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#openttd IRC Logs for 2012-04-15

---Logopened Sun Apr 15 00:00:10 2012
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00:42<xiong>andythenorth, defined the issue. Not a bug, perhaps.
00:42<andythenorth>?
00:42<andythenorth>:)
00:43<xiong>I tend to run "pigs" to distribute rare cargoes. These are small-cap vehicles that load and unload at the same station. So cargo is transferred but not delivered by the big train; then delivered by the pig.
00:44<xiong>The classic case is es/fs but I've done similar things in order to slop multiple cargoes around and get max production. So for the yard, lumber and chem. In this case, chem is the "additive", in the sense that I may not have enough to go around; so I might ration it out with a pig.
00:45<xiong>In the case I talked about here in #openttd, it so happened that I got the pig up and running before regular bulk deliveries of lumber; so that's why I noticed the unexpected behavior -- the lack of production.
00:46<andythenorth>apart from possible limitation with non-float maths, that case should be allowed for
00:46<andythenorth>i.e. small deliveries
00:46<xiong>So here it is: The pig drops, say, 12,000 liters of chem; that works out to 3 crates of es/bm combined. How that splits up I don't know; but the yard produces a small quantity of both on the *third* pig.
00:46<andythenorth>ah
00:46<andythenorth>that sounds more correct
00:47<xiong>So I infer some fixed-point math and the stuff to the right of the decimal properly accounted for.
00:47<andythenorth>I believe it's stockpiling internally until small amounts of cargo can be validly converted to output
00:47<andythenorth>I didn't write this code, but that was our design
00:48<xiong>In the case I discussed here, my pig was even smaller, a horse-drawn tanker; so it might have taken many more loops for an integer number of crates to be produced. By that time, of course, I had the lumber coming in.
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00:49<xiong>So, I'd say, andythenorth, that is not a bug.
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01:07<xiong>Um, I have to say, you know, I thought of this at the time. But in the above example, I expect at least 1 crate of each on the second pig; not 4 crates of each on the third.
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01:08<xiong>That's with a station rating of 69%. Doesn't quite work out.
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01:21<andythenorth>xiong: could be that the maths needs improvement
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01:30<andythenorth>hmm
01:30<andythenorth>hi orudge - FIRS release thread first post appears to be non-editable for me :o :)
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01:39<xiong>I wouldn't go that far, andythenorth -- unless the issue crops up on a larger scale somewhere else.
01:40<andythenorth>could simply be the 'minimum distributed amount'
01:40*andythenorth looks
01:41<andythenorth>min cargo distr: 5
01:42<andythenorth>@calc 0.69 * 5
01:42<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: 3.45
01:42<andythenorth>plausible
01:42<andythenorth>xiong: but this caused a bug report....because it's non-obvious what the mechanism is?
01:43<andythenorth>could be a bug in explanation
01:43<andythenorth>Failure demand
01:43<andythenorth>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Failure_demand
01:43<xiong>Ha.
01:44-!-roboboy [~robotboy@CPE-58-173-43-55.nxzp1.ken.bigpond.net.au] has joined #openttd
01:44<xiong>Ha ha.
01:47<xiong>I don't know where you'd begin, to establish the correct "tooth" or "feel". That's gamewide. Player should get appropriate feedback but that's difficult in an integer world.
01:49<xiong>I might find it useful to have some sort of binary indication, a little green light representing "not zero". That tells me that the industry is operating at a low level. But others would ask, "What's that little green dot?"
01:49<xiong>I'd rather have any number of other features.
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02:31<andythenorth>tis Pikka
02:31<Pikka>oui
02:31<andythenorth>or an imposter
02:31<andythenorth>how to prove you're a pikka?
02:31<andythenorth>and not a turing machine?
02:32<Pikka>turing machines don't do things like
02:32<Pikka>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dLtnrnXlLmc
02:35<andythenorth>probably not
02:35<andythenorth>I've never knowingly met a turing machine
02:35<Pikka>much too sensible
02:35<Pikka>I once met turing's other machine
02:35<andythenorth>hmm....you won't like my suggestion for 'solving' player-changed-grfs-in-game issue :p
02:35<Pikka>it makes pretty good sandwiches
02:36<Pikka>no more grfs
02:36<andythenorth>yes
02:36<andythenorth>turn them all off
02:36<andythenorth>no bug reports
02:36<Pikka>yes
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02:36<andythenorth>no more requests for 'please can I change grfs'
02:36<andythenorth>no more pissy discussions :P
02:36<andythenorth>last point probably won't work actually
02:38<andythenorth>ho
02:38<andythenorth>7 downloads for FIRS
02:38<andythenorth>that could have been $14 :P
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02:38<Pikka>there's a new FIRS?
02:39<andythenorth>bug fix
02:39<andythenorth>translations
02:39<andythenorth>I got motivated :P
02:41<Pikka>did it hurt?
02:42<andythenorth>only a little
02:43<andythenorth>one of the bugs was in nml
02:43<andythenorth>someone else sent a patch for the other one
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02:58<andythenorth>Pikka: http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/2844/chips_pikka_tracks.png
02:58<andythenorth>I should make the station overlay sprites larger?
02:58<Pikka>it works?
02:58<Pikka>I don't know
02:58<Pikka>may cause problems with olde-worlde-tracks
02:58<andythenorth>hmm
02:59<andythenorth>probably would need special case
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03:05<andythenorth>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/2845/chips_pikka_tracks_2.png
03:07<andythenorth>bit funky with original tracks
03:07<andythenorth>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/2846/chips_pikka_tracks_3.png
03:07<andythenorth>sharp edged :P
03:10<Pikka>neat :)
03:14<andythenorth>you pesky grf authors
03:14<andythenorth>and your innovations :/
03:15<andythenorth>hmm
03:16<andythenorth>could overlay another child sprite, but I don't know how to do that conditionally
03:16<andythenorth>nor how to check for other grfs, whose grfids might change :P
03:16<@Terkhen>good morning
03:16<andythenorth>bonjour Terkhen
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03:26<andythenorth>hmm
03:26<andythenorth>the station spec will never really quite work with railtypes
03:27<@Terkhen>we need a completely new NewGRF implementation & specs :P
03:27<@Terkhen>we could do it in xml, as most people hate it
03:28<andythenorth>some of BANDIT is xml
03:28<andythenorth>:P
03:28<@Terkhen>really? :O
03:29<@Terkhen>scary
03:29<andythenorth>it's not the expected parts :P
03:29<andythenorth>the templating language is declared in an xml format :P
03:30<andythenorth>the data isn't
03:30<@Terkhen>double scary :P
03:30<andythenorth>so the station spec basically demands that for railtype support...
03:30<andythenorth>...station authors need to
03:30<andythenorth>(1) have knowledge of every railtype set
03:30<andythenorth>(2) copy the rail sprites from those sets into the station grf
03:31<andythenorth>otherwise railtype support is 'nil points'
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04:32<andythenorth>hmm
04:32<andythenorth>also hnn
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04:43<@Alberth>hihi, jummy, bananas-shaken FIRS 0.7.2. Congrats andy
04:44<andythenorth>;)
04:44<andythenorth>mostly foobar not me
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04:50<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r24116 /branches/1.2/ (8 files in 5 dirs):
04:50<CIA-1>OpenTTD: [1.2] -Backport from trunk:
04:50<CIA-1>OpenTTD: - Fix: When starting GS or AI, always use the settings of the game, not the new-game settings [FS#5142] (r24108)
04:50<CIA-1>OpenTTD: - Fix: Provide translated comments in the desktop file without language name postfix (r24100)
04:50<CIA-1>OpenTTD: - Fix: Cloning orders of aircraft with limited range failed [FS#5131] (r24086)
04:56<telanus>who ever did the Afrikaans translation, really need to go ask their school fees back
04:59<@Alberth>that's why it is better to have several translators for a language; together you know more, and can you can discuss and fix each others mistakes
05:00<__ln__>or together you mess up more
05:00<telanus>true.
05:00<Eddi|zuHause>"viele Köche verderben den Brei"
05:00<TinoDidriksen>A collective mess-up is much rarer for translation tasks.
05:02<__ln__>many translators is only good when they are communicating with each other and working systematically, e.g. by creating a list of how to translate certain words.
05:03<__ln__>but with OTTD, you don't even know who the other translators are.
05:03<@Alberth>unless you start a translation topic in the forum :p
05:04<__ln__>which the others are by no means required to read or even know about.
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05:20<telanus>Afrikaans translation sometimes read like a google translated text string. Miost problems I get is that wrong words for the meaning of a certain is used, Spelling errors, and the most common is syntax problems
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05:45<heffer>hey guys. if anyone could take a look into this bugreport i got yesterday on the Fedora openttd 1.2.0-RC4 package: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=812560
05:45<heffer>title reads: [abrt] openttd-1.2.0-0.1.RC4.fc17: __GI_raise: Process /usr/bin/openttd was killed by signal 6 (SIGABRT)
05:46<heffer>i can't really tell what's going on there and i also can't reproduce this locally
05:49<@Alberth>ShowErrorMessage (summary_msg=1127, detailed_msg=1129 would seem to be what it was doing
05:50<@Alberth>buf = "String 0x467 is invalid. You are probably using an old version of the .lng file. would that be this message?
05:50<@Alberth>@calc 0x467
05:50<@DorpsGek>Alberth: 1127
05:53<@Alberth>so it tried to output an error, but it had no string 1127, and telling that crashed the program for some reason, it seems
05:53<heffer>that's weird. wouldn't the lng file be contained in the release itself?
05:54<heffer>yes it is in the rpm and would be overwritten in case the user updated openttd
05:57<heffer>so i assume an old lng file was bundled with the 1.2.0-RC4 release which for some reason crashes openttd
05:59<@Alberth>http://www.fpaste.org/rKIs/ something with the config file, it seems http://www.fpaste.org/rKIs/
05:59<Rubidium>heffer: bundled with the 1.2.0-RC4 release in what way?
06:01<heffer>Rubidium: as in being contained in the openttd-1.2.0-RC4-source.tar.xz
06:01<Rubidium>that's pretty unlikely
06:01<heffer>so maybe the root cause is somewhere else then?
06:02<Rubidium>as the lng files are not supposed to be in the svn repository
06:02<heffer>shall i ask the user to upload his .openttd directory if there seems to be an error in the configuration?
06:03<Rubidium>there's no file with lng in the filename in the source tarball
06:03<heffer>you're right, i was getting this wrong
06:03<heffer>they are created in the build process that is :D
06:03<Rubidium>exactly
06:04<heffer>okay but what was build is what came with the source tarball
06:04<frosch123> str = 0xd480c0 "SHOW_TOWN_NAMES|SHOW_STATION_NAMES|SHOW_SIGNS|FULL_ANIMATION|TRANS_BUILDINGS|FULL_DETAIL|WAYPOINTS" <- that means the user was using ottd <= 0.5.x before
06:04<frosch123>was that ever bundles with your distro? or was it a manual installation of the user?
06:04<heffer>okay so basically he is trying to re-use his config dir from an ancient version
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06:04<drac_boy>hi
06:04<heffer>i'll have a look
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06:05<heffer>no we started with shipping 0.6.3
06:06<frosch123>so, he has a config file from 0.5.x, then maybe he also has some lng files from 0.5.x somewhere, which 1.2 finds instead of its own
06:06<heffer>so basically this is prety much a corner case and i just ask the user to move his .openttd dir
06:07<frosch123>the config file is not the problem
06:07<heffer>the lng files he might have in .openttd are?
