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#openttd IRC Logs for 2012-04-13

---Logopened Fri Apr 13 00:01:00 2012
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02:40<andythenorth>Pikka: bon jour
02:40<Pikka>mornig andy
02:40<andythenorth>probably not for you :)
02:48<andythenorth>Dan redrew the Puffer a bit :)
02:51<Pikka>cool :)
02:51<Pikka>btw, do I need to put scrap in TaI?
02:51<Pikka>otherwise your scrap wagon will never be available ;)
02:52<andythenorth>up to you :)
02:52<oskari89>Pikka: I think that is good idea, maybe in form of scrap metal ;)
02:53<oskari89>FTS has Obrk and Elo-t wagons for scrap metal :)
02:53<andythenorth>if you're rivet counting a-little-bit-but-not- too-much, they're similar to coal boxes as well :P
02:53<Pikka>but that would mean I need to put coal loads in them
02:53<Pikka>and I was too lazy
02:53<Pikka>also presumably other loads
02:53<andythenorth>just add scrap then :P
02:53<Pikka>where does scrap come from
02:54<Pikka>how is babby formed?
02:54<oskari89>Scrap metal comes from scrap yards :)
02:54<oskari89>As in that case.
02:54<andythenorth>from eels
02:54<andythenorth>in both cases
02:55<Pikka>unfortunately there are no eels in TaI
02:55<andythenorth>does pikkawiki have a list of what there is?
02:55<Pikka>nope, don't think so
02:56<Pikka>anyway, junkyards? accepts nothing, produce scrap metal?
02:56<andythenorth>pretty much
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02:56<Pikka>accepts robert lewellyn, produces TV shows
02:56<andythenorth>also that
02:57<andythenorth>scrap in FIRS
02:57<andythenorth>the label kept changing :P
02:57<andythenorth>silly FIRS
02:57<Pikka>it seems like adding coal loads to the wagon would be less work :)
02:57<Pikka>I have changed the label in UKRS to the new one
02:57<andythenorth>SCMT is the label-du-jour
02:57<oskari89>FIRS changed scrap metal to scrap? :O
02:58<andythenorth>scrap / scrap metal /s
02:58<andythenorth>or whatever your translator thought it should be ;)
02:59<oskari89>Why, scrap metal is just good what it was on FIRS 0.7.1.
02:59<oskari89>Scrap could be separate from that :P
03:00<Pikka>turns out that the tube trains in UKRS2+ always use "real" colours, even if the parameter isn'
03:00<Pikka>t set
03:00<Pikka>and I don't remember if that's deliberate :)
03:01<Pikka>it is now!
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03:04<andythenorth>time for toil
03:04<andythenorth>at least I like my toil :P
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04:36<dedomraz>hi, is there a way to add freshly downloaded newGRF sets to already started game?
04:38<dedomraz>ok, i got it.. the answer is no :]
04:40<V453000>dedomraz: scenario_developer = true in [gui] ... but please do not make any bug reports or complain if you break your savegame with changed newGRFs
04:41<V453000>it is possible to add them mostly, sometimes even remove. Depends on the newGRF, try ;)
04:41<V453000>but make a backup
04:50<MNIM>baaack it the fuck up, indeed.
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04:52<MNIM>it takes a bit of messing around, though.
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05:11<@planetmaker>removing nearly never is a good idea
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05:13<dedomraz>V453000: \o/ thanks a lot... dun worry, just wanted to try something...
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05:24<dedomraz>yay! the game survived it.. just applied some newer versions and new train/vehicle sets...
05:28<dedomraz>thanks a lot, bye
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05:42<V453000>recompiling a newgrf which is loaded in the game doesnt always bring the best results either xD
05:44<drac_boy>heh what you trying to do anyway?
05:45<V453000>just drawing sprites and compiling them right away when having the newgrf open in the game
05:45<drac_boy>ah heh...what grf?
05:45<V453000>my newgrf ... nuts unrealistic train set
05:45<V453000>version 0.0.7 on bananas now
05:47<Eddi|zuHause>Connery or Moore?
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05:49<drac_boy>oh is that the one with the funny locomotives including the boxy LOGIC ones?
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05:57<V453000>drac_boy: yes that one ... I believe it isnt just and only funny locomotives though :)
06:05<drac_boy>what made you think of it in the first place tho? :)
06:08<drac_boy>or not too sure? :p
06:09<V453000>hm? :)
06:09<V453000>what do you mean?
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06:13<drac_boy>what made you think of that crazy trainset? :p
06:15<Eddi|zuHause>he saw everybody making realistic train sets, and wanted to do the exact opposite :)
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06:21<drac_boy>well the Bloodwork one makes me thinking it should have red splatters on it but..I guess that may offend some people tho :p
06:23<drac_boy>V453000 just wondering, these multi-coloured ones that look like 2-car sets ... are they only for pax?
