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#openttd IRC Logs for 2012-04-14

---Logopened Sat Apr 14 00:00:03 2012
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00:33<Endymion_Mallorn>Sorry for disconnecting earlier right after asking the question, my 'net went out. Allow me to reiterate. Is there any way for me to tell the length of a particular car or engine before purchase?
00:34<Endymion_Mallorn>(I mean from within OpenTTD during gameplay, not by viewing the NewGRF outside the program.)
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00:39<Pikka>no, Endymion_Mallorn
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00:45<Endymion_Mallorn>Well, that sucks. Any way you could whip up a patch/NewGRF to do that?
00:48<Eddi|zuHause>NewGRFs can put in additional purchase information
00:48<Eddi|zuHause>ask the developer of the GRF in question to do it
00:49<Endymion_Mallorn>Well, it's not like it could be added to every train. What I want is just for the game (or the hack) to simply read the train length and report it along with the cost and so on.
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00:56<andythenorth>Pikka: herr bird!
00:56<Pikka>andrew!
00:57<andythenorth>ciao
00:57<Pikka>oui!
00:58<Pikka>"to simply read the train length" does not compute, Endymion_Mallorn
00:58<Endymion_Mallorn>I meant car or engine.
00:58<Pikka>likewise
00:59<Endymion_Mallorn>And how does it not compute? Doesn't every car, either default or in a NewGRF, have a length variable set somewhere?
00:59<Pikka>yes
00:59<Pikka>but that is not necessarily the length you'll get when you build the vehicle
00:59<Endymion_Mallorn>Huh?
00:59<andythenorth>eh?
01:00<Pikka>indeed
01:00<andythenorth>should I read the logs?
01:00<Pikka>the question is "Is there any way for me to tell the length of a particular car or engine before purchase?", andy
01:01<Endymion_Mallorn>So what you're saying is that somehow, if I purchase the 4-4-0 Edwardian (Steam), there's a way for it to not have a length of 0.4?
01:01<andythenorth>what's the case for it?
01:01<andythenorth>you want to build trains of certain length? [to fit stations?]
01:02<Endymion_Mallorn>Partly that, and partly to get as close to 7.0 (which is the longest a train can move?)
01:03<andythenorth>http://wiki.openttd.org/Advanced_Settings/Vehicles
01:03<andythenorth>1.4.4
01:04<Pikka>Endymion_Mallorn: the "shorter vehicles" property will tell you that the 4-4-0 Edwardian in UKRS2 is 6/8 of a full vehicle length.
01:05<Pikka>when you build it, it is 9/8 of a full vehicle length
01:05<Pikka>thus reporting the "length variable set somewhere" is not very useful to you :)
01:06<andythenorth>and also, the length can be 1/8 on all Tuesdays, but 3/8 on Thursdays if it's raining
01:06<Pikka>yes
01:06<Endymion_Mallorn>So the length rules for trains are based on Fizzbin.
01:06*Endymion_Mallorn headdesks
01:07<Pikka>Endymion_Mallorn: build the train you want to build
01:07<Pikka>and when it ends up 6.8 tiles long instead of 7 tiles long, don't care.
01:07<Pikka>problem solved.
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01:11<Endymion_Mallorn>See, there's the rub - that whole 'don't care' bit.
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01:11<Pikka>so you pick train locomotives based on the fact that they'll give you a nice round number, rather than power, speed, etc?
01:12<Endymion_Mallorn>Honestly? I usually pick by reliability.
01:12<Endymion_Mallorn>I don't play multiplayer very often, so...
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01:13<andythenorth>use the original train set
01:13<Pikka>everything's the same length there
01:13<andythenorth>all lengths are consistent
01:13<andythenorth>you're stuck on an MP server with someone else's rules?
01:16<Endymion_Mallorn>Nope. Just playing my own game with a bunch of NewGRFs for variety.
01:18<Pikka>!seen danmack
01:18<Pikka>or something like that
01:18<Pikka>how do you work these bots
01:19<andythenorth>@seen danmack
01:19<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: danmack was last seen in #openttd 12 hours, 35 minutes, and 50 seconds ago: <DanMacK> WB Andy
01:19<andythenorth>I haz seen him
01:19<Pikka>buying vegetables
01:21<andythenorth>Pikka: tried CHIPS?
01:21<Pikka>not lately, andy
01:21<andythenorth>nvm
01:22<xiong>Endymion_Mallorn, it's not clear to me... but what do you mean by the statement that a length-7 train is the "longest a train can move"??
01:23<xiong>Trains can be of great length. The critical relationship is between train and platform; trains loading at platforms shorter than they are, load very slowly and this is Bad.
01:24<Pikka>andy, you should recruit Andrew350 for FISH too.
01:24<xiong>The station-building GUI only has lengths up to 7 but you can build much longer stations in sections, limited only by station spread.
01:25<xiong>In fact, I strongly urge long trains. The longer a train, the more cargo it carries per train. Many network costs are per-train -- for instance, breakdown disruptions.
01:26<xiong>A given length of straight track, no matter how signaled, carries more cargo per unit time if long trains are employed.
01:27<Endymion_Mallorn>Ah, but that requires changing a setting. The default maximum is 7, is it not?
01:27<xiong>Note that this is made possible by multiheading. To test out my statement, simply combine trains in an existing network by pairs -- drop Train 2 onto the back of Train 1 with the same orders.
01:27<xiong>I have no idea what the default is for most things; I've changed all that I find inconvenient.
01:28<xiong>I can't even *see* the default game; the font is too small.
01:28<Endymion_Mallorn>Ah. I see. So essntially, the reason it can't move more than 7 cars is a lack of HP?
01:28<xiong>Oh no.
01:28<Endymion_Mallorn>So you use OpenGFX+ BigGUI?
01:28<xiong>You may well have engines that can haul far more than 6 tiles' worth of cars.
01:29<xiong>No, I tried BigGUI, it was too big. I just changed the font.
01:29<Endymion_Mallorn>...Okay...
01:30*Endymion_Mallorn is still basically a newb, so, try to be a little specific, what I would need to change to enable this, etc.
01:30<xiong>The "standard" length of an engine or unpowered car is 1/2 tile; so 14 such is 7 tiles.
01:30<xiong>Does the small font annoy you, too? Screens are bigger now and higher resolution; that kind of font made sense in the era of 640x480.
01:30<Endymion_Mallorn>Things like 2cc, UKRS, NARS, and the like add in longer and shorter cars then?
01:31<Endymion_Mallorn>Not at all, actually. I'm usually running 640X480 16bit. When needed I go up to 1024X768 32bit.
01:31<xiong>Yes, various train sets have cars with various lengths. It was hairy for a time but now the game itself supports decimal train lengths, to one decimal place, clearly.
01:32<xiong>I cannot imagine how to run more than a rudimentary layout at low res.
01:32<xiong>I'm at 1280x960 and thinking how much I'd rather have... about four times as many pixels.
01:33<Endymion_Mallorn>Good grief.
01:33<xiong>I get into exactly the same thing that drove me, when running graphics editors on the Mac back when, to go to a second monitor. I put the main drawing on one monitor and all the menus and palettes on the other.
01:34<xiong>I find it convenient to keep open a large number of windows -- vehicle, station, depot.
01:35<Endymion_Mallorn>Ah, I see. I don't have that issue. Then again, I hate multi-display setups with a passion. I like doing one thing at one time.
01:35<xiong>Um, as for how to change the font, if you don't have a large screen, you may run into difficulty quickly. The larger font means larger windows, because they are proportioned... in some way... from the title bars and button texts.
01:35<andythenorth>Pikka: I should. WSF were on the 'todo' list
01:35<xiong>Multiple displays are a pain but it was a solution. Today, you can buy flat panels of any arbitrary size, depending on wallet.
01:35<Endymion_Mallorn>I don't change the font. When my eyes wouldn't go back from double-vision for a while, I used BigGUI.
01:36<Endymion_Mallorn>I use an old IBM T42 laptop.
01:36<xiong>Sorry; about what should I be specific? I love to be specific.
01:37<Endymion_Mallorn>What you already were, about the standard length and so on.
01:37<xiong>Ah.
01:38<Endymion_Mallorn>Though I also would like to know if you're running with different options for max vehicle length.
01:38<xiong>Well, you'll eventually settle into your own groove; but I can recommend some things I consider pretty basic, if you like.
01:39<xiong>There's only one setting for max train length; "very long" or not.
01:39<Endymion_Mallorn>Settings-wise or NewGRF-wise? Because I've found a couple of different ways to do NewGRFs that I find both fun and challenging. Though I am sorely tempted to start trying FIRS and ECS Vectors again.
01:40<xiong>Sorry no, I'm wrong. Now it's a number. I have it set at the maximum, 64 tiles. I don't run trains of that length, though.
01:40<xiong>FIRS, I consider core. Without it, you may as well just play pax only.
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01:41<Endymion_Mallorn>Sorry about that, I just *love* Wi-Fi.
01:41<xiong>AV8, FISH, eGRVTS are all mandatory. I have Sailing Ships since I start in 1850.
01:42<xiong>I'm fussy about stations so I have several station sets installed: ISRS, Canadian, Japanese, US, CHIPS, Czech...
01:43<xiong>New Fences is good; if you have a lot of stuff loading, fiddle with the loading order.
01:43<xiong>TTRS is great, so is (unrelated) TBRS.
01:44<xiong>You want to pick out a train set you like. For me, that's NARS.
01:44<Endymion_Mallorn>I'm not sure I've seen Sailing Ships, I run with 1.1.5 at the moment. I'll go to 1.2 when it gets done by PortableApps.com
01:44<xiong>Well, Sailing Ships is a NewGRF; not related to game version.
01:45<xiong>You can run 1.2.0-RC4; it's no more buggy than 1.1.5, IMO.
01:45<Endymion_Mallorn>Let me check to see if it's there in my Online Content...
01:45<xiong>Hardly bleeding edge.
01:45<Endymion_Mallorn>Having checked, it's not there.
01:45<xiong>Well, no point in Sailing Ships unless you're starting a lot earlier than 1950.
01:46<xiong>Um, check again?
01:46<Endymion_Mallorn>I like to start in '20.
01:46<xiong>Sailing Ships has been around a long time.
01:46*Endymion_Mallorn reloads the "Check Online Content" window again....
01:46*Endymion_Mallorn types "Sail" in Tag/Name filter
01:46<Endymion_Mallorn>Blank.
01:47<xiong>It seems to be sailing_ships-0.5; try GRFcrawler.
01:47<xiong>It may not be something I got from Bananas.
01:47<Endymion_Mallorn>Ah, I tend to only do the ones I can just click on in-game.
01:48<xiong>There are far, far more NewGRFs out there than are on Bananas.
01:48<xiong>Installing outgame is not hard. Basically, you just download and drop it in. You don't usually even need to untarball.
01:48<Endymion_Mallorn>Yes, but it still requires restarting the game.
01:49<xiong>Um, no, sorry, I don't think so. Not restarting the game program, openttd. Obviously, changing NewGRF settings at all during game play is a highly questionable activity.
01:50<xiong>It can be done, mind you. Lots of people do it, nobody will endorse it.
01:51<Endymion_Mallorn>... It's in BaNaNaS, but doesn't show up in the Online Content service.
01:52<Endymion_Mallorn>Really? Wow. (Understand, typically when I say restart the game, I mean actually close the process)
01:53<xiong>Normally, NewGRFs installed ingame... are installed ingame, while the program is running.
01:53<xiong>So this is not an issue.
01:54<xiong>I don't shuffle this stuff around a lot so don't take my word for any particular thing. I've stabilized.
01:54<Endymion_Mallorn>Ah.
01:55<xiong>As for settings: I think it's important to prohibit town from growing on its own. Town growth is cute at first but I'm uninterested. It's cheap enough to build my own "city street" roads and I retain control.
01:55<xiong>I'm not sure which are default now and which not so I'm reluctant to blather on with a whole list.
01:56<Endymion_Mallorn>See, I like letting the town grow - it is interesting to me.
01:56<xiong>Signals, build path signals by default; cycle only through path signals.
01:57<andythenorth>try searching 'ships' it will produce 'Sailing Ships' on bananas
01:57<xiong>All the talk about block signals I consider a form of machismo. At one time, there were no path signals so players learned to do hard things with difficult tools.
01:57<xiong>I have not yet found anything I want to do, that I can do with block signals and not with path signals.
01:57<Endymion_Mallorn>On Bananas, yeah, andy. But not from within OpenTTD.
01:58<Endymion_Mallorn>Personally, I've never really understood either. I just stick with one-ways and two tracks at a time with two trains running on 'em.
01:58<xiong>Autorenew: Turn it on, turn it to -12, and lower the money threshold.
01:58<xiong>Path signals become important in interlocking areas.
01:59<xiong>Maint intervals in percents. I find 15-20 a good idea.
01:59<Endymion_Mallorn>Alright.
01:59<xiong>If you want to get mileage out of a train set, then Freight Multiplier to at least 5x.
02:00<xiong>Then the early, weak engines really are weak and you will need to multihead in order to get any kind of throughput. Later, more powerful engines really will pull more cars.
02:01<xiong>Without the freight multiplier, even a crummy engine will pull a great many heavily loaded trains.
02:01<xiong>New orders are 'non-stop' by default. I don't know why you would want random stopping.
02:01<Endymion_Mallorn>Me either.
02:02<xiong>This setting is irritating. Every order in every order list is prefixed by non-stop. If this is the default, then the *other* alternative should be noted, if so ordered.
02:03<xiong>Um, if you install the latest AV8 then you are told to set plane speed factor to 1/1; the speeds of aircraft in the set have all been properly adjusted for this.
02:04<xiong>Stations: Cargo handling: I think I'm using the defaults here but I'm not sure. Improved loading and load gradually are good.
02:05<xiong>Key are Allow building adjacent and allow building nonadjacent.
02:05<xiong>I've set station spread pretty high; it doesn't slow the game as much as feared. But it leads to reductionist game play: One Big Station.
02:06<xiong>Now, I'm playing with a spread of 16, which is much more challenging; and stations with a max platform length of 12. That's not a distinct setting, just a player decision.
02:07<xiong>Smaller than that and it's hard to run enough trains to carry away cargo available.
02:08<xiong>I mean, if your spread is 8, then no matter how you do it, your biggest station is 8x8. And that allows nothing for feeders.
02:10<xiong>Most of the difficulty settings are a matter of taste; I like to play with a max loan of $300K, which imposes a little discipline early. But for some reason, train reversing is here, not in Advanced.
02:10<xiong>I suggest you do not want trains reversing at stations. I can see some situations where this might be an advantage... but mostly, not.
02:11<xiong>I have never turned disasters on. Life is tough enough.
02:11<xiong>So, Endymion_Mallorn, that's about the key settings, IMO.
02:13<Endymion_Mallorn>Alright.
02:14<Endymion_Mallorn>And you know what, I wasn't even aware of a disaster setting!
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02:17<Endymion_Mallorn>But I gotta run. Pleasure talking to you - I'll be back.
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02:20<xiong>A pleasure; anytime.
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02:44-!-mode/#openttd [+o Alberth] by ChanServ
02:44<@Alberth>moin
02:44<Pikka>hello Alberth
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02:51<Someus>I need good tutorial for building more than one train
02:52<Someus>Should I update to 1.2.0?
02:53<Someus>That traffic light thing
02:54<Someus>OK i found in the wiki
02:58<@Alberth>signals :)
02:59<andythenorth>smoke!
