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#openttd IRC Logs for 2012-04-06

---Logopened Fri Apr 06 00:00:49 2012
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00:40<Rhamphoryncus>Heya andy
00:40<Pikka>good morning andythenorth
00:40<Pikka>and Rhamphoryncus
00:41<Rhamphoryncus>How's it going?
00:44<Pikka>sounded like a freight train going past outside
00:44<Pikka>turned out to be a combination of an a320 flying overhead and a kid on a skateboard riding over cracks in the pavement.
00:46<andythenorth>did it have dice in the mirror?
00:47*andythenorth might attempt a little more napping
00:47<andythenorth>as the baby is now having one
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00:57<k-man>on osx, when i go full screen the mouse is very jerky
00:57<k-man>and the game feels a bit slow
00:58<Rhamphoryncus>k-man: osx needs a maintainer to volunteer
00:59<Rhamphoryncus>Bug reports can still help us fix bugs, but noone is looking preemptively, and it can be hard to do the fixes
00:59<k-man>Rhamphoryncus, ah ok
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01:40<k-man>whats the keyboard shortcut to toggle invisibility of buildings etc?
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01:51<Pikka>x, k-man
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02:52<Pikka>moin pranetmakel
02:54<@Terkhen>good morning
02:57<@planetmaker>hello Pikka, Terkhen :-)
03:03<k-man>how do i refit a cargo train to accept rubber once the train is in the depot?
03:03<@Terkhen>open the vehicle window and click on the refit button, it replaces the go to depot button when you are in a depot
03:06<k-man>Terkhen, thanks
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03:19<Eddi|zuHause>Pikka now turned into a japanese?
03:19<Pikka>how racist
03:20<Pikka>morning eddi
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06:06<CIA-1>OpenTTD: matthijs * r24095 /extra/catcodec/Makefile: [catcodec] -Fix: Use $(CPPFLAGS) from the environment when building
06:07<CIA-1>OpenTTD: matthijs * r24096 /extra/catcodec/Makefile: [catcodec] -Fix: make clean didn't remove src/rev.cpp
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06:28<@Alberth>hi die hi
06:31<drac_boy>who's die? :)
06:41<drac_boy>how're you alberth?
06:46<@Alberth>having lunch :)
06:49<drac_boy>just redoing vehicles list so it'll be a bit cleaner, changed some ideas too as well
06:50<drac_boy>otherwise...not much else except for breakfast later
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08:22<drac_boy>hi andy-from-up-north :)
08:22<drac_boy>heh heh
08:23<@Alberth>hi andy
08:28<drac_boy>how're you?
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08:45<Pikka>morning andythenorth
08:45<Pikka>depots are released into the wild :)
08:45<andythenorth>is it so :)
08:45<andythenorth>wild depots
08:45<andythenorth>free range
08:45<andythenorth>do they have a red tractor logo on them?
08:46<Pikka>how rare
08:47<Pikka>I wouldn't necessarily have picked it for a tractor if you hadn't told me
08:47<andythenorth>ho ho
08:47<andythenorth>nice depots
08:47<drac_boy>heh interesting depot graphics btw ... the lowerright one looks like it has platforms inside or is that just the floor?
08:47<Pikka>I had some nice sheds to work with, andy
08:48<Pikka>mostly floor, drac_boy, or whatever you like :)
08:48<andythenorth>Pikka: when is your industry set finished?
08:48<andythenorth>I'm totally bored with mine :P
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08:48<Pikka>I have no idea, andy
08:49<Pikka>once I get my bolg working I'm going to start posting up ideas for how the mines and farms are going to work
08:49<@planetmaker>FIRS is dead :-(
08:49<@planetmaker>no-one interested to continue working on it. Simple
08:51<andythenorth>he's kind of right
08:52<andythenorth>could be stasis rather than dead
08:52<andythenorth>whenever I try and fix a ticket I lose interest
08:52<@Alberth>zombie state :)
08:52<andythenorth>although planetmaker - when we both work on a ticket, it gets resolved...
08:52<andythenorth>but you seem to be busy and so do I
08:53<V453000>just leave it there for a while and return to it later ;)
08:53<@Alberth>for FIRS 2.0 :)
08:53<V453000>from my own relatively short experience in compare with you, I for example do something for nuts every day, but sometimes I also have to take a break for a week or so
08:54<V453000>I do not think it is possible to continuously do stuff still on and on
08:55<V453000>tak e a rest or do something else like chips and perhaps the taste for firs comes back after a while :)
08:55<andythenorth>but FIRS didn't release for over a year
08:55<andythenorth>or so
08:55<V453000>really? :o
08:55<andythenorth>maybe a bit less
08:56<andythenorth>less actually
08:56<drac_boy>V453000 some of the grfs are more or less casual weekend projects. takes a long time to get one step forward
08:57<V453000>I am making my trains set for almost a year drac_boy
08:57<V453000>but sure, I also made the logic engine update in about 2 hours :) small newGRFs are fun too
08:58<drac_boy>heh btw whats 'logic engine'?
08:58<andythenorth>basically with one toddler, one newborn baby, work, backache and codebase I don't understand....I can't make progress on FIRS
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08:59<V453000>firs is in quite a good shape atm though, isnt it?
08:59<drac_boy>as far as I recall, yeah
08:59<V453000>I mean, there isnt anything super urgent that needs doing
09:00<V453000>people like it already
09:03<oskari89>drac_boy: It's maglev which speed can be defined trough it's parameter 1 setting..
09:03<drac_boy>V453000 just wondering but what did you think of the uk industry grf?
09:03<oskari89>(I've got it 40000 kph) :)
09:04<andythenorth>FIRS has open bugs
09:04<drac_boy>oskari89 oh heh
09:05<V453000>drac_boy: the TAI has industries already? Or the PBI industries w/ the UKRS brick chain?
09:05<oskari89>But, if you want to have performance, you must use twice as much locomotives as wagons on your maglev train :P
09:05<oskari89>Especially when there's less distance between stations..
