only be reached via runway
07:42<zxbiohazardzx>and if you want you can code the terminal not to accept shiptype "big" or small?
07:43<zxbiohazardzx>if type != acceptedtype then error pathfinder or whatever
07:43<drac_boy>thats not the point.. the point is one terminal tile can hold any one plane .... thats ok .. but a dock is different ... if you theriocally made it 1km=1tile then that means one dock tile could hold one big ship or three small ships at either time
07:43<zxbiohazardzx>not a correct docktype or similar when trying to set the order
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07:43<Eddi|zuHause>zxbiohazardzx: yes. same as heliport won't accept airplanes
07:43<zxbiohazardzx>exactly Eddi
07:44<zxbiohazardzx>it makes so much more sense to handle boats as if they where aircraft for the loading/unloading
07:44<zxbiohazardzx>both gameplay and realism
07:44<Eddi|zuHause>yes. we know.
07:44<Eddi|zuHause>we already accepted the suggestion long ago.
07:44<zxbiohazardzx>drac_boy isnt seeing my point :)
07:44<zxbiohazardzx>didnt know that Eddi :P
07:44<drac_boy>zxbiohazardzx you don't even understand ships thats why
07:44<Eddi|zuHause>just nobody coded it
07:45<zxbiohazardzx>i can read code, not your accepted list/ideas
07:45<zxbiohazardzx>@Drac_boy i think i do, im using them ALOT in my games
07:45<zxbiohazardzx>FISH && newships etc
07:45<drac_boy>zxbiohazardzx if a small ship is supposed to take up the same space at the dock as a big ship then why is the small ship not holding 500 tonnes of coal as well then?
07:45<drac_boy>thats the point of needing to make more space for smaller ships than big ones at your dock
07:46<zxbiohazardzx>@drac_boy smae question for the small aircraft
07:46<drac_boy>zxbiohazardzx nope it doesn't
07:46<zxbiohazardzx>it Also takes up same space at the airport as a big aircraft
07:46<drac_boy>zxbiohazardzx thats only because airports are actually limited by that passenger connecting tubes
07:46<zxbiohazardzx>your dock cranes cant do 2 small ships in the space of 1 large
07:47<drac_boy>ships don't have such limit at all
07:47<zxbiohazardzx>drac_boy your ships are limited by the dock facilies
07:47<zxbiohazardzx>small ships still have advantages in running costs or other methods
07:47<drac_boy>zxbiohazardzx wrong...theres a lot of real ships that can load/unload on their own
07:47<zxbiohazardzx>example see FISH
07:47<drac_boy>ever seen container ships with their own cranes docked at a flat dock that doesn't even have any kind of cranes or even forklifters at all? :)
07:47<zxbiohazardzx>drac_boy im a civil engineer i can tell you that docks in real life have similar limitations as airports
07:47<zxbiohazardzx>you have X docking locations
07:47<zxbiohazardzx>if you have 2 huge ships
07:48<zxbiohazardzx>then you might be able to do 3 smalls in that same space
07:48<zxbiohazardzx>but 4 wont even fit
07:48<zxbiohazardzx>so gameplaywise you can just use 1 space per ship, regardless of size
07:48<zxbiohazardzx>if you insist on making small/big usefull then define special types (small docks) (big docks) similar to airports
07:48<zxbiohazardzx>helicopters wont land on airport strips
07:49<drac_boy>well as long as 'big dock' takes up two 'small dock' spots then that might be an amendable compromise
07:49<zxbiohazardzx>well bigdock will still need 1 tile per bay
07:49<Eddi|zuHause>drac_boy: one idea could be to have the "normal" dock load on all 3 sides
07:49<zxbiohazardzx>hmhm
07:50<zxbiohazardzx>where big-docks can only load on 2 sides
07:50<zxbiohazardzx>that should fix the scaling a bit
07:50<zxbiohazardzx>normal dock (current) has 3 adjecent tiles, where big dock would only allow/have 2
07:50<zxbiohazardzx>still needs bit of tweaking but in general i honestly think this would improve ship gameplay
07:51<zxbiohazardzx>any work done at all on this btw Eddi, or just brainstorm and thats it?
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07:53<drac_boy>at least this hopefully is just for ottd ^_^
07:53<zxbiohazardzx>hehe
07:55<drac_boy>still its nice that theres programmable signals in ottd finally..even although its in chrill's build
07:57<zxbiohazardzx>haha
07:57<zxbiohazardzx>yeah chrill has some nice extra's
07:57<zxbiohazardzx>signals in tunnels/bridges
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07:57<zxbiohazardzx>too bad its hacked in
07:57<zxbiohazardzx>i just lack custom bridgeheads for ottd
07:57<zxbiohazardzx>so i can finally make my cities more compact :P
07:57<zxbiohazardzx>my trains always cut my cities into 2 parts
07:58<zxbiohazardzx>and bridging over the tracks isnt that neat if you ahve to bend to them
07:58<drac_boy>zxbiohazardzx you want know what I think is the most fun part about chrill's build? :)
07:59<zxbiohazardzx>tell meh;)
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08:01<drac_boy>being able to run multiply railroads just like the real thing did....so eg SBB takes a load of lumber and passengers then all the lumber and some passengers end up on a SNCF train instead ... finally near last leg a shortline operator takes some of the lumber onward to a different 'customer' (or shall we say sawmill)
08:01<drac_boy>got to love infrashare+cargodest lumped together :)
08:02<Chris_Booth[ph]>No you have drac_boy
08:02<zxbiohazardzx>yes true
08:02<zxbiohazardzx>i played with romazoon on the cincinidi map
08:02<zxbiohazardzx>best game ever
08:02<Chris_Booth[ph]>Cargo dear is retarded
08:02<zxbiohazardzx>it only lacked the CBH for me
08:02<zxbiohazardzx>then it would have been insane
08:04<drac_boy>zxbiohazardzx I don't know where jamie seem to be anymore but one of the game we were playing like 2 weeks ago roughly had quite a wild mash of passengers-sharing :)
08:04<drac_boy>different methods too..I was running a few bullets but a lot of local emus .. jamie had many express trains and some metros ... and the third player was almost all metro with one maglev line
08:05<zxbiohazardzx>yeah dunno i still want the last savegame of cincinidi, as i only have an older version
08:05<drac_boy>some of the junction stations had 100+ different destinations in them. crazy
08:05<zxbiohazardzx>haha i remember that much indeed
08:05<zxbiohazardzx>dunno where he is now though :P
08:06<drac_boy>zxbiohazardzx so anyway here's a good question for you...
