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#openttd IRC Logs for 2012-04-08

---Logopened Sun Apr 08 00:00:52 2012
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02:04<andythenorth>mornings
02:04<andythenorth>all of them
02:20<Arafangion>andythenorth: Omnipresent, are you?
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02:51<andythenorth>CHIPS for breakfast :)
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02:55<Arafangion>andythenorth: Just for today, or always? :)
02:57<andythenorth>just today
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03:06<andythenorth>so showing cargo waiting for Grain is tricky
03:06<andythenorth>grain is not left lying around uncovered generally
03:09<Arafangion>andythenorth: For cotton in Australia, they have massive piles of it they just dump on a sheet on the ground, then cover that with a plastic sheet.
03:09<Arafangion>andythenorth: Could show grain by having sealed silos... With empty silos "open for repair/cleaning"?
03:09<andythenorth>could be
03:10<andythenorth>or there are grain store buildings with open doors
03:10<Arafangion>Doubt it... They're usually in silos.
03:11<Arafangion>Filled from the top.
03:11<Arafangion>thing is you want to keep the silo *dry*, easy to fill, and easy to drain of grain - and also safe, you don't want anyone to fall in.
03:11<Arafangion>Because then they will choke! :)
03:12<andythenorth>http://www.collinson.co.uk/assets/Grain%20Store%20v17%20door%20open.355x295-4f61d8b422419.jpg
03:13<Arafangion>Weird, I've never seen that.
03:13<Arafangion>That would be difficult to unload.
03:13<andythenorth>pretty common in UK
03:13<andythenorth>use a front loader to unload
03:13<Arafangion>Weird. :)
03:13<Arafangion>Anyway, I'm off!
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04:13<@Terkhen>good morning
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04:55<andythenorth>hmm
04:55<andythenorth>compiling FIRS with grfcodec is insanely faster than nmlc :)
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05:09<andythenorth>BANDITS!
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05:25*Alberth takes his riffle, throws table over for extra cover, and watches for any movement, ready to kill the bad guys
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05:30<Eddi|zuHause>Rhamphoryncus: you do know there already exists a NAND signal patch?
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06:00<@Alberth>andythenorth: I was wondering whether you can use your parallellization trick in BANDITS, in nml
06:00<andythenorth>I wondered that
06:00<andythenorth>but I know nothing about the internals
06:00<andythenorth>nor what is slow
06:01<andythenorth>:)
06:01<andythenorth>presumably processes could be spawned to encode pngs, or parse blocks of switches or whatever
06:02<andythenorth>hmm
06:02*andythenorth wonders if nmlc can be persuaded to produce blocks of raw nfo, without header stuff
06:02<@Alberth>yep, although to some extent it is just hiding the problem
06:02<Eddi|zuHause>move nml to c++ :)
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06:02<andythenorth>I'm already encoding BANDIT with grfcodec because it's ~twice as fast
06:03<andythenorth>I'll probably have to figure out how to switch FIRS to grfcodec
06:03<andythenorth>I realised earlier - one of the things that puts me off FIRS dev is a very long compile time
06:03<Eddi|zuHause>in CETS, nml is spending now half the time in ply
06:03<Eddi|zuHause>after i removed the whole template calculation
06:03<xahodo>Hello
06:04<Eddi|zuHause>so expression evaluation is _really_ slow
06:04*andythenorth is wondering whether to mix in nfo
06:04<@Alberth>likely they do something wrong, how difficult can evaluation be?
06:04<andythenorth>will nmlc ignore raw nfo that it encounters?
06:04<@Alberth>hi xahodo
06:04<andythenorth>FIRS is a 30-40s compile time
06:05<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: it will likely error out...
06:05<andythenorth>hmm
06:05<andythenorth>slow compile times make it less appealing to hack
06:05<andythenorth>and hacking is the only way I learn the code
06:05<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: but maybe you can make a special comment or #pragma
06:06<xahodo>um... where do vehicles select their next order?
06:06<Eddi|zuHause>xahodo: in LeaveStation()?
06:06<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: I was thinking more in the CETS case ;)
06:06<xahodo>thanks
06:07<andythenorth>nfo seems to parse varaction 2 chains pretty near-enough instantly
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06:07<@Alberth>Eddi|zuHause: add a 'literal' block ? not sure how it affects the code generation, as it has to account for the nfo
06:07<Eddi|zuHause>xahodo: just a wild guess
06:08<@Alberth>allowing modular compile has likely a much better impact
06:08<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: the problem with "inline asm" is generally referencing outside values, like parameter and action2 ids
06:08*Alberth nods
06:09<@Alberth>but that's why you have linking
06:09<andythenorth>hmm, so nmlc has to resolve all those identifiers and such?
06:09<Eddi|zuHause>and nml's accounting of used IDs is also affected
06:09*andythenorth is a complete compiling newbie
06:10<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: yes, each identifier gets an ID number that must be unique between the definition and the last use of the identifier
06:10<andythenorth>is that a linear problem or some O?
06:11*Alberth choses O, since O(1) contains the former option :p
06:11<@Alberth>I doubt it is linear
06:12<xahodo>Well, it appears it doesn't over there... it only changes the vehicle's state to leaving station.
06:13<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: you need to traverse the tree multiple times, otherwise you cannot free an ID because you don't know whether it's going to be used again
06:14<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: all the list and uniqueness handling in each node makes it probably slightly more than linear, but less than quadratic
06:15<@Alberth>one backward sweep and one forward sweep should cover most of the problem
06:15<k-man>whats the keyboard shortcut to pause?
06:16<Eddi|zuHause>k-man: pause or F1
06:16<@Alberth>f1
06:17<@Alberth>xahodo: find the name of the structure containing a single order, and look for uses in the vehicle code
06:18<@Alberth>or look in vehicle functions for 'order' code
06:18<Rubidium>or just at everything that calls ProcessOrders
06:18<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: there are generally two kinds of algorithm involved with compiling. the first kind is "easy" problems of O(nlogn) or O(n^p) for a small p, or "difficult" problems which are EXPSPACE and beyond, but "those cases never appear in real applications"
06:19<Eddi|zuHause>the latter kind is fairly common in compiler-generators
06:21<andythenorth>:)
06:22<Eddi|zuHause>(e.g. taking a grammar and making an efficient parser out of it)
06:29<xahodo>I just found where the next order is selected... at least, for trains, that is.
06:29-!-drac_boy [~drac_boy@modemcable085.125-161-184.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #openttd
06:29<drac_boy>hi
06:29<xahodo>SwitchToNextOrder in train_cmd.cpp
06:31-!-frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590f59fd.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd
06:32<drac_boy>hi frosch123 :)
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06:33<frosch123>hmm happy cet morning?
06:33<frosch123>how does the uk call their summertime?
06:34<drac_boy>no idea, I'm far away from uk :)
06:34<drac_boy>how're you tho?
06:34<frosch123>awake
06:34<frosch123>not obvious?
06:35<drac_boy>heh not at first? :)
06:36<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: how do we know you're even human?
06:36<frosch123>when did i claim to be human?
06:36<frosch123>i am a frog, you know that
06:36<@peter1138>frosch123, wet
06:36<k-man>thanks Eddi|zuHause
06:37<frosch123>wet? like rainy?
06:37<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: but a frog that can count
06:37<@peter1138>yes :)
06:37<@peter1138>bst -- british summer time
06:37<drac_boy>heh
06:37<Eddi|zuHause>unlike a certain peter, whose fibonacci sequence misses a few numbers
06:38<Eddi|zuHause>1 1 (2) 3 (5) 8 ...
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06:39-!-peter01123581321345589 is now known as peter0112358132134558914423337
06:39<@peter0112358132134558914423337>thm
06:39<Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: obviously the next number in peter's sequence is 29
06:39<@peter0112358132134558914423337>cropped :(
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06:40<@peter1138>or 47 56 65 74 83 92
06:40<Eddi|zuHause>those are not on the lottery ticket :p
06:40<Rubidium>or 23
06:41<drac_boy>hm...tried draw a house again only to remember that I stopped because I didn't have any ground tile sprites to match to :-|
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06:41*drac_boy thinks what to draw now
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06:42<andythenorth>drac_boy: ground tiles are available
06:42<andythenorth>also
06:42<andythenorth>tarps!
06:42<drac_boy>tarps?
06:42<Eddi|zuHause>english only!
06:44<drac_boy>andythenorth whats tarps? and I dunno what the ground tiles are when grfcodec still has the same sprite 0 error
06:45<andythenorth>tarps! is just andythenorth being silly
06:45<drac_boy>heh well you could have considered saying 'tents' instead which would be the same thing...a tarp on the ground :P
06:45<drac_boy>just being silly ;)
06:46<andythenorth>and if you can't figure out your error, paste relevant stuff http://paste.openttdcoop.org/
06:48<drac_boy>I doubt theres anything that can be said about this error but since you asked, here it is http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/1296/
06:49*andythenorth shrug :)
06:49<andythenorth>do you expect it to be working, or are you still writing code?
06:50<xahodo>Why are orders handled all over the place?
06:51<drac_boy>andythenorth well I dunno why the ttd grf is the only things that doesn't work so far. and as for writing code I haven't really done much on that side yet - was planning to leave a fair chunk of that to someone else
06:54<Rhamphoryncus>Pfft, tents aren't tarps. In a pinch perhaps you could make a tent from a tarp, but they're not the same thing
06:55<drac_boy>yeah I know, I was being silly with andythenorth's answer ;)
06:57*Rhamphoryncus tarps drac_boy
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07:06<drac_boy>any station tiles larger than 1x1 has to be laid manually all the times, there's no way to use the 'drag and place' with such tiles, right?
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07:09<Achilleshiel>does anyone know how it is standing with ECS 1.2?
07:10<drac_boy>what do you mean by standing btw?
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07:13<@Alberth>Achilleshiel: only the author knows
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07:16<oskari89>Is FIRS 0.7.0 released?
07:19<@Alberth>bananas has 0.7.1 already
07:19<oskari89>Ok...
07:19<@Alberth>but the better place for this is either in the release thread of the grf, or in its project at the devzone
07:20<oskari89>It hasn't yet been compiled with Finnish translation?
07:20<@Alberth>the nightly may have
07:20<@Alberth>released versions are normally not changed after releae
07:20<@Alberth>*release
07:21<oskari89>Ok.
