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#openttd IRC Logs for 2012-04-11

---Logopened Wed Apr 11 00:00:56 2012
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02:42<xiong>Just to be combative... good evening.
02:45<NGC3982>it's a hall & oates wednesday.
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03:33<xiong>Okay. It was a Bessie Smith Monday.
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05:12<Eddi|zuHause><? if ('9223372036854775807' == '9223372036854775808') { echo "hurz!\n"; } ?>
05:13<@peter1138>php ftw
05:14<NGC3982>i was like "thats no excel formula"
05:17<CornishPasty>Stupid php :P
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05:19<Eddi|zuHause>that's because php is "intelligent"
05:19<Eddi|zuHause>if comparing strings, it first checks whether the strings look like numbers. and then converts them. and then compares them
05:21<CornishPasty>Although anyone using == is kinda silly
05:21<CornishPasty>It doesn't work if you use ===
05:22<Rhamphoryncus>== should be removed from the language
05:26<CornishPasty>== should replicate the functionality of ===
05:26<CornishPasty>have an ini setting for people who need it for old scripts, something like "stupid_equals_shit = On"
05:28<goodger>what's the difference?
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05:32*goodger headdesks
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05:37<goodger>makes me glad I never learned PHP
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05:43<goodger>also makes me glad that python is strongly typed
05:48<blathijs>Uh, what?
05:49<blathijs>Ah wait, dynamic/static typing != strong/weak typing, of course
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05:57<TinoDidriksen>Now if only Python had a strict mode where you had to declare variables...
06:01<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, i'm missing some syntactical sugar that computes to a "assert <some conformance condition"
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06:50<drac_boy>any of you think it might be plausible for the drive-thru station to determine whether its inside or outside the town?
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07:25<drac_boy>and I can't recall right now who mentioned the issue with LNER garrat but I found a unusual photo of it while looking for something else:
07:26<drac_boy>weird tank it got instead of the usual boxy fuel tender
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07:30<Eddi|zuHause>drac_boy: road stations cannot vary their graphics
07:32<drac_boy>think its too hard-coded or one day could be done?
07:33<drac_boy>which one? heh
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07:38<drac_boy>Eddi|zuHause don't know if you could help much but if you had tried a train grf that also included mine rails (2ft gauge and always electrified) which was very cheap to build a long route with and had little runcost. would you probably had tried it?
07:39<drac_boy>hm sorry...ignore the second sentence -_-
07:42<Eddi|zuHause>i had big interest in getting the industrial trams into HEQS :)
07:42<drac_boy>heh so it was really you? hm :)
07:44<goodger>TinoDidriksen: Cython does include that exact feature
07:44<goodger>but it's optional, and it's only to allow certain optimisations of the C it produces
07:45<Eddi|zuHause>goodger: we're talking about debugging features. not optimisation features. they're kinda demetrically opposite
07:46<Eddi|zuHause>not sure what i actually wrote there :p
07:47<goodger>if pushed to choose, I would go for "arising from, or concerning, measurements"
07:52<drac_boy>eddi the other thing I had been thinking about related to mine trains tho...
07:53<drac_boy>what do you think of having two coal mines (assuming industry slots had a free spot) and one is a normal underground mine but the other one can only be built on non-flat ground and contains a short section of animated mine train moving in and out with a string of single tippler cars?
07:54<drac_boy>I think one of the newgrf ore mine had something a little similar but it was a quarry so it was always visible tho
08:01<Rhamphoryncus>drac_boy: You might be able to do that as a single industry. I know I've seen some conditional stuff for snowy vs normal industry variants
08:02<drac_boy>Rhamphoryncus hmm I'll try check the newgrf wiki for that then
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08:24<drac_boy>silly question, is it only one smoke plume location per locomotive?
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08:32<Eddi|zuHause>yes. but articulated parts can steam as well
08:34<drac_boy>yeah I was just wondering about single locomotives
08:35<drac_boy>I guess that something like eg the Fairlie could always be coded as one locomotive with a single invisible pixel for the second part so it could still make double smokes. right?
08:36*drac_boy always thought these double-boiler locomotives were a crazy idea tbh
08:36<Eddi|zuHause>yes, that's possible
08:36<Eddi|zuHause>although you may get some glitches if done improperly
08:37<Rhamphoryncus>Wouldn't that mean when going around corners the smoke would project past the edge of the track?