08:07<drac_boy>if you want to shove docks up into ports .. then can we at least ask for the same thing from road vehicles too? ;)
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08:09<zxbiohazardzx>drac_boy lolwut, road vehicles already have that?
08:10<zxbiohazardzx>a road-bay (no drive through) can only hold 2 cars
08:10<zxbiohazardzx>a drive through same
08:10<zxbiohazardzx>but different orientation
08:10<zxbiohazardzx>to expand your road station: add multiple bays :)
08:10<drac_boy>zxbiohazardzx where's a 1x2 road terminal that could let goods rigs back their load into on a deadend road? :P
08:12<zxbiohazardzx>@drac_boy ask the newgrfdudes for that...
08:12<zxbiohazardzx>the roadstop code allows you to have a terminus and through option in various ways i think
08:12<drac_boy>zxbiohazardzx to be honest a majority of the freight trucks unload through the rear at the end of the road/driveway .. not onto the sidewalk in the middle of the street. thats why the thru stations just don't seem so good
08:12<drac_boy>but thats just me
08:13<zxbiohazardzx>drac_boy i agree, so then you can use the terminus ones
08:13<drac_boy>yeah the problem with the current 1x1 terminus is that articulated's can't go into there even although technically they should be able to after all
08:13<zxbiohazardzx>the side-way ones can be used though but you have to add some eyecandy tiles where both sides of the roads have industrial type stuff
08:13<zxbiohazardzx>i can do that with ISR, DWE and road tiles already so
08:16<drac_boy>zxbiohazardzx I mentioned this once before but can't remember if it was in jamie's game or here but anyhow here's one thing that I have thought a lot about...
08:16<drac_boy>why can't we have the option in ottd to pick three different type of tram tiles?
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08:17<zxbiohazardzx>because roadtypes arent implemented yet
08:17<drac_boy>1. rail+overheadwire as usual 2. rails only 3. overhead wires only
08:17<zxbiohazardzx>its that easy
08:17<zxbiohazardzx>they are busy with it afaik, but its not implemented in any form
08:17<drac_boy>you want know why I had thought of the 3 options like that?
08:17<zxbiohazardzx>it would require road-types, so you can define multiple types of roads (1-way normal) and multiple type of tramways (liek you said)
08:18<zxbiohazardzx>normal, dieseltram, trollybus? :P
08:18<zxbiohazardzx>but yeah road-types are WIP if im not mistaken
08:18<zxbiohazardzx>anyway im afk/out, poke me later :)
08:19<zxbiohazardzx>if you sie jamie, then poke him hard :)
08:19<drac_boy>heh .. well ... electric trolley/tram ... fuel freight trams don't need overhead (steam trams especially) ... trolleybuses don't need rails ...
08:19<drac_boy>thats the three majority differences :)
08:19<drac_boy>bye anyway zxbiohazardzx
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08:23*drac_boy goes back to more tracking table fillins
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08:43<drac_boy>hi pikka
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08:48<Pikka>hello
08:49<drac_boy>if you don't mind, I'm wondering if you're working on any grfs these days or not so much?
08:57<Pikka>a little, drac_boy
08:58<drac_boy>mm you have some interesting works anyhow :)
08:59<Eddi|zuHause>Pikka is the new MB! :)
08:59<drac_boy>eddi I'm not too sure about that but then whatever :P
08:59<Pikka>I am, Eddi?
08:59<Eddi|zuHause>Pikka: working on a dozen grfs, never releasing anything :)
09:00<Pikka>last I looked I've released two fairly major grf updates in the last week, including 1.0 of UKRS2. :)
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09:02<drac_boy>hm anyway I should go for a bit :-s
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09:02<Pikka>enjoy your bit
09:03<Eddi|zuHause>no dirty talk before 22:00
09:03<Pikka>it's 23:02
09:05<Pikka>http://www.pruplethingz.com/junk/funtimesintheolddepottonight.png
09:08<Pikka>ufo hiding in a depot :)
09:09<Pikka>the AI trucks all have "service at this depot" as their only order, so they don't come out of the depot. The truck isn't /stopped/ in the depot, so the UFO will still track it, but it can't destroy it because it's not on the map. so the UFO flies down and circles in the depot.