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06:25<V453000>sort of as Eddi said. I think it is a shame when nobody bases a train set on train stats and on how it works ... so I did. The weird trains are there ... just cause my imagination brought me to that
06:26<V453000>multi coloured you mean the monorail mentally disturbed class?
06:26<drac_boy>no the ones like eg Mind Machine
06:26<FLHerne>drac_boy: Mornig
06:26<V453000>yes, local class - passenger/mail/gold/valuables/diamonds only
06:27<FLHerne>*Morning, even :P
06:28<drac_boy>V453000 heh ok
06:28<drac_boy>hi FLHerne
06:29<drac_boy>V453000 you want to know what you could add for one more wagon if you still have room? :)
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06:32<V453000>guess I dont
06:34<drac_boy>Blackhole Matter Container :p ... could be something for all cargos with absolutely no cap on it :)
06:34<drac_boy>not sure if thats going a bit too far tho :)
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06:35<drac_boy>how're you FLHerne?
06:35<FLHerne>drac_boy: Ok, thanks. You?
06:35<drac_boy>ok for now, at least theres nothing for most of the day now
06:36<V453000>yes that is... a step away I would say shortly :p
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06:43<Rhamphoryncus>drac_boy: just have to tweak the load time so it takes *forever* to get anything out ;)
06:47<drac_boy>Rhamphoryncus thats too funny :p
06:48<Rhamphoryncus>Something like a space compression field is not entirely implausible.. so long as unlike hollywood you don't quietly forget that mass is retained
06:49<drac_boy>Mary Poppins? :)
06:49<drac_boy>she pulled a floor lamp out of her bag
06:49<drac_boy>although I guess thats probably technically hammerspace
06:50<Eddi|zuHause>more like the movies where miniaturized humans get injected into somebody's blood
06:52<Rhamphoryncus>A 300 pound man compressed to 1 mm³ would do bad things to the ground, nevermind your body
06:53<Eddi|zuHause>where outside america do you find 300 pound men? :p
06:54<drac_boy>where they play sumo games? :)
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06:58<Rhamphoryncus>If my math is right.. a little over 1 TPa. Enough to go through diamond
06:59<Rhamphoryncus>Oh, and that's assuming they spread their pressure evenly over 1 mm³..
07:00<Rhamphoryncus>err 1 mm²
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07:46<FLHerne>Could someone who knows more about how the game works help me with a patching issue? (again)
07:53<Rhamphoryncus>What's up?
07:54<FLHerne>Assertion fails again...settings_gui.cpp, line 1039 r23000
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07:55<FLHerne>I bumped a patch from r22731, but I can't see what changed
07:55<DanMacK>Hey all
07:55<drac_boy>hi danmack
07:56<FLHerne>Rhamphoryncus: Sorry, found it :-(
07:56<Rhamphoryncus>s'all good
07:57<FLHerne>Someone should write a program that automatically detects what a patch does, then modifies current trunk to do the same thing :P
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07:59<Rhamphoryncus>Alan turing just rolled over in his grave
08:01<FLHerne>A compiler that didn't redo a whole file just for a change in one line would be nice, too.
08:01<FLHerne>Might not work, though :P
08:02<Rhamphoryncus>There's been some work in that direction, but it's never 100% effective
08:03*Rhamphoryncus ponders it
08:04<FLHerne>Semi-colon-eating monster repellent, too...
08:04<Rhamphoryncus>That's easy to solve.
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08:41<Eddi|zuHause>FLHerne: i can do one-line changes in openttd that potentially affect all other lines
08:45<FLHerne>Eddi|zuHause: <FLHerne: Might not work, though :P>
08:47<Rhamphoryncus>And "never 100% effective"
08:48<Rhamphoryncus>I can think of ways to get a lot closer.. but meh, this isn't a language design channel
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08:54<Eddi|zuHause>well, you could make a preprocessor that e.g. splits the source into smaller compile-units (e.g. single functions), and then make a diff-based approach to determine which functions need recompiling
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08:55<Eddi|zuHause>(i.e. you diff the preprocessor output with the last preprocessor output)
08:56<Eddi|zuHause>but the semantical effort you need to put in there may make it worthless, because just compiling the whole thing will be faster
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09:03<Rhamphoryncus>I'm not thinking strictly C
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10:08<Rhamphoryncus>planetmaker: First step at improving the UI, without changing functionality:
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10:20<@planetmaker>hm, what is actually new, Rhamphoryncus?