02:59*andythenorth updates his patch
02:59<@Alberth>http://wiki.openttd.org/Tutorial/Two_Platforms
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03:05<Someus>Should I update to 1.2.0?
03:06<andythenorth>hmm
03:06<andythenorth>think my smoke patch pays no attention to game's smoke setting
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03:13*andythenorth has no idea what Chance16 does, but seems to work
03:17<@Terkhen>good morning
03:18<andythenorth>o/
03:19<Pikka>andy is the new patchman
03:19<@peter1138>pikka is the new pikka
03:19<andythenorth>pikka is also the old pikka
03:19<andythenorth>how strange
03:20<andythenorth>peter1138: smoke!
03:20<@peter1138>don't mind if i do
03:20*peter1138 lights one up
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03:22<andythenorth>so how do I prevent terraforming under industry tiles?
03:22<andythenorth>it causes a quite nasty bug
03:22<andythenorth>http://bugs.openttd.org/task/5009
03:23<andythenorth>I can't find anything in the spec about it
03:23<Pikka>it's there, andy
03:24<andythenorth>where? http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/NML:Industries#Industry_tile_properties
03:24<andythenorth>:P
03:24<Pikka>hang on.. :P
03:24<Pikka>cb 14F
03:25<Pikka>http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/Callbacks#Disable_autosloping_.283C.2F14F.2F15D.29
03:25<andythenorth>ah
03:25<andythenorth>'autoslope'
03:25<andythenorth>http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/NML:Industries#Industry_tile_callbacks
03:26<andythenorth>but surely
03:26<andythenorth> autoslope: return CB_RESULT_NO_AUTOSLOPE;
03:26<Pikka>and that "bug" I'm guessing is because cb 14E is disabling drawing the default foundations?
03:26<andythenorth>yes foundations are turned off
03:26<Pikka>well
03:26<andythenorth>this was all solved in the old codebase
03:26<Pikka>:)
03:26<andythenorth>but now there is a new codebase
03:27<Pikka>NML, it's all welsh to me
03:27*andythenorth wonders if NML is broken
03:27<andythenorth>let's see
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03:30<andythenorth>hmm
03:30<andythenorth> 'CB_RESULT_NO_AUTOSLOPE' : 0x01, # callback 0x3C
03:30<andythenorth>looks correct
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03:31<andythenorth>hmm
03:31<andythenorth>smells fishy
03:31<andythenorth> 'autoslope' : {'type': 'cb', 'num': 0x3B, 'flag_bit': 6},
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03:32*andythenorth should stop blaming FIRS code for bugs in nml
03:34<@Alberth>:)
03:35<andythenorth>fixed
03:36<andythenorth>that means all grfs compiled with previous nml are bugged :P
03:36<andythenorth>what larks :)
03:38<@Alberth>only ones that use the cb :)
03:38<andythenorth>well yes
03:38<andythenorth>which is probably FIRS
03:38<andythenorth>and no others
03:40<@peter1138>hmm, i might try migrating my vservers to lxc
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04:44<andythenorth>MB would like freely customisable effect vehicles
04:44<andythenorth>which seems fair
04:44*andythenorth can't code that :|
04:48<@peter1138>DO IT
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04:50<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: an effect vehicle pool, a newgrf feature, a property for an effect vehicle ID, a callback for effect vehicle trigger (e.g. based on animation state), and a callback returning a vehicle ID (and x/y/z offset in register)
04:51<Eddi|zuHause>(where "x" is in travel direction, "y" is orthogonal to travel direction)
04:51<@peter1138>effect vehicle pool? why?
04:51<andythenorth>and then a full set of varaction 2 vars
04:51<andythenorth>and optional cbs
04:51<andythenorth>and performance concerns
04:52<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: for newgrf effect vehicles?
04:52<andythenorth>and having to provide all smoke myself, rather than have the game do it :P
04:52<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: i meant an "effect engine pool"
04:52<@peter1138>oh right, for the engines, not the vehicles
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05:11<@Alberth>moin Zuu
05:12<Zuu>Hello Alberth
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05:14<Rubidium>http://rbijker.net/openttd/realistic_layout.png is definitely a realistic track layout ;)
05:15<@peter1138>oh my god those graphics are so blocky and ugly!
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05:16<Pikka>ez
05:16<Pikka>I wonder how much work it would be to redraw every single sprite in UKRS2 at 4x the size
05:17<@peter1138>load -> scale -> 400% -> save
05:17<@peter1138>;)
05:17<Pikka>yesbut
05:17<Pikka>that would not make it sufficiently fancy
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05:18<Pikka>and yes, I've already tried hx and all the algorithms, they don't produce anything worthwhile.
05:18<NGC3982><@peter1138> oh my god those graphics are so blocky and ugly!
05:18<NGC3982>no they are not :,(
05:18<@peter1138>Pikka, indeed, which is exactly the reason that we didn't use it ingame either :)
05:18<@peter1138>NGC3982, i was joking :)
05:18<NGC3982>peter1138: ;)
05:19*NGC3982 highly respects the ottd game community look on graphics.
05:19<@peter1138>some of the old 32bpp-ez crowd don't like it though
05:19*NGC3982 also cant spell.
05:19<@peter1138>http://fuzzle.org/~petern/ottd/ez10real.png
05:20<Rubidium>http://roodpetje.nl/gefixeerd/media/1/bdm-20050706-096.jpg proves http://rbijker.net/openttd/realistic_layout.png is a realistic track layout ;)
05:20<@peter1138>that was probably the best effort
05:20<@peter1138>but... it doesn't look like ttd anymore
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05:20<NGC3982>uhm
05:20<NGC3982>true
05:20<NGC3982>i dont like that
05:20<@peter1138>Rubidium, only if it's in a station ;)
05:21<@peter1138>hmm, junctions in stations...
05:21<Rubidium>signals in stations!
05:22<V453000>signals everywhere!
05:22<Pikka>hmm
05:22<Eddi|zuHause>multiple trains stopping on one platform, alternating with one long train stopping at the same platform!
05:22<Pikka>signals on signals
05:23<Eddi|zuHause>signals on tile borders
05:23<Pikka>signals on custom bridgeheads hur hur
05:23<V453000>underwater signals?
05:23<@peter1138>signals on aircraft
05:23<Pikka>mixed signals
05:23<Rubidium>dwarf signals
05:23<@peter1138>Eddi|zuHause, train splitting at platforms
05:23<Pikka>splitting distant signals!
05:23<Eddi|zuHause>trains driving backwards
05:23<Pikka>the best kind of signal
05:24<Rubidium>ETCS!
05:24<Eddi|zuHause>Pikka: is that something like spitting distance?
05:24<@peter1138>model railway mode:
05:24<@peter1138>if two trains collide at low speed, they become joined together
05:24<@peter1138>and you have to lift them off the track to separate them
05:24<Eddi|zuHause>double track on one tile!
05:25<@peter1138>contra-fine scale
05:25<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: you can uncouple models without picking them up
05:25<@peter1138>yes but it's fiddly
05:28<@peter1138>drwxr-xr-x 9 mcc mcc 37933056 Apr 14 10:27 backups
05:28<@peter1138>that's quite scary
05:28<@Alberth>quite :)
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05:37<Wolf01>hello
05:39<__ln__>ave lupus
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05:56<andythenorth>he's back
05:56<Pikka>who he?
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05:56<V453000>run away!
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05:56<drac_boy>hi
05:56<Pikka>andy, when you say "MB wants", you meant to say "everyone wants"
06:01<andythenorth>if the class of 'everyone' does not include andythenorth
06:01<andythenorth>it's a bit like roadtypes :P
06:01<andythenorth>we could do them correct in theory
06:01<andythenorth>or we could actually...have them in the game :P
06:01<andythenorth>Pikka: do you have inventive new smoke ideas? :o
06:01<Pikka>yes
06:02<Pikka>we could bodge them into the game
06:02<Pikka>like trams
06:02<Pikka>and then when the time comes to do them properly, we can't
06:02<Pikka>because the bodge is in the way
06:02<Pikka>and isn't allowed to be undone
06:03<@planetmaker>invent 1/8 articulated vehicles which has crazy offsets and looks like smoke
06:03<Pikka>invent articulated ships, planetmaker
06:03<drac_boy>hmm why articulated?
06:04<drac_boy>only thing I can think of that would need to would be tug+barge combo but how many of these would players really know of :)
06:04<Eddi|zuHause>we need 0lu articulated parts
06:05<@planetmaker>with non-zero bounding boxes
06:05<@peter1138>articulated smoke particles?
06:05<@planetmaker>of course!
06:05<Eddi|zuHause>make the bounding box size separate property from vehicle length
06:05<@peter1138>Pikka, what's the plan with trams then
06:06<Pikka>there isn't one, peter
06:06<Pikka>it's too hard
06:06<@peter1138>ikr
06:06<Pikka>my preferred option would be to convert all tram tracks to road
06:07<Pikka>but that's not good enough apparently
06:07<andythenorth>tis too
06:07<andythenorth>hmm
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06:08<andythenorth>also newgrf effect vehicles = layered sprites
06:08<Pikka>also andy seems to think that I am going to code it, when I wouldn't know where to begin ;)
06:08<Pikka>and have plenty of other projects which I do know how to do to be getting on with
06:08<andythenorth>Pikka: you have stolen my words
06:08<andythenorth>in both lines
06:08<Pikka>well I think this is why peter1138 needs to do it
06:08<andythenorth>I have © on "I would do it, but I don't know how and I'm busy"
06:09<andythenorth>peter1138 should do it
06:09<Pikka>see if you can get stevenh back to help
06:09<andythenorth>just to show off
06:09<Pikka>since trams are all his fault in the first place
06:10<drac_boy>heh
06:11<andythenorth>effect vehicles would be an easy way to do load sprites :P
06:11<andythenorth>and other things
06:11<andythenorth>meh
06:14<andythenorth>why are newgrf effect vehicles needed?
06:14<andythenorth>why not just make vehicle varaction 2 with child sprites instead of a single sprite
06:15<@planetmaker>composing wagons from wagon rear, cargo and wagon front would certainly be nice. And probably slow
06:15<@planetmaker>but yes
06:15<@planetmaker>childsprites might be easier
06:15<@planetmaker>and established
06:18<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: smoke as childsprite would turn when the vehicle turns
06:18<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: once emitted, the effect vehicle stays at the same place
06:20<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: no, the newgrf author would write code to handle that
06:20<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: no, he can't
06:21<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: you would have to remember the last positions, and you don't have enough storage for that
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06:21<andythenorth>why?
06:21<andythenorth>hmm
06:21<andythenorth>good point
06:21<andythenorth>but vehicles need storage anyway
06:22<Eddi|zuHause>yes, but specialized game storage, not universal newgrf storage
06:23<Eddi|zuHause>i.e. if you want to use child sprites, the storage must be allocated for every vehicle, even if they don't use it
06:23<Eddi|zuHause>while the storage for effect vehicles is only used when you actually have effect vehicles
06:24<andythenorth>but I can use an effect vehicle as a child sprite
06:24<andythenorth>[fake]
06:24<andythenorth>same net result
06:24<Eddi|zuHause>no, you can't
06:24<andythenorth>why?
06:24<Eddi|zuHause>you cannot access the effect vehicle from the emitting vehicle
06:24<Eddi|zuHause>so you cannot move it parallel to the vehicle
06:24<andythenorth>I don't need to
06:25<andythenorth>emit on every frame
06:25<andythenorth>1 frame cycke time
06:25<andythenorth>cycle /s
06:25<andythenorth>position 0,0,0 or whatever
06:25<Eddi|zuHause>and: effect vehicle creation may be skipped as the game pleases
06:26<Eddi|zuHause>e.g. when the vehicle pool is full
06:26<andythenorth>k so a spec might mention that
06:26<Eddi|zuHause>effect vehicles and child sprites are entirely different things. don't mix the two
06:26<Eddi|zuHause>it makes no sense
06:27<andythenorth>technically yes
06:27<andythenorth>but they will be (ab)used
06:28<andythenorth>for unexpected purposes
06:30*andythenorth ponders flags on ships as effect vehicles
06:30<andythenorth>also wake sprites
06:31<andythenorth>vehicles are going to need a full bounding box specified
06:31<andythenorth>is that a newgrf version bump?
06:34<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: flags, cargo -> child sprites
06:35<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: sparks, smoke -> effect vehicles
06:35<andythenorth>hmm....log trucks emit steam when braking
06:35<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: +1, but we don't have child sprites, probably won't any time soon
06:36<andythenorth>so ev will be used insteas
06:36<andythenorth>instead /s
06:36<drac_boy>andythenorth probably from burning out their brakes... or its the water tank emptying out onto the tires as they were meant to :p
06:36<Eddi|zuHause>we don't have (newgrf) effect vehicles either...
06:36*oskari89 thinks that when some trucks and buses are running on sandy/gravel roads, they should lift some dust into air :)
06:36<andythenorth>+1
06:36<oskari89>When roadtype is sand.
06:36<andythenorth>newgrf particle emitters?
06:37<oskari89>Sth like that :P
06:37<drac_boy>oskari89 problem is that I don't know how you would code that..especially with different vehicle weight and lengths
06:37<oskari89>Vehicles rearmost point automatically?
06:37<drac_boy>plus at 40km/h it probably shouldn't be making much of any dust compared to someting at 70+km/h
06:37<andythenorth>the vehicle handles it
06:37<andythenorth>it's nfo
06:37<oskari89>Ok.
06:38<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: child sprites for vehicles are problematic, because currently the sprite of the vehicle is cached in the vehicle struct, which allows only one (or a constant number) of sprites
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06:38<@planetmaker>oskari89: what's the rearmost vehicle point? :-)
06:38<drac_boy>planetmaker my question exactly :p
06:39<oskari89>Can it be digged from sprite alignment data? :)
06:39<@planetmaker>do you take the bounding box? Or the last non-transparent vehicle? At which y and z-offset?
06:39<oskari89>....
06:39-!-pugi [~pugi@host-091-097-075-030.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has joined #openttd
06:40<oskari89>I understand.
06:40<@planetmaker>"last non-transparent pixel" I meant. But yes :-)
06:41<@planetmaker>Of course, if it's define, a newgrf author can work with it. After all it need not be used. But well :-)
06:41<@planetmaker>but there we are again at andy's smoke offsets :-P
06:42<andythenorth>which incidentally, if done right, don't block a future newgrf effect vehicle spec
06:42<andythenorth>at least if the spec is sane :)
06:43<andythenorth>the offsets go in a register, along with an effect type
06:43<andythenorth>in future, an effect vehicle ID goes in a register
06:46<NGC3982>i wonder
06:46<NGC3982>i so want openttd on my android phone :(
06:47<drac_boy>run an emulator for now?
06:47<drac_boy>sorry if thats not a very good answer :)
06:47<NGC3982>oh, that exists?
06:47<NGC3982>:D
06:52<NGC3982>drac_boy: that is a fantastic answer.
06:52*NGC3982 googles for the life of his.
06:52<andythenorth>steam ships steam ships steam ships
06:52<andythenorth>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/2826/coaster_gen_1b.png
06:52<NGC3982>-his + him
06:52<NGC3982>andythenorth: cute.
06:52<drac_boy>NGC3982 you're a strange one....it would had been obvious to anyone else..if its not on the platform ..emulate the other platform then :p
06:53<NGC3982>drac_boy: well, since ive only had a decent android phone for about 12 hours, im quite new in the community.
06:57<NGC3982>http://sv.appbrain.com/app/openttd/org.openttd.sdl
06:57<NGC3982>what, its already on there?
