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#openttd IRC Logs for 2012-04-17

---Logopened Tue Apr 17 00:00:25 2012
---Logclosed Tue Apr 17 00:00:37 2012
---Logopened Tue Apr 17 00:00:45 2012
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07:34<Amaury>Hi everbody
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07:36<FLHerne>This channel is a bit quiet :P
07:37<Amaury_>is there a probleme with server to join ?
07:37<Sacro>that's just how it seems
07:37<Amaury_>i'm not able to update server list
07:37<Amaury_>may be because of 1.2 ?
07:38<Amaury_>anyone able to play ?
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07:48<Amaury_>is there someone here ?
07:48<Amaury_>Sacro, FLHerne ?
07:49<Sacro>Looks fine
07:50<Amaury_>hum ... how can I diagnostik the probleme ?
07:50<Amaury_>when I want to update TTD answer unable to connect server
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07:55*FLHerne doesn't use multiplayer enough to know :-(
08:01<@planetmaker>If you can't connect to a server, you the server's down or it has mal-configured ports somewhere. Usually
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08:13<@planetmaker>^ Amaury_
08:15<NGC3982>swedish. <3
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08:48<andythenorth>Pikka le bird
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08:58<Eddi|zuHause>lö börd?
08:59<andythenorth>le Eddi|zuHause
08:59<andythenorth>or das Eddi|zuHause
08:59<andythenorth>have you mastered pixa yet?
08:59<Eddi|zuHause>as long as it's not "die Eddi|zuHause" :p
08:59<andythenorth>I should have called it pikka :P
09:00<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: i have not continued yet from the state of yesterday
09:00<andythenorth>looked pretty good
09:00<andythenorth>I'm going to make an example teaching how to generate 'hello world' text using pixels :P
09:00<andythenorth>in increasingly complex ways
09:00<andythenorth>but not today
09:01<andythenorth>today I am trying to sell something to Australia
09:02<Eddi|zuHause>i hope it's not didgeridoos :)
09:03<andythenorth>they have them I think
09:03<andythenorth>probably got enough
09:15<andythenorth>need some?
09:16<Pikka>probably not
09:16*andythenorth has been poking at FIRS some more
09:16<andythenorth>Pikka: when is your industry set ready? :P
09:16<andythenorth>you should include a minecraft mine :P
09:16<FLHerne>For mining minecraft?
09:17<andythenorth>ideally, if you click on it, we provide a new cb for 'game over'
09:17<FLHerne>What does mined minecraft from a minecraft mine look like when you mine it? :P
09:17<Pikka>I had contemplated a minecraft grf
09:17<Wolf01>me too
09:17<Pikka>it's one of those things that seems like a cool idea
09:18<Pikka>but on more thought
09:18<Pikka>even I wouldn't use it
09:18<andythenorth>implementing minecraft in ttd :P
09:18<andythenorth>implementing TTD in minecraft seems more plausible
09:18<andythenorth>someone I know patched a full js interpreter into minecraft iirc
09:18<andythenorth>so build a C++ emulator in javascript :P
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09:19<Pikka>minecraft is silly, really
09:19<Pikka>although I have been playing a bit of old yobgox recently
09:19<andythenorth>I've stayed out of minecrack
09:19<andythenorth>I know what would happen :P
09:19<Pikka>I'd play newer yobgox but it's very unstable
09:20<andythenorth>I've nothing against MC, but I only get one life
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09:20<Pikka>there are worse things to do with your life than minecraft
09:20<FLHerne>Is OTTD one of them? :P
09:20<Pikka>not necessarily
09:21<andythenorth>I've run out of discretionary time, for the next 18 years or so
09:21<andythenorth>I do work, children, ottd and sleep in that order
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09:28<Eddi|zuHause>surely, playing minecraft will only need dropping one of those :p
09:28<Pikka>minecraft is actually pretty boring
09:28<Pikka>one tends to play it in spurts
09:30<andythenorth>as far as I can see, it's project based
09:30<andythenorth>seems like online lego
09:30<andythenorth>'can I build a cannon in minecraft?'
09:30<andythenorth>'can I build a roller coaster'
09:31<andythenorth>'can I build an automated mine cart dispatching system?'
09:31<andythenorth>'how far can I throw stuff?'
09:31<Pikka>well, online is even more griefer-prone than openttd
09:32<andythenorth>all the players I know just hack on it
09:32<andythenorth>rather than playing
09:32<CornishPasty>I wonder if you can create OpenTTD systems in minecraft... :P
09:34<Pikka>andy: and because it's so griefer-prone, all the servers use whitelists and only let people in who they know. and getting to know minecraft players is not much fun.
09:34<andythenorth>he :)
09:35<Pikka>I think sss on the forums would be at the "thoughtful, intelligent and mature" end of the minecraft community spectrum.
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09:36<Pikka>even with mods it's a fairly shallow game, in either single or multi player imo
09:36<andythenorth>millions of downloads!
09:36<andythenorth>€8 per download!
09:36<Pikka>there is that
09:37<Pikka>it would be nice if the openttd devs had three million dollars that they decided they didn't really need so could give away to their friends.
09:37<andythenorth>we should help them get it
09:37<zooks>minecraft alse is loaded with really bad bugs
09:38<zooks>like memleaks and stuff
09:38<Pikka>yes zooks
09:38<zooks>as there is only 5 people working on the game and they are only interested in adding features to attract more sales
09:39<Pikka>no zooks
09:39<zooks>well maybe more heh
09:42<Pikka>andythenorth: I'm not sure how monetisable GPL-licenced content is, though.
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09:43<Pikka>from my point of view, as far as possibly making money from OTTD goes, I can only see grfs as an audience-building tool, rather than saleable products in themselves.