06:07<frosch123>the problem is that he has some invalid mixed installation of 1.2 and 0.5
06:07<heffer>oh okay
06:07<heffer>i'll ask him if that is the case
06:08<heffer>thanks guys. you are, as always, the best :D
06:08<Rubidium>I'd like the openttd crash log of that crash
06:08<heffer>favorite upstream <3
06:08<heffer>:D
06:08<heffer>okay i'll ask him to provide me with that
06:08<Rubidium>primarily because that tells us which language is used (and probably with a path)
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06:11<heffer>okay i asked him to provide me with that file
06:13<heffer>i'll get back to you as soon as i have more info from him
06:14<@Alberth>ok, tnx
06:15<heffer>what i like most about openttd as upstream is that bugs are fixed no matter how much of a corner case they are :D
06:16<heffer>other upstreams just say: have that guy remove his broken installation and start off fresh :D
06:17<drac_boy>heffer well I would had actually suggested that but then mm
06:20<andythenorth>worse is better is worse http://dreamsongs.com/Files/worse-is-worse.pdf
06:22<heffer>drac_boy: i had something similar happen before. i don't exactly remember what it was, but in the end a check was introduced to prevent this from crashing openttd
06:22<Eddi|zuHause>bäh... filthy keyboard is filthy
06:25<@Alberth>buy a new one :)
06:25<Eddi|zuHause>Ammler recently had a case of "wrong language packs", and nobody could really figure out what it was
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06:34<frosch123>@calc 2**36
06:34<@DorpsGek>frosch123: 68719476736
06:35<frosch123>what's so special about that number?
06:35<drac_boy>no idea frosch123?
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06:36<frosch123>andy's paper says the pdb-10 had 36 bit words
06:36<frosch123>maybe it is a typo :p
06:37<drac_boy>heh ok
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06:45<Pikka>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/36-bit_word_length frosch123?
06:46<Pikka>"just long enough to represent positive and negative integers to an accuracy of ten decimal digits" is the reasoning, apparently.
06:46<frosch123>yeah, i considered that when doing the above computation, but i forgot the signedness
06:47<andythenorth>worth mentioning that the paper is written under a false name by Richard P Gabriel
06:47<Pikka>they don't make computers like the PDP-10 any more :)
06:48<andythenorth>http://dreamsongs.com/Files/DesignedAsDesignerExpanded.pdf
06:48<frosch123>andythenorth: is that the author of the paper benig discussed?
06:48<andythenorth>frosch123: yes
06:48<andythenorth>he invented a false name to critique his own paper
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06:51<oskari89>Has somebody drawn chemical containers such as this on top of that flat: http://vaunut.org/kuva/61672 ?
06:52<andythenorth>not me
06:52<oskari89>Pikka: see query?
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06:54<andythenorth>oskari89: what length?
06:54<andythenorth>I have tanks in 3/8 and 5/8
06:54<oskari89>That's about 20"
06:54<oskari89>10 metres :P
06:54<andythenorth>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/2849/body_tank-silver-3_8.png
06:55<oskari89>Yep, that's 20" http://www.eurotainer.com/en/page/products/standard-tanks.html
06:55<heffer>guys the crash.log is here: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=812560
06:56<heffer>seems to support what you were saying :D
06:57<Rubidium>oh... interesting
06:57<Rubidium>it tries to draw/resolve a string before it has loaded a language at all
06:57<oskari89>andythenorth: Let's see...
06:58<andythenorth>oskari89: I can generate other lengths too
06:58<andythenorth>it's trivial
06:58<andythenorth>and I have 1CC, 2CC, and black
07:00<oskari89>Could you do that 20' eurotainer :)
07:00<oskari89>In white form?
07:01<oskari89>With markings as in that eurotainer.com link?
07:01<oskari89>And yellow cage :)
07:02<oskari89>That would help me and other set's devs too :)
07:03<andythenorth>not today
07:03<andythenorth>I can do a white tube
07:03<oskari89>Okay.
07:03<oskari89>Do a white tube, i'll modify that :)
07:03<andythenorth>I do want to do generate containers but today is a day for chores
07:04<andythenorth>length ok?
07:04<Rubidium>heffer: it's going to be quite a bitch to solve that issue nicely
07:04<oskari89>I'll check, just a minute.
07:04<heffer>Rubidium: oh my :D
07:05<heffer>if i interpreted it correctly the user says that this even happens if he has ottd create a completely new config dir
07:06<NGC3982>http://i.imgur.com/Is8VB.jpg
07:06<oskari89>Andythenorth: 1px longer, other than that, good :)
07:07<Rubidium>heffer: the problem is that there's something wrong in the configuration it's loading
07:07<andythenorth> it comes in 4px increments
07:07<andythenorth>to match vehicle lengths
07:07<Rubidium>the configuration is loaded in two steps; one that loads the part with the blitter, video driver, language configuration and one with the many many other settings
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07:08<andythenorth>here's one http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/2853/body_tank-white-3_8.png
07:08<andythenorth>I can tweak
07:08<heffer>Rubidium: and will this only occur if it's not a fresh install?
07:08<heffer>because i can't reproduce this on a fresh test VM
07:08<Wolf01>hi
07:08<andythenorth>oskari89 the stripe colour can be changed or made white
07:09<oskari89>Ok.
07:09<Rubidium>during the first step a failure is found and it tries to show an error message; all goes well as the error message will be shown once the video driver is loaded. However... if the error is marked 'critical' it's also drawn to the console and there it tries to resolve the string of the error message
07:09<oskari89>That's good.
07:09<Rubidium>... but it hasn't finished loading the part of the settings with the message, so it has no language loaded and it bails out nastily
07:10<Rubidium>having said that: if there's no openttd.cfg found by OpenTTD it will not happen
07:10<Rubidium>if there is an openttd.cfg found by OpenTTD it can happen if the misc section contains broken settings
07:11<Rubidium>easiest to reproduce is messing with the display opt setting
07:12<oskari89>andythenorth: What should be 20' and 40 container length in TTD-scale?
07:12<heffer>yeah that breaks it :D
07:12<oskari89>3/8 or 4/8?
07:12<andythenorth>oskari89: maybe 4/8
07:12<andythenorth>depends on your sense of scale I guess
07:12<andythenorth>I can do 4/8 if you like
07:12<oskari89>Do please :)
07:13<oskari89>I'll test that too.
07:15<drac_boy>I guess you'll need a different scale for containers on ukrs2 flatcars I imagine
07:19<andythenorth>oskari89: http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/2854/tanks.zip
07:20<oskari89>Hmm..
07:21<oskari89>It seems that the right answer would be 3/8.
07:21<oskari89>Or 1 px longer.
07:22<andythenorth>you could hack the BANDIT files if you check them out
07:22<andythenorth>but if you only need a few containers...
07:22<oskari89>40" container... 4/8..
07:22<oskari89>Yes, with variations :P
07:22<oskari89>I'm thinking a little.
07:22<andythenorth>...hacking has a setup time
07:22<andythenorth>pixa generator can be taught to draw containers
07:22<andythenorth>they're easy
07:23<oskari89>pixa generator?
07:23<oskari89>What's that? :)
07:23<andythenorth>python library
07:23<Rubidium>heffer: I made FS#5154
07:24<heffer>Rubidium: great. i'll note that in our bugzilla as well
07:24<Rubidium>it won't make 1.2.0 though
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07:25<andythenorth>oskari89: the tank bodies are drawn from this http://hg.openttdcoop.org/bandit/raw-file/67925e10cb6d/src/pixel_generator/input/tank_body_floorplan.png
07:26<oskari89>Ok.
07:26<andythenorth>and this http://hg.openttdcoop.org/bandit/file/67925e10cb6d/src/pixel_generator/gestalts/tank_body.py
07:27*NGC3982 needs a tip on new trainset grfs
07:28<drac_boy>NGC3982 what kind? :)
07:28<Eddi|zuHause>bäh... clean keyboard is still filthy
07:29<Pikka>eddi: you have to pull all the keys off to clean it properly
07:29<NGC3982>drac_boy: any kind! im just fooling around, and i want to try something new.
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07:30<Zuu>Hmm, is there no BOOL_SETTING flag for NewGRFs to set on settings that can only be on/off? Like for AIs you can tell OpenTTD that a setting is boolean and it will display a toggle button instead of arrow buttons.
07:30<Pikka>there is, Zuu
07:30<Pikka>for newgrf parameters, I assume you mean
07:30<Zuu>Yep, then this NewGRF I was looking at didn't make use of it.
07:30<Pikka>http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/Action14
07:30<Pikka>which one's that? :)
07:31<Zuu>"8/32bpp Trains 2CC" - trying to reproduce FS#5151
07:32<Eddi|zuHause>Pikka: i did that. and washed each one individually
07:32<Pikka>must've been pretty dirty then, eddi
07:32-!-Elu [Elukka@78-27-90-14.bb.dnainternet.fi] has quit []
07:32<Pikka>I usually chuck em in a bucket with washing up liquid
07:33<Pikka>I say "usually", I've done that once :)
07:33<Pikka>but I should really do it again
07:33<Pikka>this keyboard doesn't bear looking at too closely
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07:34<Eddi|zuHause>now: puzzle time :)
07:34<drac_boy>NGC3982 well have you tried the finnish set btw?
07:34<oskari89>Ah, is there someone wanting to draw?
07:34<oskari89>:)
07:35<Pikka>backspace and left arrow are the tricky ones
07:35<Pikka>different shape, same marking
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07:36<Eddi|zuHause>backspace is double sized
07:36<Pikka>true :)
07:36<heffer>while i'm at it: is anybody here who can help me with my openttd account? i can't retrieve my password because it says "Unknown username / email combination.". But when I try to register both e-mail and username are already in use.
07:37<heffer>looks like i severely messed up what my username was in the first place :D
07:37<Eddi|zuHause>incidentally, that was the first key i placed
07:37<heffer>my email address is heffer@fedoraproject.org
07:37<heffer>username should be heffer as well
07:38<NGC3982>drac_boy: dont think so. ill try it out :)
07:38<Rubidium>looks like you once tried but never validated it
07:39<Rubidium>heffer: try registering again
07:41<heffer>oh okay. now it tells me to merge my account, but also that my account was already merged :D
07:41<heffer>only for the bugs.openttd.org system. i didn't have any account on wiki or bananas.
07:41<Rubidium>let me trash that bit as well then
07:42<Rubidium>you know the old password?
07:43<heffer>i think so :D
07:43<Zuu>Rubidium: Did you have an idea what FS#5151 was due to? Or did you just post some information extracted from the dmp file? (I've tried to reproduce it but didn't succed, perhaps it is something related to his video driver/card?)
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07:44<heffer>Rubidium: worked :D thanks
07:44<Rubidium>Zuu: I have no clue, I just posted stuff from the dmp file. I can't reproduce it
07:44<Zuu>ok
07:44<Rubidium>Zuu: nor could any other dev that tried
07:49<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r24117 /branches/1.2/ (7 files in 5 dirs): [1.2] -Update: some documentation
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07:53<NGC3982> http://i.imgur.com/zSd7S.png
07:53<NGC3982>take a look a the coal mine setup.
07:54<Zuu>Two coal mines?
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07:54<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r24118 /tags/1.2.0/ (9 files in 3 dirs): -Release: 1.2.0
07:54<NGC3982>what (in the general opinion) is the best way to use as few trains as possible, but still obtain decent rating?
07:54<NGC3982>i tried to accomplish a two train load loop (~50% at each station).
07:54<Eddi|zuHause>interesting, i don't even have leftover parts :p
07:54<NGC3982>but that didnt really help me
07:55<Zuu>NGC3982: a train at each station that loads and then move coal a few tiles to a transfer station. Then have one larger train going to the transfer stations and bringing coal to the powerplant?
07:55<Rubidium>heffer/blathijs/Ammler: in ~40 minutes 1.2.0's tarballs will be on the mirrors
07:56<NGC3982>Zuu: i see. ill try it :).
07:56<heffer>Rubidium: thanks
07:56<Zuu>Coal waiting at the transfer stations (that have to be out of range of the coal mines) will not impact the industry rating.
07:57<Zuu>Feeding can also easily be done using trucks that has the benefit of cheaper having a vehicle always loading.
07:57<oskari89>Seems that 1.2.0 is released today? :)
07:57<@Terkhen>seems so
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08:01<NGC3982>Zuu: i guess using trucks from the industry to the feeding station will increase rating a bit more, i guess.
08:01<NGC3982>..i guess.
