--- | Log | opened Mon Apr 09 00:00:54 2012 |
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02:02 | <leonardo001> | hola |
02:02 | <leonardo001> | hi |
02:03 | <leonardo001> | hola |
02:03 | <leonardo001> | alguien? |
02:03 | <Rubidium> | morning |
02:04 | <leonardo001> | ? |
02:04 | <leonardo001> | hi! cuestion? |
02:04 | <leonardo001> | rubidium? |
02:05 | <leonardo001> | ahhh...openttd 32bpp? |
02:06 | <Rubidium> | what about it? |
02:06 | <leonardo001> | no me funcionan los .tar... |
02:07 | <Rubidium> | I have no idea what you're trying to ask |
02:08 | <leonardo001> | no working ottd 32 bpp... |
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02:10 | <leonardo001> | hi! |
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02:17 | <@planetmaker> | there's virutally no working 32bpp NewGRF |
02:17 | <@planetmaker> | yet |
02:18 | <@planetmaker> | the old tars won't work |
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02:20 | <@planetmaker> | oh, he left already |
02:28 | <Nat_aS> | wait, did somebody sugest a boat tunnel a while back? |
02:28 | * | Nat_aS is against the idea of canal bridges despite them existing in real life. |
02:31 | <@planetmaker> | canal bridges do exist in OpenTTD for 5(?) years |
02:32 | <Nat_aS> | yes |
02:32 | <Nat_aS> | and I hate them |
02:33 | <Nat_aS> | and now somebody is suggesting canal tunnels. |
02:33 | <@planetmaker> | @commit 13481 |
02:33 | <@DorpsGek> | planetmaker: Commit by smatz :: r13481 trunk/src/dock_gui.cpp (2008-06-11 21:37:36 UTC) |
02:33 | <@DorpsGek> | planetmaker: -Codechange: add 'B' keyboard shortcut to build aqueduct (planetmaker) |
02:33 | <@planetmaker> | yes. It's a valid idea, though I'm not sure about that one. You don't have to use a feature if you don't like it |
02:35 | <@planetmaker> | Adding that shortcut was my first OpenTTD patch ;-) |
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03:04 | <Rubidium> | canal tunnels are a big nightmare w.r.t. sprite sizes and hiding the sprite at the right moment |
03:11 | <Nat_aS> | as they should be! |
03:12 | <Nat_aS> | heck, most ships should not even be allowed onto aquaducts |
03:12 | <Nat_aS> | and some not even in Cannals |
03:14 | <@Alberth> | not at aquaducts? |
03:14 | <Nat_aS> | because of size |
03:14 | <Nat_aS> | Canal bridges IRL are for small barges. |
03:14 | <Nat_aS> | not supertankers. |
03:14 | <@Alberth> | oh, right, as weight is not relevent :) |
03:14 | <@planetmaker> | then make use of the canal speed fraction and ocean speed fraction for ships to discourage canal travel |
03:15 | <@Alberth> | *relevant |
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03:15 | <andythenorth> | niom |
03:15 | <@planetmaker> | but you should fish some fish with andythenorth there, Nat_aS ;-) |
03:15 | <@planetmaker> | hi andythenorth |
03:15 | <Nat_aS> | hi andy |
03:16 | <Nat_aS> | I was just talking about how cannal bridges are unrealistic because the ones that exist IRL are for barges not oceangoing ships |
03:16 | <Nat_aS> | and how cannal tunnels are even more retarded |
03:16 | * | andythenorth shrug |
03:16 | <@planetmaker> | :-D |
03:16 | <andythenorth> | noticed that depots are 1tile? |
03:17 | <andythenorth> | and that it never rains? |
03:17 | <andythenorth> | reality is not our best guide |
03:17 | <Nat_aS> | they still look dumb |
03:17 | <andythenorth> | when designing, it helps to imagine reality as one n-dimensional matrix |
03:17 | <Nat_aS> | I never build cannals |
03:18 | <@planetmaker> | simply don't use it. No need to get excited that no-one should use it, really :-) |
03:18 | <andythenorth> | then apply the equivalent of transforms to that matrix |
03:18 | <andythenorth> | resulting in 'game world' |
03:18 | <Nat_aS> | if you want to connect two bodies of water, spend a ton of money and use the landscaping tool |
03:18 | <@planetmaker> | how ugly |
03:18 | <@planetmaker> | how unrealistic |
03:18 | <andythenorth> | yeah |
03:18 | <andythenorth> | because a canal isn't created by digging a channel :P |
03:19 | <@planetmaker> | actually I might even ban such person on my server on grounds of damaging the map excessively |
03:19 | <andythenorth> | why do we even have canals? |
03:19 | <@planetmaker> | or you might find the landscaping too expensive anyway ;-) |
03:20 | <andythenorth> | ach |
03:20 | <Nat_aS> | we have canals because the game does not support water on higher levels |
03:20 | <Nat_aS> | or rather it didn't untill we added rivers |
03:20 | * | andythenorth needs to go somewhere with actual...wifi signal |
03:20 | <@planetmaker> | hiding in the bomb-proof cellar? :-P |
03:20 | <Nat_aS> | but seeing as how most places you would want to send a boat are at sea level anyways, it's more realistic to just dig a ditch |
03:21 | <Nat_aS> | even if that's expensive |
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03:21 | <Nat_aS> | aren't you suposed to be rolling in money after 10 years? |
03:21 | <Nat_aS> | (YOu may however make the local authority want to kill you) |
03:21 | <Nat_aS> | also, FEEDERS |
03:21 | <@planetmaker> | Nat_aS: you are. But if terraforming one tile border costs you 50 million? |
03:22 | <Nat_aS> | why bother connecting ships to things when you can just make a ship and a truck |
03:22 | <@planetmaker> | and a single vehicle has an annual revenue of 20k? |
03:22 | <Nat_aS> | ships work best with feeders anyways because it regularizes the flow |
03:22 | <Nat_aS> | which is important when chaining industries |
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03:32 | <@Alberth> | so many andys this morning! hi hi |
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04:01 | * | andythenorth has crazy wifi |
04:02 | * | andythenorth also has crazy ideas for NewGRF / NewNewGRF |
04:03 | <andythenorth> | wrt http://bugs.openttd.org/task/4934 |
04:04 | <andythenorth> | force vehicles to cache which sprites (set of sprites) they are currently use, and only allow that to changed with cbs |
04:05 | <andythenorth> | so basically instead of a graphics branch executed every tick, have a 'set graphics' cb, which has various triggers |
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04:05 | <@Alberth> | add a comment? |
04:05 | <andythenorth> | I need to kick around the idea a bit first |
04:05 | <andythenorth> | it works for all cases I can think of except: |
04:05 | <andythenorth> | - animation |
04:05 | <andythenorth> | - the new 'turn corners smoothly' behaviour |
04:06 | * | Alberth considers the latter a big hack |
04:06 | <andythenorth> | if e.g. animation is handling simply as a trigger on the 'set graphics' cb, we gain nothing, and turn newgrf world upside down pointlessly |
04:07 | <andythenorth> | as every vehicle would just end up animated, and still doing calculations on every tick :P |
04:07 | <@planetmaker> | andythenorth: might fail with sprite offsets / adv. action1 |
04:07 | <andythenorth> | adv. action1? |
04:08 | <@planetmaker> | register offsets |
04:08 | <andythenorth> | hmm |
04:08 | <@planetmaker> | afaik should works for vehicles, too :-) |
04:09 | <andythenorth> | is that described here? http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/Action1 |
04:09 | <andythenorth> | can't see it :) |
04:10 | <andythenorth> | hmm...animation could be handled |
04:10 | <andythenorth> | instead of caching one set of action 1 sprites, cache n |
04:10 | <andythenorth> | which are cycled through in a specific order, at a specific frame rate |
04:10 | <andythenorth> | this would make speed-dependent animation impossible though |
04:11 | <andythenorth> | hmm |
04:11 | <andythenorth> | but GetImage would then have to loop all the cached sprites to determine a sprite size for current frame? |
04:12 | <andythenorth> | maybe not, current frame would be known |
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04:13 | * | andythenorth wonders if frame rate could be changed on a per-tick basis |
04:13 | <andythenorth> | but that would then re-open the can of worms wrt checking 1 bazilion vars |
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04:14 | <andythenorth> | hmm |
04:14 | <andythenorth> | we'd know whether frame rate had changed |
04:14 | <andythenorth> | so sprite sizes could be cached |
04:14 | <andythenorth> | and cache could be invalidated if frame rate changed |
04:15 | <andythenorth> | or we could just ditch animation :P |
04:16 | <andythenorth> | if 'turn corners smoothly' is desirable, could that be provided by ottd, rather than a monster set of newgrf checks? |
04:16 | <andythenorth> | action 1 flag for 'grf provides intermediate turning sprites' |
04:16 | <andythenorth> | or something |
04:17 | <andythenorth> | basically my proposal is that graphics become more static and less dynamic |
04:17 | <@planetmaker> | maybe that's the more sound idea. Though I'd rather go for "provides N sprites per set" where N = 8*n |
04:17 | <@planetmaker> | hm... maybe not 8*n |
04:18 | * | Alberth supports the idea to define more vehicle sprites instead |
04:18 | <andythenorth> | I see no gain from current approaches to common graphics problems, e.g. 'show cargo x in vehicle z by checking vars for type of lead vehicle, age of vehicle, cargo class' |
04:18 | <andythenorth> | ^ why does that need calculating on *every* tick |
04:19 | <andythenorth> | cache it when the vehicle leaves station, depot etc |
04:19 | <@Alberth> | the problem is deciding you don't need to compute it every tick |
04:19 | * | andythenorth decided that |
04:19 | <andythenorth> | :) |
04:19 | <@planetmaker> | :-) |
04:19 | <andythenorth> | you don't need to calculate capacity on every tick, so we don't |
04:19 | <andythenorth> | nor hp |
04:19 | <andythenorth> | nor weight |
04:19 | <@planetmaker> | well, really, post it in that FS entry |
04:19 | <andythenorth> | nor other intrinsic properties |
04:20 | <@planetmaker> | we don't calculate that every tick |
04:20 | <andythenorth> | I'm making the case that 'current graphics' is an intrinsic property of vehicle that only changes occasionally |
04:20 | <@planetmaker> | callbacks are called... when they're called |
04:20 | <@planetmaker> | the current spriteset. yes |
04:21 | <@planetmaker> | I'm not entirely sure how much caching is done already, though. |
04:21 | <andythenorth> | me neither :P |
04:21 | <andythenorth> | I'm guessing |
04:21 | <andythenorth> | we don't see graphic glitches with failure to invalidate caches, so either there is none, or it's very very good |
04:22 | <andythenorth> | I should write it up better, dumping in this irc log is not helpful :P |
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04:27 | <Eddi|zuHause> | andythenorth: the graphics must be updated (almost) every time the vehicle moves, because of things like curvature info may change |
04:27 | <Eddi|zuHause> | andythenorth: the graphics are thus only reasonably cached while the game is paused |
04:29 | <Eddi|zuHause> | (only the realsprite is currently cached, so it must be re-evaluated on vehicle turning anyway, even if not using callbacks) |
04:32 | <andythenorth> | Eddi|zuHause: wrt curvature - if this didn't do complex varaction 2 things, do you think it would be any faster? |
04:32 | <andythenorth> | or is it simply the number of vehicles and therefore checks that is significant? |
04:32 | <Eddi|zuHause> | i don't know what you mean |
04:34 | <andythenorth> | hmm |
04:34 | <andythenorth> | is the 'large number of calculations' issue caused by: |
04:35 | <andythenorth> | - 'newgrf vehicles run complex varaction 2 chains to resolve graphics' |
04:35 | <Eddi|zuHause> | alone that you call a callback is slow, what's being calculated there doesn't matter that much (vaguely paraphrasing michi_cc) |
04:35 | <andythenorth> | or by 'every vehicle must be checked' |
04:35 | <andythenorth> | reading the FS, I'm unclear |
04:36 | <Eddi|zuHause> | i'm not quite awake enough yet |
04:36 | <andythenorth> | it seems that not resolving sprites for every vehicle would be useful, but TB also implies it's mostly an issue caused by newgrf |
04:37 | * | andythenorth tea |
04:38 | <Eddi|zuHause> | sure it's "caused" by newgrf, in the sense that if you want to change it now, you have to remove some functionality |
04:38 | <Eddi|zuHause> | you can certainly design it in a way that it isn't needed |
04:38 | <Eddi|zuHause> | but that results in a different set of features, and thus breaks backwards compatibility |
04:38 | <andythenorth> | from frosch comments, it seems there could be multiple attacks on the problem |
04:38 | <andythenorth> | breaking backwards compatibility I don't care |
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04:39 | <andythenorth> | lo Pikka |
04:39 | <Pikka> | lo bob |
04:39 | <Pikka> | you have trucks? |
04:39 | <Eddi|zuHause> | maybe, but other people developing grfs might |
04:39 | <andythenorth> | not so much |
04:39 | <andythenorth> | Eddi|zuHause: I know :) |
04:40 | <Eddi|zuHause> | the specs say all valid GRFs will keep their functionality |
04:40 | <Pikka> | trucks trucks trucks trucks trucks |
04:40 | <Pikka> | TRUCKS! |
04:40 | <Pikka> | when come back bring trucks |
04:40 | <andythenorth> | Pikka: no no no no theoretical discussions about newgrf format instead :P |
04:40 | <Eddi|zuHause> | (unless you introduce a completely new newgrf-version) |
04:40 | <Pikka> | oh |
04:40 | <Pikka> | well |
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04:40 | <Pikka> | don't break old grfs |
04:40 | <Pikka> | eod |
04:40 | <Eddi|zuHause> | see :) |
04:40 | <andythenorth> | blah |
04:41 | <Eddi|zuHause> | qed :p |
04:41 | <andythenorth> | not so simple |
04:41 | <Pikka> | why not? |
04:41 | <andythenorth> | what if a newgrf v9 or so provided authors with the option to use more efficient methods? |
04:41 | * | andythenorth thinks probably still better to fix ottd :P |
04:42 | <Pikka> | more efficient than what? |
04:42 | <andythenorth> | more efficient than running a varaction 2 chain on every vehicle every tick, whether it is anywhere near a viewport or not |
04:42 | <andythenorth> | underlying this is basically an argument for vehicle-local storage :P |
04:42 | <Pikka> | eh |
04:43 | <Pikka> | vehicle-local storage is all very well |
04:43 | <andythenorth> | maybe andythenorth should go and draw trucks |
04:44 | <Pikka> | I don't see how being anywhere near a viewport is an issue though |
04:44 | <andythenorth> | no that's completely separate issue indeed |
04:44 | <andythenorth> | http://bugs.openttd.org/task/4934 |
04:44 | <andythenorth> | and I have no idea how caching is applied to varaction 2, sprite drawing etc |
04:45 | <andythenorth> | so I might be talking out of my arse anyway :P |
04:45 | <Pikka> | well |
04:45 | <Pikka> | you still have to go through the action 2 chain even if you're not drawing the vehicle, because of callbacks |
04:46 | <andythenorth> | my guess is that 'fetch value from storage' might be slightly faster than 'compute loads of stuff from vars' |
04:46 | <Pikka> | also, if my machine is processing vehicles differently from your machine because we're looking at different parts of the map, that sounds like desync central :) |
04:47 | <andythenorth> | that would be....undesirable ;) |
04:47 | <Pikka> | let's make the maximum map size 256*, problem solved ;) |
04:47 | <andythenorth> | I suggested 512* |
04:48 | <andythenorth> | but that was over-ruled :( |
04:48 | <Pikka> | that would do :) |
04:48 | <andythenorth> | I also think limit number of vehicles :P |
04:48 | <Pikka> | multithreading har har |
04:48 | <andythenorth> | my trucks are multiprocessor aware |
04:48 | <andythenorth> | and indeed much faster as a result |
04:48 | <Pikka> | sentient trucks |
04:49 | <Pikka> | we're all doomed |
04:49 | <V453000> | :D |
04:49 | <andythenorth> | http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0071717/ |
04:49 | <andythenorth> | why can't we have vehicle local storage? performance reasons? |
04:50 | <Pikka> | everything's performance reasons |
04:50 | <andythenorth> | or because of property-checking loops between neighbouring vehicles? |
04:50 | <Pikka> | mostly that no-one can be bothered performing the necessary work ;) |
04:50 | <Pikka> | that sounds like fun |
04:50 | <andythenorth> | vehicle A checks storage on vehicle B |
04:51 | <andythenorth> | vehicle B then changes value |
04:51 | <andythenorth> | result: boom! |
04:51 | <Pikka> | the "no-you" condition |
04:51 | <andythenorth> | pushmepullyou |
04:51 | <Pikka> | filthy |
04:51 | <andythenorth> | consist storage? |
04:52 | <andythenorth> | probably even worse :P |
04:52 | <Pikka> | there's no such thing as a consist |
04:52 | <Pikka> | only lead vehicles |
04:52 | <andythenorth> | lead vehicle storage? |
04:52 | <andythenorth> | probably even worse |
04:52 | <@Alberth> | consists should have been invented ages ago |
04:53 | <andythenorth> | consists as templates, or consists as 'lead vehicle + trailing vehicles' ? :P |
04:53 | <@Alberth> | let's start with the latter, shall we? :) |
04:53 | <andythenorth> | storage on consist templates is an even more bonkers idea |
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04:54 | <andythenorth> | storage on consist templates could handle all this livery for groups crap and other such things |
04:54 | <andythenorth> | Alberth: why should consists be invented? |
04:55 | <andythenorth> | Pikka: trucks need better wheels |