06:57<NGC3982>first comment: "Doesn't work with Galaxy S II."
06:57<NGC3982>:E
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07:02<@Terkhen>to my knowledge no one bothered to create an android port and try to get it into trunk, therefore all android ports are unofficial
07:03<NGC3982>well, i can see that.
07:04*NGC3982 sticks to pc.
07:04*NGC3982 tries to emulate tropico 2 instead.
07:04<zooks>I made this heightmap using some random fractals and other algorithms, tell me what do you guys think: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/723631/test.png
07:05<drac_boy>hm NGC3982 I just had to look it up now and Tropico seem interesting from the screenshots so far
07:05<drac_boy>zooks doesn't look too bad
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07:06<zooks>It needs rivers though
07:10<drac_boy>think I already have enough retail games to not want to bother with that one yet tho
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07:23<@planetmaker>is blathijs around for a chat concerning build or clean targets?
07:24*drac_boy is thinking a bit too much about rivers now for some reason :-s
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07:24*drac_boy looks at zooks
07:25<zooks>heh
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07:26<drac_boy>hi Rhamphoryncus
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07:27<Rhamphoryncus>ahoy drac_boy
07:28<drac_boy>so I don't think you had told me before, what kind of train grf would you had thought of if you started one?
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07:29<Rhamphoryncus>One focused on gameplay. Large sweeps on the stats to give them clear specialities
07:30-!-KouDy [~KouDy@175.137.102.249] has joined #openttd
07:30<Rhamphoryncus>With regular upgrades available
07:30<Rhamphoryncus>With a transition to some stupid maglev ideas I have :)
07:30<drac_boy>hmm not too sure I can follow but I guess I'll wait for you to eventually actually do it :)
07:31<Rhamphoryncus>Don't hold your breath ;)
07:31<drac_boy>heh :p
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07:32<Rhamphoryncus>Most of the train sets have only a handful of "best" engines. The rest fill real life niches that don't apply to openttd
07:32<drac_boy>what kind of niches do you mean btw?
07:33-!-frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590f5921.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd
07:34<Rhamphoryncus>Well there's hilly vs flat terrain
07:34<drac_boy>if you meant by low speed coupled with high tractive. I like to use these actually
07:34<Rhamphoryncus>Which can be done by having a *slightly* lower top speed with twice the TE
07:35<drac_boy>'slightly' as in 60km/h? :)
07:35<Rhamphoryncus>10 km/h
07:35<Rhamphoryncus>The real life version is only to satisfy accountants :P
07:36<drac_boy>10km/h is too slow for the game heh
07:36<Rhamphoryncus>I mean 10 km/h slower than the flat engine
07:36<drac_boy>does that still make it 60km/h tho?
07:36<Rhamphoryncus>Earliest might be 60 km/h. There will be regular upgrades to both flat and hilly engines
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07:38<drac_boy>ok I probably wouldn't mind it seeing that it wouldn't waste a lot of its time trying to not fly off the curve with a short train :)
07:38<Rhamphoryncus>hmm?
07:38<zxbiohazardzx>ohi ohi
07:38<drac_boy>hi zxbiohazardzx I was wondering when I'll ever see you again :P
07:38-!-peter1138 [~petern@lachesis.fuzzle.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
07:40<zxbiohazardzx>haha
07:40-!-Arafangion [~Arafangio@220-244-108-23.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #openttd
07:40<zxbiohazardzx>meh i usually forget to pop in the OTTD IRC while bouncing around in the TrinityCore (WOW-emulation) ones
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07:42<drac_boy>zxbiohazardzx :-p
07:43<drac_boy>Rhamphoryncus what I think about at times is this kind of curves which is not meant to be done at any sort of high speeds :p http://bpratt15.home.bresnan.net/images/UintahMoroCastle.jpg
07:43<drac_boy>just so you get the idea :)
07:44<Rhamphoryncus>heh
07:44<Rhamphoryncus>Which doesn't exist in openttd. You just go straight up the hill
07:44<drac_boy>actually it does, you not seen the screenshots where they really do have S curves .. sometimes even with 90 degree corners
07:46<drac_boy>but anyway zxbiohazardzx how're you?
07:47<Rhamphoryncus>You mean the ones with the fake curve sprite?
07:48<zxbiohazardzx>im fine
07:48<zxbiohazardzx>just read i missed out on some IRC fun :(
07:49<zxbiohazardzx>@drac_boy those spiral-curves form no problem at all. as long as the banking is sufficient, i recon you could go through @ 50-80 kmph
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07:51<Rhamphoryncus>What happens if you stop with such banking?
07:51<drac_boy>zxbiohazardzx yeah
07:51<drac_boy>Rhamphoryncus nothing, except that any diner cars would have a very tiny slant in the glasses set on table
07:51<Rhamphoryncus>Ah, not so much banking then
07:51<drac_boy>but then I have never ever heard of diner waiters actually filling cups all the way for obvious reason
07:52<Rhamphoryncus>How much curve do you need for 200 km/h? XD
07:53<drac_boy>Rhamphoryncus way too much more than what ottd has
07:53<Rhamphoryncus>huh? Openttd doesn't have banking
07:53<zxbiohazardzx>@Rhamphoryncus depends on the radius
07:54<Rhamphoryncus>zxbiohazardzx: see pic
07:54<zxbiohazardzx>but 200 kmph would mean roughly 85 deg
07:54<zxbiohazardzx>and then you still pull insane G's
07:54<zxbiohazardzx>so no go on designing it
07:54<drac_boy>Rhamphoryncus point is the normal 45 degree curves are relastically not meant for such speed ... you need something a lot more gentler than that
07:54<zxbiohazardzx>@ 200 kmph you want a straight line
07:54<zxbiohazardzx>or as straight as you can
07:54<drac_boy>but it figures
07:54<zxbiohazardzx>with R > 10km
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07:55<Someus>Hi
07:55<@planetmaker>hi
07:55<Someus>I have cloned trains
07:55<zxbiohazardzx>hi
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07:55<drac_boy>hi someus
07:55<zxbiohazardzx>cool?
07:55<zxbiohazardzx>i have shared-order cloned trains
07:55<Someus>And they cloned trains do the same orders
07:55<Someus>How can i give them seperate orders?
07:55*Rhamphoryncus gene splices trains
07:55<zxbiohazardzx>shared orders or actually different
07:55<@planetmaker>just give it separate orders?
07:55<drac_boy>Rhamphoryncus heh
07:55<Someus>Yes
07:55<zxbiohazardzx>Someus if you clone it, you can just remove existing orders and add new ones
07:55<Someus>I can`t figure
07:55<Rhamphoryncus>If they're shared click on the bottom order line that says "shared orders" then click unshare
07:55<@planetmaker>yeah, well. Just give them separate orders
07:56<Someus>When i give seperate orders, it applies also for second train
07:56<zxbiohazardzx>if you intentionally want to keep them the same then control+clone or make it share orders with the other train. to stop sharing, click stop sharing :P
07:56<@planetmaker>or did you never change the orders of an existing train before?
07:56<Someus>:)
07:56<zxbiohazardzx>yeah they are shared
07:56<Rhamphoryncus>They're shared then
07:56<zxbiohazardzx>so click on "end of shared orders"
07:56<Someus>How can i unshare?
07:56<zxbiohazardzx>and click on -> "stop sharing"
07:56<@planetmaker>Someus: don't clone, but copy the train (ctrl+click vs. click)
07:56<Someus>hmm
07:57<Someus>Where is that "end of shared orders"?
07:57<zxbiohazardzx>on the end of the order list
07:57<zxbiohazardzx>it should say either -- End of Orders
07:57<zxbiohazardzx>or -- End of Shared Orders
07:57<zxbiohazardzx>1 destination A
07:57<Someus>Oooo
07:57<zxbiohazardzx>2 destination B
07:57<Someus>YEs yes
07:57<zxbiohazardzx>3 Destination C
07:57<Someus>Ok
07:57<zxbiohazardzx>-- End of <>
07:57<Someus>Yes i user CTRL + Click
07:58<Someus>i used
07:58<zxbiohazardzx>does it say end of shared ?
07:58<Someus>Yes
07:58<zxbiohazardzx>for simply copying but not sharing orders use normal cick
07:58<Someus>oh
07:58<zxbiohazardzx>to stop sharing, click that end of shared orders and stop sharing
07:58<Someus>But will it copy orders as well?
07:59<zxbiohazardzx>if you simply copy then it will copy orders
07:59<Someus>I remember when i played this game a long ago :)
07:59<zxbiohazardzx>but if you click it then then you will see they do not share orders
07:59<zxbiohazardzx>they just copied it
07:59<Someus>I was amazed :)
07:59<Someus>Ok nice
08:00<Someus>I like old graphics tough
08:00-!-LordPixaII [~pixa@79-68-111-15.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has joined #openttd
08:00<Someus>They have more contrast
08:01-!-telanus [~Barney_Er@196-215-68-135.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #openttd
08:02<zxbiohazardzx>i prefer some of the new graphics :P
08:02<drac_boy>Someus well you more or less still could get that...just put the original grf files into the 'data' folder
08:02<Someus>yeah i did it already
08:03<Someus>Any suggestions for new player?
08:03<Someus>Tips & Tricks?
08:03<drac_boy>I dunno, I'm sorta the anti-massnetworks type so maybe you might want someone else
08:04<Someus>What are your tactics?
08:04<Someus>trains, cars, plains, ships?
08:04<zxbiohazardzx>trains
08:04<zxbiohazardzx>always
08:04<drac_boy>individual lines .. mixed cargos a lot of the times on trains .. etc
08:04<zxbiohazardzx>find coal and link it
08:04<zxbiohazardzx>try to max out a coal line
08:04<zxbiohazardzx>after that its your play as income is so big you dont have to worry :P
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08:05<@planetmaker>as long-distance as you ca afford
08:05<zxbiohazardzx>but low-money starts == haul coal over the map
08:05<Someus>So coal is money maker?
08:05<zxbiohazardzx>as bigga distance as you can without going bankrupt
08:05<@planetmaker>it's a viable strategy
08:05<zxbiohazardzx>yes, 50k in 1 haul isnt uncommon :P
08:05<Someus>What about oil?
08:05*drac_boy rarely starts with coal :)
08:05<zxbiohazardzx>tropical maps you go for water/oil
08:05<Someus>Actually i alwais start with passengers :):)
08:05<zxbiohazardzx>drac_boy only supercitys & passengers beat it
08:05<zxbiohazardzx>but only if you can link up 2 nicely sized towns
08:06<zxbiohazardzx>and if your not playing with reduced pax-payment :P
08:06<drac_boy>zxbiohazardzx actually I do run between small towns first on some maps... with two trains of 1-3 cars each
08:06<Someus>How to get better rating?
08:07<drac_boy>Someus don't let cargo sit for long time
08:07<zxbiohazardzx>more trains waitint on the station
08:07<zxbiohazardzx>simply have a train load all the time works for cargo's
08:07<zxbiohazardzx>for pax just make alot of connections
08:07<Someus>drac_boy what is better - full load or just avaible?
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08:08<drac_boy>someus..depends on train so I dunno :)
08:08<zxbiohazardzx>depends again
08:08<Someus>Yeah it depends
08:08<zxbiohazardzx>for cargo --> full load it
08:08<zxbiohazardzx>for pax --> just go
08:08<Someus>I can`t balance this thing very well
08:08<Someus>what is pax? passengers?
08:08<zxbiohazardzx>Someus for better tips, join a multiplayer game and ask help there
08:09<zxbiohazardzx>pax = passengers & mail imo
08:09<zxbiohazardzx>the passenger/city generated stuff :P
08:09<drac_boy>nope..I consider mail a freight cargo :p
08:09<Someus>Is it interesting to play multi?
08:09<@planetmaker>pax = passengers
08:09<zxbiohazardzx>cargo is everything from industries
08:09-!-Devroush [~dennis@178-119-153-135.access.telenet.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
08:09<@planetmaker>and not mail
08:09<zxbiohazardzx>Someus yeah its not bad to learn
08:09<Someus>Are you playing now?
08:09<zxbiohazardzx>planetmaker true, but i prefer to see mail as part of my passenger networks, easier to keep track of stuff
08:10<zxbiohazardzx>im not Someus, but i could join in one :P
08:10*drac_boy thinks zxbiohazardzx has never heard of mail trains then :)
08:10<zxbiohazardzx>lemmy see what ottd verison i have
08:10<@planetmaker>zxbiohazardzx: that's a different thing. But pax is a commonly used abbreviation for passengers
08:10<zxbiohazardzx>drac_boy ow i do have mail trains, and seperate terminals for them
08:10<drac_boy>especially Fast Mail or Royal Mail etc (name always varies in different areas)
08:10<@planetmaker>And it has not what-so-ever the meaning to also include mail
08:10<zxbiohazardzx>i just put them on same network
08:10<zxbiohazardzx>yeah true planet :)
08:10<zxbiohazardzx>blegh
08:10<zxbiohazardzx>http://paste2.org/p/1978964
08:10<drac_boy>anyway afk for a while
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08:11<Someus>Which is better AI for beginner?
08:11<zxbiohazardzx>Machiavelli are those new? and did Aokromes check them out yet or should i go fix them?
08:11<@planetmaker>Someus: that depends on the definition of 'good'
08:11<Someus>I experienced a very smart AI, whenever i built a way from city to city, AI immediately used this way :D
08:12<zxbiohazardzx>eehm last 2 lines should have been in the other IRC my bad
08:12<Someus>Like parasite
08:12<zxbiohazardzx>Someus: none :P
08:12<zxbiohazardzx>if you dont want AI to play against then soloplay is still good to see what you can/cant do etc
08:12<zxbiohazardzx>AI can be used to make the game more challenging
08:13<Someus>I want AI
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08:13<zxbiohazardzx>then just check the forums, most AI's have a topic explaining what they do etc
08:13<zxbiohazardzx>some only build busses, others do certain lines only, forums offer some extra details on that
08:13<Someus>I downloaded from openttd launcher
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08:13<zxbiohazardzx>yeah but most of those also have a topic on the forums with extra info
08:13<Someus>Also i downloaded all newGRF :)
08:13-!-pete1 [~pete@g227004087.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #openttd
08:14<Someus>Haven`t activated them yet
08:14<zxbiohazardzx>jeej for compatibility issues then
08:14<zxbiohazardzx>:P
08:14<Someus>I hope to see something intereting
08:14<zxbiohazardzx>in b4 errors of multiple conflicting sets
08:14<Someus>Shouldn`t i use them
08:14<Someus>?
08:15<@planetmaker>Someus: you should not use all newgrfs. They will conflict
08:15<@planetmaker>Choose some small selection which work well together
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08:15<@planetmaker>try them possibly one by one
08:15<Someus>Yeah sure
08:15<pete1>where are the openttd datafiles save by default in linux?
08:15<Someus>What are plans for openttd?
08:16<@planetmaker>readme, section 4, line 188, pete1
08:16-!-Devroush [~dennis@178-119-153-135.access.telenet.be] has joined #openttd
08:16<+glx>planetmaker: you know it by heart ?
08:16<frosch123>he, i would also have known section4, but you can already the line number?
08:17<Someus>:)
08:17<Someus>Because he is developer
08:17<zxbiohazardzx>i recon he used quicksearch for that glx
08:17<zxbiohazardzx>and i recon that this aint the first time someone asked
08:17<Someus>That`s nothing special :)
08:17<Someus>He is into it
08:18<zxbiohazardzx>thats what she said
08:19<Someus>she?