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08:58<FLHerne>drac_boy: I know it's an hour ago, but... "LNER garrat but I found a unusual photo" - That's an LMS version :P
08:58<FLHerne>The rotating coal bunkers were a bit odd
08:59*FLHerne stops being pedantic
09:00<drac_boy>oh..sorry...lms..lner... both are L to me :p
09:01<drac_boy>and btw hi there + see you later maybe ok? I'm going off for a while now. too many other things to do now :-s
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10:42<NGC3982>guys, something bizarre just happend
10:43<NGC3982>im using multiple grfs (just added all the "vehicle" content i found). i bought myself a Hereford Leopard Bus and added a driving location. this is what the busses look like:
10:44<NGC3982>looks at the two vehicles in the middle
10:44<NGC3982>that traktor-green-white-bus-truck is a hereford leopard.
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10:48<NGC3982>it seems to reappear when the busses get to the station for loading and unloading.
10:49<@planetmaker>NGC3982: enjoy the ingame screenshot function available via ctrl+S
10:52<NGC3982>well yes, that leaves me with a png file. the imgur "app" hyperdesktop lets me click and upload in one go.
10:54<Rhamphoryncus>NGC3982: sounds like something is broken or conflicting
10:57<NGC3982>i realized that they show the wrong sprite (right?) when they are facing 45 degrees down-left.
10:58<andythenorth>can ottd have a new compile target?
10:58<andythenorth>'make choo choo'
10:58<andythenorth>I guess I could just alias it :P
10:59<andythenorth>'make run -j13'
10:59<Eddi|zuHause>NGC3982: but we'd see your used NewGRFs in the openttd screenshot
10:59<Eddi|zuHause>NGC3982: so which do you think is more precious: your time or ours?
11:04<NGC3982>excuse me?
11:05<NGC3982>im simply showing what's happening in my game. what of this talk about precious time?
11:09<NGC3982>and yes, i ..guess the bus is a newgrf. i dont actually know.
11:10<NGC3982>Rhamphoryncus: i guess i have been using one or two many grfs together..
11:10<Rhamphoryncus>andythenorth: hey, guess what I'm doing
11:10<andythenorth>micro-managing supplies?
11:11<Rhamphoryncus>Nope. I'm enjoying them.
11:12<Rhamphoryncus>I realized from my last game that if you take an autorefit approach then they're free. You naturally bring them back to the source
11:14<andythenorth>and you worry about micro-managing quantities...or not?
11:14<supermop>not his problem that the coal mine bought 100 huge dump trucks in one month
11:15<andythenorth>one of the reasons I get irritated by supplies....
11:15<andythenorth>....there's a lot of whining about 'omfg, I have to timetable to deliver precisely 1t per month'
11:15<andythenorth>which is insanely unimaginative
11:15<Rhamphoryncus>Nope. Don't care. A single train does iron ore mine -> steel mill -> machine shop -> iron ore mine
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11:16<Rhamphoryncus>I just make sure it has the right wagon selection and I'm done
11:16*andythenorth had probably better stop discussing supplies :P
11:16<andythenorth>it always ends badly for me
11:17<Rhamphoryncus>Technically it's wasteful because it has 10 wagons for iron ore and 3 for metal/engsup, but that bothers me very little in comparison
11:17<Rhamphoryncus>Hey, I only brought it up this time because I'm *enjoying* it :)
11:19<Rhamphoryncus>I plan to add a coal mine loop that shares the steel mill/machine shop portion, so I'll have to change the wagon numbers due to the production synergy. Doesn't bother me either :)
11:19<andythenorth>Rhamphoryncus: so you're not going to submit a patch removing them? And all associated industries?
11:19<Rhamphoryncus>I do have some ideas on how to redesign farmsup/engsup around this, but that can wait until later
11:19<Rhamphoryncus>Not at the moment ;)
11:20<andythenorth>nice that you're enjoying it
11:20<Rhamphoryncus>Nice to not be bitching
11:20*andythenorth feels only bitterness :)
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11:22<NGC3982>ah, saving and restarting the game worked nicely.
11:25<supermop>i want turret trucks to deliver .25t of supplies
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11:33<Eddi|zuHause>sounds like the typical weight a rollator would carry :)
11:40<@peter1138>a what?