04:55 | <oskari89> | Consists should http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=43972 help that one :) |
04:55 | <andythenorth> | and some cabs :P |
04:55 | <Pikka> | I'll draw some trucks soon (tm) |
04:55 | <@Alberth> | aaarggghhhh!! brain overloaaadd .... must .. ignore .. consists .... templa |
04:55 | <andythenorth> | Alberth: imagine the possibilities :) |
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04:55 | <Pikka> | more 19th century buildings first |
04:55 | <Pikka> | and roadtypes |
04:56 | <Pikka> | let's do roadtypes |
04:56 | <andythenorth> | let's |
04:56 | <Pikka> | how far did you get? |
04:56 | <andythenorth> | I don't want to discuss that :( |
04:56 | <andythenorth> | not far |
04:56 | <andythenorth> | also it's been suggested to wait for new map array |
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04:56 | <@Alberth> | good morning! |
04:56 | <andythenorth> | hello Alberth |
04:56 | <andythenorth> | nice to see you |
04:57 | <Pikka> | when does the map array? |
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04:57 | <andythenorth> | yes |
04:57 | <andythenorth> | my point exactly |
04:57 | <Pikka> | Alberth: new map array! |
04:57 | <@Alberth> | where? |
04:57 | <Pikka> | bugger consists, we need newroads :) |
04:57 | <andythenorth> | without the new map array (or map layers), we don't get enough roadtypes to keep Eddi|zuHause happy ;) |
04:57 | <Pikka> | where we're going we will need roads |
04:57 | <andythenorth> | my solution to combining roadtypes would be clunky tbh |
04:58 | <Eddi|zuHause> | Pikka: i remember that quote differently :;p |
04:58 | <andythenorth> | we'd need types like 'tarmac with trolleybus and tram' |
04:58 | <@Alberth> | there exist experiments with new map arrays, but I don't know their state |
04:58 | <oskari89> | Dynamic train composition could be very nice feature to have, at least i think so, there could be feeder traffic to/from larger trains :) |
04:58 | <Pikka> | andythenorth: let's not layer |
04:58 | <Pikka> | let's different roadtypes |
04:59 | <andythenorth> | crossing becomes an arse iirc |
04:59 | <andythenorth> | I did have it all solved in my head though |
04:59 | <andythenorth> | the pictures were beautiful :P |
04:59 | <Pikka> | didn't I propose allowing a seperate roadtype in each quarter of the tile? ;) |
04:59 | <andythenorth> | much was proposed :) |
04:59 | <@Alberth> | oh, nice colours you could make |
05:00 | <andythenorth> | map bits not enough we have |
05:00 | <Pikka> | nonsense, there's heaps |
05:00 | <andythenorth> | we have silly hysterical raisins to account for, like roadworks counter |
05:00 | <andythenorth> | clearly important :P |
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05:01 | <Pikka> | well roadworks counter can go away :) |
05:01 | <andythenorth> | no no, everything must be supported, for ever |
05:01 | <andythenorth> | because roadworks are so much gameplay fun :P |
05:01 | <oskari89> | :D |
05:01 | <andythenorth> | also for all the sense it makes: http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/1300/ |
05:01 | <oskari89> | Railworks! |
05:02 | <@Alberth> | oskari89: we ahve the big ufo for that :) |
05:02 | <Pikka> | andythenorth: first thing we do is drop trams as a seperate layer |
05:02 | <andythenorth> | ? |
05:02 | <andythenorth> | in the graphics drawing, or in the bits? |
05:03 | <Pikka> | in the bits |
05:03 | <andythenorth> | yes |
05:03 | <andythenorth> | can't see why it would be needed |
05:03 | <andythenorth> | it's just property of the type |
05:04 | <andythenorth> | does that reduce number of owner bits needed? :O |
05:04 | <Pikka> | yes |
05:04 | <andythenorth> | so I can't build my tram track along your road? |
05:04 | <andythenorth> | but I can cross it |
05:04 | * | oskari89 is fitting FIRS cargoes to Finnish Trainset wagons |
05:04 | <andythenorth> | oskari89 :) |
05:04 | <andythenorth> | oskari89: you'll be pleased when I change all FIRS cargos again then ;) |
05:05 | <andythenorth> | oh wait, I promised not to do that :P |
05:05 | <oskari89> | :P |
05:05 | <oskari89> | Please do not change ID's. |
05:05 | <oskari89> | :D |
05:05 | <andythenorth> | oskari89: if you do the support based on label you'll be fine |
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05:06 | <andythenorth> | and don't rely on classes if you want refits or graphics for specific cargos |
05:06 | <oskari89> | I'm not literally coding, just fitting them on tracking tables. |
05:06 | <andythenorth> | Pikka: so how many bits needed? |
05:06 | <Pikka> | ownership and updating is a tricky thing, yes :) |
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05:10 | <Eddi|zuHause> | andythenorth: your multiline-timestamps make the logs very hard to read |
05:11 | <andythenorth> | sorry, stupid paste format |
05:11 | <Pikka> | how do rail crossings decide what to use? is it highest ID? I guess we could use the same for roadtypes... |
05:11 | <andythenorth> | Eddi|zuHause: there's not much of use there anyway |
05:13 | <Eddi|zuHause> | Pikka: what do you mean? there's only ever one railtype on one tile, so no difficulty to choose anything |
05:13 | <andythenorth> | Pikka: didn't read the source, but seems highest ID wins |
05:13 | <Pikka> | yes eddi, but if you build one line across another |
05:13 | <Pikka> | say, 3rd rail across normal rail |
05:13 | <Pikka> | the intersection becomes 3rd rail regardless of which was built first |
05:14 | <oskari89> | Well, Finnish Railset has 8 types of level crossing overlays.. |
05:14 | <Eddi|zuHause> | i believe it's the compatibility/powered half-order deciding this |
05:14 | <Pikka> | hmm, interesting |
05:14 | <Eddi|zuHause> | if A is compatible and powered on B, then B wins |
05:14 | <Pikka> | if I build a "dual power" track across a 3rd rail track, the crossing ends up 3rd rail only ;) |
05:14 | <Eddi|zuHause> | if not, then conversion fails |
05:15 | <Pikka> | anyway, we could do something similar for roadtypes, have some way of working out connections |
05:15 | <andythenorth> | peter1138 worked all this out once |
05:15 | <Pikka> | like in the given example of a dirt road and a highway, the highway should win based on some criteria |
05:15 | <Eddi|zuHause> | highways shouldn't allow crossing :) |
05:15 | <Pikka> | well |
05:15 | <Pikka> | a dirt road and a tarmac road then :P |
05:15 | <Eddi|zuHause> | (needs special onramp/offramp objects) |
05:16 | <oskari89> | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XBL13JzREz4 |
05:16 | <oskari89> | What about sweden, it has level crossing on highways ^^ |
05:18 | <andythenorth> | Pikka: I had a thing about type 1 and type 2 in layer order |
05:18 | <Eddi|zuHause> | http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/1301/ <-- as far as i can see, this is the code that determins which railtype "wins" |
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05:18 | <andythenorth> | and some types would always try to be drawn higher, others lower |
05:18 | <Pikka> | yeah, but I think we should drop type 1 and type 2 |
05:19 | <andythenorth> | k |
05:19 | <oskari89> | Do diagonal roads along with roadtypes :) |
05:19 | <Wolf01> | hello |
05:19 | <Pikka> | it just needs more thinking about ownership when it comes to overbuilding |
05:19 | <andythenorth> | roadtype property for 'prefers to be higher' ? |
05:20 | * | andythenorth can't see any way for ottd to determine which should be drawn higher without author setting a prop |
05:20 | <andythenorth> | e.g. use compatibility or such |
05:20 | <Pikka> | yes, we could have an ordering property |
05:21 | <Eddi|zuHause> | that would mean that all types are known by the GRF |
05:21 | <oskari89> | http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=58049&p=988747 <- Would appreciate that :) |
05:21 | <Pikka> | with some recommended values so roadtypes can work together, not that I imagine having more than one roadtype grf loaded at once is a good idea |
05:21 | <andythenorth> | ach |
05:21 | <Eddi|zuHause> | "not good idea" != "won't happen" |
05:21 | <Pikka> | I know eddi |
05:21 | <andythenorth> | so let's overlook that for now :P |
05:21 | <Pikka> | but it should still work across grfs :) |
05:21 | <andythenorth> | it is what it is |
05:22 | <Eddi|zuHause> | Pikka: relying on that will almost certainly bite you in the maintainability/extensibility ass |
05:22 | <Pikka> | I'm not relying on it eddi |
05:22 | <Pikka> | I'm saying that it should be fine either way |
05:23 | <andythenorth> | just set two bits 'prefers high', 'prefers low' |
05:23 | <Pikka> | no |
05:23 | <Eddi|zuHause> | Pikka: i think the railtype compatibility check has some problems when the vehicles are powered on both railtypes |
05:23 | <Eddi|zuHause> | Pikka: then the new one seems to win |
05:23 | <Pikka> | andy, what is "high" and "low"? |
05:24 | <Eddi|zuHause> | Pikka: it doesn't search for a "lowest common multiple" |
05:24 | <Pikka> | fair enough eddi |
05:24 | <andythenorth> | 'prefers to be drawn above other types' 'prefers to be drawn below other types' |
05:24 | <andythenorth> | makes no reference to what they other type(s) are |
05:24 | <Pikka> | nothing's being drawn above or below anything |
05:24 | <Pikka> | there's one roadtype per type |
05:24 | <Pikka> | er |
05:24 | <Pikka> | per tile |
05:25 | <andythenorth> | how are crossings handled? |
05:25 | <Pikka> | one roadtype "wins" at crossings |
05:25 | <Pikka> | ie, the one with the highest value in the prop :) |
05:26 | <Pikka> | this property, I suppose, could also be used for overbuilding other people's roads |
05:26 | <Pikka> | you can overbuild only with a roadtype with a higher value than the existing one |
05:26 | <Eddi|zuHause> | Pikka: in your case, it checks whether all vehicles for "universal" are powered on "3rd rail" [true], and all vehicles for "3rd rail" are powered on "universal" [true], but it ignores the fact that "electric" are not compatible anymore (that is too far removed for the check) |
05:26 | <Pikka> | and the ownership does not change... |
05:26 | <Pikka> | I see eddi |
05:27 | <Eddi|zuHause> | it may be solvable |
05:28 | <andythenorth> | Pikka: let's try some cases |
05:28 | <Rubidium> | and what if the new road has a significantly higher maintenance cost? Should the original owner pay for that? |
05:28 | <andythenorth> | you have vanilla tarmac road, overbuildable by anything |
05:28 | <andythenorth> | I build a farm track across it |
05:29 | <andythenorth> | what happens wrt overbuilding being allowed, graphics, vehicle compatibility etc? |
05:29 | <Eddi|zuHause> | Pikka: need owner for each road bit :) |
05:29 | <Pikka> | no |
05:29 | <Pikka> | presumably, tarmac road will have a higher rating than farm track, so where they cross the junction will be tarmac road |
05:30 | <andythenorth> | and when I'm building, can I just extend-drag my farm track across your road? |
05:30 | <Pikka> | yes |
05:30 | <andythenorth> | or do I have to switch type for the junction tile? |
05:30 | <Pikka> | you should be able to drag across it, and it will automatically build the junction |
05:30 | <Pikka> | with tarmac road |
05:30 | <andythenorth> | and I get charged the cost of tarmac? or farm track? |
05:31 | <Pikka> | tarmac I guess. that's a minor issue though. |
05:31 | <Pikka> | Rubidium: yes, the original owner pays the increased maintanance cost |
05:31 | <andythenorth> | and if my vehicle is 10mph on farm track, but 50mph on tarmac, does it accelerate on this tile? |
05:31 | <Pikka> | yes |
05:31 | <Pikka> | because it's tarmac |
05:32 | <andythenorth> | so if there is a grid of roads e.g. | | | | | | |
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05:32 | <andythenorth> | I could build a cheap farm track and get better performance at your cost? |
05:32 | <andythenorth> | in fact, possibly griefing you in MP with extra costs |
05:32 | * | andythenorth doesn't think this is automatically bad |
05:33 | <Pikka> | there's no extra cost in this case, I already have the tarmac road tiles |
05:33 | <Pikka> | you building farm track across it doesn't give me more tarmac tiles |
05:33 | <andythenorth> | k so the extra couple of bits make no difference |
05:33 | * | andythenorth is sold so far |
05:33 | <Pikka> | yes, it's griefable. but multiplayer is already griefable |
05:33 | <andythenorth> | +1 |
05:33 | <Pikka> | especially when it comes to roads |
05:34 | <andythenorth> | and non-griefing games might be very dull |
05:34 | <andythenorth> | life is griefable :P |
05:34 | <Pikka> | for example, if you build a road connecting to my road, I can already remove the junction where they connect |
05:34 | <andythenorth> | +1 |
05:34 | <andythenorth> | roadworks are built-in griefing? :P |
05:34 | <oskari89> | I think if crossing type is user-defined, that would be nice. |
05:34 | <andythenorth> | ? no :P |
05:34 | <Pikka> | if I have a network of dirt roads and you go and upgrade them all to super-duper highways and blow my costs out of the water |
05:35 | <Pikka> | the solution is to not play with you any more :) |
05:35 | <andythenorth> | +1 |
05:35 | <andythenorth> | the solution is to always make sure you're the server admin :P |
05:35 | <andythenorth> | praps that's why there appears to be more servers than players |
05:35 | <andythenorth> | k |
05:35 | <andythenorth> | so you've solved it? |
05:36 | <andythenorth> | can I build tram tracks along your superhighway? |
05:36 | <Pikka> | probably not |
05:36 | <Pikka> | highways tend not to have tram tracks |
05:36 | <andythenorth> | so 'tram' is a type property, not a bit |
05:36 | <Pikka> | yes |
05:36 | <Pikka> | you can build tarmac+tram along my tarmac |
05:36 | <andythenorth> | which means 'pipeline' could be a type property? :| :P |
05:37 | <andythenorth> | also 'underground metro' |
05:37 | <Pikka> | I guess so, but no. :P |
05:38 | <andythenorth> | the build menu is going to be sucky |
05:38 | <andythenorth> | but it's identical to railtypes |
05:38 | <Pikka> | I guess one shortcoming is that if you're building tram tracks on my roads and you make a mistake, you have to ask me to remove it... |
05:38 | <andythenorth> | ho |
05:38 | <andythenorth> | interesting case |
05:39 | <andythenorth> | store a transaction history per tile, allow rollback |
05:40 | <andythenorth> | praps not |
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05:40 | <Pikka> | nah |
05:40 | <andythenorth> | how do I do elevated trams? |
05:40 | <Pikka> | hopefully you don't |
05:40 | <andythenorth> | +1 |
05:41 | <andythenorth> | they drive through bridges |
05:41 | <andythenorth> | I looked into it :P |
05:41 | <Eddi|zuHause> | subway/high rail may be better implemented with custom bridges |
05:41 | <Pikka> | roadtypes isn't going to allow proper elevated metros and pipelines any more than railtypes has allowed proper underground subways |
05:42 | <andythenorth> | 'proper' |
05:42 | <andythenorth> | ho |
05:42 | * | andythenorth was planning improper ;) |
05:42 | <Pikka> | well |
05:42 | <andythenorth> | Eddi|zuHause: + lots to that |
05:42 | <Pikka> | you can improper all you like |
05:42 | <Pikka> | but it's still going to be, basically, vehicles driving along a road |
05:42 | <Pikka> | or a canal ;) |
05:42 | <Pikka> | berb dinner |
05:43 | <andythenorth> | Eddi|zuHause: subway by: (1) cut channel fill with rail (2) build bridge for road over top (3) hope town fills in slopes with buildings |
05:43 | <andythenorth> | stations are sucky though |
05:43 | <andythenorth> | there's a station set somewhere with buildings above the station |
05:43 | <Eddi|zuHause> | andythenorth: but you cannot build the road bridge along the rail/tram |
05:44 | <Eddi|zuHause> | andythenorth: only across |
05:44 | <andythenorth> | Eddi|zuHause: you can if the rail turns out before the bridge ends |
05:44 | <andythenorth> | can't you? |
05:44 | * | andythenorth tests |
05:44 | <Eddi|zuHause> | and even if you could build it across, the town won't build houses next to the road |
05:44 | <Eddi|zuHause> | andythenorth: well, yes, but the turn takes so much space that it's useless |
05:46 | <andythenorth> | and you can't create road junctions |
05:47 | <andythenorth> | that's the real killer |
05:47 | * | andythenorth just tried :P |
05:47 | <Eddi|zuHause> | hm... we don't have transitivity on the powered relation |
05:47 | <Eddi|zuHause> | that makes a lcm difficult |
05:51 | <frosch123> | awesome, fs#5143 was broken between ottd 0.3 and ottd 0.4 |
05:51 | <@Alberth> | :) |
05:51 | <Pikka> | shameful |
05:51 | <Eddi|zuHause> | so much for people playing toyland :p |
05:51 | <@Alberth> | So I played all those toyland games with the wrong graphics :p |
05:52 | <frosch123> | that likely means that the fix will break ogfx |
05:52 | <frosch123> | (i only played toyland with ogfx) |
05:52 | <V453000> | toyland with ttd graphics is for real me |
05:52 | <V453000> | men |
05:52 | <Eddi|zuHause> | i don't see the difference |
05:53 | <Pikka> | the "glass" bottoms on the towers, presumably |
05:53 | <frosch123> | yup |
05:53 | <Eddi|zuHause> | aha... |
05:54 | <V453000> | isnt that bad :) |
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06:00 | <Eddi|zuHause> | hm, so can we _make_ the powered relation transitive? (if A is powered on B, and B is powered on C, then A is also powered on C) |