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08:04<drac_boy>kinda need to go for a while -_-
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08:09<andythenorth>hmm
08:09<Chris_Booth>mhh
08:09<andythenorth>apparently macbooks survive being dropped
08:10<frosch123>one try might not be representative
08:10<andythenorth>I've tried before
08:10<andythenorth>I'd say it's about 50:50
08:10<andythenorth>I dropped one down the stairs - survived
08:10<andythenorth>dropped another off a table - less good
08:11<frosch123>hmm, maybe wood table and stone stairs?
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08:11<andythenorth>another day
08:12<andythenorth>insurance that covers 'I screwed up' probably doesn't extend to 'I tested how breakable it is'
08:12<andythenorth>there is now a lot of disk noise
08:12<andythenorth>this may be a bad sign :
08:12<Eddi|zuHause>my mouse dropped 3m free fall onto wood, survived...
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08:13<Eddi|zuHause>i mean, i dropped it on the stairs, it fell between the stairs, and it dropped to the other stairs one level lower
08:13<oskari89>andythenorth: could you do InnoFreight containers also? http://www.innofreight.com/_innofreight/english/2_produkte/produkte_holz.php
08:13<Eddi|zuHause>and then it disappeared into the furthest corner it could find
08:13<oskari89>XS and XXL.
08:14<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: can you try the same with the cats?
08:14<Eddi|zuHause>they don't usually submit to free fall :p
08:14<Eddi|zuHause>there was a medical survey once, of cat's injuries correlating with the height they dropped from
08:15<frosch123>oskari89: what weird site mixes ft and m in one sentence?
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08:15<Eddi|zuHause>it turned out that the injuries got worse up to the 5th level
08:15<Eddi|zuHause>and from around 7th level and above, there were virtually no injuries anymore
08:16<andythenorth>oskari89: it's an open top container
08:16<andythenorth>?
08:16-!-FLHerne [~francis_h@dsl-217-155-24-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #openttd
08:16<oskari89>Yes, default.
08:16<Eddi|zuHause>because apparently cats have a builtin parachute mode, that kicks in around that height
08:16<SpComb>sounds like destructive testing
08:17<oskari89>:D
08:17<SpComb>dropping cas out of building windows to see what happens
08:17<Eddi|zuHause>i don't think that's what they did :p
08:17<andythenorth>oskari89: so similar to these bulk trailer bodies? http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/2855/body_tipping_4px-light_grey-3_8-bulk-corn_yellow.png
08:17<oskari89>Quite.
08:18<oskari89>They need retexturing, but dimensions are puurrrfect.
08:18<andythenorth>can't change them today
08:18<oskari89>But...
08:18<andythenorth>but changing the colours is easy
08:19<oskari89>I think that on that sheet, there's XS and XXL :P
08:19<oskari89>The - direction is XXL..
08:19<Eddi|zuHause>oskari89: all directions are the same length
08:20<oskari89>Yes, but it looks like there's different sizes :P
08:20<Eddi|zuHause>oskari89: that's an optical illusion
08:21<oskari89>Hmm.
08:22<oskari89>Length of 3271 mm, that's about 3 feet :P
08:22<oskari89>Not, 10' meant.
08:22<oskari89>XS..
08:22<Rhamphoryncus>There's some place in the world where they regular drop cats out of windows. Saw it on tv so it must be true :P
08:23<oskari89>XXL is 20' :P
08:23<frosch123>@calc 25.4*12*10
08:23<@DorpsGek>frosch123: 3048.0
08:23<Rhamphoryncus>I would guess that at 7th and above they've stabilized their orientation and maximized drag
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08:28<oskari89>There's a slight conflict in TTD scaling of containers...
08:28<oskari89>4/8 would be 40' container..
08:29<oskari89>But then, 20' would be 2/8 :P
08:29<@Alberth>oskari89: everything is an optical illusion :p
08:30<@Terkhen>there is a huge conflict in the scaling of TTD everything :P
08:30<@Alberth>Terkhen: nah, reality is wrong :p
08:30<Eddi|zuHause>in my set, 4lu would be 8m
08:30<oskari89>Yes, there should be 40 px wagons :P
08:31<@Terkhen>that too, but reality is usually right with scaling
08:31<Eddi|zuHause>that makes 26 feet, according to google
08:32<Eddi|zuHause>so your 20' container would be 3lu
08:32<Eddi|zuHause>(aka 3/8 of an original vehicle)
08:33<oskari89>Yes, but then it looks ridiculous next to 4/8 40' container :P
08:33<oskari89>When there's 32 px flat where you can fit 2 40' containers.
08:33<Eddi|zuHause>no, that one would be 6lu, if you wanted to have a consistent scale, obviously
08:34<oskari89>25 metres long :P
08:34<oskari89>And there's shorter one, 20 metres long, which is 26 px long..
08:36<oskari89>http://vaunut.org/kuva/45603?tag0=24|Vofa| That's the longer one, Vofa :P
08:36<oskari89>http://vaunut.org/kuva/42333?tag0=24|Vofa|
08:36<oskari89>3x 20' containers can be fitted: http://vaunut.org/kuva/57222?tag0=24|Vofa|
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08:37<oskari89>And the shorter one can have 2x 20' containers: http://vaunut.org/kuva/61672?tt=24&i1=Vof
08:37<NGC3982>i fail to turn inflation of with my console
08:38<NGC3982>set noinflation = true/setting noinflation = true/noinflation = true
08:38<NGC3982>what am i missing? :)
08:38<@Alberth>the advanced settings window :p
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08:38<@Terkhen>bbl
08:39<NGC3982>im playing on a network game, and the only way i have of setting the inflation is in the dedicated server command window.
08:41<@Alberth>did you check that the variable exists?
08:41<NGC3982>http://wiki.openttd.org/Advanced_Settings/Economy#Inflation tells me: "inflation = true/false"
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08:41<NGC3982>http://wiki.openttd.org/Disable_inflation tells me: "noinflation = true"
08:42<NGC3982>though, i managed to find it according to version.
08:42<@Alberth>never trust a wiki page, check in the online help :)
08:42<NGC3982>i though that was the online help ;_;
08:42<@planetmaker>he. Yes
08:49<oskari89>Seems that 20' containers are best to be compromised to 10 px length, between 3 and 4/8 :P
08:49<oskari89>And 40' containers remain on that 4/8 :P
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08:53<andythenorth>a 40' container in BANDIT would be closer to 6/8 probably
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08:53<oskari89>Well, but then you can't fit two of those in 32 px wagon :P
08:53<oskari89>Like you can do in reality :P
08:54<andythenorth>really? :o
08:54<oskari89>:D
08:55<andythenorth>2 40' containers is long
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08:55<oskari89>That long: http://vaunut.org/kuva/45603?tag0=24|Vofa|
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08:56<andythenorth>two 40' would be long
08:56<andythenorth>http://people.hofstra.edu/geotrans/eng/ch3en/conc3en/doublestackrail.html
08:56<andythenorth>60' seems a more common length for container cars
08:58<oskari89>The shorter version Vof is 60' long flat wagon :P
08:58<oskari89>And that is 6/8 :P
08:59<andythenorth>about right
08:59<andythenorth>approx 2' per pixel is about the closes you want to get to an actual scale
08:59<andythenorth>+t
08:59<oskari89>Yes.
09:00<frosch123>@topic set 1 1.2.0
09:00-!-DorpsGek changed the topic of #openttd to: 1.2.0 | Website: *.openttd.org (translator: translator, server list: servers, wiki: wiki, patches & bug-reports: bugs, revision log: vcs, release info: finger) | Don't ask to ask, just ask | 'Latest' is not a valid version, ever | English only
09:00<oskari89>Finally! :)
09:00<andythenorth>awesome
09:00<andythenorth>now loads of new features can be worked on :D
09:00<andythenorth>right...?
09:01<TrueBrain>like? :D
09:01<oskari89>Chunnel :D
09:01<andythenorth>newgrf smoke
09:01<frosch123>TrueBrain: wrong question to the wrong guy
09:01*andythenorth only has one request atm
09:01<frosch123>:p
09:01<oskari89>Signals on bridges :)
09:01<andythenorth>seriously, only one request
09:01<oskari89>Custom Bridgeheads?
09:01<andythenorth>yeah, no
09:02<andythenorth>it was nice to hold back 1.2.0 until after the FIRS release
09:02<andythenorth>:P
09:02<TrueBrain>andythenorth: for you, always
09:02<andythenorth>:)
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09:03<andythenorth>this....
09:03<andythenorth>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/2825/coaster_gen_1.png
09:03<andythenorth>....lacks smoke ;)
09:03<oskari89>What is next "trunk-going" major feature by the way?
09:04<TrueBrain>tempted to say: your mom
09:04<TrueBrain>but not sure if this channel is up for those jokes
09:04*andythenorth is
09:04<@planetmaker>bad joke ;-)
09:04<andythenorth>as long as it doesn't become #tycoon :P
09:04<TrueBrain>slippery slope :P
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09:04<@planetmaker>oskari89, depends on what gets written
09:05<frosch123>i would think the next change to trunk is quite likely a update to the afrikaans translation
09:05<@planetmaker>:-)
09:05<TrueBrain>5 hours to proof it wrong
09:06<frosch123>TrueBrain: breaking wt3 is unfair
09:06<TrueBrain>that is why you have 5 hours
09:07<frosch123>i like how the miners in widelands eat bigmacs
09:08<Eddi|zuHause>an important feature missing from widelands is distributing the experienced workers
09:08<andythenorth>so...biggest problem with a 'proper' newgrf smoke spec:
09:08<andythenorth>- when to trigger the cb
09:08<andythenorth>some of you will want every fricking tick :P
09:08<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: works since about a year
09:09<frosch123>i am playing with a bzr checkout due to that reason :)
09:09<frosch123>alternatively play atlanteans
09:09<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: i mean evicting an experienced worker from an existing mine, so he goes to another mine that needs a worker
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09:09<Eddi|zuHause>without tearing down the mine in the process
09:10<andythenorth>also vehicles are going to need storage, or an EV counter, per EV
09:10<andythenorth>or a cb fired by the EV
09:10<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: apparently "they have a patch for that", for two years already...
09:11<TrueBrain>sounds like peter :D
09:11<andythenorth>currently all I have to do is set a prop and ottd handles all EV stuff
09:11<andythenorth>ottd also handles all the calculations wrt acceleration, etc
09:11<andythenorth>moving that into each newgrf is not hard I guess
09:12<andythenorth>newgrf will also need to access the advanced setting for smoke amount
09:12<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: that's normal; it is probably not up to the coding style
09:12<andythenorth>and in the context of, e.g. sparks, or other effects, how should the advanced setting be interpreted?
09:13<oskari89>When i'm opening 1.2.0 installer (Win 64-bit) the installer shows "Wecome to the OpenTTD 1.2.0${APPV_EXTRA} 64-bit for Windows (etc...)
09:13<oskari89>What's that ${APPV_EXTRA} ?
09:14<@Alberth>Wecome?
09:14<oskari89>*Welcome
09:17<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: https://bugs.launchpad.net/widelands/+bug/714036
09:17<frosch123>oskari89: it's something which you cannot test with a rc release :p
09:18<Eddi|zuHause>release a 1.2.0.1!! :)
09:19<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: no, it's a testcase of how many will actually notice it
09:19<Eddi|zuHause>emergency-fix: installer version display
09:19<V453000>remember to eat something XD
09:19<Eddi|zuHause>V453000: did you play civ4 recently? :p
09:19<V453000>no I never played that ever
09:20<NGC3982>oh god yes, civilization
09:20<Eddi|zuHause>V453000: it has "get some snacks" (or similar) as one of the "tips" :)
09:20<NGC3982>the only game that might compete with this one.
09:21<V453000>oh :D
09:21<V453000>well once when my girlfiend was on a 2day trip, I went to a store, bought a bread, and played openttd 2 days stright, only with bread and drinks
09:21<V453000>^^
09:22<Mazur>:-)
09:22<V453000>resulted in 2666 trains game :P
09:22<NGC3982>sweet jesus
09:22*NGC3982 usually eats more when playing.