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11:50<Rhamphoryncus>Is it still cheesy to build a road route with only a single road tile (meaning it's tiny) when there's only a 3-tile gap between the steel mill and the metal fabrication shop? :)
11:50<Rhamphoryncus>err metal workshop
11:51<goodger>somewhat yes
11:53<goodger>but since you can build stations that magically teleport cargo further than that, it's no great realism issue at least
11:54<FLHerne>It's a good use for those very slow foundry transporters...
11:54<Rhamphoryncus>Oh! Clearly I should use a forklift :D
11:57<Rhamphoryncus>hrm too little volume heh
12:02<FLHerne>I've got 672 of those forklifts now :P
12:03<FLHerne>They cause quite a bit of congestion
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12:07<Rhamphoryncus>It was cute when I replaced one truck with one forklift. Not so much at 10 forklifts
12:07<FLHerne>Has anyone found a use for the rail Gmund-Mogs>
12:08<FLHerne>Road ones have a purpose, rail ones seem pointless without shunting/consist modification
12:08<Eddi|zuHause>i used it once
12:09<FLHerne>What for?
12:09<Eddi|zuHause>hauling FMSP
12:09<Eddi|zuHause>in a single-wagon train
12:11<FLHerne>Ah. I always ship those to the railhead in bulk and then use forklifts, hence all the forklifts :P
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12:21<Eddi|zuHause>it was a route nearly orthogonal to any of my other routes
12:21<Eddi|zuHause>so i chose this method
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12:40<frosch123>everyday i do not get spam in my mail box, i think something is broken :p
12:42<Eddi|zuHause>i never get spam :(
12:43*Rubidium got a spamburger once ;)
12:45<frosch123>hmm, for what screen resolution are 1024x1024 icons?
12:46<Rubidium>looking at OSX icons?
12:46<Rubidium>probably for the the new new ipad
12:46<frosch123>fullscreen icons?
12:46<Rubidium>so 3kx4k, then it's a lovely 3 by 4 icons
12:47<Rubidium>which is even more icons than my phone's screen can handle at a time
12:47<frosch123>ok :)
12:48<Rubidium>but it's really a stupidly large icon
12:48<Rubidium>even 256x256 is honestly pushing it already
12:49<frosch123>yeah, but if you want to use it as heightmap you really need at least 256x256
12:49<Eddi|zuHause>shouldn't you be thinking about vectorizing the icons at that point?
12:49<Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: why should we?
12:49<Rubidium>these huge icons are, after all, generated from a vector image
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12:52<Eddi|zuHause>yes, but it gets more and more silly to generate "icons" in larger and larger sizes. so the OS should just be rendering the vector image in the first place
12:53<Rhamphoryncus>Pretty sure gnome can do that, but if osx can't then generate whatever it wants
12:54<Eddi|zuHause>oh, and convert openttd to do vector-rendering while at it :)
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12:56<goodger>the OS can't reliably produce small versions of a vector image
12:57<goodger>not at current display resolutions, at least
12:58<goodger>compare to and
13:01<goodger>even if the display resolution were much higher, the icons would still have to be simplified at smaller sizes because the human eye couldn't distinguish all the detail
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13:40*andythenorth might have to stay out forums
13:40<andythenorth>causes rageness
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13:40<andythenorth>maybe andythenorth should take a chill pill
13:41<andythenorth>and relax
13:41<andythenorth>it's only a game :P
13:41<@planetmaker>what causes you to rage, andythenorth?
13:41*planetmaker thought it's a calm day
13:41<andythenorth>'what is the release date?'
13:41<andythenorth>fricking idiots
13:41<@planetmaker>ach. Does that bother you?
13:41<@planetmaker>I had fun :-)
13:43<@planetmaker>it's a new guy. They have one such question for free ;-)
13:44<@planetmaker>hi Wolf01
13:44<andythenorth>some days my reason deserts me :P
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: translators * r24112 /trunk/src/lang/spanish.txt:
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: spanish - 1 changes by Terkhen
13:45<andythenorth>since having children, I've learnt how a quite small amount of sleep deprivation can change your personality quite a lot
13:45<andythenorth>and a lot of sleep deprivation is really quite strange and mad
13:47<Rhamphoryncus>IMO it's a good question. Enough that it wouldn't hurt to post it on the main page (particularly since all the news there relates to it.)
