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#openttd IRC Logs for 2012-04-09

---Logopened Mon Apr 09 00:00:54 2012
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02:02<leonardo001>hola
02:02<leonardo001>hi
02:03<leonardo001>hola
02:03<leonardo001>alguien?
02:03<Rubidium>morning
02:04<leonardo001>?
02:04<leonardo001>hi! cuestion?
02:04<leonardo001>rubidium?
02:05<leonardo001>ahhh...openttd 32bpp?
02:06<Rubidium>what about it?
02:06<leonardo001>no me funcionan los .tar...
02:07<Rubidium>I have no idea what you're trying to ask
02:08<leonardo001>no working ottd 32 bpp...
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02:10<leonardo001>hi!
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02:17<@planetmaker>there's virutally no working 32bpp NewGRF
02:17<@planetmaker>yet
02:18<@planetmaker>the old tars won't work
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02:20<@planetmaker>oh, he left already
02:28<Nat_aS>wait, did somebody sugest a boat tunnel a while back?
02:28*Nat_aS is against the idea of canal bridges despite them existing in real life.
02:31<@planetmaker>canal bridges do exist in OpenTTD for 5(?) years
02:32<Nat_aS>yes
02:32<Nat_aS>and I hate them
02:33<Nat_aS>and now somebody is suggesting canal tunnels.
02:33<@planetmaker>@commit 13481
02:33<@DorpsGek>planetmaker: Commit by smatz :: r13481 trunk/src/dock_gui.cpp (2008-06-11 21:37:36 UTC)
02:33<@DorpsGek>planetmaker: -Codechange: add 'B' keyboard shortcut to build aqueduct (planetmaker)
02:33<@planetmaker>yes. It's a valid idea, though I'm not sure about that one. You don't have to use a feature if you don't like it
02:35<@planetmaker>Adding that shortcut was my first OpenTTD patch ;-)
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03:04<Rubidium>canal tunnels are a big nightmare w.r.t. sprite sizes and hiding the sprite at the right moment
03:11<Nat_aS>as they should be!
03:12<Nat_aS>heck, most ships should not even be allowed onto aquaducts
03:12<Nat_aS>and some not even in Cannals
03:14<@Alberth>not at aquaducts?
03:14<Nat_aS>because of size
03:14<Nat_aS>Canal bridges IRL are for small barges.
03:14<Nat_aS>not supertankers.
03:14<@Alberth>oh, right, as weight is not relevent :)
03:14<@planetmaker>then make use of the canal speed fraction and ocean speed fraction for ships to discourage canal travel
03:15<@Alberth>*relevant
03:15-!-andythenorth [~Andy@host-2-101-143-254.as13285.net] has joined #openttd
03:15<andythenorth>niom
03:15<@planetmaker>but you should fish some fish with andythenorth there, Nat_aS ;-)
03:15<@planetmaker>hi andythenorth
03:15<Nat_aS>hi andy
03:16<Nat_aS>I was just talking about how cannal bridges are unrealistic because the ones that exist IRL are for barges not oceangoing ships
03:16<Nat_aS>and how cannal tunnels are even more retarded
03:16*andythenorth shrug
03:16<@planetmaker>:-D
03:16<andythenorth>noticed that depots are 1tile?
03:17<andythenorth>and that it never rains?
03:17<andythenorth>reality is not our best guide
03:17<Nat_aS>they still look dumb
03:17<andythenorth>when designing, it helps to imagine reality as one n-dimensional matrix
03:17<Nat_aS>I never build cannals
03:18<@planetmaker>simply don't use it. No need to get excited that no-one should use it, really :-)
03:18<andythenorth>then apply the equivalent of transforms to that matrix
03:18<andythenorth>resulting in 'game world'
03:18<Nat_aS>if you want to connect two bodies of water, spend a ton of money and use the landscaping tool
03:18<@planetmaker>how ugly
03:18<@planetmaker>how unrealistic
03:18<andythenorth>yeah
03:18<andythenorth>because a canal isn't created by digging a channel :P
03:19<@planetmaker>actually I might even ban such person on my server on grounds of damaging the map excessively
03:19<andythenorth>why do we even have canals?
03:19<@planetmaker>or you might find the landscaping too expensive anyway ;-)
03:20<andythenorth>ach
03:20<Nat_aS>we have canals because the game does not support water on higher levels
03:20<Nat_aS>or rather it didn't untill we added rivers
03:20*andythenorth needs to go somewhere with actual...wifi signal
03:20<@planetmaker>hiding in the bomb-proof cellar? :-P
03:20<Nat_aS>but seeing as how most places you would want to send a boat are at sea level anyways, it's more realistic to just dig a ditch
03:21<Nat_aS>even if that's expensive
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03:21<Nat_aS>aren't you suposed to be rolling in money after 10 years?
03:21<Nat_aS>(YOu may however make the local authority want to kill you)
03:21<Nat_aS>also, FEEDERS
03:21<@planetmaker>Nat_aS: you are. But if terraforming one tile border costs you 50 million?
03:22<Nat_aS>why bother connecting ships to things when you can just make a ship and a truck
03:22<@planetmaker>and a single vehicle has an annual revenue of 20k?
03:22<Nat_aS>ships work best with feeders anyways because it regularizes the flow
03:22<Nat_aS>which is important when chaining industries
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03:32<@Alberth>so many andys this morning! hi hi
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04:01*andythenorth has crazy wifi
04:02*andythenorth also has crazy ideas for NewGRF / NewNewGRF
04:03<andythenorth>wrt http://bugs.openttd.org/task/4934
04:04<andythenorth>force vehicles to cache which sprites (set of sprites) they are currently use, and only allow that to changed with cbs
04:05<andythenorth>so basically instead of a graphics branch executed every tick, have a 'set graphics' cb, which has various triggers
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04:05<@Alberth>add a comment?
04:05<andythenorth>I need to kick around the idea a bit first
04:05<andythenorth>it works for all cases I can think of except:
04:05<andythenorth>- animation
04:05<andythenorth>- the new 'turn corners smoothly' behaviour
04:06*Alberth considers the latter a big hack
04:06<andythenorth>if e.g. animation is handling simply as a trigger on the 'set graphics' cb, we gain nothing, and turn newgrf world upside down pointlessly
04:07<andythenorth>as every vehicle would just end up animated, and still doing calculations on every tick :P
04:07<@planetmaker>andythenorth: might fail with sprite offsets / adv. action1
04:07<andythenorth>adv. action1?
04:08<@planetmaker>register offsets
04:08<andythenorth>hmm
04:08<@planetmaker>afaik should works for vehicles, too :-)
04:09<andythenorth>is that described here? http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/Action1
04:09<andythenorth>can't see it :)
04:10<andythenorth>hmm...animation could be handled
04:10<andythenorth>instead of caching one set of action 1 sprites, cache n
04:10<andythenorth>which are cycled through in a specific order, at a specific frame rate
04:10<andythenorth>this would make speed-dependent animation impossible though
04:11<andythenorth>hmm
04:11<andythenorth>but GetImage would then have to loop all the cached sprites to determine a sprite size for current frame?
04:12<andythenorth>maybe not, current frame would be known
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04:13*andythenorth wonders if frame rate could be changed on a per-tick basis
04:13<andythenorth>but that would then re-open the can of worms wrt checking 1 bazilion vars
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04:14<andythenorth>hmm
04:14<andythenorth>we'd know whether frame rate had changed
04:14<andythenorth>so sprite sizes could be cached
04:14<andythenorth>and cache could be invalidated if frame rate changed
04:15<andythenorth>or we could just ditch animation :P
04:16<andythenorth>if 'turn corners smoothly' is desirable, could that be provided by ottd, rather than a monster set of newgrf checks?
04:16<andythenorth>action 1 flag for 'grf provides intermediate turning sprites'
04:16<andythenorth>or something
04:17<andythenorth>basically my proposal is that graphics become more static and less dynamic
04:17<@planetmaker>maybe that's the more sound idea. Though I'd rather go for "provides N sprites per set" where N = 8*n
04:17<@planetmaker>hm... maybe not 8*n
04:18*Alberth supports the idea to define more vehicle sprites instead
04:18<andythenorth>I see no gain from current approaches to common graphics problems, e.g. 'show cargo x in vehicle z by checking vars for type of lead vehicle, age of vehicle, cargo class'
04:18<andythenorth>^ why does that need calculating on *every* tick
04:19<andythenorth>cache it when the vehicle leaves station, depot etc
04:19<@Alberth>the problem is deciding you don't need to compute it every tick
04:19*andythenorth decided that
04:19<andythenorth>:)
04:19<@planetmaker>:-)
04:19<andythenorth>you don't need to calculate capacity on every tick, so we don't
04:19<andythenorth>nor hp
04:19<andythenorth>nor weight
04:19<@planetmaker>well, really, post it in that FS entry
04:19<andythenorth>nor other intrinsic properties
04:20<@planetmaker>we don't calculate that every tick
04:20<andythenorth>I'm making the case that 'current graphics' is an intrinsic property of vehicle that only changes occasionally
04:20<@planetmaker>callbacks are called... when they're called
04:20<@planetmaker>the current spriteset. yes
04:21<@planetmaker>I'm not entirely sure how much caching is done already, though.
04:21<andythenorth>me neither :P
04:21<andythenorth>I'm guessing
04:21<andythenorth>we don't see graphic glitches with failure to invalidate caches, so either there is none, or it's very very good
04:22<andythenorth>I should write it up better, dumping in this irc log is not helpful :P
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04:27<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: the graphics must be updated (almost) every time the vehicle moves, because of things like curvature info may change
04:27<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: the graphics are thus only reasonably cached while the game is paused
04:29<Eddi|zuHause>(only the realsprite is currently cached, so it must be re-evaluated on vehicle turning anyway, even if not using callbacks)
04:32<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: wrt curvature - if this didn't do complex varaction 2 things, do you think it would be any faster?
04:32<andythenorth>or is it simply the number of vehicles and therefore checks that is significant?
04:32<Eddi|zuHause>i don't know what you mean
04:34<andythenorth>hmm
04:34<andythenorth>is the 'large number of calculations' issue caused by:
04:35<andythenorth>- 'newgrf vehicles run complex varaction 2 chains to resolve graphics'
04:35<Eddi|zuHause>alone that you call a callback is slow, what's being calculated there doesn't matter that much (vaguely paraphrasing michi_cc)
04:35<andythenorth>or by 'every vehicle must be checked'
04:35<andythenorth>reading the FS, I'm unclear
04:36<Eddi|zuHause>i'm not quite awake enough yet
04:36<andythenorth>it seems that not resolving sprites for every vehicle would be useful, but TB also implies it's mostly an issue caused by newgrf
04:37*andythenorth tea
04:38<Eddi|zuHause>sure it's "caused" by newgrf, in the sense that if you want to change it now, you have to remove some functionality
04:38<Eddi|zuHause>you can certainly design it in a way that it isn't needed
04:38<Eddi|zuHause>but that results in a different set of features, and thus breaks backwards compatibility
04:38<andythenorth>from frosch comments, it seems there could be multiple attacks on the problem
04:38<andythenorth>breaking backwards compatibility I don't care
04:39-!-Pikka [~chatzilla@d58-106-21-132.rdl801.qld.optusnet.com.au] has joined #openttd
04:39<andythenorth>lo Pikka
04:39<Pikka>lo bob
04:39<Pikka>you have trucks?
04:39<Eddi|zuHause>maybe, but other people developing grfs might
04:39<andythenorth>not so much
04:39<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: I know :)
04:40<Eddi|zuHause>the specs say all valid GRFs will keep their functionality
04:40<Pikka>trucks trucks trucks trucks trucks
04:40<Pikka>TRUCKS!
04:40<Pikka>when come back bring trucks
04:40<andythenorth>Pikka: no no no no theoretical discussions about newgrf format instead :P
04:40<Eddi|zuHause>(unless you introduce a completely new newgrf-version)
04:40<Pikka>oh
04:40<Pikka>well
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04:40<Pikka>don't break old grfs
04:40<Pikka>eod
04:40<Eddi|zuHause>see :)
04:40<andythenorth>blah
04:41<Eddi|zuHause>qed :p
04:41<andythenorth>not so simple
04:41<Pikka>why not?
04:41<andythenorth>what if a newgrf v9 or so provided authors with the option to use more efficient methods?
04:41*andythenorth thinks probably still better to fix ottd :P
04:42<Pikka>more efficient than what?
04:42<andythenorth>more efficient than running a varaction 2 chain on every vehicle every tick, whether it is anywhere near a viewport or not
04:42<andythenorth>underlying this is basically an argument for vehicle-local storage :P
04:42<Pikka>eh
04:43<Pikka>vehicle-local storage is all very well
04:43<andythenorth>maybe andythenorth should go and draw trucks
04:44<Pikka>I don't see how being anywhere near a viewport is an issue though
04:44<andythenorth>no that's completely separate issue indeed
04:44<andythenorth>http://bugs.openttd.org/task/4934
04:44<andythenorth>and I have no idea how caching is applied to varaction 2, sprite drawing etc
04:45<andythenorth>so I might be talking out of my arse anyway :P
04:45<Pikka>well
04:45<Pikka>you still have to go through the action 2 chain even if you're not drawing the vehicle, because of callbacks
04:46<andythenorth>my guess is that 'fetch value from storage' might be slightly faster than 'compute loads of stuff from vars'
04:46<Pikka>also, if my machine is processing vehicles differently from your machine because we're looking at different parts of the map, that sounds like desync central :)
04:47<andythenorth>that would be....undesirable ;)
04:47<Pikka>let's make the maximum map size 256*, problem solved ;)
04:47<andythenorth>I suggested 512*
04:48<andythenorth>but that was over-ruled :(
04:48<Pikka>that would do :)
04:48<andythenorth>I also think limit number of vehicles :P
04:48<Pikka>multithreading har har
04:48<andythenorth>my trucks are multiprocessor aware
04:48<andythenorth>and indeed much faster as a result
04:48<Pikka>sentient trucks
04:49<Pikka>we're all doomed
04:49<V453000>:D
04:49<andythenorth>http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0071717/
04:49<andythenorth>why can't we have vehicle local storage? performance reasons?
04:50<Pikka>everything's performance reasons
04:50<andythenorth>or because of property-checking loops between neighbouring vehicles?
04:50<Pikka>mostly that no-one can be bothered performing the necessary work ;)
04:50<Pikka>that sounds like fun
04:50<andythenorth>vehicle A checks storage on vehicle B
04:51<andythenorth>vehicle B then changes value
04:51<andythenorth>result: boom!
04:51<Pikka>the "no-you" condition
04:51<andythenorth>pushmepullyou
04:51<Pikka>filthy
04:51<andythenorth>consist storage?
04:52<andythenorth>probably even worse :P
04:52<Pikka>there's no such thing as a consist
04:52<Pikka>only lead vehicles
04:52<andythenorth>lead vehicle storage?
04:52<andythenorth>probably even worse
04:52<@Alberth>consists should have been invented ages ago
04:53<andythenorth>consists as templates, or consists as 'lead vehicle + trailing vehicles' ? :P
04:53<@Alberth>let's start with the latter, shall we? :)
04:53<andythenorth>storage on consist templates is an even more bonkers idea
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04:54<andythenorth>storage on consist templates could handle all this livery for groups crap and other such things
04:54<andythenorth>Alberth: why should consists be invented?