09:25<Zuu>hehe, I've sometimes had my lunch at 9 pm or so due to playing OpenTTD. :-)
09:25<@planetmaker>:-)
09:26-!-roboboy [~robotboy@CPE-58-173-43-55.nxzp1.ken.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
09:36<@planetmaker>Ammler, KenjiE20 we have a twitter plugin for supybot... is that available somehow?
09:37<KenjiE20>yes, is mine, called supytweet, is on sf
09:37<@planetmaker>got a link. We might want it for openttd, too
09:37<KenjiE20>http://sourceforge.net/projects/supytweet/?source=directory
09:38<Mazur>Zuu? 9:00 pm? Try 9:00 AM.
09:39<@planetmaker>ty, KenjiE20
09:39<Mazur>For last days' lunch.
09:39<@planetmaker>TrueBrain, would that plugin make then sense for Dorpsgek?
09:40<TrueBrain>planetmaker: depends on you guys :D
09:40<@planetmaker>you mean whether it'll get used?
09:40<TrueBrain>or if you want to do what glx suggested
09:40<@planetmaker>probably missed that..
09:41<@planetmaker>but tweeting the whole news doesn't work really
09:41<TrueBrain>talking in 2 channels at once; I love it :D
09:41<@planetmaker>yeah :-P
09:44<Mazur>Especially when one is a private chat with a frisky woman.....
09:45<TrueBrain>tmi
09:51<Zuu>Mazur: I can't recall being up that long. 5-6 am, I know but 9 am I can't remember.
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09:54<Eddi|zuHause>Mazur: odds are that it's a guy anyway...
09:58<@Terkhen>Eddi|zuHause: the hint in civ4 was "Snacks are good in moderation" IIRC
09:58<@Terkhen>just in case someone spends a night or two playing and eating snacks, I guess
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10:06<__ln__>anyway, congrats to the new german/finnish F1 winner
10:07-!-snack2 [~nn@dsl-prvbrasgw1-fe05dc00-37.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit []
10:07<Mazur>Eddi|zuHause, odds on, yes, but I had my ways of finding out, and I've met several afterwards at IRC parties. Most definately women. :-)
10:08<Rhamphoryncus>I find "all the women on the internet are really men" reflects more on the speaker than on men pretending to be women
10:15-!-drac_boy [~drac_boy@modemcable085.125-161-184.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #openttd
10:15<drac_boy>hi
10:17<TrueBrain>who uses finger.openttd.org/versions.txt? Anyone any clue? :P
10:17<frosch123>Zuu: ^^ ?
10:19<Zuu>I do
10:19<TrueBrain>I want to extend the format with 1 column
10:19<TrueBrain>would that hurt your tool(s)?
10:20<Zuu>I don't think so, I'll take a look. (it is only one pice of php code that reads it)
10:20<TrueBrain>good; I want to extend it with a human readable column
10:20<TrueBrain>so I can be a bit more verbose in what a verison is about :P
10:21<Zuu>Sounds good
10:21<TrueBrain>hmm
10:21<TrueBrain>I just noticed I cant do that
10:21<TrueBrain>dammit
10:21<TrueBrain>our own tools would break horribly :(
10:23<TrueBrain>I need another solution :(
10:23<heffer>xml ftw :)
10:23<TrueBrain>tempted to reply with: @kick heffer ftw
10:23<heffer>:P
10:24<Zuu>The OTTDAU server code uses explode(..) and then refering to the columns by index. So an additional column at the end shouldn't break anything there.
10:24<heffer>seems you have a strong aversion to xml
10:25<TrueBrain>I have a strong issue with users calling random terms because it is a buzz-word
10:25<TrueBrain>it is not helping anyone
10:25<heffer>i was just joking
10:25<TrueBrain>Zuu: good to know; I will see if I can modify our tools; will let you know if I do change anything :)
10:25<frosch123>TrueBrain: those terms are quite useful to stop a discussion with non-technicans
10:26<TrueBrain>frosch123: or more the issue, they are often yelled by non-techies :)
10:26<frosch123>if they ask how the ouput will look like, answering "we just use xml" solves the conversation quite fast
10:26<heffer>next time tell them you use the latest version of ASCII
10:26*drac_boy would had just mentioned ps instead
10:27<TrueBrain>heffer: now that would be a good joke, yes
10:27<Rubidium>csv is much better
10:27<Rubidium>especially as it's rarely *comma* separated
10:27<frosch123>oh, i was already asked at work how to transcode ascii into uf8
10:27-!-Chris_Booth [~chatzilla@host81-129-125-202.range81-129.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
10:27<frosch123>+t
10:27<TrueBrain>frosch123: I hope you suggested a 100 line script to do that
10:28<TrueBrain>or refered to the ID 10-T form?
10:28<heffer>and then asked them if all their systems were capable of reading ANSI X3.4-1968
10:29<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: odds are they meant the local 8bit extension codepage they use (probably 1252)
10:29<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: no, i asked back whether there are umlauts etc
10:29<andythenorth>xml is still a buzz word? I thought that moment had passed some while back :o
10:30<heffer>now everyone wants json
10:30<andythenorth>json is a valid buzzword
10:30<heffer>it's the new xml, without the bloat :D
10:30<Eddi|zuHause>exactly. it's actually _readable_!
10:30<andythenorth>looks like objects to me :P
10:30<heffer>even Ajax is out. it's REST nowadays
10:30<TrueBrain>REST is an URL schema ..
10:30<@planetmaker>oh, hi, heffer. Just to tell you: OpenGFX 0.4.4 has a new build target clean-gfx. Use that, if you want to build the pngs from scratch. maintainer-clean will screw your md5 verify check
10:30<TrueBrain>AJAX is not
10:31*andythenorth has accidentally diverted TrueBrain from doing useful things :P
10:31<andythenorth>oops
10:31<TrueBrain>andythenorth: yup
10:31<andythenorth>sorry
10:31<TrueBrain>I hate you now
10:31<TrueBrain>you do understand that right?
10:31<heffer>TrueBrain: tell that to the buzzword buzzers
10:31<heffer>:D
10:31<andythenorth>truebrain good time to mention a bananas rewrite?
10:31<heffer>planetmaker: thanks for the info
10:31<TrueBrain>http://www-test.openttd.org/ <- also fine?
10:32<andythenorth>wfm
10:32<Zuu>TrueBrain: I get an asian character
10:32<TrueBrain>Zuu: and you dont think that is intentional?
10:33<Zuu>I guess it is intended
10:33-!-frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590f50f2.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
10:33<TrueBrain>:D
10:33<andythenorth>hmm
10:33<andythenorth>something changed :P
10:33<__ln__>what's wrong with asian characters? lieutenant Sulu was ok in my opinion.
10:33<andythenorth>secondary nav?
10:33<heffer>openttd website lvl: asian
10:33<Zuu>But, I don't read any asaian language, so I can't say if it is a correct one or not. But it looks good.
10:33<TrueBrain>andythenorth: among others
10:33<TrueBrain>Zuu: it was to show UTF-8 is handled correctly ;)
10:33<NGC3982>i wonder.
10:33<Zuu>Oh, and there is a new menu at the top :-)
10:33<andythenorth>what's the site written in btw?
10:33<TrueBrain>Python, using Django framework
10:34<TrueBrain>and that is the second major change Zuu ;)
10:34<Zuu>How many more are there to find?
10:34<NGC3982>i feel almost compelled to learn the specific language and the basis of emulation, just to help this god damned community make a fantastic android version on openttd.
10:34<heffer>looks like i don't have the corrent fonts installed. i see the UTF-8 placeholder
10:34<NGC3982>i had this dream about playing it smoothly on a galaxy tab.
10:34<TrueBrain>heffer: you are not hte only one; I seem to have picked an UTF-8 char that is uncommon :P
10:35<Eddi|zuHause>TrueBrain: just odd that the menu bar disappears when you click "online content" or "translator" :p
10:35<TrueBrain>I also have no clue how I got it, asI just randomly picked on :P
10:35<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause: is it really?
10:35<heffer>usually my system should prompt me to install the correct font
10:35<TrueBrain>Zuu: one more
10:35-!-frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590f50f2.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd
10:35<Eddi|zuHause>TrueBrain: it stays when you click server
10:35<andythenorth>the current menu from bananas will become secondary nav too?
10:35<frosch123>hmm, X decided to restart :s
10:35<TrueBrain>poor frosch123
10:35<heffer>you could try the runes if you like: http://www.w3.org/2001/06/utf-8-test/UTF-8-demo.html
10:36<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause: and still you dont see what changes when you click those links? :)
10:36*andythenorth would help with bananas if there was any way to test it
10:36<TrueBrain>in due time andythenorth
10:36<Eddi|zuHause>TrueBrain: i didn't say it's wrong
10:36<Eddi|zuHause>TrueBrain: i said it's odd
10:36*andythenorth would help with the website if he knew how
10:36<Zuu>TrueBrain: The servers page got an update?
10:36*andythenorth is completely unscared of python web frameworks
10:36<TrueBrain>Zuu: does it show? :P
10:36<heffer>it's a fun hack to do. just copy paste an uncommon utf char into irc and all users that have PackageKit font installer enabled will be prompted to install a font
10:37<andythenorth>I can edit the site
10:37<andythenorth>I don't know how to get a local test instance running
10:38<TrueBrain>andythenorth: of the current BaNaNaS, nobody knows :D
10:38<andythenorth>gah
10:38<andythenorth>that's why my rewrite got stalled :P
10:38<TrueBrain>its not a rewrite then :P
10:38<andythenorth>and starting from scratch with no clue was a bit much
10:38<Zuu>TrueBrain: I can see it, so I guess it shows. Nice filtering feature.
10:39<TrueBrain>tnx; Xaroth_'s work :P
10:39<Zuu>Oh
10:39<FLHerne>How do I get back to the main page from BaNaNaS pages?
10:39<TrueBrain>by typing in the URL :D
10:40<andythenorth>ha
10:40<andythenorth>the logo goes to bananas in that context
10:40<andythenorth>is the logo href /
10:40<FLHerne>Is the top menu-bar thing supposed to exist everywhere?
10:40<andythenorth>appears to be /[lang]
10:40<andythenorth>at a guess
10:40<TrueBrain>on www-test, ofc
10:41<andythenorth>hmm
10:41*andythenorth looks for an equivalent of standard_template or such
10:41<andythenorth>base.html
10:42<andythenorth>django syntax is cute
10:42<Zuu>Nice that the average number of clients per server is written at the top as a reminder to anyone wanting to start a server. :-)
10:42<andythenorth>so the openttd logo should always go to main site imo
10:43<andythenorth>but I guess it does have some nice bananas on it :P
10:43<frosch123>only a single server is running stable :p
10:43<TrueBrain>andythenorth: I disagree; but that is mostly because they ae in their own subdomain
10:43<andythenorth>btw it's been bugging me for months that the logo background is broken
10:43<TrueBrain>yeah
10:43<TrueBrain>check www-test
10:43<TrueBrain>one of the first things I fixed :P
10:43<TrueBrain>off by one is a biatch
10:44<andythenorth>\o/
10:44<FLHerne>On current and www-test sites, the smaller text for the right-hand buttons is rendered over the icons for me
10:44<TrueBrain>screenshot or it didnt happen
10:44<Zuu>I never noticed the logo background issue, but now I will. :-)
10:44<TrueBrain>and ofc browser + OS
10:44<FLHerne>I assume this should be to their right, below the large text?
10:44<TrueBrain>Zuu: MWHAHAHAHAHAHAHA :P
10:44<andythenorth>FLHerne: you have IE 7 or 8
10:44<andythenorth>if you have IE 6 you should leave now
10:45<TrueBrain>tbh, if you have IE, you should leave now :D :P
10:45<TrueBrain>that said, openttd.org renders fine on IE5.5 even; only issue is with Safari
10:45<andythenorth>only if you're centralised corporate IT policy allows you to leave :P
10:45<TrueBrain>which is unsolvable
10:45<FLHerne>No, Opera 11.62, Linux version :P
10:45<TrueBrain>owh, and Opera
10:45<TrueBrain>lol
10:45<TrueBrain>forgot people still use it
10:45<andythenorth>what's the safari issue?