09:44<Pikka>hello dihedral
09:44<dihedral>uh - hi :-) a Pikka :-)
09:46<andythenorth>Pikka: we just charge for the pipe, i.e. Bananas
09:47<andythenorth>same reason I pay apple, instead of doing illegal limewire-ish type things
09:47<andythenorth>but yeah
09:47<andythenorth>and no
09:47<Fori>Is there any possibility for trains being replaced by the same train but a newer model?
09:47<andythenorth>yes and no
09:47<andythenorth>pikka does it
09:48<andythenorth>but not in a way you can use with auto-replace :P
09:48<andythenorth>I invented a spec for it the other day
09:48<Pikka>it is a bad idea
09:48<andythenorth>give vehicles an incremental version number
09:48<andythenorth>it would be neat
09:48<Pikka>there's no shortage of IDs any more
09:48<Fori>But for now there is none? ^^
09:48<andythenorth>but probably it's just as easy to use more IDs
09:48<Pikka>stat upgrades are to be avoided
09:49<andythenorth>I use them in HEQS
09:49<andythenorth>avoid buy menu spam
09:49<@planetmaker>Fori, there's autorenew
09:49<andythenorth>as model life is a total crap shoot and broken imho
09:49<Pikka>if they're minor upgrades, perhaps
09:49<@planetmaker>whic hreplaces with the same
09:49<Pikka>but things like the early steam locomotives in NARS, the difference is too great
09:49<@planetmaker>and autoreplace, which replaces with another engine
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09:50<Fori>I'm using NARS in fact.
09:51<Fori>So I'll have to wait for a new engine?
09:51<andythenorth>'buy menu availability' cb is probably a trivial patch for vehicles
09:51<andythenorth>let's patch it
09:51<andythenorth>stations have it
09:52<Pikka>after you
09:52<Pikka>I've always wanted that
09:52<andythenorth>not today, but remind me
09:52<Pikka>to have different vehicles for different players ;)
09:52<Pikka>AI only vehicles, etc
09:52<andythenorth>in my idea....hmm
09:52<andythenorth>I want to be able to make availability of vehicle x depend on availability of vehicle y
09:52<andythenorth>I'm *sure* that won't be circular :P
09:53<andythenorth>_probably_ it's called in a deterministic order, perhaps by ID
09:53<andythenorth>and so loops would be impossible :P
09:57<andythenorth>iirc the hardest part about adding cbs looks like patching nforenum :P
09:57<andythenorth>I may regret that comment
09:58<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: is 'buy menu availability' cb of interest to CETS?
09:58<Eddi|zuHause>in what sense?
09:59<andythenorth>in the sense of making vehicles appear in buy menu by returning 0x00 or 0x01 etc
09:59<andythenorth>and I might patch it
09:59<andythenorth>but it will need a reviewer :P
09:59<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: it would be useful to tie availability of one vehicle to the availability of another vehicle
09:59<andythenorth>so it might need new vars
10:00<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: but that may interfere with the prototype phase
10:00<andythenorth>ok, so things to think about
10:00<andythenorth>but a useful cb?
10:00<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: for example, i introduce "ICE1", i may want to introduce it as a "10 Wagon", "12 Wagon" and "14 Wagon" version
10:00<Eddi|zuHause>as separate buy menu items
10:01<andythenorth>you want all to appear at same time?
10:01<Eddi|zuHause>then only one of these versions should be offered as prototype
10:01<Eddi|zuHause>and all others should get available at the same time
10:01<Eddi|zuHause>but only to the person accepting the prototype
10:01<Eddi|zuHause>and then he should only need to buy one of them
10:02<Eddi|zuHause>to fulfill the "bought prototype" condition
10:02<andythenorth>doesn't sound batshit crazy
10:02<andythenorth>I'd have to read src to see how that could be done though :P
10:02*andythenorth back to work
10:02<Eddi|zuHause>it may be possible to do this by other means though
10:03<Eddi|zuHause>i.e. don't code these as different vehicle IDs
10:03<Eddi|zuHause>but code a "multiple variants" callback
10:03<Eddi|zuHause>that is registering multiple buy-menu entries
10:04<Eddi|zuHause>and which one was selected is passed to the purchase callbacks as extra callback info
10:04<Eddi|zuHause>so the articulation callback may return different stuff
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10:05<andythenorth>I had the multiple variants idea too
10:05<andythenorth>points to vehicle-local-storage imo
10:05<andythenorth>but in this case, on the type, not the instance
10:06<Eddi|zuHause>this has nothing to do with storage
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10:08<andythenorth>I think authors would want to customise what they're doing with this
10:08<andythenorth>storage / extend arbitrary properties /s
10:09*andythenorth doubts it's wise
10:10<andythenorth>or possible
10:12<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: this could just be a separation of "cargo subtypes" from cargos. and one could allow dropdown boxes in the buy menu listing the cargos and the subtypes
10:12<CornishPasty>Eddi|zuHause: winner
10:13<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: same comment could apply to other things
10:13<andythenorth>but yes
10:13<andythenorth>- articulated vehicle lengths
10:13<andythenorth>- liveries
10:13<Eddi|zuHause>but making subtypes changeable after building would conflict with the idea of having the articulation callback depend on it
10:14<andythenorth>- stat variations (power, weight etc)
10:16<Eddi|zuHause>CornishPasty: what?
10:17<CornishPasty>Eddi|zuHause: the Prince of Persia source
10:17<Eddi|zuHause>CornishPasty: the whole sentence
10:18<CornishPasty>Never mind. You'll be forever wondering
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10:30<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: one big problem for separating subtypes from cargos is handling backwards compatibility for existing GRFs
10:31<andythenorth>always that :P
10:31<andythenorth>just don't break it?
