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#openttd IRC Logs for 2012-04-12

---Logopened Thu Apr 12 00:00:58 2012
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03:07<Rhamphoryncus>Huh, didn't expect that to work
03:07<NGC3982>morning :)
03:08<Rhamphoryncus>Added a per-platform waiting bay to my congested station, as well as switching to presignals, and it now handles the traffic
03:08<Rhamphoryncus>ahoy :)
03:09<Rhamphoryncus>My guess is that the pathfinder has one weight for "train in the way", another for "platform in use", so in a full station as soon as one train finishes loading and starts moving it immediately becomes more desirable than the other still-in-use platforms
03:09<Nat_aS>also path signals are the best
03:09<Nat_aS>for everything.
03:10<Rhamphoryncus>I don't believe path vs block matters here
03:12<Nat_aS>FIRS works in tropical?
03:13<Rhamphoryncus>Without the waiting bays that entering train would still be waiting, as none of the platforms are actually free yet
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03:32<dihedral>good morning
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06:04<drac_boy>hi FLHerne :-)
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06:15<FLHerne>drac_boy: Hi :P
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06:20<drac_boy>how're you?
06:31<drac_boy>ok for now heh
06:33<drac_boy>what you doing?
06:34<FLHerne>Typing on an IRC channel :P
06:35<drac_boy>heh so not busy with anything else atm?
06:36<FLHerne>Not very...I rewrote the last post of my screenshot thread, and now I'm waiting for OTTD to compile (again)
06:36<FLHerne>Then I can find all the bugs and break it differently :P
06:38<drac_boy>which screenshot btw?
06:38*Rhamphoryncus knows a few bugs that need reporting
06:39<FLHerne>drac_boy: this one:
06:39<FLHerne>Rhamphoryncus: I think most of my bugs are self-induced :|
06:40<@planetmaker>as long as it doesn't bug you too much ;-)
06:40<@planetmaker></random comment from voice from off>
06:42<drac_boy>btw FLHerne just wondering about it...would you like to play a chrillpatch game together? I didn't know you had it too
06:44<FLHerne>I'd like to...I'm afraid I can't host though, my ISP doesn't deal well with forwarding of unusual ports
06:44<drac_boy>actually..I was thinking of me :)
06:45<FLHerne>If you hosted, I'd join :P
06:47<drac_boy>heh ok
06:47<Rhamphoryncus>Bizarre looking station, 3rd screenshot here:
06:47<drac_boy>FLHerne you partial about any grfs in particular or wouldn't care for whatever I've picked?
06:47<Rhamphoryncus>Bizarre by ottd standards I mean :)
06:48<FLHerne>drac_boy: UKRS2(+) is nice, I assume you have NARS or similar
06:48<FLHerne>No particular must-haves, except FISH possibly
06:48<FLHerne>Rhamphoryncus: What's so bizzarre about it?
06:49<Rhamphoryncus>It's not a high-volume roro
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06:50<FLHerne>I never use high-volume efficient things...did you see ?
06:51<FLHerne>Probably the least efficient station cluster ever :P
06:52<Rhamphoryncus>err.. yeah, I'd say so :)
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07:45<FLHerne>xiong: That's less ugly than normal for a loop station - I'll stick to my convoluted tangles though :P
07:46<xiong>I'm refining a few station designs, both terminal and through. I consider space efficiency critical, since I play with long trains and small spread.
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08:34<Rhamphoryncus>Woo, gmund mogs upgraded to 100 km/h
08:35<Rhamphoryncus>I'm picturing a bunch of teenagers driving pickups with lift kits and oversized tires
08:40<drac_boy>actually I don't know why they bothered.. the unimog should stay where it is as a slow go-about-anywhere-with-anything vehicle which was its good merit years ago
08:40<drac_boy>especially with the PTO options given
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08:45<drac_boy>I know of an article re someone with a Boss Unimog .. it had a pushbutton transmission instead of normal stick .. but either way it could happily chug up a 50 degree slope in either forward or reverse with a large pile of stones in rear
08:45<drac_boy>factory pickups would never ever be able to do that
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08:51<xiong>Dune Buggy?
08:51<xiong>Ah, I have it... Skateboard, capacity 1 passenger, refittable to 6 cans of beer.
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09:07<Eddi|zuHause>something really weird happened to my kwin :/
09:08<Eddi|zuHause>it somewhat crashed, but i can't get it to restart
09:08<FLHerne>Eddi|zuHause: Oh? Mine is stupidly unstable, but normally starts did you crash it?
09:09<Eddi|zuHause>happened when browsing in dolphin
09:10<Eddi|zuHause>i guess i should try to restart kde...
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09:10<FLHerne>Try restarting kwin fron the Dolphin console
09:10<FLHerne>It has a terminal emulator, running kwin from there might work
09:11<dihedral>how often do i need to post my internal password ? :-D
09:12<Rhamphoryncus>Only once :)
09:13<dihedral>it's not like you could access the systems anyway :-D
09:13<@peter1138>yeah but
09:14<@peter1138>why are pringles so bloody expensive these days?
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09:17<DanMacK>because they're so bloody good?
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09:21<dihedral>either you sell in huge quantity or you sell expensive :-P
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09:23<@peter1138>oztrans' been busy
09:24<Eddi|zuHause>< FLHerne> Try restarting kwin fron the Dolphin console <-- i did try that
09:24<Eddi|zuHause>or... any console...
09:25<FLHerne>Oh, ok
09:25<FLHerne>Presumably didn't work, then?
09:26<FLHerne>Did it say why it didn't work?
09:27<Eddi|zuHause>no... nothing... didn't even react on ^C
09:27<Eddi|zuHause>neither on kill -15
09:27<Eddi|zuHause>only kill -9
09:30<FLHerne>What distro are you using?
09:33<FLHerne>Kubuntu here seems stupidly unstable sometimes
09:35<Eddi|zuHause>i use opensuse
09:35<Eddi|zuHause>and i did not have this kind of problem before...
09:36<Eddi|zuHause>i mean kwin did crash before, but it usually came back, either immediately, or after manually starting it from a console
09:36<FLHerne>My kwin crashes every time I log in, and every time I log out, and occasionally in between... :P
09:36<FLHerne>But it always comes back, so far
09:37<Eddi|zuHause>no... it's really not that bad :p
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09:38<FLHerne>Good. I'm slowly moving to Gentoo, but all the compiling takes ages
09:39<FLHerne>10.10 was Ok, 11.10 is the least stable distro I've ever used
09:40<FLHerne>...and that's including Debian Etch on a nubus-pmac kernel
09:40<Eddi|zuHause>i'm really not desperate enough to revert to self-compiling...
09:41<Eddi|zuHause>and that doesn't increase the quality of KDE anyway...