07:21<@Alberth>http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/nightlies/LATEST/ would be the one
07:22<andythenorth>last compile was yesterday
07:22<oskari89>Ok, thx :)
07:22<andythenorth>finnish and french translations should be there
07:23<@Alberth>http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/nightlies/LATEST/log/lang-finnish.lng.log log looks pretty good
07:24<@Alberth>just a few missing due to new changes
07:25<drac_boy>andythenorth btw I finally had a look at the whole forum thread.. CHIPS sure looks nic
07:25<drac_boy>nice*
07:25<andythenorth>thanks :)
07:25<andythenorth>it's close to 1.0 I think
07:25<drac_boy>a few of these building gave me a bit of ieas for a bit of mine
07:26<andythenorth>if I do much more it gets complicated, and CHIPS is meant to be simple
07:26<drac_boy>I still keep thinking the pigs are too clean heh heh
07:32<drac_boy>and yeah you're right..I do sometimes find some of the passenger station grfs a bit too 'big'
07:32-!-sla_ro|master [~slaco@95.76.26.172] has joined #openttd
07:32<drac_boy>remind me again why I've kinda been stuck to newstat+japstat .. still a decent choice without a big buy menu
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08:06<Jupix>planetmaker: ping?
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08:12<@Alberth>not today probably
08:12<Jupix>meh
08:12<Jupix>anyone else able to quickly grab a screenshot of the 1.2 title game without the hud?
08:14<Eddi|zuHause>what's a hud?
08:14*Alberth guesses the intro menu
08:14<Jupix>yeah nice brainfart, go me
08:14<Eddi|zuHause>you do know that you can just rename opntitle.dat
08:14<Eddi|zuHause>into opntitle.dat
08:14<Eddi|zuHause>er
08:14<Eddi|zuHause>.sav
08:14<Jupix>yup. but that would mean I'd have to DL and install the game client first :P
08:14<@Alberth>:)
08:14<Eddi|zuHause>then you can just load it
08:16<Achilleshiel>Alberth: btw, i fixed the Detailed Performance page;)
08:16<@Alberth>Jupix: one moment
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08:19<@Alberth> http://devs.openttd.org/~alberth/opntitle_1.2.png
08:19<Jupix>thx!
08:19<@Alberth>Achilleshiel: ok, thanks
08:21<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: why is that 1.5MB?
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08:28<@Alberth>Eddi|zuHause: I wished I knew
08:28<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: you enabled 32bpp or something?
08:28<@Alberth>I suspect it is a property of the nouveau driver
08:30<@Alberth>.cfg says blitter =
08:32<drac_boy>hmm I wonder if there was a good TSR screenshot app for dos
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08:32<drac_boy>or was that TRS...can't remember heh
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08:34<drac_boy>either way might be a bit better for grf screenshot than .pict
08:39<Eddi|zuHause>i once used a screenshot app bundled with WordPerfect
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08:39<Eddi|zuHause>but of course it was kinda futile trying to screenshot 256 colour games, when outside the game only 16 would be displayable
08:40<CornishPasty>:P
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08:45<drac_boy>heh eddi sounds like a poor limit in wordperfect's bundle :)
08:45<drac_boy>as it is right now I have to take a screenshot of patch from the desktop .... then crop out the excessive ... but its still a .pict file tho
08:46<drac_boy>so was just wondering, I'll figure out something soon either way tho
08:48<drac_boy>eddi how much colour do you have for your desktop?
08:48<drac_boy>usually its a million of colours (or 24-bit if you want it measured that way instead) for me :)
08:48<Eddi|zuHause>drac_boy: back then 256 colour modes were unavailable outside some convoluted game graphics drivers, which each game implemented differently
08:48<andythenorth>oh dear
08:49<andythenorth>it's working
08:49<Eddi|zuHause>drac_boy: so even being able to grab the screen in such modes was a wonder
08:49<drac_boy>ah I see, well I don't know much about dos from these years. I wasn't using pcs for quite a few years
08:50<drac_boy>andythenorth whats working?? :p
08:50<andythenorth>rendering truck bodies
08:50<andythenorth>it was already working, but now it's working differently
08:50<andythenorth>I thought changing it would be more painful than it was
08:50<drac_boy>heh so you mean "working but in a different way"? :)
08:50<andythenorth>turns out my code is now pretty modular
08:50<drac_boy>I see now
08:55<drac_boy>so what kind of trucks you drawing?
08:58<andythenorth>I'm teaching code to draw them for me
08:58<andythenorth>hmm
08:58<andythenorth>stations
08:58<andythenorth>how do I clear pylons?
08:58<andythenorth>prop 11 is failing
08:58<drac_boy>heh ok, have fun with him then? :)
08:58*drac_boy is chasing down technical details online again :-s
08:58<drac_boy>heh
09:01*andythenorth solves it
09:02-!-Wolf01 [~wolf01@host139-62-dynamic.252-95-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #openttd
09:02<Wolf01>hello
09:02<drac_boy>hi Wolf01
09:06<drac_boy>how're you wolf? :)
09:06<Wolf01>full
09:07-!-tokai|mdlx [~tokai@port-92-195-197-56.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Quit: c('~' )o]
09:07<drac_boy>heh just ate? :)
09:08<Wolf01>yes, and I really ate too much
09:11<drac_boy>what time is it there now?
09:11<Wolf01>15.51
09:12<Wolf01>*15.15
09:12<drac_boy>late lunch?
09:12<Wolf01>no, long lunch
09:13<drac_boy>well you always could exercise a bit in the afternoon and/or just have a small late supper
09:13<drac_boy>thats my thought ;)
09:13<Wolf01>I will have a small supper for sure
09:14<drac_boy>so beside food what else's going on? :)
09:15<Wolf01>minecraft, all the afternoon
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09:16<drac_boy>have fun with that :p
09:18<andythenorth>fricking minecrack
09:18<andythenorth>that gets nothing done :P
09:19<drac_boy>lol
09:20<drac_boy>you're funny :p
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09:21<andythenorth>hmm
09:21<andythenorth>stations to match the original TTD concrete texture (the hatched / gridded sprite used in cities etc)
09:21<andythenorth>?
09:22<drac_boy>lakie's glass station? not sure
09:22<andythenorth>I'm thinking of drawing one
09:22<andythenorth>won't match opengfx
09:22<andythenorth>[shrug]
09:23<andythenorth>gah
09:23<andythenorth>opengfx :o
09:24<andythenorth>every time I switch to opengfx (for testing) I start itching to redraw :P
09:27-!-MNIM [~mBuntu@ip5452ffad.adsl-surfen.hetnet.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
09:28<drac_boy>heh I don't have to bother supporting opengfx thankfully. sorry about you tho ;)
09:29-!-Pikka [~chatzilla@d58-106-21-132.rdl801.qld.optusnet.com.au] has joined #openttd
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09:30<drac_boy>hi pikka
09:30<Pikka>hello
09:31<drac_boy>pikka btw I was wondering about it for a while but only now remember about wanting to ask in here. whats the weather in australia like?
09:31<drac_boy>here its just been crazy.. warm and sunny one day then bit cold raining at night .. and next day is as out of whack too
09:33<Rubidium>drac_boy: apparantly between -1°C and 30°C
09:34<drac_boy>hmm so I guess the two countries are similar
09:34<Pikka>Australia is approximately the size of the continental USA or Europe.
09:34<Pikka>the weather in "australia" varies quite a bit.
09:34<Pikka>depending on where you are
09:36<Rubidium>USA seems to be -4 to 23 at the moment
09:36<Pikka>also I'm not sure I'd categorise "warm and sunny one day then bit cold raining at night" as "crazy"...
09:36<andythenorth>monsieur bird
09:36<andythenorth>bonjours
09:36<Pikka>bongiorno herr norda
09:36<andythenorth>wonder if my station set matches your tracks
09:36<andythenorth>let's find out
09:37<Pikka>I was about to download it this very
09:37<Pikka>Rubidium: where is it -1?
09:38<Pikka>macquarie island doesn't count as australia :P
09:38<Rubidium>Mt Wellington, Tas
09:38<Pikka>oh
09:38<Pikka>well, on top of a mountain is cheating too
09:39<Rubidium>I've got no clue what's exactly where
09:39<Pikka>the colder bits are south
09:39<Pikka>tasmania is a big island south of the mainland
09:39<Rubidium>but weatherzone does show the current extremes
09:39<andythenorth>how very finescale your tracks are :o
09:39<Pikka>macquarie island is a tiny island a long, long way south of tasmania
09:40<drac_boy>hmm
09:40<andythenorth>these are more in scale to the trains
09:41<andythenorth>makes the trams look pretty stupid though
09:41<Pikka>hmm?
09:41<andythenorth>finescale tram tracks?
09:41<Pikka>roadtypes
09:41<Pikka>:)
09:41<andythenorth>for HEQS, the 'trams' are 2' and 3' narrow gauge mostly
09:41<drac_boy>I know this may be a touchy question but what kind of hp did most of these older large traction motors for electric locomotives have? (you know the kind where eg you have a boxcab with driveaxle-driveaxle-motor-driveaxle siderods)
09:41<andythenorth>1,000
09:41<Pikka>why may this be a touchy question?
09:41<drac_boy>I dunno, just seem that way to me sorry :)
09:42<drac_boy>andythenorth so I guess that putting it down as 700hp for single and 1400hp for crocodile-alike locomotives on metre gauge wouldn't seem too far off then?
09:43<Pikka>GG1 traction motors are supposedly 385hp each
09:43<Rubidium>I'd reckon 42 ;)
09:43<Pikka>and it had 12 of them, two per axle.
09:43<Rubidium>though I conveniently leave the radix open ;)
09:43<drac_boy>yeah, three transformers too :p
09:43<andythenorth>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhaetian_Railway_Ge_6/6_I
09:43<Pikka>fancy
09:44<drac_boy>andythenorth ah I had forgotten that they had a swiss crocodile too. thanks. that answers my question already :)
09:44<andythenorth>hmm
09:44*drac_boy revises my table numbers
09:45<andythenorth>Pikka: the \ on a downslope has an oversized PBS reservation
09:45<Pikka>all the slopes do, I'm told
09:45<Pikka>It may be me or it may just be railtypes
09:46<andythenorth>also...why don't newgrf stations support railtypes in the buy menu?
09:46<andythenorth>meh
09:46<Pikka>just turn off "show reservations" ;)
09:46<Pikka>do they not?
09:46<drac_boy>heh
09:47<Pikka>hmm, I guess they don't :)
09:47<andythenorth>hmm
09:47<andythenorth>that reservations thing is probably fixable
09:48<andythenorth>probably just the wrong sprite being drawn
09:48<andythenorth>I learnt how railtype drawing works once, a long time ago :P
09:48*drac_boy is thankful for whoever posted that sticky-stickie formula on how to figure out hp/kn for steam locomotives
09:48<Pikka>hmm
09:49<Pikka>I may have accidentally added the ballast to sprites which shouldn't have had it
09:50*peter1138 ballasts pikka into outer space
09:50<drac_boy>lol
09:51<Pikka>oh, right
09:51<Pikka>I used the bridge sprites for the overlay
09:51<Pikka>oh well, I'll fix it later (tm).
09:54<drac_boy>if theres only one thing I hate about the formula.. its when I don't have any clue what the cylinder strokes are supposed to be
09:54<drac_boy>ah well always can fudge things a bit and retest locomotives balancing ingame
09:55*drac_boy gives peter1138 some coarse stones to use as the base of the ballast?