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10:31<andythenorth>respect all current vars and cbs, it just keeps working
10:32<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: but that duplicates memory and stuff
10:33<Eddi|zuHause>if done "the wrong way"
10:33<andythenorth>worse is better :P
10:33<andythenorth>but also...better is better
10:33<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: i didn't even understand what that meant
10:34<andythenorth>you're familiar with worse is better though? :)
10:34<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: it seemed to argue a "grand design" vs. a "step by step" approach
10:34-!-Vadtec [~Vadtec@2001:470:1f06:13e0::1337] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
10:34<andythenorth>approximately yes
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10:34<andythenorth>primarily it advocates simplicity of implementation *above* other factors
10:34<andythenorth>it doesn't say ignore other factors
10:34<Eddi|zuHause>and then cited some artificial reasons why one should be superior
10:35<andythenorth>nor does it say make things deliberately worse
10:35<andythenorth>it's basically a pretty simple argument that shipping something beats shipping nothing
10:36<Eddi|zuHause>the tower of babel was a "grand design". and that's the reason why it failed.
10:38<andythenorth>it doesn't necessarily recommend burning all future possibilities to ship today :P
10:38<andythenorth>nor breaking everything that was already built to ship today :P
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10:40<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: that's why i didn't understand the whole argument
10:41<andythenorth>it originates in the question 'why did C and Unix together beat Lisp'
10:41<andythenorth>it's a bit like 'why did PHP comprehensively beat Python and Perl'
10:44<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: because the properties that someone defines as "best" do not automatically create the biggest "market share"
10:44<Eddi|zuHause>why did VHS win over Betamax?
10:44<andythenorth>because porn was available on VHS
10:44<andythenorth>dunno why that was, but it's the usual reason given :P
10:45<Eddi|zuHause>why did Bluray win over HD-DVD?
10:45<andythenorth>politics :P
10:45<Eddi|zuHause>why did "free market" win over "communism"?
10:46<andythenorth>it did?
10:46*andythenorth missed that :)
10:46<Eddi|zuHause>even in china
10:46<andythenorth>seems to me like 'markets captured by elites' won
10:46<Eddi|zuHause>why did mammals win over dinosaurs?
10:48<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: sometimes the label doesn't accurately describe the content :p
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11:20<Fori>Is this "Town growth can be accelerated by loading and unloading at least one item of cargo at up to five stations within town influence within a two month period. It does not matter which cargos are loaded/unloaded. " still accurate with 1.2?
11:20<Eddi|zuHause>unless you load a GoalScript
11:20<Eddi|zuHause>that can override this behaviour
11:23-!-Fori_DC [] has joined #openttd
11:23<Fori_DC>Uhm, had a DC.
11:23<Fori_DC>Did someone answer me?
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11:24<Eddi|zuHause>yes, unless you load a GoalScript
11:24<Eddi|zuHause>that can override this behaviour
11:25<Fori>Thx Eddi|zuHause
11:25<Fori>One should use timetables for that, huh?
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11:28<Eddi|zuHause>if your vehicle arrives less than every two months, you probably do something wrong
11:30<Fori>I seem to be doing something wrong. It continuesly says "This town doesnt grow."
11:30<Fori>Even though water / food are green and I got some mail trains stopping by from while to while.
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11:34<Eddi|zuHause>can't help you with that
11:38<@planetmaker>maybe you use a game script?
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11:53<Fori>I don't.
11:54<FLHerne>Are you using some strange townset?
11:55<FLHerne>I believe TaI Houses does something to town growth...
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11:56<Fori>I just tested on temperate and made a bus line in town.
11:56<Fori>All good.
11:56<Fori>Seems like my deliveries are not fast enough. Strange.
11:57<Fori>It should be enough when a train catches some mail bags all 2 months. Isnt that right?
11:58<Fori>Now I've seen that there was loading / unloading in these two months but it didnt grow. Strange that is.
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12:06<Sacro>@seen bjarni
12:06<@DorpsGek>Sacro: bjarni was last seen in #openttd 27 weeks, 4 days, 15 hours, 47 minutes, and 11 seconds ago: <Bjarni> heh
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12:12<Fori>@seen Fori
12:12<@DorpsGek>Fori: Fori was last seen in #openttd 13 minutes and 52 seconds ago: <Fori> Now I've seen that there was loading / unloading in these two months but it didnt grow. Strange that is.
12:12<Fori>@seen drac_boy
12:12<@DorpsGek>Fori: drac_boy was last seen in #openttd 17 hours, 26 minutes, and 40 seconds ago: <drac_boy> manual>gameplay>multiplayer
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12:45<supermop>when did this canadian station drama happen? and why?
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12:56<Fori>Eddi|zuHause: Ich found the problem!
12:57<Fori>lol, Ich = I, sorry.
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13:10<Wolf01>hello Terkhen
13:18<andythenorth>lo Terkhen
13:18<andythenorth>did you solve Metal Fabrication Plant? ;)
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13:20<@Alberth>good evenink
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13:21<@Terkhen>andythenorth: yes :P
13:22<andythenorth>it makes metal...stuff
13:23<@Terkhen>something that takes metal and produces "metal" :P
13:23<Eddi|zuHause>there's not enough doctor who in this spring...
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13:30<@Alberth>it should make question marks!
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13:43<@Alberth>a question mark stretching itself :p
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: translators * r24123 /trunk/src/lang/ (afrikaans.txt french.txt slovak.txt):
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: afrikaans - 8 changes by telanus
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: french - 22 changes by OliTTD
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: slovak - 6 changes by teso
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14:16<+michi_cc>Last chance to dig out your old, rusty and forgotten patch! ;)
14:17<NGC3982>i should exclude rusty off my hilight list.