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09:42<FLHerne>Yes, but if I'm going to switch distro, I may as well try something different :D
09:43<FLHerne>I finally have enough computing power to compile stuff in less than 10 years...
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10:34<heffer>FLHerne: go for Fedora :D
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10:49<andythenorth>@seen pikka
10:49<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: pikka was last seen in #openttd 2 days, 18 hours, 19 minutes, and 55 seconds ago: <Pikka> because you can't get the wood you know
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10:55<andythenorth>It's interesting that Simuscape is being referred to as 'a development community like Simuscape'
10:55<andythenorth>maybe a schism just happened :)
10:57*andythenorth wonders if tt-forums is no longer the default all-encompassing community
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11:00<__ln__>drac_boy: the canadian is causing trouble over here, can we send him back?
11:01<drac_boy>which one?
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11:01<__ln__>Stephen Elop
11:01<drac_boy>no idea who that is sorry
11:01<drac_boy>hi rubidium
11:01<__ln__>drac_boy: CEO of some insignificant cell phone manufacturer.
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11:33*drac_boy gives andythenorth some parts for the Detriot Diesel engine block
11:33<drac_boy>heh heh
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12:13<XxXDukeXxX>I want to know is there something i can do (while afk) so that my Company doesn`t go bankruptcy?
12:14<DanMacK>Pause the game?
12:14<Rhamphoryncus>Singleplayer you can just pause it
12:15<Rhamphoryncus>But once established a company doesn't typically ever lose money
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12:49<+michi_cc>Eddi|zuHause: Any other useful patches you can recall that are not in ?
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13:09<andythenorth>michi_cc: Eddi|zuHause made me a really nice game-speed patch
13:09<andythenorth>at the end of each year, it reset the date back a year (once only per year)
13:10<Nat_aS>yeah, OTTD is one of the safest games to leave running
13:10<Nat_aS>assuming your network is stable
13:10<andythenorth>I maintain that approach is the most robust solution to game progression, way better than arsing about with daylength :D
13:11<andythenorth>it does mean that vehicle availability flaps around a bit :P
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13:11<FLHerne>I do that already, the cheat menu works fine :D
13:11<Nat_aS>or just set all vehicles to never expire and live in anachronism land
13:12<Nat_aS>get trains, fuck dates
13:12<Nat_aS>i mean Fuck dates get trains
13:17<FLHerne>Does anyone here use KATE for editing source files?
13:19<frosch123>FLHerne: i used it in kde3
13:19<oskari89>I would like patch which could draw rivers with a special color used on heightmaps :P
13:20<oskari89>Since Finnish scenarios have 10^5 lakes....
13:20<oskari89>Pain in arse when placing them all manually in scenery editor :P
13:22<@planetmaker>oskari89: that sounds like a subset of a new scenario format ;-)
13:23<@Terkhen>yeah... something like that was planned for the new format
13:23<@Terkhen>it would be great :)
13:23<oskari89>Could someone take that feature to work?
13:23<oskari89>I can't do C++, unfortunately :P
13:23<@Terkhen>not me, it seems :)
13:24<@Terkhen>I have been too uninspired with OpenTTD for a while
13:24<@Terkhen>and the new scenario format is not precisely a small feature
13:24<andythenorth>Terkhen: have you heard of a new game?
13:24<andythenorth>it's called minecraft :P
13:25<@Terkhen>I know about it, but it never caught my attention
13:25<oskari89>OpenTTD ("under the hood") developing needs a kick from something, it's slowly declining... Like TTDPatch :P
13:25*andythenorth has been avoiding minecraft
13:26<andythenorth>oskari89: ottd is dying
13:26<andythenorth>many reasons
13:26<oskari89>Too mature form?
13:26<andythenorth>it's done
13:26<andythenorth>for one
13:26<oskari89>No, it's not :P
13:26<andythenorth>entropy is another
13:27<andythenorth>all things are dying
13:27<@Terkhen>adding new features becomes increasingly complicated with time
13:27<andythenorth>it has very no problems left which attract developers
13:27<andythenorth>very no?
13:27<andythenorth>very few
13:28<andythenorth>there are very few people who can review patches
13:28<andythenorth>the community is increasingly retarded and fractious
13:28<andythenorth>but most of all it's kind of done
13:28<andythenorth>we won
13:29<andythenorth>we beat ttdpatch
13:29<andythenorth>the losers have gone off in a huff
13:29<andythenorth>there's no meta-game left to play
13:29<FLHerne>Is a meta-game necessary
13:29<oskari89>There needs to be more!
13:30<andythenorth>collaborative open source is a social meta-game
13:30<FLHerne>I'm repetitively breaking my local copy because I want shiny features, not because of a meta-game :P
13:30<@Terkhen>it never has been about beating anyone
13:30<andythenorth>and for ottd, it's (1) hard to start playing (2) there's no easy early win conditions
13:30<@planetmaker>oskari89: it's not trivial to make good patches and write them well
13:31<oskari89>Yes :P
13:31<@planetmaker>maybe the standards also got higher over the years. Most probable actually
13:31<oskari89>But the list of requested features is long, there's much left to do :P
13:31<andythenorth>nobody can get to level 1 any more
13:32<andythenorth>the meta-game is too hard
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13:32<oskari89>Developement shouldn't stop, chillcore's patchpack shows it :P
13:32<andythenorth>good game design (usually) requires making it easy for players to achieve early and keep playing
13:32<andythenorth>shouldn't? maybe? will? probably
13:32<oskari89>More integrated help?
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13:32<oskari89>And tutorials maybe?
13:33<@planetmaker>the game script interface is meant to work as tutorial, too
13:33<@planetmaker>there exists a project start for that
13:33<@Terkhen>already possible, NoGo can be used to add a lot of things to the game
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13:33<werson2>alguien abale spañol
13:33<@Terkhen>I hope to get interested again once that we start seeing interesting NoGo scripts
13:34<@planetmaker>this is an English only channel...
13:34<andythenorth>there was a spree of awesome commits earlier this year
13:34<andythenorth>lot of awesome new stuff got added
13:34<@Terkhen>werson2: check your private messages, I'm talking to you
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13:35<@Terkhen>andythenorth: OpenTTD development goes in waves, "near release" is the minimum
13:35<@Terkhen>oh well, he couldn't answer my private message
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13:36<@Terkhen>and I wasn't going to explain him how to open private messages in IRC in the public channel using spanish :)
13:36*andythenorth remains a NoGo doubter. Or fence sitter
13:36<andythenorth>'doubter' is unfair
13:36<@Terkhen>NoGo can and will be awesome, we just need someone to start making crazy scripts :P
13:37<andythenorth>I should play the game and see what NoGo does
13:37<andythenorth>is it still server only?