09:55<drac_boy>:)
10:11<drac_boy>hmm looks like I'm missing one diesel to suggest in the revised table....guess I'll look for something later
10:16-!-bolli [bolli@87.112.151.62] has joined #openttd
10:16<bolli>hi all
10:16<bolli>qucik question, can i access somebodies company to remove cheating (as dedicated server) or do i just have to delete the company?
10:18-!-mahmoud [~KEM@ALyon-158-1-120-33.w90-29.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
10:21<@planetmaker>moin
10:24<@Alberth>change to the company
10:25<@planetmaker>as admin you can move people via rcon move <clientID> <companyID>
10:25<@planetmaker>without passwords of the company required
10:25<bolli>ok
10:25<bolli>thanks :)
10:27<andythenorth>if my python import lines go well beyond 80 char, should I break them?
10:27<andythenorth>even though they import from same module?
10:28<@planetmaker>for readability: yes
10:28<andythenorth>can't bloody read them :p
10:29-!-fonsinchen [~fonsinche@dslb-178-000-005-077.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #openttd
10:29<drac_boy>heh
10:29*drac_boy wonders why andythenorth is causing so much stir :P
10:29<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r24100 /trunk/ (4 files in 3 dirs): -Fix: also provide translated comments in the desktop file without language name postfix
10:29<@Alberth>andy always speaks a lot
10:30<@planetmaker>:-D
10:30<drac_boy>Alberth yeah seem like it
10:30<@planetmaker>drac_boy: he talks a lot but also produces a lot. That both usually draws attention. Combined even more
10:30<drac_boy>heh you do have a point
10:31*drac_boy would have to see what others will think of my pre-release screenshot later on tho
10:32<andythenorth>some people talk little and produce a lot
10:32*andythenorth uses irc like pair coding :P
10:33<drac_boy>:p
10:35<drac_boy>hmm what would you had called a particular locomotive that had forward seatings with panorma-like viewing while the engineer/driver sat to the side (or in some cases like JR they sit on a roof dome)
10:36<drac_boy>I'm not sure "observation loco" really works heh
10:37<bolli>Viseo Loco? :p
10:37<drac_boy>hm, don't know? :)
10:39-!-fonsinchen [~fonsinche@dslb-178-000-005-077.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
10:39<drac_boy>thanks for trying still bolli :)
10:39<bolli>another question... is it possible to disable a newGRF mid game any more?
10:39<drac_boy>I'll just leave the loco name to be filled in later
10:40<bolli>somebody has reported an issue with one that i want to disable, without resetting the game
10:41<drac_boy>no idea sorry bolli
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10:42<@planetmaker>newgrf config is fixed at game start
10:42<bolli>ok :(
10:44<drac_boy>btw I was just thinking about that dicussion yesterday and wanted to ask another thing...
10:44<@planetmaker>disabling newgrfs mid-game most likely will lead to a broken savegame of sorts, like invalid vehicles, industries, houses, cargos or similar
10:45<drac_boy>I know that right now you can flip single locomotive and last wagon around to simulate push-pull trains but the question i got is...
10:45<drac_boy>could it also work on trains with seperate loco at both ends or not so much?
10:45<@planetmaker>you can only do that, if the engine allows it
10:45-!-Djohaal [~Djohaal@189.114.232.185.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has joined #openttd
10:45<@planetmaker>for double-headed it's done automatically, though
10:46<@planetmaker>for others the engine must allow flipping explicitly.
10:46<drac_boy>planetmaker not so automatically if its two different types
10:46<@planetmaker>Defaults do. Most newgrfs don't (yet)
10:46<@planetmaker>yes, not automatically
10:46<drac_boy>the question tho was..could it be done or not plausible?
10:47<@planetmaker>imho should not be done automatically. And can only be done, if the newgrf allows
10:47<drac_boy>so I guess it can be done then, is that what you're saying? :)
10:48<@planetmaker>ctrl+click will flip it. If the engine allows flipping
10:48<@planetmaker>in the depot
10:49<@planetmaker>probably a hidden feature :-)
10:49<@planetmaker>and as said: most newgrfs don't support it yet
10:50<drac_boy>planetmaker maybe I should be a bit more clear...its for eg this kind of consist where powerloco-coach-coach-powercabend ... could it keep running cab-forward only if asked to?
10:50*planetmaker wonders whether Pikka set the flag in NARS2 and UKRS2 where appropriate :-)
10:51<@planetmaker>depends on how it's coded
10:51<@planetmaker>default double-headed trains are fixed in this respect
10:51<@planetmaker>default single-headed trains can be turned whereever you like
10:51<@planetmaker>maybe not the first. Dunno
10:51<Pikka>I did for UKRS2, planetmaker
10:51<@planetmaker>:-)
10:52<Pikka>it didn't exist before NARS2
10:52<@planetmaker>ah, right
10:52<Pikka>also, "where appropriate" is "nowhere" ;)
10:52<drac_boy>btw I do think its working in NARS although you need to be a bit careful with the wagons. nothing weirder than having eg F40PH-mail-bilevel-bilevel-bilevel then when it turns around you find it running as bilevel-mail-bilevel-bilevel-F40PH which looks weird
10:52<@planetmaker>I didn't know whether you released a new NARS since
10:52<drac_boy>I guess its just a 'technical' limitation in the game..nothing the grf can do about it :/
10:52<@planetmaker>I think you're wrong there, drac_boy
10:53<@planetmaker>but true shunting-behaviour. That's not nicely feasible. And a technical limitation
10:54<drac_boy>yeah I have to agree with you
10:55<@planetmaker>but only technical as in: OpenTTD would need to support it itself in its core game code.
10:55<@planetmaker>That's moderately easily feasible
10:55<drac_boy>if theres one other thing I liked (I can't remember if it was pikka or someone else that started this?) its animated locomotive sprites especially for steam locomotive siderods moving up and down a bit
10:55<@planetmaker>but... well
10:56<@planetmaker>yeah. That was Pikka :-)
10:56<@planetmaker>iirc. ukrs or nars
10:56<@planetmaker>or both :-P
10:56<Pikka>nars2 has animated steam engines, but other people did it first
10:56<drac_boy>not sure how hard that must had been to code but I kinda want to have the same. we'll just have to see :p
10:56<Pikka>mostly snail
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11:01<drac_boy>whoever did animated station tiles anyway? heh :-)
11:03<@planetmaker>many people
11:03<@planetmaker>(not me, though)
11:03<drac_boy>heh guess it was a team effort then?
11:04-!-andythenorth [~Andy@host86-150-61-253.range86-150.btcentralplus.com] has joined #openttd
11:06<drac_boy>wb andythenorth anything else to "break" now? :)
11:06<drac_boy>heh heh
11:07<andythenorth>is there a cleaner way to do this? I keep doing it, and it smells bad:
11:07<andythenorth>self.body_path = os.path.join(INTERMEDIATES_PATH, 'body_' + filename.split('body_')[1])
11:07<andythenorth>specifically the reconcatenation of the split item
11:10<andythenorth>I know I could arse about with splitting at the index of the substring or such
11:10<andythenorth>but that's boring and more loc
11:10<andythenorth>I could use str.partition, but I still have to rejoin :P
11:10*drac_boy leaves you with someone else as that line made absolutely zero sense to me :-s
11:12<drac_boy>hm anyone think that if you built two identical locomotives but one with diesel-hydraulic and one with diesel-electric .. would the former have had any different tractive figures?
11:12*drac_boy does not know that much about hydraulic transmissions tbh
11:13<andythenorth>the basics are that TE comes from weight
11:13<andythenorth>diesel hydraulic are often lighter (one reason why they're used)
11:13<andythenorth>no generator etc needed
11:14<andythenorth>other factors don't affect theoretical max TE, but would affect real-world performance, e.g.
11:14<andythenorth>- acceleration. Electric motors deliver high torque at start, hydraulic not (I think)
11:15<andythenorth>- max continuous power may be limited by mechanical factors (overheating etc)
11:16<andythenorth>- max torque may be limited similarly by mechanical factors, e.g. an electric motor drawing too many amps may flashover and fail
11:16<andythenorth>I wouldn't worry about it tbh, unless you have gameplay reasons to
11:18<drac_boy>heh well thats more than what I was able to think of, you're right about the absence of generators
11:18<Eddi|zuHause>germany focused on diesel-hydraulic because diesel-electric was forbidden after the war
11:19<andythenorth>really?
11:19<andythenorth>I thought it was axle-loading restrictions?
11:19*andythenorth was reading something about it recently
11:20<drac_boy>andythenorth I only recall one case where a locomotive was built as diesel-electric instead of the normal diesel-hydraulic (north africa or south europe I forgot) due to the tight curvations which would had been hard on the chassis-to-truck mechanisms I imagine
11:20<drac_boy>it was narrow gauge btw
11:22<Eddi|zuHause>africa has mostly 1067mm narrow gauge (germans call it "Kapspur")
11:22<drac_boy>eddi btw I read about it once but I guess I'm still a little naive on how you can have a low and high speed turbine in a diesel-hydraulic. all I can recall is that it used high pressue pumps that made the switchover effortless under speed
11:23<drac_boy>yeah africa was Cape Gauge, or was that australia? I'll have to check
11:23<andythenorth>hmm
11:23<andythenorth>if we had traffic lights and roadtypes
11:23<andythenorth>narrow-gauge-as-trams would be a bit more interesting
11:23<Eddi|zuHause>very possible that it was also used in australia
11:23<drac_boy>ah its a generic term, can be anyone uses it
11:24<drac_boy>wonder if theres a term for 2ft gauge too
11:24<Eddi|zuHause>how much is 2ft?
11:24<andythenorth>600mm
11:25<Eddi|zuHause>i only know 760mm is "bosnian gauge"
11:25<drac_boy>andythenorth heh I almost forgot that I guess theres always two ways to measure it... in ft/inch or in millimeters
11:25<Eddi|zuHause>a few narrow gauge railways in austria use it
11:25<drac_boy>andythenorth the only exception I know of is when it come to metre gauge .. was just a shade over 3ft3inch wasn't it?