09:12<Eddi|zuHause>"Pirates up to 12%. Minister of interior Herrmann (CDU [conservatives]) calls them 'anarchistic'"
09:26<@Belugas>hello
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10:06<Pikka>why does nforenum think variable 06 doesn't exist?
10:07<Eddi|zuHause>you didn't update, have custom data files, or you're reading the output wrong?
10:08<Eddi|zuHause>or wrong feature
10:08<Pikka>I don't think any of those are the case. it's for railtypes so I guess it's a data file problem. either mine or general. :)
10:10<Pikka>can't be "didn't update" because var 06 has existed forever, can't be wrong feature because it's a general variable, don't know what "reading the output wrong" means. so it can only be data files.
10:12<Eddi|zuHause>what does var 06 do? can't find it in the specs
10:13<Eddi|zuHause>ah there
10:14<Pikka>It was more of a rhetorical question, anyway. the grf works, it's just renum doing something unexpected. which isn't entirely unexpected. :)
10:16<Pikka>oh, right
10:16<Pikka>and to answer my other pondering, info version 32 swaps ysize and xsize :)
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10:33<Eddi|zuHause>why won't the forum allow me to open or download this attachment?!?
10:33<Eddi|zuHause>it just "hangs" after chosing a download location
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10:52<Rubidium>Pikka: got some nfo that reproduces the issue you got with nforenum?
10:53<Pikka>!!Warning (86): Offset 4: Testing nonexistant variable 06.
10:53<Pikka> 184 * 14 02 10 c1 81 06 04 01 01 b2 00 01 01 b1 00 // road traffic side
10:54<Pikka>it's not an "issue", it's just wrong :)
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10:58<Rubidium>yup, interestingly more of the global variables are missing. Not sure whether that's by design or not
10:58<Pikka>mr thenorth
10:58<andythenorth>indeed
10:58<andythenorth>and also
11:00<Pikka>andy, do you have any train-depot-like-objects about your person? or any suitable large sheds, perhaps? :)
11:01<andythenorth>probably
11:01<andythenorth>my person is large and has many pockets
11:01<andythenorth>I shall look
11:02<andythenorth>Pikka: any here that you like? http://www.tt-foundry.com/sets/FIRS/schema/industries?economy=point_8_release
11:02<andythenorth>metal workshop for example?
11:03<Pikka>hmm, yes
11:03<Pikka>also machine shop and fertiliser plant have promising bits
11:04<Pikka>perhaps recycling plant too... a cavalcade of depots
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11:05<andythenorth>also http://hg.openttdcoop.org/firs/raw-file/3c209564d26f/sprites/graphics/industries/metalfabricationplant.png
11:05<andythenorth>generally pngs are here
11:05<andythenorth>http://hg.openttdcoop.org/firs/file/3c209564d26f/sprites/graphics/industries
11:05<andythenorth>and psds are here http://hg.openttdcoop.org/firs/file/3c209564d26f/graphics_sources
11:05<andythenorth>'raw' gets you the file
11:06<Pikka>where
11:07<Pikka>oh there
11:07<Pikka>cool :)
11:07<andythenorth>on the stair
11:07<Pikka>I shall make many depots
11:07<andythenorth>how rare
11:07<andythenorth>this is for the track set?
11:07<Pikka>yes
11:07<andythenorth>feel free
11:07<Pikka>it's all done apart from the depots
11:07<Pikka>which shall be optional
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11:20<FlyingFoX>hi, what are some good AIs to use?
11:24<Pikka>it's hard to tell
11:24-!-telanus1 is now known as telanus
11:24<Pikka>I find AdmiralAI works okay.
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11:28<FlyingFoX>i am currently using admiral ai, pathzilla, and dictator ai, but they keep crashing
11:29<Pikka>admiral ai hasn't crashed on me lately, that's why I mentioned it
11:29<Pikka>make sure everything is up to date. at least then it's not your fault when it crashes. :)
11:31-!-zydeco [~zydeco@15.202.20.95.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #openttd
11:31<zydeco>greetings, comrades
11:31<FlyingFoX>yeah i think its only dictator and pathzilla that crash
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11:38<FlyingFoX>are there some kind of challenges? like make the world population greater than 100.000 in 50 years or something like that? i want something reasonably hard as it is no challenge to get incredibly wealthy even on hard settings and against 7 AIs
11:40<Pikka>there are gamescripts. or you can just make up your own challenge.
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11:43<FlyingFoX>my current challenge is to make the population grow as fast as possible on a random subarctic map with hard settings, but that would get a lot more interesting if there was something to compare mysellf to.
11:44<FlyingFoX>those gamescripts only exist in the latest beta, right?
11:45<Pikka>in the 1.2.0 RCs or nightlies, yes
11:46<Eddi|zuHause>i have an alpine map, but all towns are below snow line
11:47<Pikka>btw andythenorth
11:47<Pikka>I noticed that your ships only dieselsmoke when starting off, like a train :[
11:47<Pikka>we need newparticles!
11:48<Prof_Frink>newparticles? higgsbosons!
11:51<andythenorth>Pikka: this would be because you haven't patched newgrf smoke yet :P
11:52<Pikka>newparticles, andy!
11:52<Pikka>think of the possibilities!
11:52<Pikka>including the possibilities that will never be included in openttd, like shooty stuff!
