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#openttd IRC Logs for 2012-04-07

---Logopened Sat Apr 07 00:00:51 2012
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01:29<Afdal>Hey can anyone tell me if tropical wood lumber mills increase in output over time the same way as other industries?
01:31<Afdal>well the probability for them increasing, whatever
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01:40<Nat_aS>I don't notice them fluxuating much at all
01:40<Nat_aS>but I might not be paying attention
01:41<Nat_aS>they seem to the the most reliable industry ever though.
01:41<Nat_aS>but that might be because there cargo is so un-dense
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01:43<Afdal>Yeah, it's seemed to me like they don't increase production like others
01:44<Afdal>But the wiki gives no mention to it
01:45<Nat_aS>never seen them decrese either.
01:45<Nat_aS>they are not really balanced at all
01:45<Nat_aS>but nice if you want lots of money to fund other less profitable routes.
01:46<Nat_aS>also it encourages building long traints
01:46<Nat_aS>trains
01:46<Nat_aS>it can be hard to make a train longer than 4 tiles with other cargos
01:46<Afdal>Hmm?
01:46<Nat_aS>but 6 seems to be the ideal length for wood.
01:46<Afdal>Not at all; you just need to be transporting them long enough to up their production to that level
01:46<Nat_aS>even longer on some maps if there are more than one close together.
01:47<Afdal>Especially like uh
01:47<Afdal>other non-sub-tropical wood industries
01:47<Afdal>Their production gets insane
01:47<Nat_aS>I like to build and forget
01:47<Nat_aS>build one train, then ignore it forever
01:47<Nat_aS>maybe automaticly upgrade all the engines at once in the train manager
01:48<Nat_aS>although sometimes I will notice a route is busy and will build a second train
01:48<Nat_aS>but in general I like 4 tile long for non wood, and 6 tile long for routes with wood
01:48<Nat_aS>sometimes 8 tile long, but that makes building stations hard
01:49<Nat_aS>esp because of how my large stations work
01:49<Afdal>I used to sort of change my train sizes based on cargo type
01:49<Nat_aS>I just sort of stack terminus stations the long way, with depot/crossing gaps between segments, and a pair of non station tracks in the center
01:50<Nat_aS>trains enter the megastation, find an open platform, load/unload, find a depot, maintain, and then leave
01:50<Afdal>But I generally pick a single size and stick with it now, or make the train as long as it needs to be for current production (without any planning)
01:50<Nat_aS>http://dl.dropbox.com/u/24299180/OTTD/Black%20%26%20Co.%2C%207th%20Aug%201951.png
01:50<Nat_aS>it's an abominatin
01:51<Nat_aS>Abomination
01:51<Rubidium>the lumber mill's limited by the amount of trees it can chop
01:51<Afdal>Yes, that's true
01:51<Afdal>But does its specific production ever increase?
01:52<Afdal>Or is it pretty much just ~180 lumber max with the best tree coverage?
01:52<Rubidium>the per tree chopped one? No
01:52<Nat_aS>i would guess no
01:52<Nat_aS>yeah, it's based around a gimmick and not really balanced.
01:52<Afdal>Aren't you a dev Rubidium?
01:52<Nat_aS>i kind of like the gimmick though, and wish it were refined.
01:53<Rubidium>every 512/74 days +45
01:53<Rubidium>is what the source code says
01:53<Afdal>Oh so it does increase over time?
01:53<Afdal>Like other industries?
01:53<Rubidium>no, the +45 is the produced cargo in total
01:54<Afdal>oh, right
01:54<Afdal>So it never changes then? Unless you run out of trees of course
01:55<Afdal>I get the feeling the fluctuations I do see are just part of the random output for that month, but it never leaves the "level" that it's at
01:55<Rubidium>yup
01:55<Afdal>Ah, thanks
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01:56<Rubidium>Afdal: the 'random' output is due to +45 every 512/74 days
01:56<Afdal>yeah
01:56<Rubidium>@calc 512/74
01:56<@DorpsGek>Rubidium: 6.91891891892
01:56<Afdal>Bummer, I was looking forward to a glorious 2000-output tropical wood game
01:56<Rubidium>and neither 28, 29, 30 or 31 are dividable by ~6.9
02:00<Afdal>So uh
02:00<Afdal>ultimately...
02:01<Afdal>Do tropical lumber mills lose out to other industries?
02:01<Afdal>considering output-income
02:01<Afdal>Say I've got a maximum output copper mine
02:02<Afdal>versus a lumber mill
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02:07<Rhamphoryncus>If you want a high volume line.. just get multiple industries near each other, use a feeder if necessary, and have one line
02:11<Nat_aS>yes
02:11<Nat_aS>that's why I hate random maps though
02:11<Nat_aS>there are always as many factories as there are producing industries, and they are always spread around illogicly
02:12<Rhamphoryncus>Yeah, the limiter has always been 1/town
02:12<Rhamphoryncus>They may spawn more slowly but in the long term the 1/town is all that matters
02:13<Nat_aS>well that can be flagged off can't it?
02:14<Rhamphoryncus>The 1/town limit? Yes. That's how you get the old joke of 20 water towers in one town ;)
02:14<Rhamphoryncus>There's very little despawning, so the result is broken
02:14<Rhamphoryncus>FIRS lets you turn off spawning altogether though
02:14<Nat_aS>the fix is to turn off spawning and make a nice scenerio
02:14<Rhamphoryncus>You'd need to do prospecting/funding as the game advances though
02:15<Nat_aS>I'm disatisfied with almost all of the randomness in OTTD, we need better algorithms.
02:15<Rhamphoryncus>Are you volunteering? ;)
02:15<Nat_aS>if I was a geinus mathmatician
02:15<Nat_aS>I do however know that I like how sim city 2000 maps look
02:16<Nat_aS>they have the right amount of hills and vallies.
02:16<Rhamphoryncus>We should borrow a cue from minecraft: generate regions, then generate terrain based on the region
02:16<Nat_aS>or dwarf fortress
02:17<Nat_aS>a map maker that simulates errosion (and rain shadows in tropic maps) would be sweet.
02:17<Rhamphoryncus>No no, we're not that insane
02:17<Nat_aS>rain shadows wouldn't be that hard
02:17<Nat_aS>and there must be simple-ish erosion algorithms.
02:17<Rhamphoryncus>Well okay, that COULD be awesome, but getting all the pieces together would be massive..
02:17<Nat_aS>Alpha centari has both, but then aggain, angled terrain is not a problem in that game
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02:18*Rhamphoryncus is also envisioning resource deposits that are variable depending on the map
02:18<Nat_aS>the problem is that in a game like OTTD, you need a map that's mostly flat, but has intresting mountians and hills
02:18<Nat_aS>flat places to build, non flat places to work around, adding challenge and visual interest.
02:19<Nat_aS>an easy map would not be flat, but rather a bunch of mesas, a hard map would not be completly jagged, but have a network of inconveniently shaped vallies.
02:19<Rhamphoryncus>IMO, the behaviour of hills should be changed first. Shallower and steeper gradients, some increments, diagonal inclines/bridges/tunnels
02:19<Rhamphoryncus>And signals in tunnels/bridges
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02:20<Nat_aS>well Diagonal inclines/bridges/tunnels sounds like a whole diffrent project
02:20<Rhamphoryncus>Real curves too
02:20<Nat_aS>also, I don't think more than one gradation is a reasonable goal.
02:20<Rhamphoryncus>It is, but it's a requirement for the hells
02:20<Rhamphoryncus>reasonable? It's not that hard
02:20<Nat_aS>Ehhh
02:20<Rhamphoryncus>Yes, I am insane :P
02:20<Nat_aS>it wouldn't be hard, but it would be diffrent
02:20<Rhamphoryncus>heya andy
02:20<Nat_aS>and would spoil the asthetics
02:21<Nat_aS>I don't want to see non 45deg hills,
02:21<Nat_aS>although clifs might be interesting, like in RCT and Locomotion
02:21<Nat_aS>curves would require hundreds of sprites per car though, which would lock pixel artists out of the community
02:22<Rhamphoryncus>spoil? It'd be beautiful
02:22<Nat_aS>and next thing you know we only have ugly pre-rendered sprites
02:22<Nat_aS>no it would be ugly
02:22<Nat_aS>have you played simutrans or locomotion?
02:22<Nat_aS>if you think that's beautiful, you need your eyes checked.
02:22<Rhamphoryncus>I'm not sure it'd require that many more sprites. There's already plans to add a few more for eyecandy purposes.
02:23<Nat_aS>it occupies a horrid gap between pixel art and 3dcgi
02:23<Nat_aS>and I have seen those, I don't like that idea either :P
02:23<Rhamphoryncus>Nope. Only simutrans videos I've looked at were towns, not hills
02:23<Nat_aS>anyways, i just think a better terrain maker than teragenisis would be nice.
02:23<Nat_aS>and could be acomplished without changing the engine for the rest of the game
02:25<Rhamphoryncus>You're not opposed to diagonal inclines/brudges/tunnels though?
02:25<Nat_aS>I'd rather see layered networks.
02:25<Rhamphoryncus>me too
02:25<Nat_aS>not just diagonal bridges, but bridges that can turn corners, and subway tunnels
02:25<Rhamphoryncus>yeah
02:26<Nat_aS>that would involve changing the way simutrans stores memory though,
02:26<Nat_aS>but BACK TO MAPS
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02:27<Nat_aS>a good map is one that looks somewhat like a real land formation, perhaps with selectable presets like "Island" or "Lakes", has flat places for building, and hilly places as obstacles/visual intrest.
02:27<Nat_aS>low mean, but high standard deviation is what some document I read about it said or something
02:27<Nat_aS>the math went over my head sadly.
02:28<Nat_aS>there are nice terrain generators that even simulate erosion, and only take a few minutes to complete, but they are complex, and not optomized for the kind of map that is good in TTD.
02:29<Nat_aS>I have tried importing the heightmaps generated, and i just get jaggy hills
02:29<Nat_aS>I can't seem to adjust the resolution.
02:30<Nat_aS>not sure if that's the right word.
02:30<@Alberth>run a smoothing algorithm on it?
02:30<Nat_aS>not as much smooting as making it more blocky
02:31<@Alberth>how many height levels do these generators assume exist?
02:31<Nat_aS>instead of a curve, I want it to fit into nice even level changes
02:31<Nat_aS>well these generators are built for more complex games than oTTD
02:31<Nat_aS>like I think this is built for game developers making 3d environments
02:32<Rhamphoryncus>Ugh, just watched a locomotion video :P
02:32<@Alberth>too fine grained perhaps?
02:32<Nat_aS>http://www.bundysoft.com/L3DT/ is what I was playing with
02:32<Nat_aS>yeah too fine
02:33<Nat_aS>it can make ultra realistic heightmaps in a reasonable amount of time (if you have a nice PC) but it's not optomized for OTTD
02:33<Rhamphoryncus>The turns aren't decent but would be acceptable.. but probably too many sprites :/
02:33<@planetmaker>maybe it's also an idea to implement a world gen API similar to AIs and game script :-)
02:33<@planetmaker>good morning everyone
02:33<@Alberth>moin planetmaker
02:33<Nat_aS>what do you mean planetmaker?
02:33<Rhamphoryncus>The hills.. well, it's really only 1 incline. They just add vertical as another option. Of course that's going to be ugly
02:34<@planetmaker>Nat_aS: I mean an interface which allows user-written world gen scripts
02:34<Nat_aS>ahh yes that would be cool
02:34<@Alberth>planetmaker: better keep it separate, we already have a good interface, namely a height map
02:34<@planetmaker>Alberth: yes, separate api. But a height map is not a world gen script as it is pre-defined shapes
02:34<Nat_aS>well a replacement for teragenisis that uses erosion would be cool.
02:35<Nat_aS>also with an option for rainshadows when making tropic maps
02:35<Nat_aS>that should be easy enough to code.
02:35<Nat_aS>just map all the tiles that are downwind of a hill and make them desert.
02:35<Nat_aS>let the player specify how far and which direction.
02:36<Nat_aS>but making realisticly placed deserts by hand is easier for the user than making nice looking maps by hand.
02:36<@planetmaker>of course this could co-incide with an extended / new definiton of "scenario" which is more generic and open than the current savegame definition
02:37<@planetmaker>especially newgrf semi-independent
02:37<Nat_aS>side question, what does "Variety distribution" in teragenisis even mean
02:37<@planetmaker>or it might be separate. :-)
02:37<@planetmaker>Nat_aS: something like feature size
02:37<Nat_aS>I don't know what it does, I can't even tell the difference between the settings.
02:37<@planetmaker>try the extremes and you'll see
02:38*Rhamphoryncus shudders at the judder between cars as a train moves in a straight line
02:38<Nat_aS>extreme adds tiny lakes
02:38<Nat_aS>low removes them
02:38<Nat_aS>in both cases, the landmass itself is ugly
02:38<Nat_aS>and square
02:39<Nat_aS>why do they always push up against the edge of a map?
02:39<Nat_aS>of the map
02:39<Nat_aS>why can't islands be islands, and continents connect with the edges of the map?
02:39<Nat_aS>square landmasses are ugly
02:41<@planetmaker>disable free-form edges
02:41<Nat_aS>yeah, none of the options in teragenisis make the map intresting, they just add meaningless details most of the time
02:42<@planetmaker>but landmasses are never square on my maps
02:42<Nat_aS>free form edges does nothing
02:42<Nat_aS>not square
02:42<Nat_aS>but they often seem to form more or less straight line coastlines against the edges of the map
02:42<Nat_aS>like not straight straight, it has noise to it, and is several squares from the edges
02:43<Nat_aS>but overall it's a line
02:43<Nat_aS>when the non edge facing coastline is more naturally and randomly curved.