04:55<andythenorth>Pikka: trucks need better wheels
04:55<oskari89>Consists should http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=43972 help that one :)
04:55<andythenorth>and some cabs :P
04:55<Pikka>I'll draw some trucks soon (tm)
04:55<@Alberth>aaarggghhhh!! brain overloaaadd .... must .. ignore .. consists .... templa
04:55<andythenorth>Alberth: imagine the possibilities :)
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04:55<Pikka>more 19th century buildings first
04:55<Pikka>and roadtypes
04:56<Pikka>let's do roadtypes
04:56<andythenorth>let's
04:56<Pikka>how far did you get?
04:56<andythenorth>I don't want to discuss that :(
04:56<andythenorth>not far
04:56<andythenorth>also it's been suggested to wait for new map array
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04:56<@Alberth>good morning!
04:56<andythenorth>hello Alberth
04:56<andythenorth>nice to see you
04:57<Pikka>when does the map array?
04:57-!-TGYoshi [~TGYoshi@86.81.146.146] has joined #openttd
04:57<andythenorth>yes
04:57<andythenorth>my point exactly
04:57<Pikka>Alberth: new map array!
04:57<@Alberth>where?
04:57<Pikka>bugger consists, we need newroads :)
04:57<andythenorth>without the new map array (or map layers), we don't get enough roadtypes to keep Eddi|zuHause happy ;)
04:57<Pikka>where we're going we will need roads
04:57<andythenorth>my solution to combining roadtypes would be clunky tbh
04:58<Eddi|zuHause>Pikka: i remember that quote differently :;p
04:58<andythenorth>we'd need types like 'tarmac with trolleybus and tram'
04:58<@Alberth>there exist experiments with new map arrays, but I don't know their state
04:58<oskari89>Dynamic train composition could be very nice feature to have, at least i think so, there could be feeder traffic to/from larger trains :)
04:58<Pikka>andythenorth: let's not layer
04:58<Pikka>let's different roadtypes
04:59<andythenorth>crossing becomes an arse iirc
04:59<andythenorth>I did have it all solved in my head though
04:59<andythenorth>the pictures were beautiful :P
04:59<Pikka>didn't I propose allowing a seperate roadtype in each quarter of the tile? ;)
04:59<andythenorth>much was proposed :)
04:59<@Alberth>oh, nice colours you could make
05:00<andythenorth>map bits not enough we have
05:00<Pikka>nonsense, there's heaps
05:00<andythenorth>we have silly hysterical raisins to account for, like roadworks counter
05:00<andythenorth>clearly important :P
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05:01<Pikka>well roadworks counter can go away :)
05:01<andythenorth>no no, everything must be supported, for ever
05:01<andythenorth>because roadworks are so much gameplay fun :P
05:01<oskari89>:D
05:01<andythenorth>also for all the sense it makes: http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/1300/
05:01<oskari89>Railworks!
05:02<@Alberth>oskari89: we ahve the big ufo for that :)
05:02<Pikka>andythenorth: first thing we do is drop trams as a seperate layer
05:02<andythenorth>?
05:02<andythenorth>in the graphics drawing, or in the bits?
05:03<Pikka>in the bits
05:03<andythenorth>yes
05:03<andythenorth>can't see why it would be needed
05:03<andythenorth>it's just property of the type
05:04<andythenorth>does that reduce number of owner bits needed? :O
05:04<Pikka>yes
05:04<andythenorth>so I can't build my tram track along your road?
05:04<andythenorth>but I can cross it
05:04*oskari89 is fitting FIRS cargoes to Finnish Trainset wagons
05:04<andythenorth>oskari89 :)
05:04<andythenorth>oskari89: you'll be pleased when I change all FIRS cargos again then ;)
05:05<andythenorth>oh wait, I promised not to do that :P
05:05<oskari89>:P
05:05<oskari89>Please do not change ID's.
05:05<oskari89>:D
05:05<andythenorth>oskari89: if you do the support based on label you'll be fine
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05:06<andythenorth>and don't rely on classes if you want refits or graphics for specific cargos
05:06<oskari89>I'm not literally coding, just fitting them on tracking tables.
05:06<andythenorth>Pikka: so how many bits needed?
05:06<Pikka>ownership and updating is a tricky thing, yes :)
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05:10<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: your multiline-timestamps make the logs very hard to read
05:11<andythenorth>sorry, stupid paste format
05:11<Pikka>how do rail crossings decide what to use? is it highest ID? I guess we could use the same for roadtypes...
05:11<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: there's not much of use there anyway
05:13<Eddi|zuHause>Pikka: what do you mean? there's only ever one railtype on one tile, so no difficulty to choose anything
05:13<andythenorth>Pikka: didn't read the source, but seems highest ID wins
05:13<Pikka>yes eddi, but if you build one line across another
05:13<Pikka>say, 3rd rail across normal rail
05:13<Pikka>the intersection becomes 3rd rail regardless of which was built first
05:14<oskari89>Well, Finnish Railset has 8 types of level crossing overlays..
05:14<Eddi|zuHause>i believe it's the compatibility/powered half-order deciding this
05:14<Pikka>hmm, interesting
05:14<Eddi|zuHause>if A is compatible and powered on B, then B wins
05:14<Pikka>if I build a "dual power" track across a 3rd rail track, the crossing ends up 3rd rail only ;)
05:14<Eddi|zuHause>if not, then conversion fails
05:15<Pikka>anyway, we could do something similar for roadtypes, have some way of working out connections
05:15<andythenorth>peter1138 worked all this out once
05:15<Pikka>like in the given example of a dirt road and a highway, the highway should win based on some criteria
05:15<Eddi|zuHause>highways shouldn't allow crossing :)
05:15<Pikka>well
05:15<Pikka>a dirt road and a tarmac road then :P
05:15<Eddi|zuHause>(needs special onramp/offramp objects)
05:16<oskari89>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XBL13JzREz4
05:16<oskari89>What about sweden, it has level crossing on highways ^^
05:18<andythenorth>Pikka: I had a thing about type 1 and type 2 in layer order
05:18<Eddi|zuHause>http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/1301/ <-- as far as i can see, this is the code that determins which railtype "wins"
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05:18<andythenorth>and some types would always try to be drawn higher, others lower
05:18<Pikka>yeah, but I think we should drop type 1 and type 2
05:19<andythenorth>k
05:19<oskari89>Do diagonal roads along with roadtypes :)
05:19<Wolf01>hello
05:19<Pikka>it just needs more thinking about ownership when it comes to overbuilding
05:19<andythenorth>roadtype property for 'prefers to be higher' ?
05:20*andythenorth can't see any way for ottd to determine which should be drawn higher without author setting a prop
05:20<andythenorth>e.g. use compatibility or such
05:20<Pikka>yes, we could have an ordering property
05:21<Eddi|zuHause>that would mean that all types are known by the GRF
05:21<oskari89>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=58049&p=988747 <- Would appreciate that :)
05:21<Pikka>with some recommended values so roadtypes can work together, not that I imagine having more than one roadtype grf loaded at once is a good idea
05:21<andythenorth>ach
05:21<Eddi|zuHause>"not good idea" != "won't happen"
05:21<Pikka>I know eddi
05:21<andythenorth>so let's overlook that for now :P
05:21<Pikka>but it should still work across grfs :)
05:21<andythenorth>it is what it is
05:22<Eddi|zuHause>Pikka: relying on that will almost certainly bite you in the maintainability/extensibility ass
05:22<Pikka>I'm not relying on it eddi
05:22<Pikka>I'm saying that it should be fine either way
05:23<andythenorth>just set two bits 'prefers high', 'prefers low'
05:23<Pikka>no
05:23<Eddi|zuHause>Pikka: i think the railtype compatibility check has some problems when the vehicles are powered on both railtypes
05:23<Eddi|zuHause>Pikka: then the new one seems to win
05:23<Pikka>andy, what is "high" and "low"?
05:24<Eddi|zuHause>Pikka: it doesn't search for a "lowest common multiple"
05:24<Pikka>fair enough eddi
05:24<andythenorth>'prefers to be drawn above other types' 'prefers to be drawn below other types'
05:24<andythenorth>makes no reference to what they other type(s) are
05:24<Pikka>nothing's being drawn above or below anything
05:24<Pikka>there's one roadtype per type
05:24<Pikka>er
05:24<Pikka>per tile
05:25<andythenorth>how are crossings handled?
05:25<Pikka>one roadtype "wins" at crossings
05:25<Pikka>ie, the one with the highest value in the prop :)
05:26<Pikka>this property, I suppose, could also be used for overbuilding other people's roads
05:26<Pikka>you can overbuild only with a roadtype with a higher value than the existing one
05:26<Eddi|zuHause>Pikka: in your case, it checks whether all vehicles for "universal" are powered on "3rd rail" [true], and all vehicles for "3rd rail" are powered on "universal" [true], but it ignores the fact that "electric" are not compatible anymore (that is too far removed for the check)
05:26<Pikka>and the ownership does not change...
05:26<Pikka>I see eddi
05:27<Eddi|zuHause>it may be solvable
05:28<andythenorth>Pikka: let's try some cases
05:28<Rubidium>and what if the new road has a significantly higher maintenance cost? Should the original owner pay for that?
05:28<andythenorth>you have vanilla tarmac road, overbuildable by anything
05:28<andythenorth>I build a farm track across it
05:29<andythenorth>what happens wrt overbuilding being allowed, graphics, vehicle compatibility etc?
05:29<Eddi|zuHause>Pikka: need owner for each road bit :)
05:29<Pikka>no
05:29<Pikka>presumably, tarmac road will have a higher rating than farm track, so where they cross the junction will be tarmac road
05:30<andythenorth>and when I'm building, can I just extend-drag my farm track across your road?
05:30<Pikka>yes
05:30<andythenorth>or do I have to switch type for the junction tile?
05:30<Pikka>you should be able to drag across it, and it will automatically build the junction
05:30<Pikka>with tarmac road
05:30<andythenorth>and I get charged the cost of tarmac? or farm track?
05:31<Pikka>tarmac I guess. that's a minor issue though.
05:31<Pikka>Rubidium: yes, the original owner pays the increased maintanance cost
05:31<andythenorth>and if my vehicle is 10mph on farm track, but 50mph on tarmac, does it accelerate on this tile?
05:31<Pikka>yes
05:31<Pikka>because it's tarmac
05:32<andythenorth>so if there is a grid of roads e.g. | | | | | |
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05:32<andythenorth>I could build a cheap farm track and get better performance at your cost?
05:32<andythenorth>in fact, possibly griefing you in MP with extra costs
05:32*andythenorth doesn't think this is automatically bad
05:33<Pikka>there's no extra cost in this case, I already have the tarmac road tiles
05:33<Pikka>you building farm track across it doesn't give me more tarmac tiles
05:33<andythenorth>k so the extra couple of bits make no difference
05:33*andythenorth is sold so far
05:33<Pikka>yes, it's griefable. but multiplayer is already griefable
05:33<andythenorth>+1
05:33<Pikka>especially when it comes to roads
05:34<andythenorth>and non-griefing games might be very dull
05:34<andythenorth>life is griefable :P
05:34<Pikka>for example, if you build a road connecting to my road, I can already remove the junction where they connect
05:34<andythenorth>+1
05:34<andythenorth>roadworks are built-in griefing? :P
05:34<oskari89>I think if crossing type is user-defined, that would be nice.
05:34<andythenorth>? no :P
05:34<Pikka>if I have a network of dirt roads and you go and upgrade them all to super-duper highways and blow my costs out of the water
05:35<Pikka>the solution is to not play with you any more :)
05:35<andythenorth>+1
05:35<andythenorth>the solution is to always make sure you're the server admin :P
05:35<andythenorth>praps that's why there appears to be more servers than players
05:35<andythenorth>k
05:35<andythenorth>so you've solved it?
05:36<andythenorth>can I build tram tracks along your superhighway?
05:36<Pikka>probably not
05:36<Pikka>highways tend not to have tram tracks
05:36<andythenorth>so 'tram' is a type property, not a bit
05:36<Pikka>yes
05:36<Pikka>you can build tarmac+tram along my tarmac
05:36<andythenorth>which means 'pipeline' could be a type property? :| :P
05:37<andythenorth>also 'underground metro'
05:37<Pikka>I guess so, but no. :P
05:38<andythenorth>the build menu is going to be sucky
05:38<andythenorth>but it's identical to railtypes
05:38<Pikka>I guess one shortcoming is that if you're building tram tracks on my roads and you make a mistake, you have to ask me to remove it...
05:38<andythenorth>ho
05:38<andythenorth>interesting case
05:39<andythenorth>store a transaction history per tile, allow rollback
05:40<andythenorth>praps not
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05:40<Pikka>nah
05:40<andythenorth>how do I do elevated trams?
05:40<Pikka>hopefully you don't
05:40<andythenorth>+1
05:41<andythenorth>they drive through bridges
05:41<andythenorth>I looked into it :P
05:41<Eddi|zuHause>subway/high rail may be better implemented with custom bridges
05:41<Pikka>roadtypes isn't going to allow proper elevated metros and pipelines any more than railtypes has allowed proper underground subways
05:42<andythenorth>'proper'
05:42<andythenorth>ho
05:42*andythenorth was planning improper ;)
05:42<Pikka>well
05:42<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: + lots to that
05:42<Pikka>you can improper all you like
05:42<Pikka>but it's still going to be, basically, vehicles driving along a road
05:42<Pikka>or a canal ;)
05:42<Pikka>berb dinner
05:43<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: subway by: (1) cut channel fill with rail (2) build bridge for road over top (3) hope town fills in slopes with buildings
05:43<andythenorth>stations are sucky though
05:43<andythenorth>there's a station set somewhere with buildings above the station
05:43<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: but you cannot build the road bridge along the rail/tram
05:44<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: only across
05:44<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: you can if the rail turns out before the bridge ends
05:44<andythenorth>can't you?
05:44*andythenorth tests
05:44<Eddi|zuHause>and even if you could build it across, the town won't build houses next to the road
05:44<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: well, yes, but the turn takes so much space that it's useless
05:46<andythenorth>and you can't create road junctions
05:47<andythenorth>that's the real killer
05:47*andythenorth just tried :P
05:47<Eddi|zuHause>hm... we don't have transitivity on the powered relation
05:47<Eddi|zuHause>that makes a lcm difficult
05:51<frosch123>awesome, fs#5143 was broken between ottd 0.3 and ottd 0.4
05:51<@Alberth>:)
05:51<Pikka>shameful
05:51<Eddi|zuHause>so much for people playing toyland :p
05:51<@Alberth>So I played all those toyland games with the wrong graphics :p
05:52<frosch123>that likely means that the fix will break ogfx
05:52<frosch123>(i only played toyland with ogfx)
05:52<V453000>toyland with ttd graphics is for real me
05:52<V453000>men
05:52<Eddi|zuHause>i don't see the difference
05:53<Pikka>the "glass" bottoms on the towers, presumably
05:53<frosch123>yup
05:53<Eddi|zuHause>aha...
05:54<V453000>isnt that bad :)
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06:00<Eddi|zuHause>hm, so can we _make_ the powered relation transitive? (if A is powered on B, and B is powered on C, then A is also powered on C)
06:01<Eddi|zuHause>hm, no, that breaks the universal rail case even more
06:03<andythenorth>what is the universal rail case?