06:01 | <Eddi|zuHause> | hm, no, that breaks the universal rail case even more |
06:03 | <andythenorth> | what is the universal rail case? |
06:06 | * | Pikka creates "Some Other Road Types Definition" page on pikkawiki |
06:07 | -!- | drac_boy [~drac_boy@modemcable085.125-161-184.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #openttd |
06:07 | <drac_boy> | hi |
06:07 | -!- | Fori [4e33b2b6@ircip4.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd |
06:07 | <Fori> | Morning |
06:07 | -!- | Chris_Booth [~chatzilla@host86-158-199-160.range86-158.btcentralplus.com] has joined #openttd |
06:07 | <drac_boy> | hi fori :) how're you? |
06:07 | <Fori> | I'm fine thanks ^^ |
06:07 | * | andythenorth creates 3/8 long truck body plan |
06:08 | <Fori> | How's your translation going on? ^^ |
06:08 | <Fori> | Cast your vote ECS or FIRS? |
06:08 | <drac_boy> | fori hmm...theres a few words I could use alternative suggestions on otherwise its going along ok...some new data too |
06:08 | <andythenorth> | +0 |
06:09 | <Fori> | I dunno which one to use. |
06:09 | <Pikka> | silly andythenorth, 3/8 isn't "long" ;) |
06:09 | <Eddi|zuHause> | 3/8 is currently the shortest i allow in my scheme :) |
06:09 | <andythenorth> | indeed not |
06:09 | <andythenorth> | it's teeny tiny |
06:09 | <drac_boy> | fori hmm well I would have to say firs ... ecs has a few weird things (not counting the difficult steel mill) |
06:09 | <Eddi|zuHause> | 16/8 the longest |
06:09 | <Fori> | Wow... Am I just in one chatroom with the creators of FIRS and Aviators Aircraft? |
06:10 | <frosch123> | tron broke it in a _huge_ coding style commit |
06:10 | <frosch123> | @commit 3181 |
06:10 | <@DorpsGek> | frosch123: Commit by tron :: r3181 /trunk (63 files in 5 dirs) (2005-11-14 19:48:04 UTC) |
06:10 | <@DorpsGek> | frosch123: -Bracing |
06:10 | <@DorpsGek> | frosch123: -Indentation |
06:10 | <@DorpsGek> | frosch123: -Whitespace |
06:10 | <Pikka> | seems possible, Fori |
06:10 | <@DorpsGek> | frosch123: -DeMorgan's Law |
06:10 | <andythenorth> | Fori: imagine |
06:10 | <@DorpsGek> | frosch123: (...) |
06:10 | <Fori> | Wow. |
06:10 | <Fori> | ^^ |
06:10 | <Fori> | Just take a THANKS of mine for your work :) |
06:10 | <Eddi|zuHause> | frosch123: so much for non-logic-changing commits :) |
06:10 | <andythenorth> | Fori: :) |
06:11 | <Fori> | Thanks drac, I'll try out FIRS then. |
06:11 | <Fori> | Which trainsets do you use drac? Or anyone? 2cc has simply too many...^^ |
06:12 | <drac_boy> | any of you think that for a generic set I should consider adding some kind of commuter-related wagon or two? lets say the newest passenger wagon seats 60 then I probably could make something that'll 'seats' I dunno maybe 110 and come with a lower top speed as a result? |
06:13 | * | drac_boy agrees that 2cc is a bit too unwieldy especially with many too-alike trains |
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06:13 | <Pikka> | I use UKRS2, Fori :) |
06:14 | <Pikka> | but I would |
06:14 | <Fori> | It doesnt work with OpenTTD 1.1.5 |
06:14 | <Fori> | At least NewGRF manager says that. |
06:15 | <Pikka> | no, it doesn't |
06:15 | <Pikka> | but there's no reason not to update to 1.2.0RC4 |
06:15 | * | andythenorth would use eels |
06:15 | <andythenorth> | but nobody coded them :( |
06:15 | <drac_boy> | whats eels? |
06:15 | <Pikka> | didn't they? |
06:15 | <Fori> | There is an eels addon andy ^^ |
06:15 | <Fori> | Okay Pikka! :) |
06:15 | <Pikka> | I checked someone's savegame for them the other day and they were using eels. |
06:15 | <Fori> | Doing that right now. |
06:16 | <drac_boy> | fori I guess this is to our own but I don't like ukrs or ukrs2 too much game-wise |
06:16 | <drac_boy> | but the list of locomotives given (from pikkawiki) is nice on other hand |
06:17 | <Pikka> | it doesn't have enough 120-passenger coaches for some people :) |
06:17 | <drac_boy> | pikka heh it wasn't that :) |
06:17 | <Fori> | Can you recommend another then, drac? |
06:17 | <andythenorth> | well bother me |
06:17 | <andythenorth> | there is an eels grf |
06:17 | <Fori> | As we said ^^ |
06:18 | <drac_boy> | pikka you want know why or not that bothered? |
06:18 | <Fori> | Pikka? Is aviators balanced for 1/4? |
06:18 | <andythenorth> | I suspect it's not FIRS compatible :O |
06:18 | <CIA-1> | OpenTTD: frosch * r24107 /trunk/src/industry_cmd.cpp: -Fix [FS#5143] (r3181): Glass-sprite of bubble-generator was not drawn anymore for completely constructed tiles. |
06:18 | <Rubidium> | frosch123: yeah, that's tron's style |
06:18 | <Pikka> | sure drac_boy |
06:18 | <drac_boy> | fori hm well do you want to actually know what I like? :) |
06:18 | <Fori> | Yeah. |
06:18 | <Rubidium> | also committing such stuff at moments you can't really use it |
06:18 | <Pikka> | Fori; the running costs will be reduced at 1/4, but it's still not really recommended. There are plenty of aircraft in av8 which travel at less than 200mph, and they're very slow at 1/4. :) |
06:19 | <Rubidium> | out of the blue after someone else's patchset was reviewed, but before everything was committed |
06:19 | <andythenorth> | there is a cargo graphic for eels too :) |
06:19 | <Fori> | So what would you say? Which setting it's best balanced for? |
06:19 | <Rubidium> | ofcourse breaking the patch set |
06:19 | <drac_boy> | pikka its the train capacity in relation to length.. I'm just the kind to run short or medium train once in a while and ukrs just never works well because it seem to have to be long semi-frequent trains on the contrast which kinda throws the mostly-single rail routes off balance |
06:19 | <Pikka> | 1/1 Fori |
06:19 | <Fori> | Really? |
06:19 | <Fori> | Alright. |
06:20 | <Fori> | Do you like the Word airliners set? Since it's like the heir of your set, isnt it? |
06:20 | <Pikka> | capacity/length in UKRS2 is fairly similar to the vanilla vehicles, drac_boy |
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06:21 | <Fori> | Misclicked...^^ |
06:21 | <drac_boy> | fori for temperate it would be dbsetxl+germanrv+newships ... or japset+newrv+newships ... arctic is a bit of indecision yet but its arcticset(different from dbsetxl)+germanrv+newships or oldcanset+3.5lv+newships |
06:22 | <Fori> | Btw I responded to your whisper. |
06:22 | <Fori> | Thanks. |
06:22 | <Fori> | Are those compatible with FIRS /EC? |
06:22 | <Fori> | ESC. |
06:22 | <Fori> | ... |
06:23 | <drac_boy> | pikka yeah well I have a 96 tonnes coal mine and a long spinely (spelling?) route to the powerstation which I usually only have two trains each made up of one branch locomotive and just 3-5 wagons |
06:23 | <drac_boy> | with ukrs it has to become a mildly heavy train with 8+ tiles long platforms so, I guess to our own gameplay styles and habits :) |
06:24 | <drac_boy> | fori dbsetxl has a newcargo patch grf so it should work I recall |
06:24 | <drac_boy> | and canset/japset already supports it I think |
06:24 | <Fori> | Are all of those available through Bananasß |
06:24 | <drac_boy> | I have no idea, I always use the real source which at least gives me the readme to reference to :P |
06:24 | <drac_boy> | sorry ;) |
06:24 | <Fori> | k |
06:25 | <Fori> | It's just that it's more complicated to deliver it to friends ^^ |
06:25 | <drac_boy> | well fori I think its easier especially with the extra files given but to our own |
06:25 | <drac_boy> | I'm not planning to allow banana uploading for a while but I'm not too certain yet, we'll just have to see in a few months |
06:26 | <Fori> | Oh, wait, which is your set? |
06:26 | <andythenorth> | hmm |
06:26 | <andythenorth> | small truck body |
06:26 | <andythenorth> | http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/2787/trailer-0_2-body_tipping_4px-light_grey-3_8-bulk-corn_yellow.png |
06:27 | <Eddi|zuHause> | hm... the closest i got to a solution: currently, you check "powered(A,B) or powered(B,A)". this should be extended to "powered(*,A) subset powered(*,B)" |
06:27 | <drac_boy> | andythenorth if thats meant to be a light 2-axle truck I don't see anything wrong with the sprites :) |
06:28 | <andythenorth> | most trucks are only about 5/8 long |
06:28 | <drac_boy> | just insert some more length in the middle to get a 3-axle truck version |
06:28 | <Eddi|zuHause> | (in case both powered(A,B) and powered(B,A)) |
06:28 | <drac_boy> | and maybe just a little bit longer again to make it a trailer instead |
06:28 | <andythenorth> | that is the 3-axle version ;) |
06:28 | <drac_boy> | andythenorth umm its a bit too short then :) |
06:28 | <andythenorth> | not really |
06:28 | <drac_boy> | that amount of grain looks too easy on 2 axles even for wooden bridges |
06:28 | <andythenorth> | trucks are small |
06:29 | <drac_boy> | hmm might be better if I saw it with the body drawn with it then perhaps? |
06:31 | <drac_boy> | but andythenorth the only one minor complain I could suggest would be to have a thin tarp covering the load in the bottommost sprites row. unless they don't always do that over there? |
06:33 | <Fori> | 1.2.0 supports different newGRF folders in Data, does it? |
06:33 | <andythenorth> | http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/2788/truck.png |
06:33 | <drac_boy> | fori its always had, the only difference is setting it in the newgrf options before starting a new map :) |
06:34 | <Fori> | Ah... Cool. |
06:34 | <Fori> | To be honest I've been putting em in content download all the time... |
06:34 | <drac_boy> | andythenorth hmm now that I see the cab I wonder if you drew the boxes a little too high height-wise? I dunno what kind of sizing you want tho so I'll leave that to you |
06:34 | <Fori> | But nvm me plz :D |
06:35 | <Pikka> | hmm andy |
06:35 | <andythenorth> | I'll teach the pixel generator to draw 3px high bodies :) |
06:35 | <Pikka> | I'm not sure it needs two rear axles either :) |
06:35 | <drac_boy> | andythenorth this being from someone who always see dump body being almost same height as a daycab (or non-sleeper) cab roof |
06:35 | <Fori> | Can I turn off that last two zoom steps? |
06:35 | <drac_boy> | pikka heh I had thought it should had been 2-axle for the small box size. go figure :) |
06:37 | * | andythenorth shrug |
06:37 | <andythenorth> | wheels are too big |
06:37 | <andythenorth> | if we're sizing relative to UKRS :P |
06:38 | <andythenorth> | wheels should be 1px, not 3px :P |
06:39 | <drac_boy> | btw pikka I found something yesterday, uk had a 2ft5inch gauge railway that actually had a few transporters. probably was the only one of its kind in uk I imagine |
06:39 | <Pikka> | :) |
06:39 | <Pikka> | well, it's all the look, accurate scaling is not required |
06:41 | <andythenorth> | http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/2789/truck_smaller.png |
06:41 | * | andythenorth is unconvinced by smaller wheels |
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06:41 | <Pikka> | yup |
06:41 | <andythenorth> | that's a small day cab, not a sleeper btw |
06:41 | <andythenorth> | so the cab should look relatively small |
06:41 | <Pikka> | I think the horizontal views need a hub and a tyre |
06:41 | <Pikka> | the diagonal views can be all tyre |
06:43 | <andythenorth> | +1 |
06:44 | <drac_boy> | hm I keep thinking about this for the second day now, what does anyone think of enabling transporters ingame? it could trade off the slower top speed for higher capacity compared to native wagons |
06:44 | <andythenorth> | http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/2790/truck_4_axle.png |
06:45 | <Pikka> | octopods |
06:45 | <andythenorth> | drac_boy: real transporters? |
06:45 | <Pikka> | I'ma draw some of them :) |
06:45 | <andythenorth> | drac_boy vehicles in vehicles? |
06:45 | <TinoDidriksen> | Star Trek transporters. |
06:45 | * | andythenorth generates tank body |
06:45 | <drac_boy> | andythenorth actually http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transporter_wagon |
06:46 | <Pikka> | pew pew |
06:46 | <andythenorth> | I know what you mean ;) |
06:46 | <andythenorth> | I just wonder how you would implement them |
06:46 | <drac_boy> | well just draw it as always having the wagon on top all the times :) |
06:47 | <andythenorth> | 'real' transporters is same problem class as vehicle ferries etc |
06:47 | <drac_boy> | and imagine that the standard gauge railroad (that is if you don't have any in first place) is 'just a few kilometers off the map' |
06:49 | <drac_boy> | andythenorth at least boats exist as foot ferries so I don't care too much for them :) |
06:49 | <oskari89> | CSDSet had 40 px long wagons, are they hard to code? |
06:50 | <oskari89> | Would allow much more detail: http://www.tt-forums.net/download/file.php?id=110908 |
06:54 | <andythenorth> | http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/2791/truck_4_axle_tank.png |
06:55 | <Pikka> | very shiny :) |
06:56 | <andythenorth> | I might teach pixa to composite the truck and the body |
06:56 | <V453000> | looks cute andy |
06:56 | <andythenorth> | then [pikka] can redraw the trucks later :P |
06:57 | <andythenorth> | for [reasons] all truck cabs are multiples of 4px |
06:57 | <andythenorth> | :) |
06:59 | <V453000> | :D |
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07:03 | <Pikka> | hmm |
07:03 | <Pikka> | the tram u-turns |
07:03 | <Pikka> | let's get rid of them :D |
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07:04 | <andythenorth> | they are a gameplay PITA |
07:04 | <Pikka> | yes |
07:04 | <Pikka> | and "unrealistic" |
07:04 | <andythenorth> | also...sometimes a tram seems to turn on a non-U anyway? |
07:05 | <Pikka> | and getting rid of them makes the spec easier ;) |
07:05 | * | drac_boy prefers trams to rvs |
07:05 | <andythenorth> | the behaviour seems non-deterministic although it must be :P |
07:05 | <andythenorth> | also...in towns....finding a tile for the u-turn often isn't that easy |
07:06 | <andythenorth> | so the space gain is...not much |
07:06 | * | andythenorth waits for eddi's "state machine" auto-responder to kick in ;) |
07:10 | <andythenorth> | Pikka: got wiki yet? |
07:10 | <Pikka> | nearly |
07:10 | * | andythenorth browses |
07:10 | * | andythenorth suspects Pikka actually wants roadtypes for nefarious space-based reasons |
07:11 | <Pikka> | ew |
07:11 | <drac_boy> | heh |
07:13 | <Eddi|zuHause> | trams need proper multi-tile turning loops!! |
07:13 | <drac_boy> | I don't think so |
07:13 | <Pikka> | well |
07:13 | <Pikka> | you can build those |
07:13 | <Eddi|zuHause> | and there are trams that don't need u-turns |
07:13 | <Pikka> | :) |
07:13 | <Pikka> | yes |
07:13 | <drac_boy> | the problem is the scale.. eg one tile should be at least 3-4 lanes wide and have more sidewalk |
07:13 | <Pikka> | but the closest you can get to that now is to build a depot and have it drive in and out :) |
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07:13 | <drac_boy> | but as the limit is...you only get 2 lanes with just a bit of sidewalk but not much |
07:14 | <Eddi|zuHause> | simcity-style avenues (with and without tram in the middle) |
07:15 | <andythenorth> | allow roadtypes to specify paths for vehicles? |
07:15 | <andythenorth> | sounds like newports :P |
07:15 | <V453000> | the scale realism is probably the most ridiculous of all discussions :D |
07:15 | <Eddi|zuHause> | yes, it does :) |
07:15 | <Eddi|zuHause> | V453000: where did you read "scale" here? |
07:16 | <drac_boy> | V453000 heh its why I'm doing everything in a bit different scale (which also means new buildings to match the vehicles too..meh) for my set |
07:16 | <V453000> | with the tran tracks |
07:16 | <V453000> | m |
07:16 | <andythenorth> | drac_boy: are you doing On30 or something? |
07:17 | <drac_boy> | andythenorth I dunno, I mean it could be just about anything from 1:1 to 1:400 in the game :p |
07:17 | <drac_boy> | heh |
07:18 | <drac_boy> | although I guess that if you wanted to duplicate my set onto an actual model layout I would think your most inexpensive option could be HOm |
07:19 | <Pikka> | http://users.tt-forums.net/pikka/wiki/index.php?title=Some_Other_Road_Types_Definition andythenorth |
07:19 | <Pikka> | simple, it's mostly railtypes :) |
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07:23 | <andythenorth> | should we make a reference grf? |
07:23 | <Pikka> | almost certainly |
07:23 | * | andythenorth looks at the new props |
07:23 | <Eddi|zuHause> | Pikka: how does your roadtype flags mix with newgrf road stations? |
07:24 | <drac_boy> | hmm this reminds me of something else.. |
07:24 | <andythenorth> | hmm |
07:24 | <Pikka> | oh |
07:24 | <andythenorth> | one roadtype simplifies catenary drawing too |
07:24 | <Pikka> | I forgot to put the road stations in. :) |
07:24 | <drac_boy> | if your trains need specific track type would it be better to bundle it within the same grf or not so much? |
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07:26 | <Fori> | Some dev of WAS in here ? ^^ |
07:28 | <andythenorth> | hmm |
07:28 | * | andythenorth ponders animated catenary for roadtypes |
07:28 | <andythenorth> | [ropeways] :P |
07:28 | <andythenorth> | anyway.... |
07:28 | * | Fori is looking for some good airliners set because high doesn't like the two futuristic planes of Pikka.... |
07:29 | <andythenorth> | so HEQS bulldozer might prefer to avoid roads with a minimum speed limits :P |
07:29 | <V453000> | ropeways with monkeys! |