11:53<andythenorth>shooty ships
11:53<Eddi|zuHause>railroad tycoon had military supplies or something
11:53<Pikka>yes
11:53<andythenorth>and War!
11:53<andythenorth>maybe not
11:53<andythenorth>fixing smoke would be a starting point
11:53<Eddi|zuHause>i don't remember a war...
11:54<andythenorth>I don't need newgrf smoke effect vehicles
11:54<andythenorth>just give me the ability to specify x, y, z offsets, and a smoke animation cb
11:54<andythenorth>passing the co-ords and ids of up t n smoke effect vehicles
11:54<andythenorth>as the result
11:54<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: you can't change the "animation" of smoke
11:55<andythenorth>I don't need to
11:55<andythenorth>bad explanation by me
11:55<andythenorth>I just need to specify 'draw an effect vehicle in this tick'
11:55<Pikka>you mean particle emission by vehicle callback
11:55<andythenorth>no
11:55<andythenorth>I mean just 'add new effect vehicle at x,y,z'
11:55<Pikka>no?
11:55<Pikka>yes
11:55<andythenorth>yes
11:55<andythenorth>no
11:55<Pikka>a callback
11:55<andythenorth>dunno
11:55<Pikka>on the vehicle
11:55<Eddi|zuHause>yesno?
11:55<andythenorth>this http://bugs.openttd.org/task/4263
11:56<Pikka>to emit a particle / create a particle vehicle
11:56<Pikka>but if you're going to do that, why not go the whole hog and newparticles?
11:56<andythenorth>because it never gets done?
11:56<Pikka>well neither does this :)
11:57<andythenorth>unlike my current suggestion :P
11:57<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: like push the coords into the registers, and then return the number of vehicles to spawn?
11:57<andythenorth>yes
11:57<andythenorth>or the higher bits of cb10 result
11:59<andythenorth>I tested using the z index, it kind of worked
11:59<Eddi|zuHause>or call the callback multiple times, var10 being the number of times it has already run. return coords, or "no further vehicle"
11:59<andythenorth>yes
11:59<andythenorth>care to comment on the FS?
11:59<Eddi|zuHause>not now
11:59<andythenorth>as apparently this is only blocked by (a) lack of final spec and (b) lack of anyone who cares
11:59<andythenorth>but (b) is default and not significant
12:10<Eddi|zuHause>my wallclock is tilted, it freaks me out...
12:10<Eddi|zuHause>but i can't be bothered to go to it and move it
12:10<andythenorth>it would
12:10<zydeco>it surely doesn't freak you out enough then
12:10<andythenorth>throw something, try and get lucky
12:11<zydeco>I always wanted to fill my hovercrafts with eels
12:11<zydeco>so I finally made a newgrf for it
12:11<Eddi|zuHause>have nothing to throw that is less valuable than the clock
12:12<Eddi|zuHause>i never got that joke...
12:12<zydeco>it's from monty python
12:12<Eddi|zuHause>i knoe
12:12<Eddi|zuHause>s/e/w
12:12<Pikka>there's nothing to get, it's just a nonsequitur
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12:13<Eddi|zuHause>oh, and i thought it's because i'm german :p
12:14<Eddi|zuHause>how much german does the average english tv viewer know?
12:14<supermop>english or american?
12:14<supermop>I'd say little in either case
12:14<Eddi|zuHause>i meant english. as in from england
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12:15<zydeco>a person from england who views tv, or a person who views english tv?
12:15<supermop>englishmen do seem more likely to have taken german in school though
12:15<Eddi|zuHause>because i saw a comedy show recently. and they made a sketch in french, with subtitles
12:15<Eddi|zuHause>and then a sketch in german, without subtitles
12:15<supermop>maybe the german itself was the joke?
12:15<Eddi|zuHause>zydeco: i answered that already
12:17<andythenorth>eels
12:17<andythenorth>!
12:17*NGC3982 invites #openttd to a fika.
12:17<andythenorth>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AZG5zoMl9L4
12:18<andythenorth>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Why_Bother%3F
12:18<Eddi|zuHause>supermop: the joke, as far as i understood, was Boris Becker making sexual avances towards Steffi Graf
12:20<supermop>hmm maybe a bit esoteric for english people? i don't know
12:21<supermop>i guess if it was very vaudevillian one could get the idea without knowing the language
12:22<Eddi|zuHause>which actually raises the second question: how well do english people know these two persons?
12:24<zydeco>I don't know, I'm only 1/4 english
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12:46<frosch123>tennis is a british sport, isn't it?
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12:47<Eddi|zuHause>as british as football :)
12:48<Eddi|zuHause>and it's quite a while ago since both were "active"
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13:08<Pikka>www.pruplethingz.com/junk/Image20.png
13:08<Pikka>one down, some to go.
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13:15<andythenorth>works
13:16<Pikka>20th century steam depot, say 1900-1960? :)
13:16<andythenorth>not sooty enough :P
13:16<andythenorth>sounds fine though
13:17<Pikka>well, nothing's very sooty in TTD, otherwise it would be. I just put a bit in at the top of the doorway. :)
13:17<andythenorth>you're doing date-sensitive depot graphics?
13:17<Pikka>by year built I'm thinking, and by railtype.
13:17<andythenorth>is 'choose depot style' even a desirable new feature?
13:17*andythenorth wonders
13:18<Pikka>possibly.