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14:39<Fori>Can I influence how often a town grows? E.g. 100 or 200 days?
14:39<Fori>Cause I got 2 cities and one grows every 100 and the other every 199 days.
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14:46<zxbiohazardzx>quicky question: is there a limit to the ammount of bridges one can have in OTTD?
14:46<zxbiohazardzx>as in different bridge-types, newgrf wise
14:46<@Alberth>less than inifinite?
14:46<frosch123>not yet
14:46<Fori>Alberth: Does that article cover the new changes of 1.2?
14:47<@Alberth>oh bridge types, that something else
14:47<supermop>12 i though?
14:47<@Alberth>Fori: no idea
14:47<zxbiohazardzx>yeah TTDP its 11, but is this hardcoded and can this ammount be raised?
14:48<Fori>I don't think so. That's why I asked here ^^
14:48<@Alberth>Fori: I don't even know exactly what has changed, except that you've got much more control now with a game script
14:48<zxbiohazardzx>in TTDP the number is 11 - if I'm not mistaken. What I've never understood though is why bridges must be identical in both views. Having a different view in the 2nd direction would give us 22 different bridges - assuming we're talking TTDP here. Could the similar number for OTTD be 13/26?
14:48<zxbiohazardzx>thats the question actually
14:48<supermop>would need to be patched
14:49<@Alberth>static const uint MAX_BRIDGES = 13; ///< Maximal number of available bridge specs.
14:50<zxbiohazardzx>hardcoded to 13 because?
14:50<zxbiohazardzx>uint can hold > 13 right?
14:50<@Alberth>newgrf specs????
14:51<@Alberth>historic reasons????
14:51<@Alberth>who knows
14:51<zxbiohazardzx>Alberth stupid specs again? why is it limited to 13 and can this not be altered via a setting or via the newGRFs ???
14:51<zxbiohazardzx>what cpp is that in btw?
14:51<@Alberth>zxbiohazardzx: OpenTTD follows specs, not the other way around :)
14:52<@Alberth>bridge.h file
14:53<zxbiohazardzx>Alberth makes me wonder about those "specs" more and more
14:53<zxbiohazardzx>where are the specs defined, who defined them, and why are they so holy-bile-styled
14:53<supermop>bridge specs need a lot of work
14:54<@Alberth>historically, a lot of them came from the original program and from TTDPatch
14:55<@Alberth>people do make extensions though, eg the 32bpp support
14:55<supermop>more types, custom sprite layout, callbacks to be aware of neighboring bridges, and ability for new grf to determine different sets of bridge type for each way type
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14:58<zxbiohazardzx>supermop yeah custom bridgeheads etc
14:58<zxbiohazardzx>but i was more wondering why it was set to 13
14:58<zxbiohazardzx>and if that limit could be increased to allow more newgrf bridges :P
14:58<supermop>well custom bridgeheads would be have little to do with new grf specs
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14:59<supermop>unless you want to set the property to allow them for each tipe
15:04<zxbiohazardzx>hmmz fair nough
15:04<zxbiohazardzx>lemmy see if spec says anything about those 13 hardcoded number
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15:05<zxbiohazardzx>we already added 2 in OTTD?
15:05<supermop>the tube bridges
15:05<zxbiohazardzx>according to the spec, ID (dec) ID(Hex) has 2 extra ones for OTTD that arent in TTDP
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15:06<zxbiohazardzx>so why would it be impossible to add more / make it more variable?
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15:07<supermop>no one has done it yet
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15:07<supermop>nml doesnt support bridges, but i really want it to
15:07<zxbiohazardzx>well there are bridge renewal sets
15:07<zxbiohazardzx>but im wondering if i want to combine or add more:P
15:07<supermop>but i doubt it will until there is some better agreed upon spec
15:08<zxbiohazardzx>eg grey brick, red brick etc variations
15:08<supermop>those only allow up to 13 too, anc can only use one of the default sprite layouts
15:10<zxbiohazardzx>yes i know they only use 13
15:10<zxbiohazardzx>as the spec lists 13 slots/ids that you can then modify
15:10<zxbiohazardzx>but the main question again is why
15:11<zxbiohazardzx>as the hex gives you at least 15/16 options
15:11<zxbiohazardzx>00 -> 0F
15:11<zxbiohazardzx>and we use 00-> 0C
15:12<andythenorth>maybe the higher parts of the byte are used for something else
15:12<@planetmaker>well, the current approach won't be extended to further IDs. The next extension would need to be real NewGRF bridges with action0 etc
15:12<@planetmaker>just adding new IDs which need hard-coding is not a good thing
15:12<zxbiohazardzx>@Planetmaker thats the question
15:12<andythenorth>or maybe there were only 13 original bridges
15:12<zxbiohazardzx>if i have sprites for lets say 26 or more bridges
15:12<zxbiohazardzx>how would that work ingame?
15:12<@planetmaker>andythenorth: there were 11. And 2 added
15:12<zxbiohazardzx>do i get 13 and the rest gets cut out?
15:12<zxbiohazardzx>11 original, 2 got added indeed
15:13<@planetmaker>zxbiohazardzx: with a newgrf support, you would get more. Whatever then is the allowed amount of bridges ;-)
15:13<zxbiohazardzx>planetmaker i recon that support is not in?