13:37*andythenorth is out of touch :P
13:37*andythenorth hasn't played the game for months and months
13:38<@Terkhen>to my knowledge it can be loaded for single player games too
13:38<FLHerne> removing assertions because they fail annoyingly a good idea?
13:39<andythenorth>not usually
13:39<@planetmaker>FLHerne: they're there to fail. And stop worse things happening
13:39<andythenorth>replacing them with new, correct assertions might be a good idea
13:39<@planetmaker>If they fail, something went wrong. E.g. a function is called under wrong circumstances or with invalid parameters
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13:40<andythenorth>assertions here are ~= unit tests?
13:40*andythenorth assumes
13:40<@planetmaker>like assert(company_id < max_companies)
13:40<@planetmaker>calling it with 17 would certainly cause an invalid read. somewhen and somewhere. or even write
13:40<FLHerne>Well, it doesn't seem to crash when I remove the assertion, so possibly I got the assertion wrong :P
13:40<@Terkhen>asserts are used to check things that NEVER should be true
13:41<@Terkhen>if you patched OpenTTD, that particular assertion might not be needed anymore
13:41<@planetmaker>FLHerne: removing them might not have any immediate effect. But side-effects not immediately or apparently visible
13:41<@Terkhen>or maybe the patch creator introduced an error and the assert is doing its work
13:41<@planetmaker>what Terkhen says. Depends on what you do
13:41<@Terkhen>who knows? :)
13:41<@planetmaker>the patch creator *should* know :-)
13:42<FLHerne>planetmaker/Terkhen: True, I will keep testing it :P
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13:42<@Terkhen>with a stable (or trunk) OpenTTD, assertions should never be triggered, they are there to prevent developers from destroying something without noticing
13:42<@Terkhen>since development is frozen for stables, they are deemed "safe" in this regard and assertions are disabled for them
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: translators * r24113 /trunk/src/lang/ (french.txt traditional_chinese.txt):
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: traditional_chinese - 3 changes by chaut0
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: french - 6 changes by OliTTD
13:45*andythenorth is way more motivated when pikka is here
13:45<andythenorth>he makes it fun :P
13:45<FLHerne>Ok..I probably did need it. Pesky segmentation faults :-(
13:45<@Terkhen>coop trolling?
13:45*andythenorth is not chief fun spreader
13:46*andythenorth has become spreader of grumpiness and doom :P
13:46<andythenorth>Terkhen: how is your job? :)
13:46<andythenorth>do you write code?
13:47<@Terkhen>not as much as I would like, most of the time I'm doing test protocols
13:47<@Terkhen>boring and tedious :P
13:47<andythenorth>documenting? or writing automated tests?
13:47<andythenorth>or running tests?
13:47<@Terkhen>automated test? I would like that
13:48<@Terkhen>no, they are documents that I have to follow
13:48<andythenorth>what kind of software is it? embedded? shrinkwrap? client-server? web?
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13:49<andythenorth>it's manually tested simply because there's no automation? or for other reasons?
13:50<@planetmaker>in one of andy's recommended web pages it is then suggested to spend 10% of the working time on getting it automated (assuming andy's assumption above is true)
13:50<@Terkhen>there is some automated testing for the server side, the test protocols are mostly for GUI stuff and checking some key functionalities
13:51<@Terkhen>GUI tests can't be automated very easily
13:51<andythenorth>is it a client for a windowing system?
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13:51<@Terkhen>I had to write some JUnit tests, it was fun
13:52<@Terkhen>specially when I discovered mock classes
13:53<andythenorth>Terkhen: you need a chaos monkey
13:53<andythenorth>most OSes have some form of GUI scripting
13:53-!-namad7 [] has quit []
13:53<andythenorth>if it's browser based, Selenium is your friend
13:54*andythenorth was also reading this today about continuous integration, nothing new, but interesting anyway
13:55<@Terkhen>many people are mostly following test protocols... if they were automated they would less people :P
13:55<@Terkhen>would need*
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13:55<andythenorth>that's a common fallacy :P
13:55<andythenorth>they could use the same people to write valuable code
13:56<andythenorth>thereby shipping faster, or better
13:56<@Terkhen>that would be nice, yup
13:58<andythenorth>or you could spend the saved time in meetings :P
13:58<andythenorth>reality is the time will be spent maintaining automated tests :P
13:58<andythenorth>but you can run more of them faster, and with fewer mistakes and defects
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14:05<@Terkhen>talking about automation... we use CVS
14:05<andythenorth>you can't move to svn for legacy reasons?
14:05<andythenorth>or cultural?
14:05<@Terkhen>no idea
14:06<@Terkhen>they just use CVS :P
14:06<@planetmaker>CVS? :-(
14:06<andythenorth>we tried CVS
14:06<andythenorth>"it's just not SVN"
14:06<@Terkhen>for someone accustomed to mercurial, it is quite a shock
14:06<andythenorth>"SVN: like CVS, but it works"
14:06<@planetmaker>it's about... as ancient as a Coelacanth
14:06<@Terkhen>when the project started, SVN did not exist
14:07<frosch123>Terkhen: CVS is even a shock for svn users
14:07<frosch123>but maybe you can ask about using RCCS instead :p
14:07<andythenorth>although it seems ancient, SVN is a relatively recent innovation
14:08<andythenorth>I read 'history of version control' last year somewhere
14:08<frosch123>[20:06] <Terkhen> when the project started, SVN did not exist <- my company converted all cvs repos to svn some years ago
14:08<andythenorth>a lot of version control stuff was very theoretical until (relatively) recently
14:08<andythenorth>or maybe I'm just old
14:09<andythenorth>yeah, SVN is 2000
14:09<frosch123>andythenorth: you are correct, cvs is a lot older than svn
14:09<andythenorth>2000 still seems 'modern' to me
14:09<frosch123>2000? i would have though 2003 or so
14:09<@Terkhen>frosch123: I know it is possible, I mentioned that they still use cvs after andy suggested moving from test documents to automated tests :P
14:10<frosch123>but if it is 2000, then cvs might be only twice as old....
14:10<frosch123>wiki says 1990
14:11<andythenorth>oh yes
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14:11<andythenorth>'shell scripts in 1986'
14:11<andythenorth>1986 is definitely 'old'
14:11<andythenorth>I'm not sure I was writing code in 1986
14:11<andythenorth>maybe "ch. chuckie"
14:11<andythenorth>or so on
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14:12<frosch123>rcs is 1982, sccs is 1972
14:13<XxXDukeXxX>Hi guys ;) anyone know a site where i can rent a openttd server :P?
14:13<andythenorth>someone sell him a server, quick
14:13<andythenorth>what happened to the plan to charge $2 for newgrfs btw?