11:26<Eddi|zuHause>in germany, 750mm and 1000mm are common
11:26<drac_boy>eddi 2ft (or 600mm if you prefer) was often for short cheap industrial railroads
11:26<drac_boy>but of course that was before the thing called "road trucks" were common :p
11:26<andythenorth>hence HEQS trams
11:26<Eddi|zuHause>drac_boy: maybe "Feldbahn" is the term you seek :)
11:27<andythenorth>much of the HEQS stuff is based on Feldbahn
11:27<drac_boy>mind you andythenorth there are a few places that still run modern 2ft rails for some reason or others :)
11:28<drac_boy>eddi how about going into the other direction... broad gauge? :)
11:28<drac_boy>afaik spain and russia are the majority but there were also other small isolated pieces in other countries too
11:29<drac_boy>well..there is technically one in germany too... a 8+ft gauge traveser .. think it was for boats but I don't remember right now
11:29<Eddi|zuHause>drac_boy: holland started with a 2000mm gauge, and baden with a 1600mm gauge
11:30<Eddi|zuHause>both were re-gauged to standard gauge after it was clear that this one "won"
11:31<frosch123>[17:24] <andythenorth> 600mm <- i thought 609.6mm
11:32<frosch123>hmm, actually no idea how precise a gauge has to be
11:33<drac_boy>eddi and of course don't forget what "Great Western Railway" was supposed to mean at first ... them and their 5ft gauge :)
11:33<frosch123>@calc 5 *
11:33<@DorpsGek>frosch123: Error: unexpected EOF while parsing (<string>, line 1)
11:33<frosch123>@calc 5 * 12 * 25.4
11:33<@DorpsGek>frosch123: 1524
11:33<drac_boy>frosch123 sometimes it does have to be precise .. I remember something about a loaned steam locomotive grinding the turnouts because it was about 9-11mm too wide. goes to show you :-s
11:34-!-Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B7363E.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
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11:35<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: wrong button
11:35<Eddi|zuHause>i didn't do anything, the connection to this network disappeared
11:35<Eddi|zuHause>everything else kept working
11:37<drac_boy>heh
11:38<+michi_cc>drac_boy: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_der_Spurweiten#Spurweiten_mit_Eigennamen
11:38-!-andythenorth [~Andy@host86-150-61-253.range86-150.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
11:42<drac_boy>and there goes andythenorth again
11:42<drac_boy>hi michi_cc once again :p
11:43<drac_boy>and bye, I'm taking a break to start lunch and do other things for the afternoon ;)
11:43-!-drac_boy [~drac_boy@modemcable085.125-161-184.mc.videotron.ca] has left #openttd [I'm done being in this room!]
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11:53<Fori>Hi there!
11:53<Fori>Anyone who's familiar with ECS?
11:54<andythenorth>try the question, see if anyone answers ;)
11:54<Fori>k
11:55<Fori>Will industries like e.g. a Farm require both of the desired goods to "level up"?
11:57<Achilleshiel>i believe, the farm will level up if the transported is high enough
11:58<Fori>k
11:59<Achilleshiel>Production change happens according on amount of cargo transported. Every year the industry summarizes the transportation level of the preceding months, scoring "-1" if less than 50% of produced cargo was transported, "+1" if more than 75% was transported and "0" for 50%-75%. Then in December it tests the result; if it is above 4 then production is increased, above 6 increases it twice, and below -4 decreases production. There is a
12:00<Achilleshiel>Fori: thats what the ECS wiki says;)
12:00<Fori>Oh, wow, thanks.
12:00<Fori>I must have been blind, sorry :X
12:01<Achilleshiel>but this production is halved when the farm does not have vehicles
12:02<Achilleshiel>and it is halved when there is less then 2 tonnes fertilizer waiting
12:02<Achilleshiel>and snow will half it or stop it also;)
12:03<Achilleshiel>i hope you are stil following:P
12:03<Fori>I am ^^
12:04<Achilleshiel>so when you have no vehicles and no fert. then your max production is 25% of the max
12:04<Fori>k
12:04<Fori>I am bringing fertilzer there.
12:05<Fori>It's enough when I transport one of the goods the farm produces for it to level up?
12:05<Achilleshiel>you mean the fertilizer from the factory?
12:07<Achilleshiel>But the farm checks only on the first of december if it will level;)
12:07<Achilleshiel>the fertilizer and cars don't have influens on your level,
12:08<Achilleshiel>that's only the transportation level;)
12:09<Achilleshiel>now i will finish my reallife math:(
12:10<Fori>Right, thanks for helping me.
12:10<Fori>Does the farm care if I only carry ONE good?
12:10<Fori>So e.g. Grain?
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12:11<Achilleshiel>i think so
12:12<Achilleshiel>but here is the wiki with all the mecanics: http://www.tt-wiki.net/wiki/ECS
12:15<Fori>Thx 4 the link :)
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12:38<andythenorth>Alberth: gestalts for trailers got insanely simple :) http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/1297/
12:39<andythenorth>you'll see I'm cheating if you look at the dependencies for that :P
12:39<andythenorth>it's the final small step in a moderately complicated pipeline
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12:56<andythenorth>Pikka: so my trucks should be about same width as your 66 http://www.railbrit.co.uk/images/5000/5340.jpg
12:57<Pikka>hmm :o
12:57<andythenorth>which appears to be 5px
12:57<Pikka>?
12:57<andythenorth>I need to lose a pixel on the / \ views
12:57<Pikka>well, it's 8 in the | views
12:58<andythenorth>same as the trucks
12:58<Pikka>true
12:58<andythenorth>how wide in the - view?
12:58<Pikka>normal I think. hard to tell width in that view. :)
12:58<andythenorth>ach why am I asking when we have EZ
12:58<Pikka>D;
12:59<andythenorth>depending on roof slope, looks like you have 4px - 5px in that view
12:59<andythenorth>EZ ftw
12:59<Pikka>andy, also: http://users.tt-forums.net/pikka/wiki/index.php?title=Sprite_sheets
13:00<andythenorth>hoo
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13:05<andythenorth>Pikka: resized \ (4th column only) http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/2783/trailer-0_2-body_tipping_4px-cc1-7_8-bulk-corn_yellow.png
13:05<Pikka>sweet :)
13:05<Pikka>although the wheels stick out a bit ;)
13:06<andythenorth>yeah they need work
13:06<andythenorth>should I lose a pixel from the — view?
13:06<Pikka>I wouldn't necessarily say so
13:08<andythenorth>if you can improve the wheels, feel free ;)
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13:26<CIA-1>OpenTTD: alberth * r24101 /trunk/src/town_cmd.cpp: -Codechange: Reverse a condition for increased readability.
13:27<CIA-1>OpenTTD: alberth * r24102 /trunk/src/town_cmd.cpp: -Codechange: Refactor tile clearability test out of the statue callback.
13:27<CIA-1>OpenTTD: alberth * r24103 /trunk/src/town_cmd.cpp: -Codechange: Handle clear tiles separately from house tiles.
13:28<Sacro>@seen Illegal
13:28<@DorpsGek>Sacro: I have not seen Illegal.
13:28<Sacro>@seen Illegal*
13:28<@DorpsGek>Sacro: Illegal_Alien was last seen in #openttd 4 weeks, 6 days, 4 hours, 25 minutes, and 0 seconds ago: * Illegal_Alien back to sleepmode
13:28<Sacro>@seen Bjarni
13:28<@DorpsGek>Sacro: Bjarni was last seen in #openttd 26 weeks, 2 days, 17 hours, 9 minutes, and 33 seconds ago: <Bjarni> heh
13:29<CIA-1>OpenTTD: alberth * r24104 /trunk/src/town_cmd.cpp: -Codechange: Output the resulting tile through the user data.
13:30<CIA-1>OpenTTD: alberth * r24105 /trunk/src/town_cmd.cpp: -Feature: Be more careful with the population of a small town while placing a statue.
13:30<andythenorth>for my next trick....compositing hand-drawn truck cabs with generated bodies
13:30*Alberth waves a magic wand
13:35<@planetmaker>:-)
13:39<@Alberth>andythenorth: it's just like math, they also get insanely simple if you abstract away enough details :)
13:40<@planetmaker>hm :-) Your commits IMHO are a nice example of the difference between "a patch" and "it's trunk", Alberth :-)
13:40<andythenorth>in my >10 year history of coding, mostly I make things worse with abstraction, not better :P
13:41<@Alberth>planetmaker: I am a bit rusty, I may be a bit over-careful :)
13:41<frosch123>but we get closer to a cake
13:41<@planetmaker>he
13:41<@planetmaker>:-)
13:43<Eddi|zuHause>we should have cake every 100 revisions :=
13:44<@Alberth>we should use a time-based scheme, instead of a commit-count based one :)
13:45<Eddi|zuHause>other matter: why can't a statue be removed? afair this was changed for the HQ, why not for statue as well?
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: translators * r24106 /trunk/src/lang/latvian.txt:
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: latvian - 13 changes by Parastais
13:45<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: we should have cake every week, then :p
13:46<@Alberth>we don't have a traveling budget :p
13:46<Eddi|zuHause>we should sell openttd for 30$ :)
13:51<andythenorth>try it
13:51<andythenorth>it's allowed
13:51<andythenorth>just set up a store and see if anyone buys
13:51<andythenorth>I make my living selling open source software, kinda
13:52<andythenorth>although if they do buy, we might need to hire a support ninja and give them a phone :P
13:52<SpComb>customization?
13:52<andythenorth>seriously, I reckon OTTD for $30 could make at least $300 / annum
13:53<@planetmaker>probably
13:54<andythenorth>SpComb: in my case, subscription-based, web-hosted, with full SLA and support
13:54-!-Endymion_Mallorn [~pplgoldbl@ool-4579e3ca.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #openttd
13:54<andythenorth>we try to avoid customisation, it's bad for the product
13:55<andythenorth>if you customise for every customer, support costs and sysops time scales linearly with number of customers, and development becomes horrible
13:55<andythenorth>ideally number of customers scales slightly geometrically compared to support + sysops costs
13:55<TinoDidriksen>Can't sell any of the original assets. Is it possible to run the game with 100% FOSS assets these days?
13:55<andythenorth>afaik
13:55<frosch123>that's possible for two years
13:56<frosch123>it's why 1.0 is called 1.0 :)
13:56<@planetmaker>:-)
13:56<TinoDidriksen>Do all those assets allow reselling?
13:56<@planetmaker>Sound does not
13:57<Endymion_Mallorn>Did I just walk in on a conversation about OpenTTD becoming a for-pay product?
13:57<@planetmaker>But the game works well without and it can be downloaded ingame
13:57<TinoDidriksen>Endymion_Mallorn, no.
13:57<@planetmaker>Endymion_Mallorn: difficult with the license chosen :-)
13:57<frosch123>planetmaker: good point, only sell the installer :p
13:58<@planetmaker>haha :-)
13:58<frosch123>Endymion_Mallorn: you can also pay in natural resources
13:58<@planetmaker>cakes
13:58<@planetmaker>or tea
13:58<TinoDidriksen>Sexual favours
13:58<@planetmaker>or cookies
13:59<Eddi|zuHause>how much does the guy selling "the ability to play transport tycoon on windows" make on ebay?
13:59<Endymion_Mallorn>More than he should be allowed.
13:59<frosch123>the guy selling a german handbook did not make so much
13:59<frosch123>maybe because he invested too much work into it?