02:43<@planetmaker>I think you fall for wrong perception there
02:44<Nat_aS>hmm
02:46<@Alberth>just pick your favorite programming language, find a .png writer for it, and code a better generator ;)
02:47<Nat_aS>i think i'll sleep now instead
02:47<Nat_aS>night
02:48*Rhamphoryncus wonders how hard it'd be to make a new engine from scratch, but with the ability to import the best grf's ;)
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02:57<@Alberth>the latter is a disadvantage, probably
02:58<Rhamphoryncus>In the long run, definitely
02:59<Rhamphoryncus>But in the short run it'd definitely help steal focus from openttd ;)
03:00<@Alberth>but in the short short run, you have extra functionality to implement, which makes doing it harder
03:04<Rhamphoryncus>In the end I'd probably be lazy and just steal FIRS :)
03:07<@Alberth>better just fix FIRS bugs and submit patches :)
03:08<Rhamphoryncus>Am hehe
03:10<Rhamphoryncus>Boo. 101 km/h trains. 64 km/h bridges. That's what I get for not bothering to change the starting date from 1900.
03:11<@planetmaker>:-)
03:12<Zuu>But, things get more interesting when there are bottlenecks :-)
03:13<Rhamphoryncus>Bottleneck nothing. I'm slowly scraping up enough money to buy enough trains for the line
03:13<Rhamphoryncus>Also, there's 3 trains on the bridge already XD
03:14<Zuu>Previously I didn't care that much, but lately I've started to add a strategic bottle neck before the real one to get the queue where I like to have it.
03:15<Zuu>Eg, don't have the queue front in a upslope :-)
03:17<Rhamphoryncus>I've given up on slopes being a fun factor :/
03:17<Rhamphoryncus>Now I just use grossly overpowered trains with 1% slop and 1x cargo weight
03:19<Rhamphoryncus>Throughput is just too chaotic due to the speed up/fullstop behaviour
03:20<Rhamphoryncus>Getting stuck on a hill is perfectly realistic.. and unplayable
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03:23<xahodo>Hello
03:23<@Alberth>hi
03:25<xahodo>I'm a bit puzzled about CallVehicleTicks.
03:25<@Alberth>Rhamphoryncus: always nice to be able to adjust reality :p
03:25<Rhamphoryncus>xahodo: If you start seeing something about raising Elder Gods it's time to take a break ;)
03:27<xahodo>Well, it does work a bit strange.
03:28<xahodo>First it processes all vehicles loading and unloading at stations. Then it cheerfully continues to process all vehicles.
03:28<@Alberth>lots of openttd code is strange :p
03:28<xahodo>Isn't it better to attend all vehicles once in that loop?
03:29<@Alberth>probably not
03:30<Rhamphoryncus>Have confidence there is a reason, however obscure (and sometimes unnecessary) it may be
03:30*andythenorth ponders
03:30<@Alberth>did you check in the svn history how this change was introduced?
03:30<andythenorth>despite that the game made a lot of progress in last year....
03:30<xahodo>no. Will look at it.
03:30<xahodo>Perhaps that reveals some interesting information.
03:30<@Alberth>usually that gives good clues about the edge case that breaks your idea
03:30<andythenorth>does it have enough active devs right now? Or are new devs emerging?
03:31<@Alberth>do we have active devs?
03:31<andythenorth>yes
03:31<andythenorth>I see commits in svn :P
03:31<@Alberth>around 18:45 I bet :)
03:31<andythenorth>quite a few recently :P
03:32<andythenorth>yes, Web Translator might be most active committer right now :D
03:32<andythenorth>actually, interesting thing is that I don't very often read OpenTTD Development forum
03:33<andythenorth>I can't think of any patches submitted there for a long time that made it to trunk
03:33<andythenorth>probably am wrong :P
03:34<@Alberth>you're not wrong, I think, or at least, not by much
03:34*Rhamphoryncus grumbles about his grand plan to extend his station.. that fails to account for exit track alignment
03:35<@Alberth>and you cannot live with unaligned tracks?
03:35<Rhamphoryncus>They don't fit within the available turn space
03:35<Rhamphoryncus>a 2.5 tile radius turn would become.. 0.5 :)
03:37<andythenorth>yet there are patches, and there are people also patching not posting in the Dev forum
03:37*andythenorth wonders how to encourage patch authors
03:37*Rhamphoryncus posts to the tracker and/or discusses here
03:38<@Alberth>ah, so you're the one that spams our bug tracker with feature requests ! :D
03:39<Rhamphoryncus>Feature requests? Hell no. I offer to rewrite the entire game. I get told off ;)
03:39<@Alberth>andythenorth: I think the general pattern is that people move to the mobile platform
03:40<@Alberth>Rhamphoryncus: oh, can you bend it to a rct clone? I have just the project for you then :p
03:40<Rhamphoryncus>I've made comments in that direction
03:40<@Alberth>it's also about transporting people :)
03:40<@Terkhen>good morning
03:41<Rubidium>the main problem is that the main devs don't seem to have the same amount of time they used to have
03:41<Rubidium>(or they got bored by something)
03:41<@Alberth>Or they start writing a RCT clone ( /me points Rhamphoryncus to FreeRCT )
03:42<@Alberth>moin Terkhen, Rubidium
03:42<andythenorth>did a lot of people grow up and get jobs?
03:42<andythenorth>and get busy?
03:42<@planetmaker>or a dune clone ;-)
03:42<Rhamphoryncus>I don't want RCT persay. I just want some of the power of the engine
03:42<Rhamphoryncus>uh uh, I've done my time of dune modding
03:42<andythenorth>hmm
03:42*andythenorth blames minecraft
03:43<@Alberth>planetmaker: that was a code conversion job, now it's done, and nobody seems to know where to go from there
03:43<Rhamphoryncus>sure, take the easy way out
03:43<@planetmaker>seems like
03:44<@planetmaker>what to do about that, though, Rubidium?
03:44<andythenorth>Alberth: people move to mobile platform? You mean hacking iOS / Android? Or you mean they've gone out walking? :P
03:45<Rubidium>planetmaker: no idea
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03:45<@planetmaker>andythenorth: meaning that your game is (more) successful, if you supportt hose two
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03:45<@Alberth>andythenorth: much of game / software development is for mobiles currently
03:45<andythenorth>that will pass
03:46<@planetmaker>having both, an iOS and android version certainly would come in handy. Especially with the tablet segment
03:46<andythenorth>'mobile' won't be a thing beyond about 5 years
03:46<@planetmaker>tablet is a clear mixture
03:46<Rubidium>iOS requires an OSX dev, so that's not going to happen
03:46<@Alberth>tablet will stay I think
03:47<@planetmaker>and if you don't bridge the 5 years, you're dead afterwards, too
03:47<andythenorth>it will be reasonably converged
03:47<Rubidium>and tablets require a 'fat finger interface'
03:47<@planetmaker>iOS is a slight tangent to OSX, but yes
03:47<Rubidium>which means making all buttons at least twice as big
03:47<Rubidium>or at least configurable to do so
03:48*Rhamphoryncus offers to chainsaw the UI and make it work ;)
03:48<Rubidium>though the resolutions on those devices are relatively low
03:48<@planetmaker>yes. We have the BigGUI sprites. So this time it's not a graphical issue
03:48<@planetmaker>Rhamphoryncus: please :-)
03:48<andythenorth>[does it matter if there's not much active development?]
03:48<@Alberth>probably, but the point is more that desktops are decreasing in importance
03:48*andythenorth thinks it does
03:49<Rubidium>and thus you'd (basically) end up with less space than you'd have on 640x480
03:49<andythenorth>if there's not much active development, there's few people who can review patches, which in turn reduces active development
03:49<@planetmaker>Rubidium: on a tablet you have more pixels...
03:49<andythenorth>although maybe it's nearly "done" anyway
03:49<Rhamphoryncus>planetmaker: are you aware that making the UI *good* on touch screens goes way beyond just making it scale better?
03:49<@planetmaker>yep
03:49<@Alberth>andythenorth: the problem is more you need patch authors that can write good patches
03:49<Rubidium>planetmaker: the 'cheap' ones have 800x600 or 1024x768 or something similarly small
03:50<@planetmaker>yes, they do
03:50<Rubidium>making the buttons twice as high and wide means effectively 400x300 or 512x384
03:50<Rhamphoryncus>So far any offers I've made to redesign things have not gone well
03:50<andythenorth>Alberth: how do you get authors who can write good patches?
03:50<andythenorth>how did LordAro get his readme patch done?
03:50<@Alberth>pay them :)
03:50<andythenorth>:P
03:50<andythenorth>get marketing :P
03:50<Rhamphoryncus>Rubidium: luxury! Mine's 320x240
03:50<andythenorth>one of the problems is that OpenTTD doesn't sucj
03:50<andythenorth>suck /s
03:51<@planetmaker>Rhamphoryncus: keep up
03:51<andythenorth>it's not pressingly obvious where the gaps are
03:51<Rhamphoryncus>And I believe the game could be playable on such a phone.. or at least the resolution
03:51<andythenorth>mostly "fix OS X bugs" is given as biggest priority to those who want to patch :P
03:51<@planetmaker>re-designing things needs persistence. And is not something which is done in "yup, we just do it this way"
03:51<Rhamphoryncus>planetmaker: yeah, I'm pondering a major upgrade. This one was free.
03:52<@planetmaker>hu?
03:52<@Alberth>andythenorth: needed changes are often deep
03:52<Rhamphoryncus>planetmaker: buy a table ;)
03:52<Rhamphoryncus>err.. buy a tablet
03:53<@planetmaker>lol. ok
03:53<@Alberth>a table for the tablet comes in handy too :)
03:53<@planetmaker>make sure to make a proper port then, Rhamphoryncus with stuff which can be reviewed :-)
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03:55<@planetmaker>I think an android version would really be helpful. As would an iOS one
03:55<@planetmaker>It would give the game to a new bunch of players. Though iOS... would only work for hacked devices
03:56<@planetmaker>frigging AppStore TOS
03:57<@Terkhen>yeah, it would be better to aim for an android version
03:58<andythenorth>rewrite it all in node.js :P
03:58<andythenorth>ugh
03:58<andythenorth>javascript :P
03:59*andythenorth has an idea: 'openttd should do less'
03:59<@Terkhen>I wonder about performance problems, I don't know how powerful are mobile devices nowadays
03:59<andythenorth>progressively remove stuff
03:59<Rhamphoryncus>You're insane. I respect that. But get the hell away from me ;)
03:59<andythenorth>for starters, I decide that 512x512 is quite big enough for maps
03:59<@planetmaker>why? :-P
03:59<@Terkhen>specially when some things such as YACD already hit a performance wall
04:00<@planetmaker>a real client-server architecture. But that'd be a separate game...
04:00<Rhamphoryncus>Terkhen: For such things the solution is usually to make them worse *g*
04:01<Rubidium>yeah, start by removing NewGRF and transfer orders. That'll make lots of things much easier ;)
04:01<@Terkhen>indeed :P
04:01<andythenorth>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacies_of_Distributed_Computing
04:01<Rubidium>and faster
04:02<@planetmaker>indeed it would... OpenTTD light
04:02<Rhamphoryncus>Seriously: perfect solutions may be stupidly expensive (exponential complexity or worse), but dropping it down just to 99% of perfect can push it all the way to linear
04:02<andythenorth>what are the most pain-in-the-arse things atm?
04:03<@Terkhen>in my case "I don't have destinations"
04:03<andythenorth>+1
04:03<Rubidium>the same questions over and over and over and over and over and over again
04:03<Rubidium>the slowness introduced by NewGRFs
04:04<@Terkhen>yup
04:04-!-Wolf01 [~wolf01@host139-62-dynamic.252-95-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #openttd
04:04<Wolf01>hello
04:04<andythenorth>so profiling showed that simply drawing newgrf is insanely slow? Or did I misunderstand that?
04:04<Rubidium>though I guess a significant part of that is FS#4934
04:04<Rubidium>andythenorth: it's resolving which sprite to draw
04:06<Rhamphoryncus>stopped/loading trains can cause endless "show path" redrawing, since a train is constantly trying to find a path (marking it as dirty), then resetting as it gives up (also marking it as dirty).
04:06<andythenorth>so purely the graphics chain?
04:06<andythenorth>not all the associated cbs to dick around with speed, etc
04:07<@planetmaker>andythenorth: CBs are (usually) called much less often than the screen update routine
04:07<Rubidium>andythenorth: the graphics are the significant bit for now
04:07<Rubidium>but mostly due to the amount of times they're called
04:07<andythenorth>and they're called for every vehicle, irrespective of whether it's in the viewport?
04:08<Rubidium>yep
04:08<andythenorth>ho :D
04:08<andythenorth>and that's for hysterical raisins? Or is it insanely hard to figure out viewport contents?
04:08<Rubidium>mostly because it fetches the size of the sprite so it can update the viewport draw/click hashes
04:09<andythenorth>hmm
04:09*andythenorth rapidly gets out of depth
04:09<andythenorth>so you need to know how big a sprite is before you know if it's in viewport or not?
04:09<Rubidium>mostly so that smaller sprites have smaller areas that would get redrawn
04:10<Rhamphoryncus>I can think of a couple ways to fix that, but none both simple and completely foolproof
04:10<Rubidium>and without NewGRFs that doesn't really matter as the sprite meta data lookup for size is pretty fast (just foo[spritenr])
04:10<Rubidium>however getting the sprite number with NewGRFs is the expensive part
04:11<andythenorth>silly old newgrfs
04:12<andythenorth>why does TB say "Similar behaviour cannot be detected for ships."
04:12<Rubidium>and because they do all kinds of queries on nearby sprites to return the right sprite, there's lots of calculations just to get the size of the sprite
04:12<Rubidium>s/sprites/wagons/
04:12<Rhamphoryncus>So they're too slow to measure?
04:13<Rhamphoryncus>(other costs dwarf this one)
04:13<Rubidium>andythenorth: mostly because ships have much fewer things to compare and generally less complex schemes
04:13<andythenorth>I wondered if he tested in a game without newgrf :P
04:13<andythenorth>but yes, no consist for ships
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04:13<Rubidium>I'd reckon with the N different loading stages you'd be able to do most you'd want to do for you ship, wouldn't you?
04:14<Rubidium>at least if I look at the log ship
04:14<andythenorth>probably yes
04:14<andythenorth>I also check broken down or not
04:14<andythenorth>(speed)
04:14<Rubidium>but for trains you have wagon overrides and all kinds of other crap
04:14<andythenorth>gah
04:14<andythenorth>and these have to change on every tick?