08:19<@planetmaker>frosch123: yes, I meanwhile know. I remember it from my browser's URL. It has lines encoded :-)
08:19<@planetmaker>http://vcs.openttd.org/svn/browser/tags/1.2.0-beta4/readme.txt#L188
08:19<@planetmaker>for those who don't find it alongside their own openttd
08:20<@planetmaker>zxbiohazardzx: no, I really know by heart
08:20<@planetmaker>I answer that question about every 3 days or so
08:21<@planetmaker>though I feel very friendly giving that URL now, given the abuse I got from pete1 in private
08:24<Rhamphoryncus>Okay, there's train fans, then there's this: http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_Ba0SmAJfu_Y/TNdisNkcvtI/AAAAAAAABQw/_M-AxtYx2xE/s1600/GN441liv5.jpg
08:25<Rhamphoryncus>http://yankeedogsflyingcircus.blogspot.ca/2010/11/got-spare-locomotive-lying-around.html
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08:28<zxbiohazardzx>Aokromes --> SELECT * FROM `gameobject_loot_template` WHERE `entry`=10961 returns anything on your db?
08:29<@planetmaker>wth do you do, zxbiohazardzx?
08:29<frosch123>wrong channel :)
08:29<zxbiohazardzx>meh wrong one planetmaker :P
08:29<zxbiohazardzx>i have like 10 channels open, missed the trinitycore channel and hit the ottd one :P
08:30<@planetmaker>don't do that with your girl friends. It has more sever consequences ;-)
08:30<Rhamphoryncus>Yeah, sever is about right
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08:30<zxbiohazardzx>planetmaker nah they know about eachother, its ok
08:37<Someus>Now i am shiping passengers
08:45<@planetmaker>all to an oil rig? ;-)
08:45<zxbiohazardzx>haha epic
08:45<zxbiohazardzx>just send pax trains to your HQ
08:45<zxbiohazardzx>i can send ALOT of ppl to my HQ in that way
08:46<zxbiohazardzx>HQ is 2x2 tiles, yet should house about 1 gazillion ppl in some maps :P
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08:49<SquireJames>Hello all
08:50<@planetmaker>HELO
08:50<SquireJames>I was wondering if someone might do me a small favour
08:50<Rhamphoryncus>Hmm. Another thing to explore on my hypothetical trainset is differential running cost to simulate track wear for different track types
08:50<SquireJames>I can't seem to download any version of OTTD off the site. It times out no matter whether I choose a Nightly, Stable or Testing
08:50<SquireJames>Does the same on my wifes laptop, so I am wondering if the site is down
08:51<zxbiohazardzx>helo? in caps? tsss
08:51<zxbiohazardzx>SquireJames ill try downloading 1 sec
08:51<@planetmaker>SquireJames: what URL does binaries.openttd.org resolve to for you?
08:51<@planetmaker>if you enter it in your browser
08:51<Rhamphoryncus>SquireJames: connects just fine for me
08:52<SquireJames>Latest nightly url is
08:52<SquireJames>http://binaries.openttd.org/nightlies/trunk/r24114/openttd-trunk-r24114-windows-win64.zip
08:52<NGC3982>i have been looking at the nick all this time, reading "SquirrelJames".
08:52<zxbiohazardzx>works for me (University of Twente mirror)
08:52*NGC3982 feels horrible.
08:52<@planetmaker>SquireJames: I mean the link I posted. Put that in your browser and hit enter
08:52<zxbiohazardzx>if you click it, what FTP does it point to
08:52<SquireJames>Hmm, i've tried it on both Firefox and IE, no go
08:53<@planetmaker>not the one you pasted
08:53<SquireJames>oh okay, one moment
08:53<frosch123>SquireJames: that url resolves to different servers depending on your location, so we need to know *which* mirror you are directed to
08:53-!-mal2_ [~mal2@port-92-206-232-235.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #openttd
08:54<SquireJames>Right, I copy and pasted binaries.openttd.org into my browser
08:54<@planetmaker>yes
08:54<SquireJames>timed out still, but resolved to this
08:54<SquireJames>http://gb.binaries.openttd.org/binaries/index.html
08:54<@planetmaker>ok. that's the info we need. peter's server. And he's not online. Thanks
08:54<Someus>I like this game :)
08:54<SquireJames>Is there a way to direct to a different server?
08:54<Rhamphoryncus>http://us.binaries.openttd.org/nightlies/trunk/r24114/openttd-trunk-r24114-windows-win64.zip
08:55<frosch123>SquireJames: now just replace that "uk" with someting else
08:55<frosch123>e.g. nl
08:55<SquireJames>ah okay
08:55<Rhamphoryncus>which doesn't work lol
08:55<zxbiohazardzx>nl works fine
08:55<@planetmaker>hm, us neither?!
08:55<Rhamphoryncus>Just the nightly isn't there
08:55<@planetmaker>yes. still. It should
08:56<Rhamphoryncus>So it's a totally different problem XD
08:56<SquireJames>http://us.binaries.openttd.org/binaries/nightlies/trunk/r24114/index.html
08:56<SquireJames>that one worked for me
08:56<zxbiohazardzx>dutch one works for me
08:57<Rhamphoryncus>yeah, my fault, URL is wrong
08:57<Rhamphoryncus>http://binaries.openttd.org/nightlies/trunk/r24114/ -> http://us.binaries.openttd.org/binaries/nightlies/trunk/r24114/index.html
08:57<SquireJames>phew, well at least I know its not my ISP or my antivirus blocking stuff arbitrarily
08:57<Rhamphoryncus>both us. and /binaries added
08:58-!-drac_boy [~drac_boy@modemcable085.125-161-184.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #openttd
08:58<drac_boy>hi
08:59<SquireJames>Hello there
09:00<drac_boy>how're you squire? :)
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09:03<SquireJames>No bad :) finally got over my flu bug
09:03<SquireJames>just in time for work.. *sigh*
09:03<drac_boy>ic, thats good
09:05<drac_boy>work? meh no fun is it?
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09:06<SquireJames>Particular my job. Feels like I accomplish nothing but there we go
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09:09<Rhamphoryncus>Hrm. I wonder if flat vs hilly should only apply to older engines. Modern ones sound like they're converging on 6 axle with TE limited only by the tracks
09:09-!-Pikka_ is now known as Pikka
09:10<drac_boy>metro trainset with 1000+ passenger capacity and 110km/h ..hmm
09:10<zxbiohazardzx>on the chrill patchpack my landscape generation is screwed
09:10<zxbiohazardzx>has 2 extremes and more smoothness options
09:10<drac_boy>Rhamphoryncus depends on which 'grades' you are using
09:10<zxbiohazardzx>but that screwed up the whole generator, but then again its the patchpack version i dunno
09:10<zxbiohazardzx>stable ottd at least generated the map i expected it to :P
09:10<Rhamphoryncus>drac_boy: hmm?
09:11<drac_boy>Rhamphoryncus there was one direct line (now its sitting weedy) that was rather steep that even your modern diesel-ac locomotive only could take barely 900 tonnes up. and thats 3000+hp you have on six axles ^_^
09:11<drac_boy>but if you're only going with 1% setting I guess maybe yeah it wouldn't matter
09:12<Rhamphoryncus>drac_boy: HP is irrelevant in that situation. It's all about TE, which is limited by the track design and the number of axles
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09:13<drac_boy>well yeah I don't know what the listed tractive is for many of these recent emd/ge locomotives .. just know that they're usually with ac drive tho
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09:16<Rhamphoryncus>A few of the wikipedia pages list it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EMD_SD90MAC
09:18<SquireJames>So this hypothetical train set, I assume its a US-themed set?
09:18<Rhamphoryncus>No theme
09:18<Rhamphoryncus>It's meant to explore gameplay, not realism
09:21<SquireJames>Ah I see
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09:25<Rhamphoryncus>drac_boy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axleload
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09:36<drac_boy>how do you make it that a train can't even leave the depot if it does not have a caboose on it btw? just wondering about something else related to that now
09:37<Rhamphoryncus>I've no idea how that works
09:38<zxbiohazardzx>you can make the engine check for a vehicle ID in its list?
09:38<drac_boy>hmm good guess...
09:39*drac_boy checks the newgrf for something to do with id limit
09:40<Rhamphoryncus>They can change appearance and such when you reorganize a train. Presumably that's what checks for the caboose
09:40<Rhamphoryncus>Hrm. Maybe without a caboose the engine is marked as not supporting any track types?
09:41<@planetmaker>drac_boy: you set a specific bitmask_vehicle_info for the caboose. You then check for the bitmask to have the caboose's bit set and disallow leaving depot when not set
09:41<@planetmaker>(e.g. by setting max speed to 0 in that case)
09:42<@planetmaker>probably there are other solutions, too
09:42<@planetmaker>Rhamphoryncus: you cannot change the tracktype to not supported probably. Otherwise you couldn't build the engine in the first place
09:43<Rhamphoryncus>planetmaker: *nod*
09:43<Rhamphoryncus>But the principle is the same: check when the caboose is added and make the engine unusable somehow
09:43<@planetmaker>Thus with bitmask_vehicle_info set you can query the variable bitmask_consist_info in the speed callback
09:44<@planetmaker>(which is called upon consist change)
09:44<drac_boy>hmm looks like it'll be a bit too much for me, thanks for the name tho planetmaker
09:45<@planetmaker>I quoted NML names. In NFO they might be called slightly different
09:45<+michi_cc>No need for hacks like setting the speed to zero, just use callback 31 (Vehicle Start/stop check).
09:46<@planetmaker>you also would want to make use of vehicle_is_in_depot in that CB
09:46<@planetmaker>ah, right, much better, michi_cc :-)
09:47<@planetmaker>start_stop in NML
09:48<drac_boy>hmm thanks michi_cc, might think about it after all then
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09:52<Poorunfortunatesouls>hey guys, can I ask a question please?
09:52<@Alberth>try it
09:53<drac_boy>hi Alberth :)
09:53<Poorunfortunatesouls>i've got some grfs and all that - but I want to load a game without them installed as I want the normal ingame things
09:53<@Alberth>not possible
09:53<Poorunfortunatesouls>not at all?
09:53<@Alberth>a game contains the grfs that it needs, so if you load a game, you also load the grfs
09:54<@Alberth>you have to remove all grfs from the main menu, and then start a new game
09:54<Poorunfortunatesouls>so I can't select which grfs I want in one game compared to another?
09:54<@Alberth>sure you can, but only before you start a new game, you can decide what grfs you want
09:55<@Alberth>once you started, the set of grfs is fixed for that game
09:55<Poorunfortunatesouls>yeah that's what i'm asking - how do I do that?
09:55<@Alberth>go to the main menu
09:55<Poorunfortunatesouls>I can't seem to select and deselect which ones I want
09:55<@Alberth>then newgrf settings
09:55<@Alberth>main menu = the screen that openttd starts with
09:56<@Alberth>ie not from within a game
09:56<Poorunfortunatesouls>mmhmm
09:57<zxbiohazardzx>there is a hacky way but its on your own risk, so go with alberths way
09:58<@Alberth>zxbiohazardzx: that's only for newgrf developers, not for players
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10:00<Poorunfortunatesouls>what do I do next Alberth?
10:01<@Alberth>what do you want to do?
10:01<Poorunfortunatesouls>I want to take out the suspended monorail, and japanese trains and ukfinescale which it keeps saying is broken
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10:02<@Alberth>make a (mental) note that this combination is not working, and abort the game
10:02<zxbiohazardzx>Alberth meh as a player i have it on
10:02<zxbiohazardzx>if my game breaks then i know i fucked up, my risk
10:02<@Alberth>make a better newgrf setup, and start a new game
10:02<zxbiohazardzx>:P
10:03<@Alberth>zxbiohazardzx: living at the edge eh? :)
10:03<drac_boy>why japset+ukrails? :P
10:03<zxbiohazardzx>mental note, paper note, notepad note, :P
10:03<Poorunfortunatesouls>so remove the grfs I don't want to use from the menu
10:03<Poorunfortunatesouls>close the game
10:03<zxbiohazardzx>partially Alberth
10:03<Poorunfortunatesouls>and reload?
10:03<@Alberth>reload won't work
10:03<zxbiohazardzx>some additions are considered safe anyway if i read planets post correctly
10:03<@Alberth>you cannot change newgrfs in a running game
10:03<zxbiohazardzx>and again if i fucked it up, then I fucked it up :P
10:04<zxbiohazardzx>XD
10:04<Poorunfortunatesouls>it's still not working :(
10:04<@Alberth>if you want to continue to play this game, you're stuck with the current grfs
10:04<Poorunfortunatesouls>no
10:04<Poorunfortunatesouls>it's a new game
10:04<Poorunfortunatesouls>i've made a scenario
10:05<Poorunfortunatesouls>and I want to play that scenario, but without the suspended monorail, japanese trains, etc etc
10:05<@Alberth>a scenario = a game
10:05<Poorunfortunatesouls>I haven't played it yet
10:05<Poorunfortunatesouls>it's brand new
10:05<@Alberth>unfortunately :(
10:05<Poorunfortunatesouls>but i haven't played it yet?
10:06<drac_boy>alberth what if he deleted the company .. went back to scenario editor, change grf and correct any landscape bugs ... and start a new game?
10:06<zxbiohazardzx>meh strip it :P
10:06<@Alberth>you saved the file, that's enough to get stuck with the choices made by the scenario author (ie you)
10:06<@Alberth>drac_boy: in general won't work
10:07<Poorunfortunatesouls>are you shitting me? Lol. So let me get this straight...
10:07<@Alberth>Poorunfortunatesouls: you can reload in the scenario editor, and save it as height-map
10:07<@Alberth>then start from that height map
10:07<zxbiohazardzx>what is he trying to remove anyway?
10:07<Poorunfortunatesouls>I need to remove the grfs, then create a scenario, and it should work then?
10:08<Poorunfortunatesouls>zxbiohazardzx - Suspended monorail, japanese train sets, UK Finescale
10:08<@Alberth>then you have a scenario without grfs, and you won't have them for the entire game
10:08<Poorunfortunatesouls>no, because I'll only remove the ones I don't want...
10:08<@Alberth>unfortunately, scenarios are very broken at the moment
10:08<zxbiohazardzx>only the trainset will cause problems if you have any trains
10:08<zxbiohazardzx>if you dont have trains then all 3 can be removed safely
10:09<zxbiohazardzx>monorail only adds a railtype, removing it is "safe"
10:09<@Alberth>lol
10:09<zxbiohazardzx>uk finescale similar story
10:09<Poorunfortunatesouls>my dissertation wasn't this flipping confusing.
10:09<zxbiohazardzx>if you have 0 trains then you can actually kill them out
10:09<zxbiohazardzx>thats how i recovered a savegame of my own with some bad newgrfs
10:09<Poorunfortunatesouls>but I base my transport systems around trains
10:09<@Alberth>Poorunfortunatesouls: it's not confusing, the scenario author controls which newgrfs you must use
10:09<zxbiohazardzx>simply remove all trains then you can "safely" remove grfs related to them
10:10<zxbiohazardzx>@Poorunfortunatesouls you cannot remove a GRF that is still in use;)
10:10<zxbiohazardzx>just ask yourself: if i remove the train-graphics, what will the game show on my train...?
10:10<teggi>any newgrf that by default sets cargocreation to max on all industries?
10:10<drac_boy>whats cargocreation?