13:59<@planetmaker>maybe
14:00<Eddi|zuHause>maybe because it's in german
14:00<Eddi|zuHause>maybe because he didn't do enough marketing
14:00<@Alberth>probably, also, it is not really findable in a book shop :)
14:01<andythenorth>just sell the support
14:01<@planetmaker>also it's meanwhile outdated
14:01<Eddi|zuHause>well, you can buy it in amazon
14:01<andythenorth>direct line to Rubidium
14:01<andythenorth>or maybe dalestan
14:01<@planetmaker>yes, dalestan - type support.
14:01<frosch123>andythenorth: fixing savegames broken by newgrf changes? no, thanks
14:01<@planetmaker>He set a precedence for his fees
14:01<@Alberth>andythenorth: the profits of sales don to cover the costs :)
14:02<@Alberth>s/don to/don't/
14:03<andythenorth>e
14:03<andythenorth>charge for enabling changing newgrf in game
14:04<andythenorth>with automatic credit card rebilling if you then report bugs
14:04-!-KritiK [~Maxim@95-26-201-64.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
14:04<@Alberth>speaking of which, what about this? http://devs.openttd.org/~alberth/warning.png
14:04-!-KritiK [~Maxim@93-80-60-28.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #openttd
14:04<@Alberth>the detection is missing currently :D
14:04<Pikka>ew
14:05<Pikka>apart from anything else, it doesn't explain why.
14:05<@Alberth>it has a tool tip :)
14:05<@Alberth>but the text needs work too, I agree
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14:09<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: i fear if you only check the local "developer" settings, then this warning will also show for ordinary people downloading scenarios online (and subsequently complaining in the forum)
14:10<@Alberth>it should really detect newgrf changes in the game, I think
14:11<andythenorth>is that currently stored?
14:11<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: yes. scenario developer creates scenario. scenario developer changes newgrfs. scenario developer uploads scenario. ordinary user downloads scenario with changed newgrfs
14:11<andythenorth>sounds trivial
14:11<andythenorth>why can scenario developer change newgrf?
14:13<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: even if they couldn't... the next higher step would be newgrf developer, which only marginally shifts the problem
14:13<andythenorth>wrt savegames?
14:16<frosch123>wow, V453000 quotes daily #400 for #coop :o
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14:16<frosch123>only saw that now :)
14:16<V453000>wha?
14:17<Eddi|zuHause>that sentence doesn't quite parse correctly
14:17<frosch123>i am regulary watching day9's shows as well, but i did not try to make a relation to ottd :)
14:17<V453000>ahh
14:17<V453000>yes I did that :)
14:17<andythenorth>Alberth: how would you format this python? http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/1298/
14:18-!-MrCruel [2e9f38da@ircip4.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd
14:18<MrCruel>0hai
14:20<@Alberth>http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/1299/ one of these two
14:20<@Alberth>hi
14:21<MrCruel>Is CLI layout string more logical than NLIMC?
14:21<@Alberth>no idea what you are asking
14:21<MrCruel>NLIMC - N and M duplicate features that titlebar itself provides
14:22<andythenorth>Alberth: thanks
14:23<MrCruel>Openbox uses a letter string to represent title bar layout. NLIMC is the default, corresponding to layout seen on Win32
14:23<@Alberth>what's Openbox?
14:23<MrCruel>oops
14:23<MrCruel>wrong tab
14:23<@Alberth>you are in #open TTD :)
14:23<MrCruel>wrong mibbit tab
14:24<@Alberth>well, welcome anyway, but sorry, no idea :)
14:24<MrCruel>Openbox is a window manager
14:25<@Alberth>ah, ok, much saner than gnome I hope
14:25<MrCruel>Gnome went insane in 11.04
14:26<@Alberth>I guess it depends on what sort of users you expect to have
14:26<MrCruel>Openbox uses letters to represent title bar parts.
14:26<MrCruel>N - icon
14:26<MrCruel>L - label
14:26<MrCruel>I - Iconify (minimize)
14:26<MrCruel>M - Maximize
14:26<MrCruel>C - Close
14:27<@Alberth>ah, ok, I never use M :)
14:27<@Alberth>but KDE doesn't allow me to remove it, at least I didn't find where yet
14:27<MrCruel>Maximize and Icon elements duplicate functions of right-clicking and double-clicking title bar
14:28<@Alberth>ok, sounds like a problem :)
14:28<MrCruel>so in Openbox (and other *box window managers) you can discard certain elements from title bar
14:29<MrCruel>so, CLI or LIC layout is saner than MSFT-standardized NLIMC.
14:30<MrCruel>furthermore, CLI is more consistent for OTTD users - in-game windows have Close on the left
14:30<Eddi|zuHause><Alberth> I guess it depends on what sort of users you expect to have <-- i think most projects have a divergence between "users you want" and "users you have" :)
14:30<Eddi|zuHause>(the newgrf changing is one instance where this divergence shows)
14:31<MrCruel>Users Ubuntu "has" are laptop buyers and enthusiasts. Users they "want" are disgruntled MAC fanboys.
14:31<MrCruel>that simple
14:33<Eddi|zuHause>recently KDE is decreasing in usability
14:33<MrCruel>VISTAfied much?
14:33<@Alberth>I thought they were aiming at the mobile pads market
14:33<Eddi|zuHause>ever more "features" that totally destroy every day tasks
14:33<MrCruel>Well, KDE's QT _IS_ a mobile-centric widget set
14:33<MrCruel>owned by Nokia
14:34<Eddi|zuHause>that doesn't explain anything
14:34<andythenorth>hmm
14:34<andythenorth>maybe andythenorth should consider Ubuntu
14:34<andythenorth>as a disgruntled OS X user
14:35<Pikka>maybe andythenorth should consider Ubuntu what?
14:35<MrCruel>Ubuntu is lame as blue hell
14:35<Eddi|zuHause>MrCruel: one of the primary issues: https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=262674
14:35<MrCruel>and aims at disgruntled OS X users
14:35<Pikka>my father recently installed Ubuntu on something, but he's still fully gruntled with his appleproducts.
14:35<Eddi|zuHause>it's a really tiny feature... but it totally breaks my everyday habits
14:36<MrCruel>Person being OK with OSX yet using Ubuntu... guess he feels the poop missile coming from Google
14:36<MrCruel>Google buys Apple bit-by-bit
14:36<MrCruel>That may start in a year or so
14:37<Eddi|zuHause>recently Konsole had this bright idea: on drag&drop, open a popup asking what to do with the drop
14:37<SpComb>Pikka: gruntled? is that a word?
14:37<MrCruel>KDE is Krap
14:37<Eddi|zuHause>BUT: i _never ever_ want to do anything other than "insert as text". so _please_ let me choose it as default, never showing that popup
14:38*andythenorth was gruntled
14:38<MrCruel>I only tried KDE once, and that was KDEgames for Windows
14:38<Eddi|zuHause>MrCruel: everything is crap. the question is whether it is crap that you can live with
14:38<MrCruel>...
14:38<@peter1138>MrCruel, QT was around long before it hit mobiles
14:38<Pikka>SpComb: no.
14:38<blathijs>3TalTablet nodig?
14:39<MrCruel>KDE is going down
14:39<MrCruel>because of Nokia's idiocy
14:39<MrCruel>Furthermore, Nokia now works on WP7/8 products
14:39<andythenorth>is this going to be one of those 'everything gets worse' conversations?
14:39<Eddi|zuHause>MrCruel: nothing of this is nokia-related
14:39*andythenorth could participate but probably won't
14:40<andythenorth>will there be conspiracy theories?
14:40<Eddi|zuHause>QT is just a framework like any other...
14:40<Eddi|zuHause>it's what the features develped with it which counts
14:40<andythenorth>can I moan about OS X for a bit?
14:40<MrCruel>KDE is bloatware
14:40<Eddi|zuHause>yes. so what?
14:40<MrCruel>OS X is for lefties
14:41<andythenorth>many good OS are bloatware
14:41<andythenorth>big deal
14:41<frosch123>[20:37] <Eddi|zuHause> BUT: i _never ever_ want to do anything other than "insert as text". so _please_ let me choose it as default, never showing that popup <- what are the other options?
14:41<andythenorth>bloat is what happens when you start handling the complex cases
14:41<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: probably depending on what you drop
14:41<frosch123>you mean you get a popup with only one item to choose from?
14:41<MrCruel>Ubuntu is bloatwaredrag*drop a .txt/.doc
14:41<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: when dropping files, it's some weird shit about links and stuff
14:42<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: it had more options, but i can't be bothered with it now
14:42<andythenorth>smart drag? only it puts the 'smart' bit on you?
14:42<frosch123>paste filename vs. paste file content?
14:42<SpComb>upload file and paste url?
14:42<MrCruel>KDE is extremely bad. Kubuntu didn't even boot from pen drive.
14:42<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: it wasn't even that, i believe
14:42<SpComb>MrCruel: kubtunu not booting has very little to do with KDE?
14:42<MrCruel>and KDEgames are all crippled
14:42<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: only things that i could never ever imagine a use for
14:43-!-sla_ro|master [~slaco@95.76.26.172] has quit [Quit: DANGER sla.ro is OFFLINE DANGER]
14:43<SpComb>I should get more into customizing my awesome config someday
14:43<andythenorth>building BANDIT rinses my battery
14:43<SpComb>I already did some custom keybindings for switching focus between screens, though
14:43*andythenorth blames Apple
14:44<SpComb>awesome = window manager toolkit that ships with a default config \o/
14:44<SpComb>kinda
14:44<SpComb>it's also a little dead, I think
14:44<MrCruel>Best Linux distro is Puppy.
14:45<MrCruel>Ubuntu is OOPSbuntu
14:45<MrCruel>SliTaz is crippled
14:45<MrCruel>Knoppix is GLaDOS, plus won't save sessions
14:46<MrCruel>Kubuntu is bloated, to the extent of failing to live-boot
14:47<MrCruel>so Windows 8 is my #1 choice forever!
14:47<MrCruel>Puppy is my #2 choice
14:47*frosch123 gets an idea about the meaning of "mrcruel" :p
14:48*andythenorth ponders the horrible day of switching to Windows
14:48<andythenorth>there's a huge irony
14:49<andythenorth>10 years ago, Mac communities were full of people worrying about having to switch to Windows
14:49<andythenorth>...because it was predicted that Apple would die
14:49<andythenorth>...or at least lose the support of peripheral makers etc
14:50<MrCruel>Apple made it due to iFail, made by chinese workers at Foxconn
14:50<andythenorth>now, the problem is that Apple are horribly successful....which may force many users off OS X
14:51<MrCruel>Apple is preparing users to switching to iPads with keyboards
14:51<MrCruel>haha
14:51<MrCruel>crApple
14:51<andythenorth>for a while they seemed to have a strategy of making (moderately expensive) boxes with commodity parts, and an open OS
14:51<andythenorth>which is great for doing actual...computing and crap
14:52<andythenorth>but staring into an iOS future leaves me nothing to get work done with
14:52<frosch123>[20:50] <andythenorth> now, the problem is that Apple are horribly successful....which may force many users off OS X <- i thought that is the "red giant" part of the supernova
14:52<andythenorth>consuming its own fuel?
