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#openttd IRC Logs for 2012-04-10

---Logopened Tue Apr 10 00:00:56 2012
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01:02<Endymion_Mallorn>Hey, what version of OpenTTD is NUTS Unrealistic Train Set 0.0.4x compatible with
01:02<Endymion_Mallorn>? (sorry, blasted enter key)
01:15<Rubidium>I'd guess 1.2.0-RC4
01:23<Endymion_Mallorn>Damn and blast.
01:24<Endymion_Mallorn>Because the way I play OpenTTD is PortableApps... and they've only released stables so far.
01:25<Endymion_Mallorn>You know, in upcoming versons, do you think it will be possible for the Content Downloader to be changed so that only GRFs compatible with that version of OTTD were viewable?
01:25<@planetmaker>it's feasible since its introduction
01:25<@planetmaker>But it's the NewGRF's authors responsibility to set the proper version requirements
01:27<Endymion_Mallorn>Ah. So the issue would then be with the content download service setup - that it allows NewGRFs to be added without logging minimum version requirements.
01:27<@planetmaker>no.
01:27*Endymion_Mallorn raises an eyebrow
01:27<@planetmaker>The issue is that in this case the author filled out the things wrongly
01:27<@planetmaker>probably
01:28<Endymion_Mallorn>Ah, I see.
01:29<Endymion_Mallorn>So find him and beat him with a carp.
01:29<Rubidium>OpenTTD on PortableApps... the place that reads (a part of the) readme for you
01:32*Endymion_Mallorn raises an eyebrow
01:32<Endymion_Mallorn>Define?
01:36<@planetmaker>section 4
01:37<@planetmaker>in other words: everyone who read the readme can create his or her own "portable app"
01:37<@planetmaker>without any knowledge beyond using a copy programme
01:40-!-Prof_Frink [~proffrink@5e09ee84.bb.sky.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
01:43<Endymion_Mallorn>This requires I want something that I don't just download and use.
01:45<@planetmaker>so you download the "portable app" and it's ready-installed on your USB-device? ;-)
01:46<@planetmaker>without running the "installer"?
01:46<Endymion_Mallorn>Well, yeah, there's the portableapps installer, but it does everything for me.
01:47<Endymion_Mallorn>I download the .paf.exe file, double-click, and 10 or so minutes later? Poof, perfectly working program.
01:53<@planetmaker>thus it saves you to know that OpenTTD saves all stuff next to the dirs of the openttd.exe if there exists a config file file in the data dir next to the openttd.exe
01:53<@planetmaker>thus the "install" does just that: copy openttd to the usb stick
01:54<@planetmaker>thus any user who read the readme won't need the "portable app"
01:54<@planetmaker>as he has everything at hand. Out of box
01:58<Endymion_Mallorn>I installed 1.1.1 on my machine. Needed to download OpenGFX, OpenSFX, and OpenMSX separately. With the two subsequent PortableApps installs since that, never had to play with that. It came pre-packed.
02:00<Rhamphoryncus>Hrm. It just occurred to me: if cargo aged in the station then you'd have a lot more diversity in trains (ie lots of small ones that leave at regular intervals). Of course this would have to be newgrf-dependant
02:01*Endymion_Mallorn looks at that like a man reading Greek - just barely getting my head around FIRS and "stockpiling".
02:02<Rhamphoryncus>This thought was inspired by the dutch train set's Plan mP. Dinky thing, in reality used for very small mail trains. In openttd, because waiting in the station is free, is easier (and more efficient) to wait much longer to full load a large train
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04:53<Eddi|zuHause>new modem arrived... my connection might be unreliable in the next few hours
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05:23<Achilleshiel>is there anyone with experience to the tunnel_bridge
05:44<NGC3982>http://d24w6bsrhbeh9d.cloudfront.net/photo/3777705_700b.jpg
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06:17<drac_boy>hi
06:31<Eddi|zuHause2>anyone have a bright idea how to swap IP-adresses between two devices that both are only accessible via ethernet?
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06:32<drac_boy>is it static network or not so much?
06:33<Eddi|zuHause2>interesting... i changed ip-adress of my router, but the connection to the internet stayed :)
06:42<drac_boy>well if its static..just assign some new ip to first device for a moment..and then give one of the two old one to second device, then the first device gets the other old ip
06:42<drac_boy>otherwise I don't know how you could had done it
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06:54<@orudge>planetmaker (belatedly): it did, last time I tried it, but that was a while ago, but grfcodec/nforenum etc won't build, and networking hasn't worked since IPv6 :p
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06:58<Fori>Hi!
06:58<drac_boy>what is this about?
06:58<drac_boy>heh hi fori :)
06:58<drac_boy>not tired anymore fori?
06:59<Fori>Huh ?
07:00<Fori>I never was tired, was I? ^^
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07:01<Fori>I come up with a question again... Sorry for having to compare ECS with FIRS but. Is there industry leveling (production increase for primary industries) in FIRS too?
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07:01<drac_boy>fori sorry must had been the other person I was talking to at same time yesterday
07:02<drac_boy>and I'm not sure but I'm sure someone here would tell you soon fori
07:02<Fori>I mean. It would be pointless if they couldn't increase production, would it?
07:02<Fori>Would be lame at all ^^
07:03<Fori>I've thought about downloading some IRC client if I come here more often...
07:03<Fori>Tho that webchat is quite comfortable.
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07:08<drac_boy>fori so what are you doing? playing as usual? :)
07:09<Fori>Sure.
07:09<Fori>^^
07:09<Fori>Just testing some new Setup.
07:10<Fori>But I think the trains are too expensive...
07:10<Fori>400k for an electric train seems a bit much?
07:10<Fori>I'm playing with DBSetXL and BaseCosts on Cabble.
07:11<drac_boy>fori the dbsetxl costs were more or less set 'relastic' so its better to not use basecost modifications on these I recall
07:11<oskari89>No, that's in reality quite little :P
07:11<Fori>Yeah, oskari.
07:11<drac_boy>oskari89 it depends on which currency tho :P
07:11-!-andythenorth [~Andy@78-86-194-127.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #openttd
07:11<oskari89>Euros?
07:11<drac_boy>how much euro to DEM?
07:11<oskari89>See google :P
07:11<Fori>And right now, drac, I'm trying to figure out how to enable the station names of "enemies".
07:12<drac_boy>oskari89 I don't think that'll work due to the old 'fixed' multiplier in the game? :)
07:12<oskari89>Hmm.
07:12<drac_boy>fori enemies? heh .. I think its one of these label option in the map menu
07:13<Fori>FINALLY
07:13<Fori>thanks.
07:13<Fori>Was looking over that patch options over and over.
07:13<oskari89>Is there anything like grf for modifiable buying cost multiplier?
07:14<oskari89>Or is it just on the set's, if it is?
07:14<oskari89>Would like to test with locomotives cost over million euros, how business would run in OpenTTD :)
07:14<oskari89>Slowly progressing, i guess..
07:16<drac_boy>oskari I dunno about euro but even in the 1930s some of the electrics are too costly to buy as your first locomotive at all unless you had a very high loan limit with low interest
07:16<drac_boy>or thats my experience with dbsetxl on default costs
07:17<Fori>Uhm, oskari.
07:17<Fori>I'm using "BaseCostMod"
07:17<Fori>with "BaseCostPresets".
07:17<Fori>And it's simply a lot if you ask me.
07:18<Fori>The 160km/h electric lok is around 400k€
07:20<drac_boy>about prices, anyone think that the change from friction to roller bearing would be a slight higher purchase price but lower yearly maintenance cost?
07:20<drac_boy>for anything in general, including wagons
07:23<oskari89>I do start companies always the same way, first buses and road traffic, pay out the loan...
07:23<oskari89>Then i build airports far from each other and then i make money.
07:23<oskari89>Then i start building train network :)
07:24<oskari89>But, can aircraft ranges be disabled somehow on av8 2.1?
07:25<Fori>I dunno sorry.
07:25<Fori>I've started using WAS
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07:26<Fori>I've got another question for you guys..
07:26<drac_boy>just wondering as thats the second time I've heard of it, do newer plane grfs actually have a limited range they would travel at?
07:26<Fori>What does "accepts xxx (y/z) " mean?