09:07*andythenorth does work
09:08<drac_boy>V453000 the PBI yeah
09:08<V453000>well ... I personally hate the fact that mines die for example
09:08<V453000>and I always just use multiple factories to overcome the capacity cap
09:08<drac_boy>V453000 theres a few things I just really don't like at all, at least I don't have to use it at all so I'm not complaining
09:09<V453000>well the saving grace is that forests and farms dont die :D
09:09<drac_boy>two main things were: low input limit, the steel mill is just too difficult to use most of the times
09:10<drac_boy>I mean, look at it.. coal mines often outstrip ore mines most of the times when it comes to output yet the steel mill just 'seem' to assumes that a perfect 1:1 ratio nonstop is possible otherwise
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09:11<Ricaz>How do you disable aircraft server-side?
09:12<V453000>yeah, the steel mill is really ridiculous :)
09:12<V453000>Ricaz: set max_aircraft 0
09:12<drac_boy>ricaz just set it to zero, that disables airports as well unless you had that (forgot exact label) 'enable stations without vehicles' option on
09:14<drac_boy>V453000 btw just asking but do you think a steel mill should be able to work with only ore alone but have better output when coal is also added as well?
09:15<drac_boy>just in theory that is
09:16<V453000>I do not quite know, I think it is great how firs does it - if you deliver both, you get a reward of more steel. If you deliver just one, you dont
09:16<V453000>but making it totally require some X:Y of cargoes is quite stupid
09:16<drac_boy>heh yeah I agree, having mutal 1-or-1+1=out is better than a rigid 1+1=out
09:17<V453000>but it depends a lot, some people love to manage train counts etc
09:17<V453000>I for example rather develop some mechanism which makes the network more automated and fail-proof
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09:27<drac_boy>hmm just wondering but is there no deutsch term for the like of 'hopper wagon' or similar? for coal etc yeah
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09:56<+michi_cc>drac_boy: Official generic term: "Offene Güterwagen mit Schwerkraftentladung", with specialisation of Trichterwagen, Sattelwagen and Seitenkippbare Wagen.
09:57<+michi_cc>A coal hopper would normally be a Sattelwagen (== contents can only be dumped at whole).
10:01<drac_boy>thanks michi_cc the terms Trichterwagen and Sattelwagen were what I was trying to look for, cheers :)
10:07<lugo>i'm puzzled, how did handrake get his patchpack to compile
10:08<lugo>throws erros for me on linux and win32
10:13<andythenorth>ottd src is available in git and svn and hg?
10:14<frosch123>trunk is available in those three, yes
10:14<frosch123>branches and releases are only svn
10:16<andythenorth>how are they synchronised?
10:16<andythenorth>in say...two line explanation?
10:16<frosch123>svn is the master
10:17<frosch123>the rest pulls from svn
10:18<frosch123>there are various svn->hg and svn->git bridges. no idea which ones ottd uses
10:18<andythenorth>is there a cron job or commit hook or such?
10:18<frosch123>but they are triggered by the svn post commit hook
10:18<drac_boy>allright looks like my initial vehicles list is much smaller...thats much better
10:21<andythenorth>SAC has such an ability to unintentionally make dramas
10:21<+michi_cc>Branches and releases are available in my personal git copy, but indeed not in the "official" git repo.
10:22<frosch123>andythenorth: the post commit hook triggers all kind of stuff: hg, git, wt3, cia, dorpsgek, ...
10:22<andythenorth>k thanks
10:23<frosch123>oh, and the regression compile farm ofc
10:23<oskari89>Are there any drawers lurking around?
10:23<drac_boy>what kind of drawers?
10:23<oskari89>Locomotive :)
10:24<andythenorth>I have some drawers in my cabinet
10:24<drac_boy>oskari hm well which kind?
10:24<andythenorth>and in my kitchen
10:24<drac_boy>andythenorth lol
10:26<oskari89>The second one, KDh1 needs a little shading and corrections :P
10:28<oskari89>drac_boy: Could you help me on that?
10:28<drac_boy>I'll admit it looks a bit strange like it has fat ends
10:28<drac_boy>and hmm not sure I could help much for the next few days sorry. if you still can't find anyone else by then I could look at it
10:29<oskari89>Anyone else?
10:30<drac_boy>was that thing supposed to be some sort of single-unit mainline freight locomotive?
10:30<drac_boy>since theres no platforms or anything
10:31<drac_boy>btw the KDh2 shunting locomotive is kinda my favorite kind of locomotive...something about them looking happy at any task small or large :)
10:32<drac_boy>not to mention less of that many of them were hydraulic too :p
10:36<drac_boy>oskari89 that reminds me, do you have the Dv-something (or was it another letter?) diesel-hydraulic B'B' locomotive that was last year finally all removed for good?
10:37<Eddi|zuHause>i need a setting: "if more than X days late, skip one roundtrip"
10:37*drac_boy remember seeing it in the Today's Railway Europe magazine at some point
10:37<drac_boy>heh eddi still stuck up with that same problem yet?
10:37<Eddi|zuHause>well, not this exact problem, but a generic one
10:40<drac_boy>oskari89 yeah I found it.. Dv12 and a quick check of page 23 suggests you apparently have it
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10:47<drac_boy>oskari89 is there like a tracking table yet?
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11:07<oskari89>Yes there is.
11:10<drac_boy>looking now :)
11:10<oskari89>Dv12's are nearly all going yet :)
11:11<oskari89>Only about 10 of original 192 are scrapped now :P
11:12<oskari89>But Dv16 has been removed few years back, was it 2009 or so..
11:12<oskari89>Only one exists for museum service :P
11:12<drac_boy>I kind of liked them but then it may be more to do with me liking anything between 2ft to 4ft as long as its capable basically
11:12<oskari89>It was 2008.
11:13<drac_boy>well...I do admit that there are some private gauges that are just a little over 4ft but they're very rare so not bothered :P
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11:14<drac_boy>I see you have a nice variety of steamers for 1920+ .. not too bad :)
11:14<oskari89>Yes and diesels too :)
11:15<drac_boy>btw I may have been thinking of the Dv16 ..but to me they look so identical tho :)
11:16<drac_boy>the photo they showed in the magazine was of a locomotive 'train' .. with only one under power. heading for scrap I guess
11:16<oskari89>Hmm, wait a sec..
11:17<oskari89> These were Dv12 :P
11:18<drac_boy>from a quick look at the freight wagon list I assume that its not completed without using some of the original wagons as fill-in yet?