13:18<Pikka>I know some people want to unify depots and stations, which sounds like a nightmare. :)
13:18<andythenorth>can refit at both now :P
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13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: translators * r24088 /trunk/src/lang/ (latvian.txt malay.txt):
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: latvian - 39 changes by Parastais
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: malay - 47 changes by kazlan68
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13:47<oskari89>http://www.tt-forums.net/download/file.php?id=158159 Some Finnish level crossing stuff :)
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13:50<oskari89>Choose level crossing style should be also ;)
13:51<oskari89>If that would be implemented some time, i would have even more variation on that :)
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13:59<andythenorth>Pikka: so 2px narrower for BANDIT trucks?
14:00<Pikka>ahh, possibly. although american-style trucks are rather bigger than uk-style, no?
14:00<andythenorth>not massively
14:00<andythenorth>longer
14:00<andythenorth>not much wider
14:01<Pikka>I drew two 1920s buses so far, do you want the spritesheet to compare?
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14:04<andythenorth>plz
14:04<Pikka>pm has
14:05<Eddi|zuHause>what do you want with a zip-code?
14:05<Pikka>I haven't actually coded these yet so I don't know how they'll look in game
14:05<Pikka>all-cc is probably not a go, they'll need white or other contrasting bits like the one sprite in there to emphasise the shapes.
14:05<andythenorth>smallz
14:06<andythenorth>maybe not too smallz
14:06<Pikka>bear in mind that they are 1920s buses, so they're small even by RV standards
14:06<andythenorth>yarp
14:06<andythenorth>ok
14:09<andythenorth>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/2763/this_one.png
14:09<andythenorth>'at last, the product you've been waiting for: giant mining trucks'
14:10<Eddi|zuHause>i don't think that's a fair comparison :)
14:10<Pikka>the dump truck looks too small compared to the buses, if anything
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14:10<andythenorth>:P
14:11<andythenorth>it's only 95t
14:11<andythenorth>it's a small dump truck ;)
14:11<andythenorth>big ones are 350t
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14:59<drac_boy>hi
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15:11<@Alberth>hi
15:11<drac_boy>hi alberth how're you?
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15:12<@Alberth>having a bad cold :( (not sure it is the right word)
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15:13<@Alberth>last night I didn't sleep very well, so I have a dull headache all day
15:13<@Alberth>hopefully tonight will be better
15:15<drac_boy>yeah hope so :-/
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15:19<drac_boy>well I had a bit of long nap a while ago, but doing ok..just on irc for a bit now and still trying to figure out the road vehicle id mess yet :-s
15:19<drac_boy>heh
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15:46<zydeco>fun times, the newgrf is 2 kb and the license is 22 kb
15:52<drac_boy>zydeco must be a generic almost-all-caps legalse license copied from somewhere else? :)
15:52<frosch123>what's the size of your writ when enforcing that licence?
15:52<zydeco>indeed it is
15:53<drac_boy>funny thing is almost everything I download these days I always throw out any text file that does not say 'guide' or 'readme' in their name
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15:55<drac_boy>this probably has saved me likely at least three thousand less text files cluttering up the indexer.. lost count a long time ago so I'm not sure what the actual numbers would had been anymore
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16:03<Sahri>Hello
16:04<Rubidium>hi
16:04<Sahri>I have a little problem with the tropical map theme. No matter what terrain height I choose, I see no saw mills anywhere on the map
16:05<Rubidium>Pikka: variable 6 'support' has been added to grfcodec; might need to wait almost 24h before the new nightly is created though
16:05<Pikka>there are no sawmills in tropical
16:05<Pikka>there are lumber mills but you have to build them yourself, Sahri
16:05<Rubidium>Sahri: you need to build the lumber mills manually
16:05<Pikka>thanks Rubidium :)
16:05<Sahri>That's what I meant
16:05<Sahri>But thanks for clearing that up
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16:05<drac_boy>I always liked the lumbermill behaviour better than the crappy forests in temperate :)
16:06<Sahri>Why?
16:06<drac_boy>have to keep trees around or if you get too lazy and don't notice that....no more wood for you
16:06<drac_boy>just like with real forests after all
16:06<drac_boy>I'm sure others might have their own opinions on that tho
16:08<Sahri>But aren't lumber mills dependant on forests as well?
16:09<drac_boy>forest != tree btw
16:09<CIA-1>OpenTTD: frosch * r24089 /trunk/src/ (window.cpp window_func.h): -Fix [FS#5136]: Conflicting strategies for resizing the main toolbar and statusbar after resizing the main window.
16:09<Rhamphoryncus>lumber mills use actual trees. A forest is just another industry (like a mine) that happens to look like a tree
16:10<Sahri>Ohhh
16:10<drac_boy>just wondering since theres a few of us here now...is there any point in using GRM for your grf or its always been a moot point even from day one?
16:10<Sahri>So you have to plant trees around the lumber mills or else...
16:11<drac_boy>sahri it'll eventually drop down to zero production, thats what
16:11<Pikka>if you're using OpenTTD it's irrelevant for vehicles, drac_boy. If you're using TTDPatch it's essential.
16:11<drac_boy>pikka ah so its half...hm, thanks
16:12<Sahri>Ah so you can't prevent that from happening?