15:13<@Alberth>zxbiohazardzx: somewhere along the path from source to loaded in openttd, you'd lose 13 currently
15:14<@planetmaker>oh, it's a very nice thing. But it does not yet exist nor even a patch (that I know of)
15:14<zxbiohazardzx>bridge-types not ammount of total bridges ingame
15:14<zxbiohazardzx>so yeah Planetmaker hardcoded is the limit atm
15:14<@Alberth>zxbiohazardzx: if it exists, it would be in the newgrf spec
15:14<zxbiohazardzx>would it not be an idea to add 3 empty/dummy slots that newgrfs can overwrite as they do now?
15:14<zxbiohazardzx>newGRF spec lists 00-> 0C ids
15:14<@planetmaker>it's actually not even a limit. It's an exact amount of bridge types. Though you can change availability date to reduce bridge types available
15:15<zxbiohazardzx>so afaik you can add 0D,0E,0F to at least fill it up Hex
15:15<zxbiohazardzx>planetmaker, total bridge renewal etc do change the ammount?
15:15<@planetmaker>zxbiohazardzx: no, that's not an idea
15:15<@planetmaker>as the sprites need hard-coding, too
15:15<@Alberth>zxbiohazardzx: as said by planetmaker, it is a wrong direction.
15:15<@planetmaker>as does the sprite layout
15:15<@planetmaker>not good
15:16<@planetmaker>and hard-coding invisible sprites so that they *might* be replaced... urgs
15:16<@planetmaker>then someone just changes availability.. and voila :-)
15:16<@Alberth>finally an invisible bridge :p
15:16<@planetmaker>invisible bridges
15:18<@Alberth>zxbiohazardzx: in other words, we need a new newgrf spec for bridges :p
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15:20<zxbiohazardzx>haha so the un-change able spec needs a change
15:21<@Alberth>an extension :p
15:21<@planetmaker>no change. As usual an extension. In a similar manner as vehicles, houses, industries
15:22<zxbiohazardzx>and then in theory the ammount of bridges and the design/lenght/spriteuseperlenght will all move to the GRF?
15:22<zxbiohazardzx>as all those are linked
15:24<andythenorth>spec can be extended
15:24<andythenorth>existing stuff can't be changed :(
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15:24<@planetmaker>there'll be a maximum amount of allowed bridge types. Not sure how high that can be, that dependso n the free bits in the map array
15:24<@planetmaker>but the actually available bridges will be then newgrf-determined as the other stuff
15:25<@planetmaker>the 13 default bridges still would be there, unless made unavailable or also changed by the newgrf. So yes
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15:26<Eddi|zuHause>bridge availability depending on railtype would be nice
15:27<Eddi|zuHause>don't offer 400km/h bridges for an 80km/h railtype
15:27<zxbiohazardzx>alot of good features relate to it :P
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15:29<zxbiohazardzx>now the next question
15:29<zxbiohazardzx>in relation to patches etc, how hard is it to modify the spec to accept above idea's ?:P
15:30<andythenorth>about as hard as patching in some cases
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15:30<andythenorth>in other cases, modiying the spec is much harder than patching
15:30<zxbiohazardzx>i cant even patch :P but i was just wondering in general :P
15:31<zxbiohazardzx>my coding skills end after the interwebs & a bit of java
15:33<@Alberth>getting some agreement on the new spec is a challenge enough for now, I think ;)
15:34<zxbiohazardzx>Alberth well as i mentioned, there is more then just changing the number of bridges
15:34<andythenorth>good luck :P
15:34<zxbiohazardzx>as Eddi suggested, availability depending on railtype etc would also be part of that i guess?
15:34<zxbiohazardzx>and i know 0.0 of what that new spec would have to contain
15:35<zxbiohazardzx>i just suggested something in the IRC or asked about it :P
15:35<@Alberth>zxbiohazardzx: yes, so making a spec is non-trivial, and getting agreement on them is more complicated
15:36<Rhamphoryncus>.. oi, I just realized 1.2.0 has been released :P
15:36<@Alberth>someone woke up :D
15:36<+michi_cc>Rhamphoryncus: It's going to be outdated in a minute :p
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15:37<drac_boy>how're you Alberth?
15:38<zxbiohazardzx>i gotta go :(
15:38<zxbiohazardzx>ill keep this in mind though :P
15:38<zxbiohazardzx>thx alberth&planet for answering :)
15:38<@Alberth>bye zxbiohazardzx :)
15:39<@Alberth>drac_boy: happy, /me has 0x28 in the RCD data file :p
15:42<@Alberth>Roller Coaster Data file, in my freerct project :)
15:43<CIA-1>OpenTTD: michi_cc * r24124 /trunk/src/ (engine_type.h vehicle.cpp): -Add [FS#4658]: [NewGRF] Misc engine flag to disable breakdown smoke. (Hirundo)
15:43<CIA-1>OpenTTD: michi_cc * r24125 /trunk/src/group_gui.cpp: -Add [FS#3705]: Drag destination highlighting to the group GUI. (sbr)
15:43<@Alberth>the bad news is now that I have to load that value again in my program, and I don't have code for it yet
15:43<CIA-1>OpenTTD: michi_cc * r24126 /trunk/src/newgrf_gui.cpp: -Feature [FS#3854]: Drag and drop support for the NewGRF list window. (Based on patch by sbr)
15:43<CIA-1>OpenTTD: michi_cc * r24127 /trunk/src/ (16 files in 6 dirs): -Feature [FS#1497]: Allow closing airports for incoming aircraft. (Based on patch by cirdan)
15:43<CIA-1>OpenTTD: michi_cc * r24128 /trunk/src/vehicle.cpp: -Change: Don't let vehicles break down directly after servicing.