10:45<TrueBrain>Opera has a bug in how they handle something
10:45<TrueBrain>100% against w3c, and it is the ONLY browser who does it like this
10:45<andythenorth>opera is a bug?
10:46<TrueBrain>webkit, khtml, ..... all dont
10:46<TrueBrain>and there is no workaround :(
10:46<FLHerne>IE is useless, Chromium doesn't have the features.
10:46<TrueBrain>safari renders some margins wrong
10:46<TrueBrain>so there is a line somewhere .. believe at the bottom
10:46<FLHerne>I like the built-in stuff, like this IRC client :P
10:47<andythenorth>nothing obviously wrong for me
10:47<TrueBrain>good :D
10:47<TrueBrain>but hell, you can even open the webpage in elinks
10:47*drac_boy prefers low resource web browser .. and just a browser at that
10:47<drac_boy>heh :)
10:48<andythenorth>ho
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10:48<Zuu>Apart from sometimes going to the wrong page when clicking on links, I like opera mini. ^^ Though, it has the largest benefit on small screen phones. Or larger smart phones its just tiny things like zooming in when you click near two links that make it useful.
10:48<andythenorth>developers have email in public :o
10:48<andythenorth>do developers get email from those?
10:48<FLHerne>drac_boy: I use Dillo on old things :P
10:48<drac_boy>FLHerne I prefer something that'll actually do full html
10:48<FLHerne>Very low resource :D
10:48<TrueBrain>andythenorth: isnt that the intension?
10:49<andythenorth>well...it would be a dumb move otherwise :P
10:49<TrueBrain>I dont really understand the question here :D
10:49<FLHerne>drac_boy: Dillo's OK with most things except SSL, actually
10:49*andythenorth imagines 47,000 emails requesting underground metro
10:49<TrueBrain>people in general behave
10:49<andythenorth>and 28 per day offering to renew or transfer the domain
10:49<TrueBrain>remember our emails are on the frontpage for 4 years now
10:49<drac_boy>FLHerne and what about frames or document.write() tho?
10:49<drac_boy>andythenorth heh
10:50<TrueBrain>how do you like the speed of the website btw? :P
10:50<TrueBrain>fully uses etag
10:50<TrueBrain>instant pages 99% of the time :P
10:50<andythenorth>it's fast for me
10:51<FLHerne>drac_boy: I'm not a web designer, so I'm not quite sure what they are :P
10:51<Zuu>fast also here
10:51<FLHerne>All I know is that it renders most sites I use fine
10:52<TrueBrain>I love client-side-caching :)
10:52<drac_boy>FLHerne well I'm not much of one, but I do do occassional webpages from time to time, usually for someone else
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10:58<drac_boy>FLHerne just wondering, does dillo support svg pictures?
10:59<andythenorth>so...making the current smoke generation rules available to newgrfs -> bad idea?
10:59<andythenorth>newgrfs should provide their own?
11:00-!-morph` [~morph`@78.84.121.50] has joined #openttd
11:00<andythenorth>[if a newgrf depends on current rules (steam, diesel, sparks) it will prevent changes to ottd defaults in future)
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11:01<drac_boy>andythenorth what if you made it optional, like if the newgrf does not describe any it'll use default
11:02<drac_boy>just as much as if theres no track grf it'll use default track. you know
11:03<drac_boy>anyway need to go now sorry :-s
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11:07<Zuu>drac_boy> FLHerne just wondering, does dillo support svg pictures? <-------- SVG in a text-based browser‽
11:07<FLHerne>Dillo isn't text-based though...
11:08<Zuu>Oh
11:08<FLHerne>But no, it doesn't support SVG :-(
11:08<FLHerne>However...drac_boy>FLHerne and what about frames...
11:08<FLHerne>It does use frames, which is good :-)
11:10<FLHerne>The memory useage is excellent, too: http://www.dillo.org/memory.html
11:12<frosch123>you mean you do not have to automatically restart it every 4 hours due to memory leakage?
11:13<FLHerne>The laptop I run it one crashes more often than that anyway, so I wouldn't know :p
11:16<Eddi|zuHause><Zuu> I never noticed the logo background issue, but now I will. :-) <-- it's like that HIMYM episode with "sound of glass breaking" :)
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11:38<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: how would CETS trigger effect vehicle generation? Would you replicate existing ottd algorithms in newgrf? Or do you have your own in mind?
11:38<andythenorth>[existing are in vehicle.cpp]
11:38<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: i have not thought about effect vehicles yet
11:39<andythenorth>is there anything broken about current smoke that you would want to fix in newgrf?
11:39<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: most broken is a potential 3rd rail effect
11:40<andythenorth>that's the one where it strikes me you might need more bounding box info
11:40<andythenorth>unless there's a nice hack
11:40<Eddi|zuHause>the effect vehicle has an own bounding box, obviously
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11:41<andythenorth>you'd want to draw sparks behind and in front of the rail vehicle though?
11:41<andythenorth>at least in 32bpp, this starts to matter
11:41<Eddi|zuHause>yes. by setting the y offset
11:42<andythenorth>and the sprite sorter figures it out?
11:42<Eddi|zuHause>it should just work (tm)
11:42<Eddi|zuHause>x offset: move along vehicle, y offset: move ortoghonal to vehicle, z offset: move vertical
11:43<Eddi|zuHause>effect vehicles could have running sound, so a spark actually... sparks :p
11:43<andythenorth>I can see a case for something drawn at roofline and behind a vehicle
11:44<andythenorth>no b-box height for vehicles?
11:44<andythenorth>discard any such case :P
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11:44<Eddi|zuHause>no, bounding boxes may be only varied in length
11:45<Eddi|zuHause>not width or height
11:45<andythenorth>such cases look like overkill to me
11:45<andythenorth>but that's how hysterical raisins get baked in
11:46<Eddi|zuHause>what's "wrong" with the current smoke is that there should additionally be coming steam from the sides :)
11:46<Eddi|zuHause>especially at low speeds
11:48<andythenorth>so you need custom EVs for that
11:49<NGC3982>im pulling goods with trucks to a small town. suddenly the town stops accepting goods. this is simply because of my lame rating, yes?
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11:52<Eddi|zuHause>NGC3982: no. rating has nothing to do with it
11:53<NGC3982>oh
11:53<NGC3982>what am i missing, then? :)
11:53<Eddi|zuHause>NGC3982: sometimes the town replaces buildings. you need at least 3 goods-accepting buildings near your station
11:53<NGC3982>ah, i see.
11:54<NGC3982>yes, i can see that. the town has down-graded one of the three goods-accepting buildings.
11:54<andythenorth>xiong: so I can close? http://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/3772
11:55<NGC3982>Eddi|zuHause: thanks.
11:55<Eddi|zuHause>NGC3982: you can get larger towns by providing frequent service (e.g. a bus circling several stations)
11:55<NGC3982>Eddi|zuHause: i see. at first hand, i added two bus stations on each side of town.
11:56<NGC3982>..and there the goods-notice came
11:56<NGC3982>neat!
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12:10<andythenorth>FIRS bug count is 16
12:10<andythenorth>can you increase it?
12:11<andythenorth>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/firs/issues
12:13<andythenorth>15
12:13*andythenorth rejected one
12:14<andythenorth>14
12:16<andythenorth>is this a valid issue?
12:16<andythenorth>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/1564
12:16<andythenorth>planetmaker: care about this still? ^
12:17<Eddi|zuHause>maybe you can make a "smaller layout" economy
12:17<andythenorth>or just smaller layouts for the problem industries...
12:18*andythenorth has a rule, no new features while there are open bugs :P
12:18<SpComb>1) no bugs 2) write new features 3) new bugs 4) fix bugs 5) repeat
12:19<Eddi|zuHause>it's not really a bug, more like a feature request
12:19<Eddi|zuHause>declare it as feature request, and make it depend on economies
12:21<andythenorth>bug closure by reclassification ;)
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12:41<@Terkhen>wow, it seems that a lot of people tests the RCs
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12:49<oskari89>How many downloads for all 1.2 RC's?
12:50<frosch123>Terkhen: why?
12:51<frosch123>oskari89: http://www.openttd.org/stats sum yourself
12:57<@Terkhen>I was just joking about this: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=1008274#p1008274
12:57<@Terkhen>:P
13:00<andythenorth>Terkhen: mind if I close this? I'm not sure it matters much in the big scheme of things :)
13:00<andythenorth>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/2989
13:01<FLHerne>Out of interest, why did only 144 people download 0.6.1, but 20407 people download 0.6.2?
13:01<FLHerne>Thats ~200x more...
13:03<Eddi|zuHause>maybe the counter just doesn't go that far back
13:04<FLHerne>Is it possible to download old releases then?
13:04<FLHerne>Otherwise it would show 0, surely?
13:05*andythenorth tries to decide if he likes 'ships avoid each other' patch
13:05<Eddi|zuHause>sure it is
13:05<frosch123>Terkhen: yeah, but you cannot test that with a rc :p
13:05<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: i'm pretty sure i won't.
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13:06<Eddi|zuHause>imho it's fine that ships and aircraft can go through each other in "open space"
13:06<Eddi|zuHause>but on harbors/airports, they should be separated
13:06<andythenorth>I like the idea of 'turn to avoid'
13:06<andythenorth>I don't like the idea of having to place n extra bouys :P
13:07<Eddi|zuHause>that can be done by simple pathfinder penalty
13:07<Eddi|zuHause>for "ship is on tile"
13:07<andythenorth>nor can I imagine it being lightweight on battery use :P
13:07<andythenorth>hmm
13:07<Eddi|zuHause>without preventing the ships to go over each other
13:07-!-HerzogDeXtEr [~Flex@i59F6AD14.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
13:07<Eddi|zuHause>there was once a patch like this for road vehicles
13:07-!-HerzogDeXtEr [~Flex@i59F6AD14.versanet.de] has joined #openttd
13:07<andythenorth>I have no problem with ships passing through each other
13:08<Eddi|zuHause>not sure why it was not accepted
13:08<Eddi|zuHause>just let ships make a "reservation" like trains
13:08*andythenorth wishes all art was drawn at the 2x zoom level
13:08<Eddi|zuHause>then the pathfinder can take care of the separation
13:08<Eddi|zuHause>without any significant performance hit
13:09<andythenorth>sounds good
13:11<andythenorth>on my screen, for my eyes, 1.6x zoom would be ideal :P
13:12<@Terkhen>frosch123: so that bug is not triggered with the installer for RCs?
13:13<@Terkhen>andythenorth: I don't mind, it's something that would be nice to have but not a necessity
13:13<andythenorth>I closed it :)
13:13<frosch123>Terkhen: it's the variable that is set to "-RC4" in RC4
13:13<@Terkhen>oh, I see :)
13:13<frosch123>in the release we made the mistake to delete that var, instead of assigning ""
13:14<@Terkhen>I take back what I said then
13:16<andythenorth>Terkhen: interested in fixing this? http://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/3364
13:17<@Terkhen>andythenorth: should be trivial, but I have no grf development environment ATM
13:17<andythenorth>k
13:17<andythenorth>if you know what the issue is, I could fix with your instruction
13:18*andythenorth is aiming for 'bug-zero'
13:18<andythenorth>anyone can replicate this? http://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/3588
13:19<@Terkhen>andythenorth: I'm reinstalling my VM
13:19<@Terkhen>I'll do it in a few hours
13:20<andythenorth>I can assign it to you and put in 0.7.3? :)
13:20<Rhamphoryncus>I'd like to define shipping lanes between buoys and have ships follow that. That'd eliminate performance issues of the pathfinding, let them pass on the right, and could even allow for overtaking like a RV
13:23<@Terkhen>ok
13:23<Rhamphoryncus>andythenorth: yup, happens for me too
13:24<andythenorth>grr
13:24<andythenorth>:)
13:25<andythenorth>wonder what causes it :o
13:26<Rhamphoryncus>maybe openttd changes how it indicated mapgen vs gameplay?