14:14<andythenorth>me and pikka invented it
14:14<andythenorth>mostly me
14:14<andythenorth>so we could be rich
14:14<oskari89>Pay for newgrfs :O
14:15<andythenorth>pay for download via bananas
14:15<@planetmaker>andythenorth: but as appstore OpenTTD gets 30%
14:15<andythenorth>I thought rubidium would negotiate harder actually
14:15<oskari89>But why?
14:15<andythenorth>I assumed he had Steve Jobs-like negotiation skills, and would take 50%
14:15<andythenorth>I assumed paypal fees would be 30% because Paypal are fuckers :P
14:16<andythenorth>leaving me and pikka with 20% between us
14:16<XxXDukeXxX>but really is there no company where i can rent a openttd server? i was @ serverFFS but i dont get the activation emails :P
14:16<andythenorth>pikka has about 1m downloads, and I (with a lot of help) have 700k
14:16<andythenorth>so we'd be rich
14:17<oskari89>The main thing was free of charges for everything :P
14:17<@planetmaker>XxX there are no pre-setup OpenTTD servers as far as I know
14:17-!-roadt [~roadt@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
14:17<@planetmaker>but any VPS will do. Preferrably if it runs linux
14:17<@planetmaker>make for easier administration
14:17<@Terkhen>XxXDukeXxX: to my knowledge there is no specific company but ^
14:17<XxXDukeXxX>damn :P is it easy ?
14:17<oskari89>andythenorth: What would you do with that money?
14:18<andythenorth>make newgrfs of course
14:18<@planetmaker>XxXDukeXxX: depends on where you start from
14:18<@Terkhen>it will be easy as soon as someone takes advantage of the admin port to write a cool program :)
14:18<XxXDukeXxX>:P i just made a server on my comp but thats easy ^^
14:18<andythenorth>pikka could make newgrfs full time
14:18<@planetmaker>XxXDukeXxX: doing it on a VPS is not (much) more difficult, if it is already a properly setup VPS
14:19<andythenorth>I have too much fun in my job, but I could pay minions to make my newgrfs :P
14:19<oskari89>Andythenorth: If you ever make money with those, i would see that money would be paid for artists too :P
14:19<XxXDukeXxX>hm ok well then i go look for a little vps :P
14:19<XxXDukeXxX>thx you all ;)
14:19<andythenorth>what are artists?
14:20<oskari89>If someone other has contributed to your sprites?
14:20<@planetmaker>andythenorth: doubtful. Even if we assume that 10% of the downloads would be paid for it, it'd be a few thousand €
14:20<@planetmaker>probably not enough for a year to live on
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14:20<andythenorth>we'll be rich :)
14:20<andythenorth>but we'll have to spend most of it on customer support :P
14:21<andythenorth>and an OS X developer
14:21<frosch123>yeah, developing a proper osx would be an idea
14:22<frosch123>[20:20] <andythenorth> we'll be rich :) <- instead of money you should rather reach for real values, e.g. cakes
14:23<andythenorth>the joy of money is that is convertible into useful stuff
14:23<andythenorth>like cakes
14:23<@planetmaker>:-) Or make ot postcard-ware
14:23<andythenorth>money in itself is pretty pointless
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14:23<oskari89>If i had millions of money, i would hire at least one full-time coder to work with patches which i want go to trunk :P
14:23<frosch123>yeah, you are reliying on always finding someone stupid enough to give you something useful for the money
14:24<andythenorth>oskari89: that probably wouldn't work
14:24<andythenorth>they'd still need reviewing
14:24<frosch123>yup, and there is noone doing fulltime review
14:24<oskari89>And one OTTD Dev ;)
14:24<frosch123>also it would not be ottd anymore :p
14:25<oskari89>I would like to spend money (if i had loads of it) to OpenTTD developing :P
14:25<@Terkhen>besides developing, careful consideration of what should and should not be included is what made OpenTTD what it is now
14:25<frosch123>for ottd tons of stuff is discussed. that would fail if there is only one spending all day on it
14:26<frosch123>it would be a one-man-show instead of a shared-effort
14:29<telanus>Is anybody active with the Afrikaans Translation?
14:29<frosch123>you could pay somenoe to create graphics
14:29<oskari89>Better choice would be funding current devs for to accelerate their work :P
14:29<frosch123>but it would be a separate grf, no option for opengfx etc
14:30<andythenorth>frosch123: fork!
14:30<@Terkhen>telanus: it has many untranslated strings (196) so my guess is that it does not
14:30<@Terkhen>let me check how much time has passed since the last translated string
14:31<telanus>I could, Since it's my home Language
14:31<@Terkhen>nice, if you are interested check
14:31<@Terkhen>that page explains what you need to do
14:31<oskari89>Funding patchmakers would be another option also :P
14:32<frosch123>andythenorth: yeah, it would be the death of ottd :p
14:32<frosch123>funny, isn't it? if you want ottd to die, just pay someone to work on it :p
14:32<andythenorth>money changes everything
14:32*andythenorth once did a competition to make something with about 9 other people
14:32<andythenorth>we won
14:33<andythenorth>there were only enough prizes for about 6 people
14:33<andythenorth>this caused...problems
14:33<andythenorth>but we didn't get into it for the prizes
14:33<andythenorth>we got into it for fun
14:34<andythenorth>but putting all that aside...
14:34<andythenorth>$2 for bananas
14:34<oskari89>I assume if you are going to make money with those, there will be others too following you :P
14:34<andythenorth>oskari89: all grfs would be $0.99 - $1.99
14:34<andythenorth>in US $
14:34<@planetmaker>andythenorth: but... why?
14:34<andythenorth>we'll bill that way due to currency risk in certain other currencies
14:35<andythenorth>planetmaker: why not :D
14:35<@Terkhen>because GPL :P
14:35<@Terkhen>at least in your case ;)
14:35<andythenorth>GPL allows sale
14:36<@Terkhen>it does, along with many other rights
14:36<@planetmaker>OpenTTD itself has not need to make that profit. Thus we have no need to invest time in that part of the software. ... The problem with that idea is: "if you ask for money you need to guarantee service"
14:36<@Terkhen>telanus: last change to afrikaans was in 2012-02-27
14:37<andythenorth>maybe we should try crowdfunding
14:37<andythenorth>it's very popular atm
14:37<@planetmaker>would probably work even
14:37<andythenorth>but the SVN page links to this older version of it:
14:37<__ln__>People are not prepared to pay such huge amounts as $1.99.
14:37<@Terkhen>what would we use the money for?
14:37<oskari89>And should payment be one-time only or pay for each update :P
14:38<telanus>Thanx Terkhen
14:38<@planetmaker>by the minue
14:38<andythenorth>I think frosch123 already established that the goal is 'cake'
14:38<@Terkhen>cakes are not expensive
14:38<andythenorth>gold cakes
14:38<@Terkhen>yeah, portal did that
14:38<andythenorth>also, we could buy TTDPatch and merge it
14:38<frosch123>cool idea
14:38<andythenorth>how much does TTDP cost?