14:52<Rubidium>but... Apple only makes $575 per iOS device
14:52<Rubidium>(in profit)
14:53<MrCruel>crApple
14:53<andythenorth>so you said
14:53<MrCruel>Crapintosh
14:53<MrCruel>It's for lefties, I'd never use one
14:53<andythenorth>^ he's good at this
14:53<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: how much does microsoft make per android device?
14:53<MrCruel>Android is not MSFT
14:53<MrCruel>it's G00gle
14:54<SpComb>maybe their strategy is to wait for 50% market share at a 50% profit margin, and then give out free iDevices to the remaining 50%
14:54<Eddi|zuHause>MrCruel: you don't know anything what you're talking about it seems
14:54<Rubidium>MrCruel: personal experience is that OSX is crashed less than MacOS did (for me personally)
14:54<Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: no idea, though Google makes $2
14:54<andythenorth>well it's nice he came by to entertain us
14:54<MrCruel>Android is spyware.
14:55<SpComb>Google isn't into Android for the device sales profit, innit?
14:55<frosch123>[20:53] <SpComb> maybe their strategy is to wait for 50% market share at a 50% profit margin, and then give out free iDevices to the remaining 50% <- lol
14:55<MrCruel>They make a low $ per Android initially, but quite a lot by selling your info to ad givers
14:55<MrCruel>ads are a nuisance
14:56<andythenorth>?
14:56<andythenorth>ads are service
14:56<@Alberth>move to cuba :p
14:56<Eddi|zuHause><frosch123> [20:53] <SpComb> maybe their strategy is to wait for 50% market share at a 50% profit margin, and then give out free iDevices to the remaining 50% <- lol <-- isn't that what microsoft does with windows? :(
14:56<andythenorth>the more targeted the ads the better
14:56<Eddi|zuHause>:)
14:56<MrCruel>Microsoft Windows Phone fails
14:57<Rubidium>time for the freerunner then
14:57<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: but it kinda gets mis-targetet if you bought shoes, and then only get shoe-commercials for the next two weeks
14:57-!-sla_ro|master [slaco@95.76.26.172] has joined #openttd
14:57<andythenorth>yeah
14:57<MrCruel>It's not what you "bought" but where you are and what you talk of on IM/SMS
14:57<andythenorth>we need AI :P
14:58<MrCruel>so Google needs to be destroyed, along with MSFT and crApple
14:59<@Alberth>makes no difference, you cannot undo what has been reached already
14:59<MrCruel>Crapple's marketing strategy is to zombify us
14:59<MrCruel>GOogle's one - to spy on us
15:00<MrCruel>And MSFT's - to outright scam us
15:00<MrCruel>that's how it goes. :(
15:00<Sahri>MSFT?
15:00-!-fonsinchen [~fonsinche@dslb-178-000-005-077.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #openttd
15:01<@Alberth>yes, but if you take down one, there are 10 more, so it's useless
15:01<MrCruel>Microsoft
15:01<__ln__>MrCruel: do you have anything useful to say or will you shut up now?
15:01<andythenorth>eh?
15:01<andythenorth>this is silly
15:01<Sahri>I get bored so fast of OpenTTD lately :(
15:01<andythenorth>on about 17 counts
15:01<andythenorth>Pikka: can I pay you to draw trucks?
15:01<Pikka>yes
15:02<andythenorth>how much?
15:02<Pikka>just a sec
15:02*andythenorth suspects pikka is calculating a big number
15:02<MrCruel>Microsoft must be handled to Canonical
15:02<andythenorth>he needs the time to type 0s
15:02<andythenorth>who has op?
15:02<MrCruel>Windows 8*
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15:06<Pikka>0000000000000000000000
15:09<andythenorth>lot of 0s
15:09<andythenorth>hmm
15:09*Pikka writing a bolg, hang on :P
15:09<andythenorth>I need maybe 7 or 8 trucks
15:09<andythenorth>@calc 8 * 0000000000000000000000
15:09<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: 0
15:09<andythenorth>\o/
15:09<Pikka>but for you, half off
15:10<@Alberth>and it's tax-deductable :)
15:10<andythenorth>what about inflation?
15:10<andythenorth>if it takes me 3 months to save up, does the price increase?
15:10<andythenorth>can I get credit?
15:12-!-DDR [~chatzilla@d99-199-14-2.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #openttd
15:18<Pikka>there, http://www.pikkarail.com/
15:19<andythenorth>he
15:20*andythenorth used to have a donation button on here: http://dudecorp.com/feedback
15:21<Pikka>interesting :)
15:21<andythenorth>didn't make much :(
15:21<andythenorth>no real community around it
15:21<Pikka>even when they do they tend not to :)
15:22<Pikka>well, I guess it depends on the community
15:22*andythenorth ponders
15:22<andythenorth>we could charge for newgrfs in bananas
15:22<andythenorth>biab - fooooood
15:23<Pikka>sounds like a plan!
15:23<Sacro>plans like a sound!
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15:41<andythenorth>Pikka: so 'will make newgrf for food'?
15:41-!-drac_boy [~drac_boy@modemcable085.125-161-184.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #openttd
15:41<drac_boy>hi
15:41<Pikka>well, no promises andythenorth :)
15:41<andythenorth>put a $2 per-download fee on bananas
15:41<drac_boy>heh whats the new problem now pikka? :p
15:42<andythenorth>@calc 2 * (72932 + 156610 + 249389 + 259495)
15:42<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: 1476852
15:43<andythenorth>hmm
15:43<andythenorth>that's $1.48m
15:43<andythenorth>for my grfs
15:43<drac_boy>andythenorth you trying to steal money from others? :p
15:43<andythenorth>but...we'd need to give about 30% to paypal, who would hold the money for about a year :P
15:43<andythenorth>and then Rubidium would want 50% as the store owner
15:44<andythenorth>@calc 0.2*1476852
15:44<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: 295370.4
15:44<andythenorth>I'd only get $295k dollars for my ~4 years of work :(
15:44<andythenorth>@calc 295 / 4
15:44<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: 73.75
15:44<Pikka>not as if it was full-time work though, andy
15:45<andythenorth>might still be more than I've earnt for full time work in that time :P
15:45<andythenorth>recessions hurt
15:45<andythenorth>Pikka: at AU wages, that's peanuts
15:45<drac_boy>don't mind if I think this topic is silly and go ahead with my own instead - would articulated wagons had been likely on narrow gauge or not so much? (not counting log cars as these are a bit different)
15:46<andythenorth>AU wages seem quite high
15:46<andythenorth>[andythenorth has recently started employing people in AU]
15:46<Pikka>relatively, perhaps. but cost of living is very high too.
15:46<andythenorth>also we charge more in AU :P
15:47<Pikka>@calc 2 * (85043 + 176271 + 548458 + 86062+177653+ 172319 + 155983 + 123870 + 194788 + 185400 + 197172 + 149667 + 150976 + 141219 +166071 + 175076 )
15:47<@DorpsGek>Pikka: 5772056
15:48<Pikka>there you go
15:49<andythenorth>you just made Rubidium very rich :P
15:49<andythenorth>if we didn't use paypal, then we'd spend less on fees :P
15:50*andythenorth is completely serious
15:50<Pikka>true
15:50*andythenorth thinks many players won't know how / will find it too much effort to install newgrf manually
15:51<andythenorth>dunno if they'll pay $2 though
15:51<andythenorth>maybe $0.99
15:51<andythenorth>and maybe upgrades would need to be free
15:52<drac_boy>$1? still seem high for small grfs
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15:57<drac_boy>maybe a sliding scale in tens between .10 to 1.00?
16:03<drac_boy>andythenorth so beside grf pricings what else's going on with you?
16:03<drac_boy>heh :)
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16:06<teggiiii>any recommended AI?
16:07<andythenorth>hmm BANDIT | views look a bit fat to me
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16:09<Pikka>my buses ended up 6 wide
16:09<Pikka>the later generations might be 7
16:10<andythenorth>7 is possible
16:10<Pikka>7 means there's a centre pixel, which can be nice sometimes
16:10*andythenorth likes owning a pixel generator
16:10<andythenorth>makes stuff easier :P
16:11<Pikka>easier than selecting half of a row of | sprites and shifting it over a px? :)
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16:12<andythenorth>factor in doing that for say 40 trucks
16:12<andythenorth>in 4 colour schemes :P
16:12<andythenorth>with all the load sprites
16:14<drac_boy>hey michi_cc you there? and don't give me that "no I'm not" line again :P heh
16:15<+michi_cc>I'm not the only German in the room, you know :)
16:15<Chris_Booth>not he is not pm is german
16:15<drac_boy>I know...just had to see if you would give me a silly line again or not.... :P
16:17<drac_boy>so anyway if you're not too distracted michi_cc would there be some sort of translation for boxcab? I'm thinking they maybe use a different term but its hard to tell atm
16:18<Eddi|zuHause>translations without context never work
16:18<Chris_Booth>lol
16:18<drac_boy>eddi its not just that but even german rail dictionaries don't have anything helpful on that
16:18<Chris_Booth>boxcab is the same as a caboose/breakvan?
16:19<drac_boy>Chris_Booth nope...old electric/diesel locomotives...looked like box on wheels...hence being called boxcabs
16:19<drac_boy>although sometimes they did have very short hood ends on them (DR as well)
16:20<+michi_cc>If I go by the wikipedia page on boxcab I don't think there's any special German name for thise.
16:20<+michi_cc>Probably because there ain't much that aren't boxcabs.
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16:21*drac_boy at least figured out the transmission I had been looking for for two days, 'dieselhydraulische' hopefully :)
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16:21<Chris_Booth>dieselhydraulische isn't a boxcab
16:22<drac_boy>Chris_Booth I said transmission :p
16:22<Chris_Booth>oh lol
16:22<drac_boy>I don't know if there is ever anything like diesel-mechanical or not tho but I'm going give that another day or two before I forget about it
16:22<Chris_Booth>if in doubt add an en on the end of words to make them german :P boxencaben
16:24<drac_boy>considering that even germany did have some..such as the original Kof I which more precise was diesel-gearbox as far as I recall
16:25<drac_boy>if not I'l just use something that would translate from 'diesel, direct gearbox' or I dunno yet :)
16:26<drac_boy>eddi btw you're right about no context. try translate 'ship' and you could get too many different variances
16:27<drac_boy>ship as in boat .. ship as in shipping boxes .. etc
16:28<Chris_Booth>drac_boy: Diesel-Streckenlokomotiven
16:30<Fori>Anybody have an idea why the profit of a train travelling on the same track in the same time with the same goods could drop from 30.000 to 3.000? (Havin in an ECS game)
16:30<Chris_Booth>yes
16:30<Chris_Booth>I know why
16:30<Fori>(Acceptance limits are switched off)
16:30<Fori>Tell me :)
16:30<Fori>It's happening for my friend in our MP server.