15:43<CIA-1>OpenTTD: michi_cc * r24129 /trunk/src/ (6 files in 3 dirs): -Feature [FS#3660]: Option to minimise signal distance when dragging over obstacles. (adf88)
15:43<CIA-1>OpenTTD: michi_cc * r24130 /trunk/src/rail_gui.cpp: -Feature(ette): [FS#2314]: Deselect 'remove' button when changing signal types in the GUI. (Alberth)
15:43<CIA-1>OpenTTD: michi_cc * r24131 /trunk/src/ (company_gui.cpp lang/english.txt): -Add [FS#1952]: Ctrl-Clicking to change colour of all colour schemes at once. (Roest)
15:43<CIA-1>OpenTTD: michi_cc * r24132 /trunk/src/ (genworld.cpp landscape.cpp misc.cpp saveload/afterload.cpp): -Change [FS#4713]: Improve randomness of tile order in the tile loop. (monoid)
15:43<CIA-1>OpenTTD: michi_cc * r24133 /trunk/src/ (currency.cpp currency.h lang/english.txt): -Add [FS#4984]: Lithuanian currency. (devastator)
15:43<CIA-1>OpenTTD: michi_cc * r24134 /trunk/src/ (8 files in 4 dirs): -Add: Configurable limits for tree planting.
15:43<CIA-1>OpenTTD: michi_cc * r24135 /trunk/src/tree_gui.cpp: -Remove [FS#4757]: Tree drag size limit.
15:44<CIA-1>OpenTTD: michi_cc * r24136 /trunk/src/ (14 files in 4 dirs): -Feature [FS#4465]: Autoreplace vehicles only when they get old. (Vikthor)
15:44<CIA-1>OpenTTD: michi_cc * r24137 /trunk/src/build_vehicle_gui.cpp: -Feature(ette): Draw indicator icon in the replace vehicle window for vehicles which have a replacement set.
15:44<drac_boy>hmm alberth whats freerct supposed to do?
15:44<CIA-1>OpenTTD: michi_cc * r24138 /trunk/src/ (group_cmd.cpp group_gui.cpp): -Feature(ette): Ctrl+drag to add all vehicles with a shared order list to a group. (Juanjo)
15:44<CIA-1>OpenTTD: michi_cc * r24139 /trunk/src/ (5 files in 2 dirs): -Add: Creating a new vehicle group by drag and drop. (Based on patch by Juanjo)
15:44<CIA-1>OpenTTD: michi_cc * r24140 /trunk/src/ (52 files in 3 dirs): -Add [FS#1117]: Group name in the replace vehicle window caption. (Juanjo)
15:44<CIA-1>OpenTTD: michi_cc * r24141 /trunk/ (8 files in 4 dirs): -Feature: Display rating in the town directory window. (Inspired by patch from MagicBuzz)
15:44<CIA-1>OpenTTD: michi_cc * r24142 /trunk/src/vehicle.cpp: -Feature [FS#3576]: Randomise count of passengers killed in a crash. (riffraffselbow)
15:44<@Alberth>drac_boy: open source variant of a well know rollercaster tycoon program :)
15:44<CIA-1>OpenTTD: michi_cc * r24143 /trunk/src/rail_cmd.cpp: -Change [FS#5145]: Improve fence placement for rail. (Eddi)
15:44<CIA-1>OpenTTD: michi_cc * r24144 /trunk/src/rail_gui.cpp: -Change [FS#4605]: Reset 'convert signal' button when signal GUI is closed. (yorick)
15:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: michi_cc * r24145 /trunk/src/settings.cpp: -Cleanup: Switch coding style.
15:45<andythenorth>ho ho
15:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: michi_cc * r24146 /trunk/src/settings.cpp: -Fix [FS#5153]: Use default value when reading an invalid setting value. (Eddi)
15:45<drac_boy>alberth hmm what kind of system requirement?
15:45<+michi_cc>Rhamphoryncus: See, outdated :p
15:45<@Alberth>there is no stopping michi_cc, andythenorth :)
15:45<andythenorth>it's a spree
15:46<+michi_cc>Now I have to close all those tickets :( :p
15:46<andythenorth>close airports
15:46<@Alberth>drac_boy: currently it only builds from source, at a linux system, if you have python 2.7
15:46<@Alberth>michi_cc: ask TB for an automagic close-on-commit :p
15:47<@Alberth>drac_boy: but there is nothing moving yet :)
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15:48<drac_boy>Alberth hmm so probably just as low resource more or less like the original one?
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15:48<@Alberth>hopefully, but I don't really design on that
15:49<@Alberth>first it needs to move, and get playable
15:51<drac_boy>Alberth well if it'll work smoothy with a full&busy park on a P3 I don't see any problem in it hopefully catching on big time
15:51<andythenorth>there's only one Alberth :)
15:51<andythenorth>he needs a network effect ;)
15:52<drac_boy>mind you I know I've changed computers by then but the only reason I never ever got to rct2 was because when I tried the demo I found that it always ran rather sputterly even for small parks
15:52<drac_boy>andythenorth heh
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15:53<@Alberth>andythenorth: indeed, any good in Python hacking? :p
15:53-!-Pixa [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
15:53<andythenorth>Alberth: ask pixa
15:54<@Alberth>bummer, he just left :(
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16:02<@Alberth>good night all
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16:03<oskari89>michi_cc: Did those features go to 1.2.1?
16:04<oskari89>They are going in 1.3x or so?
16:04<+michi_cc>Yes, trunk is 1.3 now.
16:05<oskari89>Even more new features than that? :)
16:09<@Terkhen>trunk = new stuff
16:09<Zuu>Warning: I just posted a very silly GS interface idea :-)
16:10<Zuu>(in the NoGo thread)
16:10<drac_boy>zuu where? :)
16:10<Zuu>its in the development forum
16:10<Zuu>It maybe should be moved to the AI/NoGo subforum now, but that is up to the moderators to decide.