13:28<andythenorth>that would break spec :P
13:28<andythenorth>more likely an obiwan, or a wrong byte or something in the parameters :)
13:28*andythenorth rejects another bug
13:28<andythenorth>9 left :)
13:29<Rhamphoryncus>I'm going to poke at it
13:29<andythenorth>thanks :)
13:30<andythenorth>anybody care to poke at the station name bugs?
13:30<andythenorth>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/2497
13:30<andythenorth>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/3558
13:30<andythenorth>might be interesting
13:33<Rhamphoryncus>Okay, where's the voodoo for handling parameters?
13:33<andythenorth>brb
13:34<andythenorth>parameters.pnml
13:34<andythenorth>?
13:35<andythenorth>and then scattered through other templates
13:35<andythenorth>e.g check_availability.pnml
13:35<Rhamphoryncus>Got thrown off because my initial grep only found the nfo language files
13:36-!-oskari892 [~oskari89@213-186-253-165.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined #openttd
13:36<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: the second one rather sounds like "messed with GRFs"... is that reproduceable?
13:37<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: and the first one, i suppose the game checks for same string-id
13:37<Eddi|zuHause>not whether they have the same content
13:38<oskari892>Nice windows!
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13:39<oskari892>Crashed just before i tried to save about 4 hours of work with certain flat wagon :P
13:39<andythenorth>bah
13:40<andythenorth>so now I have to ask yukonrob for a savegame from months ago, get his particular rev of ottd, compile it, track down exact versions of all his grfs :(
13:40<andythenorth>and I still don't know where the savegame flag for 'messed with newgrfs is' :P
13:40-!-oskari89 [~oskari89@213-186-253-165.bb.dnainternet.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
13:41<frosch123>do all of your station names include the STRING code?
13:41<andythenorth>no idea
13:41<andythenorth>let's see
13:42*andythenorth wonders where station names are defined
13:42<frosch123>in your langfile for sure :p
13:42-!-flaa [~flaa@089-101-093077.ntlworld.ie] has joined #openttd
13:43<andythenorth>what am I looking for? They're all "{STRING} Refinery" etc
13:43<frosch123>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/firs/repository/entry/lang/english.lng#L153
13:43<frosch123>well, just try them in game
13:44<Eddi|zuHause>oskari892: that's why you autosave every few minutes
13:44<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: and in all the translations?
13:44*andythenorth wonders what uses 'DEPOT'
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: translators * r24119 /trunk/src/lang/afrikaans.txt:
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: afrikaans - 114 changes by telanus
13:45<frosch123>nothing :p
13:45<TrueBrain>is that really the first commit in trunk? :P
13:46<frosch123>today?
13:46<TrueBrain>your memory so bad frosch123? :)
13:46<andythenorth>yes all contain {STRING}
13:46<andythenorth>'Woods' is a built-in name, right?
13:46<andythenorth>so it's valid?
13:47<frosch123>TrueBrain: apparently, yes :)
13:47<andythenorth>e.g. 'Woods' at a refinery isn't wrong, it's just ottd supplying a name because 'refinery' is already used
13:48<andythenorth>?
13:49<Eddi|zuHause>quite likely
13:50<Eddi|zuHause>in the ancient version that i had, "refinery" was also used for some food thingies
13:50<Eddi|zuHause>the sugar mill, i suppose
13:51<andythenorth>yup
13:51<andythenorth>just checked that
13:51<andythenorth>so if he lost town part of station name, he screwed with his game?
13:52<andythenorth>I have not been able to replicate it
13:52<andythenorth>much as I'd like to spend the rest of my life randomly building stations :P
13:52<andythenorth>we need a chaos monkey for testing
13:52<andythenorth>NoGo chaos monkey?
13:53<andythenorth>http://www.folklore.org/StoryView.py?project=Macintosh&story=Monkey_Lives.txt
13:56<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: request a savegame, or close it as unreproduceable
13:56<andythenorth>did that
13:56<andythenorth>thanks :)
13:57<andythenorth>8 bugs
13:57<SpComb>fuzzing
13:57<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: why do you fix the bugs _after_ you made a release? :)
13:58<andythenorth>going to speed up releasing
13:58<andythenorth>releases are motivating
13:58<SpComb>10 releases to production a day
13:59<andythenorth>SpComb: do you have a chaos monkey? Sounds like Netflix style
13:59-!-Devroush [~dennis@178-119-153-135.access.telenet.be] has quit []
13:59<andythenorth>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/2497 <- I can fix simply by enforcing a unique name per industry
14:00<andythenorth>is it really a valid bug? Or a feature request?
14:00<SpComb>http://www.slideshare.net/jallspaw/10-deploys-per-day-dev-and-ops-cooperation-at-flickr
14:00*telanus finally got rid of one of the ugliest Afrikaans mistranslations
14:00<andythenorth>DevOps!
14:00<andythenorth>where's Borat? :)
14:00<Rhamphoryncus>andythenorth: bad news. Looks like that option never worked. nmlc was using the wrong variable before and when that got fixed..
14:01<andythenorth>k
14:01<Rhamphoryncus>the fix: https://bitbucket.org/OpenTTD/nml/changeset/1abb74969e0c
14:01<Rhamphoryncus>_game_mode is set long before the industries are created
14:01<andythenorth>ye
14:01<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: i think that's purely a translation issue
14:02<Rhamphoryncus>Is there another way of checking for mapgen completion?
14:02<Eddi|zuHause>when two english strings have the same content
14:03<andythenorth>ah
14:03<andythenorth>that makes sense
14:03<andythenorth>I can't replicate two stations with same name in english
14:03<andythenorth>game forbids it
14:03<Rhamphoryncus>I've seen duplicate names lots
14:03<andythenorth>proof? :)
14:03*FLHerne is confused by GNU patch
14:03<andythenorth>even for case of multiple industries of same type, I can't get ottd to duplicate station names
14:03<andythenorth>(per town)
14:04<Rhamphoryncus>They're a mix of manually named and automatically named stations
14:04<Rhamphoryncus>I'll try to duplicate it
14:04<andythenorth>issue is here if you can http://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/2497
14:04<Eddi|zuHause>Rhamphoryncus: a manual name can be the same as an automatic name
14:04<Eddi|zuHause>that's not the issue
14:04<Rhamphoryncus>oh :)
14:04<FLHerne>It keeps leaving off the last } and then of course I get compiler errors :-(
14:05<Eddi|zuHause>the issue is two automatically generated strings
14:05<Eddi|zuHause>the game cannot compare the content of the strings
14:05<Eddi|zuHause>because it changes with translations
14:05<Eddi|zuHause>so it can only compare the stringid
14:05<andythenorth>I can't replicate the issue, no savegame provided, no screenshots
14:05<Eddi|zuHause>and when two stringids have the same content
14:05<andythenorth>might reject it
14:05<Eddi|zuHause>then the names will be duplicate
14:06<Eddi|zuHause>maybe they're only duplicate in one language, but not the others
14:06<Eddi|zuHause>i fixed that once for the german translation
14:06<Eddi|zuHause>of FIRS
14:06*Rhamphoryncus places a bus station, gets "XXX Forge", renames it to "XXX", places a second bus station, gets "XXX" again
14:06<Eddi|zuHause>where the same content was repeated
14:07<andythenorth>maybe the existing lang script should diff for duplicates
14:07<andythenorth>meh
14:08<Eddi|zuHause>well, it's perfectly valid to have duplicates for anything other than station names :)
14:08<Rhamphoryncus>Vehicle groups?
14:08<Rhamphoryncus>I constantly hit that
14:08<Eddi|zuHause>Rhamphoryncus: i meant NewGRF translations. not ingame strings
14:08<andythenorth>oh I can replicate
14:08<Rhamphoryncus>oh
14:08<andythenorth>it does happen for different industry types
14:09<andythenorth>so industry need to enforce unique names per type
14:09<andythenorth>'Coal Mine' rather than 'Mines'
14:09<andythenorth>'Sugar Refinery' rather than 'Refinery'
14:09<andythenorth>seems like it would be better for game to just use the industry name in that case :P
14:10<andythenorth>hmm
14:10<andythenorth>I could nml the industry name in as a substring
14:10<andythenorth>what's desired?
14:10<andythenorth>I don't really give a crap about station names :)
14:11<andythenorth>but I am happy to sort out the code (and english.lang) to support a sane suggestion
14:11<andythenorth>don't mind boringly setting industry name for all industry types
14:11<FLHerne>http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/1323/
14:11<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: it could be an nml issue
14:12<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: that nml duplicates the string internally
14:12<andythenorth>oh yes
14:12<andythenorth>that's entirely plausible
14:12<Eddi|zuHause>then the ingame check for same stringid will fail
14:12<andythenorth>yes
14:12<Eddi|zuHause>causing the duplicates
14:13<andythenorth>well that's just how nml works
14:13<Eddi|zuHause>i believe i used the last nfo version
14:13<Eddi|zuHause>so that may explain why that issue does not appear there
14:14<Rhamphoryncus>FLHerne: that shouldn't happen..
14:14<andythenorth>so anybody want to suggest station names?
14:15<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: maybe post-processing on the nml->nfo output may fix this
14:15<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: but just using the industry name should be an ok-ish workaround
14:16<andythenorth>I think setting a unique string per industry is best
14:16<andythenorth>assuming I can think of interesting ones :P
14:16<andythenorth>I am happy to crowd-source :)
14:17<@Terkhen>andythenorth: I'll also need some time to update the spanish translation (installation is still in process)
14:17<andythenorth>np
14:17<andythenorth>I'm not going to release 0.7.3 for at minimum a few days I guess
14:17-!-pugi_ [~pugi@dyndsl-091-096-045-101.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has joined #openttd
14:18<@Terkhen>ok :)
14:18<Eddi|zuHause>STR_TOWN:{STRING}; STR_INDUSTRY:name; STR_STATION:{STRING} {STRING} --> station_name: string(STR_STATION, string(STR_TOWN), string(STR_INDUSTRY))
14:19<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: does this work?
14:19<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: that's an nml patch? an ottd patch? or a FIRS patch?
14:19<Eddi|zuHause>a FIRS workaround
14:19<Eddi|zuHause>for using the industry name
14:19<andythenorth>can test
14:19<andythenorth>baby-sleeping duty first
14:19<andythenorth>will be 30 mins or so
14:20<FLHerne>Rhamphoryncus: >that shouldn't happen.. - It does :-(
14:20<Rhamphoryncus>FLHerne: can you put an actual diff on the pastebin?
14:20<FLHerne>Possibly you'll end up 'solving' it the same way as last time, though :-(
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14:24<FLHerne>http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/1324/ - relevant bit is ~line 900 :P
14:24<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: currently town name is supplied by ottd afaict, i.e. FIRS never handles it explicitly
14:24*andythenorth might have missed something
14:25<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: yes, but you must have the {STRING} as a placeholder
14:25<andythenorth>yes
14:25*FLHerne wonders what he missed this time :|
14:25<andythenorth>you're proposing handling that explicitly?
14:25<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: but the string(x, y) macro replaces the first {STRING}
14:25<andythenorth>x
14:25<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: so you must have a dummy string to re-insert it
14:26<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: i don't know if it works lie this
14:26<andythenorth>k
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14:27<LordAro>evening all
14:28<@Terkhen>hi LordAro
14:28<Rhamphoryncus>FLHerne: could rename sugar refinery to sugar plant
14:28<LordAro>honestly, i go offline for a few days... wth happened?