14:39<andythenorth>we could buy Atari!
14:39<oskari89>I assume, that when someone makes money with OpenTTD, Atari sues someone in lawsuit, copying TTD in commercial terms or so :P
14:40<andythenorth>not if we pre-emptively buy Atari
14:40<andythenorth>as a defensive measure
14:40<andythenorth>but otherwise maybe :P
14:40-!-Zuu [] has joined #openttd
14:40<@Terkhen>TTDPatch is (to my knowledge) GPL, so it is compatible with OpenTTD already
14:40<andythenorth>we should merge them in that case
14:40<frosch123>cool, then we only need to pay someone to merge it :p
14:41<@Terkhen>not that assembly code will help you at all to write C++ code, besides for checking how they do things
14:41<andythenorth>I requested a list of what needs to be merged
14:41<andythenorth>as it is apparently a serious and important goal
14:41<@Terkhen>yeah, someone requested custom bridgeheads recently too :)
14:41<@Terkhen>what else was missing?
14:41<andythenorth>Terkhen: apparently much
14:42<andythenorth>apparently the list is so long that it is taking a very long time to make it
14:42<@Terkhen>what list?
14:42<@Terkhen>who is doing it?
14:42<@Terkhen>oskari89: that page is outdated
14:43<andythenorth>Captain Rand agreed it was a good idea
14:43<andythenorth>and he has set the goal for version 2.0
14:43<@Terkhen>~25 different town growth controls <--- for example, OpenTTD now has NoGo, which means scriptable town growth
14:43<frosch123>how many town growth controls does nogo equal? :p
14:44<andythenorth>tickbox feature war?
14:44<andythenorth>'this one goes to 11'
14:44<@Terkhen>wow, that thread is still going on?
14:44<frosch123>someone should make a nogo with exactly those ttdp options :p
14:44<andythenorth>nah, it went silent after I asked for a list
14:45*andythenorth wonders if a new forum skin would make things seem fresher
14:45*andythenorth currently uses 'silver something'
14:45<andythenorth>or however it's named
14:45<@Terkhen>andythenorth, the thread killer
14:45<andythenorth>I do that to real life conversations too
14:45<andythenorth>you don't want me at your dinner party :P
14:45<andythenorth>or on your table at a wedding
14:46<@Terkhen>I never saw you doing it here in IRC :P
14:46<andythenorth>IRC doesn't encourage nitpick replies
14:46<andythenorth>nitpick replies cause a particularly silly kind of argument
14:47<@Terkhen>exactly the kind of arguments the OpenTTD community is lacking :P
14:47<oskari89>I think that if stuff is commercial (graphics), there must be 32-bit, 16-direction Full-zoom sprites :P
14:47<oskari89>In case of trainsets..
14:48<@Terkhen>I would kill myself if I was forced to code 16 direction for OpenTTD
14:48<@Terkhen>the other things you mention are already in
14:48<andythenorth>Terkhen: it's ok, Eddi|zuHause already did it :P
14:48<andythenorth>you can live a little longer
14:48<@Terkhen>what, killing himself?
14:48<@planetmaker>Terkhen: that's only 2x what we have now
14:48<@planetmaker>I think Eddi did 3x
14:48<@Terkhen>because I'm sure no one drew 16 directions of all sprites :P
14:48<Eddi|zuHause>i coded 24
14:48*andythenorth is pretty certain Eddi|zuHause just generated n
14:48<@planetmaker>3x :-)
14:49<@Terkhen>nice :O
14:49<Eddi|zuHause>i did not generate any graphics (yet)
14:49<andythenorth>maybe we should generate AIs and build a server farm to test them
14:50<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: genetic AIs
14:50<@Terkhen>I can't draw at all, people writing programs that can draw is like science fiction for me :P
14:50<andythenorth>Terkhen: it's no more sci-fi than a compiler
14:50<andythenorth>I can't properly understand binary :P
14:50<andythenorth>compilers *are* sci-fi :P
14:50<oskari89>And if someone has 3d-modeling available for 32-bit 16-direction graphics, that can reduce drawing quite a lot :P
14:50<Eddi|zuHause>there are 10 kinds of people in the world
14:50<Eddi|zuHause>ones that understand binary
14:51<Eddi|zuHause>and ones that can not
14:51<andythenorth>no, there are 11
14:51<andythenorth>those who don't understand binary, but do understand that joke
14:51<andythenorth>or are they a subclass of the second group?
14:51<@Terkhen>you can't truly understand the joke unless you can understand binary
14:52<Eddi|zuHause>you can't truly understand recursion unless you can understand recursion
14:52<andythenorth>that is a better joke
14:52<andythenorth>what is recursion?
14:52<andythenorth>will wikipedia tell me
14:52<@Terkhen>to know about recursion you need to ask about recursion
14:52-!-Alberth [] has joined #openttd
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14:52<@Terkhen>hi Alberth
14:53<@Alberth>hi Terkhen
14:53<oskari89>Eddi|zuhause: Is there any screenshots of that 24-direction trainset sprites in a corner?
14:53<andythenorth>I ran across the Chomsky definition recently in a review of a book
14:53<oskari89>I would like to see that :)
14:54<andythenorth>but also recursion in comp sci is mentioned in here
14:54<@planetmaker>oskari89: there's even a NewGRF
14:54<Eddi|zuHause>and then there's partial recursion and all kinds of fun :)
14:56<oskari89>That's nice :)
14:57<andythenorth>Terkhen: the pixel generator isn't magical
14:57<andythenorth>if a bitmap is just a sequence of pixels....
14:57<andythenorth>and if those sequences have any kind of order or pattern...
14:57<andythenorth>then it's trivial
14:59<oskari89>Not on fruit store?
14:59<@planetmaker>oskari89: cets is not (yet) on bananas
14:59<oskari89>Is there thread for CETS?
15:00<@planetmaker>not sure
15:00<Eddi|zuHause>not yet
15:00<@planetmaker>there#s an IRC "thread" ;-)
15:00<@planetmaker>but it has much noise
15:00<Eddi|zuHause>i wanted to try to use andy's pixa, and then see if that suffices for a release
15:01<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: it's released
15:01<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: doesn't mean i know how to use it :)
15:01*Pixa feels suitably used
15:01<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: it's not trival :(
15:02<andythenorth>maybe it will be for you :)
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15:17<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: because it's a framework, pixa needs quite a lot of scaffolding before you get the first sprites out
15:17<andythenorth>the initial setup pays off when you want a lot of small variations
15:21<oskari89>I see there's lots of green placeholder graphics in CETS..