07:29 | <Pikka> | yes. no bulldozers on the highway |
07:29 | <Pikka> | unless it's the only way |
07:29 | <Pikka> | it will just add a big number to the pathfinder penalty perhaps. |
07:29 | <drac_boy> | andythenorth take programmable rail signals and redraw them as 'obvious' road signposts instead .... and there, problem solved :) |
07:29 | <andythenorth> | min. speed limit is better for gameplay than highly restricted compatibility |
07:29 | <drac_boy> | I would had program it as "speed under 40 no go" |
07:30 | <Pikka> | yep |
07:30 | <andythenorth> | if compatibility is too limited, crossings are a nightmare |
07:30 | <Pikka> | build a bridge and get over it, I say |
07:30 | <Pikka> | there, added loading bays to the action 3 |
07:30 | <Fori> | Will openTTD update newGRFs when a new release is on bananas? |
07:31 | <oskari89> | Nope. |
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07:35 | <drac_boy> | so track into grf or not? |
07:37 | <Pikka> | hmm, actually |
07:37 | <Fori> | Andy? |
07:37 | <Pikka> | no, never mind :) |
07:40 | <Pikka> | so what do you think andy, eddi, what's missing? :) |
07:41 | <Eddi|zuHause> | Pikka: needs some thinking... |
07:43 | <Eddi|zuHause> | Pikka: certainly the tractive effort multiplier should be different for trams and roadvehicles |
07:43 | <Pikka> | hmm |
07:44 | <Pikka> | I wouldn't have thought tramtracks + a roadtype with significantly off TE would be likely? |
07:44 | <Pikka> | also, trams are roadvehicles. ;) |
07:44 | * | drac_boy treats it as rails :) |
07:46 | <Eddi|zuHause> | Pikka: anyway, the most obvious critique point of one-roadtype-per-tile is crossings. how do you want to represent a tram-with-road crossing a normal road, without drawing excessive tram bits? |
07:46 | <Pikka> | in the same we we represent an electrified railway crossing a non-electrified railway without drawing excessive electrification bits |
07:46 | <Pikka> | not at all :) |
07:46 | <Eddi|zuHause> | Pikka: that's a big hack |
07:47 | <Eddi|zuHause> | i know. i wrote it... |
07:47 | <drac_boy> | eddi and what if it came to three? I mean a road-shared tramrail crossing standard rails :p |
07:47 | <Pikka> | well, I was thinking more 3rd rail |
07:47 | <Pikka> | where we don't even try |
07:47 | <Eddi|zuHause> | yes |
07:47 | <Eddi|zuHause> | because it was implemented before railtypes |
07:48 | <Pikka> | yes |
07:48 | <drac_boy> | pikka actually if you need a 3rd rail road crossing, just ask japan. they do have at least two existances of that |
07:48 | <drac_boy> | bit complex thing...the third rail basically fold out of way unenergized then the gates opens to let cars through |
07:48 | <Pikka> | but if we'd waited until it was resolved before implementing railtypes, we wouldn't have railtypes |
07:48 | <drac_boy> | but at least for the game you don't have to draw that animation |
07:48 | <Fori> | Is it designed that if I enable the HEQS I still have a lot of vanilla vehicles? |
07:49 | * | drac_boy runs a 300 tonnes tram at 49km/h into fori? |
07:49 | <drac_boy> | heh heh |
07:49 | <Eddi|zuHause> | Pikka: the only way i can see one-roadtype-per-tile working is with multi-layer tiles like michi_cc's patch. but then you're back to the layering troubles again |
07:50 | <drac_boy> | eddi the only one thing I currently hate about one-railtype-per-tile in infra sharing atm is....when you have little space to work with and the neighbouring diagonal track is of a different type from yours :-s oh well no simple solution for that one I guess |
07:50 | <Pikka> | performance issues are too much if we query the roadtype on neighbouring tiles? |
07:51 | <Eddi|zuHause> | Pikka: same discussion as with railtypes |
07:51 | <Eddi|zuHause> | Pikka: i think it's not, but your decision space may explode |
07:51 | <Fori> | drac :( |
07:51 | <drac_boy> | at least I never cared for it in my usual singleplay games (which is the patch instead heh) because I know its always only one rail instead of having to share a second one with someone else :) |
07:53 | <Eddi|zuHause> | Pikka: but imho the 3rd rail should be part of the trackbase, not the track. which may make the decision chain more difficult |
07:54 | <drac_boy> | eddi don't ask about LUL trains..you'll be talking about a 4th rail :p |
07:54 | <drac_boy> | heh |
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07:58 | <Pikka> | hmm |
07:58 | <Pikka> | I'll have a go |
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07:59 | <andythenorth> | just draw excessive tram tracks :P |
08:00 | <andythenorth> | sure, it will look ugly |
08:00 | <andythenorth> | [shrug] |
08:00 | <drac_boy> | heh |
08:01 | <Pikka> | yes |
08:01 | <andythenorth> | but it solves 2 problems |
08:01 | <andythenorth> | (1) no worries about layering |
08:01 | <andythenorth> | (2) it makes roadtypes possible, instead of a theoretical discussion waiting for n other things |
08:02 | <andythenorth> | "we are not Steve Jobs" |
08:02 | <Pikka> | yes |
08:04 | <andythenorth> | if we get multi-layer tiles, use those bits to cache what's on neighbouring tiles, then write varaction 2 for drawing xyz |
08:04 | <andythenorth> | that's 'enhancement' |
08:04 | <Pikka> | multi-layer tiles are for sissies |
08:04 | <andythenorth> | tile-based storage :P |
08:05 | <andythenorth> | everything would be better if it had storage |
08:05 | <andythenorth> | hmm |
08:05 | <andythenorth> | what does that roadworks counter bit do? |
08:09 | * | andythenorth wonders if we can do something ugly, like set 'neighbouring tile has compatible type' in spare bits |
08:09 | <Pikka> | nope |
08:09 | <Pikka> | gotta test for the whole roadtype D; |
08:09 | <andythenorth> | if there's only one type per tile, do we have a surfeit of bits? |
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08:11 | * | andythenorth wonders if we can test for the whole roadtype |
08:11 | <andythenorth> | cache it |
08:12 | <andythenorth> | invalidate neighbouring tiles' caches when changing the roadtype on a tile |
08:12 | <Pikka> | when do you update the cache? |
08:12 | <Pikka> | yes |
08:12 | <Pikka> | that would probably be the way to go |
08:12 | <andythenorth> | it will have some odd cases I think |
08:12 | * | andythenorth shrug |
08:14 | <andythenorth> | hmmm...the alternative of letting newgrf author control what is drawn by querying neighbouring tiles is mildly terrifying |
08:14 | <andythenorth> | for several reasons |
08:14 | <Pikka> | is it? |
08:14 | * | Pikka does it now |
08:15 | <andythenorth> | do you get the type label? |
08:15 | <andythenorth> | and do you have a big tree of 'if red then blue' type stuff? |
08:15 | <Pikka> | I'm thinking IDs from a rail type table |
08:15 | <Pikka> | and yes you do |
08:15 | <andythenorth> | ugh |
08:15 | <Pikka> | it's perfectly managable. |
08:16 | * | andythenorth supposes worse things happen |
08:16 | <andythenorth> | at sea |
08:16 | <andythenorth> | for example |
08:17 | <andythenorth> | Pikka: snow? |
08:17 | <Pikka> | what about it? |
08:17 | <andythenorth> | is actually important |
08:17 | <andythenorth> | we need snow :P |
08:17 | <Pikka> | well, there's an above the snowline var...? |
08:17 | <andythenorth> | var 40 |
08:18 | <Pikka> | you want a callback for TE multiplier I suppose? |
08:18 | <andythenorth> | prop 15 is a prop? |
08:18 | <andythenorth> | yes...cb |
08:19 | <andythenorth> | and a bit for 'has a snowplough been by recently' :P |
08:19 | <andythenorth> | reuse the roadworks counter for that |
08:20 | <andythenorth> | new cb |
08:20 | <andythenorth> | 'vehicle is leaving tile' |
08:20 | <andythenorth> | return values: 0, 1 |
08:20 | <drac_boy> | andythenorth why snowplough seriously? :p |
08:20 | <andythenorth> | sets the roadworks counter :P |
08:21 | <andythenorth> | drac_boy I have to explain? :o |
08:21 | <andythenorth> | it's not obviously just neat? |
08:21 | <drac_boy> | andythenorth explain that to someone who just wants to run one or few timber trucks to the forest in arctic map in August ;) |
08:22 | <andythenorth> | shrug |
08:22 | <andythenorth> | snow is snow |
08:22 | <Eddi|zuHause> | andythenorth: callbacks for roadtypes are probably crazy |
08:22 | <andythenorth> | if it's on your road, you go slower |
08:22 | <andythenorth> | Eddi|zuHause: of course :) |
08:23 | <andythenorth> | with a busy tile, the bits might flip on / off a lot :P |
08:23 | <andythenorth> | hmm |
08:24 | <andythenorth> | ho |
08:24 | <drac_boy> | andythenorth if you seriously want to introduce snow onto roads then at least introduce lower speed and slight higher runcost with having chains on :P |
08:24 | <andythenorth> | roadworks uses effect vehicles |
08:25 | <drac_boy> | heh |
08:25 | * | andythenorth can't figure out how the roadworks counter actually works |
08:25 | <andythenorth> | IncreaseRoadWorksCounter looks relevant |
08:26 | <drac_boy> | andythenorth I had always wondered how to enable a limited few weather effect to rails without making it too complex tho..and so far I dunno yet |
08:27 | <drac_boy> | would be interesting for certain locomotives that have very light traction axle weights .. they'll have a bit of problem with rain-heavy months |
08:27 | <drac_boy> | and thats just one of the few 'issues' a player might have seen |
08:28 | * | andythenorth might be having a significant brain failure |
08:28 | <drac_boy> | at least that uk signal sim (forgot the name, never played it much) actually has weathers factored into its timetabling |
08:28 | <andythenorth> | oh |
08:28 | <drac_boy> | eg if its raining a lot the trains would be slower to accerlate |
08:28 | <andythenorth> | there are roadworks *bits* |
08:28 | <andythenorth> | not a roadworks bit |
08:28 | <@Alberth> | big boss Mr. T.Ycoon does not care about rain |
08:29 | <drac_boy> | alberth he would when he finds out that he ordered the wrong kind of locomotives to work the line when they kept running late :) |
08:29 | * | andythenorth was a little bit 'wtf' about how 0-15 can be stored in one bit |
08:29 | <andythenorth> | but we have the whole of m4 |
08:29 | <@Alberth> | drac_boy: he fires the huy doing the planning :p |
08:29 | <@Alberth> | *guy |
08:29 | <andythenorth> | surely m4 is open to creative abuse for roadtypes.... |
08:29 | <drac_boy> | alberth then he's still back to square one :p |
08:30 | <@Alberth> | andythenorth: sounds like a british motorway :p |
08:30 | * | andythenorth will be on the m4 shortly |
08:30 | * | andythenorth is right next to the m4 right now |
08:30 | <andythenorth> | literally |
08:30 | <andythenorth> | and there will be roadworks |
08:30 | <@Alberth> | :) |
08:30 | <drac_boy> | alberth and to be honest many of the real europe rails are clueless these years. I mean france used to have a few working snowplow wagons and at least one rotary but in the last few years they only had one or two plows left and the rotary all scrapped. and they wonder why a lot of passenger trains were trapped stuck :) |
08:32 | <@Alberth> | oh, the problem in the canal tunnel was much more fun, did you know snow melts in a tunnel ? :D |
08:32 | <drac_boy> | even eurotunnel's quote of "unprecident weather" was quickly shot down by reasonably-thinking news sources... there really was nothing unprecident about it, the only thing unprecident was the lack of train maintenance :p |
08:33 | <drac_boy> | and its not just that but one of the thing that I've noticed a lot was that when a new electric locomotive replaces an old 1960-1980s one train reliability always seem to be worser during bad weathers even during the summer |
08:33 | <drac_boy> | the older one had more stern steel in them is one way to put it :) |
08:35 | <CIA-1> | OpenTTD: frosch * r24108 /trunk/src/ (ai/ai_core.cpp ai/ai_instance.cpp game/game_core.cpp): -Fix [FS#5142]: When starting GS or AI, always use the settings of the game, not the new-game settings. |
08:35 | <andythenorth> | so... |
08:36 | <andythenorth> | is it a bad idea to have a cb that runs every time a (lead) vehicle leaves a tile? |
08:36 | <@peter1138> | we have that |
08:37 | <@peter1138> | or maybe it's only when the railtype changes |
08:37 | * | andythenorth visits spec |
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08:38 | <andythenorth> | it's probably cb36? |
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08:39 | <andythenorth> | my idea was a cb for the tile, rather than the vehicle |
08:39 | <andythenorth> | it allows resetting of (road) m4 bits only |
08:39 | <andythenorth> | or something like that |
08:42 | <andythenorth> | abusable for whatever creative purposes authors think of, with no rules, and no attempt at labels or any other crap |
08:42 | * | andythenorth would use it for snow :P |
08:43 | <andythenorth> | it would be pretty |
08:44 | <andythenorth> | Pikka: idea...draw snow over the tram tracks. Graphics problem solved :P |
08:44 | <Pikka> | yes |
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08:45 | <andythenorth> | also |
08:45 | <andythenorth> | tram tracks are very small |
08:45 | <andythenorth> | so just don't draw them :P |
08:48 | <Pikka> | http://users.tt-forums.net/pikka/wiki/index.php?title=Talk:Some_Other_Road_Types_Definition |
08:48 | <Pikka> | there you are. too easy :) |
08:52 | <Pikka> | I've got some things the wrong way round, now I look at it |
08:52 | <Pikka> | but that's basically what it would look like. not too much trouble at all |
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08:52 | <Pikka> | and a maximum of 4 branches, so hopefully not too slow if the vars are cached. |
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08:53 | <andythenorth> | tidy |
08:53 | <Pikka> | and if people don't go mad and coat the map with tramtrack intersections :) |
08:53 | <andythenorth> | surely that's massively cache-friendly? |
08:53 | <frosch123> | cache for roadtypes? haha :p won't hapen |
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08:54 | <frosch123> | there are no caches for stuff that belongs to tiles |
08:54 | <Pikka> | okay |
08:54 | <Pikka> | but even so |
08:55 | <frosch123> | anyway, you do not need any cache for stuff that is only needed for drawing |
08:55 | <andythenorth> | also...caching is invalid if the VA 2 chain contains bonkers madness |
08:55 | <Pikka> | :) |
08:55 | <andythenorth> | like date checks |
08:55 | <Pikka> | well |
08:55 | <andythenorth> | and snow |
08:55 | <andythenorth> | did I mention snow? |
08:55 | <Pikka> | snow business like show business |
08:55 | <andythenorth> | Pikka: on a 2048x2048 map, does this kill my battery? |
08:55 | <andythenorth> | there are a lot of roadcrossings in a game.... |
08:56 | <Pikka> | well |
08:56 | <Pikka> | you would only use this for tram tracks |
08:56 | <frosch123> | andythenorth: do houses kill your game? |
08:56 | <Pikka> | using it for every road crossing would be silly |
08:56 | <frosch123> | s/game/battery/ |
08:57 | <andythenorth> | Pikka: 'would' <- enforced how? :) |
08:58 | <andythenorth> | what if i use it on every tile to choose to draw, for example, animated billboards 17 tiles long :P |
08:58 | <Pikka> | enforced by your common sense :) |
08:58 | <frosch123> | there are also people reaching the 64k limit for objects :p |
08:58 | <Pikka> | I may have made a terrible mistake... |
08:59 | * | andythenorth has driving to do |
08:59 | <andythenorth> | and will bbl |
08:59 | <andythenorth> | maybe with more trucks |
08:59 | <andythenorth> | or not |
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08:59 | <Pikka> | okay, seeya! |
08:59 | * | Pikka adds the proposed variables to the spec |
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09:08 | <CIA-1> | OpenTTD: michi_cc * r24109 /trunk/src/debug.cpp: -Fix (r24099): Warning from not using size_t to store the return value of strlen(). |
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09:49 | <Eddi|zuHause> | "road layers" suggestion: [for several roadtypes on a tile] each roadtype consists of these layers [ground tile], road base, road surface, road overlay, pavement, catenary. of each layer, all roadtypes will be drawn in a random but deterministic order, so if it is not transparent, one roadtype will "win" across the whole map. standard road will have transparent road overlay and catenary, standard tram will have transparent road surface |
09:50 | <Eddi|zuHause> | so for order of (road,tram) the drawing order will be: ground, road base, tram base, road surface, (tram surface), (road overlay), tram overlay, (road catenary), tram catenary |
09:51 | <Eddi|zuHause> | drawing order may be defined by some priority value, or the order of action3 |
09:52 | <Eddi|zuHause> | somewhere in there the pavement is missing |
09:53 | <Eddi|zuHause> | "base" and "overlay" will be composed of several sprites consisting of the center and the 4 road bits |
09:53 | <Eddi|zuHause> | center being one of "straigt", "curve"(x4), "t-cross"(x4), "cross" |
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09:54 | <Eddi|zuHause> | i meant "surface", not "base" |
09:55 | <Eddi|zuHause> | "pipelines" could then consist of "base" and "catenary" only |
09:55 | <Pikka> | mine's certainly simpler :) |
09:55 | <Eddi|zuHause> | Pikka: but i fear it's not flexible enough |
09:55 | <Pikka> | it's roadtypes |
09:55 | <Pikka> | you shouldn't be trying to make pipelines with it |
09:56 | <Eddi|zuHause> | Pikka: i don't. but it's a neat thing if it can be done |