04:14<andythenorth>not
04:15<andythenorth>if we lost vehicle animation
04:15<andythenorth>then they only validly change at stations / depots
04:15<andythenorth>or do I miss some dearly-loved cases?
04:15<Rubidium>and track type changes
04:15<Rubidium>and direction changes
04:15<Rubidium>and ...
04:15<andythenorth>except for CETS style, direction changes are 'pick one of 8 pre-determined sprites'
04:15<@Terkhen>complexity explosion :)
04:15<Rubidium>when actually drawing it's not a big problem, but for just moving around the vehicle you don't really care about the bounding box
04:16<Rhamphoryncus>One of my ideas: cache the largest size seen for that vehicle type, use that to determine if on screen
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04:17<Rhamphoryncus>The other was to use double the last seen size, just for that particular vehicle
04:17<Rubidium>Rhamphoryncus: that'd mean that you'd still need to look up the sprite to see whether it might not be bigger
04:17<@planetmaker>one could go through sprites on startup
04:17<Rhamphoryncus>Rubidium: Only when you decide to draw it
04:17<@Terkhen>the problem with possible ideas to solve performance problems is that the only way to check their validity is to actually implement and profile them
04:17<@planetmaker>they're known
04:18<Rubidium>planetmaker: yeah, they're known... but please go through all code paths of a vehicle to find all sprites used for that vehicle
04:18*andythenorth wonders how it's ever valid to change appearance based on track type
04:18<@Terkhen>and in my experience our "we would like an implementation" request usually go badly
04:18<@planetmaker>Rubidium: one could just use the biggest vehicle sprite for that type
04:18<Rubidium>andythenorth: taking the pantograph down?
04:18<@planetmaker>i.e. max(FEAT_TRAINS)
04:18<@planetmaker>etc
04:18<Rubidium>planetmaker: but that'll be the buy one
04:18<@planetmaker>and the newgrf is read upon startup, afaik?
04:21<andythenorth>bleach :)
04:24-!-fonsinchen [~fonsinche@dslb-178-000-005-077.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #openttd
04:24<andythenorth>for [every vehicle] [every consist length] [every possible combination of all lengths and orders with every vehicle in every other grf]
04:25<andythenorth>calculate stuff
04:25<andythenorth>then do this for [every date] [every cargo] [every cargo amount] [every track type] [every vehicle age]
04:26*Rhamphoryncus fires up another game to check.. 31 years before I get a better bridge :(
04:26<andythenorth>and [every direction] [every possible combination of angles of neighbouring vehicles] [properties of every other vehicle in every possible consist combination]
04:26<Rhamphoryncus>andythenorth: sounds perfectly cromulent ;)
04:26<andythenorth>etc
04:27<andythenorth>and also, you *may not break any newgrf ever ever ever, especially the old unmaintained ones*
04:27<andythenorth>the old unmaintained ones are definitely the most important, because the authors (who are no longer around) might get whiny
04:27<Rhamphoryncus>unmaintained *and* with licenses that prohibit you from fixing them directly
04:28<andythenorth>"wtf, you broke my grf that I wrote 7 years and clearly don't give a crap about"
04:28<andythenorth>[+ago]
04:28<andythenorth>also we need to factor in size of 32bpp sprites?
04:30*Rhamphoryncus wishes stations had a different animation for "cargo being loaded onto a waiting vehicle", rather than flashing the "cargo waiting"
04:30<andythenorth>hmm
04:30<andythenorth>what do we gain if we ditch newgrf?
04:30<Rhamphoryncus>self-respect? *ducks*
04:32*andythenorth rephrases
04:32<Rhamphoryncus>Seriously though, I'd love to see a move to something like squirrels and a free software license requirement to add new stuff to bananas. That'd let anybody fix a grf
04:32<andythenorth>what do we gain if we ditch *vehicle* newgrfs
04:33<Rhamphoryncus>You means NARS/UKRS/Dutch/FISH/Aviator?
04:33<andythenorth>yes
04:34<Rhamphoryncus>They're the most important newgrfs..
04:35<Rhamphoryncus>So unless you're talking about merging their functionality into core, perhaps replacing them with simplified forms that specify little more than sprites and the stats..
04:37*andythenorth is wondering why TB showed aircraft having so many instruction calls
04:37<andythenorth>shadows and rotors?
04:37<andythenorth>aircraft don't do much, no consists, no load states
04:39<V453000>lol @ SAC
04:41<V453000>not sure if she knows how important it is to have newgrfs on bananas for multiplayer
04:41-!-FLHerne [~francis_h@dsl-217-155-24-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #openttd
04:42<@planetmaker>she knows not even how the ingame interface to download newgrfs looks like
04:43<V453000>I guess
04:43<@planetmaker>and assumes bananas = website for download
04:43<Rubidium>pff, who cares? Her work isn't going to be compatible with OpenTTD anyway
04:44<V453000>I dont quite care already just because she basically refuses to reasonably share it Rubi :)
04:44<V453000>I play only online anyway, so bananas is a must
04:46<Rubidium>point is that SAC claims that the new NewGRFs are "coded to restrict access for OTTD-users", i.e. they won't load in OpenTTD anyway
04:46<Rubidium>mostly because OpenTTD isn't a superset of TTDPatch features yet
04:47<V453000>lol
04:47<V453000>how friendly of TTDPatch authors
04:47<Ammler>omg, Hironimus is giving him permisssion to host it that way
04:47-!-mahmoud [~KEM@ALyon-158-1-106-218.w90-29.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #openttd
04:47<Ammler>should we introduce requireing registering for devzone too?
04:48<V453000>you cant write a ticket without that anyway, can you?
04:49<@planetmaker>registration only granted after successfully filling in a questionaire on how newgrfs and savegames and bananas work and interact with eachother
04:49<V453000>:D
04:49<@planetmaker>V453000: but you can read everything
04:49<V453000>ah I see
04:49<@planetmaker>and download
04:49<andythenorth>bbl
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04:52<Ammler>It is so annoying how Hyronymus and orudge react to SAC behavior just because she is a girl
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04:55<V453000>well, why bother in the end Ammler ;)
04:55<Rhamphoryncus>wait, if I pretended to have breasts I'd have free run of the place? :D
04:56<V453000>lol
04:56<FLHerne>So she uses a re-distributable license, then imposes additional restrictions thus invalidating it making it technically illegal for anyone to download the content?
04:56<Rhamphoryncus>FLHerne: you might want to point that out to her
04:56<FLHerne>Is there any reason why 'use a different license' doesn't work?
04:56<Ammler>V453000: it would all be no issue, if the thread would not exist in the release forum
04:57<Ammler>(like Pikka mentioned)
04:57<Ammler>locking isn't optimal but a start ;-)
04:58<FLHerne>If she doesn't want her very shiny pictures redistributed, why use a licence which permits it? It just seems rather pointless
04:59<Ammler>and if you don't want the public to dwonload it, why announce it?
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04:59<@orudge>[09:52:13] <Ammler> It is so annoying how Hyronymus and orudge react to SAC behavior just because she is a girl <-- I certainly don't, thank you very much
04:59<@orudge>I just would prefer we didn't drive any artist away, really
04:59<@orudge>however, if they're going to be stubborn, then it's their loss
05:00<Ammler>orudge: linking to a cloased 3rd party homepage is for sure spam (or like)
05:00<@orudge>I would say the same to MB, or to anybody else, whether they have a willy or a vagina :P
05:00<@orudge>or both or neither
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05:00<@orudge>Ammler: well, I did note to SAC that I would prefer it be opened if I she was to link from it here
05:00<@orudge>so hopefully she'll at least do that
05:00<Ammler>with you support that behavior, thank you :-P
05:00*Rhamphoryncus decides to try the both option
05:01<@orudge>but oh well
05:01<@orudge>we'll just see what happens I suppose
05:01<Ammler>:-)
05:01<@planetmaker>you saw the last e-mail, orudge?
05:01<@orudge>I was rather irritated when she went and deleted *all* of her attachments from TT-Forums, that bugged me
05:01<@orudge>I could technically go back into an old backup and restore them all, but that involves a lot of effort :p
05:02<@planetmaker>from tonight
05:02<@orudge>planetmaker: yes, indeed
05:02<@orudge>planetmaker: I'm not entirely sure what she's trying to say, that OpenTTD needs to implement custombridgeheads before she'll release her GRF with OpenTTD support enabled?
05:02<Ammler>orudge: can't you enable a delete block for older files?
05:02<@orudge>Ammler: not without some hacking of phpBB. I'd kind of like to block editing posts older than a few days, really.
05:02<@orudge>although there are certain places where that would be annoying
05:03<Ammler>deleting attachments is general issue
05:03<@orudge>e.g., first posts of topics
05:03<@orudge>(graphics release topics, etc)
05:03<@planetmaker>orudge: I didn't quite get that either. It has no reference context for me
05:03<@planetmaker>and doesn't fit the previous exchange at all
05:03<@orudge>planetmaker: quite, I don't know either
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05:09<frosch123>i really can't understand why to continue to try to please sac
05:09<frosch123>i would just ban her from tt-forums including disallowing any content from her
05:10<frosch123>but well, i am not in charge :)
05:11<frosch123>i just rate her as the biggest troublemaker on the froums
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05:17<oskari89>Well, i see that SAC's behaviour as MB's...
05:17<Rubidium>nah, MB's different
05:18<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: well, the general problem is "but her graphics are soooo cute!"
05:18<Rubidium>SAC and OzTrans. Those are much more alike
05:18<Eddi|zuHause>(i haven't actually seen the current discussion, though)
05:18<oskari89>Ladies and gentleman, let's not be stupid. Just throwing mud doesn't help you getting any new graphics.
05:19<oskari89>SAC does it her's own way :P
05:20<Rubidium>oskari89: lies... OzTrans was before with disabling the NewGRF when loaded in OpenTTD, now SAC's doing the same
05:20<frosch123>yeah, and when oztrans also disabled them for ttdp as well, he left shortly after or so :p
05:21<Rubidium>and both claim they needed to do so because OpenTTD didn't implement a particular feature quick enough
05:21<@Alberth>not much point in sticking around if nobody can use your published files :)
05:22<FLHerne>No-one complains when people drop TTDP support to use features in OTTD, so why is the other way round such a problem :P
05:23<Rubidium>FLHerne: it'd be like dropping TTDPatch support because TTDPatch doesn't have an auto downloader for when the base graphics are missing
05:24<FLHerne>So for a nonsensical reason?
05:24<Rubidium>in SAC's case it's the lack of custombridgeheads that's the trigger which has absolutely nothing to do with NewGRFs
05:24<@Alberth>FLHerne: depends on the person
05:25<Rubidium>for most NewGRFs that don't work on TTDPatch it's due to TTDPatch not implementing a particular NewGRF feature that the NewGRF uses
05:26<FLHerne>What actually is a custom bridgehead? They seem very popular with some people, but I don't know what they do...
05:26<Rubidium>basically that you can build junctions/signals on flat bridge heads
05:27<frosch123>http://wiki.openttd.org/Custom_Bridgeheads
05:27<frosch123>^^ funny that the first hit on google links to _ottd_ wiki
05:27<frosch123>but might me that goolge knows me to well
05:27<@planetmaker>hehe :-)
05:28<@planetmaker>for me it's the same order. openttd wiki and tt-forums openttd dev section
05:28<frosch123>then you do not have the same order as me
05:29<FLHerne>Doesn't really seem critical enough for the TTDP people to be so concerned by its absence...
05:29<frosch123>1. ottd wiki, 2. ottd wiki talk, 3. ttdp problems section
05:29<frosch123>FLHerne: it only depends on what you are used too
05:30<Rubidium>FLHerne: of the two people I know still clinging to TTDPatch and rejecting to play OpenTTD, two say it is because of custombridgeheads
05:30<frosch123>if you are not used to be able to build on steep slopes, you will not notice when playing ttdp
05:30<frosch123>however if you are used to do so, you will ragequit ttdp after five minutes
05:30<FLHerne>Surely those train-filtering track sections are more important though?
05:30<Eddi|zuHause>FLHerne: it's one of those features that you never miss, until you know of its existance
05:31<@Alberth>FLHerne: SAC is not a big train builder, she is more into realistic scenery
05:31<FLHerne>And junctions right on the edge of bridges are common enough for that to be a problem?
05:32<@Alberth>Eddi|zuHause: just like it took a while before I discovered auto-slopes in ottd :)
05:32<frosch123>just as common as building track on steep slopes
05:33<__ln__>"SAC" must be a ship or something as everyone is using "she" or "her".
05:33<@planetmaker>frosch, I searched for "custom bridgehead". Later entries are then unrelated to OTTDP
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05:35<frosch123>ok, i searched for "custom bridge heads"
05:35<frosch123>searching for your term gives the same result as you said
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05:44<@planetmaker>bye and happy Easter everyone
05:49<@Terkhen>enjoy, planetmaker
05:50*SpComb votes for custom bridges
05:51<SpComb>does openttd still only store bridge heads in the map array?
05:52<Eddi|zuHause>yes, but that is not the problem
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06:06<andythenorth><frosch123> i just rate her as the biggest troublemaker on the froums <- despite all arguments I get into, SAC is the only person who has caused me to consider quitting forums + OTTD community
06:06<andythenorth>or rather, getting piled onto and attacked by SAC's legion of followers
06:07-!-cl8 [~cl88@host-92-3-253-53.as43234.net] has joined #openttd
06:07<andythenorth>along the lines of 'omg andythenorth, despite that SAC has stolen people's work, why can't you just overlook it, she's far too important to be held to same rules as anyone else'
06:09<Rhamphoryncus>actually stolen artwork?
06:12<andythenorth>imprecisely attributed
06:12<andythenorth>'stolen' would be slanderous
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06:13<Rhamphoryncus>ahh okay
06:13<Rhamphoryncus>Still bad, but of a different magnitude
06:14<andythenorth>I know lots several of her screenshots contain sprites from me and others that are GPL
06:14<andythenorth>I have no idea if they'll be included in released grfs
06:14<Eddi|zuHause><andythenorth> imprecisely attributed <-- is that one of those "understatements" you british people do? :p
06:14<andythenorth>and without registering on her private [warez?] distribution site, I'd have no way to check
06:15<andythenorth>but as she is releasing invalidly licensed things, anyway, I wonder if GPL violation concerns her anyway
06:15<andythenorth>yet still she gets to drama all over the forums, with legions of fans
06:16<andythenorth>anyway
06:16<andythenorth>what if we canned vehicle newgrf and invented a new format?