15:21<oskari89>Or that's the new alien train technology! :D
15:22<@planetmaker>soylent green express
15:22<Eddi|zuHause>yes. that's why i didn't open a thread yet
15:22<V453000>I just clone sprites if I have some undrawn train :)
15:22<V453000>so few trains look the same, but it works
15:24<oskari89>Those look good in 90 degree turns :D
15:24<Eddi|zuHause>V453000: but that only works if you have a significant number of trains drawn :)
15:25<V453000>:D true
15:25<Eddi|zuHause>we have only some steam engines drawn, and a minority of the wagons
15:28<andythenorth>friendship cake is recursive
15:29<andythenorth>are fractals often recursive?
15:29<andythenorth>is recursion scale-free?
15:29-!-telanus1 [] has joined #openttd
15:30<@planetmaker>fractals can be somewhat self-similar. Which can be an effect of recursion
15:31-!-telanus1 [] has left #openttd []
15:32<andythenorth>is andythenorth recursive?
15:33<@Terkhen>ask andythenorth
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15:35<oskari89>Is there OpenTTD records thread?
15:35<@Terkhen>what kind of records?
15:36<oskari89>Trains, largest ones :)
15:36<oskari89>And with largest capacities :)
15:36<@Terkhen>most ingame records are held by openttdcoop, lone madmen can't compete against a group of them working in unison
15:36<@planetmaker>not a global one. #openttdcoop has one:
15:36<@planetmaker>21:36 Webster: #openttdcoop Records: Clients: 26 | Trains: 2666 (PSG#219) - 2522 (PZG#5) - ( 3000 (PSG#180) logic net) | Single cargo type output: 200,169 (PZG#13) | World Pop: 6,150,671 (PSG#201)
15:37<oskari89>I now have a 63 tile-long passenger train with 8785 passenger capacity :)
15:37<oskari89>3980 tons :)
15:37<@planetmaker>coop certainly does not have those
15:38<@Terkhen>you probably have that record :P
15:38<oskari89>And crash.
15:38<@Terkhen>I once killed 2^32 - 1 passengers in a train crash, but I "cheated"
15:38<@Terkhen>s/-1/-the actual capacity of the train/
15:39<oskari89>How many trains? :D
15:39<@Alberth>two, hopefully :)
15:39<@Terkhen>true :P
15:40<oskari89>Did you modify passenger capacities?
15:40<oskari89>For a tiny 3/8 sprite wagon that has 255 passengers? :D
15:40<@Terkhen>I was coding, playing with how the number of dead passengers is calculated
15:41<@Terkhen>and the variable underflowed
15:41<oskari89>How many passengers can be fitted in 64-tile long train anyway in theory?
15:42<oskari89>Passenger wagons have a 255 passenger limit per wagon, do they?
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15:44<@planetmaker>all vehicles actually
15:45<@planetmaker>hm... load amount is not capacity :-)
15:45<@Terkhen>depends, some callbacks don't actually check the sanity of the value :P
15:45<@planetmaker>but also cargo capacity is a byte.
15:45<oskari89>How long is 3/8 wagons in tiles?
15:45-!-Markavian [] has joined #openttd
15:45<@planetmaker>and via CB36 you can probably return a word value
15:46<@planetmaker>8/8 is half a tile
15:46<Eddi|zuHause>3/16 of a tile
15:47<Eddi|zuHause>Terkhen: btw. integer numbers cannot underflow. it's an overflow in both directions. underflow is for float numbers which get rounded to 0
15:48<oskari89>That's 0,1875 tiles per 3/8 wagon :P
15:48<@Terkhen>thanks, I wasn't sure if that was the right term :)
15:48<@planetmaker>@calc 3/16
15:48<@DorpsGek>planetmaker: 0.1875
15:48*DanMacK just realized OzTrans pulled all the North American stuff down... Talk about ridiculous
15:48<@planetmaker>@calc 3/16 * 64
15:48<@DorpsGek>planetmaker: 12
15:48<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: it's 0.125 + 0.0125 :)
15:48*DanMacK shakes his head
15:49<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: it's 0.175 + 0.0175 :)
15:49<Eddi|zuHause>that's not right either
15:49<Eddi|zuHause>ah, fuck it
15:49<Eddi|zuHause>i clearly cannot calculate
15:50<Eddi|zuHause>it's 0.125 + 0.0625
15:50<@planetmaker>you mean the zig-zag?
15:50<oskari89>Damn, i am engineer in a year or so, i should be able to calculate that..
15:51<@planetmaker>that frightens me now, oskari89 ;-)
15:51<oskari89>@calc 1/3/16 * 64
15:51<@DorpsGek>oskari89: 1.33333333333
15:51<oskari89>No it's not that.
15:52<@planetmaker>@calc 32 * 3/16
15:52<@DorpsGek>planetmaker: 6
15:52<@planetmaker>@calc 16 * 3/16
15:52<@DorpsGek>planetmaker: 3
15:52<@planetmaker>so 6 pixel in -- and 3 pixel in |
15:52<oskari89>That's about... 6*12 wagons?
15:53<@planetmaker>those numbers are for an oblique view along the grid lines
15:53<oskari89>And if every has 255 capacity, that would be 18360 capacity :)
15:53<oskari89>in passengers.
15:53<@planetmaker>oh. But why do you stop at 3/8 length?
15:54<@planetmaker>why not 1/8 ?
15:56<oskari89>Oh, is that available too?
15:57<@planetmaker>should work:
15:58<@planetmaker>i you don't care about ancient OpenTTD or TTDPatch
16:02*andythenorth makes a humble request
16:03<andythenorth>please can we have more newgrf smoke control?
16:03<andythenorth>DanMacK has drawn a very nice steam ship
16:03<andythenorth>maybe we could just do one step at a time?
16:03*andythenorth could help test
16:03<@Alberth>you want to make the ship invisible due to the smoke? :p
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16:07<bremerjoe>Good evening all.
16:07<@Alberth>evenink bremerjoe
16:08<bremerjoe>@ AndyTheNorth: NIce boat. Thinking about adding some tailwater? (Hope that was the right word.
16:08<andythenorth>it has it
16:08<andythenorth>one of them is stopped ;)
16:09<@Terkhen>hi bremerjoe
16:09<@Alberth>is "_gen_" what I think it is ?