11:19<oskari89>Well, Freight gets some stuff yet :P
11:19<drac_boy>heh :)
11:20<oskari89>And so do electrics..
11:21<oskari89>Some planned but not built stuff :)
11:21<oskari89> On the infra-side, there's a little more to do :)
11:21<drac_boy>mm I might give it a try when theres enough to build a railroad with allright? :)
11:22<drac_boy>ah well the stations and tracks always can wait a bit longer..just use newstat in its place for now
11:22<drac_boy>not a perfect idea I know but...trains first :P
11:23<oskari89>Yes that is true.
11:23<oskari89>But there's already tracks available :)
11:23<oskari89>And signals too.
11:25<oskari89>And FooBar does code those interlocking and station buildings after a while..
11:26<oskari89>Just waiting for as to release grf which he has been coding..
11:26<oskari89>(Finnish Trainset)
11:27<drac_boy>michi_cc you still around btw?
11:30<+michi_cc>No :)
11:34<drac_boy>michi_cc if you don't mind a second request. would it had been Expresszug or a different one for high speed trains in general? (not just ICE .. i always did wonder why they used an english name there)
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11:36<+michi_cc>The generic term in the past was Schnellzug, but that doesn't mean they were high-speed in today's sense, just the fastest kind of trains back then.
11:38<@Alberth>as usual with advertising :)
11:38<drac_boy>michi_cc heh well thats what I really needed still. thanks :)
11:43<Eddi|zuHause>drac_boy: english was considered "fancy" when they introduced them
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11:50<oskari89>Fancy is currenly "in" in VR :P
11:51<drac_boy>think I'm going take another break from this table soon
11:51<oskari89>*fancy english
11:51<oskari89>Such as 1st class/Business class -> Ekstra (Extra), and 2nd class -> Eko (Economy)...
11:52<oskari89>Why it can't be just 1st and 2nd class..
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11:53<drac_boy>heh no idea :)
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11:56<drac_boy>oskari89 btw what would you consider proper 'class' if it was your own train creations?
11:56<drac_boy>just wondering ;)
11:57<oskari89>Well, that depends what i would be creating :)
11:57<drac_boy>for me it would be like this...
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11:59<drac_boy>economy = cloth seat with reasonable cushions and decent leg spaces .... table = same as economy but facing seats with fixed table in middle obviously ... luxury = leather seats with deep cushions of some sort and additional services from conductor discreetly
12:00<oskari89>Ok, i don't know what if it was my own.. :P
12:08<drac_boy>I'm going for lunch so bye :p
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12:17<andythenorth>planetmaker: for example we could probably fix this one if we both looked at it:
12:18<andythenorth>my guess is it's just a small logical error somewhere
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12:30<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: could be returning a 0 in the wrong place?
12:31<andythenorth>that's my guess
12:31<andythenorth>I can't get my brain around the nested conditions yet
12:31<andythenorth>not enough codeine today :P
12:34<andythenorth>I don't take it for more than a day without another day's break
12:34<andythenorth>because I don't want to be dependent
12:34<Eddi|zuHause>i don't think that's how it works :p
12:34<andythenorth>and when I don't take it, I can't function :P
12:34<andythenorth>how do you spell 'dependent' again? :P
12:35<andythenorth>my friend slipped two discs in his back due to working long shifts at [unnamed electronic game making monlith]
12:35<andythenorth>he was addicted to morphine for 18 months and needed methadone to get off it
12:36*andythenorth doesn't fancy that much
12:38<supermop>funny you should bring that up andythenorth, i've had golden brown by the stranglers stuck in my head all day
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12:42<andythenorth>now I will too :P
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13:35<andythenorth>can a CC-BY-NC-ND grf be placed on bananas by someone other than original author?
13:35*andythenorth should just read ToS
13:36<andythenorth>1. seems to cover it :P
13:36<Rubidium>exactly ;)
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13:43<andythenorth>stupid INFRA related dramas yet again
13:44<@planetmaker>INFRA. not ULTRA
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13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: translators * r24097 /trunk/src/lang/latvian.txt:
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: latvian - 14 changes by Parastais
13:48<Wolf01><andythenorth> stupid INFRA related dramas yet again <- no, not again...
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14:01<andythenorth>I don't have rights to edit a typo here
14:01<andythenorth>'server' not 'sever'
14:03<@planetmaker>and indeed: it's a somewhat write-protected wiki page :-)
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14:08<frosch123>pff, updating 6 monhts of widelands repo pulls 160 MB
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14:23<@planetmaker>people really don't understand how newgrfs and savegames work. and how bananas work. Not even mods like Hyronymus
14:23<andythenorth>there's quite a bit some mods don't understand :P
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14:23<FLHerne>How do they work then? :P
14:23<andythenorth>there's quite a bit andythenorth doesn't understand too though :D
14:24<@planetmaker>there's a lot I don't understand, too ;-)
14:24<Pikka>you can't tell the difference between margarine
14:24<@planetmaker>FLHerne: for once: NewGRFs are part of a savegame and cannot be removed therefrom. Thus every newgrf should remain available in every version released once
14:24<@planetmaker>to be able to load that savegame henceforth
14:25<@planetmaker>you'll always need the very exact same version to ensure successful loading. Updated NewGRFs won't cut it
14:25<@planetmaker>I don't even trust myself to successfully declare compatibility there ;-)
14:25<@planetmaker>without failure ever
14:26<@planetmaker>for 2nd, bananas offers those old versions only when needed by a savegame. Otherwise you always get the newest
14:26<andythenorth>planetmaker: I'm about to reply in that thread
14:26<@planetmaker>I won't
14:26<andythenorth>but maybe it is about to require a split :P
14:27<frosch123>post a topic in the forum suggestions: ban sac and all of her content :p
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14:27<@planetmaker>hard-code "disable newgrf" for those IDs :-P
14:27<Pikka>maybe it's about to require being wrapped in chains and thown off a ship in the middle of the atlantic ocean at 3am, andythenorth
14:28<frosch123>3am only?