07:27-!-Elukka [Elukka@78-27-90-14.bb.dnainternet.fi] has quit []
07:27<Fori>So what do these numbers y and z stand for ?
07:31<drac_boy>if so I'm just wondering if it could be possible to put a station distance limit on certain rail locomotives too
07:36<Fori>Makes sense for steam or fuel
07:36<Fori>But not for electricity, right?
07:37<drac_boy>fori yeah. electrics can travel wherever they want (normally they would had been limited by substations but the game doesn't have that ... steam usually could just run at full pressure till it gets too far and they turn into slow limp
07:38<drac_boy>not too sure how to treat diesels tho
07:38<drac_boy>'slow limp' as in still moving but the crews probably are trying to salvage any trees into firewood or pail-scooping water from the creeks. actually happened a lot for real
07:39<drac_boy>interesting thing about this tho is that Railroad Tycoon 2 pretty much had the aftermentioned feature. if your steam locomotive runs out of water its top speed drops sharply
07:42<Fori>Yeah.
07:42<Fori>Or they had to "refuel" sand ^^
07:42<Fori>RT 2 was so awesome :D
07:43<Eddi|zuHause4>seems my new modem works...
07:43-!-Eddi|zuHause4 is now known as Eddi|zuHause
07:44<Fori>Anyone has a car set in mind that has some PS power in 1920-1930?
07:45<Eddi|zuHause>now i can finally get a 21st century internet connection!
07:45<Fori>Congratulations!
07:45<Fori>Who even uses modems today? ^^
07:45<__ln__>probably most people here.
07:46<Fori>Well.
07:46<Fori>Most of use "routers" don't they?
07:46<Fori>Sure, the modem is integrated.
07:46<Fori>But the last time i've seen a real modem without any other features is quite some time away.
07:47<drac_boy>fori heh actually which 'modem' are you thinking of?
07:47<drac_boy>since theres cable modem and dsl modem .. and to confuse things more, how about cell data modems too?
07:47-!-k-man [~Jason@ppp167-253-181.static.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
07:47*orudge has a modem at his new house
07:47<@orudge>an ADSL2+ modem
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07:48<@orudge>it does routing as well, but it isn't a switch and it isn't a wireless router
07:48<Fori>I got some thing called "integrated access device" ... Everything is plugged there.
07:48<Fori>Computers, WLan(literally NOT plugged), USB printers and the telephone.
07:48<Fori>xD
07:50<Fori>Just curious, are you guys playing with the acceleration models on "original" or "realistic"?
07:50<drac_boy>always realistic for me all the times
07:50<drac_boy>then again I never use the original vehicles anymore
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07:51<Fori>Well.
07:51<Fori>If I use realistic some weird things happen.
07:52<Fori>Some GRF set with cars gets only accelerated to like 2km/h
07:52<Fori>^^
07:54<drac_boy>by cars you mean rv right?
07:58<drac_boy>fori if thats the case, certain grfs do have a bug with accerlation for some vehicles
07:58-!-FLHerne [~francis_h@dsl-217-155-24-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #openttd
07:59<drac_boy>especially when the horse trams are reported as 0kN which explains why they barely can move :-/
07:59<drac_boy>hi flherne had a good sleep? (funny enough I almost mixed up you with fori)
08:00<FLHerne>drac_boy: Yes, thanks
08:00*FLHerne goes off to buy milk
08:00<__ln__>what, there's a *realistic* acceleration mode? was that approved of by Belugas?
08:00<Fori>rv? Drac?
08:00<drac_boy>fori short to Road Vehicles although trams also are lumped into that category for the game too
08:01<Eddi|zuHause>__ln__: i fear that was implemented before his time :)
08:01<Fori>Yeah. Right. Then I ment an RV set ^^
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08:03<drac_boy>FLHerne when you're back, what kind of milk do you like?
08:07<Fori>Is it a "big" thing to change some newGRF things like the text of something ?
08:07<drac_boy>text? not so much
08:08<drac_boy>and you could even change the error messages too if you wanted
08:08<Fori>Cause it' squite annoying when using DBSetXL and my friend just bough the "BR 05" and is now complaining that there's nothing in the description of that train saying that it's not able to carry some goods waggons.
08:09<drac_boy>fori umm thats because BR05 is an express passenger steam locomotive
08:10<Mazur>Yes, weird, that, Inever knew before that locomotives were particular about the nature of the load behind them.
08:10<drac_boy>try something between class 40 and 56, not sure exactly what was included in dbsetxl again (thinking of too many other things now)
08:10<Fori>I know now drac.
08:11<Fori>But it's still not a good style if you're not leaving the users a message
08:11<Fori>About how it will works.
08:11<drac_boy>and btw fori dbsetxl likely does not have any of them but class 97 through 99 are for rack or NG locomotives
08:11<drac_boy>fori...you need to know the trains...error messages are not for that :)
08:11<Fori>Not everybody is familiar with train history. I checked out the BR 05 @ wiki so now I know it.
08:11<Fori>^^
08:12<drac_boy>fori the only one thing I do hate is when I can't use express mail wagons with MU trains for some strange reason tho :-/
08:12<drac_boy>I mean sure the loco ends can be refitted for mail but its often of weak capacity
08:14<Fori>MU ?
08:14<drac_boy>Multiply Units
08:14<drac_boy>DMU, EMU, etc
08:14<drac_boy>although sometimes the term varies along railroads or countries
08:15<drac_boy>like in usa you would have the Budd RDC instead which is short for Rail Diesel Car but its really still a DMU
08:15<Fori>Interesting. You seem to be into that stuff ^^
08:16<drac_boy>just some things :p
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08:16<drac_boy>hi glx :)
08:17<drac_boy>fori did you know that the word 'mallet' is actually supposed to mean a locomotive with two seperate set of drivers but one is for high pressure pistons and other for low pressure pistons aka compound
08:17<drac_boy>but of course usa and many other places had to corrupt the term with the simple articulated which uses four equal pistons instead
08:20<Fori>Ah, k.
08:20<Fori>I am curious again. What rate of town growth with FIRS do you consider realistic or fair?
08:21<drac_boy>fori I may be wrong but theres Garrat which basically means a locomotive with two set of drivers but...each drivers are on their own fixed chassis while the boiler and cab are on a third chassis suspended between the aforementioned two
08:21<drac_boy>africa had a good large number of them both small (think 0-4-0+0-4-0) and large (think 4-8-2+2-8-4 or close)
08:22<drac_boy>town growth? fori to be honest I think the growth rate is often too fast in most games :) I always go with a quite slow rate myself
08:23<Fori>Thanks, drac.
08:23<drac_boy>fori you mind if I ramble on more about steam locomotives? :)
08:24<FLHerne>drac_boy: UK had a few Garratts...I wish someone would draw the LMS type for TTD :P
08:24<drac_boy>FLHerne I think the LMS were a bit troubled. they did work the Lickey Incline for a while but were off the list for good not too long afterward
08:25<drac_boy>although I guess some people could like them for in the game tho, providing breakdown was reduced or off
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08:25<FLHerne>We took too long to modernise things - the train lengths they were built to pull didn't fit in loops, and sometimes broke the couplings
08:26<drac_boy>FLHerne I'm sounding a bit like Lionel when they produced the S2 steam locomotive :) only one example existed for real but hundreds existed in model form
08:28<Rhamphoryncus>I've started to turn off towns can build roads. Previously I would tend to avoid service in a town because it'd get annoying
08:29<drac_boy>Rhamphoryncus heh I always build the town roads for them myself, keeps the layout more sane especially when going around a rail station
08:29<drac_boy>its easy to do since the towns grow at very slow rate so I only have to check every few years at the most
08:30<Rhamphoryncus>They'd continue to do stupid things, which'd drive me nuts
08:30<drac_boy>like what?
08:31<Rhamphoryncus>hrm. I had it set to 3x3 grid, which probably made it worse
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08:31<Rhamphoryncus>A road at the edge of the ocean. It's part of the grid so it'd always be rebuilt
08:31<drac_boy>FLHerne how about the MK1 coaches?
08:32<FLHerne>What about them?