16:09<andythenorth>Alberth: no
16:09<andythenorth>unless my generator lives in Canada
16:09<@planetmaker>Alberth: generation
16:09<andythenorth>or you think _gen_ means 'generation' ;)
16:10<@Alberth>I heard the Internet exists there too :)
16:10<@Alberth>but probably I am wrong :)
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16:15<V453000>andythenorth: I would probably make the grey of the trunk 1 shade brighter
16:15<V453000>otherwise amazing of course :)
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16:16<andythenorth>DanMacK drew it ;)
16:16<andythenorth>needs smoke
16:16<andythenorth>I *could* generate smoke hard-coded in the sprites
16:16<@Alberth>the task speaks newgrf-ish, a language which I don't know, unfortunately
16:17<andythenorth>cbs are actually quite easy to hack
16:17<oskari89>If that 1/8 wagon had 255 passengers, 64-tile train could have 55080 passengers :)
16:17<andythenorth>you just trust whatever result you get back :P
16:18<andythenorth>frosch123 could explain it :)
16:18<andythenorth>we don't need to ship it in 1.2.0, I will happily test a patch for it
16:18<andythenorth>could be first big feature for 1.3
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16:19<DDR>What's cooking?
16:19<@planetmaker>the art to mix food and other ingredients and come up with a tasty meal
16:20<DDR>Ah, I'd always wondered where this 'food' came from.
16:21<@planetmaker>you mean the green stuff, soylent green stuff? I guess from "factories"
16:21<DDR>So, they have cooking factories? How convenient, I was just getting a bit hungry.
16:21<DDR>I was down to saltines. :(
16:22<oskari89>I'm hungry, i'm going to have a cheddar-ham sandwich.
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16:23<DDR>Anyhow, with this mystery solved, andythenorth -- what is this feature?
16:23-!-KritiK_ is now known as KritiK
16:24<andythenorth>for newgrf vehicles
16:24<andythenorth>mostly ships
16:24<DDR>Like, the little puffs that come up from a labouring engine?
16:25<DDR>That'll be nice.
16:26<@planetmaker>but andy just went through his personal cupboard of shelved newgrf features and pulled a random one out :-P
16:26<@planetmaker>the shelf of 'nice to have' ones
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16:31<V453000>by the way ... is there any chance vehicle_type_id could be available for purchase menu?
16:32<DDR>Hey, quick question, how do I remove AIs from in-game?
16:32<@planetmaker>from the console
16:32<@planetmaker>maybe followed by the number
16:33<DDR>Ah, perhap I should be more clear. :P How do I remove it from the list of AIs which can start?
16:33<Rubidium>V453000: I don't see the point/use for it
16:33<DDR>Though, funnily enough, that was my next question. :P
16:33<DDR>I've downloaded a few, but I'd like to remove some of the road-hogs.
16:33<Rubidium>V453000: as all vehicles within the same purchase menu are of the same vehicle type
16:33<@planetmaker>there is a way, but I don't know how, DDR :-)
16:34<andythenorth>V453000: you're doing something with articulated chains?
16:34<@planetmaker>Rubidium: in NML that's the engineID
16:34<V453000>I just have one switch block which is meant to control all speeds of all vehicles for example
16:34<Rubidium>V453000: or you mean the engine type, but then that's just an internal ID that has no relation with the actual ID you used in your NewGRF
16:35<V453000>which it does, but the purchase menu cannot accept that
16:35<andythenorth>V453000: you need templating?
16:35<V453000>cant do that under windows eh
16:36<DDR>Where are downloaded newgrfs kept?
16:36<@planetmaker>readme section 4 tells you :-)
16:36<@planetmaker>depends on OS
16:36<andythenorth>V453000: you could write a massive branching switch
16:36<DDR>I skimmed the readme a bit much, I guess.
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16:36<@planetmaker>Line 188 or so
16:36<V453000>andythenorth: tell me more :)
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16:37<@planetmaker>I even remember the line from my browser's URL. So often this question is asked ;-)
16:37<andythenorth>either NML can get the engineID as a var, or if it can't do that in buy menu, you just hard-code them
16:37<andythenorth>because *you* know the IDs :P
16:37<andythenorth>it's not ideal though
16:37<andythenorth>sounds to me like you're working around the lack of templates :)
16:37<andythenorth>but if your problem is simple, I guess it will work
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16:39<andythenorth>if you're nearly finished with your grf, it's probably not worth learning templating now
16:39<andythenorth>if you have a lot more to might consider it
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16:58<drac_boy>heh hi again
16:58*drac_boy is sorta half zzz but still ok now -_-
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17:04*FLHerne fails to fix another assertion fail
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17:04<Pikka>ying tong yiddle I po?
17:04<andythenorth>hello Pikka bird
17:04<Pikka>hello Anne Dee
17:05<andythenorth>have a boat
17:05<andythenorth>it's free
17:05<andythenorth>for now
17:05<andythenorth>until we bring the $2 charge in
17:05<Pikka>free boat!
17:05<drac_boy>nice one andythenorth
17:05<andythenorth>I think a boat for $2 is a bargain
17:05<Pikka>enormous yacht
17:05<andythenorth>and I'm so generous, I'll include about 30 more
17:05*Pikka must to coffee, berb
17:05<@planetmaker>hell-o Pi-kaBird
17:05<andythenorth>we had a godwin event
17:05<andythenorth>how silly
17:06<@planetmaker>but he didn't lose
17:07<bremerjoe>I heard AndyTheNorth even provides free wakes with the boat! :)
17:08<@Terkhen>I'll buy your NewGRFs for -2$
17:09*andythenorth used to have a monopoly game where the game respected -ve amounts, but the computer players saw them as +ve
17:10<andythenorth>so you could offer -2,000 for Pall Mall, the computer player would sell it to you as a good deal, and send you the money :P
17:10<@Terkhen>heh :P
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17:26<frosch123>andythenorth: if i purchase support for heqs, does that include playing the game for me? and if, how many games per month do i get with the standard service package?
17:26<andythenorth>frosch123 "there's no fixed limit, but we'll let you know if you're using more than is average for your package, compared to other customers"
17:27<andythenorth>"it may be that you'd benefit from an upgraded support package"
17:27<andythenorth>number of games is unlimited
17:27<andythenorth>you can also play multiple games at once if you have multiple openttd
17:27<frosch123>no, i asked how many you would play for me
17:28<andythenorth>we can tailor a package to your needs
17:28<andythenorth>some customers find it more convenient to pay day rates
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17:29<andythenorth>frosch123: what volume of games do you need?
17:29<bremerjoe>gotta go. Good night everybody!
17:29<andythenorth>and how long does a game last?
17:30-!-bremerjoe [] has quit [Quit: ajax IRC Client]
17:30<frosch123>a 2kx2k map with everything connected
17:30<drac_boy>is it too complicated to ever think about or can you have one industry with randomized inputs?