13:49<andythenorth>sometimes I think the traditional PHPBB forum format has some limitations wrt communities :P
13:49<andythenorth>well obviously it has limitations, all software does :P
13:50<Rhamphoryncus>That format hasn't evolved much in.. 5? 10 years?
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13:59<NGC3982>andythenorth: having trouble snoozing the old buzzer?
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14:12<Sarah>please someone can help me?
14:12<Vaulter>someone surely can
14:12<Vaulter>Hi there
14:12<Sarah>i dont know how to take screenshots from openTTD
14:13<V453000>ctrl s
14:13<Sarah>nothing happens
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14:15<Vaulter>Look at (?) toolbar button
14:15<Vaulter>Press it!
14:16<@planetmaker>press and hold control, then s
14:16<Vaulter>and hold
14:16<Fori>I have observed a strange behaviour concerning the distribution of food.
14:16<@planetmaker>if you are on OSX, then press cmd+s
14:16<@planetmaker>hm... I wonder. I need to check :-D
14:17<Fori>A town which isn't even in the reach of my station gets it's food and the one next to it, which is in reach, doesnt get it?
14:17<Fori>How can that be?
14:17<Vaulter>some houses are too far from their hometown ?
14:18<Vaulter>check houses by inspect tool
14:18<@planetmaker>the station is in / on tiles which belong to the other town
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14:20<Fori>Thanks planet!
14:20<Fori>That's the point!
14:20<Fori>But the main, named tile, is in the town to be supplied?
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14:24<Fori>I adjusted it so that it's now only on tiles belonging to the town I want to be supplied.
14:24<Fori>Let's see what the month brings-
14:26<Eddi|zuHause>one more reason to automatically split (evenly) between all suitible targets near the station
14:26<Fori>Well Eddie. Do towns work like industries in that case?
14:27<Fori>Since the other town isn't in reach of the station?
14:27<Fori>And still gets the food.
14:27<Eddi|zuHause>Fori: if the houses would get the food directly, then they'd know which town to add the food to
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14:29<Fori>Planet's suggestions didnt fix it :(
14:29<Fori>I'll make a screenshot.
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14:32<Fori>Planetmaker? Got another idea maybe?
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14:34<Eddi|zuHause>Fori: relevant should be the original name of the station
14:36*Alberth read 'waxed' for the city :)
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14:37<Fori>Eddie? So only replacing the station completely will help ?
14:39<Eddi|zuHause>yes. only removing the station and building a new one (with Ctrl)
14:39<Eddi|zuHause>Fori: nobody will read your replies if you don't spell out the full nickname
14:41<Fori>Is there a short way to do that?
14:42<Fori>Eddi|zuHause: works now, thanks!
14:42<Fori>Ah, that's how you guys do it with that ":" everytime :)
14:42<Fori>Thanks a lot, Eddi|zuHause
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14:54<Bad_Brett>Hello everyone! This is my first time on the OpenTTD IRC channel. :)
14:55<Rhamphoryncus>Hello! It is not mine.
14:56<Bad_Brett>Eddi: I was wondering about the screenshot you posted with the extra vehicle angles... Is there any chance that it will be included in the trunk?
15:02<Eddi|zuHause>Bad_Brett: the relevant core parts are already in trunk, the rest are newgrf features
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15:05<Fori>Hi Bad_Brett .
15:06<supermop>hmm when real work interrupts writing a post several times i tend not to make any cohesive argument
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15:08<Eddi|zuHause>Bad_Brett: check out (most vehicles have no proper graphics yet, though)
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15:16<Bad_Brett>Cool! So I can use that build to try extra angles for my vehicles?
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15:17<Bad_Brett>...I guess nml only supports 8 angles though
15:20<Rhamphoryncus>Are you using the latest version of nmlc? (Just guessing, dunno if it has support or not)
15:21<Rubidium>OpenTTD only supports 8 angles. The rest is just a massive amount of trickery
15:23<Bad_Brett>I guess it can be solved by switching between different spritesets when a vehicle enters a curve
15:23<Eddi|zuHause>yes, that's how it is done
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15:24<Bad_Brett>Alright. In that case it's compatible without any patches, which is a good thing
15:25<Zuu>Bad_Brett: That cargo generator, is it made in Matlab?
15:26<Bad_Brett>Though it generates industries now as well
15:26<Zuu>It requires a matlab license to use it right?