06:16<Rhamphoryncus>XML? ;)
06:17<andythenorth>I don't mean the encoding format :P
06:17<andythenorth>I don't care about that
06:17<andythenorth>I mean the spec :P
06:17<andythenorth>encoding / authoring /s
06:18<andythenorth>a vehicle would only get to check storage local to the vehicle when resolving the graphics chain
06:19<andythenorth>and that storage would only be updated on certain intervals / callbacks, not every tick or so
06:19<Rhamphoryncus>Just as a solution to the current problem? I don't think it's necessary
06:19<andythenorth>you prefer optimisation?
06:19-!-Pikka [~chatzilla@d110-32-14-135.rdl800.qld.optusnet.com.au] has joined #openttd
06:20<Rhamphoryncus>But here's another related thought: UI newgrfs. Can change the appearance of things, or even menus, but not affect game state. Data is local to each client.
06:21<Rhamphoryncus>Use case: NARS defaulting to mph in texts, even though my settings specify km/h
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06:23<andythenorth>I suggest the local storage because it would be desirable anyway
06:23<andythenorth>why constantly check position in consist and type of lead vehicle?
06:23<andythenorth>why not just store that :P
06:24<Rhamphoryncus>You'd need that to be per-client
06:24<Rhamphoryncus>As the callback has to be triggered from being drawn
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06:34<frosch123>Rhamphoryncus: newgrfs can use the right units as set in your local settings
06:35<Rhamphoryncus>really? So it's just the newgrf predating that feature or being unaware of it?
06:35<frosch123>nars probably did not bother about using the right units, since it is a bit harder than just plain text
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06:35<drac_boy>hi
06:36<frosch123>i assume you mean the extra text in the purchase list?
06:36<Rhamphoryncus>yes
06:36<frosch123>then it's only possible since ottd 1.2
06:36<frosch123>r23045
06:36<Rhamphoryncus>ah, alright
06:37<drac_boy>I assume this isn't about the 'Note:' field or is it?
06:37<Pikka>actually, he meant the cargo subtypes, frosch123
06:38<Rhamphoryncus>oh, yeah
06:40<frosch123>hmm, ok, then it's not possible
06:52<drac_boy>do any of you think that 40km/h probably is a relastic minimum for locomotive top speed in the game? its not a little 600hp shunter naturally
06:53<frosch123>minimum?
06:54<drac_boy>well I mean its going to be a train that'll take 100 tonnes over 50 tiles?
06:55<drac_boy>hmm maybe that wasn't a good question wording :-s
06:55<frosch123>i don't think cargo trains are meant to move fast
06:55<frosch123>they are meant to move heavy stuff
06:55<k-man>how do i convince a town to let me build more stations around it?
06:56<frosch123>k-man: plant a lot of trees
06:56<k-man>frosch123, ah thanks
06:56<drac_boy>thats true frosch123 but I doubt anyone would want to watch a train move only three pixels per second or..well you know?
06:56<frosch123>ask those who start in 1800 with horses :p
06:57<drac_boy>frosch123 heh heh I was thinking of 1920+ but point taken :P
06:57<frosch123>i am fine with a vehicle going 40km/h on a very steep hill
06:57<frosch123>then i can load on a fast train in the valley
06:58<frosch123>currently i use heqs in such cases
06:58<frosch123>but if there is a train which can do it, i could also use that
06:58<frosch123>though no train which uses friction only should be able to do like heqs vehicles :)
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06:59<drac_boy>well atm I was thinking of 40-70km/h for the initial locomotives then the speed choices slowly increasing over time
06:59<drac_boy>guess I'll see what happens with the test grf then
07:00<Eddi|zuHause>drac_boy: if you have wagon speed limits that low, such an engine may make sense
07:00<drac_boy>yeah I'll have to look into the wagon, I do know that I probably could add some 2-axle variety, that would be slower for sure
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07:03<drac_boy>at least the other things were easier to figure out although I know I'm going to have to play with the kN numbers after the first grf is made
07:06<drac_boy>frosch123 do you ever use the heqs trams?
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07:06<frosch123>yes
07:07<frosch123>on short distances when raw industries are very close, but i cannot get them into the catchment of a single station
07:07<frosch123>(i do not use silly 64x64 stations)
07:08<Ammler>now april 1 is gone, shouldn't you resolve the fool now (why no stable release)?
07:08<drac_boy>heh I kind of loved heqs only simply because of trams
07:08<Pikka>there was no stable release because the release was not stable, Ammler. what more needs explaining?
07:08<Ammler>s/1.2.0?/1.2.0-RC4/
07:08<drac_boy>and frosch123 I agree, I may have station spread set to 20 in my games usually but I only use that for towns or tricky mountainside faces where it would be much less problem to locate the actual rails a bit further away
07:09<drac_boy>otherwise where the stations goes is where they actually serve their task
07:09<Ammler>Pikka: I would wonder why...
07:09<Pikka>because sufficent bugs were found after the release of RC3
07:09<frosch123>@topic set 1 1.1.5, 1.2.0-RC4
07:09<Ammler>which were not able to fix?
07:09-!-DorpsGek changed the topic of #openttd to: 1.1.5, 1.2.0-RC4 | Website: *.openttd.org (translator: translator, server list: servers, wiki: wiki, patches & bug-reports: bugs, revision log: vcs, release info: finger) | Don't ask to ask, just ask | 'Latest' is not a valid version, ever | English only
07:10<Pikka>they were fixed
07:10<Pikka>but the fact that bugs were being fixed means that the release was not stable
07:10<frosch123>drac_boy: on those mountain sides i use the heqs rv
07:10<Pikka>an RC will become a stable when there are no significant bugs found.
07:10<Pikka>or at least no significant bugs anyone can be bothered fixing :)
07:11<drac_boy>frosch123 well I'm thinking more like where eg the rail station is on a wide cliff or on the flatland bottom .. and the industry in question is stubbornly around the peak ... I'll prefer to not blow up the face of the mountain ;)
07:11<andythenorth>you need conveyor belts
07:11<andythenorth>which are equivalent to pipelines
07:11<Ammler>well, the bug must have been very serious to break the tradition :-)
07:11<frosch123>drac_boy: i am only talking about a distance of 10 tiles here
07:11<Pikka>roadtypes, andy
07:12<Ammler>the changelog does not list any such bug
07:12<drac_boy>frosch123 well sometimes it can be as little as a catchment tile placed 3 tiles far from the station. point taken tho
07:12<Pikka>the seriousness of the bug fixed is not the issue
07:12<andythenorth>bug is a bug no?
07:12<Pikka>the issue is whether the fix produces unforeseen problems
07:13<andythenorth>bug fix = variation; variation needs testin
07:13<Pikka>which can only be discovered by a further test release
07:13<drac_boy>andythenorth funny that you would mention pipelines, I had been playing with some rough sprites for Object pipeline coming from a small oil derrick to the storage tank
07:13<andythenorth>DWE tile already have one I think ;)
07:13<andythenorth>DWE stations?
07:13*andythenorth is bad at words today
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07:13<Ammler>well, wouldn't be the first time there is a bugfix release shortly after the release :-)
07:14<drac_boy>yeah I was just playing around since I wanted to find reasons to try draw cylinders at a diagonal angle which is not so easy early on around
07:16<andythenorth>+1
07:17<drac_boy>at least theres always the forum in case I really run into problem trying to draw a particular sprite right in diagonal view :)
07:19<drac_boy>andythenorth if you don't mind me asking, would you had complained about being only able to load logs onto dedicated log wagons rather than the refittable flatcar?
07:19*drac_boy wanted to see what others would had said
07:20<andythenorth>as long as there's something to transport them
07:20<andythenorth>the rest of it is a matter of taste
07:20<drac_boy>heh allright, thanks
07:21<drac_boy>and yeah theres a few wagons for everything, just a few of these are specific such as log wagon or passenger coach
07:22<drac_boy>still not sure if should let milk into tankers or save it only for the refridgerate car
07:23<andythenorth>tankers
07:23<drac_boy>hm?
07:24<Eddi|zuHause>drac_boy: you transport the milk from the cows to the bottling plant, not from the bottling plant to the cities. so tanker is slightly more logical than refrigerated
07:24<Eddi|zuHause>alcohol/beer is a different matter
07:25<drac_boy>now that does make sense, thanks
07:25<drac_boy>and heh beer...
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07:26<drac_boy>I was thinking about farm-brewery-(food) chain but thats probably for someone else to deal with perhaps
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07:44<@Alberth>nobody makes wine :(
07:45<drac_boy>alberth why?
07:45<andythenorth>Alberth: FIRS technically could be
07:45<@Alberth>drac_boy: I don't know, but everybody makes beer
07:45<andythenorth>BEER is the label
07:45<drac_boy>alberth heh :-)
07:45<andythenorth>but the FIRS cargo is Alcohol
07:46<@Alberth>fair point :)
07:46<drac_boy>andythenorth I hope you did not shorten that to ALCO for label .. confusing ;)
07:46<drac_boy>heh heh
07:46<@Alberth>but you don't need wheat for wine :p
07:46<andythenorth>you can deliver fruit :P
07:47<andythenorth>hmm
07:47<andythenorth>apparently I named it Brewery
07:47<andythenorth>it was Brewery / Distillery for a while
07:47<andythenorth>but all those 'foo / bar' industry names were stupid
07:47<drac_boy>I think just Brewery alone makes more sense
07:47<@Alberth>don't know how a wine factory is called
07:47<andythenorth>winery
07:47<drac_boy>wine press? :)
07:47<drac_boy>or that too
07:47<andythenorth>bbl
07:50<frosch123>hmm, would TEA_ be transported in tankers? :p
07:51<drac_boy>I don't think so
07:52<@Alberth>no, tea leaves are transported dry
07:52<@Alberth>until milli seconds before you put them in the water :)
07:57<frosch123>ah, so they need moisture protection in silo wagons
08:00*andythenorth thinks a mediterranean industry chain would be nice
08:00<andythenorth>olives, wine
08:00<andythenorth>euro-bonds
08:00<andythenorth>italian sports cars
08:01<andythenorth>superyachts
08:01<andythenorth>cheese
08:01<drac_boy>you're overthinking :P
08:01<drac_boy>heh heh
08:04<oskari89>Is trash included in FIRS?
08:04<andythenorth>no
08:04<oskari89>Or scrap metal, currently?
08:04<andythenorth>recyclables are
08:04<andythenorth>scrap metal is
08:04<drac_boy>why no trash andythenorth? they had a lot of trash trains around the world :p
08:04<drac_boy>heh
08:04<andythenorth>it's not interesting
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08:11<drac_boy>you ever thought about sending scraps back to the steel mill? probably have a low output ratio but still
08:11<Eddi|zuHause>that's what it currently does
08:12<Eddi|zuHause>but the output of the scrapyard was too high, the last time i tested firs
08:12<andythenorth>I think there's a ticket to link it to population
08:12<andythenorth>currently it's like an extractive industry
08:12<andythenorth>delivering supplies boosts its output :P
08:12<andythenorth>wrong
08:12<Eddi|zuHause>indeed
08:13<Eddi|zuHause>but the initial output should be more in the order of magnitude of a farm, not of a mine...
08:14<andythenorth>it's about 54t by default
08:14<andythenorth>I think older FIRS had [slightly] more
08:14<andythenorth>but older FIRS sucked even more than current FIRS
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08:36<FLHerne>andythenorth: Scrapyards should have an output limit based on population, then supplies increase output up to that limit?
08:36<andythenorth>maybe
08:36<andythenorth>or they don't get supplies at all
08:36<andythenorth>they're not really extractive
08:36<FLHerne>Yeah...but supplies :P
08:37<Pikka>supplies!
08:37<andythenorth>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/3800
08:37<andythenorth>anyway, FIRS is dead-ish :P
08:37<FLHerne>Those big ripping-stuff-to-shreds machines count as engineering supplies, surely?
08:38<andythenorth>yeah, that was the original case for them
08:38<andythenorth>mixing population and supplies is...complicated
08:38<andythenorth>simple is better
08:38<FLHerne>No, complicated is better. You should add at least 2 more types of supplies :P
08:39<FLHerne>Does FIRS 0.7 fix the windmill jumping up and down, btw?
08:39<andythenorth>I didn't know it did that :P
08:39<andythenorth>why don't you test and let me know ;)
08:40<FLHerne>Chill's PP - 0.7 doesn't work
08:40<@peter1138>Pikka, racist
08:40<Eddi|zuHause><andythenorth> it's about 54t by default <-- i think that should be _much_ less
08:40<FLHerne>I'm tying to make an updated PP, but the patches keep breaking :-(
08:40<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: given the huge effect it has
08:40<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: submit a patch :P
08:41<FLHerne>Actually, I have a recent CargoDist build, I'll check that
08:41<andythenorth>I'll give you commit rights, you can release it :P
08:41<@Alberth>FLHerne: that's what ChilCore also found out
08:41<drac_boy>flherne heh well if you ever get a stable one feel free to tell me so I could see about replacing the current folder I have ok? :p
08:41<Pikka>FLHerne: I'm going to incorporate supplies for primary industries into TaI, they'll be very complicated
08:41<@Alberth>*Chillcore
08:42<Pikka>farms and forests take fertilizer, which is made out of thin air
08:42<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: see #3800 linked above for what I think Junk Yards should do
08:42<Pikka>mines take goods :D
08:42<andythenorth>Pikka: when are you going to release this fabled TaI?
08:42<@Alberth>Pikka: they should take CO2 :)
08:42<andythenorth>honestly, you're no better than SAC :P
08:42<Pikka>andythenorth: I've released 3 grfs in the last week
08:42<Pikka>on bananas :)
08:42<andythenorth>talk talk talk, screenshots, no releases :P
08:43*andythenorth expects at least one grf per day
08:43<drac_boy>you're a weird one then andythenorth :-P
08:43<Pikka>well
08:43*Alberth missed a few FIRS releases apparently
08:43<k-man>what is TaI?