10:10<teggi>bad english. :D
10:11*Alberth ponders removing the option entirely, as users continue spreading their use
10:11<Poorunfortunatesouls>When I say 'remove' I mean 'remove' in the newgrf settings panel
10:11<zxbiohazardzx>yes same here
10:11<teggi>drac_boy: meant production of cargo on e.g forests etc
10:11<zxbiohazardzx>Alberth lolwut?
10:11<@Alberth>zxbiohazardzx: you heard me
10:11<drac_boy>teggi there is I think a particular grf (or was it just ottd advanced option in the cfg?) that lets you set outputs to whatever you want to between 32 to 2000+ tonnes
10:11<zxbiohazardzx>im not sure i got it though :)
10:11<drac_boy>its a silly idea I think but then whatever :)
10:12<teggi>to each his own :p
10:12<@Alberth>zxbiohazardzx: THE OPTION IS FOR NEWGRF DEVELOPERS ONLY
10:12<drac_boy>I mean a lumber mill clearly can't produce 2000+ tonnes if theres almost no trees around :p
10:12<zxbiohazardzx>Alberth whats life without a little risk
10:12<zxbiohazardzx>if your willing to accept the concequences then the option is for everyone
10:12<@Alberth>zxbiohazardzx: that you life at the edge, fine
10:12<zxbiohazardzx>but dont come crying along
10:12<teggi>drac_boy i'd only like to change iron ore mines, coal mines etc, not the factories ++
10:13<zxbiohazardzx>there are more options in a computer that have that behaviour
10:13<@Alberth>but don't continue spreading it to other users
10:13<zxbiohazardzx>delete a huge file
10:13<zxbiohazardzx>omg qq i accidentally did this
10:13<drac_boy>teggi.. factories are not output industries .. they're secondary industries :)
10:13<teggi>yeah, it just seemed you meant the secondaries aswell
10:13<zxbiohazardzx>there is stilla "are you absolutely sure, all warrenty is lost etc" huge warning
10:13<zxbiohazardzx>i dont see the problem with letting ppl know it exists
10:13<zxbiohazardzx>the fact that it exists is good, and if ppl want to risk it to see if they can benefit from it in any way then let them
10:14<@Alberth>they don't read it, or don't understand it, and come crying to us
10:14<zxbiohazardzx>save the file, try the change, if it crashes, load the old
10:14<@Alberth>crash is the good way of dying
10:14<zxbiohazardzx>@Alberth yeah the QQ folks will always stay, regardless of what you do
10:14<@Alberth>normally it corrupts the file, and act 'weird' later
10:14<zxbiohazardzx>i dont even understand why the NewGRF data isnt saved along the savegame in that case
10:15<zxbiohazardzx>then you dont have "version" issues either
10:15<Poorunfortunatesouls>I honestly don't understand a word being said. Can someone tell me, step-by-step, how to create a scenario, that I can play, without the ones I don't want?
10:15<@Alberth>hence my consideration of remving it entirely. End of discussion
10:15<@Alberth>game over
10:15<drac_boy>zxbiohazardzx problem is... newgrf can be 10+MB while a save would be only a few hundred kbs at the worst
10:15<zxbiohazardzx>yes drac_boy
10:15<drac_boy>so its a pointless idea..especially ever more if autosave is on
10:15<Rhamphoryncus>Poorunfortunatesouls: Set the newgrf options you want from the start menu, start game
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10:15<zxbiohazardzx>if the NewGRF cannot be "hot-swapped" then yes they should be integrated in the savegame
10:16<drac_boy>Rhamphoryncus I think thats already been mentioned
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10:16<@planetmaker>16:08 Poorunfortunatesouls: zxbiohazardzx - Suspended monorail, japanese train sets, UK Finescale <-- I know that removing those three WILL 100% leave you with cruft which will not work as it should
10:16<drac_boy>zxbiohazardzx I do NOT want 20+mb saves...especially when theres more than ten of them
10:16<drac_boy>ok?
10:16<zxbiohazardzx>aka anything that makes the game unplayable after removal (and again, not all GRFs make it unplayable)
10:16<Rhamphoryncus>drac_boy: too many things have been mentioned
10:16<@planetmaker>any NewGRF removal will break it.
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10:16<zxbiohazardzx>drac_boy , you prefer having 20 versions of eg 2CC set in your grflist?
10:16<drac_boy>Rhamphoryncus heh :)
10:16<@planetmaker>or can break it
10:17<@planetmaker>zxbiohazardzx: that's what one does have, yes. Nothing bad with that
10:17<drac_boy>zxbiohazardzx why are you trying to play so many different games at once than finish one all the way?
10:17<@planetmaker>But you only get shown the newest one usually
10:17<zxbiohazardzx>nah my list of grfs hates me bigtime :P
10:17<@planetmaker>when selecting newgrfs for a new game
10:17<@Alberth>Poorunfortunatesouls: in short, start again. You can get the heightmap from your old scenario if you like
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10:18<@planetmaker>but you cannot update the newgrfs on an existing scenario without screwing up majorly
10:18*drac_boy only has like about 15-20 grfs for all four climates anyhow. and two cfg files
10:18<zxbiohazardzx>hmmz i tried
10:18<zxbiohazardzx>it fails on the trainsets indeed
10:18<zxbiohazardzx>but some town & trees updated just fine
10:18<@planetmaker>that's what I'm saying
10:18<zxbiohazardzx>same for road/rails
10:18<zxbiohazardzx>so its tricky
10:18<@planetmaker>town update fails, too
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10:18<zxbiohazardzx>hmmz then i got lucky :P
10:18<@Alberth>zxbiohazardzx: we are not kidding by discouraging its use!
10:19<zxbiohazardzx>dont get me wrong im not saying you shouldnt discourage its use
10:19<drac_boy>zxbiohazardzx another thing is...how do YOU think orudge would feel when the savegame uploads on forum suddenly goes from 4mb/day average to 30+mb/day average?
10:19<drac_boy>thats a lot of bandwidth useage for "duplications"
10:19<zxbiohazardzx>but do allow me to risk shit myself, im nt a wintendo user who needs a hand while peeing like a 5 year old
10:19<zxbiohazardzx>if you dont want to read a huge red warning text before changing anything
10:19<@Alberth>drac_boy: and a good way to make sure any newgrf will never disappear :)
10:19<@planetmaker>newgrfs need not be part of savegames. But they're uniquely identified in the savegames
10:20<zxbiohazardzx>then your not eligible for anything
10:20<Rhamphoryncus>I have.. 48 GRFs I typically use
10:20<drac_boy>planetmaker yeah that I could agree with for a change :)
10:20<@planetmaker>and bananas ensures that you can always retrieve the correct one. If you use those only which are thereon
10:20<zxbiohazardzx>fair enough plantemaker, but not all the GRFs are on banana's
10:20<@planetmaker>yeah. Nor will ever be all there.
10:20<zxbiohazardzx>specially Romazoon had a habit of picking the beta/nightly/whatever version of a GRF that is not and will never be on banana's
10:20*drac_boy points zxbiohazardzx to download opencoopgrf then if you want only one secondary source
10:20<@planetmaker>but that's your risk
10:20<zxbiohazardzx>try getting those files XD
10:20<zxbiohazardzx>same risk, same game
10:21<zxbiohazardzx>if i try to update them to banana versions
10:21<drac_boy>planetmaker yeah
10:21<zxbiohazardzx>then thats my risk, the big red warning is enough for most ppl
10:21<@planetmaker>zxbiohazardzx: don't use non-bananas in the first place, if you fear to loose the newgrfs
10:21<zxbiohazardzx>im not affraid :P
10:21<zxbiohazardzx>as i said, i love that "i know the risk, let me play and see if it crashes" option
10:21<zxbiohazardzx>its like a minigame inside the game
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10:22*planetmaker doesn't like that
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10:22*zxbiohazardzx wonders why
10:22<V453000>well if you migrate all your openttd data including savegames, newgrfs and other stuff every time you change pc, you are ok with any newgrfs
10:22<zxbiohazardzx>haha
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10:22<@planetmaker>I get the bugs which you produce by forcefully screwing it, zxbiohazardzx
10:22<zxbiohazardzx>thats my issue mainly V453000
10:23<zxbiohazardzx>nope you dont planetmaker
10:23<@planetmaker>and then spend my time figuring out only to see that you wanted it to crash
10:23<V453000>but of course having newgrf on bananas is absoutely amazing
10:23<zxbiohazardzx>any bugs in the marked games are not reported :P
10:23<@planetmaker>that's what she says
10:23<zxbiohazardzx>i cant recall i reported anything anyway but still
10:23<zxbiohazardzx>XD
10:23<zxbiohazardzx>im using chrill patchpack on some of those saves as well
10:24<zxbiohazardzx><< must.have.signals_in_tunnels&on_bridges >> :P
10:24<zxbiohazardzx>high traffic networks + superlong bridges/tunnels == musthave patch :p
10:24<zxbiohazardzx>but yeah
10:24<zxbiohazardzx>i do see your pov planetmaker
10:25<zxbiohazardzx>but i like to add some stuff i "forgot" to add
10:25<Rubidium>signals on tunnels and bridges is a bad concept
10:25<zxbiohazardzx>or remove 1-2 station GRFs that flooded the list (is there still a limit?)
10:25<drac_boy>planetmaker I have to agree, pointless bugs are a annoying WASTE OF TIME
10:25<zxbiohazardzx>Rubidium the patch is hacky and bad, the general idea is good
10:25<drac_boy>thats why I always turn off auto-bugreport in any oses I use
10:26<Rubidium>zxbiohazardzx: no, it's not. The idea should be: build infrastructure on bridges/in tunnels in the same way you do at ground level
10:26<zxbiohazardzx>Rubidium that would also allow stations & waypoints for example?
10:26<zxbiohazardzx>and thus introduce underground stations & layers, hell even bends and curves
10:26<Rubidium>yes, and different kinds of signals at different locations on the bridge
10:27<zxbiohazardzx>but since that wont happen any day soon
10:27<Rubidium>and possibly even crossovers in tunnels
10:27<@planetmaker>zxbiohazardzx: thus we should make it impossible for all future?
10:27<zxbiohazardzx>not at all
10:27<zxbiohazardzx>but untill you release all that fancy shit
10:27<zxbiohazardzx>im playing with something that works for now :P
10:27<zxbiohazardzx>hacky & bad yes, but functional for now :)
10:27<@planetmaker>adding hacks makes good solutions sometimes impossible
10:27<zxbiohazardzx>i know about that
10:27<zxbiohazardzx><-- trinitycore Wow
10:28<zxbiohazardzx>i know that in trunk you cannot accept it
10:28<Rubidium>not "hasn't blown up in my face yet"?
10:28<zxbiohazardzx>Rubidium what?
10:28<Rubidium>instead of the "works for now"
10:29<drac_boy>hmm could I be missing any other english/translated-to terms here? subway, metro, tube, underground railway
10:29<Rhamphoryncus>hey, the start of a 32bpp newgrf is on bananas XD
10:29<zxbiohazardzx>haha
10:29<drac_boy>its just for as general term btw
10:29<zxbiohazardzx>hasnt blown up yet, nor smoked enough for me to worry too much about it
10:29<zxbiohazardzx>what about IS sharing?
10:29<zxbiohazardzx>i know the flaw with income sharing
10:29<zxbiohazardzx>but imo thats seperate patch/issue
10:30<zxbiohazardzx>infra sharing makes it possible to share the infra, not income :P
10:30<Rubidium>if you want station sharing, then you must fix the income sharing issue first
10:30<zxbiohazardzx>why that?
10:30<@planetmaker>to avoid bug reports
10:31<@planetmaker>as people *will* complain that they don't get income for their vehicles while they should
10:31<zxbiohazardzx>ofc
10:31<Eddi|zuHause>zxbiohazardzx: it's a separate patch, but it's a prerequisite
10:31<@planetmaker>so first fix the money distribution if you transfer fright via oil rigs
10:31<@planetmaker>*freight
10:31<@planetmaker>maybe also fright, though
10:31<zxbiohazardzx>so first you have to adress income sharing / money transfer before you can share other stuff
10:32<Eddi|zuHause>exactly
10:32<zxbiohazardzx>lame but fair enough :P
10:32<Eddi|zuHause>if you fix transfer payment in the process, that's fine too
10:32<zxbiohazardzx><-- lacks coding skills :(
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10:35<drac_boy>oh well I think I'll just go with a few fixed consists, too much trouble figuring out the callbacks
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10:43<drac_boy>taking a break now..been at this for too long now -_-
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10:49<andythenorth>Alberth: how would you remove the option to change newgrf?
10:50<andythenorth>it's already 'removed' :P
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10:50<@Alberth>throw out all code related to the option
10:51<andythenorth>hmm
10:51<andythenorth>tempting
10:51<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: and how is a developer supposed to debug changes?
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10:51<andythenorth>is the problem :P
10:51<@Alberth>restart
10:51<andythenorth>ha
10:52<andythenorth>how about compile own version with a compiler flag set?
10:52<andythenorth>restart is unacceptable :P
10:52<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: you realize that one of the biggest problems in debugging is getting to a state where you can reproduce the effect?
10:53<@Alberth>you familiar with the save game concept, I hope? :p
10:53<@Alberth>+are
10:53<@Alberth>but yeah, it sucks in a very major way for newgrf developers
10:55<andythenorth>but being a newgrf developer sucks anyway :P
10:55<andythenorth>no gratitude
10:55<andythenorth>no fanbase
10:55<andythenorth>no $2 download fees
10:55<andythenorth>and no newgrf smoke
10:56<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: yes, but a savegame won't help me if i can't alter the GRF in that savegame, to reload the changes i made
10:56<@planetmaker>indeed as newgrf developer I rely on being able to update or change newgrfs in existing games
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10:57<andythenorth>ach I solved this last week
10:57<andythenorth>deprecate newgrf
10:57<andythenorth>it also demonstrably improves game performance
10:57<andythenorth>and removes the main source of support / feature requests
10:58<zxbiohazardzx>lol @ andythenorth
10:59<zxbiohazardzx>so much hate on an option that is already well hidden and pops huge warning
10:59<@Alberth>zxbiohazardzx: the warning means nothing, we had it before and yet we had to take additional action
11:00<andythenorth>all we get now is pointless requests to put a sticky at the top of the forums
11:00<andythenorth>explaining how to circumvent the check
11:00<zxbiohazardzx>hehe
11:00*andythenorth has an idea
11:00<zxbiohazardzx>apparently ppl like to walk on the edge like i do?
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11:01<andythenorth>the savegame already has a flag for 'newgrfs were screwed with'?
11:01<@Alberth>zxbiohazardzx: I don't know, I never need it
11:01<zxbiohazardzx>in general we lack a way of hot-swapping content in/out game. only allow removal of train grfs if 0 trains are ingame
11:01<zxbiohazardzx>if you have 0 trains then afaik swapping trainsets etc is safe?
11:01<zxbiohazardzx>stuff like that
11:01<andythenorth>zxbiohazardzx: no
11:01<@Alberth>0 trains is not enough
11:01<andythenorth>nothing is safe
11:01<zxbiohazardzx>if unused then change=allowed?
11:01<andythenorth>no
11:01<andythenorth>nothing is safe
11:01<zxbiohazardzx>why is it not safe?