08:32<drac_boy>like them or not so much/
08:32<drac_boy>?*
08:32<FLHerne>They're ok, but not much better than Stanier Type IIIs
08:33<FLHerne>Mk2s were revolutionary, on the other hand, and Mk3s are just awesome
08:33<drac_boy>FLHerne I may be the odd one here but I kind of prefer steel chassis wood body coaches myself
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08:34<FLHerne>Teaks certainly look nice...metal-bodies ride better and are safer though :P
08:37<drac_boy>well I'm thinking more about cost and longevity. but then mind you if I was to build new rails it would had not even been standard gauge at all
08:39<drac_boy>FLHerne what kind of climate mechanisms would you had put in your coaches if you were to build them?
08:40<V453000>hi, the stolen trees on bananas are replaced by newtrees or are they 2 separate newgrfs and stolen trees were removed from bananas? I though nothing can be removed from there but it seems like it was
08:41<FLHerne>drac_boy: climate mechanisms?
08:42<FLHerne>I'm not sure if there even is a climate here :P
08:42<drac_boy>I meant as in heat, etc
08:43<drac_boy>didn't know what word to use now sorry heh
08:44<FLHerne>Probably pressure ventilation as on some Mk2s then
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08:44<FLHerne>ful aircon seems unnecessary with the weather here
08:45<@planetmaker>V453000, they were made unavailable for general download on request of the author.
08:45<drac_boy>flherne heh hm you want know what I would had done to all my coaches regardingly of the order?
08:45<FLHerne>drac_boy: ok#
08:45<@planetmaker>You surely saw the drama at tt-forums?
08:47<V453000>oh, then my assumptions were correct
08:47<V453000>yeah I saw that
08:47<V453000>I will stay politically correct and wont comment on that :p
08:47<V453000>thanks for answer anyway ... I didnt think it is possible to make some content unavailable :(
08:48<Fori>Maybe someone is here who can help with FIRS. Will primary industries e.g. Ore mines "level up" like they do in vanilla OpenTTD? Even if they're not supplied?
08:49<dihedral>oi
08:49<Fori>By level up I mean ofc improve production.
08:49<drac_boy>FLHerne two axle-driven generators (one per truck for bogie carriages), small battery pack on one side balanced by the ac system and water tank on other side, a single stall-sized washroom at one end of the coach (with oversized-luggages space opposite to it), rely on train steam heating for economy reason. and provide split windows with small bars on the openable half for safety reason
08:49<Rhamphoryncus>Fori: no, if they need farmsup/engsup then they won't increase without it
08:50<Rhamphoryncus>(note that manufacturing supplies, despite the similarity, are just an ordinary input material. Not needed.)
08:50<Fori>But with they will?
08:50<Fori>Is there some wiki explaining the "level up" mechanisms like there is for ECS?
08:51<Fori>Cause I quite don't like those schemes with rvs loading up small amounts of supplies and stuff.
08:51<Fori>And would like to know if it's possible to make em increase without those supplies.
08:51<Fori>Or at least, without those rv mechanic.
08:52<Rhamphoryncus>Well, there is a patch with firs to expand on farmsup/engsup to be a reasonable amount, and to have a stockpile for several months. Hasn't been accepted yet though.
08:53<andythenorth>some of the RV mechanics smell
08:53<drac_boy>FLHerne one way I see this is that in winter its easy to put on additional coats while waiting for rescue in case of breakdown but..in summers its a different story hence going with the well-known axle>gen>compressor to keep some warm/cold air blowing for a reasonable length of halted time
08:53<FLHerne>drac_boy: Why were you planning coach design in such detail?
08:53<Fori>Is there any way to get it "anyway" Rhmapho?
08:54<drac_boy>FLHerne I don't know, just me :-p I keep thinking about building a real metre railway many times but I doubt I'll ever be able to do it for real (read: stupid insurance rate and overly-safety laws)
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08:54<Fori>Because those rv ideas are quite a game breaker for me with FIRS ^^
08:54<Rhamphoryncus>It's on the bugtracker, but you'd have to apply it an recompile FIRS yourself
08:54<drac_boy>flherne that answers you I hope? :-)
08:54<drac_boy>andythenorth how so?
08:54<Fori>Is that... hard?
08:55<andythenorth>I just find the RV reverse-piglets odd
08:55<FLHerne>drac_boy: :o
08:55<Rhamphoryncus>andythenorth: the farmsup/engsup thing?
08:55<andythenorth>yup
08:55<Fori>Rhampho? I mean recomplining firs?
08:56<andythenorth>I designed it so that players would use RVs over medium distances, from a source of supplies, or lots of RVs collecting from a transfer station
08:56<Rhamphoryncus>it's not trivial
08:56<andythenorth>but there's this weird alternative where trains deliver lots of supplies to one industry, then a 1 tile RV is used to deliver them
08:56<andythenorth>which illustrates several things
08:56<andythenorth>- there's nothing so strange as folk
08:56<andythenorth>- unintended consequences
08:57<Rhamphoryncus>aye
08:57<andythenorth>- also...bad maths
08:57<Fori>Sorry andy : (
08:57<Rhamphoryncus>It's not AS bad with the patch.. but it still has a smell
08:57<andythenorth>at the start of game, supplies are in....short supply. This 1-tile RV method spreads the available supplies in a very inefficient way
08:58<andythenorth>and no, there's no way to use default production increase behaviour with FIRS ;)
08:58<andythenorth>although patching for it would be trivial
08:58<andythenorth>it's a couple of lines and recompile
08:59<andythenorth>(more if you want to change the text)
08:59<andythenorth>and compiling is trivial, if you have *all* the required tools
08:59<Rhamphoryncus>I think the real problem is that it goes against the flow of the game. The game is almost always (pax/mail excepted) volume based and concentrating to a single industry. There's no need to time, share, or coordinate other than having enough capacity.
09:00<andythenorth>I think that's probably true
09:00<andythenorth>but also silly
09:00<Fori>I'll be brb eating ^^
09:01<Fori>Didnt want to make it all such a big discussion ^^
09:01<Rhamphoryncus>Unrealistic perhaps, but it IS part of the game. Without cargodist or YACD you HAVE to jump through hoops to spread cargo back out to multiple drops
09:02<Rhamphoryncus>Not to mention the infrastructure is a ton more work
09:02<andythenorth>it made sense on a 64x64 map, with only one steel mill
09:02<Rhamphoryncus>lol
09:02<andythenorth>but it's borderline tedious on a big map
09:02<andythenorth>however
09:02<drac_boy>Rhamphoryncus or just simply use short trains rather than trying to load up one long train?
09:03<andythenorth>supplies were invented simply to provide a use for some vehicles that were going to be added to HEQS
09:03<FLHerne>Helicopters do supplies in a conveniently non-micromanaged way :P
09:03<andythenorth>those vehicles were never added, rendering supplies somewhat pointless
09:03<Rhamphoryncus>Well I did have one good thing on my last game: autorefit of oil -> petrol -> engsup -> oil. Mind you, the engsup wasn't part of the autorefit. Had a single car tacked on the end for that.
09:03<Rhamphoryncus>drac_boy: short trains alone won't do it. You'll get a burst every time you have a delivery. The entire chain would have to be short
09:04<Rhamphoryncus>FLHerne: still requires manual balancing
09:04<andythenorth>what is this balancing problem?
09:05<andythenorth>I have never encountered it :P
09:05<Rhamphoryncus>oh, probably because I've been playing with the patch and have actual consumption
09:05<FLHerne>As long as x thousand crates are available, balancing is a non-issue :P
09:05<andythenorth>they end up massively over-abundant :P
09:06<andythenorth>I run out of places to send them :P
09:06<FLHerne>x being some number about 5x the number of supplied industries, normally
09:06<andythenorth>Rhamphoryncus: does the patch increase micro-management?
09:06<Rhamphoryncus>hrm. I'd say so, yes :(
09:07<Rhamphoryncus>Because it makes them meaningful, rather than a joke.
09:07<drac_boy>is there anything that a gondola can specifically carry that a flatcar or hopper can't?
09:08*FLHerne rarely sees aggregate loaded on flatcars or in hoppers
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09:09<Rhamphoryncus>I had a game a bit ago with 14 farms in one area. I used a central transfer station with a scummy non-uniform station loop to spread them out. It'd fluctuate between over-supplied and under-supplied. It was never "right".