16:31<Chris_Booth>stockpiling
16:31<drac_boy>Chris_Booth ah hm thanks, fixed a few cells now
16:31<Fori>As I said, the limits for that are switched off.
16:31<Chris_Booth>check the station and some of it will be transferred into the station rather than dropped
16:31<Chris_Booth>then I am stumped Fori
16:32<Chris_Booth>drac_boy: why not use German wiki to help you?
16:32<Fori>I am German ^^
16:32<Fori>(Just a side not, dunno what you guys are talking about) ^^
16:32<Chris_Booth>you know what a Boxcab would be Fori ?
16:33<drac_boy>Chris_Booth heh I just find some things sometimes a little hard to try compare to between english and deutsch pages...even less when theres no english counterpart
16:33<Fori>Could the reason be that the station he is delivering too has a sand pit too?
16:33<Fori>Uhm, Boxcar, Crhis?
16:33<drac_boy>its not related to translation but one example is the RhB locomotives... the english one is missing most of the diesels and passenger coaches which are otherwise represented on the german one
16:34<Chris_Booth>Fori: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boxcab
16:34<Fori>That's a "Güterwaggon".
16:34<Fori>Or "Güterwagen" I'd say.
16:35<Chris_Booth>no thats a boxcar not a boxcab
16:35<drac_boy>never mind it fori :p
16:35<Fori>Mh, right... ^^
16:35<Fori>Any Idea to my concerns?
16:35<Fori>You, Drac?
16:35<drac_boy>at least the sprites view in buy list would make it obvious so I might not have to bother with trying to translate that term
16:36<drac_boy>fori...no idea sorry
16:36<Fori>k, thx, I'm gone playing again ^^
16:36<@Alberth>teggiiii: http://wiki.openttd.org/Comparison_of_AIs
16:37<drac_boy>bye and have fun fori :p
16:37<Fori>Thanks.
16:37<Fori>But the issue is quite annoying... Cause my friend keeps nagging bout it ^^
16:37<NGC3982>hihi
16:37<NGC3982>güterwagon
16:37<NGC3982>german-ish words is bliss.
16:38<drac_boy>btw does anyone think there is any point in having gas-powered locomotives running in the 1920s? (as compared to diesel)
16:38<drac_boy>just asking about it in general
16:39<NGC3982>gas-powered, as in gas-turbine-powered?
16:40<Fori>What's more important PS or kN?
16:41<Chris_Booth>Fori: really depends, kN give you acceleration, but PS gives you topspeed
16:41<Fori>Since I don't get why my trains keep getting more PS and less kN
16:41<Chris_Booth>drac_boy: the closest I could find to boxcab would be Güterzüge, which roughly translates to good locomotive
16:41<drac_boy>no just gas-fueled piston power .. like cars :)
16:41<andythenorth>ho ho
16:41<Fori>So when a train has more PS it is likely it has higher top speed?
16:41*andythenorth generating trailers in multiple lengths
16:42<drac_boy>fori well its a tricky balance between PS and kN I believe :)
16:42<Chris_Booth>yes Fori think PS for passengers kN for frieght
16:42<drac_boy>if you have eg 100PS but only 1kN the loco would barely crawl at a snail :p
16:42<Fori>Yeah.
16:42<Fori>Isnt the kN resulting from the PS in reality?
16:42<drac_boy>likewise 10PS and 200kN would be....haul a lot but .. go really low top speed
16:42<Fori>Or am I getting something wrong?
16:43<drac_boy>I dunno, its difficult for me to understand sometimes
16:43<drac_boy>andythenorth you mean like as in B-train and road train? :)
16:43<Chris_Booth>kN is tractive effort, and only apply while you are traction limited
16:43<Fori>Is there anything you'd say to have like 200kN per 1000 tonnes?
16:43<drac_boy>fori as I said, its a bit of math science...not quite my thing sorry :)
16:43<Fori>kk
16:44<drac_boy>NGC3982 so what do you think? gas-powered pistons locomotive in the 1920s or rather unlikely? :)
16:44<drac_boy>btw I did think a bit about turbine locomotives but then decided to not bother as who would ever actually think of building one for a slower narrow gauge rail?
16:45<andythenorth>tank and flat trailers in multiple lengths (7/8 and 5/8) , multiple colour schemes, with multiple different cargo sprites
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16:46*andythenorth generates andythenorth
16:46<NGC3982>drac_boy: HEHE
16:46-!-valhallasw [~valhallas@85.151.142.17] has joined #openttd
16:46<NGC3982>oops
16:46<NGC3982>drac_boy: hehe|
16:46<drac_boy>andythenorth heh have fun with that :)
16:46<NGC3982>what the
16:46<NGC3982>^*Äåö
16:46<NGC3982>there we are.
16:46<drac_boy>NGC3982 so, whats your answer then? :p
16:46<andythenorth>drac_boy: what are you actually doing?
16:46*Chris_Booth takes a dump
16:46<andythenorth>do you have a tracking table or something?
16:47<NGC3982>drac_boy: well, since i crearly dont understand the difference, i suggest not listening to me :p
16:47<drac_boy>andythenorth tracking table and various sprites atm ... might share something on the forum near middle of month or so
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16:48<andythenorth>what is it? train set I assume?
16:48<drac_boy>NGC3982 well...look at it this way... pistons is the thing that moves up and down on a shaft...delivering power on the downstroke .... turbine is that thing that looks like a large fan with shaped blades ... fuel gushes into an port into the blades :)
16:48<drac_boy>andythenorth a generic set with some other things included including some buildings/stations (well need to due to the different scale used)
16:49-!-Rhamphoryncus [~rhamph@d161-184-227-133.abhsia.telus.net] has joined #openttd
16:50<drac_boy>hi Rhamphoryncus finally :)
16:50<drac_boy>btw grab a glass of water, its a busy time in here :p heh heh
16:50<Rhamphoryncus>heh. What's up?
16:51<drac_boy>not much, still talking a bit about translations .. and andythenorth as usual is still sprouting things left and rights (now its road trucks apparently) :p
16:51<drac_boy>heh
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16:53<NGC3982>http://www.n0.se/f/f/cd676_kitler1.jpg?r=9874
16:53<drac_boy>btw Rhamphoryncus I may as well as ask you too just since....do you think that gas-powered locomotives should exist into the 1920s or not so much? :) (and I'm not talking about turbines...blame that on NGC3982 ha)
16:53<NGC3982>drac_boy: i know what a turbine is, u just didnt get that you didnt talk about gas-turbine engines :)
16:54<drac_boy>heh ok then :)
16:54<drac_boy>NGC3982 mind you you could had run turbines on bunker C oil too ;)
16:55<NGC3982>:D
16:55<drac_boy>or thats what UP used to do till ever-rising prices finally made it hard to justify the limited turbine locomotives against the diesel fleets
16:55<drac_boy>the funny thing is...one of the unoffical nickname for the UP turbines was "big blow" since that was pretty much what they did :p
16:55<Rhamphoryncus>drac_boy: I have no idea :)
16:56<drac_boy>NGC3982 the main reason UP had no problem running a few different turbine locomotives was to do with their remote flatland routes .. perfect place for nonstop hot freights hauled by turbines
16:56<NGC3982>ah, i see
16:58<drac_boy>NGC3982 mind you the same routes was also where UP ran 10-coupled steam locomotives, most other roads had to stay with 4-8-4 as the best loco possible till simple articulated came
16:59<drac_boy>NGC3982 btw there were a few individual coal turbines in usa but all of them always had a short life from the one same problem basically...
16:59<drac_boy>coal dust + blades = chewn up over time
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17:00<NGC3982>oh
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17:02*drac_boy throws some extra trailer dualie tires at andythenorth
17:02<drac_boy>:)
17:03<drac_boy>btw NGC3982 while looking up example steam locomotives I came across one site with a few photos and quick description of a few unusual german steam locomotives...one of them I would had not thought of trying..
17:04<drac_boy>it was a normal 4-6-0 (or as far as the look goes) but with additional pipes draped across boiler and extra large pipe between cab and tender... for it was housing a seperate small turbine drive on the tender itself
17:05<drac_boy>have to imagine they must had thought they could try get the fuel economy of normal pistons at low speeds or around stations but use the turbine at nonstop high speed
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17:07<drac_boy>you want a photo of it NGC3982
17:08<andythenorth>Pikka: dan's cabover truck looks better 1px smaller
17:08<andythenorth>was a bit fat before
17:09<Rubidium>drac_boy: that's a nice spiral, though I already have NGC1300 as background which I think is even prettier
17:10<drac_boy>heh whats a ngc1300? 0_o
17:10<Eddi|zuHause>it's a star formation, obviously...
17:10-!-sla_ro|master [slaco@95.76.26.172] has joined #openttd
17:10<Eddi|zuHause>http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/NGC_1300
17:11<drac_boy>oh heh
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17:12<NGC3982>drac_boy: yes, syre
17:12<NGC3982>sure*
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17:13<NGC3982>Eddi|zuHause, Rubidium: drac_boy was hilightning me, not asking if we wanted a photo on the stellar object.
17:13<NGC3982>and NGC3982 > NGC1300.
17:13<NGC3982>;)
17:13<Rubidium>I missed a word
17:14<drac_boy>http://www.worldrailfans.info/Articles/Europe/GermanSteamImages/Experimental/38-3255.jpg think its probably really a 4'C'2'B'4 but hard to tell, need more details I guess
17:14<NGC3982>although, 1300 is about 2Mp closer to earth.
17:14<drac_boy>the rear siderods are the turbine drive fyi
17:14<Eddi|zuHause>drac_boy: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dampfturbinenlokomotive
17:14<NGC3982>drac_boy: that's neat.
17:15<drac_boy>eddi I know but that probably does not cover dual pistons+turbine locomotives tho
17:15<drac_boy>and for the record the S2 was a good idea but it had two bad limitiations including no lowspeed turbines :)
17:15<Eddi|zuHause>drac_boy: 38 3255 is in that lost
17:15<Eddi|zuHause>*list
17:17<drac_boy>NGC3982 I don't know how many people did it but you can fire a steam locomotive on coke apparently
17:18<drac_boy>theres always something unusual to find about steam locomotives, just have to look for a while :P
17:18<NGC3982>drac_boy: :O
17:18<andythenorth>bed
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17:19<drac_boy>NGC3982 mind you some of these sugarcane steamers could be fired on waste canes first then when that runs out they switch to the pile of firewood left near back of the tender :)
17:19<Eddi|zuHause>steam engines exist in all kinds of burning material varants... from wood to oil
17:19<@Terkhen>good night
17:19<drac_boy>I guess the waste cane was a 'free' fuel after all
17:20<drac_boy>causes quite a lot of sparks as you can imagine tho. and yes many of these little locos had big diamond smokestacks
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17:21<Fori>When replacing trains and turning "coach removal" on is there an option to make the trains stay the same length when replacing trains and the trains are smaller than the one replaced?