06:06*Pikka creates "Some Other Road Types Definition" page on pikkawiki
06:07-!-drac_boy [~drac_boy@modemcable085.125-161-184.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #openttd
06:07<drac_boy>hi
06:07-!-Fori [4e33b2b6@ircip4.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd
06:07<Fori>Morning
06:07-!-Chris_Booth [~chatzilla@host86-158-199-160.range86-158.btcentralplus.com] has joined #openttd
06:07<drac_boy>hi fori :) how're you?
06:07<Fori>I'm fine thanks ^^
06:07*andythenorth creates 3/8 long truck body plan
06:08<Fori>How's your translation going on? ^^
06:08<Fori>Cast your vote ECS or FIRS?
06:08<drac_boy>fori hmm...theres a few words I could use alternative suggestions on otherwise its going along ok...some new data too
06:08<andythenorth>+0
06:09<Fori>I dunno which one to use.
06:09<Pikka>silly andythenorth, 3/8 isn't "long" ;)
06:09<Eddi|zuHause>3/8 is currently the shortest i allow in my scheme :)
06:09<andythenorth>indeed not
06:09<andythenorth>it's teeny tiny
06:09<drac_boy>fori hmm well I would have to say firs ... ecs has a few weird things (not counting the difficult steel mill)
06:09<Eddi|zuHause>16/8 the longest
06:09<Fori>Wow... Am I just in one chatroom with the creators of FIRS and Aviators Aircraft?
06:10<frosch123>tron broke it in a _huge_ coding style commit
06:10<frosch123>@commit 3181
06:10<@DorpsGek>frosch123: Commit by tron :: r3181 /trunk (63 files in 5 dirs) (2005-11-14 19:48:04 UTC)
06:10<@DorpsGek>frosch123: -Bracing
06:10<@DorpsGek>frosch123: -Indentation
06:10<@DorpsGek>frosch123: -Whitespace
06:10<Pikka>seems possible, Fori
06:10<@DorpsGek>frosch123: -DeMorgan's Law
06:10<andythenorth>Fori: imagine
06:10<@DorpsGek>frosch123: (...)
06:10<Fori>Wow.
06:10<Fori>^^
06:10<Fori>Just take a THANKS of mine for your work :)
06:10<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: so much for non-logic-changing commits :)
06:10<andythenorth>Fori: :)
06:11<Fori>Thanks drac, I'll try out FIRS then.
06:11<Fori>Which trainsets do you use drac? Or anyone? 2cc has simply too many...^^
06:12<drac_boy>any of you think that for a generic set I should consider adding some kind of commuter-related wagon or two? lets say the newest passenger wagon seats 60 then I probably could make something that'll 'seats' I dunno maybe 110 and come with a lower top speed as a result?
06:13*drac_boy agrees that 2cc is a bit too unwieldy especially with many too-alike trains
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06:13<Pikka>I use UKRS2, Fori :)
06:14<Pikka>but I would
06:14<Fori>It doesnt work with OpenTTD 1.1.5
06:14<Fori>At least NewGRF manager says that.
06:15<Pikka>no, it doesn't
06:15<Pikka>but there's no reason not to update to 1.2.0RC4
06:15*andythenorth would use eels
06:15<andythenorth>but nobody coded them :(
06:15<drac_boy>whats eels?
06:15<Pikka>didn't they?
06:15<Fori>There is an eels addon andy ^^
06:15<Fori>Okay Pikka! :)
06:15<Pikka>I checked someone's savegame for them the other day and they were using eels.
06:15<Fori>Doing that right now.
06:16<drac_boy>fori I guess this is to our own but I don't like ukrs or ukrs2 too much game-wise
06:16<drac_boy>but the list of locomotives given (from pikkawiki) is nice on other hand
06:17<Pikka>it doesn't have enough 120-passenger coaches for some people :)
06:17<drac_boy>pikka heh it wasn't that :)
06:17<Fori>Can you recommend another then, drac?
06:17<andythenorth>well bother me
06:17<andythenorth>there is an eels grf
06:17<Fori>As we said ^^
06:18<drac_boy>pikka you want know why or not that bothered?
06:18<Fori>Pikka? Is aviators balanced for 1/4?
06:18<andythenorth>I suspect it's not FIRS compatible :O
06:18<CIA-1>OpenTTD: frosch * r24107 /trunk/src/industry_cmd.cpp: -Fix [FS#5143] (r3181): Glass-sprite of bubble-generator was not drawn anymore for completely constructed tiles.
06:18<Rubidium>frosch123: yeah, that's tron's style
06:18<Pikka>sure drac_boy
06:18<drac_boy>fori hm well do you want to actually know what I like? :)
06:18<Fori>Yeah.
06:18<Rubidium>also committing such stuff at moments you can't really use it
06:18<Pikka>Fori; the running costs will be reduced at 1/4, but it's still not really recommended. There are plenty of aircraft in av8 which travel at less than 200mph, and they're very slow at 1/4. :)
06:19<Rubidium>out of the blue after someone else's patchset was reviewed, but before everything was committed
06:19<andythenorth>there is a cargo graphic for eels too :)
06:19<Fori>So what would you say? Which setting it's best balanced for?
06:19<Rubidium>ofcourse breaking the patch set
06:19<drac_boy>pikka its the train capacity in relation to length.. I'm just the kind to run short or medium train once in a while and ukrs just never works well because it seem to have to be long semi-frequent trains on the contrast which kinda throws the mostly-single rail routes off balance
06:19<Pikka>1/1 Fori
06:19<Fori>Really?
06:19<Fori>Alright.
06:20<Fori>Do you like the Word airliners set? Since it's like the heir of your set, isnt it?
06:20<Pikka>capacity/length in UKRS2 is fairly similar to the vanilla vehicles, drac_boy
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06:21<Fori>Misclicked...^^
06:21<drac_boy>fori for temperate it would be dbsetxl+germanrv+newships ... or japset+newrv+newships ... arctic is a bit of indecision yet but its arcticset(different from dbsetxl)+germanrv+newships or oldcanset+3.5lv+newships
06:22<Fori>Btw I responded to your whisper.
06:22<Fori>Thanks.
06:22<Fori>Are those compatible with FIRS /EC?
06:22<Fori>ESC.
06:22<Fori>...
06:23<drac_boy>pikka yeah well I have a 96 tonnes coal mine and a long spinely (spelling?) route to the powerstation which I usually only have two trains each made up of one branch locomotive and just 3-5 wagons
06:23<drac_boy>with ukrs it has to become a mildly heavy train with 8+ tiles long platforms so, I guess to our own gameplay styles and habits :)
06:24<drac_boy>fori dbsetxl has a newcargo patch grf so it should work I recall
06:24<drac_boy>and canset/japset already supports it I think
06:24<Fori>Are all of those available through Bananasß
06:24<drac_boy>I have no idea, I always use the real source which at least gives me the readme to reference to :P
06:24<drac_boy>sorry ;)
06:24<Fori>k
06:25<Fori>It's just that it's more complicated to deliver it to friends ^^
06:25<drac_boy>well fori I think its easier especially with the extra files given but to our own
06:25<drac_boy>I'm not planning to allow banana uploading for a while but I'm not too certain yet, we'll just have to see in a few months
06:26<Fori>Oh, wait, which is your set?
06:26<andythenorth>hmm
06:26<andythenorth>small truck body
06:26<andythenorth>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/2787/trailer-0_2-body_tipping_4px-light_grey-3_8-bulk-corn_yellow.png
06:27<Eddi|zuHause>hm... the closest i got to a solution: currently, you check "powered(A,B) or powered(B,A)". this should be extended to "powered(*,A) subset powered(*,B)"
06:27<drac_boy>andythenorth if thats meant to be a light 2-axle truck I don't see anything wrong with the sprites :)
06:28<andythenorth>most trucks are only about 5/8 long
06:28<drac_boy>just insert some more length in the middle to get a 3-axle truck version
06:28<Eddi|zuHause>(in case both powered(A,B) and powered(B,A))
06:28<drac_boy>and maybe just a little bit longer again to make it a trailer instead
06:28<andythenorth>that is the 3-axle version ;)
06:28<drac_boy>andythenorth umm its a bit too short then :)
06:28<andythenorth>not really
06:28<drac_boy>that amount of grain looks too easy on 2 axles even for wooden bridges
06:28<andythenorth>trucks are small
06:29<drac_boy>hmm might be better if I saw it with the body drawn with it then perhaps?
06:31<drac_boy>but andythenorth the only one minor complain I could suggest would be to have a thin tarp covering the load in the bottommost sprites row. unless they don't always do that over there?
06:33<Fori>1.2.0 supports different newGRF folders in Data, does it?
06:33<andythenorth>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/2788/truck.png
06:33<drac_boy>fori its always had, the only difference is setting it in the newgrf options before starting a new map :)
06:34<Fori>Ah... Cool.
06:34<Fori>To be honest I've been putting em in content download all the time...
06:34<drac_boy>andythenorth hmm now that I see the cab I wonder if you drew the boxes a little too high height-wise? I dunno what kind of sizing you want tho so I'll leave that to you
06:34<Fori>But nvm me plz :D
06:35<Pikka>hmm andy
06:35<andythenorth>I'll teach the pixel generator to draw 3px high bodies :)
06:35<Pikka>I'm not sure it needs two rear axles either :)
06:35<drac_boy>andythenorth this being from someone who always see dump body being almost same height as a daycab (or non-sleeper) cab roof
06:35<Fori>Can I turn off that last two zoom steps?
06:35<drac_boy>pikka heh I had thought it should had been 2-axle for the small box size. go figure :)
06:37*andythenorth shrug
06:37<andythenorth>wheels are too big
06:37<andythenorth>if we're sizing relative to UKRS :P
06:38<andythenorth>wheels should be 1px, not 3px :P
06:39<drac_boy>btw pikka I found something yesterday, uk had a 2ft5inch gauge railway that actually had a few transporters. probably was the only one of its kind in uk I imagine
06:39<Pikka>:)
06:39<Pikka>well, it's all the look, accurate scaling is not required
06:41<andythenorth>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/2789/truck_smaller.png
06:41*andythenorth is unconvinced by smaller wheels
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06:41<Pikka>yup
06:41<andythenorth>that's a small day cab, not a sleeper btw
06:41<andythenorth>so the cab should look relatively small
06:41<Pikka>I think the horizontal views need a hub and a tyre
06:41<Pikka>the diagonal views can be all tyre
06:43<andythenorth>+1
06:44<drac_boy>hm I keep thinking about this for the second day now, what does anyone think of enabling transporters ingame? it could trade off the slower top speed for higher capacity compared to native wagons
06:44<andythenorth>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/2790/truck_4_axle.png
06:45<Pikka>octopods
06:45<andythenorth>drac_boy: real transporters?
06:45<Pikka>I'ma draw some of them :)
06:45<andythenorth>drac_boy vehicles in vehicles?
06:45<TinoDidriksen>Star Trek transporters.
06:45*andythenorth generates tank body
06:45<drac_boy>andythenorth actually http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transporter_wagon
06:46<Pikka>pew pew
06:46<andythenorth>I know what you mean ;)
06:46<andythenorth>I just wonder how you would implement them
06:46<drac_boy>well just draw it as always having the wagon on top all the times :)
06:47<andythenorth>'real' transporters is same problem class as vehicle ferries etc
06:47<drac_boy>and imagine that the standard gauge railroad (that is if you don't have any in first place) is 'just a few kilometers off the map'
06:49<drac_boy>andythenorth at least boats exist as foot ferries so I don't care too much for them :)
06:49<oskari89>CSDSet had 40 px long wagons, are they hard to code?
06:50<oskari89>Would allow much more detail: http://www.tt-forums.net/download/file.php?id=110908
06:54<andythenorth> http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/2791/truck_4_axle_tank.png
06:55<Pikka>very shiny :)
06:56<andythenorth>I might teach pixa to composite the truck and the body
06:56<V453000>looks cute andy
06:56<andythenorth>then [pikka] can redraw the trucks later :P
06:57<andythenorth>for [reasons] all truck cabs are multiples of 4px
06:57<andythenorth>:)
06:59<V453000>:D
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07:03<Pikka>hmm
07:03<Pikka>the tram u-turns
07:03<Pikka>let's get rid of them :D
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07:04<andythenorth>they are a gameplay PITA
07:04<Pikka>yes
07:04<Pikka>and "unrealistic"
07:04<andythenorth>also...sometimes a tram seems to turn on a non-U anyway?
07:05<Pikka>and getting rid of them makes the spec easier ;)
07:05*drac_boy prefers trams to rvs
07:05<andythenorth>the behaviour seems non-deterministic although it must be :P
07:05<andythenorth>also...in towns....finding a tile for the u-turn often isn't that easy
07:06<andythenorth>so the space gain is...not much
07:06*andythenorth waits for eddi's "state machine" auto-responder to kick in ;)
07:10<andythenorth>Pikka: got wiki yet?
07:10<Pikka>nearly
07:10*andythenorth browses
07:10*andythenorth suspects Pikka actually wants roadtypes for nefarious space-based reasons
07:11<Pikka>ew
07:11<drac_boy>heh
07:13<Eddi|zuHause>trams need proper multi-tile turning loops!!
07:13<drac_boy>I don't think so
07:13<Pikka>well
07:13<Pikka>you can build those
07:13<Eddi|zuHause>and there are trams that don't need u-turns
07:13<Pikka>:)
07:13<Pikka>yes
07:13<drac_boy>the problem is the scale.. eg one tile should be at least 3-4 lanes wide and have more sidewalk
07:13<Pikka>but the closest you can get to that now is to build a depot and have it drive in and out :)
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07:13<drac_boy>but as the limit is...you only get 2 lanes with just a bit of sidewalk but not much
07:14<Eddi|zuHause>simcity-style avenues (with and without tram in the middle)
07:15<andythenorth>allow roadtypes to specify paths for vehicles?
07:15<andythenorth>sounds like newports :P
07:15<V453000>the scale realism is probably the most ridiculous of all discussions :D
07:15<Eddi|zuHause>yes, it does :)
07:15<Eddi|zuHause>V453000: where did you read "scale" here?
07:16<drac_boy>V453000 heh its why I'm doing everything in a bit different scale (which also means new buildings to match the vehicles too..meh) for my set
07:16<V453000>with the tran tracks
07:16<V453000>m
07:16<andythenorth>drac_boy: are you doing On30 or something?
07:17<drac_boy>andythenorth I dunno, I mean it could be just about anything from 1:1 to 1:400 in the game :p
07:17<drac_boy>heh
07:18<drac_boy>although I guess that if you wanted to duplicate my set onto an actual model layout I would think your most inexpensive option could be HOm
07:19<Pikka>http://users.tt-forums.net/pikka/wiki/index.php?title=Some_Other_Road_Types_Definition andythenorth
07:19<Pikka>simple, it's mostly railtypes :)
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07:23<andythenorth>should we make a reference grf?
07:23<Pikka>almost certainly
07:23*andythenorth looks at the new props
07:23<Eddi|zuHause>Pikka: how does your roadtype flags mix with newgrf road stations?
07:24<drac_boy>hmm this reminds me of something else..
07:24<andythenorth>hmm
07:24<Pikka>oh
07:24<andythenorth>one roadtype simplifies catenary drawing too
07:24<Pikka>I forgot to put the road stations in. :)
07:24<drac_boy>if your trains need specific track type would it be better to bundle it within the same grf or not so much?
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07:26<Fori>Some dev of WAS in here ? ^^
07:28<andythenorth>hmm
07:28*andythenorth ponders animated catenary for roadtypes
07:28<andythenorth>[ropeways] :P
07:28<andythenorth>anyway....