08:43<Pikka>I could probably knock out a grf like that one all the angst was over in about 5 minutes
08:43<andythenorth>should I recode FIRS in python?
08:43<Pikka>foundations indeed
08:44<andythenorth>if I recode it, I might annoy pm to the point where he stops helping me :(
08:44<andythenorth>and he is the only other active committer
08:45<andythenorth>I've annoyed him enough times already
08:45<andythenorth>otoh, recoding it might be interesting
08:45<@Alberth>to nml?
08:45<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: because the last recoding was such a success? :p
08:45<andythenorth>it already is nml :)
08:45<andythenorth>it's nml + cpp
08:46<andythenorth>and every time I ask questions, I just get beaten down with "why are you using such inappropriate tools"
08:46<@Alberth>Eddi|zuHause: because Python coding is fun :p
08:46<andythenorth>the last recoding was successful: it increased the number of loc
08:47<@Alberth>yeah sorry, we should harrass pm with such questions
08:47<andythenorth>it introduced new bugs and lost previously working features
08:47<andythenorth>and it baffles me when I look at it
08:47<andythenorth>where's the problem? :D
08:47<drac_boy>problem: you doing too much
08:47<andythenorth>also it forced me to learn nml, which is good
08:47-!-mahmoud [~KEM@ALyon-158-1-10-194.w90-29.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #openttd
08:48<@Alberth>drac_boy: that's normal; so many problems, so little time
08:48<drac_boy>alberth well...stop creating new ones then, thats all I can say :p
08:48<drac_boy>I only have a few minor problems one week later ;)
08:48<@Alberth>I am still in the same situation 6 months later :p
08:49<@Alberth>so stopping creating new projects is clearly not working :p
08:49<andythenorth>hmm
08:49<andythenorth>code I wrote in 2007 is interesting
08:49<andythenorth>the code is ok, the structure is bonkers
08:50<andythenorth>over-abstraction, under-abstraction
08:50<andythenorth>insanity
08:50<andythenorth>one thing I've learnt over the years: generally 'flat' is slightly better when it comes to organising stuff
08:50<andythenorth>as long as you have a decent search
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08:56<FLHerne>andythenorth: It appears FIRS 0.7.1 still has the jumping windmills :P
08:57<andythenorth>bah
08:57<andythenorth>file a bug report
08:57<andythenorth>then it can be ignored :P
08:57<FLHerne>Just tested with 1.2.0-RC4
08:57<andythenorth>the blades jump?
08:57<andythenorth>or the building?
08:58<FLHerne>On every zoomed-out view (but not furthest normal zoom or EZ levels) the entire building bounces up and down :P
08:58<FLHerne>Looks rather silly, I didn't report it for 0.6.4 because I assumed you'd probably fixed it already...
08:58<drac_boy>going for a while now, be back later I guess :)
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08:59<Pikka>my power stations do that too :) maybe I will fix it one day
08:59<andythenorth>is it not standard zoom jitter?
08:59<Pikka>it happens with animated things
08:59<FLHerne>I don't think so, it moves by quite a lot...
08:59<Pikka>if the sprites are different sizes, the pixel-chopping algorithm when you zoom out chops different pixels
09:00<Pikka>from the different frames
09:00<FLHerne>Oh, I see why that would happen now
09:00<andythenorth>oil wells do it too
09:00<Pikka>fun times :)
09:00<Pikka>I think of it as a charming quirk, not a bug ;)
09:01<FLHerne>Also, the background savegame for 1.2.0 makes my computer lag badly
09:03-!-sla_ro|master [slaco@95.76.26.172] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
09:09<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: well, you can put in special zoom sprites now :)
09:09<Eddi|zuHause>but i only ever zoom out while paused
09:13<andythenorth>ho
09:13<andythenorth>let's file FIRS zoom under 'things andythenorth will never do'
09:13<andythenorth>if I had that much time, I would sooner spend it improving OpenGFX :P
09:14<andythenorth>but moot point either way
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09:15<Eddi|zuHause>whoever put easter in april was a fool. obviously
09:21-!-Progman [~progman@p57A19650.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
09:21<__ln__>whoever made easter a moving target was a fool
09:23*andythenorth post-lunch slump
09:23<andythenorth>not so much work getting done
09:23<andythenorth>maybe I can play the game for a bit?
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09:28<Pikka>boo
09:28<Pikka>graphics program crashed and ate a building
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09:39<Eddi|zuHause>wohooo snow!
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09:45<andythenorth>boo
09:45<andythenorth>hmm
09:45<andythenorth>if I recode FIRS in python, I'll actually have to use proper Class inheritance and crap
09:45<andythenorth>like a grown up
09:46<Pikka>this is why we code in nfo in a text editor :D
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09:48<ccfreak2k>He just wants to be a kid a little longer.
09:48<andythenorth>hmm
09:48<ccfreak2k>Putting everything into globals and such.
09:48<andythenorth>more like
09:48<andythenorth> class Foo:
09:48<andythenorth>if (stuff):
09:48<andythenorth>if (more stuff):
09:48<andythenorth>etc
09:48<andythenorth>rather than inheriting from a base class
09:49<andythenorth>and extending
09:50<andythenorth>e.g. rather than
09:51<andythenorth>class Industry: if type=='extractive': blah; if type=='secondary': foo
09:51<andythenorth>I should do
09:51-!-mal2 [~mal2@port-92-206-195-45.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #openttd
09:51<andythenorth>class ExtractiveIndustry(Industry):
09:51<andythenorth>like a proper grown up
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10:06<Eddi|zuHause>use the factory pattern for industries :p
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10:15<andythenorth>how apt :)
10:16<Pikka>http://www.pikkarail.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/8fs2.png oh no 32bpp :)
10:31*FLHerne wants to look at that ingame :P
10:31<Pikka>you can
10:31<Pikka>just not this game :)
10:32<FLHerne>Locomotion?
10:32<Pikka>Trainz
10:32<FLHerne>Ah
10:32<FLHerne>Now code it for OTTD :P You've got an 8F in UKRS2 already...
10:33<Pikka>and it's fine just the way it is ;)
10:33<FLHerne>Looks a bit pixelated sometimes though
10:38<FLHerne>Sometimes I hate the devs for putting in EZ...before I was quite happy with the graphics, now everything looks too undetailed :-(
10:39<oskari89>Generally, i would like that someone took and did something like universal 3D-model format, which could be imported automatically to OpenTTD graphics and Trainz and RW..
10:39<oskari89>And OpenBVE..
10:40<Pikka>well
10:40<oskari89>FLHerne: You can restrict your zooming from the settings ;)
10:40<Pikka>for a given value of "automatic", you can do that :)
10:40<__ln__>oskari89: i don't think that would work for such small graphics as OpenTTD's.
10:41<FLHerne>Pikka: I know I can, but then I still know that there's an option...
10:42-!-sla_ro|master [~slaco@95.76.26.172] has quit [Quit: DANGER sla.ro is OFFLINE DANGER]
10:43<oskari89>Why not? :P
10:44<oskari89>Ah, of course, 32 px length limit..
10:44<oskari89>But i recall that CSDSet had 40 px length something stuff?
10:44<oskari89>As rolling stock?
10:47<oskari89>Anyway, bbl..
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10:50<drac_boy>hi
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11:13*andythenorth ponders
11:13<Pikka>stop it, you'll go blind
11:13*andythenorth loses sight of what he was pondering
11:15<andythenorth>how would I insert a python step after CPP has done its work, but before nmlc is called :O
11:16<drac_boy>heh
11:16<andythenorth>ach
11:16<andythenorth>maybe I just branch FIRS and convert the branch to python
11:17<supermop>had to switch my bike to the next size up
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11:21*drac_boy pokes Snail_ to hurry up already
11:21<drac_boy>heh heh
11:21<Snail_>good morning
11:22<drac_boy>how're you? :)
11:24<@Alberth>andythenorth: invent a post-cpp-pre-nml language, and use ply to parse it, and python to generate nml :p
11:24<andythenorth>templating :P
11:24<@Alberth>PCPNL
11:24<andythenorth>I have that
11:24<andythenorth>Chameleon
11:25<andythenorth>can't decide whether to do iddy-biddy steps for a conversion, or just poke at a branch until it's done
11:25<@Alberth>I already have software called that
11:25<andythenorth>it's not like anything changes in FIRS trunk :P
11:26<@Alberth>if you know where to go and how to do it, small steps are better in reaching the goal
11:27<@Alberth>if you don't know, first play with the problem, and poking can be a good strategy :)
11:27<andythenorth>I think interleaving CPP and Python templates just gives me a new class of bugs to hunt :P
11:34<@Alberth>yeah, using cpp first is less useful than you may think :p
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11:49<andythenorth>+1
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11:50<Mazur>-2
11:50<drac_boy>heh
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12:01<@Alberth>Mazur: it doesn't go below -1 :) http://www.apache.org/foundation/voting.html
12:02<andythenorth>ho
12:02<andythenorth>that was fun
12:07<drac_boy>hmm what year to do hovercrafts
12:09<Pikka>1970ish
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12:15<drac_boy>alberth can I call nil? :)
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12:25<drac_boy>going to have lunch now, bye
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12:49*andythenorth has done enough actual work
12:49<andythenorth>time for some pixels
12:50<Pikka>hooray!
12:57<andythenorth>[children stop pixels]
12:57<Pikka>boo
12:58<andythenorth>hmm
12:59<Pikka>I seem to be working at the wrong end of TaI houses
12:59<andythenorth>?
12:59<Pikka>I meant to work on 19th century stuff, but I'm rejigging all the houses around the turn of the 21st century
12:59<andythenorth>hag
12:59<andythenorth>gah even
13:00<Pikka>I've moved the "suburban house" into the cottage slot, and am going to draw something new to replace the urban houses
13:00<Pikka>I also earlier limited the urban houses to zones > 0, so that's made a difference.
13:02<V453000>andythenorth: I think I swallowed a pixel or few. What now?
13:02<andythenorth>watch for them in your poo of course
13:02<Pikka>wait and see what comes out the other end, V453000
13:02<Pikka>might even be sprites
13:02<V453000>:DDDD
13:03<andythenorth>hmm
13:03*andythenorth doesn't understand station coding
13:03<Pikka>ah, the dark arts
13:03<andythenorth>http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/1291/
13:03<V453000>I keep myself far away from that :)
13:04<V453000>today I coded some train capacity and one value was expected to override the former one ... they combined
13:04<V453000>took me a while to figure out
13:05<Pikka>sounds improbable, V453000 :)
13:05<V453000>exactly :D
13:06<andythenorth>stations appear to require GRM or such
13:06<V453000>luckily it is just for purchase menu so I made the 2 values combine into the value I wanted and didnt bother further
13:06<andythenorth>I wanted to put some ground under this: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=1004755#p1004755
13:06<andythenorth>but no idea how :P
13:07<andythenorth>reading the spec might be a starting point
13:07<V453000>cant help you there
13:07<V453000>:D
13:07*andythenorth has not coded stations before
13:10<andythenorth>@seen Yexo
13:10<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: Yexo was last seen in #openttd 1 week, 6 days, 0 hours, 36 minutes, and 49 seconds ago: <Yexo> ^^ that rule is too general and not always applicable
13:17<andythenorth>oh
13:17<andythenorth>lots of errors
13:19<andythenorth>hmm that worked
13:19<andythenorth>it's not pretty
13:20<andythenorth>it's always better to *not* read the spec, and just try hacking stuff
13:21<Pikka>we really need those macadam and cobble roads and gaslights :D
13:21<Pikka>perhaps after TaI I will see about roadtypes
13:21<andythenorth>perhaps
13:21<andythenorth>:|
13:21<Pikka>perhaps
13:21<andythenorth>perhaps I could help
13:21<Pikka>perhaps I could help!
13:22<andythenorth>perhaps we need a leader!
13:22<andythenorth>peter1138 !
13:22<Pikka>ew
13:22<andythenorth>he will just point at us, and laugh
13:23<andythenorth>hmm
13:23<andythenorth>that's no good
13:23<andythenorth>the ground goes transparent :O
13:23<Pikka>you bruk it
13:24<andythenorth>have to read the spec :P
13:24<andythenorth>kind of cheating
13:31<andythenorth>hmm
13:31<andythenorth>where does bit 30 hide?
13:31<Pikka>bit 30?
13:31<Pikka>would be 8000?
13:32<Pikka>erm
13:32<Pikka>80000000 perhaps :)
13:32<Pikka>0x, naturally
13:33<andythenorth>hmm
13:33<andythenorth>that's what I thought
13:33<andythenorth>that just gets me garbled graphics (wrong sprites)
13:33<Pikka>eep :)
13:34<andythenorth> \dx000003F4 is my sprite
13:34<andythenorth> \dx800003F4
13:34<andythenorth>I thought would give me transparent
13:34<Mazur>Would 30 not be 0x2000 / 0x20000000 ?
13:34<+glx>80000000 is bit 31
13:34<Pikka>good point
13:35<Pikka>40 then
13:35<andythenorth>(not transparent I mean - brain ache)
13:35<Mazur>Of course, it's mine.
13:35<+glx>bit 30 is 40000000
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13:36<Mazur>I just forgot to start from 0.
13:36<andythenorth>the spec is frankly batshit crazy
13:36<andythenorth>http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/Action0/Stations#Sprite_layout_.2809.29
13:36<Mazur>Who isn't?
13:36<Pikka>stations are very silly
13:36<Mazur>Who isn't?
13:37*Mazur is a fullty paid up member of hte Society for putting things on top of other things.
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13:40<frosch123>andythenorth: i wanted to rewrite that part, but i did not know how :p
13:40<andythenorth>oh god
13:40<andythenorth>the problem is something to do with how ground sprites work
13:40<andythenorth>I have to use GRM to do it
13:40<frosch123>the same as for industries, just bit 31 inverted
13:40<frosch123>GRM? why that?
13:41<andythenorth>"the preferred way of obtaining new sprites for ground sprites is to reserve them via http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/GRFResourceManagement and apply them to your action 0 with an http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/Action6 (see the example there)."