11:01<andythenorth>because grfs can change their behaviour based on presence / absence / version of another grf
11:01<@Alberth>zxbiohazardzx: stuff is added in the game structures, eg the list of engines you can buy
11:02<zxbiohazardzx>yes but if you dont have anything like that open
11:02<andythenorth>grf A can disable if grf B is found
11:02<@Alberth>zxbiohazardzx: the structure exists no matter whether you have the window open
11:02<andythenorth>ach
11:02<andythenorth>I'm not going to argue this one
11:02<zxbiohazardzx>and why is that structure so hardcoded/solid
11:02<andythenorth>here's what we should do:
11:02<zxbiohazardzx>and can it not be more variable/changeable
11:02<andythenorth>(1) expose a 'newgrfs were changed' flag to newgrf
11:03<andythenorth>(2) have all newgrfs disable themselves if changed
11:03<@Alberth>because all graphics etc come from newgrf, upto the base set
11:03<andythenorth>end of problem
11:03<andythenorth>we already have make targets for newgrfs
11:03<zxbiohazardzx>the structure will always consists of a GUI element that fills with "trains" from "whatever source of trains
11:03<@Alberth>andythenorth: euhm, that would defeat the option, wouldn't it?
11:03<andythenorth>my solution is the best so far
11:04<andythenorth>Alberth: makefile would have a 'make dev' target
11:04<zxbiohazardzx>structure there can be variable, load/unload of the variable list is safe as long as the variable link isnt used?
11:04<zxbiohazardzx>haha
11:04<andythenorth>zxbiohazardzx: no
11:04<zxbiohazardzx>ofc not as im just thinking out loud :P
11:04<andythenorth>it's really simple, I tried what you're trying lots of times :P
11:04<zxbiohazardzx>probably
11:04<andythenorth>any grf can break because another grf was changed
11:04<andythenorth>that's all you need to know
11:05<zxbiohazardzx>your saying that its impossible to change the game after you initially started it?
11:05<andythenorth>yes
11:05-!-Sacro is now known as Sacro_
11:05<andythenorth>nfo spec insists on it
11:05<zxbiohazardzx>bad design?
11:05<andythenorth>and the spec is golden and may never be changed
11:05<andythenorth>yes bad design
11:05<andythenorth>but the spec may never be changed
11:05<zxbiohazardzx>and why can it not be changed?
11:05-!-Sacro_ is now known as Sacro
11:05<andythenorth>because that is how it is
11:05<andythenorth>because the spec says 'the spec won't be changed' :P
11:06<andythenorth>it's kind of tautological :P
11:06<zxbiohazardzx>lame bullshit is lame
11:06<zxbiohazardzx>its code, so it can be changed
11:06<zxbiohazardzx>its not desirable because of a ton of reasons
11:06<zxbiohazardzx>but it can be done :P
11:06<Rhamphoryncus>The only safe way to change would be saving locations of towns/industries/stations, creating a new game, and rebuilding them in the new places
11:06<andythenorth>not true
11:06<andythenorth>not safe
11:06<andythenorth>this really isn't going to happen
11:07<andythenorth>ask Rubidium :P
11:07<@planetmaker>that's actually the suggested way to work for scenarios...
11:07<andythenorth>the 'correct' answer is to bin newgrf, but nobody dares do it
11:07<zxbiohazardzx>and yes i seriously think that the inability to add newgrfs to an existing game is lacked hardcore
11:07<Rhamphoryncus>Not reliable you mean. There's no guarantee they'll let you put them back where they were :)
11:07<zxbiohazardzx>even when creating a scenario
11:07<zxbiohazardzx>you cannot change newgrfs at ANY point unless you generate landscape
11:07<Rhamphoryncus>planetmaker: I'm thinking specifically about scenarios, yes
11:07<@planetmaker>It's not 100% reliable. But you change NewGRFs, so you don't want 100% the same
11:07<zxbiohazardzx>and yes that is EXTREMELY lame
11:07<andythenorth>Alberth: my suggestion about having newgrfs disable is deadly serious
11:08<andythenorth>if some of the most popular newgrfs disable when others are changed, people will stop doing it
11:08<zxbiohazardzx>andy disabling newgrfs is just as bad then?
11:08<andythenorth>yes
11:08<@Alberth>andythenorth: oh, you mean without the option
11:08<zxbiohazardzx>if i can disable it, then why can i not remove it?
11:08<Rhamphoryncus>planetmaker: the only issue coming to mind (for scenario work) is providing the same random bits to the industry placement, so it produces the same variation
11:09<zxbiohazardzx>adding & removing newgrfs is something that imo should be possible during scenario building and gameplay
11:09<zxbiohazardzx>and yes i do understand that that will never happen
11:09<@Alberth>andythenorth: I had this idea: http://devs.openttd.org/~alberth/warning.png
11:09<zxbiohazardzx>but dreaming is good
11:09<@planetmaker>Rhamphoryncus: that won't work. But you can save the industry locations as well as road and house locations
11:09<zxbiohazardzx>sounds nice
11:09<@planetmaker>and try to re-generate as close-as-possible houses and industries
11:09<Rhamphoryncus>planetmaker: why won't it work?
11:09<zxbiohazardzx>if you modify the files then add that red stuff
11:09<@planetmaker>going by their respective newgrf properties
11:09<zxbiohazardzx>maybe make an option to hide it
11:10<zxbiohazardzx>ugly red bad is ugly :P
11:10<andythenorth>Alberth: that's just a variant on 'warning'
11:10<@planetmaker>Rhamphoryncus: the generation code might change between revisions
11:10<andythenorth>my suggestion is brute force
11:10<zxbiohazardzx>or make it appear on load and exit
11:10<@Alberth>andythenorth: it's permanentin the screen
11:10<@planetmaker>getting the original industry props is more reliable
11:10<zxbiohazardzx>Alberth how about making it show even bigger and on loading/closing of game
11:10<andythenorth>if FIRS / FISH / CHIPS / UKRS2 / HEQS / OpenGFX+ / CETS / AV8 etc disable when grfs are changed
11:11<@planetmaker>Rhamphoryncus: and it also would allow to switch from e.g. ECS to FIRS by matching closest 'friends'
11:11<andythenorth>people will stop changing grfs
11:11<@Alberth>andythenorth: but it would trigger on many scenarios, causing false reports
11:11<andythenorth>?
11:11<Rhamphoryncus>planetmaker: This is scenario editing. Expose the random bits to the user, keep a list of which were used while making the scenario
11:11<andythenorth>why is changing grfs on a scenario safe?
11:11<zxbiohazardzx>anydy lol
11:11<zxbiohazardzx>andythenorth disabling them makes stuff even worse
11:11<@planetmaker>Rhamphoryncus: yes. I'm talking about changing NewGRFs in scenarios
11:11<zxbiohazardzx>disabling GRFS based on other actions is bad and you know it
11:11<zxbiohazardzx>i prefer alberths uber red bar
11:12<zxbiohazardzx>and maybe extra confirmation before closing it :P
11:12<andythenorth>the spec encourages me to do it
11:12<zxbiohazardzx>fuck the spec your talking about
11:12<Rubidium>changing NewGRFs is like walking on railway tracks. If you know what you're doing, and you're doing it right, then the chance of something going wrong is significantly lower than when you have no clue what you're doing. That's mostly the reason why it's forbidden for the mere 'mortals' to walk on railway tracks
11:12<zxbiohazardzx>the spec is evil rom now on :P
11:12<andythenorth>please can the 'newgrfs were changed' flag be exposed to newgrf
11:12<zxbiohazardzx>Rubidium true to above, but the question is why is it a railway track, and not pavement
11:13<zxbiohazardzx>aka why do newgrfs root so deep
11:13<@planetmaker>andythenorth: no. It will only make it worse
11:13<andythenorth>how so?
11:13<andythenorth>it will socially prevent the issue
11:13<zxbiohazardzx>^^ as i said planetmaker
11:13<Rubidium>because they were never developed to be changed while running the game
11:13<zxbiohazardzx>andythenorth no, grf designers may want to change it, but your changes will screw up the game?
11:13<andythenorth>make it an action 7 / 9 environment var
11:13<andythenorth>zxbiohazardzx: I don't care
11:13<andythenorth>I really don't
11:14<Rhamphoryncus>andythenorth: you're proposing to cripple FIRS if I change a newgrf?
11:14<andythenorth>yes
11:14<zxbiohazardzx>andythenorth Alberths suggestion was way neater
11:14<andythenorth>absolutely
11:14<zxbiohazardzx>he was
11:14<@planetmaker>andythenorth: then it should be forbidden right in OpenTTD.
11:14<andythenorth>then we can't develop grfs
11:14<andythenorth>end of game
11:14<Rubidium>and handling *all* the states where stuff can go wrong when changing a NewGRF will be an ever going battle
11:14<Rhamphoryncus>asshole :P
11:14<zxbiohazardzx>he was proposing to cripple whatever he created solely if smeone edits (maybe even their own) GRF
11:14<zxbiohazardzx>and imo you cant do that :P
11:14<@planetmaker>andythenorth: so... and if you disable the NewGRF when things change, it becomes easier to dev newgrfs?
11:14<zxbiohazardzx>you can cripple FISH if you edit FISH but the rest i think is different story
11:15<Eddi|zuHause>people have been known to cripple their grfs just for loading them in openttd
11:15*andythenorth really doesn't see the problem
11:15<zxbiohazardzx>Eddi yes and i disapprove that as much as i do with andy's suggestion
11:15<andythenorth>there would be a compile-time flag on the grf to enable / disable the chechk
11:15<zxbiohazardzx>its pointless and lame and selfish only
11:15<V453000>what is the problem with how it works now? :o
11:15<andythenorth>zxbiohazardzx: fuck that
11:16<andythenorth>it's lame and selfish to have to keep handling bad newgrf bug reports from people who have changed their grfs
11:16<andythenorth>it's a waste of time
11:16<zxbiohazardzx>andythenorth yes and no
11:16<zxbiohazardzx>yes you shouldnt handle them
11:16<@planetmaker>no-one cares about if authors cripple their newgrfs. It's by design and we should not worry about that
11:16<zxbiohazardzx>no i think crippling your file is horrible
11:16<andythenorth>ach
11:16*andythenorth is going to do other stuff
11:16<zxbiohazardzx>planet as i said
11:16<Rhamphoryncus>andythenorth: it's a passive-aggressive way of saying "changing newgrfs is broken by design", sabotaging the user because openttd's own developer-tools flag is not harsh enough to satisfy you
11:16<@planetmaker>just don't use bogus or bad stuff
11:16<andythenorth>this is remarkably stupid
11:16<zxbiohazardzx>he may cripply his work if i touch his work
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11:17<zxbiohazardzx>but cripple his work if i modify my own work etc is just bad estetically
11:17<@planetmaker>quite what Rhamphoryncus says...
11:17<Eddi|zuHause>zxbiohazardzx: the problem is that you only learn that they changed their grfs after you already spent significant time on the bug report
11:17<zxbiohazardzx>the red warning from Alberth is way neater solution
11:17<zxbiohazardzx>Eddi yes i know
11:17<zxbiohazardzx>welcome to the horrible job of bugchecking & fixing
11:17<@planetmaker>zxbiohazardzx: red warning? Has anyone ever read it?
11:17<zxbiohazardzx>morons and jerks report ghost issues
11:17<V453000>why not just make a check if newgrfs were changed and flag the bugreports with that?
11:17<zxbiohazardzx>planetmaker scroll up, see his suggestion
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11:18<@planetmaker>zxbiohazardzx: but it's no bug. It's abusing a developer setting
11:18<Rubidium>V453000: that's what currently happens
11:18<zxbiohazardzx>i know it is planetmaker
11:18<Rubidium>also regarding crippling other NewGRFs... that's near trivial
11:18<@planetmaker>disable cross-talk
11:18<Rubidium>you only need to know the other GRFIDs
11:18<@planetmaker>return false on any newgrf availability check
11:19<Zuu>Am I just stupid, or why is it so complicated to figure out how to make a USB install drive for debian? Maby it is just easier to take the disk and put it in a old computer with a CD-drive and install debian there.
11:19<@planetmaker>but that's meh, too
11:19<@planetmaker>anyway... g2g. See you tomorrow folks
11:19<zxbiohazardzx>haha cya
11:19<zxbiohazardzx>but yeah i think NewGRFs are great
11:20<Rubidium>there's less than a thousand used GRFIDs, so with 4 action Es you've disabled all current NewGRFs
11:20<zxbiohazardzx>but if you forget 1 or want to add one then sometimes its a pain to go back to scratch
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11:20<Eddi|zuHause>Zuu: any sane distribution lets you just put the CD image on a stick (via dd) nowadays
11:20<zxbiohazardzx>specially on my "short" games where i dont intend on playing it too long then the "risk" is acceptable for me, and a bar like Alberth suggested would be sufficient
11:21<zxbiohazardzx>anyway gonna get myself some foods
11:21<Rhamphoryncus>Eddi|zuHause: so fix that. Have a debug info window in the help menu that shows all the version info
11:21<Rhamphoryncus>step 1 of reporting bug: C&P info from debug window
11:21<Zuu>Eddi|zuHause: That assums that you have linux installed on an non-virtual machine already. (which I do have, so maybe I should boot up that)
11:22<Eddi|zuHause>Zuu: there's dd for windows
11:22<Zuu>Oh, didn't knew that.
11:22<Eddi|zuHause>although i don't know how that can access raw devices
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11:23<@Alberth>who cares, it's the wrong OS anyway ;p
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11:45<oskari89>Well, should it be time for recolouring/texturing/shading something.
11:45<oskari89>Let's see, some Russian hoppers :)
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11:52<andythenorth>HMM
11:52<andythenorth>finescale tracks grf looks a bit interesting with CHIPS
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12:04<oskari89>andythenorth: Why all FISH ships are available from 1860's?
12:04<oskari89>Isn't it a bit unrealistic?
12:04<Eddi|zuHause>SHHH... we don't talk about this.
12:04<oskari89>:D
12:05<oskari89>FISHmaster. Hmm.
12:05<oskari89>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gg5_mlQOsUQ
12:06<andythenorth>oskari89: it's because you don't have the finished version
12:08<oskari89>Okay.
12:09<Rhamphoryncus>andythenorth: do *you* have the finished version?
12:10<Rhamphoryncus>Question: if providing a high res 32bpp sprite is that in addition to the traditional res 8bpp sprite, with the game choosing the right one?
12:11<andythenorth>Rhamphoryncus: no, I don't :P
12:12<Rhamphoryncus>andythenorth: XD
12:12<Eddi|zuHause>baaaah... i'm so utterly annoyed by this...
12:12<andythenorth>quoi?
12:12<Eddi|zuHause>www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/fix_invalid_values.diff
12:12<Rhamphoryncus>bah ram ewe!
12:12*Rhamphoryncus explodes
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12:15<Eddi|zuHause>how did these lines ever pass a review?
12:16<Eddi|zuHause>oh... revision 1 :p
12:26<oskari89>Idea: Could wagon have a running sound?
12:27<oskari89>Like in MSTS?
12:27<Eddi|zuHause>i'm pretty sure they could
12:27<oskari89>Or it is too resurce-consuming?
12:28<oskari89>Thought of this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=02BncpYdJcQ
12:29<andythenorth>mm
12:29<andythenorth>< Rubidium> there's less than a thousand used GRFIDs, so with 4 action Es you've disabled all current NewGRFs <- this interests me
12:30<andythenorth>gah
12:30<andythenorth>varaction 2 has no access to ttdp vars iirc
12:30<andythenorth>hmm
12:30<Eddi|zuHause>no, why would they?
12:30<andythenorth>wouldn't work anyway
12:31<andythenorth>can't disable there :P
12:31*andythenorth was trying to work out if a grf can store which other grfs are present
12:31<andythenorth>and then disable everything if they change
12:31<andythenorth>but exposing the flag would be best
12:32<Eddi|zuHause>with all due respect, it would be horrible...