14:28<Pikka>it's the best time
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14:28<Pikka>others will do at a pinch
14:29<@planetmaker>but I replied ;-)
14:31<andythenorth>the simple fact of improving Bananas is "It can't be done"
14:31<andythenorth>there is no repeatable build for it
14:31<andythenorth>no staging environment
14:31<andythenorth>no development environment
14:31<andythenorth>little chance of building one realistically
14:31<@planetmaker>I mostly think she's totally unaware that bananas website is not what it's about. And never saw the search button in the newgrf list to search for keywords
14:31<@planetmaker>from ingame
14:32<andythenorth>oh I ignore SAC mostly, except when she's driving a bus through what licenses mean
14:32<@planetmaker>like 'planes' and I get all aircraft newgrf
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14:32<andythenorth>hyronymous is the target of my comments wrt bananas
14:32<@planetmaker>or 'NARS' or 'Pikka' to get those or whatever
14:32<andythenorth>SAC is as SAC does
14:32<andythenorth>pikka pikka pikka pikka
14:32<Pikka>if orudge hadn't posted in the thread I'd have hit the "everyone back to their own beds" button long ago
14:33<frosch123>yeah, but the search has no option to exclude certain keywords
14:33<frosch123>like !andy
14:33<andythenorth>anyway, this is not getting any revenue-earning or cost-saving work done at 7.30pm on a bank holiday
14:33*andythenorth goes back to pondering customer records and improved GUIs
14:34<andythenorth>SAC is an 'artist'
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14:34<andythenorth>therefore it has to be excused, that for, example, she can't understand things (licenses)
14:34<@planetmaker>should go on-stage.
14:34<@planetmaker>Greek tragedy.
14:34<andythenorth>why does she use her own site? Instead of DeviantArt with all the other emo-drama people?
14:35*andythenorth is being mean, that's actually bad
14:35<andythenorth>kittens will die
14:35*andythenorth doesn't like being mean, it tastes all wrong
14:35<Pikka>but so fun
14:35<andythenorth>oh good MB turned up in the thread :)
14:35<andythenorth>now all we need is DaleStan
14:35<Pikka>perhaps we should have a rule that nothing gets posted in the "graphics release" forum unless it's on bananas
14:36<andythenorth>can we also make it GPL? :P
14:36<andythenorth>oh noes, you broke that one :P
14:36<@planetmaker>*That* actually is a good idea, pikka
14:36<Pikka>GPL is silly andy
14:36<andythenorth>can we make it 'GPL unless you're Pikka' ?
14:36<andythenorth>yours are the only grfs with an excuse
14:36<andythenorth>nah, he violates copyright
14:37<Pikka>because I shamelessly rip bits of the TTD graphics, yes
14:37<@planetmaker>so would george
14:37<andythenorth>pointless doing GPL
14:37<Pikka>still, doesn't stop some people
14:37<@planetmaker>thus he has a very valid excuse, too
14:37<@planetmaker>and we have no excuse to keep openttd.grf
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15:05*andythenorth contemplates uploading this new foundations thing to his own site
15:05<andythenorth>just for amusant
15:05<Pikka>anyway, should I lock the thread?
15:05<Pikka>that way I get to have the last word har har
15:05<andythenorth>poor old PaulC
15:06<andythenorth>he's a sound chap
15:06<andythenorth>he doesn't deserve this :)
15:06<Pikka>oh well
15:06<Pikka>next time he'll know
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15:07<andythenorth>if you lock it, all kinds of drama :)
15:07<andythenorth>anyway, I thought SAC had already said 'goodbye' to tt-forums at least once
15:07<Pikka>drama from whom, though?
15:08<andythenorth>dramatis personae
15:08<Pikka>oh well
15:08<Pikka>it's only going to go downhill no matter what
15:08<andythenorth>it's not really a release is it, if you have to go somewhere and register
15:09<andythenorth>it's more like an advert
15:09<andythenorth>for a members only service
15:09<andythenorth>and they're probably banned, as spam :)
15:09<Pikka>well I wouldn't go that far.
15:09<andythenorth>this is why I will never be a mod
15:09<andythenorth>I lack diplomacy :P
15:10<andythenorth>or reason
15:11<andythenorth>also squirrels
15:11<andythenorth>I lack squirrels
15:11<andythenorth>one came in the garden the other day, but that was uncommon
15:12<Pikka>an uncommon squirrel
15:12<Pikka>how rare
15:13<andythenorth>rare is almost a synonym for uncommon
15:13<andythenorth>almost, but not always
15:13<andythenorth>for those who are not native English speakers, please don't order an uncommon steak
15:13<andythenorth>I thought I should mention that, as a service
15:14<andythenorth>also, really WTF
15:17<@Alberth>andythenorth: with an invalid license, the whole license becomes invalid, so sac has no rights anymore whatsoever
15:17<@Alberth>s/license/CC rule/
15:17<Pikka>what Alberth
15:18<andythenorth>I thought that first, but it's not true
15:18<andythenorth>rights of copyright holder are upheld
15:19<Pikka>I'm pretty sure if she owns the copyright and the licence is invalid, that no-one except SAC has any rights whatsoever.
15:19<andythenorth>everyone else is potentially violating copyright
15:19<andythenorth>oh what larfs
15:19<@Alberth>ah, that makes sense, didn't think of that
15:19<andythenorth>none of this gets pixels drawn :)
15:19<@Alberth>neither does my text get longer or better :)
15:20<@Alberth>let's go to work instead :)
15:21*andythenorth does
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15:22<Pikka>boo, I got bumped to page 3
15:24<Pikka>the tone was definitely turning nasty though
15:24<Pikka>I await PMs :)
15:24<andythenorth>I used smilies :)
15:24<andythenorth>not enough smiley use in the world imo
15:24<Pikka>smileys make everything okay :)
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15:36<@planetmaker>21:24 andythenorth: not enough smiley use in the world imo <-- oh yes, you're sadly so right
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16:14*Rubidium wonders whether drac_boy lives near Montreal
16:15<drac_boy>if you don't mind a 2-6 hours drive at times theres probably your answer? :)
16:17<Rubidium>so that's a no ;)
16:17<drac_boy>how're you anyway? :P
16:18<Rubidium>I'm fine
16:19<Rubidium>in 2 hours you can get to roughly 90% of my country from my home by car
16:19<drac_boy>heh small country in the middle of big countries I take it? :)
16:20<@Alberth>fast car :)
16:20<Rubidium>south is smaller, east is bigger, west and north are significantly wetter and mostly populated by fish (and lost fossil fuel drilling platforms)
16:23<MNIM>the netherlands?