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10:00 | <Pikka> | also, I'm still not sure "several roadtypes on a tile" makes sense. |
10:00 | <Pikka> | it still just seems like you're making a special case for trams |
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10:00 | <Pikka> | which I'm not sure is desirable from a set design or gameplay point of view, and I also think is holding back anyone getting stuck in and actually creating a patch |
10:00 | <Pikka> | simple is good :) |
10:01 | <Eddi|zuHause> | "simple" isn't good enough if you remove existing functionality in the process |
10:02 | <Eddi|zuHause> | and i also said previously: if you separate things strictly between "road"-types and "tram"-types, then you have a problem fitting in trolleybus |
10:03 | <Eddi|zuHause> | you can make trolleybus tram-like, but then you cannot combine both on a tile (which may be realistic, though) |
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10:06 | <Pikka> | how to cope with the existing trams is indeed a problem for my spec |
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10:06 | <Pikka> | hello andy |
10:06 | <andythenorth> | that was...rainy |
10:06 | <Pikka> | "how to cope with the existing trams is indeed a problem for my spec" |
10:07 | <andythenorth> | screw em |
10:07 | <Pikka> | yes |
10:07 | <andythenorth> | oh yeah, backwards compatibility :P |
10:07 | <Eddi|zuHause> | another problem with making trolleybus tram-like is enforcing a road underneath |
10:08 | <Pikka> | eddi: trolleybuses are silly vehicles which make even littler sense in TTD than they did in the real world |
10:08 | <Pikka> | also, with my spec there's no such thing as "tram-like", so I don't really understand what you're driving at |
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10:09 | * | andythenorth -> logs :P |
10:09 | <__ln__> | well they are being used in the real world |
10:09 | <Zuu> | though you got a tram-like behaviour bit (no overtake + U-turn) |
10:10 | <Pikka> | so don't set that for trolleybuses? |
10:11 | * | andythenorth misses why trolleybus is a problem? |
10:11 | <andythenorth> | it's just a bus, with power |
10:11 | <Pikka> | so do I |
10:11 | <Eddi|zuHause> | trolleybusses can overtake, but they'll have some trouble with U-turns :) |
10:11 | <Pikka> | anyway, the existing trams are a problem |
10:11 | <andythenorth> | roadtypes can provide power right? |
10:12 | <Pikka> | yes |
10:12 | <andythenorth> | so where's the issue? |
10:12 | <Pikka> | eddi: "realism" |
10:12 | <andythenorth> | it's an electric bus |
10:12 | <Eddi|zuHause> | yes, but difference between "powered" and "compatible" is quite useless if you have no consists |
10:12 | <Pikka> | true! |
10:12 | <andythenorth> | hmm |
10:12 | <Pikka> | I guess we can lose one then. :P |
10:12 | * | andythenorth knows that Eddi|zuHause is nearly always right, but what's the issue? |
10:13 | <Eddi|zuHause> | the issues are lots and widespread :) |
10:13 | <andythenorth> | (1) specific to trolleybus |
10:14 | <Pikka> | trolleybuses can overtake but not u-turn, apparently. |
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10:14 | <andythenorth> | as in, 'they need a specific movement path'? |
10:14 | * | NGC3982 is in the mood for openttd |
10:14 | <Pikka> | also, trains can't magically turn around in stations, and ships can't pile up on top of each other at docks. I suggest we all stop playing openttd until it can perfectly realistically model the behaviour of every vehicle which has ever existed. :) |
10:15 | <NGC3982> | it has been a few months since |
10:15 | <andythenorth> | ships can't drive through each in RL |
10:15 | <Eddi|zuHause> | Pikka: one step at a time :p |
10:15 | <Pikka> | yes |
10:15 | <Pikka> | but let's not have the first step be trolleybuses |
10:16 | <andythenorth> | Eddi|zuHause: you're trying to prevent future discussions along lines 'of hysterical reasons' which point to this spec, here? |
10:17 | <Eddi|zuHause> | Pikka: my aim is pointing out future use-cases, and how the spec should be generic enough to cover them |
10:17 | <Zuu> | Well, there are trolleybusses (and trams) with batteries, so assume OpenTTD trolleybusses got some small batteries that allow them to make U-turns. :-) |
10:18 | <Zuu> | Problem solved. |
10:18 | <Pikka> | okay, so provide seperate flags for "can overtake" and "can u-turn", problem sorted. we can't make it generic enough to cover /everything/ |
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10:18 | <Pikka> | shall we try and incorporate vehicles which can travel cross-country? |
10:18 | <andythenorth> | yes please |
10:18 | <andythenorth> | and also amphibious |
10:18 | <andythenorth> | and flying cares |
10:18 | <andythenorth> | or even cars |
10:18 | <Pikka> | yes |
10:18 | <andythenorth> | http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-17626818 |
10:19 | * | andythenorth would be happier if newgrf wasn't held sacred |
10:19 | <Pikka> | $279,000 |
10:19 | <andythenorth> | i.e. rather than 'we will never break newgrf' <- which isn't true anyway |
10:19 | <Pikka> | lol |
10:19 | <Pikka> | eh |
10:19 | <andythenorth> | we say 'we might break newgrf under conditions xyz' |
10:19 | <Pikka> | it's not newgrf which is the problem this time |
10:19 | <Pikka> | it's the legacy tram system |
10:20 | <andythenorth> | and we can't lose that because....? |
10:20 | <andythenorth> | [game doesn't ship with trams anyway] |
10:20 | <Zuu> | 0.6 or 0.7 did right? |
10:21 | <Zuu> | possible only 0.6 as 0.7 got bananas. |
10:21 | <Pikka> | old savegames, andy |
10:22 | <andythenorth> | they break too :P |
10:22 | <Pikka> | andy, you going to buy one of those flying cars? |
10:22 | <andythenorth> | oh definitely |
10:22 | <andythenorth> | when we introduce $2 per newgrf on bananas |
10:22 | <Zuu> | But it neegs an airport to take off? |
10:23 | <Zuu> | needs* |
10:23 | <Pikka> | $279,000... you could buy a much better plane and a much better car and still have $200,000 left :) |
10:23 | <Zuu> | So it could be a part of the vehicles containing vehicles feature. |
10:23 | <andythenorth> | eh who cares, we'll be rich on newgrf earnings |
10:23 | <Pikka> | true |
10:23 | <andythenorth> | get roadtypes in quick, we can sell the roads grf |
10:23 | <andythenorth> | also, we can charge for 'updated' grfs when trunk breaks them |
10:23 | <Pikka> | yes, but first the trams issue |
10:23 | <andythenorth> | so trunk should break them a lot |
10:23 | <andythenorth> | so the trams issue is? |
10:24 | <andythenorth> | in plain english, using small words... |
10:24 | <Pikka> | replacing the existing, own-layer hacky trams with roadtype trams |
10:25 | <Pikka> | I guess we could retain the existing trams, and have a grf function to disable them... |
10:26 | <NGC3982> | how do i get a train to wait in a depot for x days? |
10:26 | <NGC3982> | i cant seem to get it right in the timetables |
10:26 | <Zuu> | you wait x days and then click to start it :-) |
10:26 | <Zuu> | eg, not possible to do automated. |
10:26 | <NGC3982> | ah, i see. |
10:26 | <andythenorth> | the tram issue is movement paths? Or graphics? Or type compatibility? or which? |
10:26 | <Zuu> | you could have a station nearby with the only puprose of having trains staying there for x days if you want. |
10:27 | <Zuu> | there is a no load-no unload order. |
10:27 | <Pikka> | andythenorth: at the moment, there are two layers of "road", "road" and "tram" |
10:28 | <Pikka> | we/I am proposing a spec with one layer of road. |
10:28 | <Pikka> | there is no way to translate the former to the latter when loading old savegames. |
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10:29 | <Pikka> | or at least no way that wouldn't be an inordinate amount of work :) |
10:29 | <Pikka> | for no benefit except converting old savegames |
10:29 | <andythenorth> | so those bits would just be lost |
10:30 | <NGC3982> | Zuu: i see. ill see what i can do :). |
10:30 | <Pikka> | so you load an old savegame and end up with trams just sitting in the middle of fields |
10:30 | <Pikka> | ? |
10:30 | <andythenorth> | hmm |
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10:30 | * | andythenorth has horrible idea |
10:30 | <andythenorth> | make road equivalent to tram |
10:30 | <andythenorth> | then you get a savegame where trams can go on any road :P |
10:31 | <Pikka> | although at the moment you can build tramtrack without road |
10:31 | <andythenorth> | convert that to road |
10:31 | <NGC3982> | Zuu: although, i think i will abandon the idea. http://i.imgur.com/KuPgv.png <- this is my setup. i thought id make the trains wait a bit on the return trip to the industry. though, i noticed that it might have bad implications on the industry rating. |
10:31 | <Pikka> | it could work, andy |
10:31 | <andythenorth> | Pikka: it's bonkers |
10:32 | <Pikka> | it's better than anything I've come up with so far :) |
10:32 | <andythenorth> | there is an alternative, which is to have ottd provide some types by default |
10:32 | <Pikka> | yes |
10:32 | <andythenorth> | e.g. road, tram, road+tram |
10:32 | <andythenorth> | then set all tiles appropriately when converting savegame |
10:32 | <Pikka> | this is the "inordinate amount of work" I was talking about :) |
10:32 | <andythenorth> | then look at the action 0 props for newgrf vehicles to determine compatibility :| |
10:34 | <Pikka> | well |
10:34 | <andythenorth> | or just break the badger |
10:34 | <Pikka> | "tram" is currently a flag |
10:34 | <Pikka> | there's no proper roadtype property |
10:34 | * | andythenorth wonders if there are other things it is desirable to break |
10:34 | <NGC3982> | trow your tv out the window |
10:34 | <andythenorth> | OpenTTD 2.0 could be the 'lots of things changed' edition |
10:34 | <Pikka> | so I think logically, just turning them into road vehicles and replacing all tram tracks with road would be the right thing to do :) |
10:34 | <NGC3982> | that might lead to some manly satisfaction. |
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10:36 | * | andythenorth thinks trading massive legacy breakage against a set of awesome features would be very worthwhile |
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10:36 | <Pikka> | yes |
10:36 | <Pikka> | but let's keep the breakage it to a minimum ;) |
10:36 | <Pikka> | -it |
10:36 | * | andythenorth is used to python |
10:37 | <andythenorth> | where hunting down legacy versions of python to run [some app] is common |
10:37 | <Fori> | What's openTTD coded in ? |
10:37 | <NGC3982> | cheeseburgers and mirc script. |
10:37 | <Fori> | Thanks for THAT kind response. |
10:38 | <NGC3982> | :) |
10:38 | <Fori> | I don't know why people are like that... But I think I won't understand it ever. |
10:38 | <andythenorth> | eels |
10:38 | <andythenorth> | openttd is (mostly) C++ |
10:38 | <Fori> | Thanks. |
10:39 | <andythenorth> | afaik, the AI is squirrel |
10:39 | <NGC3982> | Fori: im sorry, did i offend you? |
10:39 | <andythenorth> | and there might be some actual C somewhere |
10:39 | * | andythenorth is at the limits of his knowledge describing that much :P |
10:39 | <Fori> | NGC, nah, not really. I just get fucked up if people answer to honest question like that one with so stupid things. |
10:40 | <Fori> | Happens in a lot of IRC channel when people come in they don't know. |
10:40 | <Fori> | And I simply don't get the point of it. |
10:40 | <Fori> | Anyway, thanks andy. |
10:40 | <NGC3982> | Fori: i see. it was of course none of my intentions to be such a bastard :). |
10:41 | <Fori> | It's nothing with your answer specific. It's rather a general thing. |
10:41 | * | andythenorth thinks we should also break some newgrf disabling stuff |
10:41 | <Fori> | I'd rather have you telling me "I know but you could google". |
10:42 | <Fori> | Andy? Are you using any aircraft GRF? |
10:42 | <andythenorth> | Fori: I don't really play OpenTTD |
10:42 | <Fori> | Oh, so you only code for it? ^^ |
10:42 | <Fori> | Or paint sprites, or w/e? ^^ |
10:42 | <andythenorth> | mostly newgrf |
10:43 | <Fori> | That's what I ment, sorry. |
10:43 | <andythenorth> | I play about once a year |
10:43 | <andythenorth> | rest of the time I make feature requests here |
10:43 | <andythenorth> | and moan |
10:43 | <Fori> | Really? Where comes the ingame feedback from then? ^^ |
10:43 | <Fori> | NGC? Have you any recommendations of an aircraft GRF? |
10:44 | <andythenorth> | AV8 and GeneralAV8ion |
10:45 | <andythenorth> | otherwise PlaneSet or however it's called |
10:45 | <Fori> | Yeah, right. I've been using Pikka's aircraft since the first time I ever played openTTD |
10:45 | <NGC3982> | Fori: well, i havent really tried as many of them as one should, though - PikkaBird's 'Aviator Aircraft Set' is really well made. |
10:45 | <andythenorth> | but AV8 is better |
10:45 | <NGC3982> | (AV8 is the same grf). |
10:45 | <Fori> | It's balanced for 1/1, right? |
10:47 | <NGC3982> | hm, i wonder; im using a basic two-train circle system to get coal from a to b. as the trains move along with time, i notice that the original rating of 76% drops to 68%, without any changes in the trains movement. |
10:47 | <NGC3982> | how is that? |
10:47 | <NGC3982> | http://i.imgur.com/KuPgv.png |
10:48 | <Fori> | There's no train waiting to load? No statue? |
10:49 | <NGC3982> | no, not really, and no. no statue :). |
10:49 | <NGC3982> | does a town statue make a difference? |
10:49 | <Fori> | Yeah. |
10:50 | <Fori> | I just noticed that yesterday. |
10:50 | <Fori> | Looked it up in the game mechanics page of the Wiki |
10:50 | <Fori> | What's that timetable stuff? Where does it come from? |
10:51 | <NGC3982> | timetables can be used to make ..well, timetables for the trains. you find it in the orders windows, upper right. |
10:51 | <NGC3982> | Fori: ill read up on that statue thingy. |
10:51 | <Fori> | http://wiki.openttd.org/Game_mechanics#Station_rating |
10:52 | <NGC3982> | @A transport company may build a statue in honour of its owner. This will increase its ratings at stations in the area, and looks impressive to passers by.@ |
10:52 | <NGC3982> | \o/ |
10:52 | <NGC3982> | Fori: thank you. |
10:52 | <NGC3982> | i have two missions to complete, then. one is to change to faster trains, and the other to build a statue. |
10:53 | <NGC3982> | the problem is that the the adjacent town doesnt even have that opportunity yet. |
10:53 | <andythenorth> | Pikka: ship a default roadtypes grf with openttd, provides 'road, road+tram, tram' |
10:54 | <andythenorth> | extend compatibility to vehicles that don't have roadtype props set |
10:54 | <andythenorth> | based on type flag |
10:54 | <andythenorth> | convert when loading savegame |
10:54 | <andythenorth> | no backwards compatibility for the save |
10:55 | <andythenorth> | everything carries on working same as now, out of the box |
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10:58 | <Fori> | NGC: The problem should be your cash. |
10:58 | <Fori> | That the option is not there. |
10:58 | <@Alberth> | more precisely, the lack of cash :p |
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10:59 | <NGC3982> | Fori: hehe. |
10:59 | <NGC3982> | well, i cant decide what brings more money. |
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10:59 | <NGC3982> | http://i.imgur.com/uwcBJ.png |
10:59 | <NGC3982> | i changed the trains and made this |
11:00 | <NGC3982> | i noted a huge improvement in train profit, but a lower rating (and a small dip in coal production). |
11:01 | * | NGC3982 adds a train |
11:03 | <NGC3982> | ah, this was a fruitful experiment |
11:03 | <NGC3982> | adding a train to the setup didnt affect the rating at all. |
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11:07 | <Eddi|zuHause> | tiny map is tiny |
11:07 | <Eddi|zuHause> | adding/removing trains by itself doesn't change rating |
11:07 | <Eddi|zuHause> | "always a train at the station" improves rating |
11:07 | <Eddi|zuHause> | and trains newer than 2 years improve rating |
11:08 | <Eddi|zuHause> | and trains faster than 80km/h improve rating |
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11:09 | <Fori> | Do you actually use that timetable stuff NGC? I never did..^^ |
11:10 | <NGC3982> | barely |
11:10 | <Fori> | Btw NGC, you got some Windows updates waiting. |
11:10 | <NGC3982> | this is actually the first time i find use of it |
11:10 | <Fori> | k |
11:10 | <NGC3982> | im as far from an openttd pro as the googolplex is from infinity. |
11:11 | <Fori> | ^^ |
11:11 | <Fori> | I ain't pro. I don't even know if I'm good. |
11:11 | <Fori> | ^^ |
11:12 | * | NGC3982 surely isnt. |
11:12 | <NGC3982> | i have been playing it for years, and i still dont understand most of its functions |
11:13 | <NGC3982> | openttd is the starship enterprise of the game universe. it reveals new characters, even in the last season. |
11:14 | <Fori> | xD |
11:14 | <Fori> | Well. I'm afk for a bit playing a bit of "Agricola". |
11:15 | <Fori> | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agricola_%28board_game%29 |
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11:17 | <Zuu> | NGC3982: To improve your rating at Grenfingfield Mines, remove the waiting station and have the train load longer in Grenfingfield Mines instead. |
11:19 | <NGC3982> | i see |
11:19 | <NGC3982> | ill try it. |