15:27<Bad_Brett>Nope, only the MCRCompiler which should be free to download
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15:27<Zuu>Oh, though you would need a 10 000 Euro license to use it (unless you are a student) :-)
15:28<Bad_Brett>I'm a civil engineer :)
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15:28<Zuu>Oh, actually it's only about 2000 Euro for the base version.
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15:30<Zuu>Though, if you pick everything on their modules list you'll easily go over 10 000 euro. :-)
15:30<Bad_Brett>Now that you mention it... I'll lose my license in a few months... better hurry... or switch to C# :)
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15:32<Zuu>hehe, to migrate my OTTDAU development to a new computer I need to buy a license for 1000 euro to get hold of a compiler that is somewhat compatible to the compiler I use today that once used to be a free of charge download.
15:34<Rhamphoryncus>Oh, cute. Changing your autorefit orders switches full load any to full load all
15:34<Zuu>They do have a "starter edition" for just 100 euro, but it only contains the latest version of the compiler that is quite lacking on backward compatibility.
15:34<Eddi|zuHause>you don't need backwards compatibility for starters :)
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15:37<Bad_Brett>1000 euros sound insane
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15:42<Bad_Brett>The Matlab compiler runtime is free:
15:42<Bad_Brett>Though that file is INSANELY big
15:42<Eddi|zuHause>1000 euro is nothing in industrial scale software
15:43<Bad_Brett>no of course no... but it's not something that you buy just for fun
15:44<Bad_Brett>But if I remember correctly I have the right to attach the old compiler my projects
15:47<Bad_Brett>Anyway, is it possible to edit the groundsprites with NML (Such as adding more animation frames to the water tiles) or can I only replace the standard tiles?
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15:50<Eddi|zuHause>no, you can only add animation to objects, not to plain ground tiles
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15:50<Eddi|zuHause>there is only one water sprite, the rest is done by palette tricks
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15:56<Bad_Brett>Really? How on earth can a gain control over that?
15:56<Eddi|zuHause>not at all
15:57<Eddi|zuHause>Bad_Brett: there are so many water tiles on an average map, "real" animation would probably grind the game to a halt...
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16:00<Bad_Brett>Yep, I realise that
16:00<Bad_Brett>But when I add 32bpp water tiles, can I somehow make use of this "palette trick"?
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16:08<Eddi|zuHause>there is recolouring for 32bpp sprites, but i don't know how to use it
16:12<michi_cc>Eddi|zuHause: Care to post to Flyspray for better reference? *hint hint*
16:13<Eddi|zuHause>hehe :)
16:13<frosch123>how many seconds can you make it?
16:14<Eddi|zuHause>i'll check if that is really the latest version that i have first
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16:16<Eddi|zuHause>i also have some "fix fence drawing" from that timeframe, which afair fixes some corner cases with certain slopes
16:17<Eddi|zuHause>i'll add it to the report
16:20<Eddi|zuHause>attaching files seems to be broken without javascript...
16:23<Eddi|zuHause>wah, forget to change to "patch"
16:24<Eddi|zuHause>michi_cc: yes, that is only the "first half"
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16:33<Eddi|zuHause>michi_cc: why the second patch is needed:,%206.%20Jul%201988.png
16:34<Eddi|zuHause>or it was, back then
16:34<Eddi|zuHause>haven't checked in a while
16:35<michi_cc>Okay, I'll check.
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16:37<Eddi|zuHause>it's also possible i missed some cases
16:38<Eddi|zuHause>while reading the patch, i think i didn't check steep slopes with halftile foundations
16:40<supermop>ah your fences
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16:45<Wolf01>'night all
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16:46<Eddi|zuHause>@calc (15*15*100)/(13*13*342)
16:46<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: 0.389286826534
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16:56<drac_boy>hm curse it, which australia locomotives were for cape gauge -_-
16:58<Eddi|zuHause>wikipedia might know that
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17:07<drac_boy>eddi mm problem is so much of these list seem to be standard/broad gauge but nevermind..I found an old site that had the cape gauge seperated out
17:07<drac_boy>thanks still
17:11<@Terkhen>good night
17:11<drac_boy>bye Terkhen
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17:16<drac_boy>heh think I found a nice little diesel locomotive
17:17<drac_boy>3-axle 250hp light shunt
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18:58<drac_boy>how many countries more or less did run cabless locomotive units? (you with EMD FB7 or GE U30B in north america)
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---Logclosed Thu Apr 12 00:00:58 2012