16:13<Pikka>yes, by planting trees
16:13<drac_boy>sahri if you don't want zero production, do what the real world does...plant new trees once in a while :P
16:13<drac_boy>its not like coal where it doesn't need to be replenished
16:13<Sahri>Okay :3
16:13<drac_boy>although its possible to make a newinustry grf where mines have a limited stockpile to work with before it goes to zero and they close up for good
16:14<Sahri>I saw that one in the downlosd list
16:14<drac_boy>inustry? I mean industry
16:14<Sahri>download*
16:14<drac_boy>silly keyboard :-s
16:14<@Alberth>drac_boy: it should be possible, I think
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16:16<Sahri>That would make the game even harder for me but more realistic
16:16<@Alberth>realism is not a design criterium for the game :p
16:16<drac_boy>I did wonder about one other thing but I don't think I've seen anything in the wiki for it (unless I overlooked it somehow) ... can an industry vary its production depending on the date of the year?
16:17<Pikka>yes, drac_boy
16:19<drac_boy>hm I'll have to recheck the wiki then
16:19<drac_boy>thanks
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16:22<drac_boy>know that some players might not like it but I've always sometimes though about farms and so having a seasonal output. after all you can't hack anything out of the frozen ground during the winter months heh
16:22<Eddi|zuHause>drac_boy: might want to check out var 02, var 23 or var 24
16:23-!-LordPixaII is now known as Pixa
16:24<drac_boy>oh didn't see 23 before. that explains it. thanks
16:25<Eddi|zuHause>"long format" means "days since year 0"
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16:28<@Alberth>drac_boy: farms do not produce if they are above the snow line
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16:29<drac_boy>alberth even in newindustry?
16:29<@Alberth>if programmed that way :p
16:30<drac_boy>oh ok thats a relief...I wanted to let the farms go anywhere where they wanted to
16:30<drac_boy>going to add variable snowlines anyhow ;)
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16:31<Eddi|zuHause>it's rather difficult to get farms above thesnow line (e.g. with alpine grf) because on game creation it's always january, so the snowline is at the lowest point
16:32<drac_boy>well I was also thinking about new farm building themself (or the player funded one) during the game but yeah you do have a point
16:32<@Alberth>Eddi|zuHause: you're at the wrong hemisphere :p
16:33<andythenorth>FIRS doesn't bother with seasonal production, it's silly
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16:33<andythenorth>unhelpful for gameplay
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16:34<drac_boy>well if you didn't like seasonal supplies then stick to something more 'dead' such as coal instead ;)
16:34<drac_boy>just a random suggestion heh
16:37<Eddi|zuHause>the "problem" is that the game doesn't offer management options for seasonal timetables
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16:37<drac_boy>I never cared too much for it then again my network style is quite different from most others so
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16:40<drac_boy>btw another thing re newgrf again if thats ok...
16:40<drac_boy>do you have to stick with one sprite or is it possible to like have two different sprites for one single bridge? like say it was sprite A when one tile long but sprite B when three tiles long? same id otherwise
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16:44<Sahri>I can't remember oil refineries were being built so close to the map's edge
16:45<Sahri>in TTD
16:45<Rubidium>they were even closer in TTD
16:45<TWerkhoven[l]>smaller maps maybe, so they didnt look so close?
16:45<Rhamphoryncus>Is there any way to expose an nml value for debugging? I'm in FEAT_CARGOS so there's no persistent registers, not that I could access them anyway. Only idea I have is to modify the openttd source, or maybe a gdb hook
16:46<Rhamphoryncus>drac_boy: I've seen bridges with multiple sprites
16:47<drac_boy>Rhamphoryncus hmm I'll think about trying it then thanks
16:47<Pikka>http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/Action0/Bridges#Bridge_Layouts drac_boy
16:48<drac_boy>wasn't sure if that was for the sprites too or not...but thanks
16:49<Sahri>Hmm, I think I should leave the oil derricks be till I have some faster engines at my disposal. The distance is just too big to make a profit
16:49<drac_boy>sahri what grf you using now?
16:49<Rhamphoryncus>Huh, so the repeated part is always 2 tiles long. Interesting
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16:51<Sahri>Suburban stations, dutch station set, swedish town name generator, city stations and spanish town names
16:51<Sahri>I admit, most of em are useless in this map but I'm too lazy to keep changing around GRFs
16:51<drac_boy>so unless I'm looking at it wrong I could had done my bridges like this? _A_ , _AA_ , _BBB_ where A is first sprite and B is second one
16:51<drac_boy>sahri so just original trains then?
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16:54<Sahri>Yeah
16:54<Sahri>I have seen the GRF fr the tropical map but since I already started a game I don't want to start over... again
16:54<Eddi|zuHause>drac_boy: i thought either _A_ _BB_ _BBB_ or _A_ _AA_ _ABA_
16:59<Eddi|zuHause>newgrf bridges are one of those seriously neglected parts
16:59<drac_boy>sahri heh well there is one thing I don't exactly like too much.. the MJS diesel in opengfx is not the same thing as the original MJS diesel :-/
16:59<drac_boy>its no longer a small cheap locomotive
17:00<drac_boy>eddi mm I'll have to think some more about this. and yeah you're right its a bit neglected
17:00<Sahri>The cargo acceptance for oil just baffled me
17:01<drac_boy>sahri you mean the refinery? it only accepts oil on like 1-2 tiles which I always did find a little strange sometimes
17:01<Sahri>I have to build a train/lorry station at the long side of the oil refinery or it won't accept anything, even if it is in the catchment area
17:01<Sahri>Oh
17:02<Sahri>Yeah it's illogical and it sounds like a bug that needs to be ironed out
17:02<Eddi|zuHause>it's by design
17:02<drac_boy>well its original behaviour .. if you didn't like it make a refineryfix.grf :)
17:02<drac_boy>heh
17:03<Eddi|zuHause>the power station also has that behaviour
17:04<Rhamphoryncus>Why though?