12:32<oskari89>Yes it would.
12:32<oskari89>Nonsense-idea, which is all but just ruining things :P
12:32<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: why?
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12:33<andythenorth>toddler kicked me out of the room :P
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12:34<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: you compile your own ottd right?
12:34<oskari89>Because if you are newgrf dev, such as i am and upgrade for example, Finnish Trainset in a middle of a game, there will be a mess of things :P
12:35<oskari89>FIRS is good, but i will not use it if would behave like you plan :P
12:35<andythenorth>so compile your own ottd, remove the 'newgrf changed' flag in the savegame
12:35<andythenorth>I'm bored of this issue, it needs a brute force solution
12:35<oskari89>Just ignore those reports :P
12:35<andythenorth>ignore how exactly?
12:35<andythenorth>hmm
12:35<andythenorth>maybe I overlook something
12:36<andythenorth>if I open the savegame in a text editor, where is the flag?
12:37<andythenorth>I can't see it
12:37<andythenorth>format looks encoded, nothing plain english or obvious hex in there
12:39<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: is this the point where i say "you're overthinking this"?
12:39<andythenorth>might as well
12:39<oskari89>Andythenorth: When do you plan to release FIRS 0.7.2?
12:40<andythenorth>oskari89: when the compile farm has the correct version of NML
12:40<oskari89>Ok.
12:40<andythenorth>Ammler: when will the CF have the latest NML?
12:40<andythenorth>is it a daily update?
12:40<oskari89>andythenorth: Nonchanged industries, just language updates? :)
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12:41<oskari89>If so, i'm happy :)
12:41<andythenorth>few graphics changed
12:41<andythenorth>fixed an NML bug
12:41<oskari89>But no industry chain changes?
12:41<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: +0.5 to overthinking
12:42<andythenorth>but how do I check that flag manually? I miss it
12:42<oskari89>Hmm..
12:43<oskari89>http://marcin.ttdpatch.net/sv1codec/TTD-locations.html
12:43<oskari89>Does that help?
12:43<andythenorth>don't think so
12:43<andythenorth>this an ottd-specific thing
12:44<andythenorth>I'm looking for the easy way to ignore savegames where grfs have changed
12:46<oskari89>Sounds good.
12:47<Zuu>The "minimal" debian installer is 40 MB large. To large for my USB drives, so I ended up mounting the disk of my new computer in an old one to install the OS. Hopfully it will work fine. :-)
12:48<Zuu>The new computer don't replace my desktop but will rather be a low-power additional linux toy. :-)
12:48<SpComb>a 32MB USB drive?
12:50<Zuu>My usb drives are 0.5 and 2 GB.
12:50<SpComb>sounds like a 40MB installer would fit :)
12:51<SpComb>or even the normal netinst CD version
12:51<Zuu>Oh, my bad, I got it wrong by factor 1000 :-p
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12:53<andythenorth>oskari89: if you get latest NML, you can build your own FIRS
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12:53<frosch123>Zuu: neither a 40GB installer nor a 500kB USB stick sound correct :)
12:54<SpComb>the full DVD set is probably like 40GB
12:54<Zuu>frosch123: I though 40MB was more than 0.5 GB, but that was plainly wrong :-)
12:54<frosch123>hmm, maybe zuu means a live system instead of a installer
12:55*oskari89 thinks that #openttd is more on topic than #tycoon
12:55<frosch123>so you were off by factor 10 :)
12:55<Zuu>To little coffe I guess
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12:55<frosch123>oskari89: nothing new
12:55<__ln__>oskari89: oh, what can we do here to fix that?
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12:55<Zuu>__ln__: I'm trying my best :-)
12:55<frosch123>#tycoon is occupied by the forum off-topic section for years
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12:56<oskari89>__ln__: Nothing, it's just a stress-dumping channel :P
12:56<oskari89>Or ot or so.
12:56<SpComb>#tycoon, tt-forums off-topic section?
12:56<SpComb>nein
12:56<frosch123>i.e. those forum members you do not know, but who have 10000 posts nevertheless :p
12:57<oskari89>:D
12:57<oskari89>Place for veterans.
12:57<SpComb>correct
12:58<SpComb>the full debian dist is 52 images, it seems
12:58<SpComb>CD's, I mean
12:59<SpComb>that's a little over 30GB
12:59<SpComb>I think you can buy USB sticks that it would fit on comfortably, although it would probably take a day to copy it there :P
13:01<frosch123>some years ago the complete content of a gentoo mirror was around 40GB
13:01<SpComb>source dist?
13:01<frosch123>yes
13:01<SpComb>hmm, I wonder if the debian release CD sets include source as well
13:02<frosch123>i had no internet at home, but a 100mbit connection to a gentoo mirror
13:02<frosch123>so i copied it completely onto a usb disk
13:02<frosch123>and then installed offline :p
13:03<frosch123>[19:02] <frosch123> i had no internet at home, but a 100mbit connection to a gentoo mirror <- + "at university"
13:05<SpComb>`make world`
13:05<frosch123>emerge world
13:05<SpComb>right
13:05*SpComb is rusty on the gentoo stuff
13:06<SpComb>I once updated a gentoo server, but then it broke itself and it's been debian ever since
13:06<Rhamphoryncus>yay, unreproducible performance problem x_x
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13:09<NGC3982> hilight!
13:09*NGC3982 has the real life nick name rusty from time to time
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13:14<Rhamphoryncus>The game is bogging severely when I scroll over a town. This is a game I've been playing awhile, it's pretty much done. It was in 2012 but I cheated forward to 2100 just to see the last couple engines
13:14<Rhamphoryncus>Saving and reloading in a seperate copy of openttd has no problems, neither does using the previous save and cheating forward the year again
13:15<Rhamphoryncus>Attaching gdb and repeatedly interrupting for a bt is showing it spend a lot of time in GetRawSprite/ReadSprite
13:16<Rhamphoryncus>But it's not a debug build so I don't have much to work with
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13:26<Rhamphoryncus>GetSpriteCacheUsage() -> 52781584
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13:28<Rhamphoryncus>That's where my instinct is pointing but I have no idea what else to poke at
13:32<@Alberth>in openttd.cfg, you can poke at sprite cache sizes
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13:32<@Alberth>o/ andy!
13:32<andythenorth>o/
13:32<Rubidium>oi
13:34<Rhamphoryncus>Alberth: It doesn't have a problem when I load a save. I only have the running copy of openttd exhibiting it, which isn't even a debug build
13:35<andythenorth>the game does bog over cities
13:35<@Alberth>sprite stuff depends on what you look at, of course
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13:36<Rhamphoryncus>This is not a little bogging. This is 0.3 fps
13:36<supermop>i have one game with a large city, with meticulously timetabled commuter trains and trams
13:36<supermop>game almost stops when its on screen
13:36<Rhamphoryncus>hmm, maybe closer to 1 fps on average
13:36<andythenorth>may or may not be related to this http://bugs.openttd.org/task/4934
13:36<Rhamphoryncus>If I hit x it immediately goes back to normal
13:36<andythenorth>what town newgrf?
13:37<Rubidium>nah, it smells like there are too many different sprites to draw in the viewport(s), so it doesn't fit in the cache and it needs to refetch them repeatedly
13:37<Rhamphoryncus>total town replacement 2.13
13:37<Rhamphoryncus>err 3.13
13:37<Rhamphoryncus>Rubidium: so why does it work fine if I load a save?
13:37<Rubidium>you might try changing the advanced setting for the maximum zoom in level (decrease it to 1x)
13:38<Rubidium>Rhamphoryncus: different town? different buildings?
13:38<Rubidium>or the cache got corrupted
13:38<Rhamphoryncus>I think it's corrupted
13:38<Rhamphoryncus>I take the game, pause it over the town, save, fire up a second copy of openttd, load that save, runs fine
13:40<Rhamphoryncus>I did upgrade all the vehicles, which I haven't yet tried in the second copy, but throwing them into a depot didn't help
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13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: translators * r24115 /trunk/src/lang/polish.txt:
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: polish - 27 changes by Kilian
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14:05<andythenorth>xiong: does this bug persist? http://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/3772
14:06<xiong>andythenorth, M?
14:06*xiong looks
14:07<xiong>Persist after what change?
14:07<xiong>Persist into RC4?
14:07<Rhamphoryncus>Rubidium: reducing the max zoom level does indeed fix the performance. I had no idea that's what the option was for
14:08<Rubidium>it reduces the strain on the sprite cache
14:08<xiong>I really need 2x zoom in; one of the best features to come around recently.
14:09<xiong>I might try dispensing with 4x.
14:09<Rubidium>roughly speaking increasing one zoom level requires 4 times more memory, so two does that by 16 times
14:09<andythenorth>persists as in 'still exists'
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14:11<Rhamphoryncus>Isn't the point of a cache to keep what's actively being used?
14:12<xiong>andythenorth, In my current play, no Lumber Yard has been built; so the bug is indeterminate. I can create a game with such an industry... and the chemical chain to exercise it... and I'm happy to do so. But with what conditions? Has FIRS been updated? What shall I set up?
14:12<Rhamphoryncus>Zooming in to 4x runs fine
14:12<Rubidium>yes, but what zoom level of a sprite is used?
14:13<xiong>I thought I heard that zooming *out* required more... something.
14:13<xiong>Perhaps it's demanding either way.
14:13<Rhamphoryncus>I don't understand the question
14:14<Rubidium>for simplicity OpenTTD assumes a few things
14:14-!-kaenkky [~kaenkky_@212-226-74-9-nat.elisa-mobile.fi] has joined #openttd
14:14<Rubidium>1) the sprite cache is usually big enough
14:15<Rubidium>2) you're likely too zoom in/zoom out
14:15<andythenorth>xiong: nothing has changed in FIRS that would affect that bug
14:15<Rubidium>so filling the sprite cache is generally a one time thing
14:15<andythenorth>I thought you might be able to verify it faster than me, I don't have any games to hand
14:15<andythenorth>apparently same issue exists for http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=990763#p990763
14:16<xiong>Um, then would you like me to attempt to replicate it under RC4? Would you perhaps like a veryclean test case?
14:16<Rhamphoryncus>Ah, so regular misses are very, very expensive
14:16<Rubidium>furthermore you need to know the sprite offsets and stuff to be able to know the right size (in memory) of the sprite (they all have to have the same size (after scalling) for scaling/zooming/drawing issues)
14:16<xiong>I can remove most of my NewGRFs.
14:17<Rubidium>which means to even load a single sprite and make sure it adheres to the requirements you need to load the other sprites as well
14:17<Rubidium>so why not cache them then?
14:17*xiong looks
14:17<andythenorth>xiong: RC4 would be good
14:17<Rubidium>especially as you can have all zoom levels of a sprite visible at the same time!
14:17<andythenorth>newgrf interaction is...unlikely
14:17<Rhamphoryncus>Is that the entire newgrf at once? Or a smaller number of related sprites?
14:17<Rubidium>and that's what my question regarding the 'used zoom level' of a sprite was about
14:18<xiong>I've never had any Paper Mill issue I can recall. But it's easy enough to test that, as well.
14:18<xiong>Let me make some coffee, andythenorth. I do have chores to do today but I'll see if I can't crank out something with the weird stuff isolated.
14:18<andythenorth>it's most likely to be an issue with all secondary industry
14:18<andythenorth>they have shared production code
14:19<xiong>Dunno. Never seen an issue elsewhere.
14:19<andythenorth>but might also just be a few isolated cases
14:19<andythenorth>in both reports, chemicals is involved, but cargos should be a black box to the code
14:20<oskari89>Andythenorth: Is there any tractor on your HEQS set?
14:20<andythenorth>yes
14:20<xiong>I seem to recall seeing something... somewhere... suggesting that not all FIRS cargoes are alike. That, for instance, in the case of the Lumber Yard, lumber is the main input and chemicals secondary; so while chem gives a boost, it's not expected to produce output on its own, despite the window saying different.
14:20<oskari89>Can Finnish Trainset have one on Snps wagon? :)
14:20<andythenorth>is it GPL?
14:21<oskari89>Yes.
14:21<andythenorth>go ahead :)
14:21<oskari89>Thanks :)
14:21<xiong>This is one reason I was hesitant to file a bug on this; I wasn't sure what was wrong: behavior or documentation.
14:21<andythenorth>xiong: all cargos should result in output
14:21<andythenorth>the codebase was significantly rewritten, and this is likely introduced by that
14:21<xiong>I'm not arguing, andythenorth; I only note that "should" is a loaded word.
14:22<oskari89>andythenorth: Graphics with them are for FIRS farm equipment refit ;)
14:22<Rhamphoryncus>s/should/are supposed to/
14:22<xiong>I'll certainly be happy to crank out a solid test case.
14:22<andythenorth>thanks
14:22<oskari89>Hauling tractors :)
14:22<andythenorth>oskari89: you've got the HEQS repo checked out?
14:22<xiong>No problem. But coffee....
14:22<oskari89>Not yet.
14:22<andythenorth>easiest way
14:22<oskari89>You got link there?
14:22<andythenorth>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/heqs/repository
14:23<oskari89>Thanks :)
14:23<andythenorth>or you can browse online
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14:23<andythenorth>the tractors are a little oversized for most train sets :P
14:23<andythenorth>but nvm
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14:24<andythenorth>FIRS probably has a bug where some cargo is discarded under certain conditions. Likely in this file:
14:24<andythenorth>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/firs/repository/entry/sprites/nml/templates/produce_secondary.pnml
14:25<andythenorth>but I can't read that code, so I can't check by inspection :P
14:25<oskari89>Hmm, the front wheels should be more front on the third last row :P
14:25<oskari89>Otherwise good tractor.
14:26<andythenorth>it's an early HEQS sprite
14:26<andythenorth>they're not the best :P
14:26<oskari89>Is there something newer than that?`
14:27<andythenorth>no
14:27<andythenorth>ah the 3rd last row - that's an articulated tractor that I never finished :P
14:27-!-KouDy [~KouDy@175.137.102.249] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
14:28<oskari89>Okay..
14:28<oskari89>I'll modify it a little bit :)
14:29<oskari89>Front axle 3 px forward, that's more like it :)
14:30<oskari89>Oh, but its an.... combine harvester? :D
14:31<Rhamphoryncus>"How are we getting to work on the oil rig?" "We're going to fly, then catch a ride on a combine harvester."