17:30<andythenorth>drac_boy: it's a cb
17:30<andythenorth>14D or somewhere near there
17:30<frosch123>you can randomise it on construction
17:30<andythenorth>it breaks the cargo chain map in game
17:31<frosch123>i.e. pick 3 out of many
17:31<andythenorth>'breaks' == renders incorrect
17:31<drac_boy>andythenorth I was actually thinking of third-y (whats a word that comes after 'secondary' anyway?) industry that could accept some cargos if the player choosed to
17:31<drac_boy>eg ports
17:31<andythenorth>or tertiary
17:31<drac_boy>heh ok thanks
17:32<frosch123>yay, i spelled it the same as andy \o/
17:32<andythenorth>tertiary is strictly about services etc when I last looked it up
17:32<andythenorth>but I usually mean 'third in the chain' :P
17:32<drac_boy>so well yeah one way it could go was you start a new map and then you see that the port accepts hmm lets say COAL,PAPR .. so you could decide to deliver to there instead of to the normal powerplant/printworks industry
17:33<drac_boy>its not really doing anything to the industry chain other than adding a new dropoff point for it
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17:35<andythenorth>Pikka: nibbles
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17:35<drac_boy>andythenorth so any comment on that sort of port-or-so optional industry with randomized inputs?
17:36<Pikka>does it?
17:36<andythenorth>it's an idea that has been around a long time
17:36<andythenorth>I was going to do it in FIRS but never got around to it
17:36<andythenorth>players will probably like it
17:36<andythenorth>Pikka: roadtypes!
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17:37<drac_boy>andythenorth ah ok, so it wasn't just me wondering about that idea, thanks
17:37<drac_boy>well I'll see if I want try introduce it or not :)
17:37<andythenorth>Pikka: newgrf smoke!
17:38<andythenorth>[is maybe something you would write a spec for?]
17:38<Pikka>but who will code?
17:38<andythenorth>all your newgrfs have all the smoke they need :(
17:38<andythenorth>I coded a cb once
17:38<andythenorth>it never got included
17:38<Pikka>more smoke!
17:38<Pikka>everything needs to produce six kinds of smoke constantly!
17:38<andythenorth>I did the other version of 'wagon can be attached' or something
17:38*andythenorth forgets
17:39<andythenorth>oh yes
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17:39*Pikka does a UKRS2+
17:40<andythenorth>scrap wagons!
17:40<andythenorth>clyde puffer!
17:40<Pikka>on rails!
17:40<andythenorth>on water silly
17:40<Pikka>I think my puffer is somewhat larger scale than your ships?
17:41*DanMacK thought it scaled out close though
17:41<andythenorth>and somewhat the inverse of your 'make everything smaller trend'
17:41<Pikka>my plans with ships, such as they were, were to have a rather smaller maximum size than FEESH
17:41<andythenorth>DanMacK: I have it coded in fish, but it doesn't look right alongside the others tbh :(
17:41<andythenorth>with all due respect to mr bird
17:41<DanMacK>no, it doesn't
17:42*Pikka codeth deez wogans
17:42<andythenorth>use nfo
17:42<andythenorth>I reckon
17:43<DanMacK>Well, they're about 70-90 feet long roughly...
17:43<drac_boy>andythenorth btw it was 14B/14C .. only mentions that its for patch 2.6+ .. does ottd have it too?
17:43<andythenorth>DanMacK: it's about the right length, bit fat, bit high
17:43<DanMacK>So that'd be small or large trader size?
17:43<andythenorth>small - the Rockall
17:44<drac_boy>hmm random outputs....not sure I want to try that
17:44<andythenorth>historically they are the same line of ships
17:44<Pikka>bit fat, bit high. sounds like my cousins from up north.
17:44*andythenorth doesn't mean to be rude :)
17:44<andythenorth>the Rockall freighter is basically a VIC
17:45<andythenorth>based on RMAS Bee
17:46<Pikka>andy, when are we getting all kinds of fancy load graphics for FISH?
17:46*DanMacK thought it was maytember
17:46<@Terkhen>good night
17:47<andythenorth>could be maytember
17:47<andythenorth>bye Terkhen
17:47<andythenorth>they are quite sticky uppy
17:47*andythenorth thinks they might look a bit silly :P
17:48*andythenorth had better put the recycling out and go to bed
17:48<andythenorth>tomorrow is another day of toil
17:50<drac_boy>I know I've asked a bit about push-pull before probably but I'm wondering about something a bit different...
17:50<drac_boy>articulated trains that wouldn't take on any seperate wagons .. can they be operated in push-pull or because its not a locomotive+wagon consist it just wouldn't quite work?
17:52<andythenorth>it's just varaction 2 afaict
17:52<andythenorth>unless I miss something
17:53<andythenorth>anyway, bed
17:53<andythenorth>good night
17:53<drac_boy>bye andythenorth
17:53<Pikka>as usual, andythenorth misses little
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18:05*drac_boy is going to eat out now
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18:12<DanMacK>!seen wally
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19:22<drac_boy>pikka so anyhow the reason I had asked about articulated set in push-pull was because I was thinking of certain fixed trains that never turn around more or less to put it that way
19:23<drac_boy>especially rack electric trains which more or less often were just coach-loco or coach-coach-loco for most of their trips
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19:42<Eddi|zuHause>that probably has a different reason. on steep tracks, it's customary to always have the engine at the lower end, since it has the highest braking power
19:43<drac_boy>eddi well I could think of a reason to have it always pointing on the lower side (aka push-push) for some arctic map that would have one town on the mountain flattop and next town all the way down by the coastline ... many of the times its a 7+ tiles straight climb
19:44<drac_boy>could be an interesting alternative gameplay where you can just build a straight slow line rather than taking the long zigzag way around
19:44<drac_boy>but I'm just thinking about the idea tho. doubt how useful it could be to actually implent
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19:47*drac_boy has more pressing matters anyhow :-s
19:53<Eddi|zuHause>i'd rather have actually backwards-driving trains instead of magic newgrf trickery in those cases
19:55<drac_boy>well...problem is that you can't run a consist backward without the push-pull or creating a 1hp/1kn locomotive as a wagon and put the actual locomotive on the rear
19:55<drac_boy>unless theres something else I hadn't thought of
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20:02<Eddi|zuHause>yes. this is not implemented (yet)
20:04<Rhamphoryncus>The game reverses for you. What you need to do is cheat the graphics to *undo* the reverse and make it look like it's backwards
20:05<Rhamphoryncus>one set does this
20:05<Eddi|zuHause>Rhamphoryncus: that horribly fails as soon as you have vehicles of different length
20:05<Eddi|zuHause>Rhamphoryncus: or vehicles from different grfs
20:05<Rhamphoryncus>of course
20:05<Eddi|zuHause>and that's why i said i do not want this
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20:16<drac_boy>just wondering about this but does the cargo payment rate like plateau at some point above zero no matter how many days its even been?
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21:07<Rhamphoryncus>drac_boy: google for "openttd game mechanics"
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---Logclosed Fri Apr 13 00:01:00 2012