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17:06<Sahri>It's not like the game becomes unplayable because of this so I'll just let it be
17:10*drac_boy wonders if anyone has any explaination for why the MJS250 was changed big-time in opengfx
17:11<Pikka>because having an un-shortened short vehicle looks ugly?
17:11<Pikka>they only changed the appearance, opengfx is a base set and contains no stats changes
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17:14<drac_boy>hm well it looks weird hauling one or few wagons when a small locomotives look at home doing that. oh well
17:14<drac_boy>at least I don't have to use opengfx in my own maps so I'm not complaining
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17:18<drac_boy>eddi what made the steel mill accept passengers on one of its tile tho?
17:18<drac_boy>I never could really figure out the reasoning behind that original plan
17:18<Eddi|zuHause>i don't know what went through chris sawyer's head
17:19<drac_boy>heh heh
17:20<drac_boy>would you rate wool as a sensitive or insensitive cargo yourself?
17:21<Rhamphoryncus>The steel mill... accepts passengers? Surely a bug
17:22<Eddi|zuHause>it not only does accept passengers, it also makes steel out of them :p
17:23<supermop>people have to work there
17:23<drac_boy>eddi lol
17:23<Rhamphoryncus>riiiiigh
17:23<drac_boy>supermop so do the people at the mines/etc but these don't accept passengers
17:24<Eddi|zuHause>it's the legendary soylent green steel
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17:24<Pikka>I think you'll find it doesn't make steel out of them, eddi. it's just one of the tiles that accepts passengers.
17:25<Pikka>tile acceptance and industry acceptance are completely separate.
17:26<Eddi|zuHause>i don't think i ever actually tried it
17:29<drac_boy>hmm wonder how many different ground tile types there are now
17:30<Eddi|zuHause>42
17:31<Eddi|zuHause>grass, tundra, snow, rainforest, desert, halfdesert, halfsnow, quartersnow, threequartersnow, coast, with grid, without grid, opengfx, original. ...
17:32<drac_boy>I assume there's actually a list hopefully?
17:32<Eddi|zuHause>i don't think so
17:32<drac_boy>ic hm guess I'll have to check a few randomized maps later to determine then
17:33<Eddi|zuHause>you don't need to know of the ground tile, you can tell openttd to draw the default groundtile, and you draw your house/industry/object on a transparent background
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17:34<drac_boy>its not for that, its re replacing a few things especially the boulders-juttering tiles. thanks still
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17:38<drac_boy>not sure if it'll be through actionA or to actually redraw everything to match. but its too early to decide on that just yet
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17:50<Rhamphoryncus>I'm lost. Tried tracking through both from gdb and from nml; no luck. Where are newgrf temporaries stored?
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17:56<Eddi|zuHause>what's a newgrf temporary?
17:57<drac_boy>hm going stop for now, need to go out for supper soon :)
17:58<Rhamphoryncus>temporary register?
17:58<Rhamphoryncus>used in nml?
17:58<Eddi|zuHause>what do you want to do with those?
17:58<Rhamphoryncus>.. debug them?
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17:59<Eddi|zuHause>your best bet is grepping through newgrf*.cpp for them
17:59<Rhamphoryncus>Already did
18:00<Rhamphoryncus>Nothing in there is obvious
18:00<Eddi|zuHause>src/newgrf_spritegroup.h:static inline uint32 GetRegister(uint i) <-- ?
18:02<Rhamphoryncus>hrm. Missed the -i on that particular grep
18:03<Sahri>How can I have only a handful of paggengers in a city with a population of 1k+?
18:04<Rhamphoryncus>Ah, only in the .h. I had the .cpp open and searched it more thoroughly, which didn't find it
18:04<Sahri>assengers*
18:04<Sahri>passengers** I think I need to go to sleep =_=
18:04<Rhamphoryncus>Sahri: how much do your station tiles cover?
18:04<Sahri>It's a bus station
18:04<drac_boy>Rhamphoryncus better whats the station rating? ;)
18:04<Eddi|zuHause>Rhamphoryncus: inline functions must always be in the .h, otherwise it can't be inlined
18:05<Sahri>And you mean how many houses?
18:05<Rhamphoryncus>I've been told that the big bounding box only applies to deliveries. Picking up is based on individual tiles' catchment
18:05<Rhamphoryncus>Eddi: yeah, I understand that
18:07<Sahri>Ratings is 70%
18:08<Eddi|zuHause>Sahri: odd. usually people complain why there are 3000 passengers waiting at their bus station in a 1000 people town :p
18:09<Sahri>And when I moved it the ratings went down to 50%
18:09<drac_boy>well I'm going to eat :p
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18:09<Rhamphoryncus>Screenshot?
18:09<Sahri>I'll have to keep a raincheck on that
18:10<Sahri>I discarded the changes I made too because the result wasn't exactly satisfying
18:10<Sahri>weren't*
18:10<Sahri>Night folks
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18:52<drac_boy>hi
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18:59<xiong>What kind of version is (1.2.0?)?