11:19 | <Zuu> | In general you shouldn't need to use a waiting station. It was just the answer to your question on how to make a train wait for X days at some place. |
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11:23 | <Pikka> | andy: we could do that I suppose |
11:23 | <NGC3982> | Zuu: i see. |
11:23 | <Pikka> | she's pretty big job |
11:23 | <NGC3982> | Zuu: it worked briliantly. thank you :) |
11:26 | <andythenorth> | Pikka: or just break savegames :) |
11:26 | <andythenorth> | range of options then |
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11:28 | <Pikka> | yes... |
11:28 | <Pikka> | perhaps we should try and get the spec working, then worry about this? :) |
11:32 | <oskari89> | Finnish Railset tracking tables now have FIRS cargoes :) |
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11:34 | <NGC3982> | http://i.imgur.com/gXXcG.png |
11:35 | * | NGC3982 read "finnish rallyset" |
11:36 | <andythenorth> | Pikka: patchy patchy |
11:36 | <Pikka> | yes |
11:36 | <andythenorth> | do you plan to use any kind of repo or anything? |
11:36 | <Pikka> | well |
11:36 | <Pikka> | that's more your forte |
11:36 | <@orudge> | *forté |
11:37 | <andythenorth> | there's a very old roadtypes repo on the devzone |
11:37 | <Pikka> | would we be better off starting from scratch? |
11:37 | <andythenorth> | yup |
11:37 | <andythenorth> | that one is way behind trunk |
11:37 | <andythenorth> | planetmaker: any objection if I delete current roadtypes repo? Can't imagine it's any use |
11:38 | <Pikka> | orudge: forte |
11:38 | <andythenorth> | ach |
11:38 | <Pikka> | forty |
11:38 | <andythenorth> | for reviewing and stuff we probably have to use a queue |
11:38 | * | andythenorth is not the best at this :P |
11:40 | <andythenorth> | Pikka: last time I tried this I was using mercurial with the mq extension for patch queues |
11:40 | <andythenorth> | if I'd learnt it properly it would have made my life easier |
11:41 | <andythenorth> | but at the time I might have been better just making small commits + diffing from them |
11:41 | <@orudge> | Pikka: forte knoxe |
11:41 | <Pikka> | even so, you've had a lot more experience at it than I have, andythenorth |
11:41 | <andythenorth> | doing something this big without many small patches is probably insane |
11:41 | <andythenorth> | we'll never get reviewed |
11:41 | <Pikka> | there too, orudge |
11:41 | <Pikka> | I dunno |
11:42 | <Pikka> | we'll have to use undue influence |
11:42 | <andythenorth> | anyone care to advise the foolhardy? |
11:42 | <andythenorth> | Pikka: have you got mercurial? |
11:42 | <Pikka> | what small patches can we break it into, anyway? it's an all or nothing kind of deal |
11:42 | <Pikka> | nope |
11:42 | <andythenorth> | or I could learn git, but that way dragons lie |
11:43 | <andythenorth> | Pikka: there might be some obvious steps: savegame handling, newgrf loading, drawing to screen etc |
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11:43 | <andythenorth> | but I'm way out of my depth, surrounded by sharks :P |
11:44 | <andythenorth> | last time I managed to move one map bit, then got stuck handling savegames |
11:44 | <Pikka> | eh |
11:44 | <Digitalfox> | Hi Guys, been a couple of years since the last time I joined here :) |
11:44 | <Pikka> | I vote for the avagoyamug approach... it worked for the original tramtracks :) |
11:44 | <andythenorth> | well at least can we use a repo? not one massive diff :P |
11:45 | <Pikka> | yes, we can |
11:45 | <Pikka> | but like I said, you know much more about that sort of thing than I do |
11:45 | <andythenorth> | install hg then :) |
11:45 | <andythenorth> | or make me learn git |
11:45 | <andythenorth> | http://mercurial.selenic.com/ |
11:46 | <Pikka> | I don't know how to make you learn git, so okay |
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11:47 | <Digitalfox> | I have a silly question about Grfcodec 6.0.0, I'm doing grfcodec -d s.grf, and I'm receiving a error "expected more data during tile decoding for sprite 42", this a GRF from 2008 that I want to edit some train properties for my own game... It's still unedited so it's in it's original form... Am I doing something wrong on the options? |
11:48 | <andythenorth> | Rubidium what's a nice way to start a big patch? Checkout ottd and push it to a new repo? |
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11:50 | <supermop> | wouldn't any nice patches be small, andy? |
11:51 | <andythenorth> | not my wording :P |
11:51 | <andythenorth> | it might not be a nice patch |
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11:53 | <Zuu> | andythenorth: I would clone trunk and then have my patch as a patch queue. |
11:54 | <Zuu> | No need to commit I think |
11:54 | <NGC3982> | bah, i dont get iron ore mines |
11:54 | <Zuu> | just "hg qrefresh" to update your patches. |
11:54 | <NGC3982> | i cant seem to motivate large production |
11:55 | <NGC3982> | even with 70-72% ratings i only get like 30 tonnes a year. |
11:55 | <Zuu> | then "hp pull" and "hg update" to update to newer trunk versions. (I usually pop all patches before pulling from trunk) |
11:56 | <andythenorth> | Zuu: how do you share the patch queue? |
11:56 | <Zuu> | So far I've only published the patches as files on fs or forums. |
11:57 | <Zuu> | Not sure how one could share them as a repo. |
11:57 | <andythenorth> | might not be needed |
11:57 | <andythenorth> | but also, probably by arsing around pushing them into a different repo |
11:57 | <andythenorth> | which I don't want to do |
11:57 | <supermop> | are you taking roads by yourself? |
11:57 | <supermop> | *taking on |
11:57 | <andythenorth> | no pikka is |
11:57 | <andythenorth> | I am standing around holding tools |
11:57 | <Pikka> | D: |
11:57 | <Zuu> | if you name your patches with ".patch" in the name you give them in HG, the files in your .hg/patches folder will have propper .patch extension and you can just upload those. |
11:58 | <andythenorth> | Pikka: :) |
11:59 | <Pikka> | oh, I guess that would work for "historic" buildings... |
11:59 | <andythenorth> | my C++ is not great. How's yours? |
11:59 | <Pikka> | only let them build on january first :) |
11:59 | <Pikka> | my C++ is practically non-existant |
11:59 | <andythenorth> | april 1st |
11:59 | <andythenorth> | oh jolly good, that means we have no idea how hard this could be :) |
12:00 | <Pikka> | yup |
12:00 | <andythenorth> | knowing too much can slow you down |
12:00 | <Pikka> | we need stevenh really |
12:01 | <Pikka> | also, about 80% of what we want is railtypes, so we only need to do the other 20%. right? :) |
12:01 | <andythenorth> | right |
12:02 | <andythenorth> | a hg checkout of ottd is being very slow today |
12:02 | <andythenorth> | I want this one, right? http://hg.openttd.org/openttd/trunk.hg |
12:03 | <Zuu> | hg clone does fetch all historic changes too, not just the current state. So it is significantly slower than a svn checkout. |
12:04 | <Zuu> | But once you got one clone you can updaet it and do local clones of it to get boiler plates for new patches. |
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12:07 | <andythenorth> | Pikka: so you could do "hg clone http://hg.openttd.org/openttd/trunk.hg/ roadtypes" |
12:07 | <andythenorth> | as a starting point... |
12:07 | <Pikka> | I could, could I? |
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12:07 | <Pikka> | I guess I better install these tortoises and hgs first. actually I remember I did have this on my old machine way back when |
12:07 | <Pikka> | when we were working on something for ttdpatch... |
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12:30 | <supermop> | do you plan on changing the way one way roads form junctions? |
12:30 | <Pikka> | at the moment they don't, do they? |
12:30 | <supermop> | correct |
12:31 | <supermop> | but it would be nice to make corners with one way roads |
12:31 | <Pikka> | yes |
12:31 | <Pikka> | well, possibly then :) |
12:31 | <supermop> | currently an L requires you to switch back to regular road |
12:32 | <supermop> | even though there is no possibility for a truck to get turned around on it |
12:32 | <supermop> | also nice, would be a one way overlay on normal road |
12:33 | <supermop> | like a a one way (one track) tramway over regular two way street, the reverse of what you can do now by placing tram on one way road |
12:34 | <supermop> | one way tram would be pretty for balloon loops at end of line, but could be trouble in corners, intersection of normal street |
12:35 | <andythenorth> | tram will be removed ;) |
12:35 | <supermop> | meaning re-implimented differently by roadtype newgrf? |
12:36 | <Pikka> | that's the theory |
12:36 | <andythenorth> | Pikka: rather than removing tram U-turn, allow all vehicles to use those movement paths? |
12:36 | <supermop> | how many types will your spec allow? 16? |
12:37 | <andythenorth> | the turn-around behaviour of RVs is kind of tiresome currently |
12:37 | <Pikka> | they turn around at the end of a tile, it's not that bad? |
12:37 | <supermop> | i can see people not wanting a semi to u turn in the middle of a city street though |
12:37 | <supermop> | very tiresome when that happens irl |
12:38 | <andythenorth> | hmm |
12:38 | <andythenorth> | Pikka has a good point |
12:38 | <andythenorth> | why am I always building odd bits of tile in cities? |
12:38 | <supermop> | if you touch movement, it would be better to improve passing |
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12:39 | <supermop> | both for highways and for roadside stops |
12:39 | <andythenorth> | iirc, it's completely unrelated ;) |
12:39 | <supermop> | best not to touch it all all then i guess? |
12:40 | <andythenorth> | not as part of roadtypes indeed ;) |
12:42 | <supermop> | hmm |
12:42 | <supermop> | if a town built tramway, could a player drive trams on it? |
12:43 | <Pikka> | of course |
12:43 | <supermop> | you can drive busses on other players roads, why not their tramways? |
12:43 | <CornishPasty> | Isn't a tramway just a train track that can go over roads? |
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12:43 | <supermop> | so a road grf could allow a town to build tramway, |
12:44 | <Pikka> | yes |
12:44 | <Zuu> | CornishPasty: Depends on the detail level |
12:44 | <Pikka> | but towns full of tramways would be odd |
12:44 | <Zuu> | At some detail level you are right and on some other you are wrong. |
12:44 | <supermop> | i guess you'd end up with some stupid tracks but you could simulate a town building a tram system and contracting with a private company to operate it |
12:45 | <supermop> | in the game its more like a special road flag |
12:46 | <Zuu> | I didn't know that currently you can't run trams on opponent tramways. But if that is changed, something like wmDOT can make tram systems for you to run trams on. |
12:48 | <supermop> | if towns build tramways, there would need to be some way to keep them from simply filling every tile in the center of town with track and grand unions |
12:48 | <Pikka> | which there won't be |
12:48 | <supermop> | but a road grf could allow that at its own peril, shouldnt concern the road spec either way |
12:49 | <andythenorth> | that's what the spec says too |
12:49 | <andythenorth> | bit 7 of prop 10 |
12:49 | <supermop> | same with pedestrial street |
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12:50 | <supermop> | if you want your cities to close streets to traffic there shouldnt be a problem with that, so long as you are ok with losing the ability to provide bus service down town |
12:51 | <Pikka> | yes, except that kind of behaviour is beyond the simple stuff that towns do |
12:52 | <Pikka> | if you created a "pedestrian street" it would either never use it because the rating was too low, or it would build every street with that street |
12:52 | <supermop> | hmm |
12:52 | <Pikka> | having a few downtown streets pedestrianised is well beyond the capabilities of the town "ai" |
12:53 | <Zuu> | you would need to have a squirrel script to run under the scope of a town or so. |
12:53 | <supermop> | is the a property to set what town zone it builds a type in? |
12:53 | <Zuu> | But that might give a too high performance impact. |
12:53 | <supermop> | ie fancy street in town and dirt roads way out on the edge? |
12:53 | <Pikka> | no, there is not |
12:54 | <Pikka> | but of course there is no reason your roadtype can't have fancy street in town and dirt roads way out |
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12:54 | <supermop> | as the speed limits might differ, it seems there could be functionality beyond the current plain/sidewalk/trees/lamps |
12:55 | <Zuu> | Could perhaps the town 'ai' prefer road types with a lower maximum speed? As a way to at least prevent it to upgrade the whole town to highways. |
12:56 | <Pikka> | it will prefer whatever roadtype the grf tells it to prefer |
12:56 | <Pikka> | I don't think highways are a good choice for town-built roads |
12:57 | <Pikka> | I imagine a sensible roadtype grf will have towns build macadam/cobble early on, then normal tarmac roads. |
12:57 | <Pikka> | if I ever manage to even code anything ;) |
12:58 | <Zuu> | good point :-) |
12:58 | <Zuu> | something got done is better than something better, not done. |
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13:01 | * | andythenorth ponders some horrible union of roadtypes behind the scenes |
13:01 | <andythenorth> | so that 'tarmac road' is overbuildable with 'tram' or 'catenary' or whatever |
13:01 | <andythenorth> | and then the type is actually merged |
13:01 | <andythenorth> | ugh |
13:01 | * | andythenorth does something more useful |
13:03 | <Pikka> | D; |
13:04 | <andythenorth> | globals smell |
13:05 | * | andythenorth is removing them from a web app |
13:15 | <Pikka> | smelly globules |
13:15 | <Eddi|zuHause> | you mean globuli :) |
13:18 | <andythenorth> | exactly |
13:18 | <andythenorth> | anyway it's done |
13:18 | <andythenorth> | so... |
13:18 | <andythenorth> | bath |
13:18 | <andythenorth> | then what? |
13:18 | <andythenorth> | trucks? |
13:18 | <andythenorth> | roads? |
13:18 | <andythenorth> | or more work? |
13:18 | <Pikka> | hard to tell. roads probably |
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13:23 | <@Terkhen> | hello |
13:23 | <Eddi|zuHause> | ("Globuli" are the units delivering "homeopathic medicin"... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:DoseOscillococcinum.jpg) |
13:26 | <andythenorth> | hey ho Terkhen |
13:26 | <andythenorth> | ^ Pikka there swaggers a worthy recruit |
13:26 | <andythenorth> | try and persuade him |
13:26 | <andythenorth> | I failed so far :P |
13:27 | <andythenorth> | he's good at patching |
13:27 | <NGC3982> | hm |
13:27 | <NGC3982> | i cant seem to replace normal railway trains to electical |
13:27 | <NGC3982> | when i choose it in the list, the list goes blank. |
13:27 | <Pikka> | yikes :) |
13:28 | <Eddi|zuHause> | NGC3982: that list shows the source engines, not the target engines |
13:29 | <Eddi|zuHause> | NGC3982: the target engines always show both types |
13:29 | <NGC3982> | http://i.imgur.com/0gHE0.png |
13:29 | <NGC3982> | note the window to the right. |
13:29 | <Eddi|zuHause> | you have no electric engines |
13:30 | <Eddi|zuHause> | this selection is "replace FROM electric engines" |
13:30 | <Eddi|zuHause> | not "replace TO electric engines" |
13:30 | <andythenorth> | Terkhen: roadtypes! |
13:30 | <andythenorth> | there's a spec and everything |
13:30 | <teggiiii> | god bridges really rape the speed of a line |
13:30 | <andythenorth> | http://users.tt-forums.net/pikka/wiki/index.php?title=Some_Other_Road_Types_Definition |
13:31 | <@Terkhen> | scary :P |
13:32 | <andythenorth> | probably much more fun than rv wagons |
13:33 | <andythenorth> | the downside of rv-wagons is that it's just not that common to have >1 trailer on a truck |
13:33 | <andythenorth> | and having to 'build truck' then 'drag trailer' then probably 'refit trailer' is no more usable than 'build truck, refit' |
13:33 | <andythenorth> | so...roadtypes! |
13:36 | * | Pikka will help! |
13:37 | <NGC3982> | Eddi|zuHause: ah, my bad. thank you! |
13:42 | <teggiiii> | dumbo-question: how can i make a coalmine produce more coal? transport it all and create a "higher demand"? |
13:42 | <Eddi|zuHause> | what google's augmented reality _actually_ would look like: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysIClyFCgzs :) |
13:42 | <Eddi|zuHause> | teggiiii: production increases over time if you provide good transport rating |
13:43 | <teggiiii> | are there any brackets saying what is "good" and "bad" transport-rating? |
13:43 | <Eddi|zuHause> | teggiiii: check your station rating. ratings <30% makes it more likely to lower production, rating >60% makes it more likely to grow |
13:43 | <teggiiii> | alright |
13:43 | <teggiiii> | cheers |
13:45 | <teggiiii> | re-designing a station and forgetting a track, creating a jam and not noticing for 10 minutes.. <3 |
13:45 | <CIA-1> | OpenTTD: translators * r24110 /trunk/src/lang/ (korean.txt latvian.txt unfinished/tamil.txt): |
13:45 | <CIA-1> | OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0: |
13:45 | <CIA-1> | OpenTTD: korean - 1 changes by telk5093 |
13:45 | <CIA-1> | OpenTTD: latvian - 45 changes by Parastais |
13:45 | <CIA-1> | OpenTTD: tamil - 25 changes by aswn |