13:41<Pikka>that sounds horrible
13:41<andythenorth>or alternatively, the spec is broken, which can't be the case
13:41<Pikka>don't do that
13:41<andythenorth>certainly adding \dx8 or \dx4 doesn't work
13:41<frosch123>who wrote that non-sense?
13:42<andythenorth>if anyone would like to play, a CHIPS checkout is easy :P
13:42<andythenorth>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/chips/repository
13:43<frosch123>for station tiles with track you always have to use the default ground tile anyway
13:43<frosch123>as only that one will draw the proper new railtypes
13:43<andythenorth>specifically http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/chips/repository/entry/sprites/nfo/tiles/tipple.pnfo
13:43<andythenorth>hmm
13:43<andythenorth>that might be the issue then
13:43<andythenorth>maybe I need to draw ground sprite, then overlays
13:44<andythenorth>I have to bath the baby, but will gladly test patches :P
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: translators * r24098 /trunk/src/lang/french.txt:
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: french - 9 changes by OliTTD
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14:02<andythenorth>ok
14:02<andythenorth>so it helps to set bits on the write sprite :P
14:02<andythenorth>and it is 40000000h
14:03<andythenorth>setting 80000000 gets you a sprite from the baseset at some offset
14:03<andythenorth>and is all wrong :)
14:06<Pikka>yes
14:06<Pikka>oops :)
14:07<andythenorth>ho
14:07<andythenorth>the rear part of the structure flickers when a train goes by
14:07<Pikka>bounding boxes
14:07<Pikka>have fun
14:07<andythenorth>meh
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14:09<andythenorth>ctrl-b tells me nothing useful
14:09<andythenorth>just one big bounding box
14:10<frosch123>that's what is wrong :p
14:10<frosch123>you should have one bounding box behind the train, and one in front of it
14:11<andythenorth>"copy-paste-hack" may not be the best way to learn this
14:11<andythenorth>bounding boxes are declared
14:12<andythenorth>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/chips/repository/entry/sprites/nfo/tiles/tipple.pnfo
14:12<andythenorth>I suspect line 15 is the one I need to change
14:13<frosch123>only make them 10x5
14:14<andythenorth>10 04 \b36 seems to work
14:14<frosch123>0x10 x 0x05 :p
14:15<andythenorth>is it bad that guessing is more effective than understanding the spec?
14:17<frosch123>just take a look at other stations
14:18<andythenorth>now I just need some tiles for sheep, pigs, cows, then 0.7.0 is ready
14:18<andythenorth>I have the graphics
14:18<andythenorth>just need code :P
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14:33<FLHerne>OpenGFX support would be nice...
14:33<FLHerne> '<
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15:00<xiong>So, I've confirmed it. In the Scenario Editor, I have my chosen Advanced Settings, including Autorenew and Maintenance. I close the editor and play the scenario I've created; it opens with all Autonenew and Maintenance settings reset to default.
15:00<xiong>Is this a bug or an obscure feature?
15:02<Pikka>those settings sound like ones where player preference should take precedence
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15:07<frosch123>xiong: those are settings per company
15:07<frosch123>they are set to the local defaults when a company is started
15:08<xiong>Um, okay frosch123. But when I start a New Game, I retain those settings. I can sort of see what you're driving at; somehow when I Play Scenario, I'm not the same Company 1. Yes? How to fix?
15:09<xiong>I do notice a [company] section but it only contains Autorenew settings, not Maintenance.
15:10<xiong>(in openttd.cfg)
15:10<xiong>For that matter, I have the same variables set in the [vehicle] section of the file.
15:10<Pikka>not the same company as what, xiong?
15:11<Pikka>there is no company when you're in the scenario editor
15:11<xiong>Pikka, I have no idea; I'm groping.
15:11<Pikka>when you start a new game, or when you start playing a scenario, a new company is created, and uses the settings from your config
15:11<xiong>Can you tell me how to retain my Autorenew and Maintenance settings when playing a scenario I've created myself?
15:12<Pikka>set them from the main menu before playing the scenario
15:12<frosch123>http://hg.openttd.org/openttd/trunk.hg/file/a0be02c56cb9/src/settings_type.h#l437 <- those are per-company settings
15:12<frosch123>VehicleDefaultSettings and CompanySettings
15:13<frosch123>it does not matter where they are set in the gui, they are likely scattered across all of them :p
15:14<xiong>Pikka, I've checked; they are correctly set when examined from the Main Menu.
15:15<xiong>This is only the [vehicle] section of my openttd.cfg: http://perl.nopaste.dk/p4962
15:16<xiong>Lines 2..4, 21..25 appear to be ignored when I play a scenario I have created... with these settings in effect during scenario creation and in Main Menu before play.
15:17<xiong>Note that all other settings, in this section and others, appear to be retained. I've looked and not found any other discrepancies.
15:18<xiong>Um, this is 1.2.0-RC4.
15:19<frosch123>is it a new scenario or some old one?
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15:23<andythenorth>hmm
15:23-!-fonsinchen [~fonsinche@dslb-178-000-005-077.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
15:23<andythenorth>livestock
15:24-!-Pikka_ [~chatzilla@d58-106-21-132.rdl801.qld.optusnet.com.au] has joined #openttd
15:24<Pikka_>livestock to you too
15:24<andythenorth>yarp
15:24<andythenorth>wtf to how do it though?
15:24<Pikka_>animal husbandry
15:25<supermop>yes it could get messy andy
15:25<Pikka_>www.pikkarail.com/ttd/rookery_mockup.png
15:25<andythenorth>I've husbanded these http://hg.openttdcoop.org/chips/raw-file/03e5b53ab736/sprites/graphics/pigs_cargo.png
15:25<andythenorth>and these http://hg.openttdcoop.org/chips/raw-file/03e5b53ab736/sprites/graphics/sheep_cargo.png
15:26<Pikka_>those tiny victorian brick terraces are looking pretty idyllic
15:26<andythenorth>hmm
15:26<andythenorth>I had an idea to make FIRS textile mill a collection of stone cottages before a certain date (home weavers)
15:26<andythenorth>like what you has drawn
15:27<Pikka_>hmm
15:27<Pikka_>well these aren't stone cottages so much as squalid crapheaps
15:27<andythenorth>slums!
15:27<Pikka_>yes
15:28<andythenorth>so what I have no idea about is cargo support for stations
15:28<andythenorth>is it action 3? action 2? action 0?
15:29<andythenorth>everything is upside down in stations
15:29<Pikka_>you mean the pilingupness?
15:29-!-DDR [~chatzilla@d99-199-14-2.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #openttd
15:29<Pikka_>stations are very silly
15:29<andythenorth>it's like alice in fricking wonderland, stations
15:29<Pikka_>I coded one, once
15:29<Pikka_>and then I stopped
15:29<andythenorth>really I should just refuse until my coder comes back
15:29<andythenorth>but he's out looking for somewhere to live
15:29<andythenorth>or something
15:29<Pikka_>excuses
15:29<supermop>a cottage
15:29<andythenorth>UKSS
15:30-!-Pikka [~chatzilla@d58-106-21-132.rdl801.qld.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
15:30<andythenorth>you know you need UK stations
15:30<Pikka_>yes
15:30<Pikka_>I've resorted to using japanese stations
15:30-!-Pikka_ is now known as Pikka
15:30<andythenorth>I supposed I could read the actual nfo, instead of the cpp stuff
15:30<Pikka>since MBs stations don't look so good with my tracks :)
15:31*andythenorth has stations
15:31<andythenorth>they are special
15:32<Rubidium>diaper changing stations aren't that special ;)
15:32<andythenorth>I hate stations
15:33<andythenorth>shall I release this thing without the livestock tiles?
15:33<Pikka>noooooooo
15:33<andythenorth>as I have no idea how to do them, and can't be bothered to learn
15:34<FLHerne>andythenorth: could you do a station that was just plain grass?
15:34-!-Biolunar [~mahdi@blfd-4d08e591.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
15:34<andythenorth>yes
15:34<andythenorth>it would be the same green grass in all climates
15:34<andythenorth>you'd love it
15:34<FLHerne>Would be useful for reversing sidings etc
15:34<Rubidium>that'll look odd in toyland :(
15:35<FLHerne>Is it not possible to do climate-detection?
15:35<andythenorth>FLHerne: http://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/2432
15:36<FLHerne>Aww :-(
15:36<FLHerne>Mud platforms it is then
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15:38<supermop>i think trees should be allowed on owned land
15:39<supermop>ie player planting trees on player own land is possible and does not remove ownership
15:39<supermop>and furthermore, buying land with trees on it does not cut down the trees
15:40<supermop>maybe it still has a (smaller) effect on town rating
15:42<andythenorth>what I miss is hth to provide different graphics for cargo waiting
15:42<supermop>but this way you can hold land without destroying it
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15:44<Pikka>http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/VariationalAction2/BaseStation andy?
15:45<andythenorth>:o
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15:53<drac_boy>hi
15:54<Eddi|zuHause><Pikka> since MBs stations don't look so good with my tracks :) <-- well there exists an update, but... you know MB :)
15:55<andythenorth>how did anyone ever manage to code stations?
15:55<andythenorth>is there a reference implementation I can copy?
15:55<andythenorth>it's just black magic
15:55<andythenorth>how does the action 2 magically choose sprites from the action 1?
15:55<drac_boy>heh
15:55<andythenorth>it makes really no sense
15:56<andythenorth>http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/1292/
15:56<andythenorth>^ according to spec, that should magically produce cargo waiting sprites when (some condition I don't understand) is met
15:56<andythenorth>it doesn't
15:57<andythenorth>how does the action 0 know to magically use different sets from the action 1? Does the offset increase?
15:57<Pikka>wat
15:57<andythenorth>http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/Action2/Stations
15:58<andythenorth>"The sets from the most recent action1 to use for this set-ID, for each stage of numlittlesets and numlotssets, i.e. in total numlittlesets+numlotssets entries."
15:58<Pikka>oh
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15:58<Pikka>well, I guess that numlittlesets and numlotssets is a crude way to do waiting cargo sprites
15:59<andythenorth>:)
15:59<Pikka>so you don't need the variables I linked at all
15:59<Pikka>:)
15:59<Pikka>good luck :)
15:59<drac_boy>is he already trying to code FIRS cargo stations? :)
15:59<andythenorth>CHIPS
16:00<drac_boy>heh, have fun with it :p
16:00<frosch123>http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/Callbacks#Station_sprite_layout_.2814.29 <- andythenorth: stations first call cb14, which then selects a layout from action0. then the normal sprite action123 is resolved, using the sets as specified in the selected layout
16:01<frosch123>err, the layout specifies which sprites to use from a set
16:01<frosch123>the normal a123 selects the set to use
16:01<xiong>Sorry, frosch123; I got distracted.
16:02-!-teggi [teggi@175.100.202.84.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
16:02<xiong>frosch123, I created the scenario on 2012 Apr 03.
16:02*drac_boy isn't sure I'll do that much of stations, just probably static ones and/or leave it to be compactible with jcindust.grf instead
16:03<frosch123>xiong: well, please create a bug report then :)
16:03<andythenorth>afaict Yexo has coded existing stations without cb14
16:03<xiong>I would, frosch123; but you've got a bug report system that's only open to developers.
16:03<andythenorth>or people who bother to register :)
16:04<@Alberth>devs also have to register :p
16:04<xiong>At first I wasn't even sure it was a bug; I thought it might have been lack of comprehension.
16:04<frosch123>andythenorth: quite possible, usually they have the same bounding box layout anyway
16:05<frosch123>xiong: you have to registers to post stuff, yes
16:05<frosch123>only reading is free :)
16:05<xiong>It's not clear to me, sorry. /me looks.
16:06<andythenorth>-1 * 0 02 04 00 80 00 10 02 \wx00 \wx01
16:06<andythenorth>what's that doing?
16:08<xiong>Ah! I seem already to have an account.
16:09<frosch123>andythenorth: it's a random action 2
16:09<andythenorth>ah
16:10<frosch123>it uses random bit 16 (the first shared random bits) to select between sets 0 and 1
16:10<frosch123>s/sets/action2 id/
16:10<andythenorth>k
16:13<Pikka>can anyone tell me
16:14<Pikka>if "largertowns is enabled, and it allows to grow this town larger " in town var 40 == the "city" flag in OpenTTD?
16:14<frosch123>yes
16:14<Pikka>ripper
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16:15<frosch123>2 if the advanced setting for larger towns is disabled
16:15<frosch123>1 if the town is a larger town
16:15<frosch123>0 else
16:15<Eddi|zuHause>there is a setting for larger towns?
16:16<frosch123>you can set the amount of larger towns
16:16<frosch123>and 0 disables it or so
16:16<Eddi|zuHause>interesting
16:17<FLHerne>What does "make: *** [all] Error 1" actually mean?
16:17<FLHerne>I know it means that I got the patch updating wrong again, but other than that it doesn't tell me much
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16:18<andythenorth>ach
16:18*andythenorth admits defeat
16:18<andythenorth>do I need to define a layout per cargo state in action 0 or is it magic?
16:19<drac_boy>hmm anyone here know a bit deutsch? I'm just curious about why two words are the way they are (I already know the translation btw)
16:19<Eddi|zuHause>FLHerne: "1" is the return code of the last program
16:19<xiong>http://bugs.openttd.org/task/5139
16:19<xiong>If I've done that wrong, please tell me.
16:20<FLHerne>Eddi|zuHause: Would that be gcc then in this case?
16:20<teggiiii>what on earth happened to the lights
16:20<Eddi|zuHause>FLHerne: that should be in one of the previous lines
16:20<drac_boy>question is... how come Tenderlokomotive is for a tank locomotive while Schlepptenderlok is for a tender locomotive ... I just don't seem to really understand why the former word is the way it is
16:21<teggiiii>i've got two tracks next to eachother, one back and one forth between two stations, and lights in both direction (driving on the right side basically), and two trains just went on a set of tracks each
16:21<teggiiii><- confused.