09:10<drac_boy>aggregate hmm. flherne you think that to avoid one more wagon id the flatcar could just simply sport a different sprite with the low sides for to carry aggregate cargo? considering its similar empty weight
09:10<andythenorth>Rhamphoryncus: meh
09:10<andythenorth>that's one of the reasons I never wanted to make it more complicated
09:10<andythenorth>:P
09:11<FLHerne>Stockiling for a while makes sense imo - it's the need for insanely frequent deliveries that's a nuisance
09:11<Rhamphoryncus>I'd still have that with stock, but I'd have to under-consume on that loop and blindfold myself not to notice the massive backlog
09:11<Rhamphoryncus>FLHerne: the patch has a 6 month stockpile. Still a PITA.
09:12<andythenorth>Rhamphoryncus: give in
09:12<andythenorth>make it unlimited
09:12<andythenorth>allow 20k tons to be delivered at once
09:12<andythenorth>consume at 1t per month
09:12<andythenorth>deliver once
09:12<Rhamphoryncus>lol
09:12<andythenorth>play rest of game
09:12<andythenorth>problem solved
09:12<andythenorth>that's what players actually want
09:12<Rhamphoryncus>sadly :(
09:12*andythenorth should be less cyncial
09:12<andythenorth>or even cynical
09:13<andythenorth>the correct answer is that supplies should be removed
09:13<andythenorth>but every time I propose this, there is much expression of woe and sadness
09:13<Rhamphoryncus>Less cynical: what can replace it that's interesting, without being a pita?
09:13<andythenorth>no supplies
09:13<andythenorth>they go against the game
09:14<Rhamphoryncus>... farm supply store?
09:14<andythenorth>deprecated
09:14<Rhamphoryncus>Just like a hardware store
09:14<Rhamphoryncus>really?
09:14<andythenorth>tried
09:14<andythenorth>doesn't work
09:14<andythenorth>seriously the best patch would be one that removes supplies and all associated industries
09:14<andythenorth>I give you commit rights
09:14<drac_boy>flherne?
09:14<andythenorth>you get all the blame
09:14<Rhamphoryncus>Well it'd be just-another-industry
09:14<drac_boy>heh andythenorth
09:14<Rhamphoryncus>heh
09:15<andythenorth>then submit a new patch
09:16<andythenorth>'all industries have max production that never falls'
09:16<andythenorth>and then another patch
09:16<andythenorth>'super giant maps'
09:16<andythenorth>and then another patch
09:16<andythenorth>'super giant flying maglevs'
09:16<@planetmaker>super giant maps?
09:16<andythenorth>@calc 2048 ^ 2
09:16<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: Error: Something in there wasn't a valid number.
09:16<@planetmaker>I'd say: it exists. But...
09:17<andythenorth>@calc 2048 * 2048
09:17<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: 4194304
09:17<andythenorth>planetmaker ^ that big along each edge
09:17<andythenorth>maglevs at 1 million miles an hour, 1 million ton capacity
09:17<andythenorth>hmm
09:17<andythenorth>did I say yesterday I should be less cynical?
09:17<V453000>yeah! and maximum of 1 million vehicles per company
09:17<Rhamphoryncus>oh, the old farm supply depot isn't what I was suggesting
09:18<drac_boy>@calc 256 * 4096
09:18<@DorpsGek>drac_boy: 1048576
09:18<V453000>and a monster cpu for everybody
09:18<andythenorth>V453000: minimum of 1 million vehicles per company
09:18<andythenorth>you start each game with 1 million vehicles
09:18<drac_boy>maybe try that for somewhat more relastic long distance high speed trains :)
09:18<V453000>:DDD
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09:18<Rhamphoryncus>I just meant as a drop for farm supplies, so you could keep the production chain while eliminating it from individual farms
09:18<andythenorth>meh
09:18<andythenorth>farms should be one industry
09:18<drac_boy>V453000 I rarely get into high vehicles even with a busy network. so I wouldn't care for a 2 thousand vehicles limit :)
09:18<Rhamphoryncus>yeah
09:18<andythenorth>e.g. 20 'farm' graphics comprises a 'farm'
09:19<drac_boy>heh
09:19*andythenorth might do something more worthwhile
09:19<Rhamphoryncus>That we can do
09:19<andythenorth>bbl
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09:19<Rhamphoryncus>:/
09:20<drac_boy>anyone else think that using a flatcar with new sprites for low sides to carry aggregate could work without any gameplay issues?
09:20*Mazur thinks FIRS supplies are fun, especially since it's not much that's needed.
09:21<drac_boy>heh mazur
09:21<Mazur>Gives a contrasting network image to the regular loads.
09:21<FLHerne>Add a parameter option for supplies delivery options - "monthly"/"stockpiling"/"whatever other option gets invented" :P
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09:22<Mazur>What I find a pita is industries disappearing after you've build your station, even after the first load has been shipped.
09:23<Mazur>And secondary industries hanging around even though you never use them./
09:23<Rhamphoryncus>drac_boy: just sounds like a magic "do anything" car
09:23<Rhamphoryncus>Mazur: yeah
09:24<Rhamphoryncus>hrm. Maybe a 12 month stockpile with 1 consumption/month would work
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09:24<Rhamphoryncus>If serious doesn't work then make it even more of a joke ;)
09:25<drac_boy>Rhamphoryncus heh I was just wondering about having to use up another id just for one cargo or not :)
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09:25<drac_boy>considering other cargos can do without a gondola
09:25<Rhamphoryncus>drac_boy: can't say I understand what id limits there are
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09:25<drac_boy>not just limit but the work to code it .. and counting sprites
09:26<drac_boy>:)
09:26<Mazur>Who's counting sprites? I'm not. Crows, maybe.....
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09:28<drac_boy>mazur a grf is made up of sprites so :)
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09:38<Mazur>drac_boy, you could always make the Further Reunited Industrial Totality Set: all the primaries and secondaries of the various sets minus the supply chains. That'd give large maps something to fill them with.
09:38<Mazur>Using the reguilar increase system.
09:38<Mazur>-i
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09:41<drac_boy>mazur not my kind of thing sorry :)
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09:46<drac_boy>going out for a bit now, will be back later tho :p
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09:52<Fori>Rhamphoryncus? When there's two e.g. mines next to each other, with one station having both of em in it's reach will delivering the goods to that station split em between the two?
09:52<Rhamphoryncus>Nope
09:53<Fori>Right.
09:53<Rhamphoryncus>The game picks one (afaik based on the center of the station (obvious) and the center of the industry (not obvious), and sticks with it
09:53<Fori>k
09:55<Fori>Is it that bad when only once every couple of months a train with a huge load comes?
09:55<Fori>Will the industry increase the production?
09:55<Rhamphoryncus>Much less so
09:55<Rhamphoryncus>Only that month has a chance of increasing
09:56<Fori>Right.
09:56<Fori>Oh wow, that's really annoying me right now ^^
09:56<Rhamphoryncus>hehe
09:56<Fori>That's a thing I like about the ECS storages...
09:56<Fori>or well, stockpiles.
09:57<Fori>Are there any plans on making that patch official?
10:01<lugo>ecs is not a patch, it's a newgrf
10:02<Fori>I know. But there's a patch trying to fix the concerns I have against FIRS which is quite similar to the stockpile system of ECS:
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10:12<@planetmaker>that won't be fixed
10:12<@planetmaker>or rather "fixed"
10:12<Rhamphoryncus>Fori: it just exasperates the underlying problem
10:13<@planetmaker>Using NewGRFs works well and allows more or less arbitrary systems as devised by the NewGRF authors desires
10:13<Rhamphoryncus>planetmaker: he's talking about FIRS
10:13<Rhamphoryncus>farmsup/engsup
10:13<@planetmaker>hm, right. Well. there the answer is 'yes, it should be fixed"
10:14<@planetmaker>And IIRC you, Rhamphoryncus did some work on that matter :-)
10:14<Rhamphoryncus>should be, but so far the only solution is to rip it out :/
10:14<Rhamphoryncus>Yes, but as I say it just exasperates the problem
10:14<@planetmaker>well, I try or tried to implement something which keeps last delivery date and a manual stockpile kind of
10:14<Rhamphoryncus>Openttd is not good at spreading cargo out
10:14<@planetmaker>but maybe one should use a real stockpile but just no limit for it (or rather 64k units)
10:15<@planetmaker>no, the spreading out won't be solved by that. Rather can't
10:15<@planetmaker>that's a issue (or non-issue, depending on view)
10:15<Rhamphoryncus>it's *the* issue
10:15<@planetmaker>the solution is simply to build a distribution centre and deliver locally from that to the individual industries.