17:21<drac_boy>heres one photo just to give you some ideas NGC3982 http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2441/4022100634_c883567f76_b.jpg
17:22<drac_boy>and yes that is one BIG diamond stack :)
17:22<drac_boy>fori I think autoreplace never ever worked well for anything with different lengths but I may be wrong tho
17:23<Fori>It worked fine for me ^^
17:23<Fori>Just as we speak
17:23<Rhamphoryncus>Autoreplace from short -> long works if you turn on car removal
17:23<Eddi|zuHause>Fori: you cannot add wagons during autoreplace
17:24<Fori>k, thx Eddi.
17:24<Eddi|zuHause>Fori: there's a very early development version of a "template based train replacement", which may do what you want
17:24<Eddi|zuHause>details in the forum
17:24<Fori>Can you hand me a link?
17:25<Eddi|zuHause>no
17:25*drac_boy goes back to doing a bit more work again
17:25<Fori>k
17:25*drac_boy deletes the one gas loco row too
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17:26<drac_boy>oh, yeah there is one thing I need to look up a translation for unless someone wants to beat me to it...
17:27<drac_boy>what do you call a electro-diesel (or electric-diesel) in deutsch? :)
17:27*drac_boy would had tried the RhB loco I knew except that the page isn't in both languages
17:30<Eddi|zuHause><drac_boy> I don't know if there is ever anything like diesel-mechanical or not tho but I'm going give that another day or two before I forget about it <-- diesel-mechanic is mainly used in cars and lorries, where the forces aren't as high as in trains. but some railcars used diesel-mechanic transmission
17:31<Eddi|zuHause>there existed a few tries with diesel-pneumatic transmission, but i don't think those were huge successes :)
17:31<Eddi|zuHause>drac_boy: you mean an electric engine that may also be powered by diesel?
17:31<drac_boy>eddi yeah, could operate as either electric or diesel-electric
17:33<Eddi|zuHause>i'd call it a "Diesel E-Lok", but i don't know if that is an official name :)
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17:37<Fori>drac? I think we solved it.
17:38<drac_boy>eddi btw I think I'm going with '4 Achsen Tender' unless theres an alternative wording for trucks/bogies rather than fixed axles :)
17:38<drac_boy>fori heh ok, now go back and keep playing silly :P
17:38<Fori>Why? ^^
17:38<drac_boy>fori...just because you are? :P
17:38<Fori>Huh?
17:38<Fori>:(
17:38<drac_boy>fori...you telling me you're not playing anymore now? :)
17:39<Fori>Wasnt it you I talked about the train's revenue changing?
17:40<drac_boy>fori no..more about stockpiling issues
17:40<Fori>Yeah. That's the point.
17:41<Fori>I turned the stockpiles off but when you have more than 65.000.000 Liters of Oil waiting at a refinery
17:41<Fori>it starts giving low cash.
17:42<Fori>I dunno if that's intended or buggy.
17:42<Eddi|zuHause>drac_boy: a "truck"/"bogie" is mostly covered by "Drehgestell", but that's usually redundant in wagon descriptions. nobody builds fixed 4-axle wagons :p
17:43<drac_boy>that was what I had thought too :p
17:43<drac_boy>I'll be honest, I sometimes hate the issues caused by more than one english language tho heh
17:44<drac_boy>petrol .. gasoline .. gas ... WHATEVER!!! they're the same thing goddamn it :)
17:44<drac_boy>heh heh
17:46<Rhamphoryncus>Fori: I've had maxed out stockpiles and didn't notice anything different
17:46<Rhamphoryncus>And I don't think it could anyway
17:47*drac_boy rolls a viehwaggon eddi's way and wonders if I'll get anything live when it comes back :)
17:47<drac_boy>heh
17:47<@Alberth>good night all
17:47<drac_boy>bye alberth
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18:01<Fori>Rhampho?
18:01<Rhamphoryncus>yo?
18:01<Fori>When my Oil rifereny has 65 mil litres of oil waiting
18:01<Fori>It won't pay good cash anymore.
18:01<Fori>I think it's the hard coded maximum of what's accepted.
18:02<Fori>It's excactly 65.535.000 Litres
18:02<Fori>Anything that come sover that amout is simply not payed.
18:02<Rhamphoryncus>not afaik. Yes, that's a limit on storage, but acceptance should happen regardless. The rest just evaporates
18:03<Fori>Yeah, acceptance happens but the earning decrease from 800k a train to 80k a train.
18:03<Rhamphoryncus>hrm
18:04<Fori>We tested it with a glass works and a refinery.
18:04<Fori>For the glass works it was like 65.353 tonnes of sand waiting.
18:04<Eddi|zuHause>drac_boy: Viehwaggons haven't been used for many years now
18:04<Rhamphoryncus>Well, ECS is designed for very strict production amounts. Even if this didn't happen it still didn't scale up production to match the stored amount
18:05<Fori>Yeah, but I think cutting the profit isnt as designed when turning off the max storage acceptance, or?
18:05<Rhamphoryncus>dunno
18:06<Rhamphoryncus>My suggestion is to not turn off max storage acceptance :)
18:06<Fori>At least we identified the issue now
18:06<Fori>Well.
18:06<Fori>We could do that, true ^^
18:06<Fori>But every ttd game gets "apocalyptic" once in a while.
18:06<Fori>Sooner or later.
18:08<Rhamphoryncus>hmm?
18:09<Rhamphoryncus>I've got to go. I'll be back in 4 or 8 hours or something :)
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18:09<Fori>kk, cya.
18:09<drac_boy>eddi yeah I know but I'm starting in 1920 so :)
18:10<drac_boy>have a cattle>food circle to transport
18:10<Fori>When can I rename a city?
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18:13<drac_boy>B'n2 Schlepptenderlok - Lokalbahnlokomotive, 2 Achsen Tender - Jahr 1920 - 40km/h Fahrt ... that should be an interesting one to try run :)
18:15<Eddi|zuHause>B' doesn't make sense
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18:19<drac_boy>its actually a B but unless I'm reading it wrong they often have a ' between that and the h/n letter
18:20*drac_boy might still have a thing or two to learn ... especially as one of the locomotive still doesn't have any axle labels yet
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18:34<drac_boy>anyway, supper so be back in a bit :)
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18:51<drac_boy>back now
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18:54<drac_boy>eddi btw its the only one non-superheated steam I have but then its size and price makes the reason for that a bit obvious :)
19:00<Achilleshiel>Fori: still there?
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19:00<Fori>Yeah.
19:05<Fori>What's the matter Achilleshiel?
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19:16<drac_boy>btw if anyone want an interesting line of rail job then try this photo http://polishrail.wordpress.com/2009/05/10/a-staffordshire-might-have-been/
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19:28<Wolf01>'night all
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20:11<wagner>what ip your server?
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20:14*drac_boy wonders what that was
20:16<jmlane>Hello. Quick signals noob question: any way to signal a single railway to allow two-way traffic and simultaneousily use regularly spaced signals to allow more than one train going the same direction along that segment of single rail?
20:17<drac_boy>don't think you can get both at same time...you'll have to use crossover each few tiles or just go with one-way
20:19<jmlane>Thanks drac_boy. I was starting to suspect it wasn't possible. I haven't played TTD much before, so I'm exploring different rail patterns and signal combinations.
20:21<+michi_cc>jmlane: It is possible to have two trains on one line, but not more, see http://wiki.openttd.org/Advanced_path_signal_layouts#Prioritised_single_track_layout
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20:23<drac_boy>jmlane one of the problem is that real dispatchers can block the whole line for one-way working one hour then flip it other way next hour .. but the game has no idea of whatever a "dispatcher" is so all signals are more or less just dumb ones
20:23<drac_boy>except for the programmable signals to a certain degree :)
20:24<drac_boy>thats just my own thought on it tho
20:25<+michi_cc>Use timetables to simulate the dispatcher :)
20:26<drac_boy>theres that too yeah :p
20:26<jmlane>michi_cc: Thanks. That is helpful. What I want to do is not possible based on my understanding of the signals in game.
20:26*drac_boy usually has a lot of single-line and occassional one-way double tracks tho
20:27<drac_boy>so I just need a lot of half-operator/half-flagman if I was running it for real tho :p
20:27<jmlane>drac_boy: Ah, right. I was wondering if the timetable functionality would be sufficient to simulate dispatching on certain lines. I haven't tried it nor looked at that part of the manual yet.
20:28<drac_boy>they may not exactly like my one or two 'primary' freight/passenger stations I build at times tho...would be a lot of flaggings to do every single day :)
20:28*drac_boy wonders if I could hire michi_cc
20:28<drac_boy>heh heh
20:29<+michi_cc>jmlane: Yes, there's no way to have more than two trains on a section of single-track railway with signals alone. The closest approximation would be alternating single-track pieces with passing loops. Timetables would work, too, but be prepared f or a lot of pain :)
20:30<+michi_cc>drac_boy: If you pay enough
20:30<drac_boy>:)
20:31<drac_boy>michi_cc the reason that I thought most of them would be operator/flagman because at the times trains aren't working they can just deal with the freight sheets sitting by the ticket window :)
20:31<drac_boy>but who knows what kind of railroad I might had managed for real tho
20:33<drac_boy>michi_cc I don't know what any related rail regulations might had been like in other countries but in the 1940-1960s some of the short railroads in usa could be managed with no specific work positions, the few people there just simply agreed to whoever would handle whatever everyday
20:35<drac_boy>could make for interesting things when someone calls in ill...eg fireman not showing up? just tell the shop mechanic to fire the train
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20:40<jnxa>Heh. A train crashes when it actually sinks in seawater..
20:41<drac_boy>what else did you think would happen jnxa? :p
20:41<drac_boy>beside water != run
20:42<jnxa>well, that it would drown rather than crash :)
20:42<drac_boy>drown means its useless means its as good as broken for good = crash
20:42<drac_boy>:)
20:44<drac_boy>hmm that was a weird long line I typed heh
20:51*drac_boy sends jnxa down a wrong line which leads off into the other direction apparently
20:51<drac_boy>heh heh
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22:39<sortkrudt>Hi. Is there any sub-way or tunnel for boats in this game yet?
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23:35*Rhamphoryncus pokes his head back in
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23:36<Rhamphoryncus>You could have two-way on one track if you carefully prevented trains from entering it
23:36<Rhamphoryncus>which means a logic train
23:37<Rhamphoryncus>Which requires at least one extra track the whole length ;)
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23:40<Rhamphoryncus>Hrm. You could have a logic train at each end *and* one that follows each caravan through to trigger that end
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---Logclosed Mon Apr 09 00:00:53 2012