16:24<Rubidium>douze pointe
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16:26<drac_boy>humm got a locomotive related question as usual...
16:27<drac_boy>for electric locomotives that have coupled trucks (with the chassis just simply floating on top) instead would it had been considered a BB or B'B'?
16:28<@planetmaker>hi supermop
16:29<drac_boy>hi plant-creator ;) heh heh
16:29<drac_boy>just joking :p
16:29<supermop>i just bought a bike
16:30*andythenorth does win at working
16:30<supermop>pretty sure im going to die on this thing
16:31<andythenorth>pedal or motor?
16:31<supermop>a track bike
16:31<supermop>bianchi pista
16:31<supermop>i am thinking of getting a early 70s honda CL though
16:33<supermop>but i don't have a motorcycle license or garage at the moment so its a chicken and egg problem
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17:16<Rhamphoryncus>Anybody know what last_computed_result does? Is it the decision-expression of the current switch?
17:23<oskari89>Wha, did/does SAC's stolen trees disappear from BaNaNaS?
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17:34<oskari89>I think that to meet SAC's demands for "correct BaNaNas", the window could have integrated GRFCrawler window or so..
17:37<oskari89>Or could have subcategories drop-menu, which are defined when someone uploads them on BaNaNaS..
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18:05<@Terkhen>good night
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19:17<Eddi|zuHause><drac_boy> for electric locomotives that have coupled trucks (with the chassis just simply floating on top) instead would it had been considered a BB or B'B'? <- BB if fixed, B'B' if movable, B+B if separable
19:17<Eddi|zuHause>damn, he's already gone
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19:36<drac_boy>is it about 1kW=1.36hp or does the game use a different ratio internally?
19:57<drac_boy>assuming so then
20:04-!-roadt [~roadt@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
20:05<Snail_>drac_boy: there's also the "BoBo" case when each axle has an engine of its own
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20:07<drac_boy>Snail_ you mean like four small genset-sized engines onboard rather than one large powerplant?
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20:08<Snail_>well, if we speak of electrics, most of the modern ones have as many engines as there are axles
20:08<Snail_>for diesels, the thing is a bit different
20:09<drac_boy>which of that reminds me, at least one or more of the older uk diesels were twin-engine with with seperate front/rear truck drives. could be a little amusing if one engine was knocked out leaving you with only 2 axles for traction than four
20:10<drac_boy>and yeah electrics are different, they can do whatever they want to limited by the size of the wires
20:11<Snail_>wow! were those locos diesel-electric or diesel-hydraulic?
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20:15<drac_boy>the usa GG1 as I think I recall had three transformers, each served their own four traction motors.. so considering its 2-C-C-2 axles arrangement that meant transformer A drove the first two axles.. and C drove the last two axles while B drove the two seperate middle ones
20:15<drac_boy>that was a total of 12 motors yeah
20:16<Snail_>so theoretically it was a 2 CoCo 2
20:16<drac_boy>as for diesel-hydraulic or diesel-electric I don't even remember, you'll have to really ask someone from uk instead :)
20:17<drac_boy>I do know that the Budd RDC had it a bit more 'versiable' (not sure I spelled that right?) ....
20:18<drac_boy>it was like two diesel-hydraulic engines under the belly.. each drove their own truck and there was a simple (not as simple as just an on/off switchbar but you get the idea I guess tho) disconnection in case only one or even both engines were offline
20:19<drac_boy>although rebuilds usually resulted in one single powerful plant for both trucks on the other hand
20:20<drac_boy>snail_ mind you rebuilt or not these RDC could go at quite a blast speed if the tracks were in good shape :P
20:20<Snail_>really? where were they used?
20:21<drac_boy>well it was called Rail Diesel Coach/Car for a good reason .. cheap low cost. so they could go just about anywhere except northeast usa (where long yet full trains often ruled, you know)
20:22<drac_boy>sometimes you could actually have these cases where you had a Y shaped route ... get a normal little train of one or two F7 and a few coaches... then throw in the freerolling rdc on the tail ... at the last 'shared' station the rdc comes off and starts up then heads off on its own light leg while the normal train continues onward
20:22<drac_boy>made sense if the 2nd leg didn't have enough loads to warrent a normal train
20:23<drac_boy>that make sense to you Snail_?
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20:26<Snail_>yep, like a train with 2 destinations, and the tail splits from the rest of the consist at the fork statin
20:27<drac_boy>there are some photos of such consist with odd mash of rdc's in them :)
20:27<Snail_>wow! must be fun to see
20:28<drac_boy>Snail_ the more unusual one I just about recall seeing a photo of tho was that B&O had two rdc's that ran alone on their own on a 600 miles route. must had been really worthy connections to retain such a schedule with only the single units themself
20:29<drac_boy>I mean can you imagine 600 miles of occassional halts with <100 seat capacity the whole way? :)
20:30<drac_boy>Snail_ which of that reminds me of one thing that seem to be quite specific to uk and I just don't quite understand it. you ever heard of 'slip coaches'?
20:30<Snail_>600 miles with a single unit consist? :O
20:31<Snail_>which cities were they connecting?
20:31<drac_boy>not sure, its on B&O so it was around the east coast near north
20:31<Snail_>nope, never heard of slip coaches
20:33<drac_boy>well as far as I know, 'slip coaches' are basically self-brakeable coaches with rapid uncoupling. what happens is as the express train passes the signal (or some other landmark to place the distance spot) the rear placed slip coach is cut off... and as the train fly past the station nonstop the slowing slip coach actually comes to a stop there
20:33<drac_boy>and usually picked up by a local train on a following schedule whether its in same direction or not
20:34<drac_boy>seem like a crazy way to save time between main endpoints for the express train itself :)
20:35<Snail_>wow! never heard of it. Sounds like it must be timed dead right to make it work well though...