10:15<@planetmaker>It's even realistic ;-)
10:16<Rhamphoryncus>No, that's still finicky. Requires lots of micro management
10:16<@planetmaker>so macro management is "send some trains between arbitrary points A and B" and then expect that everything works?
10:16<@planetmaker>industries are the building blocks which define supply / demand
10:17<Rhamphoryncus>The normal behaviour is A, B, and C all go to D, which goes to E
10:17<@planetmaker>Thus it's imho ok in a transport game that they require individual attention
10:17<Rhamphoryncus>And you just build enough to handle the volume
10:17<Rhamphoryncus>There's no competition for cargo
10:17<@planetmaker>you don't sell the cargo. You get only paid for delivery.
10:17<@planetmaker>And the industry which receives it pays you
10:17<@planetmaker>why should the other one get it?
10:18<@planetmaker>I won't pay you either, if you ship my computer to the neibouring town
10:18<@planetmaker>it's just not good enough
10:19<Rhamphoryncus>You misunderstand. You drop a trainload of farmsup at your distribution centre. This has trucks going to 5 separate farms, with multiple for each farm due to the spread. However, on this batch only one farm gets supplied
10:20<@planetmaker>you mean as you can only supply full truck loads?
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10:20<@planetmaker>Use small trucks :-)
10:20<Rhamphoryncus>yes
10:20<Rhamphoryncus>Micromanagement
10:20<Rhamphoryncus>There's only so many options
10:20<@planetmaker>I suggest the forklift from HEQS
10:20<@planetmaker>1t
10:20<Rhamphoryncus>Forklifts are stupid :P
10:20<@planetmaker>not micromanagement really... just choosing the appropriate vehicle
10:21<Rhamphoryncus>You still end up with 50 different routes across your map, with unhandled cargo piled up everywhere
10:21<Rhamphoryncus>Once setup, if it actually works you have essentially infinite supplies
10:21<Rhamphoryncus>So the entire thing exists just to say you did it. Why bother?
10:23<Rhamphoryncus>I've tried all manor of different schemes. None of them were fun.
10:24<@planetmaker>Rhamphoryncus, I'd use one route only for all forklifts. They service all adjacent industries in sequential order
10:24<@planetmaker>goto pickup, goto A, goto pickup, goto B, goto pickup, goto C, goto pickup, goto D
10:24<Rhamphoryncus>Done that too. Clumpy.
10:24<@planetmaker>works very well actually
10:24<Rhamphoryncus>Didn't for me
10:25<Rhamphoryncus>With a timetable patch maybe
10:25<@planetmaker>also without. You can force a wait via timetable already now
10:25<Rhamphoryncus>..
10:26<Eddi|zuHause>just make sure the timetable lasts 30 days
10:26<Rhamphoryncus>So you have 20 forklifts going to A, then 20 to pickup, then 20 to B, then 20 to pickup..
10:26<Eddi|zuHause>if it takes multiples of 30 days, use multiple forklifts
10:26<Eddi|zuHause>or gmund mogs
10:27<Rhamphoryncus>I'm assuming multiple forklifts
10:27<Eddi|zuHause>you only need one supply per month
10:27<Rhamphoryncus>If your farms are close enough to be serviced by 1 then they're close enough that the pickup actually catches from all
10:28<Rhamphoryncus>Which just makes you realize how silly the behaviour is
10:28<Eddi|zuHause>so what is your problem?
10:29<Rhamphoryncus>Why bother? It's nothing more than an hour setting up a copy-and-paste job, identical to your last 20 games, with nothing interesting. A waste of time.
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11:03<andythenorth>@seen pikka
11:03<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: pikka was last seen in #openttd 18 hours, 34 minutes, and 6 seconds ago: <Pikka> because you can't get the wood you know
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11:27<Fori>Intersting discussion Rhampho.
11:27<Fori>Is there some console function to give a player cash in a MP game?
11:30<Fori>I mean, as a dedicated server.
11:33<Eddi|zuHause>no
11:34<Eddi|zuHause>but you might be able to do that through the admin port
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11:35<Eddi|zuHause>why is there no crontab on fritzbox?
11:39*andythenorth struggles for witty answer
11:39*andythenorth fails
11:45<Rhamphoryncus>crontab is failtab?
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12:44<@Terkhen>hello
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12:57<NGC3982>hi
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13:01<Fori>Did the algorithm for replacing trains change?
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13:02<Fori>In 1.2?
13:02<Fori>Cause I think in my current game it's not working very well.
13:02<Fori>The trains which should be replaced just cross the depot not caring about my orders.
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13:11<Fori>Wow. That took like 10 minutes to replace that one train?
13:11<Fori>I dunno if that's all running correct ^^
13:16<Eddi|zuHause2>the algorithm was changed to only visit the depot for replacement if the maintenance interval ran out
13:17<Eddi|zuHause2>to avoid trains all going to the depot at the same time, and also to avoid a train repeatedly going to depot because the replacement failed
13:17<Fori>Right! Thanks!
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13:37<Wolf01>evening o/
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13:42<@Alberth>o/ Wolf01
13:44<NGC3982>http://i.imgur.com/IpIZs.jpg
13:44<NGC3982>there is so much win in that man.
13:44<NGC3982>http://i.imgur.com/vynW8.png
13:44<NGC3982>and there is no win at all in those people.
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13:55<Fori>Eddie?
13:55<Fori>May I pm you some question in German?
13:56<Fori>As it seems I'm not able to find the words in English.
13:57<Eddi|zuHause>yay XML!
13:57<Wolf01>NGC3982, the first image is what make me put trust on the humanity, the second one is what make me feel as I want to kill as many people as possible
13:58<Eddi|zuHause>command to remotely tell the FritzBox to reconnect: curl "http://fritz.box:49000/upnp/control/WANIPConn1" -H "Content-Type: text/xml; charset="utf-8"" -H "SoapAction: urn:schemas-upnp-org:service:WANIPConnection:1#ForceTermination" -d '<?xml version="1.0" encoding="utf-8"?><s:Envelope s:encodingStyle="http://schemas.xmlsoap.org/soap/encoding/" xmlns:s="http://schemas.xmlsoap.org/soap/envelope/"><s:Body><u:ForceTermination xmlns:u="urn:
13:58<Eddi|zuHause>schemas-upnp-org:service:WANIPConnection:1" /></s:Body></s:Envelope>'
13:58<NGC3982>Wolf01: yes, indeed.
13:58<Fori>Don't you like XML Eddi? ^^
13:58<NGC3982>seriosly, the common knowledge among kids born in the nighties is horrible.
13:58<SpComb>easy
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13:59<Fori>Well. Maybe anyone else knows. I'll try it in English. Does the replacement of trains watch out that it doesnt replace trains which can't be fit to that kind of waggon the old train used?
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14:00<SpComb>and the Costa Concordia was "like a real-life Titanic"
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14:10<Fori>Anyone has experience with BaseCostMod?
14:11<V453000>maybe
14:11<Fori>Seems like I'm unable to adjust the costs for industry building.
14:12<V453000>do you have any industry set like FIRS loaded?
14:12<Fori>No.
14:13<V453000>hm
14:13<V453000>should work normally then
14:13<Fori>Maybe some other GRF is interfering.
14:13<Fori>I'll try clean.
14:14<@planetmaker>changing basecost mods post game-creation usually is not a good idea
14:14<Fori>It's not post game planet.
14:14<Fori>Seems like some other GRF is interfering.
14:14<Fori>Works without any.
14:15<Fori>But hm.
14:15<Fori>Total Town replacement maybe?
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14:15<andythenorth>NGC3982: when were you born?
14:16<NGC3982>andythenorth: in 1987. in sweden, we are (until 1989) the last of the full public school educational breed.