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14:04 | <NGC3982> | facebook just bought instagram |
14:04 | <NGC3982> | the price: one billion dollars. |
14:05 | <supermop> | how many miles of single track, freight suitable railway could one build through a jungle with that much money? |
14:06 | <@Terkhen> | to the moon and back? |
14:07 | <andythenorth> | supermop: in TTD? |
14:07 | <andythenorth> | most of the map |
14:07 | <supermop> | in SE Asia |
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14:07 | <andythenorth> | dunno |
14:07 | <andythenorth> | it's not that much money |
14:08 | <andythenorth> | it's probably what, $10 / user or something? |
14:08 | <supermop> | my new career plan is to be a cambodian railway baron |
14:08 | * | andythenorth can't be bothered to look up instagram user numbers |
14:08 | <supermop> | i doubt it 100 M people |
14:09 | <andythenorth> | allegedly around 25M |
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14:26 | <andythenorth> | hmm |
14:26 | <andythenorth> | just before a html <label> element: |
14:26 | <andythenorth> | <!-- insert label --> |
14:26 | <andythenorth> | really? |
14:26 | * | andythenorth must have smoked extra crack that day |
14:28 | <Eddi|zuHause> | // this is a comment |
14:30 | <andythenorth> | exactly |
14:30 | <andythenorth> | <!-- this is html --> |
14:31 | <Eddi|zuHause> | / the following line is self-documenting |
14:31 | <Eddi|zuHause> | hm, wrong button ;) |
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14:57 | <andythenorth> | where's all the chat gone :P |
15:00 | <@Terkhen> | somewhere |
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15:22 | -!- | drac_boy [~drac_boy@bas1-ottawa08-1176111076.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #openttd |
15:22 | <drac_boy> | hi |
15:25 | <Fori> | hi |
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15:26 | <drac_boy> | hi fori :p |
15:26 | <drac_boy> | anything new this time? |
15:26 | <Fori> | I think I found some nice setup... |
15:27 | <Fori> | I didnt play any game with it but kept searching for GRFs. |
15:27 | <Fori> | And now I was looking for some MP servers for 1.2.0 |
15:27 | <Fori> | But there's only a few. |
15:28 | <drac_boy> | humm well I'm doing a few things atm but if you're still around for a while I could soon start a server? (although its not 1.2.0 so...) |
15:29 | <Fori> | Nah, got university in the morning so I think I won't be online too long. |
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15:33 | <drac_boy> | ok :) |
15:34 | <Pikka> | drawing hooses, andythenorth |
15:35 | <drac_boy> | hoses or houses? |
15:35 | <supermop> | new ottd feature: NewHoses |
15:36 | <supermop> | much easier to transport liquids |
15:37 | <supermop> | and HoseTypes allows you to upgrade from green garden hose to firehose as demand increases |
15:37 | <drac_boy> | are you serious supermop? |
15:38 | <supermop> | junctions are a bit tricky though: should the garden hose just lay over the firehose, or should that tile take on the larger hose diameter |
15:39 | <drac_boy> | a garden hose isn't fit for any kind of industrial-size outputs..is it? |
15:39 | <drac_boy> | or are you just talking about relative map scale? |
15:39 | <supermop> | it is quite fit for new industry: lawn sprinkler |
15:39 | <Pikka> | obviously every hose should be a separate layer |
15:40 | <Pikka> | so you can have as many hoses on each tile as you like |
15:40 | <drac_boy> | well a sprinkler has nothing to do with industry cargos :p |
15:40 | <supermop> | yes, it accepts water from the faucet industry |
15:41 | <drac_boy> | probably at a rate of barely 1 litre meanwhile its outputting more than 40,000 litres |
15:42 | <drac_boy> | that would be...several thousand hoses for one single industry |
15:46 | <andythenorth> | hose types |
15:46 | <andythenorth> | very good |
15:46 | <supermop> | OpenTTD is not to scale |
15:47 | <andythenorth> | drac_boy: what's the dimension of a hose anyway? |
15:47 | <andythenorth> | Pikka: hooses are not roadtypes |
15:47 | <drac_boy> | andythenorth barely just enough to even sastify <5% of the output of the tropical water pump or any oilwells :) |
15:47 | <Pikka> | I was working on the hooses already though |
15:49 | <drac_boy> | fori mind if I pm you re some other words or you're already tired for bed? :) |
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15:51 | <krinn> | hi everyone |
15:51 | <Pikka> | hello krinn |
15:51 | <drac_boy> | hi krinn |
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15:59 | <drac_boy> | anyone think you should be able to bring limited supply of food (aka feed) to a fishing ground or not so much so? |
16:01 | <Zuu> | If you want to limit the amount you need to introduce stock piling, a somewhat advanced thingy that I think has been decided to not have in FIRS. |
16:02 | <drac_boy> | zuu that wasn't quite the question heh. beside you can't feed 20 fishes 600 tonnes of food of a sudden :p |
16:03 | <andythenorth> | drac_boy: if the fishing ground is a fish farm, yes |
16:03 | <andythenorth> | if it's at sea, not |
16:03 | <Zuu> | Sure, but while there is a "temporary full" message, there is to my knowledge no message to OpenTTD that an industry uses stockpiling or what the limits are (except for literal strings) |
16:03 | <krinn> | drac_boy, maybe not for the fish, but you can still gave 600 tonnes of food to a fish farm, what they do with it while they raise only 20 fishes is their problem :P |
16:04 | <drac_boy> | andythenorth thats what I was thinking (my friend has no idea what to tell me re this so he's not much help!) .. no food input then |
16:04 | <andythenorth> | it was tried for FIRS briefly |
16:04 | <andythenorth> | it's stupid |
16:04 | <andythenorth> | reality is not our best guide, but in this case, it applies |
16:04 | <drac_boy> | at least the cattle ranch can accept some food since thats a bit obvious |
16:05 | <andythenorth> | you're delivering animal feed? |
16:05 | <andythenorth> | where does the feed come from? |
16:05 | <drac_boy> | yeah but to avoid complicating thing its just lumped into 'food' |
16:05 | <drac_boy> | did think about seperate hay_ for a moment but didn't see much merit |
16:05 | <andythenorth> | k |
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16:06 | <andythenorth> | so what does cattle ranch produce? |
16:06 | <supermop> | steak |
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16:07 | <Pikka> | ranch |
16:07 | <drac_boy> | I'm undecided between either shipping cattle out...or it being butchered on the spot and shipped out as meat instead |
16:07 | <andythenorth> | is meat food? |
16:08 | <drac_boy> | its a seperate one |
16:09 | <andythenorth> | drac_boy: so how is food produced? |
16:09 | <TWerkhoven[l]> | microwave meals |
16:09 | <TWerkhoven[l]> | ready to eat, just heat em up |
16:10 | <drac_boy> | theres a few small sources for food output.. farms ... flour mill (as breads is a 'food' after all heh) .. etc |
16:10 | <krinn> | food for cattle, i'm afraid with dead cattle |
16:11 | <andythenorth> | what do farms produce? |
16:11 | <andythenorth> | food directly? |
16:11 | <Digitalfox> | Since I'm not familiar with the development of GRFCodec, should I file a bug, when you get a error decompiling a GRF in 6.0.0 and not in 1.0.0? Maybe it's something known? |
16:12 | <drac_boy> | interestingly enough in railroad tycoon 2 you had (farm)>grain>(bakery)>food>(town) and (farm)>grain>(stockyard)>cattle>(butchery)>food>(town) ... my rough diagram is not too far off from that |
16:12 | <andythenorth> | drac_boy: FIRS doesn't have any farm->farm connection, but sometimes I think it should |
16:12 | <andythenorth> | it can't though :P |
16:12 | <drac_boy> | andythenorth actually the farm would produce just one output of something else that has to be sent to a middle industry for to then get 'food' out of it. I don't know which crops I'm thinking of yet but wheat is one consideration |
16:14 | <drac_boy> | wheat could go to either bakery for 'food' or to the brewery to be mixed with bottles (glass, steel, or ?) then outputted as 'food' .. theres other crop suggestions I could think of too tho |
16:15 | <drac_boy> | just as long as its not rice as that doesn't quite fit with snowy mountains :) |
16:16 | <drac_boy> | btw maybe I should draw what I have of a diagram and let you criticize it then? :p |
16:17 | <andythenorth> | maybe |
16:17 | <andythenorth> | hmm |
16:17 | <andythenorth> | it's quite tempting to put abstractions into code so that 'big changes are easy' |
16:17 | <drac_boy> | heh |
16:17 | <andythenorth> | this makes the code hard to work with when you have to read it and make small changes |
16:18 | <andythenorth> | and once every 5 years you make the big change |
16:18 | <drac_boy> | andythenorth btw do you think its plausible to make an industry that only can be placed on sloped tile adjacent to water? |
16:18 | <andythenorth> | which you could have done in an hour with find + replace |
16:18 | <krinn> | if you wish something none as done (to my knowledge) yet, it's trash :P |
16:18 | <andythenorth> | drac_boy: FIRS fishing harbour does it |
16:18 | <krinn> | town produce trash -> incinerator |
16:18 | <andythenorth> | krinn: it's borin |
16:18 | <andythenorth> | +g |
16:18 | <drac_boy> | andythenorth ah heh...I was thinking of a harbour in general but guess you got me beat to that idea :) |
16:18 | <andythenorth> | dunno why |
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16:19 | <andythenorth> | krinn: http://www.tt-foundry.com/sets/FIRS/schema/industries?economy=everything#incinerator |
16:19 | <krinn> | why deprecated ? |
16:20 | <andythenorth> | boring |
16:20 | <andythenorth> | does nothing for gameplay |
16:20 | <andythenorth> | basically there are 32 cargos, and 'trash' is not worth a slot |
16:20 | <andythenorth> | other things are more interesting |
16:20 | <drac_boy> | andythenorth do you think that this isn't a bad idea: steel mill...accepts coal+ore ... it'll work fine with ore alone ... adding coal would only upper the output ... but if you keep sending coal to it nonstop and little or no ore it'll eventually block off any further coal input? |
16:21 | <andythenorth> | drac_boy: try it and see |
16:21 | <drac_boy> | theres no limit on the ore... but as for the coal side itself I'm having to think a bit more about that |
16:21 | <Pikka> | tourists, andythenorth! |
16:21 | <drac_boy> | at least that would be a lot better than the irriating uksi and ecs behaviours (no offense meant please ok pikka?) |
16:21 | <andythenorth> | yes, because tourists are not passengers! |
16:21 | <krinn> | maybe restrict incinerator distance from town |
16:21 | <andythenorth> | tourists are Special Passengers! |
16:21 | <andythenorth> | like Blue Coal! |
16:21 | <drac_boy> | heh |
16:21 | <andythenorth> | or Red Cows! |
16:22 | <krinn> | eheh what are tourists? passengers that pay 2x everything |
16:22 | <andythenorth> | Pikka: when are you adding 1st class coaches to UKRS? |
16:23 | <Pikka> | after I add smoking and non-smoking passengers |
16:23 | <drac_boy> | andythenorth considering that the real things needed to make glass would be difficult to add tot an industry grf ... do you think that just sand alone would be enough or should it be sand plus a second something else? (don't suggest water if you'll mind, I'm assuming industries have their own city supply pipes heh) |
16:23 | <andythenorth> | Pikka: but think of the realism! |
16:23 | <Pikka> | *thinks* |
16:23 | <drac_boy> | heh |
16:24 | <andythenorth> | you could enforce that train formations *must* be accurate for that particular day and route |
16:24 | <andythenorth> | HSTs *must* be 4+1+2 |
16:24 | <andythenorth> | you could render BROS invalid! |
16:24 | <andythenorth> | drac_boy: go play FIRS, and/or read the dev thread, and you'll discover what I think of industries |
16:25 | <andythenorth> | and the process I got there via :P |
16:25 | <krinn> | andythenorth, so what? i then couldn't make a train for smokers or cound't make one non smokers only ? |
16:25 | <andythenorth> | krinn: or you could smoke a train |
16:25 | <andythenorth> | newgrf smoke! |
16:26 | <andythenorth> | Pikka: ^ that is a significantly easier project, if roadtypes got boring |
16:28 | <drac_boy> | andythenorth theres only one small problem with your suggestion: the readme points to only ottd ^_^ |
16:28 | <andythenorth> | ? |
16:28 | <drac_boy> | krinn just don't forget to put the smokers up front closer to the steam locomotive :p |
16:28 | <drac_boy> | heh |
16:28 | <andythenorth> | only ottd is a problem because...? |
16:29 | * | drac_boy throws another of the patch at andythenorth |
16:29 | <drac_boy> | :p |
16:29 | <andythenorth> | ? |
16:29 | <Wolf01> | 'night |
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16:29 | <Pikka> | because you can't get the wood you know |
16:29 | <drac_boy> | andythenorth..you know..that other game :) |
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16:30 | <@peter1138> | simutrans? |
16:30 | <andythenorth> | oh that one |
16:30 | <andythenorth> | I've heard of that |
16:30 | <andythenorth> | it has some insane system of variable graphic sizes |
16:30 | <drac_boy> | peter1138 thats not a patch :) |
16:30 | <drac_boy> | but never mind |
16:30 | <andythenorth> | simutrans has cargo destinations too |
16:30 | <andythenorth> | drac_boy: you can't play ottd? |
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16:31 | <andythenorth> | your platform is supported only by ttdp? |
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16:32 | <Rubidium> | andythenorth: I guess that's the way basically everyone starts |
16:34 | <drac_boy> | andythenorth yeah pretty much....unless someone gets that sidelined ottd-dos build started again but that seem unlikely :) |
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16:35 | <Rubidium> | drac_boy: that build still builds |
16:35 | <andythenorth> | how rare |
16:35 | <drac_boy> | Rubidium really? |
16:35 | <andythenorth> | it's an intriguing requirement |
16:36 | <andythenorth> | how will you draw your pixels in dos? |
16:36 | <@peter1138> | deluxe paint? :D |
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16:36 | <drac_boy> | andythenorth I don't ... dos is actually a guest os btw |
16:36 | <drac_boy> | ;) |
16:37 | <@planetmaker> | so he runs neither Solaris, *BSD, Windows*, *Linux*, OSX > 10.3 |
16:37 | <drac_boy> | andythenorth the pixels are coming from photoshop just fyi |
16:37 | <krinn> | must be running OS/2 |
16:37 | <@peter1138> | basically dragonhorsedonkeypanthersheepsnakekoalaboychild likes ttdpatch |
16:38 | <andythenorth> | well that's fine |
16:38 | <andythenorth> | he's in a gang of 4 now |
16:38 | <@planetmaker> | krinn: there it works, too. I forgot |
16:38 | <krinn> | :D |
16:38 | <@planetmaker> | at least that's my latest info. orudge will know better. |
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16:38 | <drac_boy> | andythenorth the funny thing is I doubted it would even work but I can forward ethernet tcp/ip into dos .. so it does have some resemble of working ftp :p |
16:39 | <@peter1138> | and he wants to run openttd under dos as a guest os because that places a silly restriction on the availability of openttd for his platform |
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16:39 | <drac_boy> | usually use Fetch and then just copy the files to the shared folder for the emulator tho |
16:39 | <@peter1138> | what are you running dos on? |
16:39 | <drac_boy> | macos. via vpc |
16:40 | <Rubidium> | the dos build even seems to work (excl. network) |
16:40 | <@peter1138> | it's too easy to just run openttd under macos |
16:41 | <valhallasw> | it's not real ttd if it's not under dos! |
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16:42 | <drac_boy> | peter1138 well I don't see any means to, and even Symantec C++ doesn't quite like the source |
16:42 | <@planetmaker> | peter1138: macos might indeed pose a big challenge. macos != OSX |
16:42 | <andythenorth> | drac_boy: so you're going to create a (large) set, in TTDP |
16:42 | <andythenorth> | which is a dead project |
16:42 | <andythenorth> | unmaintained |
16:42 | <andythenorth> | everybody working on it left |
16:42 | <andythenorth> | it has provably fewer useful features |
16:42 | <drac_boy> | andythenorth not that large actually. the rail list is <40 locomotives and <10 wagons |
16:42 | <andythenorth> | but you're doing an industry chain too? |
16:43 | <drac_boy> | only a small one...about 26 industries and 12 slots |
16:43 | <drac_boy> | cargo slots* |
16:43 | <andythenorth> | big enough |
16:44 | <drac_boy> | not really..I could had doubled it if I wanted to but thats getting too complex for a 'basic industry' tho :) |
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16:45 | <drac_boy> | anyhow going release a useable grf next month or two. maybe screenshots earlier tho ^_^ |
16:45 | <andythenorth> | and you prefer playing TTDP? |
16:45 | <andythenorth> | :) |
16:46 | <andythenorth> | is it the custom bridgeheads by any chance? |
16:47 | * | FLHerne fiddles with More Heightlevels |
16:47 | <drac_boy> | not much of any features tbh |
16:47 | <Fori> | A "load 75% or more" command would be nice ^^ |
16:48 | <drac_boy> | although programmable signals was one but I noticed that its in chrill's patch tho |