14:32<telanus>Quick Question:STR_SORT_BY_RANGE The Range means distance? I'm translating it too Afrikaans and not sure what Afrikaans word to use, as we use different word for different meaning
14:33<telanus>And don't want to use the wrong word in OpenTTD
14:34<Rhamphoryncus>telanus: that's for aircraft and means how far they can go on one tank of fuel. I don't believe it's currently used
14:34<Rubidium>Rhamphoryncus: it's used with the new av8
14:34<Rhamphoryncus>Rather, the text is used, but there's no functionality behind it
14:34<Rhamphoryncus>oh nevermind XD
14:34<Rhamphoryncus>Apparently my av8 just isn't new enough
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14:38<Rhamphoryncus>telanus: specifically noun #7 here: http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/range
14:39<andythenorth>http://www.wnif.co.uk/articles/344/1/Deutz-Fahr-AgroXXL-offers-600hp-and-eight-wheel-drive/Page1.html
14:39<andythenorth>Agro XXL
14:44<telanus>Rhamphoryncus: Thanx :D
14:44<Rhamphoryncus>telanus: glad to help :)
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14:51<oskari89>andythenorth: Should i turn off the headlights of tractor when it's on wagon, or it's battery will run dry ;)
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14:57<andythenorth>sounds wise
14:58<oskari89>Dunnit :)
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15:10*Rhamphoryncus is looking at NUTS
15:10*Rhamphoryncus is now afraid of V453000
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15:17*andythenorth ponders installing smalltalk
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15:18*telanus is fixing very bad translation errorsO:-)
15:20<V453000>Rhamphoryncus: nothing to be afraid of :)
15:21<Rhamphoryncus>V453000: you are completely batshit insane. I respect that ;)
15:21<V453000>:D I take that as a compliment, thanks
15:21<Rhamphoryncus>hehe
15:22<Rhamphoryncus>The wide disparity in stats is exactly what I've been looking for
15:23<V453000>:) awesome
15:23<V453000>that is the core idea of the set
15:23<Rhamphoryncus>The uhh.. theme choice makes me cringe ;)
15:24<V453000>I wrote an article about it a long time ago ... not all info fits now, but the general ideas remain http://blog.openttdcoop.org/2011/10/18/nuts-revolution-among-train-sets/
15:25<V453000>nuts also has a readme ... which is actually outdated as well but it mentions some points too :)
15:26-!-tegro [~undefined@78-105-226-68.zone3.bethere.co.uk] has joined #openttd
15:26<tegro>I'm trying to download OpenTTD I keep getting a 404.
15:26<tegro>Is there a mirror available?
15:27<Rubidium>I guess it's the actual mirror giving you the 404
15:27<Eddi|zuHause>tegro: <country-code>.binaries.openttd.org
15:28<tegro>Eddi|zuHause: Perfect. :D Thanks. Where is that linked to on the homepage? I couldn't find it.
15:28<tegro>Rubidium: I guess so too : )
15:29<Rubidium>do you actually get a 404 or some other error?
15:29<Rubidium>and what do you try to download exactly?
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15:29<tegro>Rubidium: I click Download Stable, I select Windows64 and click the installer link.
15:29<Rubidium>V453000: I would've chosen different names for the trains, e.g. Chestnut or Almond
15:30<tegro>Rubidium: Then it times out and I get a 503.
15:30<tegro>It's trying to connect to gb.binaries.openttd.org
15:31<V453000>meh :)
15:31<Rubidium>tegro: try again
15:32<tegro>Rubidium: It now appears to be working. :)
15:32<Rhamphoryncus>V453000: Skimmed over it. I agree with it all except wagon length. Even then I understand the reason for it.
15:32<Rubidium>removed the GB mirror from the balancer
15:33<V453000>well the wagons are still visually 4/8 or 8/8
15:33<Eddi|zuHause>tegro: btw. the mirrors are listed on the links section of the homepage
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15:34<Someus>Hi
15:34<Someus>Want to play online with me?
15:35<Someus>I can`t make my for trains to deliver coal in right way
15:35<Someus>four trains
15:35<Someus>That signal thing
15:38<Wolf01>'night all
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15:58<Rhamphoryncus>V453000: no autorefit :O
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16:07<V453000>no, retarded featuer
16:08<V453000>only takes away all kind of why refit is interesting
16:12<Rhamphoryncus>Depots are retarded :P
16:12<Rhamphoryncus>I love autorefit
16:14<V453000>well ... if you do a refit game, it is interesting by being specific and building a refit station is a very interesting task. While if you do it with autorefit, it is totally the same as building an ordinary station
16:15<Rhamphoryncus>Not everybody plays the same way you do ;)
16:15<Rhamphoryncus>Refit stations would be interesting.. if they actually existed rather than being depots
16:16<V453000>http://blog.openttdcoop.org/2012/02/16/advanced-building-revue-11-refit-stations/
16:16<V453000>it can be a lot smaller of course
16:16<oskari89>andythenorth: I have a FIRS cargo request :)
16:16<oskari89>Peat :)
16:16<V453000>but it is a category of building, which is just simply killed with autorefit
16:16<V453000>which I refuse
16:17<oskari89>It can be shipped to power station, instead of coal.
16:17<FLHerne>Is autorefit optional?
16:17<V453000>yes, the newgrf must allow it FLHerne
16:17<Rhamphoryncus>It'd be easy to make as a newgrf config option
16:18<Rhamphoryncus>What about boats? Do you refuse to use them? ;)
16:18<V453000>yes
16:18<V453000>nothing interesting in doing so
16:19<Rhamphoryncus>Autorefit being a very different building style
16:19<V453000>not quite, what exactly is different?
16:19<V453000>autorefit is automatizing normal stations to do something else, but you build the same as normally
16:19<Rhamphoryncus>Very different from your refit station
16:19<V453000>how is it different from a normal station
16:20<Rhamphoryncus>Naw, you have to actually use one station, unlike normal openttdcoop
16:20<V453000>?
16:20-!-Poorunfortunatesouls [5199cdb7@ircip1.mibbit.com] has quit [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client]
16:20<Rhamphoryncus>.. the whole reason you object to it? It doesn't need a depot in the middle of every platform?
16:21<V453000>it doesnt matter of what the refit station consists
16:21<V453000>My problem is that an autorefit station is a totally ordinary station without anything specific
16:21-!-drac_boy [~drac_boy@modemcable085.125-161-184.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #openttd
16:21<drac_boy>hi
16:21<Rhamphoryncus>So? Try to find a way to fix that
16:22<V453000>not use autorefit
16:22<V453000>only way
16:22<V453000>the point of the feature is exactly that
16:22<Rhamphoryncus>urgh
16:22<Rhamphoryncus>So what is the license on NUTS?
16:23<V453000>all rights reserverd of course
16:23<Rhamphoryncus>blah
16:23<Rhamphoryncus>Infighting is such fun
16:23<V453000>yes exactly, no messing with and adding stupid features
16:23<Eddi|zuHause>you can't actually forbid that
16:24<drac_boy>eddi at least he can make sure it isn't included in the offical release of his own tho no?
16:24<V453000>well the license forbids pretty much anything doesnt it
16:24<Eddi|zuHause>you always have the right to reverse-engineer and modify a program "for compatibility"
16:24<andythenorth>today appears to be a day of strong opinions :P
16:25<Rhamphoryncus>andythenorth: indeed
16:25<Eddi|zuHause>as long as you have a license
16:25<andythenorth>V453000: it's ok, when I get my way any of my grfs will disable yours anyway :P
16:25<andythenorth>I have upgraded my plan
16:25<Eddi|zuHause>and you can pass along all information needed to make the modifications to all other people with a valid license
16:25<andythenorth>I'm aiming to now persuade grf authors to include a feature in their grfs
16:25<andythenorth>that will disable all grfs used
16:25<andythenorth>thereby solving all problems with newgrf
16:25<andythenorth>no bug reports
16:25<V453000>lol
16:26<andythenorth>no feature requests
16:26<andythenorth>it's like rm *
16:26<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth really needs to get some sleep
16:26<andythenorth>except we can still say 'hundreds of newgrfs made by the community'
16:26<Eddi|zuHause>a whole week or so
16:26<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: + 0.7999
16:27<andythenorth>and also I stopped taking codeine
16:27<Prof_Frink>Newgrfs are evil anyway. We should all play TTD as Lord Chris intended.
16:27<andythenorth>for the obvious reasons :P
16:27<andythenorth>where's monsieur bird?
16:27<V453000>what is the point of this discussion anyway? Rhamphoryncus just refuses to accept that I have good reasons why not to include auto-refit and even considers to add it to my set knowing that I disagree? That is royally rude even if the license allowed it.
16:27<Eddi|zuHause>Prof_Frink: you mean without Win2k compatibility?
16:27<andythenorth>monsieur stops me saying silly things
16:27<drac_boy>Prof_Frink heh well I wouldn't mind that considering its easy to exchange the sprites in the original grf to get a non-uk presence anyway :)
16:27<Rhamphoryncus>V453000: no, that's the entire POINT of having an open source license
16:28<drac_boy>eg replace the pannier 0-6-0T with a normal slim tank black 0-6-0T
16:28<Prof_Frink>drac_boy: Blasphemy!
16:28<V453000>Rhamphoryncus: make your own set?
16:28<drac_boy>Prof_Frink well I already have a heavily modified ttd grf mind you
16:28<Rhamphoryncus>I've pondered that. It'll end up remarkably similar in stats to yours :/
16:28<Rhamphoryncus>(same goals)
16:29<V453000>too bad
16:29<Prof_Frink>Burn the heretic!
16:29<Rhamphoryncus>Lots of duplicated effort, unfortunately
16:29<V453000>nah you will have the almighty autorefit
16:30*telanus think it's enough translating for one evening, 20 new translations and about the same if not more fixed
16:31*NGC3982 sets up a network game just so he can play singelplayer with lots and lots of monitors.
16:31<NGC3982>the game gets fantasticly intricate with one monitor for the <what i see>, and one for the statistics and map.
16:32<drac_boy>heh
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16:32<drac_boy>telanus heh I still have to sort out some translatings here .. still have a few difficult words left :-s
16:34<drac_boy>how many languages you working with telanus?
16:34<drac_boy>me just only one at least :)
16:35<telanus>Yip know that feeling, especially if there is 5 different meanings for the same word, and when translated it can be up to 12 different words, depending on what meant
16:35<telanus>I'm only busy with one ATM
16:35<Rhamphoryncus>I only know english, and even that I argue with people about
16:36<telanus>As I only know Afrikaans and English
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16:36<drac_boy>afrikaans.... africa or I'm wrong?
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16:37<frosch123>drac_boy: netherlands
16:37<telanus>yip: South Africa
16:37<@Alberth>good night all
16:37<telanus>Netherlands = Dutch If I remember correctly
16:38<telanus>Night Albetth
16:38<@Alberth>telanus: correct
16:38<drac_boy>bye Alberth
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16:38<frosch123>yeah, but aren't africaan and dutch almost the same?
16:38<drac_boy>telanus ... deutsch? :)
16:38<telanus>They are closely related
16:39<telanus>Deutsch = German
16:39<drac_boy>yeah thats what I'm working with btw
16:39<drac_boy>lot of things were easy to figure out, a few I had to ask here about
16:39-!-Arafangion [~Arafangio@220-244-108-23.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out]
16:39<telanus>Afrikaans was once called kitchen dutch
16:39<drac_boy>but theres a few more thats a bit stumping .. some train related and some not
16:40<__ln__>so if i write dutch by mixing german + english while spelling the words in a funny way, what should i do more to get afrikaans?
16:40<andythenorth>can anyone build FIRS 0.7.2 and tell me the md5 sum?
16:40<andythenorth>it needs the latest NML
16:42<frosch123>grfid -m firs.grf
16:42<frosch123>9d9fe152fbfab57313a7e88509015518
16:43<telanus> __ln__: a lot more is needed, like we use double negatives, (like I didn't do it would be ek het dit nie gedoen nie)
16:43<andythenorth>hmm
16:43<andythenorth>doesn't match
16:43<andythenorth>I have 9d9fe152fbfab57313a7e88509015518
16:43<andythenorth>:(
16:43<andythenorth>oops
16:43<andythenorth>I have fbc1ce3202e6914c9312bf32384588b6
16:43<andythenorth>:)
16:44<andythenorth>compile farm has 857e59929e676a933bf5fd91f23ded31
16:45<frosch123>[22:43] <andythenorth> I have fbc1ce3202e6914c9312bf32384588b6 <- that is the md5sum of the whole file
16:45<frosch123>you should use grfid -m
16:46<andythenorth>where / how?
16:46<andythenorth>:o
16:46<frosch123>in the grfcodec package :)
16:47<frosch123>grf container 2 files compute the md5sum only for the data part, not for the sprite part
16:47<frosch123>that way you can strip 32bpp or zoom sprites from a grf without changing the md5sum
16:48<frosch123>so, what md5sum does the devzone generate?
16:48<frosch123>maybe for the whole bundle? :p
16:51<andythenorth>so my md5 matches yours
16:51<andythenorth>so I can probably release
16:58<frosch123>night
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16:59<NGC3982>when was tractive effort introduced?
17:00<@Terkhen>for trains? years ago, along with realistic acceleration
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17:04<andythenorth>bye
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17:06<NGC3982>Terkhen: i see.
17:06<NGC3982>for some reason, i have never seen it.
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17:09<Eddi|zuHause>NGC3982: it's only shown when realistic acceleration is enabled
17:09<NGC3982>ah, that explains it.
17:22<@Terkhen>good night
17:23<NGC3982>Terkhen: night
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18:29<drac_boy>hmm what would be a 'marketplace' in german
18:30<NGC3982>marktplatz?
18:30<drac_boy>oh...should had seen that one coming
18:30<drac_boy>thanks
18:31<NGC3982>im not really sure
18:31<NGC3982>that is just the litteral translation of market and place.
18:31<NGC3982>:)
18:32<drac_boy>heh I'll start with it for now tho :)
18:37<NGC3982>http://i.imgur.com/mVnx0.png
18:37<NGC3982>what am i missing here? :)
18:39<drac_boy>full != 50
18:39<drac_boy>:p
18:40<NGC3982>if i set it to load normally it just takes the amount in the station and leaves
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18:41<Eddi|zuHause>yes. that is what that means
18:41<NGC3982>can i make it wait until 50% is loaded?
18:41<Eddi|zuHause>no
18:42<NGC3982>ah, i see.
18:42<Eddi|zuHause>you can only make it go a small loop if it's not 50%
18:42<Eddi|zuHause>to get back to the same station
18:42<NGC3982>ok
18:43<Eddi|zuHause>in other notes: "exactly" 50% will almost never happen
18:44<NGC3982>i see. well, better make more trains instead :)
18:44<NGC3982>thank you.
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19:01<drac_boy>hmm just realized something
19:01<drac_boy>many decent laptops are oem from uniwill which turns out to be a branch of ECS ... makes me wondering if its even trusty or not
19:07<drac_boy>oh well maybe rather not
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19:32<Zuu>NGC3982: The AI AIAI uses the conditional order trick to make vehicles load at least some cargo before departuring to the destination. It causes the vehicles to drive around in a loop at the source station untill they get some cargo.
19:33<drac_boy>heh sounds like the old AI as usual, not even knowing how to think :)
19:33<Zuu>CluelessPlus toggles full load for town to town connections on and off under certain conditions. Eg. if all vehicles end up loading at one end so that the rating drops under some limit at the other side. Though, this is more of a workaround to the problem that it buys to large aircrafts for some connections.
19:38*drac_boy just never had wanted to bother with the AI in any sort of ways :/
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19:51<Zuu>I never used to play with AIs until I wrote one.
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20:24<xiong>NGC3982, note the caution attached to some train sets that allow a regearing refit. These may *never* "full load all"; instead, "full load any" is recommended. If you do some sort of conditional order loop, don't test for = 100%.
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20:27<drac_boy>hmm should bridges be part of or split from a track set?
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20:38<NGC3982> ok
20:45<Rhamphoryncus>drac_boy: I'd say split, particularly if you can make them work with different track sets
20:45<drac_boy>thanks
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20:56<drac_boy>if theres one thing I sometimes hate about following train specs..its that some sources don't get it right and you didn't know because you didn't have a second source to check :/
20:57<drac_boy>how can one 10-cars emu carry 1564 passengers while another one only carries 349
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20:57<drac_boy>heh oh well guess thats normal for some grf peope
20:57<drac_boy>people*
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---Logclosed Sun Apr 15 00:00:10 2012