14:16<Fori>Right. It was the fault of "DBSetXL"
14:16<andythenorth>so here's the funny thing about kids born in the eighties
14:17<NGC3982>since 1990, the grades of swedish students are falling into complete ridicule.
14:17<andythenorth>it's not common knowledge among eighties kids (yet) that every generation thinks the following generation lacks common knowledge :P
14:17<NGC3982>well, of course, that is true.
14:17<NGC3982>though, this time its different.
14:17<NGC3982>as stated above.
14:18<andythenorth>NGC3982: it's the fault of video games
14:18<NGC3982>surely not. me and my eighties friends played games too.
14:18<andythenorth>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marcus_Brigstocke#Pac-Man_joke
14:19<NGC3982>hehe
14:20<Fori>What's "auto refittable"? Does that mean when the train is replacing some other it's automatic refitted? Referring to UKRS here.
14:20<NGC3982>the problem (at least in sweden) as i see it, lies in kids growing up in a society where it's "lame" to be and act as a kid.
14:20<NGC3982>people are for some reason supposed to stop play with toys and games when they turn 10, and immediately start acting as adults.
14:21<NGC3982>which for a ten year old often means "ill do what i want".
14:21<NGC3982>and that kind of makes the recipe of crap-cake.
14:21<supermop>i think 10 year olds did that 40 years ago
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14:21<NGC3982>well, why does it affect us so badly right now?
14:22<supermop>and 'do what i want' is child like, not adult like
14:22<NGC3982>yes, that is kind of what i mea.
14:22<NGC3982>+n.
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14:22<supermop>if they were acting like adults they would have mortgages and boring jobs
14:22<NGC3982>and, i fail to see ten year olds being a profitable market for lingerie in the seventees.
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14:23<@planetmaker>Fori, refit possible in stations
14:23<@planetmaker>to match available cargo
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14:26<Fori>Mh.
14:26<Fori>I don't get it.
14:26<Fori>^^
14:27<@planetmaker>do you play OpenTTD 1.2.0-RCx ?
14:27<@planetmaker>if not: it's an unavailable feature in earlier versions
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14:32<Fori>I do.
14:32<Fori>I mean I play 1.2.0 RC4
14:38<Fori>Planetmaker? Can you explain?
14:40<@planetmaker>checkout the available orders of such vehicle.
14:41<@planetmaker>e.g. if you have a wagon which can carry coal, ore, ... and you have it go to a station which has both, the wagon will refit to what is available more
14:46<@Alberth>I obviously do not play openttd enough :)
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14:49<@planetmaker>Alberth: few vehicles support that yet. You'll need the correct newgrf(s)
14:50<@planetmaker>seems like ukrs2 does.
14:51<@Alberth>oh, does opengfx+ do? that's the only vehicle newgrf I play with
14:51<@Alberth>probably not yet :)
14:51<Fori>Wow, nice planet.
14:51<Fori>Well. UKRS has at least some hints about it,
14:52<@Alberth>yes planetmaker makes very nice planets
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14:53<Fori>I'm sorry :X
14:53-!-goodger [~ben@94-30-43-248.xdsl.murphx.net] has quit []
14:54<Fori>So, for my new game I adjusted the WAS airplanes to cost 138.000.000€ for an A380
14:54<Fori>That seems cool to me.
14:56<@planetmaker>Alberth, it does support it
14:56<@planetmaker>(I think I was first ;-) )
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14:57<@Alberth>nice :)
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15:04*NGC3982 humbly asks for a new jupiter without the twat face storm.
15:04<@planetmaker>woot? A new...? It's the king of the planets!
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15:05<NGC3982>well, that red thing has been bugging me
15:05<NGC3982>it disturbes the feng shui of the solar system.
15:06<@planetmaker>hardly. Given that every other planet with atmosphere has storms, too
15:06<Fori>What's the main difference between realistic and original acceleration models?
15:07<@planetmaker>http://wiki.openttd.org/Train_acceleration_model
15:07<@planetmaker>^^ good page. Also called manual
15:08<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: you need a new king occasionally
15:08<Fori>Wow. I've been reading game mechanics all day long must be blind.
15:08<Fori>Thanks!
15:10<@planetmaker>The king is dead. Long live the king?
15:10<Eddi|zuHause>exactly
15:11<@planetmaker>http://exoplanet.eu/planet.php?p1=CoRoT-3&p2=b <-- bigger, hotter, faster
15:11<NGC3982>planetmaker: a four day orbital?
15:11<NGC3982>planetmaker: neat..
15:12<@planetmaker>rather common ;-)
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15:12<@planetmaker>http://exoplanet.eu/planet.php?p1=55+Cnc&p2=e
15:13<@planetmaker>55 Cancri is a nice system
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15:14<NGC3982>what does the "M.sin i" represent?
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15:14<@planetmaker>i is the (unknown) inclination with which we look at that system's ecliptic plane. Thus we only know M * sin i of the companions' mass
15:15<NGC3982>ah, i see
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15:17<Eddi|zuHause><planetmaker> rather common ;-) <-- you mean "those are just the easiest to find" ;)
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15:19*NGC3982 jazz + mat'34 "Vlieg. Holl."
15:19<@planetmaker>They are easy to find. But statistics and observation time are good enough to know probabilitiy of planets with orbital periods smaller than ~10 ... 15 years
15:20<NGC3982>i just realized that vlieg. holl. is dutch for 'the flying dutchmen'
15:21<NGC3982>planetmaker: im a bit new to this. i guess one can easily find lots of exoplanets with orbital time under a few days, since short observations of stars reveals a small dip in light.
15:22<NGC3982>and the small wobble of some stars, i guess
15:22<NGC3982>but, how do we find exoplanets with orbital periods exceeding years?
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15:23<Eddi|zuHause>if you're observing light variation, you need ~2.5 revolutions
15:24<Eddi|zuHause>0.5 in average to see the first variation, 1 to see the second variation, and 1 to confirm your measurements
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15:25<NGC3982>i see
15:25<Eddi|zuHause>that means to find a planet with a period of 15 years you have to observe the same star regularly for almost 40 years
15:26<NGC3982>and we have no alternative methods of finding them?
15:26<@Alberth>the question is whether it is of interest to find such planets, given our narrow idea of life
15:26<NGC3982>Alberth: well, if science allows faster methods, its a sure pleasure of mapping space.
15:26<@Alberth>NGC3982: probably it exists, we just haven't found it
15:26<NGC3982>and with importance, determing the number of actual planets in the universe.
15:26<NGC3982>Alberth: i see.
15:27<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause: you can deduce orbits from less than 2.5 revolutions
15:27<@Alberth>NGC3982: why is the number of planets relevant?
15:28<NGC3982>Alberth: it gives us a good measurement on where most of the mass in the universe is placed.
15:28<@Alberth>almost infinite seems a quite adequate guestimate to me :p
15:28<@planetmaker>NGC3982: the planets' mass is negligible
15:28<@planetmaker>irrespective of how many there are
15:29<NGC3982>i dissagree. even though it might not be very useful, its still a neat way to map up areas as we see them.
15:30<NGC3982>oh wait, i dont dissagree
15:30<NGC3982>i disagree. :(
15:30<Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: you should be able to do that much faster with CSI technology
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15:30<Eddi|zuHause>if you assume our solar system is somewhat "average", then you can deduce the number of planets by comparing planet mass to solar mass, and applying that ratio to galaxy mass
15:30<Rubidium>you just need small reflective surfaces at right angles at the right distances
15:31<@planetmaker>given radial velocity measurements you can be reasonably sure about a companion when you got a significant amount of a single period
15:31<NGC3982>Eddi|zuHause: yes, thats true. but the "somewhat average" can surely be deduced to a new decimal with data on other solar systems.
15:31<@planetmaker>as you know the Keplerian laws. Further measurements then usually only make it more precise
15:31*NGC3982 needs to google that.
15:32<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause: the assumption that our solar system is average, probably is wrong
15:32<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: yes. i specifically said light variation, not speaking about other measurements like velocity
15:32<@planetmaker>as only about 15% of all stars have planets
15:32<NGC3982>well, i guess you are right. though, i still dream of a feature where we have mapped and named -everything-,
15:33<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause: if you can measure transits, you can measure the radial velocity
15:33<NGC3982>future*.
15:33<NGC3982>for god sake.