10:21<Rhamphoryncus>That's a good sign ;)
10:21<Rhamphoryncus>No accept/rating button. It's one screen
10:21<Rhamphoryncus>And the right size, but I could do that with the existing window
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10:22<@planetmaker>hm, ah :-) Yes, it's a good sign
10:22<@planetmaker>The problem with this layout probably is, if you transport the whole range of ECS or FIRS cargos
10:22<@planetmaker>it gets very lengthy
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10:23<@planetmaker>Though it might not be a real issue. It just needs auto-resize of the station view window then
10:23<Rhamphoryncus>It does
10:23<Rhamphoryncus>Notice those windows are different size?
10:23<@planetmaker>I didn't :-P
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10:24<@planetmaker>but yes
10:24<Rhamphoryncus>I've tested with up to 4 cargos supplied. Had to cook it up as I couldn't find a save with more than 2 *g*
10:24<@planetmaker>I'm sure we have some coop game with a distribution hub which has many
10:24<Eddi|zuHause>Rhamphoryncus: probably should add a scroll bar if more than 3
10:25<@planetmaker>maybe an idea. Though 3 is not much
10:25<@planetmaker>but that number or the max size can be easily adjusted once it's there
10:25<Eddi|zuHause>alternatively: put the rating next to the waiting number
10:26<Rhamphoryncus>When I have that window open I want to see the ratings, which the current code has at a fixed height of of 12 types
10:26*drac_boy thinks I'm maybe a bit lost now :-s
10:26<Eddi|zuHause>and have just lists in the supply/accept field
10:26<Rhamphoryncus>Eddi|zuHause: that'd be nice, but very different
10:26<Rhamphoryncus>It'd require horizontal expansion
10:27<Eddi|zuHause>Rhamphoryncus: for a simple string "81 Passengers (67% - Very good)"?
10:28<Rhamphoryncus>one moment, I'll make a screenshot
10:35*Rhamphoryncus kicks gimp in the nards
10:38<Rhamphoryncus>It has the tools to do what I want quickly and easily. They don't *work*, but it has them.
10:39<Rhamphoryncus>Okay, making progress again
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10:41<drac_boy>hi andythenorth
10:41<andythenorth>DanMacK: o/
10:42<Rhamphoryncus>Putting way too much effort into this :D
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10:45<drac_boy>andythenorth hows your grf work going btw?
10:46<DanMacK>Hey Andy
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10:46<drac_boy>ah ok
10:47<drac_boy>was wondering how long you couldn't be sane for :p
10:49<Rhamphoryncus>I think you're right though, at least if the descriptive "very good" is removed
10:49<Rhamphoryncus>Maybe a little bit wider, but not a lot
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10:50<drac_boy>hmm I see what you mean now
10:50<drac_boy>only one question is, could it be optional?
10:50<Rhamphoryncus>Optional is a copout
10:50<@planetmaker>Rhamphoryncus: I like the more compact right version
10:51<@planetmaker>maybe (mediocre, 45%)
10:51<@planetmaker>instead of mediocre (45%)
10:51<drac_boy>sorry Rhamphoryncus I meant for the right window..not both
10:51<Rhamphoryncus>*nod* the punctuation is easy to change
10:51<drac_boy>unless the window can shrink to a shorter width without losing the white label readability
10:51<Rhamphoryncus>But the left shows 12 wood icons. The right only shows 3.
10:52<Rhamphoryncus>I think (45%) would work
10:55<Rhamphoryncus>I don't want to lose the text, it's.. descriptive.. but it's the least important bit of information
10:55<drac_boy>actually I never cared for the icons too much but mm
10:56<Rhamphoryncus>They provide a quick visual indicator of both the type and quantity
10:57<drac_boy>can't read that 3000+ is too many .. and thats its wood?
10:58<Rhamphoryncus>In a healthy station it never exceeds the 12
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11:12<Eddi|zuHause>Rhamphoryncus: maybe move the text one line below the icons?
11:13<Eddi|zuHause>and then include a stationlist-style icon as well (short name with two bars below it)
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11:26<Eddi|zuHause>Rhamphoryncus: on the station list you get a small icon containing the "short name" (e.g. "PA" for passengers), a bar indicating the waiting amount, and a bar indicating the rating
11:26<Rhamphoryncus>Well I have to lean in close to read that, so..
11:27<Eddi|zuHause>sure, but i always wondered why that was the only place this was used
11:27<Rhamphoryncus>It's a good idea but just too small
11:30<Eddi|zuHause>maybe time to review the style of that icon :)
11:32<Rhamphoryncus>Maybe later. Hopefully this will turn into a series of UI tweaks that make openttd friendlier to touch screens, as well as desktops. Much of that will involve increasing the size
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11:58*Rhamphoryncus kicks gimp in the nards again
11:58<Rhamphoryncus>hit ctrl-z to undo a change.. and it stuck, undoing 30 changes
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11:59<TinoDidriksen>So, just Redo until you get where you wanted to be.