07:28*Fori is looking for some good airliners set because high doesn't like the two futuristic planes of Pikka....
07:29<andythenorth>so HEQS bulldozer might prefer to avoid roads with a minimum speed limits :P
07:29<V453000>ropeways with monkeys!
07:29<Pikka>yes. no bulldozers on the highway
07:29<Pikka>unless it's the only way
07:29<Pikka>it will just add a big number to the pathfinder penalty perhaps.
07:29<drac_boy>andythenorth take programmable rail signals and redraw them as 'obvious' road signposts instead .... and there, problem solved :)
07:29<andythenorth>min. speed limit is better for gameplay than highly restricted compatibility
07:29<drac_boy>I would had program it as "speed under 40 no go"
07:30<Pikka>yep
07:30<andythenorth>if compatibility is too limited, crossings are a nightmare
07:30<Pikka>build a bridge and get over it, I say
07:30<Pikka>there, added loading bays to the action 3
07:30<Fori>Will openTTD update newGRFs when a new release is on bananas?
07:31<oskari89>Nope.
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07:35<drac_boy>so track into grf or not?
07:37<Pikka>hmm, actually
07:37<Fori>Andy?
07:37<Pikka>no, never mind :)
07:40<Pikka>so what do you think andy, eddi, what's missing? :)
07:41<Eddi|zuHause>Pikka: needs some thinking...
07:43<Eddi|zuHause>Pikka: certainly the tractive effort multiplier should be different for trams and roadvehicles
07:43<Pikka>hmm
07:44<Pikka>I wouldn't have thought tramtracks + a roadtype with significantly off TE would be likely?
07:44<Pikka>also, trams are roadvehicles. ;)
07:44*drac_boy treats it as rails :)
07:46<Eddi|zuHause>Pikka: anyway, the most obvious critique point of one-roadtype-per-tile is crossings. how do you want to represent a tram-with-road crossing a normal road, without drawing excessive tram bits?
07:46<Pikka>in the same we we represent an electrified railway crossing a non-electrified railway without drawing excessive electrification bits
07:46<Pikka>not at all :)
07:46<Eddi|zuHause>Pikka: that's a big hack
07:47<Eddi|zuHause>i know. i wrote it...
07:47<drac_boy>eddi and what if it came to three? I mean a road-shared tramrail crossing standard rails :p
07:47<Pikka>well, I was thinking more 3rd rail
07:47<Pikka>where we don't even try
07:47<Eddi|zuHause>yes
07:47<Eddi|zuHause>because it was implemented before railtypes
07:48<Pikka>yes
07:48<drac_boy>pikka actually if you need a 3rd rail road crossing, just ask japan. they do have at least two existances of that
07:48<drac_boy>bit complex thing...the third rail basically fold out of way unenergized then the gates opens to let cars through
07:48<Pikka>but if we'd waited until it was resolved before implementing railtypes, we wouldn't have railtypes
07:48<drac_boy>but at least for the game you don't have to draw that animation
07:48<Fori>Is it designed that if I enable the HEQS I still have a lot of vanilla vehicles?
07:49*drac_boy runs a 300 tonnes tram at 49km/h into fori?
07:49<drac_boy>heh heh
07:49<Eddi|zuHause>Pikka: the only way i can see one-roadtype-per-tile working is with multi-layer tiles like michi_cc's patch. but then you're back to the layering troubles again
07:50<drac_boy>eddi the only one thing I currently hate about one-railtype-per-tile in infra sharing atm is....when you have little space to work with and the neighbouring diagonal track is of a different type from yours :-s oh well no simple solution for that one I guess
07:50<Pikka>performance issues are too much if we query the roadtype on neighbouring tiles?
07:51<Eddi|zuHause>Pikka: same discussion as with railtypes
07:51<Eddi|zuHause>Pikka: i think it's not, but your decision space may explode
07:51<Fori>drac :(
07:51<drac_boy>at least I never cared for it in my usual singleplay games (which is the patch instead heh) because I know its always only one rail instead of having to share a second one with someone else :)
07:53<Eddi|zuHause>Pikka: but imho the 3rd rail should be part of the trackbase, not the track. which may make the decision chain more difficult
07:54<drac_boy>eddi don't ask about LUL trains..you'll be talking about a 4th rail :p
07:54<drac_boy>heh
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07:58<Pikka>hmm
07:58<Pikka>I'll have a go
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07:59<andythenorth>just draw excessive tram tracks :P
08:00<andythenorth>sure, it will look ugly
08:00<andythenorth>[shrug]
08:00<drac_boy>heh
08:01<Pikka>yes
08:01<andythenorth>but it solves 2 problems
08:01<andythenorth>(1) no worries about layering
08:01<andythenorth>(2) it makes roadtypes possible, instead of a theoretical discussion waiting for n other things
08:02<andythenorth>"we are not Steve Jobs"
08:02<Pikka>yes
08:04<andythenorth>if we get multi-layer tiles, use those bits to cache what's on neighbouring tiles, then write varaction 2 for drawing xyz
08:04<andythenorth>that's 'enhancement'
08:04<Pikka>multi-layer tiles are for sissies
08:04<andythenorth>tile-based storage :P
08:05<andythenorth>everything would be better if it had storage
08:05<andythenorth>hmm
08:05<andythenorth>what does that roadworks counter bit do?
08:09*andythenorth wonders if we can do something ugly, like set 'neighbouring tile has compatible type' in spare bits
08:09<Pikka>nope
08:09<Pikka>gotta test for the whole roadtype D;
08:09<andythenorth>if there's only one type per tile, do we have a surfeit of bits?
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08:11*andythenorth wonders if we can test for the whole roadtype
08:11<andythenorth>cache it
08:12<andythenorth>invalidate neighbouring tiles' caches when changing the roadtype on a tile
08:12<Pikka>when do you update the cache?
08:12<Pikka>yes
08:12<Pikka>that would probably be the way to go
08:12<andythenorth>it will have some odd cases I think
08:12*andythenorth shrug
08:14<andythenorth>hmmm...the alternative of letting newgrf author control what is drawn by querying neighbouring tiles is mildly terrifying
08:14<andythenorth>for several reasons
08:14<Pikka>is it?
08:14*Pikka does it now
08:15<andythenorth>do you get the type label?
08:15<andythenorth>and do you have a big tree of 'if red then blue' type stuff?
08:15<Pikka>I'm thinking IDs from a rail type table
08:15<Pikka>and yes you do
08:15<andythenorth>ugh
08:15<Pikka>it's perfectly managable.
08:16*andythenorth supposes worse things happen
08:16<andythenorth>at sea
08:16<andythenorth>for example
08:17<andythenorth>Pikka: snow?
08:17<Pikka>what about it?
08:17<andythenorth>is actually important
08:17<andythenorth>we need snow :P
08:17<Pikka>well, there's an above the snowline var...?
08:17<andythenorth>var 40
08:18<Pikka>you want a callback for TE multiplier I suppose?
08:18<andythenorth>prop 15 is a prop?
08:18<andythenorth>yes...cb
08:19<andythenorth>and a bit for 'has a snowplough been by recently' :P
08:19<andythenorth>reuse the roadworks counter for that
08:20<andythenorth>new cb
08:20<andythenorth>'vehicle is leaving tile'
08:20<andythenorth>return values: 0, 1
08:20<drac_boy>andythenorth why snowplough seriously? :p
08:20<andythenorth>sets the roadworks counter :P
08:21<andythenorth>drac_boy I have to explain? :o
08:21<andythenorth>it's not obviously just neat?
08:21<drac_boy>andythenorth explain that to someone who just wants to run one or few timber trucks to the forest in arctic map in August ;)
08:22<andythenorth>shrug
08:22<andythenorth>snow is snow
08:22<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: callbacks for roadtypes are probably crazy
08:22<andythenorth>if it's on your road, you go slower
08:22<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: of course :)
08:23<andythenorth>with a busy tile, the bits might flip on / off a lot :P
08:23<andythenorth>hmm
08:24<andythenorth>ho
08:24<drac_boy>andythenorth if you seriously want to introduce snow onto roads then at least introduce lower speed and slight higher runcost with having chains on :P
08:24<andythenorth>roadworks uses effect vehicles
08:25<drac_boy>heh
08:25*andythenorth can't figure out how the roadworks counter actually works
08:25<andythenorth>IncreaseRoadWorksCounter looks relevant
08:26<drac_boy>andythenorth I had always wondered how to enable a limited few weather effect to rails without making it too complex tho..and so far I dunno yet
08:27<drac_boy>would be interesting for certain locomotives that have very light traction axle weights .. they'll have a bit of problem with rain-heavy months
08:27<drac_boy>and thats just one of the few 'issues' a player might have seen
08:28*andythenorth might be having a significant brain failure
08:28<drac_boy>at least that uk signal sim (forgot the name, never played it much) actually has weathers factored into its timetabling
08:28<andythenorth>oh
08:28<drac_boy>eg if its raining a lot the trains would be slower to accerlate
08:28<andythenorth>there are roadworks *bits*
08:28<andythenorth>not a roadworks bit
08:28<@Alberth>big boss Mr. T.Ycoon does not care about rain
08:29<drac_boy>alberth he would when he finds out that he ordered the wrong kind of locomotives to work the line when they kept running late :)
08:29*andythenorth was a little bit 'wtf' about how 0-15 can be stored in one bit
08:29<andythenorth>but we have the whole of m4
08:29<@Alberth>drac_boy: he fires the huy doing the planning :p
08:29<@Alberth>*guy
08:29<andythenorth>surely m4 is open to creative abuse for roadtypes....
08:29<drac_boy>alberth then he's still back to square one :p
08:30<@Alberth>andythenorth: sounds like a british motorway :p
08:30*andythenorth will be on the m4 shortly
08:30*andythenorth is right next to the m4 right now
08:30<andythenorth>literally
08:30<andythenorth>and there will be roadworks
08:30<@Alberth>:)
08:30<drac_boy>alberth and to be honest many of the real europe rails are clueless these years. I mean france used to have a few working snowplow wagons and at least one rotary but in the last few years they only had one or two plows left and the rotary all scrapped. and they wonder why a lot of passenger trains were trapped stuck :)
08:32<@Alberth>oh, the problem in the canal tunnel was much more fun, did you know snow melts in a tunnel ? :D
08:32<drac_boy>even eurotunnel's quote of "unprecident weather" was quickly shot down by reasonably-thinking news sources... there really was nothing unprecident about it, the only thing unprecident was the lack of train maintenance :p
08:33<drac_boy>and its not just that but one of the thing that I've noticed a lot was that when a new electric locomotive replaces an old 1960-1980s one train reliability always seem to be worser during bad weathers even during the summer
08:33<drac_boy>the older one had more stern steel in them is one way to put it :)
08:35<CIA-1>OpenTTD: frosch * r24108 /trunk/src/ (ai/ai_core.cpp ai/ai_instance.cpp game/game_core.cpp): -Fix [FS#5142]: When starting GS or AI, always use the settings of the game, not the new-game settings.
08:35<andythenorth>so...
08:36<andythenorth>is it a bad idea to have a cb that runs every time a (lead) vehicle leaves a tile?
08:36<@peter1138>we have that
08:37<@peter1138>or maybe it's only when the railtype changes
08:37*andythenorth visits spec
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08:38<andythenorth>it's probably cb36?
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08:39<andythenorth>my idea was a cb for the tile, rather than the vehicle
08:39<andythenorth>it allows resetting of (road) m4 bits only
08:39<andythenorth>or something like that
08:42<andythenorth>abusable for whatever creative purposes authors think of, with no rules, and no attempt at labels or any other crap
08:42*andythenorth would use it for snow :P
08:43<andythenorth>it would be pretty
08:44<andythenorth>Pikka: idea...draw snow over the tram tracks. Graphics problem solved :P
08:44<Pikka>yes
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08:45<andythenorth>also
08:45<andythenorth>tram tracks are very small
08:45<andythenorth>so just don't draw them :P
08:48<Pikka>http://users.tt-forums.net/pikka/wiki/index.php?title=Talk:Some_Other_Road_Types_Definition
08:48<Pikka>there you are. too easy :)
08:52<Pikka>I've got some things the wrong way round, now I look at it
08:52<Pikka>but that's basically what it would look like. not too much trouble at all
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08:52<Pikka>and a maximum of 4 branches, so hopefully not too slow if the vars are cached.
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08:53<andythenorth>tidy
08:53<Pikka>and if people don't go mad and coat the map with tramtrack intersections :)
08:53<andythenorth>surely that's massively cache-friendly?
08:53<frosch123>cache for roadtypes? haha :p won't hapen
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08:54<frosch123>there are no caches for stuff that belongs to tiles
08:54<Pikka>okay
08:54<Pikka>but even so
08:55<frosch123>anyway, you do not need any cache for stuff that is only needed for drawing
08:55<andythenorth>also...caching is invalid if the VA 2 chain contains bonkers madness
08:55<Pikka>:)
08:55<andythenorth>like date checks
08:55<Pikka>well
08:55<andythenorth>and snow
08:55<andythenorth>did I mention snow?
08:55<Pikka>snow business like show business
08:55<andythenorth>Pikka: on a 2048x2048 map, does this kill my battery?
08:55<andythenorth>there are a lot of roadcrossings in a game....
08:56<Pikka>well
08:56<Pikka>you would only use this for tram tracks
08:56<frosch123>andythenorth: do houses kill your game?
08:56<Pikka>using it for every road crossing would be silly
08:56<frosch123>s/game/battery/
08:57<andythenorth>Pikka: 'would' <- enforced how? :)
08:58<andythenorth>what if i use it on every tile to choose to draw, for example, animated billboards 17 tiles long :P
08:58<Pikka>enforced by your common sense :)
08:58<frosch123>there are also people reaching the 64k limit for objects :p
08:58<Pikka>I may have made a terrible mistake...
08:59*andythenorth has driving to do
08:59<andythenorth>and will bbl
08:59<andythenorth>maybe with more trucks
08:59<andythenorth>or not
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08:59<Pikka>okay, seeya!
08:59*Pikka adds the proposed variables to the spec
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09:08<CIA-1>OpenTTD: michi_cc * r24109 /trunk/src/debug.cpp: -Fix (r24099): Warning from not using size_t to store the return value of strlen().
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09:49<Eddi|zuHause>"road layers" suggestion: [for several roadtypes on a tile] each roadtype consists of these layers [ground tile], road base, road surface, road overlay, pavement, catenary. of each layer, all roadtypes will be drawn in a random but deterministic order, so if it is not transparent, one roadtype will "win" across the whole map. standard road will have transparent road overlay and catenary, standard tram will have transparent road surface
09:50<Eddi|zuHause>so for order of (road,tram) the drawing order will be: ground, road base, tram base, road surface, (tram surface), (road overlay), tram overlay, (road catenary), tram catenary
09:51<Eddi|zuHause>drawing order may be defined by some priority value, or the order of action3
09:52<Eddi|zuHause>somewhere in there the pavement is missing
09:53<Eddi|zuHause>"base" and "overlay" will be composed of several sprites consisting of the center and the 4 road bits
09:53<Eddi|zuHause>center being one of "straigt", "curve"(x4), "t-cross"(x4), "cross"
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09:54<Eddi|zuHause>i meant "surface", not "base"
09:55<Eddi|zuHause>"pipelines" could then consist of "base" and "catenary" only
09:55<Pikka>mine's certainly simpler :)
09:55<Eddi|zuHause>Pikka: but i fear it's not flexible enough
09:55<Pikka>it's roadtypes
09:55<Pikka>you shouldn't be trying to make pipelines with it
09:56<Eddi|zuHause>Pikka: i don't. but it's a neat thing if it can be done
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10:00<Pikka>also, I'm still not sure "several roadtypes on a tile" makes sense.