15:33<NGC3982>i really need to read up on my english.
15:33<NGC3982>im getting sick of googling words every time i want to talk about cosmology.
15:34<@planetmaker>I'm actually happy that this is not cosmology ;-)
15:34<__ln__>exoplanets are not cosmology, indeed
15:34<@planetmaker>I'm quite bad at cosmology :-P
15:34<Rubidium>NGC3982: then talk about astrology
15:34<NGC3982>astronomy*.
15:34<NGC3982>bah.
15:34<Rubidium>NGC3982: no, astrology
15:34<NGC3982>Rubidium: not funny, thank you.
15:34<Rubidium>then you can just talk nonsense and it still makes sense ;)
15:35<NGC3982>ah
15:35<NGC3982>hehe
15:35<@planetmaker>haha :-)
15:35<@planetmaker>and make (much) more money with that
15:35<NGC3982>well, combining astronomy and astrology surely looks profitable
15:35<NGC3982>"trust me, im a scientist" (half-life).
15:36<__ln__>they were one science earlier
15:39<Rubidium>too bad I can't find a subtitled version of the "Gastro TV" sketch that was on television a while ago after all those "astro tv" things got cancelled/banned
15:40<Eddi|zuHause>they got banned?
15:40<NGC3982>planetmaker: only 15% of the stars have planets, by the way?
15:40<NGC3982>the last thing i heard about something similar was carl sagan in cosmos, hoping that 70 or 80% of the stars had at least one planet.
15:40<NGC3982>:)
15:41<Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: by most channels yes
15:42<Rubidium>and if I recall correctly they got totally banned including all of the other similar tv 'programs' in Flanders
15:43<Zuu>I can't recall that I've ever seen an astro program on TV.
15:43<Rubidium>Zuu: then you should by a TV ;)
15:44<Rubidium>and channel surf the crappy channels in the late morning or mid afternoon
15:44<Zuu>I got a TV
15:44<Rubidium>s/by/buy/
15:45<Eddi|zuHause>we've got a "full time" astro tv channel
15:45<Zuu>I tend to not watch the channels on it especially not the crappy ones.
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15:50<__ln__>next to Flanders is Simpson?
15:53<Eddi|zuHause>wrong country :)
15:55<Nat_aS>http://reticulatingsplines.ytmnd.com/ what does Reticlulating splines mean anyways? And could it be applied to making a better heightmap generator for OTTD?
15:56<Eddi|zuHause>Nat_aS: it's somewhat of a running gag throughout simcity versions
15:56<Nat_aS>yes but the gag must have started as a programer in joke
15:56<Nat_aS>I'm fairly sure it's something that Sim City 2000 actually does in map making.
15:56<Eddi|zuHause>splines are a mathematical interpolation method
15:58<Nat_aS>and what does that mean?
15:58<Eddi|zuHause>http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spline-Interpolation
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15:59<drac_boy>hi
15:59<Nat_aS>I don't speak german
15:59<Eddi|zuHause>Nat_aS: there's a big "english" link on the left.
15:59*Nat_aS searches the same thing on the EN wikipedia
16:00<drac_boy>what looking for btw Nat_aS?
16:00<Nat_aS>Reticulating splines, and how it applies to making random maps
16:00<drac_boy>oh
16:00<Nat_aS>because whatever algorithm SImCity 2000 uses, it's better than what we have
16:01<Nat_aS>and the only lead I have on that is there Reticluating splies joke
16:01<Nat_aS>splines
16:01<Eddi|zuHause>Nat_aS: there was a fairly comprehensive explanation on how simcity-style maps are generated
16:01<drac_boy>btw I got a small question...is it phpbb or the forum host (I think we know who heh) thats not listing Canada for the language menu on registeration page?
16:01<Nat_aS>oh?
16:01<Eddi|zuHause>Nat_aS: but it's not something that can usefully be done for a "whole world" map
16:02<Nat_aS>oh?
16:02<Nat_aS>why not?
16:02<Rubidium>drac_boy: I reckon it's due to there not being a Canadian English translation
16:02<Eddi|zuHause>Nat_aS: you only get "one costline" or "one river" style maps out of it
16:02<drac_boy>guess its phpbb then
16:03<Nat_aS>there's no way to specify other land formations?
16:03<Rubidium>drac_boy: but you can do something about it
16:03<drac_boy>hmm think I'll just register with british language soon then
16:03<Nat_aS>Even with one coastline and one river, I still like the arrangement of hills and flats better than OTTDs.
16:04<Nat_aS>i know SC3k allowed up two 4 coastlines (Peninsulas, isthmuses, and islands) as well as Mountians and lakes in the cente
16:04<Nat_aS>center
16:04<Eddi|zuHause>Nat_aS: yes. pure "noise" does not result in very favourable maps. that's why the landscape variation functions have been introduced
16:05<Nat_aS>then SC4 went all out with hyper realistic terrain, but at the same time construction was confined the a grid, meaning it was almost impossible to build cities that fit onto this realistic terrain
16:06<Nat_aS>SC4 is an example of how not to build a game.
16:06<Nat_aS>advancing the engine without advancing the gameplay is bad
16:06<Eddi|zuHause>yes, the grid is one of the biggest weakness of sc4
16:06<Nat_aS>same mistake that Chris Sawyer made with Locomotion
16:06<Eddi|zuHause>you can only build american-style grid cities
16:06<Eddi|zuHause>not european style "grown" cities
16:06<Nat_aS>it's funny, because the engine was PERFECT for RCT
16:08<@Alberth>nah, I had heaps of trouble understanding where the roller coaster tracks went to
16:08<Eddi|zuHause>i never played RCT or Locomotion
16:09<@Alberth>and problems while digging deep holes :)
16:14<Nat_aS>Because of the isometric depth perception problem?
16:15<Nat_aS>>Will Wright has stated in an interview that the game does not actually reticulate splines when generating terrain, darn
16:15<@Alberth>clicking tiles below the lower edge of the hole :)
16:15<Nat_aS>anyways, how does SC2K work then?
16:16<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r24111 /trunk/src/ (8 files in 3 dirs): -Codechange: use Colour more instead of manually bitstuffing
16:17<supermop>the holes were problematic in Locomotion
16:17<supermop>that game really need a way to 'shave' off layers
16:18<supermop>ie pin the view and/or cursor to a certain depth
16:18<supermop>mostly for subways
16:18<drac_boy>was locomotion really like rct as in you had to lay each rail piece individually btw?
16:18<Nat_aS>yes
16:18<drac_boy>oic, good thing I never ever thought about considering that game at all :-/
16:18<Nat_aS>click next click next, click turn, click straight, click next
16:19<Nat_aS>it works in RCT, and in fact is essential for it
16:19<Nat_aS>but here, it's just tedious
16:19<supermop>every so often i fire it up to play with modelling the subway junctions and interlockings near me, which are quite complex
16:20<Eddi|zuHause>people have actually been requesting that this method be implemented in openttd
16:20<drac_boy>Nat_aS yeah rct is about ever-twisting layout in a small space. thats in contrast to building a long straight railroad I imagine
16:20*Nat_aS makes a face
16:20<Nat_aS>: L
16:20<Nat_aS>(._.)/ h
16:20<drac_boy>Nat_aS heh was that to me or them? :)
16:20<Nat_aS>over them
16:21<drac_boy>ok :)
16:21<Nat_aS>yeah, RCT's engine was designed for a TTD sequel, BUT it evolved in a diffrent direction
16:22<Nat_aS>Locomotion was a halfassed attempt to bring it full circle.
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16:22<Nat_aS>which did not work
16:25<drac_boy>funny thing is I always build a miniature railroad circle every time my park started getting larger. usually either from the enterance to back of park but sometimes adding side located station
16:25<drac_boy>never did use the monorail too much
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16:28<Fori>I've actually bought locomotion ^^
16:28<Fori>Hi drac :)
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16:28<drac_boy>hi fori
16:28<drac_boy>weird thing is I had something I wanted to tell you but I can't remember what it was now heh :-/
16:29<Fori>Damn ^^
16:29<Fori>Maybe it'll come back.
16:29<Fori>Wanna check my server setup out?
16:29<drac_boy>I don't have 1.2.0 so I doubt it, thanks still
16:30<Fori>Ah, right.