12:01<Rhamphoryncus>I didn't hit the button too quickly.. somehow I got most but not all back
12:07<Rhamphoryncus>The reason I did it that way was for when transfers are expanded.. but I don't like it
12:08<Rhamphoryncus>Maybe a horizontal flip, so the cargo icons are at the right and the text is at the left..
12:08<drac_boy>hmm only one small issue I could see would be that some people normally assume that eg the 2% would apply to wood rather than milk .. that is if they weren't looking at the top of the scroll
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12:10<OfficialRyan>Hi, is anyone actually online?
12:12<OfficialRyan>no-one at all?
12:12<TinoDidriksen>OfficialRyan, yes...
12:13<drac_boy>Rhamphoryncus what if you tried do it as just 'wood' for first line followed by '170 tonnes waiting (good 78%)'?
12:13<TinoDidriksen>You can't wait just 2 minutes and declare a place dead. Even channels with 700 users can be quiet for over an hour.
12:13<OfficialRyan>well, no-one is answering...
12:13<drac_boy>answering != quiet
12:13<OfficialRyan>Anyways. May I ask a question?
12:14<TinoDidriksen>Just ask.
12:14<TinoDidriksen>Don't wait for anyone to say they're there...
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12:14<OfficialRyan>How do I create a 'drive-thru' train station?
12:15<Rhamphoryncus>drac_boy: yeah, that 2% applying to up vs down is a problem
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12:17<DanMacK>that was fun
12:18<drac_boy>what was? :)
12:18<DanMacK>my disconnect
12:18<DanMacK>Andy disappeared as well while I was DC'd apparently
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12:21<drac_boy>I'm going for lunch anyway
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12:21<teggi>any "cheat"/patch to avoid the slowing down of trains in slopes?
12:22<teggi>couldn't find anything in the settings, but i might've missed it :p
12:27<Eddi|zuHause>use a different acceleration model?
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12:34<FLHerne>teggi: Advanced Settings - Vehicles - Trains - Acceleration model [original]/[realistic]
12:34<FLHerne>Something like that, anyway
12:35<FLHerne>IIRC, original has a high penalty for slopes, realistic affects slopes less but causes trains to slow down more on corners
12:35<ccfreak2k>Original has an obscene penalty for slopes.
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12:37<FLHerne>Any helpful devs? I bumped infra-sharing a bit more, but I've got another bug that I can't fix :-(
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12:41<Rhamphoryncus>FLHerne: Ask me again, I shall solve it like the last time
12:41<FLHerne>ha :D
12:42*oskari89 would like to see IS in trunk :)
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12:42<FLHerne>Patch has this bit:
12:42<oskari89>Infrastructure sharing :P
12:43*andythenorth added a ticket to CHIPS
12:43<andythenorth>was trying to get the issue count to 0 :P
12:43<DanMacK>WB Andy
12:44<FLHerne>but when applied to r23100, I get a compile error. Looked at the docs, I really don't get how it's meant to work :-(
12:44<andythenorth>I have no good ideas for cargo waiting sprites for grain, wheat etc
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12:47*andythenorth rejects the 'grain cargo' ticket
12:47<andythenorth>I want at least one project with zero tickets :P
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12:49<andythenorth>anybody want to draw sugar beet cargo waiting sprites?
12:50<Rhamphoryncus>I can try. They'll be hideous, but I can try :)
12:50<andythenorth>try :)
12:50<andythenorth>piles of beets waiting
12:50<Rhamphoryncus>After I figure out FLHerne's issue
12:52<andythenorth>^ scrap metal
12:52<andythenorth>needs to be like that, but it won't heap the same
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12:52<andythenorth>and colours are less oxide, more mud :P
12:52<andythenorth>I have psds if that helps - repo here
12:53<andythenorth>DanMacK: drawn any sugar cane ever?
12:53<Rhamphoryncus>OOooh, I thought you meant the icon in the station
12:54<andythenorth>that's done :)
12:56<Rhamphoryncus>FLHerne: it seems that ->dest can be the StationID if ->type == OT_GOTO_STATION
12:56<andythenorth>beet piles
12:56<andythenorth>cane piles
12:56<andythenorth>I cba to draw them, and will close the tickets if no-one else is interested :D
12:57<Rhamphoryncus>Heh, well that rules out purple, hehe
12:58<FLHerne>Rhamphoryncus: so how come it works in r23000 but not r23100? :-(
12:58<Eddi|zuHause>use heybales, and make them slightly rounder?