16:21<Eddi|zuHause>drac_boy: "schleppen" means "drag", so a "Schlepptenderlok" drags a tender, while a "Tenderlok" has a builtin tender
16:21<drac_boy>teggiiii you sure its normal light not Path lights? because the latter can be passed at wrong-direction
16:21<teggiiii>drac_boy honestly not sure
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16:22<drac_boy>eddi why couldn't I think of that. thanks as usual -_-
16:22<teggiiii>drac_boy seems they are path lights.. :) thanks
16:22<FLHerne>make[1]: Leaving directory `/home/francis/ottdsrc/openttd5/objs/release' make: *** [all] Error 1
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16:23<frosch123>FLHerne: that line is pointless, you have to look at the error before that
16:23<drac_boy>teggiiii well change it to normal lights and presto it can't be used wrong-direction
16:23<drac_boy>hope that solves your simple problem heh
16:23<teggiiii>it does :p
16:23<FLHerne>Compiling the sqvm I believe: [SRC] Compiling 3rdparty/squirrel/squirrel/sqvm.cpp
16:23<teggiiii>*smacks forehead*_
16:24<drac_boy>teggiiii I'll never understand why its set as the default tho..not a very good idea
16:24<drac_boy>oh well :)
16:24<teggiiii>i concur, i just used the regular hotkey and placed my signals as i did before :p
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16:24<Eddi|zuHause>teggiiii: the rightmost signal is a path signal that block going backwards (it should have a red sign or something on the back)
16:24<FLHerne>Odd, because none of the patches I've been poking modify that file in any way :/
16:25<drac_boy>teggiiii mm well since I usually do many single lines I always use the basic signals by default, programmable ones once in a while. and well I do use PBS in a rare junction at times
16:25<Eddi|zuHause>FLHerne: if you do "make -j<n>" or something, the last line needn't be the one with the error
16:26<Eddi|zuHause>FLHerne: better you give us the full log, though, instead of pasting random lines :)
16:26<drac_boy>eddi so I guess 'dampflokomotive' would be the generic word 'steam locomotive' while the two terms mentioned above would differ the two types but they're still steam unless noted regardingly. am I thinking correctly here? :)
16:27<Eddi|zuHause>drac_boy: the word "dampf"/"steam" is redundant in those cases, yes
16:28<FLHerne>Eddi|zuHause: http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/1293/
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16:29<FLHerne>Now it happens when I use the same patch that I compiled earlier... :|
16:30<Eddi|zuHause>FLHerne: try an unpatched build? that log really does not show anything relevant
16:31<frosch123>try "make clean" or "./configure"
16:31<Eddi|zuHause>FLHerne: but if it was an actual code error, gcc usually returns "2", not "1", that is more a general "something fishy is going on" error
16:32<FLHerne>Eddi|zuHause: Does checking out everything from the repo again count?
16:32<FLHerne>Will try building plain trunk
16:33<@Alberth>*everything* ??
16:34<@Alberth>that's a lot :p
16:34<drac_boy>heh
16:34<Wolf01>I tried *everything*, it disconnected me after 50MB
16:34*Alberth never dared that
16:35<FLHerne>Ok...'Everything' being complete source for current trunk in this case:P
16:35<Wolf01>I wanted to checkout trunk only, but I missed the /trunk/ part on the url
16:36<@Alberth>Wolf01: I always do a 'svn ls .....' first to check that I am copying what I think I am ;)
16:37<FLHerne>I did that earlier - noticed after a few minutes though :P
16:39<drac_boy>optional question, would '2-axles' in english translate to '2 Achsen'?
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16:40<FLHerne>Trunk doesn't break, my version still does. Presumably broke something in that patch since the last time I compiled, and then forgot :P
16:40<andythenorth>http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/1295/
16:40<andythenorth>^ help :|
16:40<frosch123>drac_boy: yes
16:40<andythenorth>this causes cargo to flip between 'none' and 'lots', missing out 'some'
16:40<andythenorth>also the buy menu shows 'lots'
16:41<frosch123>what's the threshold in action?
16:41<frosch123>action0?
16:41<andythenorth>prop 10 action 0
16:42<xiong>Well, in any case, I did not discover the lost settings issue until well into a game. I've changed the settings but now I'm stuck. Autorenew is not a problem but what can I do about maintenance interval? I have 7 trains; I can chnage those by hand. I have 72 road vehicles; I cannot, reasonably.
16:42<Eddi|zuHause>drac_boy: alternatively could say "2-achsig"
16:42<andythenorth>it appears to flip around 250 items waiting
16:44<andythenorth>it's almost as though the action 1 is wrong
16:44<andythenorth>http://hg.openttdcoop.org/chips/raw-file/03e5b53ab736/sprites/graphics/pigs_cargo.png
16:44<andythenorth>it goes from first sprite to third in spritesheet ^
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16:46<frosch123>i think you have to swap the order of sprites
16:46<frosch123>x and y should alternate
16:46<andythenorth>ok
16:46<andythenorth>I'll try
16:46<andythenorth>afaict the other CHIPS stuff doesn't
16:47<frosch123>i cannot remember :)
16:47<andythenorth>yeah that works
16:48*andythenorth wonders if the other CHIPS tiles are bugged and nobody noticed :)
16:49<drac_boy>eddi so I could go with either '2 Achsen Tender' or '2-achsig Tender' I'm assuming?
16:49<drac_boy>andythenorth don't you think they look a bit too oinkly CLEAN?? heh :-)
16:50<Rhamphoryncus>About where is the threshold for CHIPS? I've got one going right now
16:50<andythenorth>not sure
16:50<andythenorth>I don't understand the code :)
16:50<Rhamphoryncus>heh
16:50<@Alberth>andythenorth: that's false, some andythenorth noticed
16:51*andythenorth remembers how to write CPP
16:51<andythenorth>what larks
16:52<frosch123>night
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16:52<Rhamphoryncus>Yeah, I'm only seeing one sprite. 0 is empty, 1 through 100 has the same large pile of coal
16:52<Rhamphoryncus>Didn't go past that
16:53<__ln__>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:VW_T1-BD_20-5031.JPG
16:55<CIA-1>OpenTTD: alberth * r24099 /trunk/src/ (debug.cpp debug.h openttd.cpp): -Add: Output list of -d option facilities with in the help text.
16:56<@Alberth>good night all
16:57<Rubidium>night Alberth
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17:10<drac_boy>hmm was just thinking about something off to the side..can a locomotive have different sprites depending on which railtype it is running on at the moment?
17:14<Rhamphoryncus>I heard it suggested earlier. Dunno if it's actually in the code
17:15<Rhamphoryncus>Overhead vs third rail would be an example
17:15<Pikka>yes it can drac_boy
17:15<Rubidium>drac_boy: sadly enough, for performance, they can
17:15<Pikka>:]
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17:16<drac_boy>pikka heh I was just thinking about the extra zoom-in level thats present in Chrill build then I was thinking that it could be interesting to draw the pantographs on dual-mode locomotives in either up or down position to look more relastic :)
17:17<drac_boy>and thats just a simple example, I probably could think of more others
17:19<Pikka>the 92 in UKRS2 lowers its pantograph on 3rd rail
17:19<Pikka>the rest don't because I couldn't be bothered
17:19<andythenorth>hmm
17:19<andythenorth>CHIPS 0.7.0 might be done
17:19<andythenorth>should I release it?
17:19<andythenorth>or can I go to bed instead?
17:19<Pikka>if it's done, then yes
17:19<Pikka>if it only might be done, then sleep on it
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17:20<andythenorth>it only might be done
17:20<andythenorth>need to make a tile date sensitive
17:20<andythenorth>as massive silos in 1850 would look silly
17:20<andythenorth>also the wifi here is crappy :P
17:22<xiong>Console output: "'servint_ispercent' is an unknown setting."
17:22<drac_boy>andythenorth you can set station tiles to be released on certain dates...its already simple I think
17:23<drac_boy>japstat does it with the non-rail tower buildings
17:23<andythenorth>it's a cb
17:23<andythenorth>cb13
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17:30<Rhamphoryncus>Rubidium: another thought: cache the size on each vehicle, ignore size changes that happen in response to just rendering (treat them as an error).
17:31<Rhamphoryncus>That assumes you can isolate all the state of that callback so that it can be per-client
17:36<andythenorth>ach that's done
17:37<andythenorth>not releasing now though
17:37<andythenorth>CHIPS for breakfast
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17:38<drac_boy>heh
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17:44<drac_boy>anyway looks like I got all steam locomotives and wagons finished except for prices ... still trying to decide with the diesels/electrics :-/
17:52<FLHerne>drac_boy: What set are you making?
17:54<drac_boy>fhlerne its hmm like a small generic set. not related to any country (although certain details such as signals may resemble a specific one after all)
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17:58<drac_boy>flherne maybe you could try out the vehicles-only beta grf that'll come out somewhere this month if you want to ;)
17:58<FLHerne>Ok, sounds interesting
17:58<FLHerne>I'll test it if I can get this ridiculous mish-mash of patchesto actually compile :P
18:00<drac_boy>heh heh
18:02<FLHerne>I got fed up with Chill's pack, so I started trying to make my own. I now know why his is so far behind trunk. '<
18:03<FLHerne>AARGH!
18:03<drac_boy>FLHerne heh sorry i can't help with that :)
18:03<drac_boy>so you want know why I started thinking about this grf I'm currently working on now? :)
18:04<FLHerne>Might as well :-)
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18:06<FLHerne>Hmm. Must sleep.
18:06<FLHerne>'Night
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18:26*Rhamphoryncus ponders a NOT signal, so you can have edge triggered logic
18:27<drac_boy>heh I dunno what you're trying to do :)
18:28<Rhamphoryncus>It'd grossly simplify using signals for logic
18:28<Rhamphoryncus>You could release a train when another goes by, rather than only blocking trains
18:28<drac_boy>logic? if its red....stop :P
18:28<drac_boy>heh
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18:33<Rhamphoryncus>All I want is a simple flip-flop, but working around the race conditions of not having edge triggers adds a ton of work
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19:04*Rhamphoryncus gets his butt kicked in 1923 by property maintenance
19:05<drac_boy>heh have a lot of slow roads or something?
19:08<Rhamphoryncus>long sprawling roads and rails, plus I'm using FIRS and haven't done any farmsup/engsup so the volume is very low, plus I'm testing a tweak to coal/oil payment that's probably pushing them down further
19:08<Rhamphoryncus>plus my stupid bridge trick XD
19:09<drac_boy>heh well I don't know what to tell you as usual :-)
19:11<Rhamphoryncus>I might pull out of it, but it'll involve several years of saving up to build 25 tiles of road and a few trucks to deliver goods to a town, causing it to grow and feed the pax trains sufficiently
19:11<Sahri>O.o
19:11<Sahri>That is just sick
19:12<drac_boy>25 tiles? just why are you using such a high value in basecost? :)
19:12<Rhamphoryncus>If it was a real company I'd liquidate half the assets
19:12<Rhamphoryncus>Not XD
19:12<Rhamphoryncus>I'm literally on the brink. Had one bankruptcy warning already
19:12<Rhamphoryncus>It's bouncing above and below $0
19:12<Sahri>D:
19:13<Sahri>Why the high base costs for roads
19:13<Rhamphoryncus>They're *not* high
19:13<Sahri>or infrastructure in general
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19:13<Rhamphoryncus>We're talking $9000 for the roads
19:13<Sahri>Oh. I thought you were using a GRF that altered that
19:14<Rhamphoryncus>I simply have too little volume for my infrastructure
19:14<Sahri>Ohh you just started out with low funds
19:14<drac_boy>9000? hmm well to me that might be rather high but I guess we maybe have different ideas of what the 'road surface' should be :)
19:14<Rhamphoryncus>Started with half a million loan limit
19:14<Rhamphoryncus>And until recently I had it payed off
19:15<Rhamphoryncus>Spent it all.. and now going into debt :)
19:15<Sahri>i usually start out with €200.000 and borrow €800.000 more
19:15<xiong>Sorry; I have to ask one final time; I have a lot of time invested in this game. Is there any way to reset the maint intervals for all vehicles, short of popping open each GUI? If I can't figure this out, the game is going into the bit bucket.
19:16<Rhamphoryncus>xiong: nope
19:16<Rhamphoryncus>Most people turn off breakdowns
19:16*Sahri is one of them
19:17<drac_boy>I usually start with like 300,000 to 1050,000DEM depending on what kind of map I was thinking of doing
19:17<drac_boy>300,000DEM barely gets you one full trainset with some tracks and a bit left over to tidy out till the profits builds up
19:17<drac_boy>^_^
19:17<xiong>Yes, it's tempting to play without breakdowns. More than once I've been tempted to play with more money, too, or allow player to destroy things arbitrarily, such as misplaced industries.
19:18<Sahri>I usually hunt for subsidies to pay off my debt to the bank fast
19:18<Sahri>Wouldn't you need a GRF to do that?
19:18<Rhamphoryncus>32 trains, 51 road vehicles, 6 ships, 4630 rail pieces, 1048 road tiles, 201 station tiles
19:18<drac_boy>sahri I don't bother..they're always often crappy ones, not to mention that a lot of the times its only like 10-20 tiles apart...not very helpful for distance/profit ratio :)
19:18<xiong>But if there are no breakdowns then it becomes possible to build a perfect network, given enough patience; nothing ever disturbs the perfect balance. Life is not perfect.
19:19<Rhamphoryncus>If you know how you can build a perfect network with breakdowns too. It just takes twice as many tracks.
19:19<xiong>Most of my designs revolve around breakdown tolerance.
19:20<xiong>Sorry, Rhamphoryncus; that won't work. Even a four-track line can jam if there are simultaneous breakdowns; and it's almost impossible to design a true dual path at all points.
19:20<Rhamphoryncus>uhh, do it properly :P
19:20<Rhamphoryncus>Even brief interruptions don't matter. It's total throughput that counts
19:21<drac_boy>I'll be honest but I play with breakdowns off because in RL my locomotives would had taken monthly rotations out of the repair shed. and spend a light overhaul each few years
19:21<xiong>Brief interruptions fall under the heading of less-than-perfect. I manage, even with breakdowns, to maintain extremely consistent service.