10:00<Pikka>it still just seems like you're making a special case for trams
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10:00<Pikka>which I'm not sure is desirable from a set design or gameplay point of view, and I also think is holding back anyone getting stuck in and actually creating a patch
10:00<Pikka>simple is good :)
10:01<Eddi|zuHause>"simple" isn't good enough if you remove existing functionality in the process
10:02<Eddi|zuHause>and i also said previously: if you separate things strictly between "road"-types and "tram"-types, then you have a problem fitting in trolleybus
10:03<Eddi|zuHause>you can make trolleybus tram-like, but then you cannot combine both on a tile (which may be realistic, though)
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10:06<Pikka>how to cope with the existing trams is indeed a problem for my spec
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10:06<Pikka>hello andy
10:06<andythenorth>that was...rainy
10:06<Pikka>"how to cope with the existing trams is indeed a problem for my spec"
10:07<andythenorth>screw em
10:07<Pikka>yes
10:07<andythenorth>oh yeah, backwards compatibility :P
10:07<Eddi|zuHause>another problem with making trolleybus tram-like is enforcing a road underneath
10:08<Pikka>eddi: trolleybuses are silly vehicles which make even littler sense in TTD than they did in the real world
10:08<Pikka>also, with my spec there's no such thing as "tram-like", so I don't really understand what you're driving at
10:09-!-Progman [~progman@p57A19E44.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
10:09-!-Progman_ is now known as Progman
10:09*andythenorth -> logs :P
10:09<__ln__>well they are being used in the real world
10:09<Zuu>though you got a tram-like behaviour bit (no overtake + U-turn)
10:10<Pikka>so don't set that for trolleybuses?
10:11*andythenorth misses why trolleybus is a problem?
10:11<andythenorth>it's just a bus, with power
10:11<Pikka>so do I
10:11<Eddi|zuHause>trolleybusses can overtake, but they'll have some trouble with U-turns :)
10:11<Pikka>anyway, the existing trams are a problem
10:11<andythenorth>roadtypes can provide power right?
10:12<Pikka>yes
10:12<andythenorth>so where's the issue?
10:12<Pikka>eddi: "realism"
10:12<andythenorth>it's an electric bus
10:12<Eddi|zuHause>yes, but difference between "powered" and "compatible" is quite useless if you have no consists
10:12<Pikka>true!
10:12<andythenorth>hmm
10:12<Pikka>I guess we can lose one then. :P
10:12*andythenorth knows that Eddi|zuHause is nearly always right, but what's the issue?
10:13<Eddi|zuHause>the issues are lots and widespread :)
10:13<andythenorth>(1) specific to trolleybus
10:14<Pikka>trolleybuses can overtake but not u-turn, apparently.
10:14-!-Devroush [~dennis@83.101.84.110] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
10:14<andythenorth>as in, 'they need a specific movement path'?
10:14*NGC3982 is in the mood for openttd
10:14<Pikka>also, trains can't magically turn around in stations, and ships can't pile up on top of each other at docks. I suggest we all stop playing openttd until it can perfectly realistically model the behaviour of every vehicle which has ever existed. :)
10:15<NGC3982>it has been a few months since
10:15<andythenorth>ships can't drive through each in RL
10:15<Eddi|zuHause>Pikka: one step at a time :p
10:15<Pikka>yes
10:15<Pikka>but let's not have the first step be trolleybuses
10:16<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: you're trying to prevent future discussions along lines 'of hysterical reasons' which point to this spec, here?
10:17<Eddi|zuHause>Pikka: my aim is pointing out future use-cases, and how the spec should be generic enough to cover them
10:17<Zuu>Well, there are trolleybusses (and trams) with batteries, so assume OpenTTD trolleybusses got some small batteries that allow them to make U-turns. :-)
10:18<Zuu>Problem solved.
10:18<Pikka>okay, so provide seperate flags for "can overtake" and "can u-turn", problem sorted. we can't make it generic enough to cover /everything/
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10:18<Pikka>shall we try and incorporate vehicles which can travel cross-country?
10:18<andythenorth>yes please
10:18<andythenorth>and also amphibious
10:18<andythenorth>and flying cares
10:18<andythenorth>or even cars
10:18<Pikka>yes
10:18<andythenorth>http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-17626818
10:19*andythenorth would be happier if newgrf wasn't held sacred
10:19<Pikka>$279,000
10:19<andythenorth>i.e. rather than 'we will never break newgrf' <- which isn't true anyway
10:19<Pikka>lol
10:19<Pikka>eh
10:19<andythenorth>we say 'we might break newgrf under conditions xyz'
10:19<Pikka>it's not newgrf which is the problem this time
10:19<Pikka>it's the legacy tram system
10:20<andythenorth>and we can't lose that because....?
10:20<andythenorth>[game doesn't ship with trams anyway]
10:20<Zuu>0.6 or 0.7 did right?
10:21<Zuu>possible only 0.6 as 0.7 got bananas.
10:21<Pikka>old savegames, andy
10:22<andythenorth>they break too :P
10:22<Pikka>andy, you going to buy one of those flying cars?
10:22<andythenorth>oh definitely
10:22<andythenorth>when we introduce $2 per newgrf on bananas
10:22<Zuu>But it neegs an airport to take off?
10:23<Zuu>needs*
10:23<Pikka>$279,000... you could buy a much better plane and a much better car and still have $200,000 left :)
10:23<Zuu>So it could be a part of the vehicles containing vehicles feature.
10:23<andythenorth>eh who cares, we'll be rich on newgrf earnings
10:23<Pikka>true
10:23<andythenorth>get roadtypes in quick, we can sell the roads grf
10:23<andythenorth>also, we can charge for 'updated' grfs when trunk breaks them
10:23<Pikka>yes, but first the trams issue
10:23<andythenorth>so trunk should break them a lot
10:23<andythenorth>so the trams issue is?
10:24<andythenorth>in plain english, using small words...
10:24<Pikka>replacing the existing, own-layer hacky trams with roadtype trams
10:25<Pikka>I guess we could retain the existing trams, and have a grf function to disable them...
10:26<NGC3982>how do i get a train to wait in a depot for x days?
10:26<NGC3982>i cant seem to get it right in the timetables
10:26<Zuu>you wait x days and then click to start it :-)
10:26<Zuu>eg, not possible to do automated.
10:26<NGC3982>ah, i see.
10:26<andythenorth>the tram issue is movement paths? Or graphics? Or type compatibility? or which?
10:26<Zuu>you could have a station nearby with the only puprose of having trains staying there for x days if you want.
10:27<Zuu>there is a no load-no unload order.
10:27<Pikka>andythenorth: at the moment, there are two layers of "road", "road" and "tram"
10:28<Pikka>we/I am proposing a spec with one layer of road.
10:28<Pikka>there is no way to translate the former to the latter when loading old savegames.
10:29-!-fonsinchen [~fonsinche@dslb-178-000-005-077.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
10:29<Pikka>or at least no way that wouldn't be an inordinate amount of work :)
10:29<Pikka>for no benefit except converting old savegames
10:29<andythenorth>so those bits would just be lost
10:30<NGC3982>Zuu: i see. ill see what i can do :).
10:30<Pikka>so you load an old savegame and end up with trams just sitting in the middle of fields
10:30<Pikka>?
10:30<andythenorth>hmm
10:30-!-Devroush [~dennis@83.101.84.110] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
10:30*andythenorth has horrible idea
10:30<andythenorth>make road equivalent to tram
10:30<andythenorth>then you get a savegame where trams can go on any road :P
10:31<Pikka>although at the moment you can build tramtrack without road
10:31<andythenorth>convert that to road
10:31<NGC3982>Zuu: although, i think i will abandon the idea. http://i.imgur.com/KuPgv.png <- this is my setup. i thought id make the trains wait a bit on the return trip to the industry. though, i noticed that it might have bad implications on the industry rating.
10:31<Pikka>it could work, andy
10:31<andythenorth>Pikka: it's bonkers
10:32<Pikka>it's better than anything I've come up with so far :)
10:32<andythenorth>there is an alternative, which is to have ottd provide some types by default
10:32<Pikka>yes
10:32<andythenorth>e.g. road, tram, road+tram
10:32<andythenorth>then set all tiles appropriately when converting savegame
10:32<Pikka>this is the "inordinate amount of work" I was talking about :)
10:32<andythenorth>then look at the action 0 props for newgrf vehicles to determine compatibility :|
10:34<Pikka>well
10:34<andythenorth>or just break the badger
10:34<Pikka>"tram" is currently a flag
10:34<Pikka>there's no proper roadtype property
10:34*andythenorth wonders if there are other things it is desirable to break
10:34<NGC3982>trow your tv out the window
10:34<andythenorth>OpenTTD 2.0 could be the 'lots of things changed' edition
10:34<Pikka>so I think logically, just turning them into road vehicles and replacing all tram tracks with road would be the right thing to do :)
10:34<NGC3982>that might lead to some manly satisfaction.
10:36-!-Devroush|3 [~dennis@83.101.84.110] has joined #openttd
10:36*andythenorth thinks trading massive legacy breakage against a set of awesome features would be very worthwhile
10:36-!-Devroush2 [~dennis@83.101.84.110] has joined #openttd
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10:36<Pikka>yes
10:36<Pikka>but let's keep the breakage it to a minimum ;)
10:36<Pikka>-it
10:36*andythenorth is used to python
10:37<andythenorth>where hunting down legacy versions of python to run [some app] is common
10:37<Fori>What's openTTD coded in ?
10:37<NGC3982>cheeseburgers and mirc script.
10:37<Fori>Thanks for THAT kind response.
10:38<NGC3982>:)
10:38<Fori>I don't know why people are like that... But I think I won't understand it ever.
10:38<andythenorth>eels
10:38<andythenorth>openttd is (mostly) C++
10:38<Fori>Thanks.
10:39<andythenorth>afaik, the AI is squirrel
10:39<NGC3982>Fori: im sorry, did i offend you?
10:39<andythenorth>and there might be some actual C somewhere
10:39*andythenorth is at the limits of his knowledge describing that much :P
10:39<Fori>NGC, nah, not really. I just get fucked up if people answer to honest question like that one with so stupid things.
10:40<Fori>Happens in a lot of IRC channel when people come in they don't know.
10:40<Fori>And I simply don't get the point of it.
10:40<Fori>Anyway, thanks andy.
10:40<NGC3982>Fori: i see. it was of course none of my intentions to be such a bastard :).
10:41<Fori>It's nothing with your answer specific. It's rather a general thing.
10:41*andythenorth thinks we should also break some newgrf disabling stuff
10:41<Fori>I'd rather have you telling me "I know but you could google".
10:42<Fori>Andy? Are you using any aircraft GRF?
10:42<andythenorth>Fori: I don't really play OpenTTD
10:42<Fori>Oh, so you only code for it? ^^
10:42<Fori>Or paint sprites, or w/e? ^^
10:42<andythenorth>mostly newgrf
10:43<Fori>That's what I ment, sorry.
10:43<andythenorth>I play about once a year
10:43<andythenorth>rest of the time I make feature requests here
10:43<andythenorth>and moan
10:43<Fori>Really? Where comes the ingame feedback from then? ^^
10:43<Fori>NGC? Have you any recommendations of an aircraft GRF?
10:44<andythenorth>AV8 and GeneralAV8ion
10:45<andythenorth>otherwise PlaneSet or however it's called
10:45<Fori>Yeah, right. I've been using Pikka's aircraft since the first time I ever played openTTD
10:45<NGC3982>Fori: well, i havent really tried as many of them as one should, though - PikkaBird's 'Aviator Aircraft Set' is really well made.
10:45<andythenorth>but AV8 is better
10:45<NGC3982>(AV8 is the same grf).
10:45<Fori>It's balanced for 1/1, right?
10:47<NGC3982>hm, i wonder; im using a basic two-train circle system to get coal from a to b. as the trains move along with time, i notice that the original rating of 76% drops to 68%, without any changes in the trains movement.
10:47<NGC3982>how is that?
10:47<NGC3982>http://i.imgur.com/KuPgv.png
10:48<Fori>There's no train waiting to load? No statue?
10:49<NGC3982>no, not really, and no. no statue :).
10:49<NGC3982>does a town statue make a difference?
10:49<Fori>Yeah.
10:50<Fori>I just noticed that yesterday.
10:50<Fori>Looked it up in the game mechanics page of the Wiki
10:50<Fori>What's that timetable stuff? Where does it come from?
10:51<NGC3982>timetables can be used to make ..well, timetables for the trains. you find it in the orders windows, upper right.
10:51<NGC3982>Fori: ill read up on that statue thingy.
10:51<Fori>http://wiki.openttd.org/Game_mechanics#Station_rating
10:52<NGC3982>@A transport company may build a statue in honour of its owner. This will increase its ratings at stations in the area, and looks impressive to passers by.@
10:52<NGC3982>\o/
10:52<NGC3982>Fori: thank you.
10:52<NGC3982>i have two missions to complete, then. one is to change to faster trains, and the other to build a statue.
10:53<NGC3982>the problem is that the the adjacent town doesnt even have that opportunity yet.
10:53<andythenorth>Pikka: ship a default roadtypes grf with openttd, provides 'road, road+tram, tram'
10:54<andythenorth>extend compatibility to vehicles that don't have roadtype props set
10:54<andythenorth>based on type flag
10:54<andythenorth>convert when loading savegame
10:54<andythenorth>no backwards compatibility for the save
10:55<andythenorth>everything carries on working same as now, out of the box
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10:58<Fori>NGC: The problem should be your cash.
10:58<Fori>That the option is not there.
10:58<@Alberth>more precisely, the lack of cash :p
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10:59<NGC3982>Fori: hehe.
10:59<NGC3982>well, i cant decide what brings more money.
10:59-!-Mark [~Mark@5ED06D58.cm-7-1b.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has joined #openttd
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10:59<NGC3982>http://i.imgur.com/uwcBJ.png
10:59<NGC3982>i changed the trains and made this
11:00<NGC3982>i noted a huge improvement in train profit, but a lower rating (and a small dip in coal production).
11:01*NGC3982 adds a train
11:03<NGC3982>ah, this was a fruitful experiment
11:03<NGC3982>adding a train to the setup didnt affect the rating at all.
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11:07<Eddi|zuHause>tiny map is tiny
11:07<Eddi|zuHause>adding/removing trains by itself doesn't change rating
11:07<Eddi|zuHause>"always a train at the station" improves rating
11:07<Eddi|zuHause>and trains newer than 2 years improve rating
11:08<Eddi|zuHause>and trains faster than 80km/h improve rating
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11:09<Fori>Do you actually use that timetable stuff NGC? I never did..^^
11:10<NGC3982>barely
11:10<Fori>Btw NGC, you got some Windows updates waiting.
11:10<NGC3982>this is actually the first time i find use of it
11:10<Fori>k
11:10<NGC3982>im as far from an openttd pro as the googolplex is from infinity.
11:11<Fori>^^
11:11<Fori>I ain't pro. I don't even know if I'm good.
11:11<Fori>^^
11:12*NGC3982 surely isnt.
11:12<NGC3982>i have been playing it for years, and i still dont understand most of its functions
11:13<NGC3982>openttd is the starship enterprise of the game universe. it reveals new characters, even in the last season.