14:28-!-lugo [GBerten293@oxygen.evosurge.com] has quit [Quit: EvoSurge - Free & Premium IRC Bouncers on Demand - http://evosurge.com/]
14:28<Rhamphoryncus>Mill is also used for sugar can, but of course that conflicts with another industry
14:29<FLHerne>Rhamphoryncus: do you mean andythenorth? :P
14:29<Rhamphoryncus>probably XD
14:29-!-DNAGoa [DNAGoa@c-9d61e455.1010-3-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #openttd
14:29*Rhamphoryncus notes that Plant already exists too
14:29<andythenorth>if unique names can be found, I'll use them
14:29<DNAGoa>Hi all
14:29<andythenorth>might cause translators a headache
14:30<DNAGoa>more live here and the #tycoon
14:30<Rhamphoryncus>yeah, it's seeming like duplicates are the lesser evil
14:30<@Terkhen>hi DNAGoa
14:30<DNAGoa>Hello
14:31<DNAGoa>nice to speak with real player of openttd
14:31<frosch123>who? what's that?
14:31<FLHerne>the #tycooners are all lunatics :D
14:31<DNAGoa>true true :P
14:32<Rhamphoryncus>And you expect us to be better?
14:32<DNAGoa>yap
14:32*FLHerne looks at #tycoon
14:32*DNAGoa smile
14:33<FLHerne>DNAGoa: so you introduced yourself a few times, and got splashed by Bukkit in the process? :P
14:33<DNAGoa>yapp cause Bukkit is a server to minecraft
14:33<@Terkhen>we are kind of crazy here too
14:34<FLHerne>Terkhen: in a more focused way, though :-)
14:34<DNAGoa>i am playing 4 games OpenTTD(of course), minecraft, Sim City 4 ... soon 5 i comming and ... okay only 3 games
14:34<@Terkhen>in an almost OCD way?
14:34<@Alberth>oh, you mean sometimes we even discuss OpenTTD? :)
14:35<DNAGoa>OCD?
14:35*andythenorth went in #tycoon once. They were talking crap :P
14:35<@Terkhen>obsessive compulsive disorder
14:35<DNAGoa>nice
14:35<FLHerne>Sim City 4? Sacrilege! SC2k is the only true form!
14:35<andythenorth>Terkhen: you're a FIRS translator - if I give all the industries unique, strange, English names, you'll hate me?
14:35<DNAGoa>... nooo SimCity .. 1
14:35<DNAGoa>in Amiga version
14:36<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: what's not unique about the industry names?
14:36<@Terkhen>andythenorth: either that or ignore the new names
14:36<andythenorth>nothing, they just lack character
14:36<@Terkhen>probably both
14:36<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: i disagree
14:36<FLHerne>Can anyone see what's wrong with the patch format?
14:36<@Terkhen>FLHerne: what do you mean?
14:36*DNAGoa wounder what the are takling about
14:36<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: you find them practical?
14:37<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: yes
14:37<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: no use naming the station "factory" when it's actually a slaughterhouse...
14:37*DNAGoa still trying to understand
14:37<FLHerne>Terkhen: http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/1323/
14:37<andythenorth>well also...the current names mostly map to the industry anyway
14:37<FLHerne>Patch is http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/1324/ - relevant bit is ~line 900
14:37<andythenorth>'farm', 'refinery', 'wells'
14:37<andythenorth>'dredging site' :P
14:38<andythenorth>they have a very low information value :P
14:38<andythenorth>(compared to just using industry name)
14:38<andythenorth>in fact, arguably they lose information
14:39<DNAGoa>if i say playing openttd in multiplayer you say?
14:39<@Terkhen>FLHerne: sorry, I don't see the problem
14:39<@Terkhen>DNAGoa: here we don't play much
14:39<DNAGoa>nooooo
14:39<@Terkhen>we mostly have inane discussions
14:39<DNAGoa>whyyyyyyy gooooddd whyyyyy goooodddd
14:39<@Terkhen>but somewhat fun
14:39<FLHerne>I play quite a lot, actually
14:39<@Terkhen>if you want to play just start openttd and connect to a random server
14:40<FLHerne>When I don't start asking awkward questions about C++, anyway :P
14:40<DNAGoa>nooo ... i want to play with my bubbies ... the AI :P
14:40<DNAGoa>and 1 - 4 Tottenhamn vs Chealse
14:41<FLHerne>Are those numbers good or bad?
14:41<DNAGoa>for Chelase is good and for Tottenhamn is Bad
14:41<@Terkhen>for me: don't care :P
14:42<DNAGoa>... hmmm is sport
14:42<DNAGoa>not esport just plain sport
14:42<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: I 90% understand that macro.
14:43<andythenorth>where do I put it though?
14:43<andythenorth>in the lang file?
14:43<andythenorth>or in the prop for each industry?
14:43<Eddi|zuHause>the last part in the nml code for each industry
14:43<Eddi|zuHause>the other parts in the lang file
14:43<andythenorth>k
14:43<andythenorth>let's see
14:44<andythenorth>don't hold your breath, you'll pass out before FIRS finishes compiling :P
14:44<DNAGoa>if i say ... openttd with sim city you say?
14:45<DNAGoa>and have anybody a good AI?
14:45<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: STR_INDUSTRY:name
14:45<andythenorth>in the lang file?
14:45<andythenorth>will evaluate to 'name'
14:45<FLHerne>DNAGoa: AIAI is good in my opinion
14:45<Eddi|zuHause>yes
14:45<andythenorth>doesn't it need a string passing?
14:46<Eddi|zuHause>no, you'd use the STR_INDUSTRY_WHATEVER you already have
14:46<DNAGoa>i will test out, how about Adminiral and NoCab?
14:46<Eddi|zuHause>put that into the macro
14:46<FLHerne>I haven't used either of those very much, sorry
14:46-!-cypher [~Miranda@ip-78-45-92-151.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd
14:47<FLHerne>See http://www.tt-forums.net/viewforum.php?f=65 for AI stuff (if you haven't already)
14:47<@Alberth>DNAGoa: http://wiki.openttd.org/Comparison_of_AIs
14:48<DNAGoa>Alberth thansk
14:48<DNAGoa>*thanks
14:48<@Alberth>good night
14:48*FLHerne forgot about that page
14:48-!-Alberth [~hat3@a82-95-164-127.adsl.xs4all.nl] has left #openttd []
14:49<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: is it ok to hold my breath now?
14:49<andythenorth>no
14:49<andythenorth>:P
14:51<NGC3982>i noticed i started my server without enabling electrical rails
14:51<NGC3982>i cant seem to change it in-game
14:51<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r24120 /branches/1.2/os/windows/installer/install.nsi: [1.2] -Fix [FS#5155]: accidental removal of constant definition in Windows installer
14:52<NGC3982>am i doing it wrong, or is that a feature? :)
14:52<FLHerne>Probably a feature :P
14:52<Eddi|zuHause>@calc 100*100*400/(72*86*1300)
14:52<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: 0.49691910157
14:53<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: got some amusing extra ';' chars, but otherwise works
14:53<frosch123>you cannot change certain settings in multiplayer
14:53<frosch123>only those which are syncable
14:53<NGC3982>any particular reason? cheating or simply non-compatible?
14:53<NGC3982>ah, i see.
14:53<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: it "compiles" or it displays correctly ingame?
14:53<andythenorth>displays ~correctly
14:53<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: the ; were only to separate the lines
14:54<NGC3982>frosch123: hlw
14:54<NGC3982>oops.
14:54<NGC3982>never mind.
14:54<Eddi|zuHause>Herz-Lungen-Wiederbelebung?
14:54<andythenorth>oh yeah, lang files don't need ;
14:54<NGC3982>;)
14:54<andythenorth>unlike other parts of nml
14:54<andythenorth>I know why, but it always trips me up
14:55<Eddi|zuHause>(for english speaking people: roughy translates as CPR)
14:56<andythenorth>for christmas, a faster nmlc?
14:56<andythenorth>:P
14:56<Eddi|zuHause>it'll be so fast, it already comes out easter!
14:56<Eddi|zuHause>:p
14:56<andythenorth>multiprocessing....
14:57<andythenorth>probably won't help
14:58<andythenorth>station strings appear to cache :|
14:59<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r24121 /trunk/ (5 files in 3 dirs): -Merge: documentation update from 1.2
14:59<andythenorth>they cache even more when you don't save a lang file before compiling :P
15:00<andythenorth>so are station names unique per player?
15:00<andythenorth>or per map?
15:01<frosch123>i would guess per map
15:02<frosch123>due to taking over other companies
15:02<frosch123>iirc that also applies to groups, and i think we got complains about that :)
15:05<FLHerne>frosch123: I can see why people would complain
15:05<FLHerne>Could the taking-over-company code not check for duplicate station/group names?
15:06-!-michi_cc [~michi@dude.icosahedron.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
15:06<FLHerne>Maybe append extra characters to unduplicate them
15:08<Eddi|zuHause>that's not how it works
15:08<Eddi|zuHause>the strings do not exist in the form of characters
15:08<Eddi|zuHause>unless you manually changed it
15:09<Eddi|zuHause>so you cannot "just append characters"
15:09<FLHerne>Surely it could check for duplicate strings despite not knowing what the string translations actually are?
15:10<FLHerne>If appending would be impractical, it could allocate names as if new stations were being constructed?
15:11<andythenorth>where would the pointer point?
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15:12<andythenorth>pointing pointer points :P
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15:16<oskari892>My friend told me that original TTD had "tunnel money cheat" ?
15:17<oskari892>If you built a very long tunnel, you would had money?
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15:17<oskari892>Something like that, can somebody confirm?
15:17<__ln__>Yes, but I think that was in TT, not sure if in TTD.
15:19<Eddi|zuHause>it was in TTD as well
15:19<Eddi|zuHause>but in OpenTTD it's fixed
15:20<Eddi|zuHause>i actually used that cheat once, very late in a game
15:20<Eddi|zuHause>when my money overflowed into negative
15:20<Prof_Frink>No, it wasn't in TTD.
15:20<zxbiohazardzx>hello XD
15:20<Prof_Frink>I think it was fixed in TTWE.
15:20<Eddi|zuHause>built a few of those tunnels, and got back into positive
15:20<Eddi|zuHause>Prof_Frink: no, i'm very certain that this was in a TTWE game
15:21<Prof_Frink>So not TTD then.
15:21<Eddi|zuHause>Prof_Frink: i'm saying that you definitely remember wrong. :)
15:21<Prof_Frink>< Eddi|zuHause> it was in TTD as well <-- It wasn't.
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15:27<SpComb>I vaugely recall failing to do it in TTD
15:28<Eddi|zuHause>it failed in TT as well, when i first tried it
15:29<Eddi|zuHause>it needs certain length at a certain inflation rate
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15:35<andythenorth>hmm
15:35*andythenorth wants...
15:35<andythenorth>ach, nvm
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15:44<LordAro>evening all
15:44<LordAro>dammit, said that already :L
15:49<andythenorth>bah
15:49<andythenorth>I broke nml
15:49<Eddi|zuHause>how is that surprising? :p
15:51<andythenorth>I've used a string like
15:51<andythenorth>TTD_STR_INDUSTRY_NAME_PAPER_MILL
15:51<andythenorth>and it's not valid
15:51<andythenorth>but I don't know which one :P
15:52<andythenorth>or this isn't valid
15:52<andythenorth> nearby_station_name: string(STR_STATION, string(STR_TOWN), string(TTD_STR_INDUSTRY_NAME_IRON_ORE_MINE));
15:54<Eddi|zuHause>no, that doesn't look valid
15:54<Eddi|zuHause>i don't think you can reference TTD strings this way
15:54<andythenorth>this is valid though
15:54<andythenorth> name: TTD_STR_INDUSTRY_NAME_FRUIT_PLANTATION;
15:54<Eddi|zuHause>yes
15:55<andythenorth>k
15:55<Eddi|zuHause>notice that this is not inside a string() macro
15:55<andythenorth>I'm just going to default to TTD original names for original industries
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16:06<andythenorth> nearby_station_name: 0;
16:06<andythenorth>:o
16:06<andythenorth>interesting bit of code there by someone ;)
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16:09<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: all fixed :)
16:10<andythenorth>thanks
16:10-!-drac_boy [~drac_boy@modemcable085.125-161-184.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #openttd
16:10<drac_boy>hi
16:10<andythenorth>Rhamphoryncus: was there any obvious fix for http://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/3588
16:10<andythenorth>?