20:35<drac_boy>and Snail_ some express trains actually slip-ped twice or a few times depending on the route and schedule
20:35<Snail_>or at least there should be a brakeman in the slip coach to make sure it stops right at the station
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20:36<drac_boy>yeah I think they did use some kind of manual brakes...because as I recall if there was any kind of vision restriction (fogs usually) the train had to actually make a full halt and just try eat up the delays enroute
20:36<drac_boy>obviously they did not want to slip when they couldn't clearly see the stations
20:38<drac_boy>Snail_ mind you whether fog slowed down the running time or not slipping was sometimes an effective way to carry more passengers without needing to book a larger locomotive
20:39<Snail_>because a larger train needed to be pulled only for part of the journey?
20:39<Snail_>like, the train became lighter and lighter as it slipped away more carriages...
20:39<drac_boy>eg if an Atlantic was rated for oh I dunno 300 tons over the route and most of the early leg is relatively flat then they could put 380 tons instead knowing that the tail 80 tons would be slipped enroute
20:40<drac_boy>btw even then even if a train did not have slip coaches you still sometimes could have these moments where a pilot is used on short hilly stretches
20:41<drac_boy>and for the record it wasn't too rare to have small locomotives help the A4 Mallard as crazy as that may sound to some people :)
20:42<drac_boy>one photo I know I've seen was of an A4 Mallard hauling express fish train while being pilot by a 4-4-0. that sure says something about needing a few more ounce of traction to keep to the fast schedule? :)
20:43<drac_boy>I imagine the fish were located in through-brake express goods vans to be behind an A4 after all
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20:44<drac_boy>Snail_ you interested in an unusual steam locomotive tender? :)
20:45<Snail_>wow! an old 4-4-0 helping a mallard :)
20:45<Snail_>sure! I actually know of a few Italian steamers that had strange tenders
20:45<drac_boy>Snail_ well quite a number of 4-4-0 were known to be express locomotives with large drive wheels so
20:46<Snail_>for instance the Class 470's was basically a 2-axle mail van, since the engine itself had a small compartment to keep coal in (almost like a tank engine)
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20:46<Snail_>yes, but in the older times... 4-4-0 started becoming obsolete around the 1920s
20:46<drac_boy>and btw Snail_ guess what kind of tender takes some of the exhaust from the pistons upfront and cool it down back into water to extend the water range? :)
20:47<Snail_>never heard of such a tender...
20:47<drac_boy>they were call condensing tender as thats what it was .. turn some of the free hot steam back into warm water
20:48<drac_boy>africa had a few of them .. and its not just that but even germany (for being a small non-tropical country eh?) had at least two classes that used them too
20:49<Snail_>interesting, which classes were they?
20:50<drac_boy>so in theory if the tender had a 60 gallon water capacity then you take a little (say 4 gallon of water and 6 tons of coal less) out to make space for the condensing gears ... you then theriocally could get more than 80 gallons out of the same locomotive after all (assuming it was a long run to have that much steam to condense)
20:50<drac_boy>sometimes it made more sense than trying to build remote water towers after all
20:51<Snail_>right, especially in less-frequented lines
20:51<drac_boy>easy way to tell if a steam locomotive has condensing tender, there's radiators and fans cladded into the tender shell
20:51<Snail_>assuming the costs of a more complex tender offset those of building new water towers
20:53<drac_boy> heres a model but even then the real thing would still look too obvious
20:54<drac_boy>some had the fans located on sides instead but its still the same concept otherwise
20:54<drac_boy>and yeah this model is a good one, it shows the tender-return steam pipe lines
20:56<drac_boy>Snail_ mind you certain locomotives also had the safety valve rerouted into the condenser so if you kept firing it too hot for a long time you wouldn't hear the usual nonstop hiss but you'll probably hear the tender fans running nonstop tho :)
20:56<drac_boy>not sure why they decided to do that so, don't ask me
20:56<Rhamphoryncus>I read up on condensers recently. I think they retained 80-90% of the water
20:57<Snail_>wow! pretty impressive
20:57<drac_boy>Rhamphoryncus yeah I wouldn't be too surprised..I guess the small loss would be from pipe evaporation into the cooler air
20:57<Rhamphoryncus>But it was complicated, required lots of maintenance, and the technology was slow to mature
20:57<Snail_>of course... and were they mounted on simple expansion locos? or compounds too?
20:58<Rhamphoryncus>They also required an exhaust fan on the flue, which was a big part of the problem
20:58<Snail_>if compounds, they should have taken the steam from the low pressure cylinders, so perhaps their performance would not have been so great (more dissipation)
20:58<drac_boy>Rhamphoryncus I know of at least one railroad having partially stripped their condensing tenders and put a simple cylinder water tank together with modified coal bunker frame in its place instead. obviously they liked the loco but didn't quite want the tenders as-is so much
20:58<Rhamphoryncus>The technology came too late is my impression
20:59<drac_boy>Rhamphoryncus I wouldn't be too surprised if a live steam modeller could actually build one for real. who knows if the smaller scale would help or not
21:00<Rhamphoryncus>It needed another generation or two to hit sufficient maturity, and only then could you actually remove all the extra water stops from normal lines
21:00<Rhamphoryncus>And diesel came around
21:00<drac_boy>I do know that one example of a triplex steam locomotive was a total flop (the big boiler was still too insufficent to raise enough pressure) .. but yet I know someone actually built a live steam scale version of it and was pushing at least 400psi through its boiler. and it actually really worked
21:01<drac_boy>400psi would had been WAY too high to try do on a real scale (190-240psi was the norm at the time for large locomotives)
21:01<Rhamphoryncus>A condensing locomotive done today would be easy to get right
21:02<drac_boy>if there was one thing that at least did get off to a good was thanks to a particular swiss man...mallets anyone? :)
21:02<Rhamphoryncus>Hell, it'd be off the shelf technology
21:02<Rhamphoryncus>You may not *see* steam locomotives anymore, but they still exist, just in stationary forms
21:04<Rhamphoryncus>The Rankine cycle and whatnot
21:06<drac_boy>I may be wrong but I think the garrat was probably the best form of rail steam locomotive that you could recreate. it may have six or eight drive axles but it was still nimble around sharp curves as it had little overhang (save for a bit on the inside side of a curve)
21:06<drac_boy>and the fuels acted as traction weight (unlike with normal tender locomotives) too
21:08<drac_boy>as for stationary steam....there's alway steam heating too btw...even for older houses with concrete-backed floors as well
21:09<drac_boy>newer radiant heating are now usually some kind of heat-holding fluids pumped through electric or oil heaters tho
21:09<Rhamphoryncus>Garratt looks like a nice design, in a "face only a mother could love" kind of way ;)
21:09<drac_boy>heh heh
21:10<drac_boy>well I don't care for the look .. I just like it running :p
21:10<drac_boy>if you want something small .. just look up the beyers-peacock K1 ... it was basically only a 0-4-0+0-4-0 ... so it could do just about anything even squeal around very sharp village street ;)
21:10<Rhamphoryncus>It looks like a fairly small locomotive. Is that just because the boiler is separate?