13:00<andythenorth>FIRS has haybales
13:00<andythenorth>they're quite yellow
13:01<Eddi|zuHause>recolouring? :)
13:02<NGC3982>irssi connectbot on the galaxy S2 is really refreshing.
13:02<andythenorth>maybe I just close the tickets :P
13:02<Eddi|zuHause>whoaaa my internet is sooooooooooo fast today
13:03<andythenorth>anybody got a clue on this?
13:03<Rhamphoryncus>FLHerne: r23000 and r23100 are svn revision numbers?
13:05<FLHerne>The patch is for r22731, with some tweaking compiled on r23000
13:05<Rhamphoryncus>I.. have no idea. Are you sure it was a full rebuild, not a make hickup?
13:06<FLHerne>Yes, I checked out the source again, then repatched that (including alterations I made before)
13:08<andythenorth>anyone draw these?
13:09<andythenorth>V453000: ? ^
13:09<FLHerne>Found it...stupid typos :-(
13:09<FLHerne>Does IRC have a [facepalm] emote?
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13:09<Rhamphoryncus>I go with x_x
13:10<Rhamphoryncus>Also.. called it. <Rhamphoryncus> FLHerne: Ask me again, I shall solve it like the last time
13:11<FLHerne>Rhamphoryncus: :P Sorry to waste your time again...¯\(º_o)/¯
13:11<FLHerne>SpComb: Nice emote...
13:11<Rhamphoryncus>Not at all. I've wasted my own time on far, far worse things XD
13:15<FLHerne>Rhamphoryncus: It compiles! :D
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13:39<Rhamphoryncus>andythenorth: is scrap metal the currently used sprite?
13:40<Rhamphoryncus>The colouring is a lot like potatoes, so a quick substitution to brown gives decent results
13:41<Rhamphoryncus>Although even better would be reshaped piles
13:44<andythenorth>Rhamphoryncus: yes, they need reshaping really
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: translators * r24114 /trunk/src/lang/polish.txt:
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: polish - 15 changes by Kilian
13:48<Rhamphoryncus>What are the different sprites for? Left vs right are track direction I assume. Why 6 levels though?
13:50<andythenorth>2 orientations
13:50<andythenorth>1 track tile, 1 non track tile
13:50<andythenorth>2 load states for each
13:50<Rhamphoryncus>ooh track tile
13:51<andythenorth>so row 1 is: angle 1 low amount, angle 1 high amount, angle 2 low amount, angle 2 high amount
13:51<andythenorth>row 2 and 3 are the N / S sides of the track
13:52<Rhamphoryncus>ahh, the two sides are separate then
13:52<Rhamphoryncus>That covers it, thanks
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13:55<Rhamphoryncus>oooh wow I suck XD
13:58<@Alberth>Rhamphoryncus: you should view as you have plenty of room for getting better ;)
14:01<andythenorth>drawing cargo piles is actually not the easiest place to start :P
14:01<andythenorth>making them look good is a PITA
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14:06<@Alberth>hi Wolf01
14:06<FLHerne>Bye everyone
14:07<andythenorth>did andythenorth mention newgrf smoke?
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14:07<andythenorth>DanMacK is painting more awesome steam ships
14:07<@Alberth>andy speaks with the wrong dev :p
14:08<andythenorth>you weren't born a dev ;)
14:11<@Alberth>I play with computers and programming since I was 14 :)
14:12<andythenorth>you could probably learn enough ottd code to patch smoke :P
14:13<andythenorth>but anyway, I don't want to twist your arm ;)
14:13<andythenorth>I think it's about 5-7 loc needed
14:13*Alberth is happy that andy has so much confidence in me
14:14<andythenorth>step 1: allow newgrf to return x/y/z to a smoke cb
14:14<andythenorth>instead of setting y offs in a prop
14:14<andythenorth>step 2: allow cb to be called n times
14:15<@Alberth>right, nothing much happened since my last openttd update :)
14:15<andythenorth>unrelated patch: make ship smoke specific to ship acceleration
14:16<@Alberth>trains also have smoke trouble iirc
14:16<andythenorth>or rather, untie it from acceleration, make it constant rate if moving
14:17<andythenorth>the alternative is to make a rather complicated framework where newgrf can specify a (new) newgrf effect vehicle, and an animation rate etc
14:17<andythenorth>which I dislike as overkill
14:17<@Alberth>may be faster
14:18<andythenorth>we'd need a whole new class of newgrf object type
14:18<andythenorth>which means extending newgrf format *and* all the authoring tools
14:18<andythenorth>and writing an adequate spec
14:18<andythenorth>teaching the tools about a new cb is not so hard
14:18<@Alberth>oh, I meant faster/cheaper in execution :p
14:20<@Alberth>source is too big, compiling takes forever :)
14:20<andythenorth>get more cores :P
14:23<Rhamphoryncus>Sun position? Straight east?