16:11<Rhamphoryncus>andythenorth: nope. It never worked. Only reason it appeared to is that nmlc was reading the wrong global
16:11<andythenorth>ho
16:11<andythenorth>what larks
16:12<Rhamphoryncus>Perhaps something evil like set a global flag the first time a certain callback is used
16:12<andythenorth>the method for doing this should be straightforward
16:12<drac_boy>do any of you know if it would be quoted as (Bo'Bo')(Bo'Bo') or in a different way for two units? in usa it would had been labelled as B-B+B-B
16:13<Eddi|zuHause>drac_boy: if it's physically separable, then it's Bo'Bo'+Bo'Bo'
16:14<drac_boy>hm thanks, just couldn't find an example to figure out how to write it
16:14<Eddi|zuHause>drac_boy: have any bit of context`
16:14<Eddi|zuHause>?
16:16<drac_boy>don't mind the grainy drawing but this was what got me started http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7f/JNR_EH10_16.png
16:16<xiong>andythenorth, It's not for me to say; but yes, I consider the Lumber Yard to be working tolerably. You can meditate on the fixed-point/rounding issue if you like. Might want to adjust documentation, as if anybody read it.
16:16<drac_boy>might be hard to tell but yes it was seperately coupled in the middle
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16:19<Eddi|zuHause>yes, then + should be accurate
16:20<Eddi|zuHause>http://www.bahnbilder.de/1024/e-77-10-bw-glauchau-455426.jpg <- on contrary, this one is (1'B)(B1')
16:21<Eddi|zuHause>because they cannot be separated from the middle sections
16:21<drac_boy>ah so thats where they then used brackets...hmm thanks a lot eddi
16:21<andythenorth>when small amounts of cargo (less than 8t) are delivered to secondary industries,
16:21<andythenorth>this will be stored until there is enough to produce a certain amount of output
16:21<andythenorth>cargo. It can appear that such small amounts of cargo are lost, but they aren't.
16:21<andythenorth>xiong: ^
16:22<andythenorth>in the readme now
16:22<Eddi|zuHause>drac_boy: you use brackets when the bogey is not simply consisting of driven axles
16:22<drac_boy>looks like thats a museum yard? heh :)
16:22<Eddi|zuHause>yes
16:22<Eddi|zuHause>it's one of the oldest functional electric engines in germany
16:23<drac_boy>I knew it had to be old with that low E numbering but .. functional.. thats interesting
16:24<xiong>andythenorth++
16:24<Eddi|zuHause>drac_boy: the photo seems to have been taken on a gathering of historical engines
16:24<Eddi|zuHause>drac_boy: not at an actual museum
16:24<FLHerne>Eddi|zuHause: Does the museum have it's own catenary? Or is the loco mainline registered?
16:25<FLHerne>Ok, not a museum then...
16:25<Eddi|zuHause>FLHerne: the engine has mainline permission
16:25<Eddi|zuHause>although they might have trouble renewing it
16:25<zxbiohazardzx>.quote random
16:25<zxbiohazardzx>meh wrong irc
16:25<zxbiohazardzx>no quotebot here XD
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16:25<Eddi|zuHause>must be renewed every 5 years or so, with significant financial investment
16:26<drac_boy>eddi electric locomotive with no overhead wire reminds me of an article on a new emu .. apparently the main repair shed was not electrified but it was on a downslope so the emu just simply glide into the shed 'dead' .. then was pushed back to the electrified track by the diesel shunter
16:27<drac_boy>not sure if that must had been an unique operation
16:27<Eddi|zuHause>drac_boy: such kind of engine sheds have existed, yes
16:27<andythenorth>6 FIRS bugs, hanging on a wall
16:27<Zuu>I recall being on a night train in north sweden which has to goo backward in order to get speed to cross a powerless section.
16:27<andythenorth>and if one FIRS bug should accidentally fall...
16:27<Eddi|zuHause>drac_boy: you notice the yellow engine in the background is a shunting engine
16:28<Zuu>Clarification: it had to go backward some distance and then forward again. Possible it had been stoping at a red signal or so.
16:28<drac_boy>andythenorth what'll happen then? :)
16:29<andythenorth>there'll be 5 FIRS bugs, hanging on a wall
16:29<andythenorth>leaving merely another 78 open tickets
16:29<drac_boy>heh
16:30<FLHerne>Does 'windmills still jump up and down' count as one of those bugs? :P
16:30<andythenorth>nope
16:30<andythenorth>you never posted a ticket anyway
16:30<andythenorth>;)
16:30<Eddi|zuHause>drac_boy: a brief history of the engine: the series was ordered before the first world war, but only produced after it had ended. after the second world war, most of the series ended up in east germeny, from where all electric engines were moved to russia, but given back in the 1950's. originally this series, due to its age and outdated technic (coupled instead of individual axles) they should have been scrapped, but due to delays for the
16:30<Eddi|zuHause>new engines, some of them were repaired, and one of them picked as museum engine
16:30*FLHerne goes to post a ticket ;D
16:31<drac_boy>eddi hmm I'm not too surprised with that WWII shuffle-around
16:31<drac_boy>and mind you I kind of have a thing for siderods even if its not on steam :)
16:31<Eddi|zuHause>drac_boy: the rods-technique was basically already outdated when they were produced
16:32<andythenorth>FLHerne: I'll close the ticket :P
16:32<andythenorth>unless you can demonstrate the issue at 1x zoom level
16:33-!-Djohaal [~Djohaal@201.47.15.57.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
16:33*FLHerne remembers he hasn't got a DevZone account anyway :-(
16:33<Zuu>Eddi|zuHause: Thanks for the history lection. I still can't stop but looking at thet engine. :-)
16:34<FLHerne>andythenorth: You should draw 8bpp EZ sprites, just to confuse the people who think 32bpp=EZ :P
16:35<andythenorth>I'm closing this as an issue for OpenTTD
16:35<andythenorth>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/3498
16:35<andythenorth>either remove the cbs that permit customising cargos
16:35<andythenorth>or the industry chain view is broken
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16:35<andythenorth>keeps coming up as a bug
16:36<andythenorth>:P
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16:36<drac_boy>zuu http://www.lionel.com/products/ProductNavigator/_ProductImages_590/6-18384_4881.jpg that was called a Bipolar ... and mind you they had very quiet traction motors that some of them were rigged with automatic-on bells for working yards heh
16:37<drac_boy>on the mainline they were good fast locomotive, especially silk trains
16:37<@Terkhen>ok, let's see if I can compile FIRS now
16:38<andythenorth>\o/
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16:38<oskari892>andythenorth: Have you considered Peat as FIRS cargo?
16:38<andythenorth>yes
16:38<andythenorth>you could do it as an add-on
16:39<andythenorth>but it's not valid for main FIRS ;)
16:39<@Terkhen>it's really slow, but it seems that I can
16:39-!-Chris_Booth is now known as Mazure
16:39<andythenorth>I think there's one cargo slot free
16:39<Zuu>drac_boy: impressive. I don't know what that type of engine style is called, but I've mainly seen that in diesel engines for switchyards.
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16:39<drac_boy>oskari892 what can peat be used for btw?
16:39<andythenorth>fuel
16:39<andythenorth>fertiliser
16:39<andythenorth>it's biomass
16:39-!-Mazure is now known as Chris_Booth
16:40<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: economies!
16:40<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: one day :P
16:40<andythenorth>I want to make it python driven before I do those
16:40<FLHerne>Is it possible to have more than 32 cargo types, if not all of them exist simultaneously?
16:41<drac_boy>zuu this is from the years when diesels in usa were built for specific tasks just like steam locomotives used to be: http://www.toytrains1.com/images/trains/tr_prr5671.jpg
16:41<Eddi|zuHause>plan it as 0.8, and when you're done, call it 1.0 instead :p
16:41<drac_boy>that one is a yard goat..meaning it was slow but could haul just about everything except the kitchen sink
16:41<drac_boy>'tr' was short for TRansfer
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16:45<andythenorth>ach
16:45<andythenorth>just 71 open tickets :P
16:45<drac_boy>andythenorth hmm you always could use peat as three industries. the peat output itself, then a fertilizer industry that could boost the output of any farming industries. and maybe a small powerplant built to run on the peat fuel rather than coal
16:45<andythenorth>I could yes
16:45<andythenorth>do you think I will?
16:46<Zuu>drac_boy: Oh yea. I spent a summer in Vancouver (Canada), and there I saw three coupled diesel engiens like the one you posted pulling a very long train.
16:46<drac_boy>andythenorth well its up to you :P
16:46<andythenorth>:)
16:46<andythenorth>I bet I won't
16:47<drac_boy>:)
16:47<andythenorth>peat isn't a major world cargo for transportation
16:47<andythenorth>it's quite specific to certain muddy places
16:47<andythenorth>and there's no power plants in FIRS
16:48<Wolf01>'night
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16:49<FLHerne>andythenorth: Pets?
16:49<andythenorth>:)
16:49<FLHerne>Produced by farms and some town buildings, accepted by Stores :P
16:49<andythenorth>covered by 'livestock'
16:49<andythenorth>except not
16:50<drac_boy>FLHerne problem is its not really 'pets' its more like 'farm animals' .. sheep and cattle most of the times :P
16:50<FLHerne>Not really - pets aren't ground up to make sausages :P
16:50<drac_boy>although I think sheep transport was more of a usa/australia thing
16:50<FLHerne>FIRS has livestock already
16:51<andythenorth>Terkhen: compile ok?
16:51<@Terkhen>yup
16:52<@Terkhen>now trying to play with shared folders until make install copies the compiled FIRS into my windows OpenTTD folder
16:52<@Terkhen>otherwise it is a PITA to test
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16:53<andythenorth>ftp it somewhere :P
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16:54<@Terkhen>boring and tiresome
16:54<@Terkhen>make install -> test in windows
16:54<@Terkhen>that's what I want :)
16:55<@Terkhen>yay, works
16:55<@Terkhen>huh... this is *not* what I expected
16:56*Terkhen wonders if crashing is a new FIRS feature
16:56<@Terkhen>sorry andythenorth, it seems that I have to install my openttd debugging environment too
16:59<frosch123>:p
17:00<andythenorth>:)
17:00<@Terkhen>OpenTTD magic: try to do something completely small and find a big, ugly, probably unrelated mess
17:00<@Terkhen>:P
17:02<frosch123>night
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17:02<@Terkhen>night frosch123
17:02<@Terkhen>argh, almost
17:02<andythenorth>"and then, after I had rebuilt gcc from scratch, changed my filesystem to case sensitive, updated FIRS to grf v8, and upgraded mercurial, I was able to change the version number" :P
17:02<@Terkhen>well, I had to install mercurial from backports to be able to work with it :P
17:03<drac_boy>andythenorth heh
17:09<andythenorth>Terkhen: I have to sleep ;)
17:10<@Terkhen>yes, most people need that
17:10<@Terkhen>good night andythenorth :P
17:10<andythenorth>sorry it has opened a can of worms :|
17:10<andythenorth>good luck :o
17:11<@Terkhen>thanks
17:11<andythenorth>also - if it doesn't work - don't worry, I'll figure it out
17:11<andythenorth>good night ;)
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17:11<@Terkhen>night
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17:33<@Terkhen>I wonder why my stupid MSVC is trying to convert OpenTTD into a .lib
17:36<Eddi|zuHause>played with one too many settings? :p
17:36<@Terkhen>no idea :/
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17:38<Zuu>re-generate projects?
17:41<@Terkhen>how do I do that?
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17:42<Eddi|zuHause>projects/generate.vbs
17:42<@Terkhen>let's see, but it should be a clean checkout
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17:57<@Terkhen>thanks, it worked after that
17:57<@Terkhen>good night
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19:08<DNAGoa>bye everybody
19:08<DNAGoa>time to sleep
19:08*DNAGoa waves
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---Logclosed Mon Apr 16 00:00:18 2012