16:30<Fori>We just launched a game in 1850 :D
16:30<Fori>With some expensive settings.
16:30*oskari89 thinks that power stations should have more functions in OpenTTD generally
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16:31<oskari89>And i think that power lines should be built to nearest towns.
16:32<oskari89>And there could be electrical substation.
16:32<oskari89>More delivery -> More power -> More town population boost :P
16:33<drac_boy>oskari89 well normally I would had questioned you but with NewObjects and the scenarioeditor-only flag its plausible to build the power lines as long as they are neutrally owned
16:33<oskari89>Hmm.
16:33<drac_boy>as for power...I think there used to be a server that required you to unload coal+food to grow the town then the game was over as soon as one player reached the population goal set for that server
16:34<oskari89>Did some grf had powerlines or pylons?
16:34<drac_boy>if its still running and you can find that game, you could check out how its done
16:34<oskari89>Do i recall right that it was something from SAC?
16:34<Nat_aS>the fact that the trains in RTC don't have junctions is half the reason Locomo sucks
16:34<Nat_aS>no pathfinding
16:36<drac_boy>hm well I got a wagon question as usual...
16:37<drac_boy>should transporter wagon (with a loaded standard gauge wagon atop) be same runcost as the normal narrow gauge version or perhaps a little higher?
16:38<Nat_aS>a littler higher
16:39<Nat_aS>conversions should always be less efficient than what they are emulating.
16:39<Nat_aS>If I understand what is being done.
16:39<Nat_aS>this is a train car that carries another car on top?
16:40<drac_boy>yes it is
16:41<drac_boy>and just in case you wanted to check here's an example:http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/36/Rollwagen_HSB.jpg
16:41<drac_boy>hm sorry, insert a space after the colon :)
16:42<Eddi|zuHause>works right here
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16:54<drac_boy>still want find more real metre wagons examples but think that part of the table is almost done aside to no prices
16:54<drac_boy>^_^
16:56*drac_boy tried to track down chile railroads but somehow never got far :|
17:02<drac_boy>if anyone wanted to know, you can actually fire a small firebox on hides ... just expect it to stink badly for a few days!
17:02*drac_boy finds some of these older stories a bit amusing
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17:26<Eddi|zuHause>narrow gauge freight wagons are either on lines that are dedicated to one cargo only, or they're standard gauge wagons on special carriage cars like in the picture
17:27<Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: I'm not so sure about that
17:29<drac_boy>actually sometimes it helps when its an industry that only has NG connection but otherwise could want to see one or few loads that are out of the NG network's reach. if clearance allows its cheaper to ship the SG wagon as-is over NG rather than finding the terminal space and labour to transload the cargo itself
17:29<Rubidium>mostly because I saw one on TV not long ago
17:29<drac_boy>I've noticed that switzerland does this a lot with log loads
17:32<drac_boy>actually...one thing I find quite interesting about RhB is that a lot of the times the schedule is for passengers but they'll often add a freight wagon or few to its tail
17:32<drac_boy>even that new Allegro emu set hauling a few extra coaches plus liquid or timber loads isn't too unusual occurance as well
17:35<Rubidium>hmm, is metre gauge considered narrow?
17:35<drac_boy>yeah
17:36<drac_boy>its hmm I think like close to 3ft 6inch or was it 3inch. either way its pretty much 1000m
17:36<Rubidium>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r6LkvwyM6q8 <- proves cargo is transported on narrow gauge where there are also passengers trains
17:36<Eddi|zuHause>was that ever doubted?
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17:37<Rubidium>23:26 < Eddi|zuHause> narrow gauge freight wagons are either on lines that are dedicated to one cargo only, or they're standard gauge wagons on special carriage cars like in the picture
17:37<Rubidium>that implies it
17:38<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: i meant that a line dedicated to one cargo, like a mine, will have special wagons for this cargo
17:38<Rubidium>as I'm showing narrow gauge wagons on a non-single cargo only line without the special carriage
17:39<Eddi|zuHause>my sentence is missing a "usually" inbetween
17:39<drac_boy>btw I can't remember where I saw it but theres something a bit different coming in a few years...
17:41-!-TGYoshi [~TGYoshi@86.81.146.146] has quit [Quit: Popidopidopido]
17:41<drac_boy>JR wants to create wagons (they look a bit like oversized single-deck car carrier wagons) to transport NG freight wagons over the shinkansen lines
17:42<drac_boy>would be interesting, the lines wouldn't be only purely for passengers alone anymore
17:42<Rubidium>then they would only be transporting the cargo at night
17:42<Rubidium>as it's not as if there's much capacity left on the line, especially for slow cargo trains
17:43<drac_boy>I don't think it would be slow, probably only a few wagons behind at least two or more powerful locomotives. but still yeah nights might be more likely
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17:44<drac_boy>I think the idea did have merits tho. the NG lines are like only up to 160 (or was it lower for freights than passengers?) while the shinkansen can go over 300. lot of time saving there
17:45<Rubidium>unless it's for the Hakodate - Aomori stretch
17:45<Rubidium>then it'd make some sense
17:45<NGC3982>kentucky is a state, kentucky is a state
17:46<drac_boy>anyway Rubidium I kind of need to go, need to pick up supper and a bit of tomorrow's food. I'll be back later tonight tho
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17:51<Wolf01>'night
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17:51<Rubidium>bah... typical Japanese website links. They're linking to (re)moved pages
17:55<NGC3982>surfing the japanese web is a bit odd.
17:55<NGC3982>lots of material is linked to non-existant media
17:55<NGC3982>..everywhere.
17:56<Rubidium>luckily http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K9ALaS8lHGM still works ;)
17:57<Sacro>I don't get glue records :(
18:03<NGC3982>Rubidium: sweet jesus.
18:03<Eddi|zuHause><NGC3982> kentucky is a state, kentucky is a state <- is that like "titanic is real"?
18:03<NGC3982>najt on faja.
18:03<NGC3982>Eddi|zuHause: sure is!
18:04<NGC3982>Eddi|zuHause: that titanic thingy is horrible though, and i have a more horrible note about it.
18:04<Eddi|zuHause>NGC3982: it's on the internet. it must be fake.
18:04<NGC3982>Eddi|zuHause: i work with telemarketing, and most of your employees are born in the middle of the 1990's. that is, most of them are barely 18.
18:04<NGC3982>since i saw that picture i pasted earlier today, i asked around on the office about this.
18:05<NGC3982>and a serious discussion started amongst the toddlers about the fact that "the movie might be based on a real event"
18:05<Eddi|zuHause>just wait a generation or so, they'll ask "hitler was real?"
18:05<NGC3982>almost no-one actually connected it to a real event.
18:06<NGC3982>i was about to jump the window.
18:06<Eddi|zuHause>and three or four generations it'll be "bin laten was real?"
18:06<NGC3982>Eddi|zuHause: true.
18:06<Eddi|zuHause>*laden
18:06<MNIM>eddi: there are people thinking that already now
18:06<Eddi|zuHause>MNIM: yes. but not in the sense of "i thought it was just a movie"
18:07<MNIM>well
18:07<MNIM>I wouldn't be too sure of that >.>
18:07<NGC3982>sure, some things are hard to keep track on. for instance, i dont feel that kinds should have the common knowledge on, well, let's say: sigmund freud
18:08<NGC3982>even though there is a new movie on the subject.
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18:16<Djohaal>not having common knowledge on sigmund freud makes you a ignorant person if you ask me
18:17<__ln__>http://www.raspberrypi.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/CE_marks.jpg
18:18<Djohaal>damn chinese
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18:21<bremerjoe>Good evening!
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18:22<Fori>See ya tomorrow!
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18:32<nicfer>how many sets have trains that support autorefit?
18:34<V453000>two?
18:34<V453000>ogfx+ and ukrs2? At least two
18:34<V453000>dont know if some other
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18:46<drac_boy>hi
18:48*drac_boy wonders if Rubidium want a bagel I had left over
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19:52<Rubidium>[4~
19:53<drac_boy>heh
19:55<Eddi|zuHause>it's either an escape code or a really malformed smilie :p
19:55<drac_boy>yeah I'm not sure which one it is :)
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---Logclosed Wed Apr 11 00:00:56 2012