14:24<andythenorth>SEE or SSE
14:24<andythenorth>or SE
14:24<andythenorth>but not E :)
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14:25<Rhamphoryncus>east being right side of the screen?
14:26<andythenorth>light is basically 4-5pm on a conventional clock face
14:26*Rhamphoryncus nods
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14:34<@Alberth>ieks, more 'IsPrimaryVehicle' functions :(
14:34*andythenorth adventures into code
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14:40<ashb>i think /sb end
14:40*andythenorth never quite gets C++
14:45<andythenorth> } else if (v->type == VEH_SHIP) {CreateEffectVehicleRel(v, x, y, 10, EV_DIESEL_SMOKE);}
14:45<andythenorth>^ certainly increases the amount of smoke ships create :P
14:45<andythenorth>might need a bit of random in there :P
14:45<andythenorth>l2292 in vehicle.cpp
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14:49<andythenorth>that shouldn't be an else if
14:50<andythenorth>Terkhen might like this patch idea :D
14:50<andythenorth>it's related to acceleration and things :)
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15:03<Rhamphoryncus>Is Terkhen working on acceleration?
15:08*Alberth is still at line 2111
15:08<Rhamphoryncus>I realized part of the issue I have with hills is that a 5 tile train going up a single hill (set to 1%) is actually only 0.2%. It's over much too quickly. It should have a larger effect on the train
15:09*andythenorth was hacking at the 'ships need constant smoke' aspect, which is a separate patch :)
15:10<Rhamphoryncus>yeah, clearly ;)
15:10<@Alberth>change the percentage :)
15:11<Rhamphoryncus>Alberth: the other part of the problem is jamming
15:13<@Terkhen>Rhamphoryncus: I already finished acceleration (for road vehicles)
15:13<Eddi|zuHause>Rhamphoryncus: yes. the full 3% only hit when the full train is on a slope...
15:13<Rhamphoryncus>Terkhen: ahh, that's why he mentioned you
15:13<Eddi|zuHause>which is a bit silly
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15:14<Rhamphoryncus>Eddi|zuHause: yeah
15:14<Eddi|zuHause>similar to curve speed, which also depends on train length, this needs a clever idea...
15:14<@Terkhen>I wanted to call it "improved", not realistic :P
15:15<@Terkhen>but... hysterical raisins
15:15<Eddi|zuHause>Terkhen: lots of things missing from "realistic" acceleration
15:15<@Terkhen>maybe "somewhat satisfying acceleration, that takes into account a few factors" would be a better name
15:15<andythenorth>Terkhen: can I persuade you to a patch?
15:16<@Terkhen>depends, which one?
15:16<Rhamphoryncus>My goal is to have different engines suitable in different cases. That means being impossible to jam at lower power ratings (with reasonable choices) and having low speed high power engines be *faster* in hilly regions than high speed lower power engines
15:16<@Terkhen>Rhamphoryncus: that should be happening already with high slope %
15:16<@Terkhen>at least to some degree
15:17<Eddi|zuHause>Rhamphoryncus: just hack out the averaging over the train length, or increase the %
15:17<Rhamphoryncus>Not in my experience
15:17<andythenorth>Terkhen make ships emit smoke (effect vehicle) constantly (with a random interval delay) - there's a switch at l2246 in vehicle.cpp
15:17<Rhamphoryncus>If I crank things up enough I just get jams
15:18<@Terkhen>andythenorth: sounds somewhat boring :P
15:18<andythenorth>it's a nice small patch ;)
15:18<@Terkhen>Rhamphoryncus: what changes would you suggest? making simple changes to the acceleration model is quite simple
15:18<Rhamphoryncus>Terkhen: I'm not sure yet. :/
15:19<@Terkhen>checking that different models make the game slower is harder :P
15:19<@Terkhen>are you comfortable with compiling?
15:19*Rhamphoryncus looks at the bajillion terminals he has open
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15:20<@Terkhen>the acceleration formulas are located only in two places and they are simple to change
15:20<@Terkhen>I can point you to them if you are willing to experiment a bit
15:21<Rhamphoryncus>sure. Probably won't today but in the future perhaps
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15:21<@Terkhen>let me see...