19:00<Pikka>a stable version
19:01<Pikka>good for horses
19:01<xiong>Um, no, I don't think so.
19:01<drac_boy>heh
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19:02<xiong>I see it's really RC4, as expected. The blogish post is just too cute, at least for me.
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19:17<xiong>Is there something about TerraGenesis that causes towns to clump? Or do I have anything like a fair chance of an even distribution across the map?
19:17<xiong>I've gotten several maps with a clump of towns in one corner, none elsewhere.
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19:21<Eddi|zuHause>(why do i even bother reading the question?)
19:22<drac_boy>heh dunno
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19:27<xiong>From my (perhaps narrow) viewpoint, it's not entirely fair for me to play a map I've created deliberately. Part of the game is to contend with random factors. But I've started several maps over the last few years and they all seem a bit off. It's not just a few irregularities when all the towns are jammed into one corner.
19:29<xiong>I'm just saying I wouldn't be content playing a level flat map with towns and industries placed each by hand. It would be too mechanical. But I need some control over map generation. I'm going to the Scenario Editor, creating random landforms, and placing towns and industries at random. I'll just scatter excess towns and remove excess.
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20:21<xiong>Well, in the end, I only hit the random industries button once. It takes years to build up pax service, get out of debt, and have enough cash to start the steel chain. I'll let industries open as they please; should be interesting.
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20:24<DDR>I always leave 'getting out of debt' for later, when I can just ctrl-click the repay button and not notice the amount of money disappear.
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22:36<Rhamphoryncus>xiong: there are various forms of random distribution. Some make the points equidistant, some treat each point totally independently (which can result in clumps). I believe openttd uses the latter.
22:37<xiong>Well, the word "random", especially in the context of a deterministic computer program, is not entirely specific; I know.
22:37<Rhamphoryncus>Naw, it's fine
22:38<xiong>"Fine"? What's fine?
22:38<Rhamphoryncus>It's within the normal application of the word
22:38<xiong>I'm not a normal person.
22:39<xiong>Especially when words relate to math, science, or engineering I'm inclined to give them a technical meaning.
22:40<Rhamphoryncus>random has to do with being unpredictable. In cryptography that has very strong requirements. In a computer game it's much weaker
22:41<xiong>Let me put it this way. I don't expect much from a button in a computer game labeled "Random X".
22:41<Rhamphoryncus>heh, true enough
22:43<xiong>You might consider, on some Baysian grounds, a button that might do something rigidly deterministic to be more random than one designed to be unpredictable; since the operator has no way of knowing beforehand. So predictability is unpredictable.
22:43<Rhamphoryncus>eh, that's about wordplay, not game design
22:44<xiong>No no. Example: When I start a new game normally, the random seed is changed; so if I start several games each one has a different map. This leads me to expect that the New Game button contains a certain amount of randomness.
22:46<xiong>Now when I do a similar thing in the editor, choosing New Scenario, I come with a set of expectations... of more or less the same degree of randomness. But the random seed is not reset and I get exactly the same map as before. This confounds my expectations. So this is *more* random.
22:46<Rhamphoryncus>That's not the same usage of random
22:46<xiong>The more randomness does not last; I adjust my expectations. But for that one trial, greater randomness is displayed by doing something deterministic.
22:48<xiong>The true example of that kind of randomness is Flood Control Dam #3. Each time the game is played, no matter who plays it, the same controls do exactly the same thing. But for each new player, the behavior is utterly unpredictable and unexpected.
22:49<ToxicFrog>You seem to be using "random" here to actually mean "unpredictable without a priori knowledge of the system"
22:49<Rhamphoryncus>If someone spontaneously decides to take a trip you may say they're behaving randomly. That's one usage of random. A random number generator is a different usage, despite obviously being related.
22:49<xiong>That's an extreme case, so you're tempted to wave it away as a matter of perception. But if I have total knowledge of a pseudo-random number generator then it, too, is completely predictable.
22:50<ToxicFrog>Yes. Hence the "pseudo".
22:50<ToxicFrog>(also, a good PRNG satisfies statistical tests for randomness despite not being truly random; also also, the player is not expected to have this intimate knowledge of the PRNG state no matter how many times they play)
22:50<ToxicFrog>"Random" and "unexpected" are not the same thing.
22:51<xiong>So, with no exceptions of which I know, all computer game buttons labeled "Random do this" are either random (as in unpredictable in practice) or deterministic.
22:52<Rhamphoryncus>xiong: you're being overly literal of the definitions and losing the nuance of language
22:52<xiong>This is why I say, I don't come to such buttons with many expectations.
22:52<xiong>Rhamphoryncus, I thought I was just being questioned for my use of nuance.
22:53<ToxicFrog>You're being questioned because you're using the same word to mean two totally different things in the same conversation.
22:53<xiong>Two? I thought I was using it in at least four different ways. Sorry.
22:53<ToxicFrog>Aah, so you're trolling. kthen.
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22:54<xiong>Well, no. I was, at one time, asking if TerraGenesis deliberately clumped towns.
22:54<xiong>That's an intensely practical question.
22:56<xiong>The point of my discussion of the word "random" is that, in practice and unqualified, it has no meaning. So saying that town distribution is random is uninformative.
22:57*xiong licks ToxicFrog to see what happens
22:57<Rhamphoryncus>Actually "random distribution" is part of the jargon. It has a very specific meaning.
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---Logclosed Wed Apr 04 00:00:37 2012