11:14<Fori>xD
11:14<Fori>Well. I'm afk for a bit playing a bit of "Agricola".
11:15<Fori>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agricola_%28board_game%29
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11:17<Zuu>NGC3982: To improve your rating at Grenfingfield Mines, remove the waiting station and have the train load longer in Grenfingfield Mines instead.
11:19<NGC3982>i see
11:19<NGC3982>ill try it.
11:19<Zuu>In general you shouldn't need to use a waiting station. It was just the answer to your question on how to make a train wait for X days at some place.
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11:23<Pikka>andy: we could do that I suppose
11:23<NGC3982>Zuu: i see.
11:23<Pikka>she's pretty big job
11:23<NGC3982>Zuu: it worked briliantly. thank you :)
11:26<andythenorth>Pikka: or just break savegames :)
11:26<andythenorth>range of options then
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11:28<Pikka>yes...
11:28<Pikka>perhaps we should try and get the spec working, then worry about this? :)
11:32<oskari89>Finnish Railset tracking tables now have FIRS cargoes :)
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11:34<NGC3982>http://i.imgur.com/gXXcG.png
11:35*NGC3982 read "finnish rallyset"
11:36<andythenorth>Pikka: patchy patchy
11:36<Pikka>yes
11:36<andythenorth>do you plan to use any kind of repo or anything?
11:36<Pikka>well
11:36<Pikka>that's more your forte
11:36<@orudge>*forté
11:37<andythenorth>there's a very old roadtypes repo on the devzone
11:37<Pikka>would we be better off starting from scratch?
11:37<andythenorth>yup
11:37<andythenorth>that one is way behind trunk
11:37<andythenorth>planetmaker: any objection if I delete current roadtypes repo? Can't imagine it's any use
11:38<Pikka>orudge: forte
11:38<andythenorth>ach
11:38<Pikka>forty
11:38<andythenorth>for reviewing and stuff we probably have to use a queue
11:38*andythenorth is not the best at this :P
11:40<andythenorth>Pikka: last time I tried this I was using mercurial with the mq extension for patch queues
11:40<andythenorth>if I'd learnt it properly it would have made my life easier
11:41<andythenorth>but at the time I might have been better just making small commits + diffing from them
11:41<@orudge>Pikka: forte knoxe
11:41<Pikka>even so, you've had a lot more experience at it than I have, andythenorth
11:41<andythenorth>doing something this big without many small patches is probably insane
11:41<andythenorth>we'll never get reviewed
11:41<Pikka>there too, orudge
11:41<Pikka>I dunno
11:42<Pikka>we'll have to use undue influence
11:42<andythenorth>anyone care to advise the foolhardy?
11:42<andythenorth>Pikka: have you got mercurial?
11:42<Pikka>what small patches can we break it into, anyway? it's an all or nothing kind of deal
11:42<Pikka>nope
11:42<andythenorth>or I could learn git, but that way dragons lie
11:43<andythenorth>Pikka: there might be some obvious steps: savegame handling, newgrf loading, drawing to screen etc
11:43-!-Digitalfox [~Digitalfo@bl21-140-236.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #openttd
11:43<andythenorth>but I'm way out of my depth, surrounded by sharks :P
11:44<andythenorth>last time I managed to move one map bit, then got stuck handling savegames
11:44<Pikka>eh
11:44<Digitalfox>Hi Guys, been a couple of years since the last time I joined here :)
11:44<Pikka>I vote for the avagoyamug approach... it worked for the original tramtracks :)
11:44<andythenorth>well at least can we use a repo? not one massive diff :P
11:45<Pikka>yes, we can
11:45<Pikka>but like I said, you know much more about that sort of thing than I do
11:45<andythenorth>install hg then :)
11:45<andythenorth>or make me learn git
11:45<andythenorth>http://mercurial.selenic.com/
11:46<Pikka>I don't know how to make you learn git, so okay
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11:47<Digitalfox>I have a silly question about Grfcodec 6.0.0, I'm doing grfcodec -d s.grf, and I'm receiving a error "expected more data during tile decoding for sprite 42", this a GRF from 2008 that I want to edit some train properties for my own game... It's still unedited so it's in it's original form... Am I doing something wrong on the options?
11:48<andythenorth>Rubidium what's a nice way to start a big patch? Checkout ottd and push it to a new repo?
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11:50<supermop>wouldn't any nice patches be small, andy?
11:51<andythenorth>not my wording :P
11:51<andythenorth>it might not be a nice patch
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11:53<Zuu>andythenorth: I would clone trunk and then have my patch as a patch queue.
11:54<Zuu>No need to commit I think
11:54<NGC3982>bah, i dont get iron ore mines
11:54<Zuu>just "hg qrefresh" to update your patches.
11:54<NGC3982>i cant seem to motivate large production
11:55<NGC3982>even with 70-72% ratings i only get like 30 tonnes a year.
11:55<Zuu>then "hp pull" and "hg update" to update to newer trunk versions. (I usually pop all patches before pulling from trunk)
11:56<andythenorth>Zuu: how do you share the patch queue?
11:56<Zuu>So far I've only published the patches as files on fs or forums.
11:57<Zuu>Not sure how one could share them as a repo.
11:57<andythenorth>might not be needed
11:57<andythenorth>but also, probably by arsing around pushing them into a different repo
11:57<andythenorth>which I don't want to do
11:57<supermop>are you taking roads by yourself?
11:57<supermop>*taking on
11:57<andythenorth>no pikka is
11:57<andythenorth>I am standing around holding tools
11:57<Pikka>D:
11:57<Zuu>if you name your patches with ".patch" in the name you give them in HG, the files in your .hg/patches folder will have propper .patch extension and you can just upload those.
11:58<andythenorth>Pikka: :)
11:59<Pikka>oh, I guess that would work for "historic" buildings...
11:59<andythenorth>my C++ is not great. How's yours?
11:59<Pikka>only let them build on january first :)
11:59<Pikka>my C++ is practically non-existant
11:59<andythenorth>april 1st
11:59<andythenorth>oh jolly good, that means we have no idea how hard this could be :)
12:00<Pikka>yup
12:00<andythenorth>knowing too much can slow you down
12:00<Pikka>we need stevenh really
12:01<Pikka>also, about 80% of what we want is railtypes, so we only need to do the other 20%. right? :)
12:01<andythenorth>right
12:02<andythenorth>a hg checkout of ottd is being very slow today
12:02<andythenorth>I want this one, right? http://hg.openttd.org/openttd/trunk.hg
12:03<Zuu>hg clone does fetch all historic changes too, not just the current state. So it is significantly slower than a svn checkout.
12:04<Zuu>But once you got one clone you can updaet it and do local clones of it to get boiler plates for new patches.
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12:07<andythenorth>Pikka: so you could do "hg clone http://hg.openttd.org/openttd/trunk.hg/ roadtypes"
12:07<andythenorth>as a starting point...
12:07<Pikka>I could, could I?
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12:07<Pikka>I guess I better install these tortoises and hgs first. actually I remember I did have this on my old machine way back when
12:07<Pikka>when we were working on something for ttdpatch...
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12:30<supermop>do you plan on changing the way one way roads form junctions?
12:30<Pikka>at the moment they don't, do they?
12:30<supermop>correct
12:31<supermop>but it would be nice to make corners with one way roads
12:31<Pikka>yes
12:31<Pikka>well, possibly then :)
12:31<supermop>currently an L requires you to switch back to regular road
12:32<supermop>even though there is no possibility for a truck to get turned around on it
12:32<supermop>also nice, would be a one way overlay on normal road
12:33<supermop>like a a one way (one track) tramway over regular two way street, the reverse of what you can do now by placing tram on one way road
12:34<supermop>one way tram would be pretty for balloon loops at end of line, but could be trouble in corners, intersection of normal street
12:35<andythenorth>tram will be removed ;)
12:35<supermop>meaning re-implimented differently by roadtype newgrf?
12:36<Pikka>that's the theory
12:36<andythenorth>Pikka: rather than removing tram U-turn, allow all vehicles to use those movement paths?
12:36<supermop>how many types will your spec allow? 16?
12:37<andythenorth>the turn-around behaviour of RVs is kind of tiresome currently
12:37<Pikka>they turn around at the end of a tile, it's not that bad?
12:37<supermop>i can see people not wanting a semi to u turn in the middle of a city street though
12:37<supermop>very tiresome when that happens irl
12:38<andythenorth>hmm
12:38<andythenorth>Pikka has a good point
12:38<andythenorth>why am I always building odd bits of tile in cities?
12:38<supermop>if you touch movement, it would be better to improve passing
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12:39<supermop>both for highways and for roadside stops
12:39<andythenorth>iirc, it's completely unrelated ;)
12:39<supermop>best not to touch it all all then i guess?
12:40<andythenorth>not as part of roadtypes indeed ;)
12:42<supermop>hmm
12:42<supermop>if a town built tramway, could a player drive trams on it?
12:43<Pikka>of course
12:43<supermop>you can drive busses on other players roads, why not their tramways?
12:43<CornishPasty>Isn't a tramway just a train track that can go over roads?
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12:43<supermop>so a road grf could allow a town to build tramway,
12:44<Pikka>yes
12:44<Zuu>CornishPasty: Depends on the detail level
12:44<Pikka>but towns full of tramways would be odd
12:44<Zuu>At some detail level you are right and on some other you are wrong.
12:44<supermop>i guess you'd end up with some stupid tracks but you could simulate a town building a tram system and contracting with a private company to operate it
12:45<supermop>in the game its more like a special road flag
12:46<Zuu>I didn't know that currently you can't run trams on opponent tramways. But if that is changed, something like wmDOT can make tram systems for you to run trams on.
12:48<supermop>if towns build tramways, there would need to be some way to keep them from simply filling every tile in the center of town with track and grand unions
12:48<Pikka>which there won't be
12:48<supermop>but a road grf could allow that at its own peril, shouldnt concern the road spec either way
12:49<andythenorth>that's what the spec says too
12:49<andythenorth>bit 7 of prop 10
12:49<supermop>same with pedestrial street
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12:50<supermop>if you want your cities to close streets to traffic there shouldnt be a problem with that, so long as you are ok with losing the ability to provide bus service down town
12:51<Pikka>yes, except that kind of behaviour is beyond the simple stuff that towns do
12:52<Pikka>if you created a "pedestrian street" it would either never use it because the rating was too low, or it would build every street with that street
12:52<supermop>hmm
12:52<Pikka>having a few downtown streets pedestrianised is well beyond the capabilities of the town "ai"
12:53<Zuu>you would need to have a squirrel script to run under the scope of a town or so.
12:53<supermop>is the a property to set what town zone it builds a type in?
12:53<Zuu>But that might give a too high performance impact.
12:53<supermop>ie fancy street in town and dirt roads way out on the edge?
12:53<Pikka>no, there is not
12:54<Pikka>but of course there is no reason your roadtype can't have fancy street in town and dirt roads way out
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12:54<supermop>as the speed limits might differ, it seems there could be functionality beyond the current plain/sidewalk/trees/lamps
12:55<Zuu>Could perhaps the town 'ai' prefer road types with a lower maximum speed? As a way to at least prevent it to upgrade the whole town to highways.
12:56<Pikka>it will prefer whatever roadtype the grf tells it to prefer
12:56<Pikka>I don't think highways are a good choice for town-built roads
12:57<Pikka>I imagine a sensible roadtype grf will have towns build macadam/cobble early on, then normal tarmac roads.
12:57<Pikka>if I ever manage to even code anything ;)
12:58<Zuu>good point :-)
12:58<Zuu>something got done is better than something better, not done.
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13:01*andythenorth ponders some horrible union of roadtypes behind the scenes
13:01<andythenorth>so that 'tarmac road' is overbuildable with 'tram' or 'catenary' or whatever
13:01<andythenorth>and then the type is actually merged
13:01<andythenorth>ugh
13:01*andythenorth does something more useful
13:03<Pikka>D;
13:04<andythenorth>globals smell
13:05*andythenorth is removing them from a web app
13:15<Pikka>smelly globules
13:15<Eddi|zuHause>you mean globuli :)
13:18<andythenorth>exactly
13:18<andythenorth>anyway it's done
13:18<andythenorth>so...
13:18<andythenorth>bath
13:18<andythenorth>then what?
13:18<andythenorth>trucks?
13:18<andythenorth>roads?
13:18<andythenorth>or more work?
13:18<Pikka>hard to tell. roads probably
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13:23<@Terkhen>hello
13:23<Eddi|zuHause>("Globuli" are the units delivering "homeopathic medicin"... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:DoseOscillococcinum.jpg)
13:26<andythenorth>hey ho Terkhen
13:26<andythenorth>^ Pikka there swaggers a worthy recruit
13:26<andythenorth>try and persuade him
13:26<andythenorth>I failed so far :P
13:27<andythenorth>he's good at patching
13:27<NGC3982>hm
13:27<NGC3982>i cant seem to replace normal railway trains to electical
13:27<NGC3982>when i choose it in the list, the list goes blank.
13:27<Pikka>yikes :)
13:28<Eddi|zuHause>NGC3982: that list shows the source engines, not the target engines
13:29<Eddi|zuHause>NGC3982: the target engines always show both types
13:29<NGC3982>http://i.imgur.com/0gHE0.png
13:29<NGC3982>note the window to the right.
13:29<Eddi|zuHause>you have no electric engines
13:30<Eddi|zuHause>this selection is "replace FROM electric engines"
13:30<Eddi|zuHause>not "replace TO electric engines"
13:30<andythenorth>Terkhen: roadtypes!
13:30<andythenorth>there's a spec and everything
13:30<teggiiii>god bridges really rape the speed of a line
13:30<andythenorth>http://users.tt-forums.net/pikka/wiki/index.php?title=Some_Other_Road_Types_Definition
13:31<@Terkhen>scary :P
13:32<andythenorth>probably much more fun than rv wagons
13:33<andythenorth>the downside of rv-wagons is that it's just not that common to have >1 trailer on a truck
13:33<andythenorth>and having to 'build truck' then 'drag trailer' then probably 'refit trailer' is no more usable than 'build truck, refit'
13:33<andythenorth>so...roadtypes!
13:36*Pikka will help!
13:37<NGC3982>Eddi|zuHause: ah, my bad. thank you!
13:42<teggiiii>dumbo-question: how can i make a coalmine produce more coal? transport it all and create a "higher demand"?
13:42<Eddi|zuHause>what google's augmented reality _actually_ would look like: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysIClyFCgzs :)
13:42<Eddi|zuHause>teggiiii: production increases over time if you provide good transport rating
13:43<teggiiii>are there any brackets saying what is "good" and "bad" transport-rating?
13:43<Eddi|zuHause>teggiiii: check your station rating. ratings <30% makes it more likely to lower production, rating >60% makes it more likely to grow
13:43<teggiiii>alright
13:43<teggiiii>cheers
13:45<teggiiii>re-designing a station and forgetting a track, creating a jam and not noticing for 10 minutes.. <3
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: translators * r24110 /trunk/src/lang/ (korean.txt latvian.txt unfinished/tamil.txt):
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: korean - 1 changes by telk5093
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: latvian - 45 changes by Parastais
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: tamil - 25 changes by aswn
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14:04<NGC3982>facebook just bought instagram
14:04<NGC3982>the price: one billion dollars.
14:05<supermop>how many miles of single track, freight suitable railway could one build through a jungle with that much money?
14:06<@Terkhen>to the moon and back?