15:24<@Terkhen> <--- PowerChanged handles power and tractive effort, CargoChanged handles weight, and GetAcceleration calculates the actual movement given power, cargo, and current slope/speed
15:24*Rhamphoryncus nods
15:26<@Terkhen>there might be other details lying around, but most of the stuff is done there, and it will affect both road vehicles and trains
15:31<Rhamphoryncus>and GetSlopeResistance being in the header
15:33<@Terkhen>yes, vehicle specific values are in each header :)
15:33<Rhamphoryncus>Just the one in that case
15:35<Rhamphoryncus>What I have in my map is an up, a flat, an up, 4 flat, and an up. I would call that moderately hilly
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15:45<@Terkhen>I did my RV tests with flat, 2, flat, 4, flat, 15, and then a lot of different curves
15:45<@Terkhen>the 15 is to avoid the notorious 1 km/h bug
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15:56<Rhamphoryncus>1 km/h bug meaning jams?
15:56<Rhamphoryncus>If a train gets stopped it never gets going again?
15:57<@Alberth>trains have a minimal speed of 1km/h, unless stopped
15:57<@Alberth>but it's a tad sllllooooooooooooowww to travel to a depot that way :)
15:58<Rhamphoryncus>yes, and if you're using a grasshopper and it jams on a slope then I'm just going to laugh at you. Or more likely myself *g*
15:58<oskari89>I had once 1 km/h bugs with 40 tile length trains..
15:58<@Alberth>oh, it's much easier, a steep hill and some loaded coal wagons do the trick quite well :)
16:00<Rhamphoryncus>But right now.. 10% slope, 5 tile train on the flat/flat/1/flat/1 and if I stop it takes quite a while to start moving
16:00<oskari89>I have CC's patchpack demo scenario..
16:00<oskari89>It has 13 km tall mountain with city on top..
16:00<@Alberth>Rhamphoryncus: perhaps you are moving in the wrong direction ;p
16:00<Rhamphoryncus>The same trains drop from 180 to 160 if they don't get stopped
16:00<Rhamphoryncus>me throws peanuts at Alberth
16:00<oskari89>And 64 length stations on top and bottom, and trains...
16:01*Alberth catches them and eats some
16:01<oskari89>Nice to see that when train goes downhill, it can't be stopped unless next signal shows red :)
16:02<Rhamphoryncus>I might try treating deceleration as much more rapid than acceleration
16:02<@Alberth>Rhamphoryncus: nicely realistic, where getting up to speed is also the main problem
16:02<Rhamphoryncus>realistic != fun
16:03<@Alberth>perhaps, but it does make you think what engine(s) to use
16:03<Rhamphoryncus>And only realistic in isolation anyway
16:04<Rhamphoryncus>No? 99% of the time they never slow enough to matter
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16:06<Rhamphoryncus>You never pick engines for efficiency, ie average speed on that line. You'd only pick them to avoid jams
16:07<@Alberth>I pick them on reliability, and then speed
16:08<@Alberth>but I play OpenGFX+ sets and with breakdowns enabled, so not a typical OpenTTD player :)
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16:27<@Terkhen>Rhamphoryncus: sorry, I was AFK... the 1 km/h limit is enforced to avoid incorrectly defined NewGRF road vehicles to stop completely when you switch from original to realistic
16:27<@Terkhen>but it is still too annoying
16:28<@Terkhen>I had to make sure that none of the default RVs had that problem on slopes
16:28<Rhamphoryncus>Ahh, like horses that have 0 HP
16:28<@Terkhen>yes, exactly
16:28<Rhamphoryncus>A corner case so you can at least get them back into the depot eventually. Which I've had to do. Thanks for putting it in there :)
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16:29<Rhamphoryncus>I've since learned to turn off realistic acceleration if I'm using horses
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16:31<@Terkhen>hi drac_boy
16:31<@Terkhen>Rhamphoryncus: eGRVTS has a beta with correct realistic acceleration values, but to my knowledge it is not being worked on
16:32<Rhamphoryncus>On slopes again: a "heavy freight" engine may give you 10% more TE. Adding a second engine would double it. Merging two or three trains into one longer train would give you double or triple. Altering the signal alignment, which alters the weight distribution of engine vs cargo when the train does stop, is probably around 10%
16:34<Rhamphoryncus>On a TL5 adding or removing 1 car is around 10%
16:34<drac_boy>Rhamphoryncus I always wondered if it was plausible to make a grf that had a cap on how much total tractive a single train could have but just can't bother looking into it just yet tho
16:35<Rhamphoryncus>drac_boy: sure, but that's just stabbing the player in the back. You can also limit total train length
16:36<Rhamphoryncus>drac_boy: If you want to encourage different engines then make the TE sweep be a 2x difference, not 10%
16:36<drac_boy>Rhamphoryncus well I was just thinking about these cases where the 'real life' couplers or other factors are a limit
16:36<@Terkhen>you can handle that kind of consist dependent limits via callbacks
16:36<drac_boy>eg some cases I know of with heavy drag freight electrics was that one could run at 100% but two together only could run at 80% each ... and you weren't allowed a third
16:37<Rhamphoryncus>The line only has so much power?