19:21<Sahri>The whole passenger issue is still annoying me though. Even in a town with a population of 2k I still can't attract that many passengers. And I have turned off that option where cargo only pops up if there's a demand
19:21<drac_boy>so the game's breakdown would be too unrelastic for my mode
19:21<Sahri>I don't mind having 1k passengers wait XD
19:22<Rhamphoryncus>Sahri: throw a screenshot on imgur
19:22<Rhamphoryncus>drac_boy: yeah
19:22<Sahri>Well, it was on my old savegame which I threw away
19:22<Rhamphoryncus>I also find the breakdown noise grating
19:22<Rhamphoryncus>heh
19:23<Rhamphoryncus>I've got a town of 700 people that's doing 22/month (max 83)
19:23<xiong>Sahri, I have found it most useful to run not only a feeder service but "keeper" service. Buses and trucks are ordered repeatedly to the same station; the order is "Transfer and take cargo".
19:24<xiong>drac_boy, I agree that the breakdown rate, even "Reduced", is excessive. Before all just give up and play with no breakdowns at all, it might be good simply to rename "Reduced" to "High" and add a "Low" rate.
19:25<Wolf01>'night all
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19:26<Rhamphoryncus>There's an improved breakdowns patch out there that adds more variety
19:26<drac_boy>xiong I'm planning to not factor in reliability with my grf anyhow, and if anyone complains I'll just tell them to use a different grf then - simple enough :)
19:27<xiong>Oh no, not that!
19:27<xiong>What will your grf do, drac_boy?
19:27<Rhamphoryncus>The whole logic is broken though. There's actually two counters: one goes up (it's invisible), the other goes down (the one you see). When they meet you get a breakdown and the first one resets. The second one resets when you get maintenance
19:27<Rhamphoryncus>(the actually formula may be slightly different, but afaik that's the result)
19:28<drac_boy>xiong, what do you mean by that question?
19:28<xiong>Ye gods, Rhamphoryncus; that's awful. I had no idea. That explains why my vehicles break down right out of depot. You can't actually avoid breakdowns, then; not even with near-continuous depoting.
19:28<Rhamphoryncus>xiong: yup
19:29<xiong>drac_boy, you said "my grf". I want to know what sort of grf it is... or will be.
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19:30<xiong>There *is* an improved breakdowns patch; it's included in chillpack. Why not trunk it?
19:30<drac_boy>xiong ah its a small generic set.. doesn't correspond to anything real (although signals etc would resemble a particular real example on other hand)
19:30<xiong>I've tried it and I think it, too, has too many breakdowns. But at least there's some variety to them.
19:30<drac_boy>eg just a "2-6-0 tender locomotive" etc
19:31<xiong>Well, you mean a vehicle set. Okay.
19:31<drac_boy>not ust vehicle but a combined set
19:31<drac_boy>ust=just*
19:31<xiong>So your vehicles will all come with 100% max reliability?
19:31<xiong>Combined with what?
19:32<drac_boy>station, etc
19:32<Rhamphoryncus>xiong: I suspect that patch doesn't change when breakdowns happen, just what happens when one triggers
19:33<xiong>Well, I will take 100% max; it's a good step.
19:33<xiong>Rhamphoryncus, there is certainly a setting for breakdown frequency; it's a Difficulty Setting. Why not just increase its range... on the low end?
19:34<xiong>Not a perfect solution but an improvement.
19:34<Rhamphoryncus>Exactly. It's a patch, not a fix
19:34<Rhamphoryncus>A fix is possible, it just needs to be designed and implemented
19:34<xiong>I'd accept a nasty kludge with a bag on it, if that's all I could get.
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19:35<xiong>I think I understand why the silly counter business. Otherwise, you'd be hitting the PRNG all the time, for each vehicle; and that's way expensive.
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19:38<drac_boy>xiong the reason I decided to start with vehicles but slowly make it somewhat a completed set was because of certain differences especially building scale. bit hard to explain it, you'll just have to wait a few months to see some mockups of that
19:39<argent0>Hi, I'm playing with AI development I wonder where are the enums like CargoClass declared? Which library should import or require?
19:44<Rhamphoryncus>xiong: no, there's other ways of doing it that'd be better
19:44<Rhamphoryncus>But I bet the original TT author didn't know about htem
19:45<drac_boy>xiong as for 100% reliabilty well thats not possible. the vehicles always age over time meaning lower %
19:46<xiong>Of course they age. So starting at 100% max reliability would at least lessen breakdown frequency.
19:47<argent0>Ok, I found it! FYI its AICargo.CC_PASSENGERS
19:47<xiong>So in all this time, nobody thought to fix breakdowns... or just remove them? This is an argument against allowing them to be disabled.
19:47<argent0>*it's
19:48<drac_boy>xiong one of the other thing I had been thinking about was the unoffical dayextend hack on the exe itself. just a way to slow down the rapid years in-game :) (I dunno if theres anything similar for ottd too tho)
19:48<drac_boy>would make it easier to play a longer 1920-1970 period basically
19:49<xiong>Well, I don't know if I even want to get into a discussion of scale. I absolutely agree it needs fixed.
19:49<xiong>It's not quite as bad as RRT2, where a train could literally take years to complete a route.
19:50<Rhamphoryncus>s/fixed/improved/
19:51<xiong>Often I built trains and started them off to a BS intermediate station, then built the track in sections to the final destination, changing orders all the time. By the time the train arrived, it was obsolete, so I sold it. By then, of course, I'd already have bought new ones and started them off.
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19:52<xiong>Time and space scales are all way off.
19:52<Rhamphoryncus>There's two aspects to improve on: day length (game time) and vehicle speed (real time). The latter is more important for gameplay, but harder
19:52<Rhamphoryncus>Of course they are, it's a game :P
19:53<xiong>Hot tip: It does not take even a 1-horse horse carriage a month to circle the block.
19:53<Rhamphoryncus>GAME.
19:53<xiong>Simulation.
19:53<drac_boy>well Rhamphoryncus thats why I decided to go with a different scale for everything so 'one tile' would resemble a more relastic 'one tile' than it does at the current scale
19:53<xiong>"Game" implies winning and losing, which is more or less impossible here.
19:53<drac_boy>hard to explain now tho, you'll have to wait for the early trains-only grf to see
19:54<Rhamphoryncus>xiong: nuh uh :P
19:54<drac_boy>xiong nope its not
19:54<drac_boy>ever heard of the saying "its just a game!" meaning to stop taking it too seriously :p
19:54<Rhamphoryncus>(Besides, I'm clearly proving that it's possible to lose *g*)
19:55<xiong>I can't imagine what combination of custom factors would introduce an element of real risk.
19:55<xiong>I imagine one could stack them so heavily that play would become impossible; but I wouldn't know how.
19:56<Rhamphoryncus>Next thing you know you'll be arguing that we don't accurately model expansion of steam in the boiler, as influenced by different grades of coal, and what effect it has on wear and passenger comfort :P
19:56<xiong>No, I'm not a silly person.
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19:56<xiong>I'm a serious person, which silly people tend to think is... silly.
19:56<Rhamphoryncus>haw :P
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19:56<drac_boy>heh Rhamphoryncus try fire a steam locomotive on high grade dry coal verus one that has a lot of half-dirt wet coals cinkering up easily :)
19:57<Rhamphoryncus>:D
19:57<xiong>Clue: I don't play Toyland.
19:57<drac_boy>you mean toyland as-is or toyland with a nice grf for it? :P
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19:58<xiong>I've played quite a few games until I hit several million dollars in hand; I don't see what possible chance there is to lose.
19:58<xiong>I suppose if you're inexperienced enough, you can blow it all at start. I've seen enough AIs do just that.
19:59<Rhamphoryncus>Startup can be challenging, depending on your settings and newgrfs
19:59<Rhamphoryncus>The game was originally challenging to me, many years back
19:59<Rhamphoryncus>and several million? A few games back I hit 3 billion
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20:00<xiong>I've always quit by that point. I start in 1850 and only one of my games lasted to 1900... maybe two.
20:00<xiong>By that time, I've discovered some technical aspect of my layout unsatisfactory and I start over.
20:01<xiong>I now have what I think of as a solid junction and what seems to be very plausible stations for pax and freight both. I keep thinking that this game will be one worth taking all the way... to 2050, I guess is the end?
20:03<Rhamphoryncus>Original game was 1950..2050 (or am I little off?) Openttd removed the limits. Starting in 1100 if you want. Just have to make yourself vehicles :P
20:03<Rhamphoryncus>And beware inflation, heh
20:03<xiong>I've evolved my strategy, no doubt about it. I now build four big stations on a 256-by map, and run feeders to them. Pax and frieght are totally isolated -- separate trains, separate tracks.
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20:05<xiong>I don't know any vehicle sets that go back to 1100. Sailing Ships goes back to 1700. I've been tempted to try a start then.
20:05<drac_boy>one thing I've liked is to do with japset ... different class of locomotives/wagons for same cargos .. and on top of actually having runcost for wagons too
20:05<drac_boy>hoping to do the same thing here too but we'll have to see
20:07<xiong>While you're at it... freight yards, classification yards where trains can be made up. And fix cargodist, too. Bills of lading are basic to transportation. I've never in my life walked into a bus station, Amshack, or airport and asked for the first ticket out to anywhere.
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20:07<drac_boy>umm just what are you talking about? :p
20:08<Rhamphoryncus>He's trying to simulate real life
20:09<drac_boy>dunno what that has to do with the rail depot to start with ;)
20:09<Rhamphoryncus>is this just real life? Is this just fantasy?
20:09<drac_boy>hmm...I need to find the word for 'boxcab' now...
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20:17<xiong>Now I'm stuck with Queen in my head... I blame Rhamphoryncus.
20:17<Rhamphoryncus>Stuck in a landslide..
20:18<Rhamphoryncus>"Or give up your reliance on dangerous old grilling technology and go with a propane gas grill. After all, what's safer than a grill with a large tank of highly flammable gas that a 3-year-old can turn on?" XD
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20:25<Rhamphoryncus>Or that a 40-year-old refuses to turn off because it's not dangerous enough...
20:27<drac_boy>heh
20:28<xiong>Propane is God. All you taste is the meat. Hank Hill says so; and if you can't trust Hank Hill, who?
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20:34<drac_boy>hmm to have different sprites for MU units or not
20:35<drac_boy>heh :-s
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20:52*drac_boy kind of misses jamie tho
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21:33<xiong>"Hank believes that selling propane through honesty and hard work is what life is all about."
21:45<drac_boy>xiong do you like to use propane? :)
21:45<drac_boy>heh
21:46<xiong>I admire Hank Hill.
21:46<drac_boy>that wasn't the question
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21:59<Fori>Hi there!
21:59<Fori>I could use some help with ECS parameters. If someone's willing to help, just send me a whisper :)
22:00<drac_boy>hi fori...and which ecs?
22:00<Fori>Uhm. We activated all of em :)
22:00<Fori>The wiki only said "quite complicated" not "impossible" ^^
22:00<drac_boy>in that case, there's usually a parameter for each single one of them..and its in the readme file..or if you didn't download it then check the wiki for a copy
22:01<Fori>It's mainly that I selected "Infinite ore" and that's simly not working because all the industry have some "... remaining".
22:03<xiong>drac_boy, I will do almost anything to avoid a barbecue regardless of fuel.
22:04<xiong>The last barbecue I attended was... about 4 years ago, I think. I spent the entire time wishing desperately for something to do. The only productive activity was grilling the food, which was taken. I leapt at the chance to drive to the store for more aluminum foil and made the errand last as long as I could.
22:04<drac_boy>xiong heh, so never use propane then?
22:05<xiong>Um, actually, yes.
22:05<xiong>Now that I think about it... although not for some time.
22:06<xiong>I have the bad habit of speaking my mind... which has occasioned poverty. Therefore, I've spent a lot of time living in what I call hot-plate rooms, because hot plates are always forbidden... and everyone has a hot plate. Or, at least they did before microwaves became cheap.
22:06<Fori>Drac? You got any idea why my selected parametrs don't work?
22:07<xiong>Well, I detest cooking on electric... which reminds me of a serious shortcoming in this apartment... and in any case, hot plates are forbidden. So I have, and have used, a small propane stove for the same purpose.
22:08<drac_boy>fori no idea sorry, not interested in downloading it to look at readme atm
22:09<xiong>It has never occurred to me, of my own volition, to expose meat to an open flame. I thought we moved beyond that technology... some time ago.
22:09<xiong>Some time after the invention of pottery, or at least iron working.
22:17<drac_boy>xiong btw I don't even have a microwave..it wouldn't had worked at all anyway
22:23<Rhamphoryncus>Fori: Try applying infinite ore to each of the newgrfs, not just the main (town) one
22:25<drac_boy>ok 2 old reference sheets deleted, a few more locomotives to look at drawing the sprites for, and some further idea notes. think I'm taking a break from this as usual and go to bed
22:26<drac_boy>bye :p
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22:29<Fori>Hi Rhampho!
22:29<Fori>Thanks for that tip. Did that already...
22:29<Fori>Doesnt work.
22:29<Rhamphoryncus>The is the amount remaining in a mine? Not amount waiting to be processed in a secondary industry?
22:30<Fori>Yeah. I also wanted to set up the maximum stockpile off... But still it says (Max. xxx)
22:30<Fori>Dunno what's happening there :(
22:30<Rhamphoryncus>It'll keep accepting past the limit
22:31<Fori>Will it? So there's still a limit shown?
22:31<Fori>Even if the parameter is working?
22:31<Rhamphoryncus>Many industries won't scale up any further though
22:31<Rhamphoryncus>Yes. Max xxx will switch from green to red when at the limit
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22:32<Fori>But still accept the cargo?
22:32<Fori>And for the producing industries... Will they actually use nothing? Or just refill from time to time?
22:32<Rhamphoryncus>accept, just not produce any extra
22:32<Rhamphoryncus>I believe the limit doesn't go down
22:33<Rhamphoryncus>They just sit permanently at xxxx left
22:33<Fori>k
22:33<Fori>When's an industries "Level up" calculated?
22:33<Rhamphoryncus>It's complicated
22:34<Fori>When some industry needs three goods. Will it only start producing when it gets all three?
22:35<Rhamphoryncus>For stock industries it depends on station rating (or rather % transported). 60%+ is the "good" threshold, 80% is the "excellent" threshold
22:35<Rhamphoryncus>in ECS? Some do, some don't
22:35<Fori>k
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---Logclosed Sun Apr 08 00:00:52 2012