21:12<drac_boy>what 'small' you looking at btw?
21:13<Rhamphoryncus>I never said small ;)
21:13<Rhamphoryncus>I'd claim I'm asleep but I'm not
21:14<drac_boy>heh well the africa garratt might look like it had a shorty boiler but it sure had a large firebox still so that wasn't too much problem .. they were not meant to run that fast anyhow..they could haul very long trains tho
21:14<drac_boy>doubleheading wasn't too unheard of... thats 16 drive axles on one train :p
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21:15<Rhamphoryncus>I'm spoiled by the big boy
21:15<drac_boy>heh well it was not really the biggest but thats up for 'careful' debate tho :p
21:16<drac_boy>just as much as that the BR05 really holds the speed record as it didn't have any downslope help ;)
21:17<Rhamphoryncus>Point is that garratt looks tiny in comparison
21:18<drac_boy>well Rhamphoryncus I'm sure that a french sedan would look 'small' compared to an american sedan :)
21:18<Snail_>well, I'm spoiled by André Chapelon :)
21:18<Snail_>his 242A was probably the best steamer ever made... so efficient ad powerful
21:19<Snail_>it even beat any existing electric of the time
21:19<drac_boy>afk for a while anyhow (and if you're gone Rhamphoryncus then see you another time for more random discussions :P )
21:19<Rhamphoryncus>interesting random thing:
21:29<Rhamphoryncus>wikipedia lists the bigboy as the heaviest.
21:31<Rhamphoryncus>And the Iore as the highest HP (for a pair)
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21:44<drac_boy>so what you doing Snail_?
21:46<Snail_>now? coding a few trains for my set :)
21:46<Snail_>these ones: (sorry, link is in French)
21:46<Snail_>but you can still see some pics
21:48<drac_boy>some sort of french light rail trainset?
21:49<drac_boy>didn't take long to guess that its narrow gauge because of the odd "skinny-tall" look :)
21:51<Snail_>yes, I'm working on the narrow gauge part of the French set
21:53<drac_boy>lol I actually had that thread noted since I wanted to note how someone else would draw NG wagons just so I had some idea of dimensions for mine
21:55<Snail_>well, my scale is similar as SG, but I draw the vehicles to be narrower (duh)
21:55<drac_boy>btw french reminds me of a story in a recent modeller magazine...
21:55<Snail_>so the diagonal views are missing a few sprites w.r.t. the normal size
21:55<drac_boy>it was an article on a french/switzerland border railroad that had one unique thing...
21:55<Snail_>*a few pixels, not sprites... sorry
21:56<Snail_>wow! which one?
21:56<Snail_>st. gervais - vallorcine which then continued to the martigny-châtelard Swiss line?
21:57<drac_boy>rather than building slow ineffective rack rails for the steep route...the man thought of something quite unusual...every single rolling stock were powered ... eventually later it was caluculated that for each three powered there could be one unpowered and a few extra wagons were built that way
21:57<Snail_>yes! it's the line I mentioned :)
21:57<drac_boy>now the line is worked by a 'normal' 2-unit (with special gangways to allow it to work the sharp curves) electric trainset
21:57<Snail_>the first rolling stock was the Z200 and it was made by powered wagons that could transport anything
21:58<drac_boy>yeah, btw the photos showed that even the unpowered wagons still had pickup shoes on them for obvious electrical purposes...especially carriage lights
21:58<Snail_>it's fun you mentioned it. The original rolling stock for that line is already drawn and coded in my set
21:58<drac_boy>still, that was the first and probably only time I have ever heard of self-powered "trains"
22:00<drac_boy>btw Snail_ that thing that is id as #23 in the first post of yours .. is that one of these few examples of a railbus hauling a "road trailer"?
22:00<drac_boy>i always found these a bit amusing..looking like a road bus+trailer running on rails instead .. even if the hitch was not always the same type used tho
22:01<drac_boy>btw even the DB 'Pig' sometimes did that too (not sure if that was before or after they added the rooftop cargo rack tho)
22:02<Snail_>yes, it's an A80D railbus hauling a mail trailer
22:02<drac_boy>if you have to ask why it was called a Pig you obviously can't figure out its noses :P
22:02<Snail_>there also were 1-axle trailers :D but a bit too small for the TTD scale
22:02<drac_boy>probably too low capacity too
22:02<drac_boy>not worth it
22:02<Snail_>yeah... a handful of bags of mail
22:03<Snail_>btw #24 is the original rolling stock of the line you mentioned
22:03<drac_boy>still...even the HST125 only had a 8 mails capacity in each I dunno :)
22:04<drac_boy>Snail_ anything to note about #8? I'm just wondering if its me or the loco looks a little odd shape
22:05<drac_boy>at least #15 is only simply running backward isn't it? (cab seem to be to the left)
22:06<Snail_>#8 is a rackrail train
22:07<drac_boy>oh ok
22:07<Snail_>so it always runs with the cab forward, I'm working to make it push-pull
22:07<k-man>whats a good scenario to have a look at?