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16:37<drac_boy>Rhamphoryncus no it was just a matter of 410kN being fine .. but 820kN would had probably broke couplers left and right .. so it was limited to <800kN when doubleheaded
16:38<Rhamphoryncus>Well, that has various workarounds depending on the era
16:38<drac_boy>I thought it was probably too much trouble to effect into a grf so up to now I still haven't looked much into it :)
16:38<drac_boy>but still its a thought nevertheless
16:39<Rhamphoryncus>Coupler designs changed, you can put the second engine at the back (but that has communication difficulties), these days the communication can be fully automated which gives you the mammoth trains
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16:40<Rhamphoryncus>Technologically it's conceivable today to build a train that wraps the planet.
16:40<drac_boy>heh yeah
16:40<drac_boy>mind you some of the early attempts in usa were interesting
16:41*Rhamphoryncus really hopes he does a train set some day
16:42<drac_boy>Southern Railway for example took a radio control wagon and couple it to between one to three standard locomotives mid-train .. and it worked for its time. was a lot less costly that refitting each locomotive individually
16:42<drac_boy>sometimes other railroads even just gutted an old carbody B unit that they didn't have a use for .. and put the electricals+radio in that
16:42<Rhamphoryncus>Yeah, that built on direct slaving. Locomotive is connected directly to another.
16:43<drac_boy>mind you its very rare but there can be odd tripups or accidents with remote locomotives
16:43<Rhamphoryncus>I bet
16:44<drac_boy>I remember one story where an UP train had stopped for a signal then it started up...only (as fbi eventually suspected) someone closed the hoses and dropped the coupler ahead of the mid-train slave unit...
16:45<drac_boy>and since the front part was a bit lighter than the rear ... you had a "ghost" train .. it was following the actual one for a while till someone finally figued out what was happening and told the crew to plug it up (which also plugged the brakes on the remote unit too)
16:45<drac_boy> could had been a lot more serious tho :-s
16:45<Rhamphoryncus>Oh yeah
16:46<Rhamphoryncus>Whole thing sounds like a giant bodge, but nobody ever asked my opinion ;)
16:46<drac_boy>one of the hardest thing with remote units is that you don't know how well they're operating tho....
16:48<drac_boy>eg one story was of a 2+1 locomotive train .. photographer noticed that as the train accerlated after a caution signal the lone mid unit was throwing up a lot of black smoke everywhere from a failed turbine ... photographer questioned if the engineer must have later complained about lack of power
16:48<frosch123>yay, bug reports in the form of videos :)
16:48<drac_boy>if the third locomotive had been up front .. it would had been obvious, go figure
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16:48<Rhamphoryncus>Sounds like little to no feedback from various sensors. Possibly the sensors don't exist.
16:49<drac_boy>well this was the early days... so they probably didn't have good 2-way slave controls yet :)
16:49<Rhamphoryncus>Yeah, mesmerized simply that they could do it at all
16:49<drac_boy>the original FRED had no braking capacity I think .. but eventually they did add one in after all
16:50<Rhamphoryncus>A good remote car starter today is probably more advanced
16:50<drac_boy>Rhamphoryncus there are always a lot of stories about early tech working when you didn't think they would :) or other things like that
16:50<drac_boy>and btw years ago noone would give a second thought to smoking a cigarette while inspecting a turbine locomotive .... heh!
16:51<drac_boy>now .. well .. don't bother trying it .. you might get slapped by that overwhelming "safety board" on the same day
16:51<drac_boy>such are things :-|
16:51<Rubidium>frosch123: and it isn't even a bug ;)
16:52<frosch123>the income could be displayed directly after flooding
16:53<frosch123>but, likely not worth the effort :)
16:53<drac_boy>Rhamphoryncus if you could start one btw what kind of train grf would you probably had first thought about looking into?
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17:13<drac_boy>hmm have anyone ever seen locomotives listed by tons rather than kN or lbs for tractive?
17:15*drac_boy can't figure out how to convert :s
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17:23<drac_boy>guess I'll just have to write down the ton number for now and get the actual number later
17:25<drac_boy>oh tonne-force no wonder I couldn't get any luck from the wiki search before
17:25<drac_boy>thanks, thats helping a lot
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17:36<@Terkhen>good night
17:39<drac_boy>bye Terkhen
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17:48<drac_boy>hi andythenorth had a good break? :P
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18:04<drac_boy>going off for supper as usual :)
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21:37<Endymion_Mallorn>Hey all. I have a crazy question. Especially in 1.1.1 and 1.1.5, is there any way to preview the length of a particular engine or car without purchasing it?
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---Logclosed Sat Apr 14 00:00:03 2012