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16:18<Zuu>r24124 just killed the need for CluelessPlus to build service airports (for sending aircrafts there when upgrading airports). At least if that change included an AI api function.
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16:20<+michi_cc>If you meant 24127, you're lucky.
16:20<Zuu>Yep, I ment 24127, I was too happy to see the commit sphere to type the correct number. :-)
16:21<CIA-1>OpenTTD: michi_cc * r24147 /trunk/bin/ai/regression/regression.txt: -Fix (r24132): AI regression output.
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16:56<frosch123>Zuu: wrt. fs#5151. the crash is related to in-game switching of blitters
16:57<frosch123>so, it only happens if you do not enforce a particular blitter with the -b or blitter options
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16:57<Rubidium>and only on windows
16:57<Zuu>hmm, so I should actually not set the blitter in openttd.cfg to the one that the crash reporter used in order to reproduce it.
16:58-!-zooks [] has joined #openttd
16:59<Zuu>assuming that 8bbp is still the default one.
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17:04<FLHerne>Is that bug Windows-specific?
17:04<Eddi|zuHause>win64 specific, iirc
17:05<Zuu>64bit windows specific as far as we know now.
17:05<@Terkhen>I only managed to reproduce it with win x64
17:06<FLHerne>Thought I hadn't encountered it :P
17:07<FLHerne>I did get this one though:
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17:16<drac_boy>btw is 'willing to entertain on price' right or was there a different wording I should be thinking of? its for an ad post
17:17<FLHerne>That doesn't make a lot of sense to me :P
17:17<supermop>hey Eddi|zuHause, does your post mean that the fence thing is in trunk?
17:17<drac_boy>FLHerne heh any idea how to say that you're flexible on the price rather than the one you listed?
17:18<Eddi|zuHause>supermop: there's an easy way to find that out...
17:18<TWerkhoven[l]>reasonable offers accepted?
17:18<drac_boy>hm thanks TWerkhoven[l]
17:18<FLHerne>Now [i]that[/i] makes sense to me :D
17:18<drac_boy>ok posted :)
17:19*FLHerne waits for someone to invent IRC with markup that works :P
17:19<FLHerne>Oh, and more smilies :-)
17:19<drac_boy>FLHerne nope, thats not text so not going to happen
17:20<TWerkhoven[l]>it could, but parsign would have to happen clientside
17:21<TWerkhoven[l]>im sure theres clients out there (java mostly) that will change smileys into graphics
17:22<Rubidium>which is incredibly annoucing when you're talking about code
17:22<drac_boy>Rubidium yeah theres that :p
17:22<Rubidium>(or for someone that uses parenthesis)
17:23<Rubidium>any 'respectible' text-to-smiley code would introduce at least two smileys there
17:24<TWerkhoven[l]>no, thats just the crap version, to be called respectible it would have to filter out common parenthesis usage
17:25<FLHerne>My IRC client already parses smilies :P
17:25<FLHerne>Just not enough variations...
17:26<FLHerne>Standardised client-side parsing of markup would actually be possible, wouldn't it?
17:26<FLHerne>'Standardised' being the issue, I guess
17:28<Rubidium>pff... standards.
17:28<Rubidium>the standard is pretty clear about the markup
17:28<Rubidium>only everyone decides to make custom additions to that standard
17:29<drac_boy>four ads posted so far
17:29<drac_boy>wouldn't be surprised if I could clear all four out this week too :)
17:30<@Terkhen>good night
17:30<drac_boy>bye Terkhen
17:30<FLHerne>'night Terkhen
17:30<FLHerne>drac_boy: four of what?
17:31<Eddi|zuHause>in KDE you can configure the smilies
17:32*Rubidium claims the Zzzz smiley
17:32<FLHerne>I'm using KDE :P
17:33<FLHerne>It's all shiny, and widgety, and ooh, I can make that section both semi-transparent [i]and[/i] animated! :D
17:33<drac_boy>FLHerne you need to read the whole line silly :p
17:33<FLHerne>I did
17:33<TWerkhoven[l]>dont forget the blink tag
17:33<drac_boy>well you probably didn't to be asking such question :P
17:33<FLHerne>Then I went off on a random tangent for no reason...
17:34<FLHerne>clear all four ads out?
17:34*FLHerne gets baffled again
17:39<CIA-1>OpenTTD: michi_cc * r24148 /trunk/src/ (currency.cpp currency.h lang/english.txt): -Add [FS#4907]: South Korean and South African currencies. (PaulC)
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17:42<NGC3982>i wonder
17:42<NGC3982>how can a train like the CC 40100 achieve speeds like 240km/h?
17:42<NGC3982>doesnt look that aerodynamic? :E
17:43<drac_boy>actually it is...its more or less flat except on the front .. and from the sizing of the middle its probably got a lot of hp
17:44<TWerkhoven[l]>aerodynamics isnt everything, though it sure helps
17:44<Eddi|zuHause>it says 160km/h on wikipedia
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17:48<TWerkhoven[l]>french one sais 160/240kmh, but also 2 different kw outputs
17:49<NGC3982>sure, aerodynamics isnt everything. though, i thought speeds like that required a more ..not that flat faced form.