14:07<andythenorth>supermop: in TTD?
14:07<andythenorth>most of the map
14:07<supermop>in SE Asia
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14:07<andythenorth>dunno
14:07<andythenorth>it's not that much money
14:08<andythenorth>it's probably what, $10 / user or something?
14:08<supermop>my new career plan is to be a cambodian railway baron
14:08*andythenorth can't be bothered to look up instagram user numbers
14:08<supermop>i doubt it 100 M people
14:09<andythenorth>allegedly around 25M
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14:26<andythenorth>hmm
14:26<andythenorth>just before a html <label> element:
14:26<andythenorth> <!-- insert label -->
14:26<andythenorth>really?
14:26*andythenorth must have smoked extra crack that day
14:28<Eddi|zuHause>// this is a comment
14:30<andythenorth>exactly
14:30<andythenorth><!-- this is html -->
14:31<Eddi|zuHause>/ the following line is self-documenting
14:31<Eddi|zuHause>hm, wrong button ;)
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14:57<andythenorth>where's all the chat gone :P
15:00<@Terkhen>somewhere
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15:22<drac_boy>hi
15:25<Fori>hi
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15:26<drac_boy>hi fori :p
15:26<drac_boy>anything new this time?
15:26<Fori>I think I found some nice setup...
15:27<Fori>I didnt play any game with it but kept searching for GRFs.
15:27<Fori>And now I was looking for some MP servers for 1.2.0
15:27<Fori>But there's only a few.
15:28<drac_boy>humm well I'm doing a few things atm but if you're still around for a while I could soon start a server? (although its not 1.2.0 so...)
15:29<Fori>Nah, got university in the morning so I think I won't be online too long.
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15:33<drac_boy>ok :)
15:34<Pikka>drawing hooses, andythenorth
15:35<drac_boy>hoses or houses?
15:35<supermop>new ottd feature: NewHoses
15:36<supermop>much easier to transport liquids
15:37<supermop>and HoseTypes allows you to upgrade from green garden hose to firehose as demand increases
15:37<drac_boy>are you serious supermop?
15:38<supermop>junctions are a bit tricky though: should the garden hose just lay over the firehose, or should that tile take on the larger hose diameter
15:39<drac_boy>a garden hose isn't fit for any kind of industrial-size outputs..is it?
15:39<drac_boy>or are you just talking about relative map scale?
15:39<supermop>it is quite fit for new industry: lawn sprinkler
15:39<Pikka>obviously every hose should be a separate layer
15:40<Pikka>so you can have as many hoses on each tile as you like
15:40<drac_boy>well a sprinkler has nothing to do with industry cargos :p
15:40<supermop>yes, it accepts water from the faucet industry
15:41<drac_boy>probably at a rate of barely 1 litre meanwhile its outputting more than 40,000 litres
15:42<drac_boy>that would be...several thousand hoses for one single industry
15:46<andythenorth>hose types
15:46<andythenorth>very good
15:46<supermop>OpenTTD is not to scale
15:47<andythenorth>drac_boy: what's the dimension of a hose anyway?
15:47<andythenorth>Pikka: hooses are not roadtypes
15:47<drac_boy>andythenorth barely just enough to even sastify <5% of the output of the tropical water pump or any oilwells :)
15:47<Pikka>I was working on the hooses already though
15:49<drac_boy>fori mind if I pm you re some other words or you're already tired for bed? :)
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15:51<krinn>hi everyone
15:51<Pikka>hello krinn
15:51<drac_boy>hi krinn
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15:59<drac_boy>anyone think you should be able to bring limited supply of food (aka feed) to a fishing ground or not so much so?
16:01<Zuu>If you want to limit the amount you need to introduce stock piling, a somewhat advanced thingy that I think has been decided to not have in FIRS.
16:02<drac_boy>zuu that wasn't quite the question heh. beside you can't feed 20 fishes 600 tonnes of food of a sudden :p
16:03<andythenorth>drac_boy: if the fishing ground is a fish farm, yes
16:03<andythenorth>if it's at sea, not
16:03<Zuu>Sure, but while there is a "temporary full" message, there is to my knowledge no message to OpenTTD that an industry uses stockpiling or what the limits are (except for literal strings)
16:03<krinn>drac_boy, maybe not for the fish, but you can still gave 600 tonnes of food to a fish farm, what they do with it while they raise only 20 fishes is their problem :P
16:04<drac_boy>andythenorth thats what I was thinking (my friend has no idea what to tell me re this so he's not much help!) .. no food input then
16:04<andythenorth>it was tried for FIRS briefly
16:04<andythenorth>it's stupid
16:04<andythenorth>reality is not our best guide, but in this case, it applies
16:04<drac_boy>at least the cattle ranch can accept some food since thats a bit obvious
16:05<andythenorth>you're delivering animal feed?
16:05<andythenorth>where does the feed come from?
16:05<drac_boy>yeah but to avoid complicating thing its just lumped into 'food'
16:05<drac_boy>did think about seperate hay_ for a moment but didn't see much merit
16:05<andythenorth>k
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16:06<andythenorth>so what does cattle ranch produce?
16:06<supermop>steak
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16:07<Pikka>ranch
16:07<drac_boy>I'm undecided between either shipping cattle out...or it being butchered on the spot and shipped out as meat instead
16:07<andythenorth>is meat food?
16:08<drac_boy>its a seperate one
16:09<andythenorth>drac_boy: so how is food produced?
16:09<TWerkhoven[l]>microwave meals
16:09<TWerkhoven[l]>ready to eat, just heat em up
16:10<drac_boy>theres a few small sources for food output.. farms ... flour mill (as breads is a 'food' after all heh) .. etc
16:10<krinn>food for cattle, i'm afraid with dead cattle
16:11<andythenorth>what do farms produce?
16:11<andythenorth>food directly?
16:11<Digitalfox>Since I'm not familiar with the development of GRFCodec, should I file a bug, when you get a error decompiling a GRF in 6.0.0 and not in 1.0.0? Maybe it's something known?
16:12<drac_boy>interestingly enough in railroad tycoon 2 you had (farm)>grain>(bakery)>food>(town) and (farm)>grain>(stockyard)>cattle>(butchery)>food>(town) ... my rough diagram is not too far off from that
16:12<andythenorth>drac_boy: FIRS doesn't have any farm->farm connection, but sometimes I think it should
16:12<andythenorth>it can't though :P
16:12<drac_boy>andythenorth actually the farm would produce just one output of something else that has to be sent to a middle industry for to then get 'food' out of it. I don't know which crops I'm thinking of yet but wheat is one consideration
16:14<drac_boy>wheat could go to either bakery for 'food' or to the brewery to be mixed with bottles (glass, steel, or ?) then outputted as 'food' .. theres other crop suggestions I could think of too tho
16:15<drac_boy>just as long as its not rice as that doesn't quite fit with snowy mountains :)
16:16<drac_boy>btw maybe I should draw what I have of a diagram and let you criticize it then? :p
16:17<andythenorth>maybe
16:17<andythenorth>hmm
16:17<andythenorth>it's quite tempting to put abstractions into code so that 'big changes are easy'
16:17<drac_boy>heh
16:17<andythenorth>this makes the code hard to work with when you have to read it and make small changes
16:18<andythenorth>and once every 5 years you make the big change
16:18<drac_boy>andythenorth btw do you think its plausible to make an industry that only can be placed on sloped tile adjacent to water?
16:18<andythenorth>which you could have done in an hour with find + replace
16:18<krinn>if you wish something none as done (to my knowledge) yet, it's trash :P
16:18<andythenorth>drac_boy: FIRS fishing harbour does it
16:18<krinn>town produce trash -> incinerator
16:18<andythenorth>krinn: it's borin
16:18<andythenorth>+g
16:18<drac_boy>andythenorth ah heh...I was thinking of a harbour in general but guess you got me beat to that idea :)
16:18<andythenorth>dunno why
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16:19<andythenorth>krinn: http://www.tt-foundry.com/sets/FIRS/schema/industries?economy=everything#incinerator
16:19<krinn>why deprecated ?
16:20<andythenorth>boring
16:20<andythenorth>does nothing for gameplay
16:20<andythenorth>basically there are 32 cargos, and 'trash' is not worth a slot
16:20<andythenorth>other things are more interesting
16:20<drac_boy>andythenorth do you think that this isn't a bad idea: steel mill...accepts coal+ore ... it'll work fine with ore alone ... adding coal would only upper the output ... but if you keep sending coal to it nonstop and little or no ore it'll eventually block off any further coal input?
16:21<andythenorth>drac_boy: try it and see
16:21<drac_boy>theres no limit on the ore... but as for the coal side itself I'm having to think a bit more about that
16:21<Pikka>tourists, andythenorth!
16:21<drac_boy>at least that would be a lot better than the irriating uksi and ecs behaviours (no offense meant please ok pikka?)
16:21<andythenorth>yes, because tourists are not passengers!
16:21<krinn>maybe restrict incinerator distance from town
16:21<andythenorth>tourists are Special Passengers!
16:21<andythenorth>like Blue Coal!
16:21<drac_boy>heh
16:21<andythenorth>or Red Cows!
16:22<krinn>eheh what are tourists? passengers that pay 2x everything
16:22<andythenorth>Pikka: when are you adding 1st class coaches to UKRS?
16:23<Pikka>after I add smoking and non-smoking passengers
16:23<drac_boy>andythenorth considering that the real things needed to make glass would be difficult to add tot an industry grf ... do you think that just sand alone would be enough or should it be sand plus a second something else? (don't suggest water if you'll mind, I'm assuming industries have their own city supply pipes heh)
16:23<andythenorth>Pikka: but think of the realism!
16:23<Pikka>*thinks*
16:23<drac_boy>heh
16:24<andythenorth>you could enforce that train formations *must* be accurate for that particular day and route
16:24<andythenorth>HSTs *must* be 4+1+2
16:24<andythenorth>you could render BROS invalid!
16:24<andythenorth>drac_boy: go play FIRS, and/or read the dev thread, and you'll discover what I think of industries
16:25<andythenorth>and the process I got there via :P
16:25<krinn>andythenorth, so what? i then couldn't make a train for smokers or cound't make one non smokers only ?
16:25<andythenorth>krinn: or you could smoke a train
16:25<andythenorth>newgrf smoke!
16:26<andythenorth>Pikka: ^ that is a significantly easier project, if roadtypes got boring
16:28<drac_boy>andythenorth theres only one small problem with your suggestion: the readme points to only ottd ^_^
16:28<andythenorth>?
16:28<drac_boy>krinn just don't forget to put the smokers up front closer to the steam locomotive :p
16:28<drac_boy>heh
16:28<andythenorth>only ottd is a problem because...?
16:29*drac_boy throws another of the patch at andythenorth
16:29<drac_boy>:p
16:29<andythenorth>?
16:29<Wolf01>'night
16:29-!-Wolf01 [~wolf01@host139-62-dynamic.252-95-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.]
16:29<Pikka>because you can't get the wood you know
16:29<drac_boy>andythenorth..you know..that other game :)
16:30-!-frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590f7dbe.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
16:30<@peter1138>simutrans?
16:30<andythenorth>oh that one
16:30<andythenorth>I've heard of that
16:30<andythenorth>it has some insane system of variable graphic sizes
16:30<drac_boy>peter1138 thats not a patch :)
16:30<drac_boy>but never mind
16:30<andythenorth>simutrans has cargo destinations too
16:30<andythenorth>drac_boy: you can't play ottd?
16:31-!-kkb110_ [~kkb110@NYUFGA-WLESSAUTHCLIENTS-01.NATPOOL.NYU.EDU] has joined #openttd
16:31<andythenorth>your platform is supported only by ttdp?
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16:32<Rubidium>andythenorth: I guess that's the way basically everyone starts
16:34<drac_boy>andythenorth yeah pretty much....unless someone gets that sidelined ottd-dos build started again but that seem unlikely :)
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16:35<Rubidium>drac_boy: that build still builds
16:35<andythenorth>how rare
16:35<drac_boy>Rubidium really?
16:35<andythenorth>it's an intriguing requirement
16:36<andythenorth>how will you draw your pixels in dos?
16:36<@peter1138>deluxe paint? :D
16:36-!-mahmoud [~KEM@ALyon-158-1-21-74.w90-29.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #openttd
16:36<drac_boy>andythenorth I don't ... dos is actually a guest os btw
16:36<drac_boy>;)
16:37<@planetmaker>so he runs neither Solaris, *BSD, Windows*, *Linux*, OSX > 10.3
16:37<drac_boy>andythenorth the pixels are coming from photoshop just fyi
16:37<krinn>must be running OS/2
16:37<@peter1138>basically dragonhorsedonkeypanthersheepsnakekoalaboychild likes ttdpatch
16:38<andythenorth>well that's fine
16:38<andythenorth>he's in a gang of 4 now
16:38<@planetmaker>krinn: there it works, too. I forgot
16:38<krinn>:D
16:38<@planetmaker>at least that's my latest info. orudge will know better.
16:38-!-Digitalfox [~Digitalfo@bl21-140-236.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit []
16:38<drac_boy>andythenorth the funny thing is I doubted it would even work but I can forward ethernet tcp/ip into dos .. so it does have some resemble of working ftp :p
16:39<@peter1138>and he wants to run openttd under dos as a guest os because that places a silly restriction on the availability of openttd for his platform
16:39-!-oskari89 [~oskari89@213-186-253-165.bb.dnainternet.fi] has quit []
16:39<drac_boy>usually use Fetch and then just copy the files to the shared folder for the emulator tho
16:39<@peter1138>what are you running dos on?
16:39<drac_boy>macos. via vpc
16:40<Rubidium>the dos build even seems to work (excl. network)
16:40<@peter1138>it's too easy to just run openttd under macos
16:41<valhallasw>it's not real ttd if it's not under dos!
16:41-!-DOUK [~KEM@ALyon-158-1-27-135.w90-29.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
16:42<drac_boy>peter1138 well I don't see any means to, and even Symantec C++ doesn't quite like the source
16:42<@planetmaker>peter1138: macos might indeed pose a big challenge. macos != OSX
16:42<andythenorth>drac_boy: so you're going to create a (large) set, in TTDP
16:42<andythenorth>which is a dead project
16:42<andythenorth>unmaintained
16:42<andythenorth>everybody working on it left
16:42<andythenorth>it has provably fewer useful features
16:42<drac_boy>andythenorth not that large actually. the rail list is <40 locomotives and <10 wagons
16:42<andythenorth>but you're doing an industry chain too?
16:43<drac_boy>only a small one...about 26 industries and 12 slots
16:43<drac_boy>cargo slots*
16:43<andythenorth>big enough
16:44<drac_boy>not really..I could had doubled it if I wanted to but thats getting too complex for a 'basic industry' tho :)
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16:45<drac_boy>anyhow going release a useable grf next month or two. maybe screenshots earlier tho ^_^
16:45<andythenorth>and you prefer playing TTDP?
16:45<andythenorth>:)
16:46<andythenorth>is it the custom bridgeheads by any chance?
16:47*FLHerne fiddles with More Heightlevels
16:47<drac_boy>not much of any features tbh
16:47<Fori>A "load 75% or more" command would be nice ^^
16:48<drac_boy>although programmable signals was one but I noticed that its in chrill's patch tho
16:48<andythenorth>so why the DOS / VirtualPC setup?