16:48 | <andythenorth> | so why the DOS / VirtualPC setup? |
16:48 | <FLHerne> | I think I did something wrong - the void has gone a very nice shade of pink :-( |
16:48 | <drac_boy> | fori I think I once suggested some sort of 0-100% loading option in the schedule dialog in steps of tens |
16:48 | <drac_boy> | not sure what anyone else really think of it |
16:48 | <Fori> | What do you think about it? |
16:49 | <drac_boy> | andythenorth because the only native version for macos was an old pre-deluxe one for japan. I doubt that it would be possible to get newgrfs working on it so thats a dead end for sure :) |
16:49 | <drac_boy> | fori I could use it |
16:50 | <andythenorth> | you have OS 9 or something? |
16:50 | <drac_boy> | andythenorth yeah |
16:50 | <andythenorth> | k |
16:51 | <drac_boy> | fori I think the partial load feature could help with pax trains..not leaving empty but not have to wait for a full load on a long train tho |
16:51 | <drac_boy> | hmm probably planes too |
16:51 | <FLHerne> | drac_boy: Just run linux on your old hardware, then OTTD on that :P |
16:51 | <FLHerne> | Worked for me :D |
16:52 | <@planetmaker> | :-) |
16:52 | <drac_boy> | FLHerne problem would be no software compactibility... plus you actually need to dualboot with macos due to firmware issues with anything thats below the G4 |
16:52 | <drac_boy> | I do have YDL on one of the noninternet mac tho |
16:53 | <FLHerne> | Yes, I know the firmware's a pain. I ran Chill's PP on my PB1400, took about 6 hours to compile :P |
16:54 | <drac_boy> | FLHerne heh |
16:54 | <FLHerne> | Needed this project's kernel, the standard one doesn't work - http://nubus-pmac.sourceforge.net/ |
16:54 | <drac_boy> | that makes me thinking..did ottd ever supported rails over tunnel portals? |
16:55 | <@peter1138> | oh right, so you're having to emulate an x86 cpu as well |
16:55 | <@peter1138> | that must be... slow |
16:55 | <FLHerne> | ALso, any ideas on my pink background? It looks rather silly, and I'm not quite sure how it happened :-( |
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16:56 | <drac_boy> | peter1138 for windows it can be but anything dos based doesn't really care because its already rather 'fast' for them |
16:56 | <FLHerne> | No, OTTD compiles for PPC ok |
16:56 | <Rubidium> | FLHerne: dos vs window palette |
16:57 | <krinn> | can't you just install a linux for ppc and play openttd? |
16:57 | <drac_boy> | FLHerne there is two small strips in the palette that is different between dos and windows afaik |
16:57 | <drac_boy> | one was that dos omitted the water strip present in win ... forgot what the second one was |
16:57 | <drac_boy> | I know that the win palette had a pink strip named 'Win API' I think |
16:58 | <FLHerne> | krinn: That's what I'm doing, still slow though, and the stable linux kernels don't work. OTTD at 133MHz is painful |
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16:58 | <FLHerne> | Rubidium: How do I change that then? Pallettes are irritating |
16:59 | <Rubidium> | I reckon the patch comes with an extra sprite, doesn't it? |
16:59 | <krinn> | FLHerne, well, what would you expect from such an old cpu... i'm not aware of any problem with kernel and ppc, but i'm not aware of ppc world |
16:59 | <Rubidium> | s/sprite/grf/ |
17:00 | <FLHerne> | Rubidium: It does, yes. So it's using the wrong pallette and coming out pink instead of black? |
17:00 | <Rubidium> | exactly |
17:01 | <FLHerne> | krinn: Linux on PPC is Ok, the problem is nubus expansion slots, due to them being totally non-standard |
17:01 | <Rubidium> | so you need to convert that GRF to the other palette, or mess with the code so the 'right' palette is chosen |
17:02 | <drac_boy> | Rubidium grfcodec could deal with decode+encode into alternative palette didn't it? |
17:02 | <FLHerne> | Rubidium: thanks. I'll go and look at the wiki for palette conversion then :D |
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17:02 | <Rubidium> | drac_boy: it could |
17:03 | <Rubidium> | although I'm still not understanding why the extra sprite is needed |
17:03 | <xiong> | drac_boy, you may be the last OS 9 guy in the room. I used to be the last OS 9 guy and I still have a beige G3 in running condition. |
17:03 | * | drac_boy gives xiong a spare Macpose game cd? :) |
17:03 | <drac_boy> | heh |
17:04 | <Rubidium> | why do freeform edges work now, but don't they work correctly when having more heightlevels? That really smells like a bug in the heightlevels patch where the extra sprite is just an ugly workaround |
17:04 | <xiong> | I have some Tropico! |
17:04 | <FLHerne> | Beige G3s are nasty - I intend to dispose of mine '< |
17:05 | <andythenorth> | we sprayed ours blue |
17:05 | <andythenorth> | and then sold it for too much money |
17:05 | <andythenorth> | how rate |
17:05 | <@planetmaker> | lol, really? :-) |
17:05 | <andythenorth> | rare /s :P |
17:05 | <xiong> | Ship it to me, FLHerne; I'll pay the freight. I might need the spare someday. |
17:05 | <andythenorth> | we sold it for £200 or so |
17:05 | <andythenorth> | we bought it for £1200 and it paid back in about a year :P |
17:06 | <FLHerne> | It's one of the flat desktop ones - even worse than the towers :| |
17:06 | <andythenorth> | mmm...but the internals of the case are tidy |
17:06 | <andythenorth> | and you get a proper keyboard |
17:06 | <xiong> | The internals are very tidy indeed. |
17:06 | <NGC3982> | < xiong> I have some Tropico! |
17:06 | <NGC3982> | the game? |
17:06 | <FLHerne> | Not as good as the turquoise G4s :D |
17:06 | <andythenorth> | why is everyone suddenly a beige G3 owner? |
17:06 | <xiong> | Yes, NGC3982. |
17:06 | <NGC3982> | xiong: sweet jesus and mary joseph. |
17:07 | <FLHerne> | Little case-flopping open catches are nice |
17:07 | <NGC3982> | that is a fantastic game |
17:07 | <NGC3982> | forgotten about it completely |
17:07 | <andythenorth> | Open Tropico! |
17:07 | * | NGC3982 downloads in an instant. |
17:07 | * | andythenorth never played it |
17:07 | <andythenorth> | is there an OS X version available? |
17:07 | * | andythenorth likes Sid Meier |
17:07 | <NGC3982> | doesnt look like it |
17:07 | * | drac_boy actually prefers desktop form myself |
17:07 | <drac_boy> | would had rather ordered the DT over the MT if I was ever shopping around back then |
17:07 | <NGC3982> | i dont think i ever played tropico after the first game |
17:07 | <xiong> | I will participate in OpenTropico only if brothels are added. |
17:08 | <drac_boy> | andythenorth btw I don't know if it was on purpose or not but there are quite a number of new libs and softwares you can get binary for (or just compile yourself) on macos ... ghostscript comes to mind for one |
17:09 | <NGC3982> | xiong: well, let's get cracking then, ey. |
17:09 | <andythenorth> | Tropico 3 works on 10.6.8 |
17:09 | <andythenorth> | lucky me |
17:09 | <andythenorth> | expect to not see me for a while :P |
17:09 | <krinn> | there's a 4 you know ? |
17:09 | * | NGC3982 misses tropico 1. |
17:10 | <NGC3982> | tropico 4 looks nice, but thats not what i want from a game. |
17:10 | <NGC3982> | surely, most of us dont in the premisses of this channel. |
17:10 | <NGC3982> | :) |
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17:11 | * | krinn wonders who is going to paint his screen with red and green lines to play space invaders like the real arcade now |
17:11 | * | andythenorth is going to bed |
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17:11 | <NGC3982> | :( |
17:11 | <drac_boy> | krinn maybe you should try some real vector games? I dunno :) |
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17:12 | <krinn> | asteroid 3D ! |
17:12 | <krinn> | i'm going to bed, i feel too old now |
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17:19 | <Fori> | NGC, tropico 1 was so nice... |
17:19 | <Fori> | :) |
17:20 | <Fori> | Most of game series get destroyed by "improvements". |
17:22 | <Nat_aS> | Ehh, in general I agree with you, but I find Tropico 1 to be unplayable |
17:22 | <Nat_aS> | 3 and 4 are the best |
17:23 | <Nat_aS> | although 4 made the right choice by not changing much from 3 |
17:23 | <Nat_aS> | sometimes you can't even tell the diffrence from screenshots |
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17:23 | <Fori> | Well. Nat_aS the traffic system is a good idea but completely broken ^^ |
17:23 | <Nat_aS> | I never had a problem with traffic |
17:24 | <Nat_aS> | i mean my streets get crowded, but I've never had it effect my island badly |
17:24 | <Fori> | Yeah. |
17:26 | <@Terkhen> | good night |
17:26 | <Fori> | n8 |
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17:27 | <Fori> | Damn all those devs all blaming piracy for not well selling games -.- |
17:27 | <Fori> | It's about DRM and GOOD games. |
17:27 | <Fori> | Don't they get that? |
17:27 | <Fori> | Or are they aware and the rest is just PR ? |
17:27 | <Fori> | I'd pay for OpenTTD if it wasn't free. (I think I'll make a donation) |
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17:38 | <Rubidium> | OpenTTD is a good example that without DRM on good games you can't rake in millions |
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17:43 | <@peter1138> | Minecraft is a good example that without DRM on good games you can rake in millions |
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17:44 | <+glx> | there is a kind of DRM in minecraft ;) |
17:45 | <@peter1138> | centralised login, true |
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17:51 | <ToxicFrog> | A better example is GOG. |
17:51 | <@peter1138> | are they raking in millions? |
17:52 | <ToxicFrog> | They were as of their last report, yes. |
17:52 | <ToxicFrog> | And are signing new publishers at a steady rate - they just got Ubisoft on board. |
17:54 | <MNIM> | skyrim doesn't have a drm if Im not mistaken. |
17:55 | <ToxicFrog> | It does; it's Steamworks. |
17:55 | <MNIM> | ..wait it has ste-oh yeah. piiiirated it. |
17:55 | <MNIM> | >.> |
17:55 | <__ln__> | But OpenTTD does have DRM. It won't even start without graphics files. |
17:55 | <MNIM> | <.< |
17:56 | <drac_boy> | __ln__ you not heard of "go get opengfx" :p |
17:56 | <Fori> | MNIM, I did first. But then thought "Meh, you cannot buy Skyrim"... |
17:56 | <Fori> | :D |
17:56 | <ToxicFrog> | Rubidium: really, what openTTD is demonstrating right now is "freeware games don't make millions". No, really? |
17:56 | <MNIM> | what? |
17:57 | <__ln__> | drac_boy: If the bananas server or whatever is taken offline, then one can't get the opengfx and the game won't start. |
17:57 | <Fori> | Was talking about pirating Skyrim, MNIM |
17:57 | <ToxicFrog> | (and what it was demonstrating before opengfx was "games that are no longer sold don't make millions, but people are still willing to pirate them". This isn't surprising either, in either direction.) |
17:57 | <ToxicFrog> | (see also: the profusion of abandonware sites) |
17:57 | <MNIM> | I got that, fori, but your grammar makes no sense on me |
17:57 | <drac_boy> | __ln__ who said it was on bananas? |
17:57 | <Fori> | Oh, sorry. |
17:57 | <Fori> | I'm German. |
17:57 | <MNIM> | actually, __ln__, nope :P it's included in the ubuntu repos at least |
17:58 | <__ln__> | drac_boy: I don't know where the Windows installer gets it from, but that's irrelevant. |
17:58 | <drac_boy> | __ln__ where did you download your windows installer? there's a nearby url that says 'opengfx' |
17:58 | <drac_boy> | thats all I can say about that :) |
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17:59 | <__ln__> | MNIM: Ubuntu repos can be taken offline; even if not, using Ubuntu repos usually requires an Internet connection. |
17:59 | <ToxicFrog> | __ln__: calling this "DRM" is a stretch |
17:59 | <ToxicFrog> | Once you have the files downloaded, that's all you need |
17:59 | <Fori> | True, Toxicfrog. |
18:00 | <ToxicFrog> | By that definition, everything GOG releases "DRM-free" actually has DRM, because you have to actually download the game before you can play it. |
18:01 | <drac_boy> | yeah I had to check, click 'download openttd' ... and conventionally the opengfx url is located before the download table |
18:01 | <Fori> | That definition makes no sense to me. |
18:01 | <Fori> | Cause if you can copy the files once you downloaded them there's no DRM. |
18:01 | <Fori> | And launch without any LogIn and stuff. |
18:01 | <ToxicFrog> | Or, for a more similar comparison, Marathon Aleph-One, which has seperate downloads for the game engine and game data. |
18:02 | <ToxicFrog> | (although in that case the game data is actually the original game data, released as freeware by the developer, rather than a cleanroom replacement for it) |
18:02 | <MNIM> | well yeah. anyway, Imma agree with the frog here, that's a bit farfetched |
18:02 | <Fori> | When I heard SimCity uses Origin I was like :( |
18:02 | <Fori> | Or more.. ;( |
18:03 | <Zuu> | In 1.2, isn't there a dialog showing that asks to download OpenGFX if no data can be found? |
18:03 | <Fori> | Yes it is. |
18:04 | <Fori> | Well. At least the was for me ^^ |
18:04 | <Fori> | *there |
18:04 | <Zuu> | It worked for me when I tried it when it was introduced in trunk. |
18:04 | <+glx> | maybe not for OSX ;) |
18:05 | <Rubidium> | glx: s/maybe/definitely/ |
18:05 | <Zuu> | So its a DRM that you need Linux or Windows? ;-) |
18:05 | <Fori> | xD |
18:05 | <Fori> | Guys, I'm off, see ya tomorrow. |
18:05 | <drac_boy> | bye fori |
18:05 | <+glx> | it's because apple deprecation policy |
18:05 | <Rubidium> | Zuu: you also require freetype (and on Linux fontconfig) |
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18:06 | <Rubidium> | yeah, officially we only "support" 10.3.9, 10.4.x and 10.5.x |
18:06 | <+glx> | and it's enough pain |
18:07 | <Rubidium> | but effectively there's really no support at all |
18:07 | <+glx> | rewrite OSX port for each new OSX version is not nice |
18:10 | <drac_boy> | glx that was one thing i never understood apple for, treating each version as completely different os compared to everyone else |
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18:11 | <+glx> | drac_boy: that's a good thing for paid software ;) |
18:11 | <drac_boy> | not so much for most of everyone else :P |
18:13 | <FLHerne> | Goodnight everyone |
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20:11 | <drac_boy> | hi |
20:12 | * | drac_boy wonders if theres any europe or uk specific site for specifications on older freight wagons |
20:14 | <FlyingFoX> | hi, what is the ratio at which an oil refinery makes oil to goods? |
20:14 | <FlyingFoX> | is it 1to1? |
20:16 | <drac_boy> | don't know sorry, just don't forget that station rating also sorta affects the total output a bit too |
20:21 | * | drac_boy wonders if anyone else here might know |
20:22 | <ToxicFrog> | I don't, sorry |
20:22 | <ToxicFrog> | Although I could crowbar it open and check |
20:23 | * | ToxicFrog prods Trac. Give me a URL to check out from please |
20:26 | <ToxicFrog> | This may take a while. |
20:27 | <+glx> | http://wiki.openttd.org/SVN#How_can_I_obtain_the_source_code.3F |
20:28 | <ToxicFrog> | Yeah, got past that part |
20:28 | <ToxicFrog> | Waiting for it to check out now |
20:28 | <+glx> | I hope you don't forget the trunk part ;) |
20:29 | <ToxicFrog> | ? |
20:30 | <+glx> | svn.openttd.org/trunk <-- this |
20:30 | <+glx> | else you get everything |
20:31 | <drac_boy> | anyone think a doubledeck wagon would had been double the capacity minus one or two less seat rows (since thats where the stairs goes) compared to a standard coach..or is there variety to that? |
20:31 | <ToxicFrog> | glx: I'm using git anyways, so |
20:31 | <+glx> | git has only trunk so it should be ok :) |
20:33 | <ToxicFrog> | Seriously? Why? |
20:33 | <ToxicFrog> | I assumed it was a git-svn mirror or similar |
20:34 | <+glx> | it is, but only trunk is synced |
20:34 | <ToxicFrog> | Aah |
20:35 | <+glx> | oh some branches are in git it seems |
20:35 | <+glx> | but not the tags |
20:36 | <ToxicFrog> | Hey, it's done |
20:39 | <ToxicFrog> | Ok, table/build_industry.h makes me very sad |
20:40 | <ToxicFrog> | At least it's decently commented |
20:44 | <ToxicFrog> | FlyingFoX: looks like it's 1:1 |
20:45 | <ToxicFrog> | The refinery has a multiplier of 256 on incoming cargo amounts, but then in the economy code it takes 256 input units to make one output unit, so it's 1:1 |
20:48 | <+glx> | of course newgrfs can change that ;) |
20:53 | <drac_boy> | as long as its not too much 'waste' for no reason. would be too silly if you unloaded 190,000 litres to then find ony 40,000 litres of fuel waiting for you :) |
20:53 | <drac_boy> | heh |
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21:05 | <drac_boy> | hmm.... |
21:05 | * | drac_boy throws a lot of gibbish datas into here |
21:05 | <drac_boy> | :| |
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21:38 | <drac_boy> | ok thats enough for tonight now I think...ugh .. a few hours gone :-s |
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23:34 | <Rhamphoryncus> | Hrm, I think I have a broken town. Station near the center that I load from/deliver to/transfer to. 91% rating, 398 of 485 passengers. Appalling rating and town is NOT growing. |
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--- | Log | closed Tue Apr 10 00:00:55 2012 |