22:07<Snail_>#13 is another Alpine train, on the "La Mure" line, which almost always ran cab-forward
22:07<drac_boy>btw I always found the push-pull feature sometimes a little "buggered"
22:08<Snail_>yes, it is :(
22:08<Snail_>it's just a hack, unluckily you can't reverse the whole train... only the loco and the last wagon
22:08<drac_boy>if you're using it with a solid train (eg five similar coaches) it seem to work as intended but ..if you have a mixed train it can look wonky ... eg if you had a train that was formed of four doubledeck followed by two standard coaches .. it looks weird in reverse with coach-doubles-coach-loco
22:08<Snail_>so there will be problems whenever the train is not exactly symmetrical, and even when the loco/driving trailer is a 2- (or more) -part engine
22:09<Snail_>yes, exactly. That's the point
22:09<drac_boy>Snail_ btw that reminds me of something else a lot more closer to me....
22:09<Snail_>so I'm planning to allow push-pull only if the train is perfectly symmetrical
22:09<Snail_>like what? :)
22:10<drac_boy>there was one particular operation in montreal,quebec that would had gotten the "safety board" VERY upset these days....
22:10<drac_boy>tank steam hauled commuters....and guess what happened at the end of the line to save a lot of moves and some time? ....
22:11<drac_boy>the train just ran near station then.... set some brakes on .. cut off the wagon ... and locomotive scat onto second track as the wagons grind into the platform .. then locomotive just putter back onto first track on the 'proper' end and wait
22:11<drac_boy>who need to bother wasting time doing a normal runaround? :P
22:12<Snail_>ow! that's dangerous!
22:13<drac_boy>well they did it everyday for a very long time mind you
22:13<Snail_>luckily no accident happened... imagine if the wagons' brakes had failed
22:13<Snail_>without the engine to stop them they would have kept going on and on
22:14<drac_boy>well if it had failed then the loco wouldn't had been much help as it obviously wouldn't had braked for the switch in first place
22:14<drac_boy>the switch was only a few feet outside the station platforms just to give you an idea of how little speed it had left before the wagons were on their own
22:15<Snail_>I see... that's more reasonable
22:15<drac_boy>so I imagine that if for some weird reason the brakes didn't fully catch on .. it'll only just smoke by at maybe 20-40km/h ... and end up fouling the line waiting to be hauled back in
22:16<drac_boy>still, the fact they did it daily to save the long runaround moves I just ... don't know what to say :P
22:16<drac_boy>Snail_ back to france tho...
22:17<drac_boy>one of the major commuter station (paris I think I'm sure) was a busy one with 100% tank locomotives working...but there was another quirk in its timetables..
22:17<drac_boy>once in a while there was a goods train set out on one of the platform for flowers for the shops located on the street level shops below the station
22:18<drac_boy>and at night there sometimes would be other trains too...made sense..very few commuters around so why not use the platforms for hand freights in the meanwhile
22:18<Snail_>really?? never heard of it
22:19<Snail_>well, freight trains used to regularly run around the "little belt" line that fed all of the stations in the city
22:19<Snail_>and it was just around the center of paris
22:19<Snail_>so it could well have happened that a few of them actually stopped in one of the large busy stations (perhaps St-Lazare)
22:20<drac_boy>theres one thing that I just like for some reason I don't know why.....trains and cars sharing the same road as if they didn't care much for each others' strange presence ... thats metre gauge in switzerland for you :p
22:21<drac_boy>although at least one of these smaller line had one slight crazy spot where the single adhersion worked line actually ran onto the right lane in both directions on the narrow curve .. so you could imagine what it must be like to have the 2 cars running "up the wrong way" for a few hundred meters :)
22:21<Snail_>even in france :)
22:22<Snail_>haha, that's right
22:22<Snail_>lots of old NG lines shared the road with the cars
22:22<drac_boy>I mean if the train was heading south it would follow with the cars... but if it was heading north .. well...the cars better STOP!
22:22<Snail_>they were all dismantled soon after WW2 for obvious reasons
22:23<Snail_>yep :) they were more like tramways than proper trains
22:23<drac_boy>and even SBB itself has a few places where the "station" is really the widened street itself....and these see just about any trains even loco-hauled ones
22:24<Snail_>yep, perhaps in small villages
22:25<drac_boy>not really small at all actually :p
22:25<Snail_>it was common to see such situations in rural or mountainous areas where it was just cheaper to build the tracks directly on the road
22:26<drac_boy>but btw before I forget one particular town with some tram/rail trackage finally saw the end of rail post delivery 2-3 years ago when before that date the old small 2-axle sliding door goods vans were attached to the rear
22:27<drac_boy>goes to show how much of street running switzerland liked to do and still does up to this year
22:28<drac_boy>Snail_ mind there there is another kind of road/rail sharing thats a lot more common around the world...
22:28<Snail_>they still used 2-axle good vans? where in switzerland was it?
22:28<drac_boy>road+rail = bridge with only one single lane
22:29<drac_boy>sometimes the road has first rights .. other times the rail has the first right
22:29<drac_boy>but in a few places its just a "whoever was there first gets it"
22:30<drac_boy>well Snail_ this old goods van was sometimes on the tail of a tram so .. I guess it made sense to pick such a small wagon as long as it was still in good shape
22:31<Snail_>yep, I see
22:32<Snail_>sometimes even in some cities in europe they're using really old rolling stock on the tram lines to perform servicing or maintenance tasks
22:33<Snail_>in milan for instance it might not be so rare to see a small 2-axle car from the early '900's pulling an ancient bogie flat trailer with some service material on it
22:35<drac_boy>mind you last I heard they still borrow museum trains to do rail grinding tasks.. especially netherland
22:35<drac_boy>a bit weird purpose but whatever
22:36<Snail_>cheaper than buying new rolling stock, perhaps :)
22:36<drac_boy>anyway Snail_ how often you on? :P
22:37<Snail_>every now and then...
22:37<Snail_>usually at this time since i'm currently in canada
22:37<drac_boy>ok maybe see you again tomorrow to talk about so much again ok? :P
22:37<drac_boy>I'm going to bed now
22:38<Snail_>have a good night
22:38<Snail_>and happy Easter
22:38*drac_boy throws a New York Centeral Pullman pillow into Snail_'s face and runs off laughing (heh heh)
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22:48<Nat_aS>does anybody know what kind of algorithm sim city 2000 uses to make maps?
22:48<Nat_aS>because it's just about perfect in terms of heighmaps
22:49<Nat_aS>valleys you can built things in, and mountains and hills to work around.
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---Logclosed Sat Apr 07 00:00:51 2012