16:48<FLHerne>I think I did something wrong - the void has gone a very nice shade of pink :-(
16:48<drac_boy>fori I think I once suggested some sort of 0-100% loading option in the schedule dialog in steps of tens
16:48<drac_boy>not sure what anyone else really think of it
16:48<Fori>What do you think about it?
16:49<drac_boy>andythenorth because the only native version for macos was an old pre-deluxe one for japan. I doubt that it would be possible to get newgrfs working on it so thats a dead end for sure :)
16:49<drac_boy>fori I could use it
16:50<andythenorth>you have OS 9 or something?
16:50<drac_boy>andythenorth yeah
16:50<andythenorth>k
16:51<drac_boy>fori I think the partial load feature could help with pax trains..not leaving empty but not have to wait for a full load on a long train tho
16:51<drac_boy>hmm probably planes too
16:51<FLHerne>drac_boy: Just run linux on your old hardware, then OTTD on that :P
16:51<FLHerne>Worked for me :D
16:52<@planetmaker>:-)
16:52<drac_boy>FLHerne problem would be no software compactibility... plus you actually need to dualboot with macos due to firmware issues with anything thats below the G4
16:52<drac_boy>I do have YDL on one of the noninternet mac tho
16:53<FLHerne>Yes, I know the firmware's a pain. I ran Chill's PP on my PB1400, took about 6 hours to compile :P
16:54<drac_boy>FLHerne heh
16:54<FLHerne>Needed this project's kernel, the standard one doesn't work - http://nubus-pmac.sourceforge.net/
16:54<drac_boy>that makes me thinking..did ottd ever supported rails over tunnel portals?
16:55<@peter1138>oh right, so you're having to emulate an x86 cpu as well
16:55<@peter1138>that must be... slow
16:55<FLHerne>ALso, any ideas on my pink background? It looks rather silly, and I'm not quite sure how it happened :-(
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16:56<drac_boy>peter1138 for windows it can be but anything dos based doesn't really care because its already rather 'fast' for them
16:56<FLHerne>No, OTTD compiles for PPC ok
16:56<Rubidium>FLHerne: dos vs window palette
16:57<krinn>can't you just install a linux for ppc and play openttd?
16:57<drac_boy>FLHerne there is two small strips in the palette that is different between dos and windows afaik
16:57<drac_boy>one was that dos omitted the water strip present in win ... forgot what the second one was
16:57<drac_boy>I know that the win palette had a pink strip named 'Win API' I think
16:58<FLHerne>krinn: That's what I'm doing, still slow though, and the stable linux kernels don't work. OTTD at 133MHz is painful
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16:58<FLHerne>Rubidium: How do I change that then? Pallettes are irritating
16:59<Rubidium>I reckon the patch comes with an extra sprite, doesn't it?
16:59<krinn>FLHerne, well, what would you expect from such an old cpu... i'm not aware of any problem with kernel and ppc, but i'm not aware of ppc world
16:59<Rubidium>s/sprite/grf/
17:00<FLHerne>Rubidium: It does, yes. So it's using the wrong pallette and coming out pink instead of black?
17:00<Rubidium>exactly
17:01<FLHerne>krinn: Linux on PPC is Ok, the problem is nubus expansion slots, due to them being totally non-standard
17:01<Rubidium>so you need to convert that GRF to the other palette, or mess with the code so the 'right' palette is chosen
17:02<drac_boy>Rubidium grfcodec could deal with decode+encode into alternative palette didn't it?
17:02<FLHerne>Rubidium: thanks. I'll go and look at the wiki for palette conversion then :D
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17:02<Rubidium>drac_boy: it could
17:03<Rubidium>although I'm still not understanding why the extra sprite is needed
17:03<xiong>drac_boy, you may be the last OS 9 guy in the room. I used to be the last OS 9 guy and I still have a beige G3 in running condition.
17:03*drac_boy gives xiong a spare Macpose game cd? :)
17:03<drac_boy>heh
17:04<Rubidium>why do freeform edges work now, but don't they work correctly when having more heightlevels? That really smells like a bug in the heightlevels patch where the extra sprite is just an ugly workaround
17:04<xiong>I have some Tropico!
17:04<FLHerne>Beige G3s are nasty - I intend to dispose of mine '<
17:05<andythenorth>we sprayed ours blue
17:05<andythenorth>and then sold it for too much money
17:05<andythenorth>how rate
17:05<@planetmaker>lol, really? :-)
17:05<andythenorth>rare /s :P
17:05<xiong>Ship it to me, FLHerne; I'll pay the freight. I might need the spare someday.
17:05<andythenorth>we sold it for £200 or so
17:05<andythenorth>we bought it for £1200 and it paid back in about a year :P
17:06<FLHerne>It's one of the flat desktop ones - even worse than the towers :|
17:06<andythenorth>mmm...but the internals of the case are tidy
17:06<andythenorth>and you get a proper keyboard
17:06<xiong>The internals are very tidy indeed.
17:06<NGC3982>< xiong> I have some Tropico!
17:06<NGC3982>the game?
17:06<FLHerne>Not as good as the turquoise G4s :D
17:06<andythenorth>why is everyone suddenly a beige G3 owner?
17:06<xiong>Yes, NGC3982.
17:06<NGC3982>xiong: sweet jesus and mary joseph.
17:07<FLHerne>Little case-flopping open catches are nice
17:07<NGC3982>that is a fantastic game
17:07<NGC3982>forgotten about it completely
17:07<andythenorth>Open Tropico!
17:07*NGC3982 downloads in an instant.
17:07*andythenorth never played it
17:07<andythenorth>is there an OS X version available?
17:07*andythenorth likes Sid Meier
17:07<NGC3982>doesnt look like it
17:07*drac_boy actually prefers desktop form myself
17:07<drac_boy>would had rather ordered the DT over the MT if I was ever shopping around back then
17:07<NGC3982>i dont think i ever played tropico after the first game
17:07<xiong>I will participate in OpenTropico only if brothels are added.
17:08<drac_boy>andythenorth btw I don't know if it was on purpose or not but there are quite a number of new libs and softwares you can get binary for (or just compile yourself) on macos ... ghostscript comes to mind for one
17:09<NGC3982>xiong: well, let's get cracking then, ey.
17:09<andythenorth>Tropico 3 works on 10.6.8
17:09<andythenorth>lucky me
17:09<andythenorth>expect to not see me for a while :P
17:09<krinn>there's a 4 you know ?
17:09*NGC3982 misses tropico 1.
17:10<NGC3982>tropico 4 looks nice, but thats not what i want from a game.
17:10<NGC3982>surely, most of us dont in the premisses of this channel.
17:10<NGC3982>:)
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17:11*krinn wonders who is going to paint his screen with red and green lines to play space invaders like the real arcade now
17:11*andythenorth is going to bed
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17:11<NGC3982>:(
17:11<drac_boy>krinn maybe you should try some real vector games? I dunno :)
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17:12<krinn>asteroid 3D !
17:12<krinn>i'm going to bed, i feel too old now
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17:19<Fori>NGC, tropico 1 was so nice...
17:19<Fori>:)
17:20<Fori>Most of game series get destroyed by "improvements".
17:22<Nat_aS>Ehh, in general I agree with you, but I find Tropico 1 to be unplayable
17:22<Nat_aS>3 and 4 are the best
17:23<Nat_aS>although 4 made the right choice by not changing much from 3
17:23<Nat_aS>sometimes you can't even tell the diffrence from screenshots
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17:23<Fori>Well. Nat_aS the traffic system is a good idea but completely broken ^^
17:23<Nat_aS>I never had a problem with traffic
17:24<Nat_aS>i mean my streets get crowded, but I've never had it effect my island badly
17:24<Fori>Yeah.
17:26<@Terkhen>good night
17:26<Fori>n8
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17:27<Fori>Damn all those devs all blaming piracy for not well selling games -.-
17:27<Fori>It's about DRM and GOOD games.
17:27<Fori>Don't they get that?
17:27<Fori>Or are they aware and the rest is just PR ?
17:27<Fori>I'd pay for OpenTTD if it wasn't free. (I think I'll make a donation)
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17:38<Rubidium>OpenTTD is a good example that without DRM on good games you can't rake in millions
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17:43<@peter1138>Minecraft is a good example that without DRM on good games you can rake in millions
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17:44<+glx>there is a kind of DRM in minecraft ;)
17:45<@peter1138>centralised login, true
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17:51<ToxicFrog>A better example is GOG.
17:51<@peter1138>are they raking in millions?
17:52<ToxicFrog>They were as of their last report, yes.
17:52<ToxicFrog>And are signing new publishers at a steady rate - they just got Ubisoft on board.
17:54<MNIM>skyrim doesn't have a drm if Im not mistaken.
17:55<ToxicFrog>It does; it's Steamworks.
17:55<MNIM>..wait it has ste-oh yeah. piiiirated it.
17:55<MNIM>>.>
17:55<__ln__>But OpenTTD does have DRM. It won't even start without graphics files.
17:55<MNIM><.<
17:56<drac_boy>__ln__ you not heard of "go get opengfx" :p
17:56<Fori>MNIM, I did first. But then thought "Meh, you cannot buy Skyrim"...
17:56<Fori>:D
17:56<ToxicFrog>Rubidium: really, what openTTD is demonstrating right now is "freeware games don't make millions". No, really?
17:56<MNIM>what?
17:57<__ln__>drac_boy: If the bananas server or whatever is taken offline, then one can't get the opengfx and the game won't start.
17:57<Fori>Was talking about pirating Skyrim, MNIM
17:57<ToxicFrog>(and what it was demonstrating before opengfx was "games that are no longer sold don't make millions, but people are still willing to pirate them". This isn't surprising either, in either direction.)
17:57<ToxicFrog>(see also: the profusion of abandonware sites)
17:57<MNIM>I got that, fori, but your grammar makes no sense on me
17:57<drac_boy>__ln__ who said it was on bananas?
17:57<Fori>Oh, sorry.
17:57<Fori>I'm German.
17:57<MNIM>actually, __ln__, nope :P it's included in the ubuntu repos at least
17:58<__ln__>drac_boy: I don't know where the Windows installer gets it from, but that's irrelevant.
17:58<drac_boy>__ln__ where did you download your windows installer? there's a nearby url that says 'opengfx'
17:58<drac_boy>thats all I can say about that :)
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17:59<__ln__>MNIM: Ubuntu repos can be taken offline; even if not, using Ubuntu repos usually requires an Internet connection.
17:59<ToxicFrog>__ln__: calling this "DRM" is a stretch
17:59<ToxicFrog>Once you have the files downloaded, that's all you need
17:59<Fori>True, Toxicfrog.
18:00<ToxicFrog>By that definition, everything GOG releases "DRM-free" actually has DRM, because you have to actually download the game before you can play it.
18:01<drac_boy>yeah I had to check, click 'download openttd' ... and conventionally the opengfx url is located before the download table
18:01<Fori>That definition makes no sense to me.
18:01<Fori>Cause if you can copy the files once you downloaded them there's no DRM.
18:01<Fori>And launch without any LogIn and stuff.
18:01<ToxicFrog>Or, for a more similar comparison, Marathon Aleph-One, which has seperate downloads for the game engine and game data.
18:02<ToxicFrog>(although in that case the game data is actually the original game data, released as freeware by the developer, rather than a cleanroom replacement for it)
18:02<MNIM>well yeah. anyway, Imma agree with the frog here, that's a bit farfetched
18:02<Fori>When I heard SimCity uses Origin I was like :(
18:02<Fori>Or more.. ;(
18:03<Zuu>In 1.2, isn't there a dialog showing that asks to download OpenGFX if no data can be found?
18:03<Fori>Yes it is.
18:04<Fori>Well. At least the was for me ^^
18:04<Fori>*there
18:04<Zuu>It worked for me when I tried it when it was introduced in trunk.
18:04<+glx>maybe not for OSX ;)
18:05<Rubidium>glx: s/maybe/definitely/
18:05<Zuu>So its a DRM that you need Linux or Windows? ;-)
18:05<Fori>xD
18:05<Fori>Guys, I'm off, see ya tomorrow.
18:05<drac_boy>bye fori
18:05<+glx>it's because apple deprecation policy
18:05<Rubidium>Zuu: you also require freetype (and on Linux fontconfig)
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18:06<Rubidium>yeah, officially we only "support" 10.3.9, 10.4.x and 10.5.x
18:06<+glx>and it's enough pain
18:07<Rubidium>but effectively there's really no support at all
18:07<+glx>rewrite OSX port for each new OSX version is not nice
18:10<drac_boy>glx that was one thing i never understood apple for, treating each version as completely different os compared to everyone else
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18:11<+glx>drac_boy: that's a good thing for paid software ;)
18:11<drac_boy>not so much for most of everyone else :P
18:13<FLHerne>Goodnight everyone
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20:11<drac_boy>hi
20:12*drac_boy wonders if theres any europe or uk specific site for specifications on older freight wagons
20:14<FlyingFoX>hi, what is the ratio at which an oil refinery makes oil to goods?
20:14<FlyingFoX>is it 1to1?
20:16<drac_boy>don't know sorry, just don't forget that station rating also sorta affects the total output a bit too
20:21*drac_boy wonders if anyone else here might know
20:22<ToxicFrog>I don't, sorry
20:22<ToxicFrog>Although I could crowbar it open and check
20:23*ToxicFrog prods Trac. Give me a URL to check out from please
20:26<ToxicFrog>This may take a while.
20:27<+glx>http://wiki.openttd.org/SVN#How_can_I_obtain_the_source_code.3F
20:28<ToxicFrog>Yeah, got past that part
20:28<ToxicFrog>Waiting for it to check out now
20:28<+glx>I hope you don't forget the trunk part ;)
20:29<ToxicFrog>?
20:30<+glx>svn.openttd.org/trunk <-- this
20:30<+glx>else you get everything
20:31<drac_boy>anyone think a doubledeck wagon would had been double the capacity minus one or two less seat rows (since thats where the stairs goes) compared to a standard coach..or is there variety to that?
20:31<ToxicFrog>glx: I'm using git anyways, so
20:31<+glx>git has only trunk so it should be ok :)
20:33<ToxicFrog>Seriously? Why?
20:33<ToxicFrog>I assumed it was a git-svn mirror or similar
20:34<+glx>it is, but only trunk is synced
20:34<ToxicFrog>Aah
20:35<+glx>oh some branches are in git it seems
20:35<+glx>but not the tags
20:36<ToxicFrog>Hey, it's done
20:39<ToxicFrog>Ok, table/build_industry.h makes me very sad
20:40<ToxicFrog>At least it's decently commented
20:44<ToxicFrog>FlyingFoX: looks like it's 1:1
20:45<ToxicFrog>The refinery has a multiplier of 256 on incoming cargo amounts, but then in the economy code it takes 256 input units to make one output unit, so it's 1:1
20:48<+glx>of course newgrfs can change that ;)
20:53<drac_boy>as long as its not too much 'waste' for no reason. would be too silly if you unloaded 190,000 litres to then find ony 40,000 litres of fuel waiting for you :)
20:53<drac_boy>heh
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21:05<drac_boy>hmm....
21:05*drac_boy throws a lot of gibbish datas into here
21:05<drac_boy>:|
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21:38<drac_boy>ok thats enough for tonight now I think...ugh .. a few hours gone :-s
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23:34<Rhamphoryncus>Hrm, I think I have a broken town. Station near the center that I load from/deliver to/transfer to. 91% rating, 398 of 485 passengers. Appalling rating and town is NOT growing.
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---Logclosed Tue Apr 10 00:00:55 2012