17:50<TWerkhoven[l]>maybe it depends on the line voltage, as it can draw 4 different voltages
17:51<TWerkhoven[l]>anyway, bedtime for me
17:51<NGC3982>night :)
17:52<Eddi|zuHause>voltage is really only relevant for DC
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17:57<drac_boy>eddi actually not quite true. theres low voltage ac as well
17:57<drac_boy>they're in small number tho of course
17:58<drac_boy>probably ever smaller for old dual-pantograph systems too (although the london system still uses the 3rd+4th rail version of this I recall)
17:59<Eddi|zuHause>drac_boy: i meant: you can draw the same amount of power in low and high voltage AC
18:00<Eddi|zuHause>lower voltage may mean slightly more losses over distance
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18:00<Eddi|zuHause>but you need smaller security distance
18:01<Eddi|zuHause>but in DC, you can't make the current arbitrarily high, so you only have pretty much linear dependency between voltage and power
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18:01<Eddi|zuHause>P = U*I
18:02<FLHerne><(although the london system still uses the 3rd+4th rail version of this I recall)> London is DC. Maybe I misunderstood you again though...
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18:06<drac_boy>FLHerne some of the double panto systems were dc too mind you
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18:11<NGC3982>my word
18:12<NGC3982>when i get my own garden, forget the garden gnomes
18:12<NGC3982>ill get a uac turbo train.
18:12<drac_boy>NGC3982 heh why? you'll need a large yard for something approaching express-like speeds :)
18:14<NGC3982>i dont want it running
18:14<drac_boy>oh outdoor display model?
18:14<NGC3982>i just want it to sit there, in its yellow glory.
18:14<drac_boy>hmm so the question then would be...what kind of set makeup and in which livery then? :)
18:14<NGC3982>and i feel quite serious. even though i dont know that much about trains (yet), i feel compelled to create my own museum.
18:15<NGC3982>drac_boy: i have no idea.
18:16<drac_boy>NGC3982 well I asked because it varied between 3-car (only one intermidate coach yeah) up to a bit over ten cars
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18:16<NGC3982>oh, i have no clue
18:17<NGC3982>i just want the end.
18:17<NGC3982>or at least the engine
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18:17<drac_boy>thats not much of a train then :p
18:17<drac_boy>especially with half of its truck missing :)
18:19<drac_boy>if you really need a single-unit something, model that one modified rail speed record setting budd rdc with the two red/gray jet engines on its roof :)
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18:34<drac_boy>NGC3982 btw also try look up the Xplorer from C&O .. it was supposed to be 'the' next generation passenger train .. lighter and lower gravity (it was pretty much the usa version of talgo concept yeah)
18:34<drac_boy>did not have a good life tho. one of the major ops was not ordering the rear locomotive unit so the tail always rode a bit harsh :-s
18:35<drac_boy>a different New haven version with more conservative nose did actually have a loco at both ends..but again short life mainly from one thing - it caught fire on the press run, not so much fun :-/
18:36<drac_boy>these two were the only known lightweight trainset in usa afaik
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18:43<drac_boy>NGC3982 you probably could still do a tgv locomotive .. they were seperated end units (from the articulated consist) anyhow
18:43<drac_boy>although whether you want to do the well known electric one or the one-off gas turbine one is up to you :)
18:43<drac_boy>same livery for both tho
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19:12<V453000>hm, how do I remove an AI company? :D
19:13<V453000>ERROR: Company is owned by an AI. on reset_company :D
19:14<Mazur>rcon stop_ai <company_slot>
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19:17<Zuu>Don't forget to also reduce the company count in difficulty settings, if you don't want a new AI to start soon.
19:18<Mazur>Or unset ai_in multiplayer
19:18<Mazur>Which had already been done.
19:21<Zuu>requires that you have a MP game, but I guess you do :-)
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20:27<Rhamphoryncus>"Change: Don't let vehicles break down directly after servicing." <-- sounds pretty significant
20:28<drac_boy>Rhamphoryncus yeah especially when you have a train that dumps black smoke a few pixels outside the depot :p
20:28<drac_boy>these were always a bit silly to see
20:28<Rhamphoryncus>But that should influence servicing in general
20:28<Rhamphoryncus>Not just when they leave the depot
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20:38<+michi_cc>Rhamphoryncus: It's hopefully significant :) It is not an absolute limit though, as the breakdown code is highly randomised, it just decreases the chance a lot.
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20:38<Rhamphoryncus>aye. I'll have to check out the behaviour later
20:39<Rhamphoryncus>After I finish beating hg rebase into submission :P
20:40<+michi_cc>It should be a lot less annoying as long as the engine has a decent reliability. If you have a totally outdated engine with like 30% reliability even directly after servicing it won't change much :)
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20:53*drac_boy probably is not going to understand this thing with computer plugs
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21:00*Rhamphoryncus kicks hg in the nads
21:01<Rhamphoryncus>I now have a commit it claims michi_cc did :P
21:06<Rhamphoryncus>wait.. it did that because my commit includes a change from him. It mixed them. Proper corruption that. :P
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21:48<Rhamphoryncus>openttd is bitching about missing sprites in the base set. I already downloaded an updated opengfx via the content manager. Is it loading the wrong one or is opengfx not caught up with openttd yet?
21:51*drac_boy actually wishes the patch would quit erroring about the useless base grf that isn't needed
21:51<drac_boy>but -_-
21:51*Rhamphoryncus looks at his generated town
21:52<Rhamphoryncus>junkyard, dairy, petrol pump, aluminium plant, and grain mill in or immediately adjacent to it. Furniture factory and cement plant within another 10 tiles. And it's on the edge of the water
21:54<Rhamphoryncus>oops, builders yard too
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22:04<drac_boy>heh sounds odd :)
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22:10<Rhamphoryncus>To be fair I only have 2 cities, so some of those are pretty likely to happen.. but others are a complete fluke
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22:25*Rhamphoryncus wonders how his currency got changed to lithuanian litas
22:27<Rhamphoryncus>I need to make a new title game just to shut up that whistle
22:31<Mazur>Or mut OTTDs audio.
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---Logclosed Wed Apr 18 00:00:25 2012