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#openttd IRC Logs for 2012-04-22

---Logopened Sun Apr 22 00:00:34 2012
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02:22<andythenorth>bongiorno
02:22<Nat_aS>hi
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02:42<andythenorth>industry tile 'animation_info' - the frame_count parameter is exact?
02:43<andythenorth>it's not a frame number, zero-indexed or other things that would cause unexpected results?
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03:50<@Alberth>moin
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04:02<@Terkhen>good morning
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04:18<NGC3982>top o' the mornin lads
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04:38<Wolf01>hello
04:41<@Alberth>hello
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06:15<drac_boy>hi
06:15<@Alberth>hi
06:16<drac_boy>how're you?
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06:25<@Alberth>pretty good, and you?
06:25<drac_boy>doing ok, just trying to look a bit into laptops again. hopefully finding something this time -_-
06:26<drac_boy>not much progress to say on my grf project atm tho :p
06:28*drac_boy just wanted a simple laptop for daily work on the go
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06:36<@Alberth>don't set requirements, and you're done in about 10 minutes ;)
06:37<drac_boy>Alberth problem is...if you do that you're going to end up with something that can't do more than notes taking which isn't even a laptop at all
06:37<drac_boy>:)
06:38<@Alberth>hmm, not good :(
06:41<drac_boy>yeah..so need to pick something :)
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06:47<drac_boy>what you doing now Alberth?
06:47<@Alberth>answering your highlight :p
06:48<drac_boy>heh so being lazy? :P
06:48<@Alberth>I am deciding how to break up a patch into a patch-sequence
06:50<@Alberth>trouble is I wrote that patch a month ago, so trying to remember its structure at the same time :)
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06:53<drac_boy>have fun :p
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07:34<@Alberth>o/ andy
07:35<andythenorth>hi hi
07:38<andythenorth>so....drawing railtypes *over* a station tile
07:38<andythenorth>what stops it?
07:38<andythenorth>because the method of drawing the station as overlays on the track is bonkers and provably broken
07:39<drac_boy>heh
07:39<planetmaker>andythenorth: railtypes *are* drawn on top...
07:39<drac_boy>always finding something to break every single hour are you? :P
07:40<andythenorth>hmm
07:40<planetmaker>or what in particular do you mean?
07:40<andythenorth>that means CHIPS is doing it wrong
07:40<andythenorth>I found this issue recently...others are reporting it too
07:40<andythenorth>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/2844/chips_pikka_tracks.png
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07:40<planetmaker>yexo surely knows it better than me. But iirc it's like "ground tile, station background, rail track, station foreground"
07:41<andythenorth>iirc 'ground tile' has to be the magic 'track' tile
07:41<planetmaker>no
07:41<planetmaker>but you might want to define a building part (which is also ground)
07:41<planetmaker>maybe
07:41<andythenorth>I can fix the issue by making the overlays bigger - like so (mud): http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/2845/chips_pikka_tracks_2.png
07:41<planetmaker>but I should shut up before I talk bullshit
07:41<andythenorth>but then they start to overlap default tracks http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/2846/chips_pikka_tracks_3.png
07:42<andythenorth>if anyone wants to do broad gauge, this is all going to fail horribly
07:42<andythenorth>planetmaker: I haven't read the spec either :P
07:42<andythenorth>at least, not recently enough to remember it properly
07:42*drac_boy is at least doing narrow rails thankfully
07:42<drac_boy>tunnel portals is one small issue I need to check yet tho
07:43<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: code the gravel as ground tile, not as platform?
07:44<andythenorth>lets see
07:44<planetmaker>oh, I thought it was laready coded as ground
07:44<planetmaker>of course you'll want that
07:45<planetmaker>it *is* a ground tile after all :-)
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07:51<andythenorth>hmm
07:51<andythenorth>hacking at it did solve it :P
07:51<andythenorth>didn't /s
08:03<andythenorth>hmm
08:04<andythenorth>so there must be a sprite number that returns 'current railtype sprite' for each angle
08:05<andythenorth>the newgrf specs make absolutely no sense to me
08:05<andythenorth>they may as well be written directly in nfo, undocumented
08:05*andythenorth looks for railtype code :P
08:10<Eddi|zuHause>station specs are always somewhat of a mystery
08:10<frosch123>planetmaker: it's grass, rail overlay, station stuff
08:10<Eddi|zuHause>that's why nml doesn't suppor them yet
08:10<planetmaker>frosch123: but... the grass is a groud tile which can be defined by the layout?
08:11<planetmaker>*ground
08:11<frosch123>no, the layout must use the default rail sprite, which ottd then replaces by grass + overlay
08:11<planetmaker>or is it really the grass?
08:11<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: but is the rail overlay also drawn for the default rail type?
08:11<planetmaker>oh, meh
08:11<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: no, then it draws only the original rail sprite
08:12<andythenorth>frosch123: so it is the magic sprite number? (I forget the number :P )
08:12*andythenorth was reading src/ to figure it out; src makes a lot more sense than newgrf wiki for stations :/
08:12<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: i guess what andy needs is "draw grass" - "draw gravel" - "draw rail" - "draw platform stuff"
08:12<Eddi|zuHause>for old and new railtypes alike
08:13<andythenorth>[me and every other station set that needs to work with railtypes]
08:13<andythenorth>it's similar issue to the tram-crossings issue too
08:13<frosch123>well, not possible currently, and not easily done :)
08:14<andythenorth>so the answer is "don't use pikka's tracks" :P
08:15<V453000>thanks for the response Eddi :) already found that yesterday, I apparently need to read more than just NML documentation :)
08:15<Eddi|zuHause>V453000: what response?
08:15<planetmaker>Sad but true: yes, that can help.
08:15<V453000>the univ railtype in nuts thread
08:16<Eddi|zuHause>ah, right
08:16<Eddi|zuHause>question: is setting the compatible/powered rail type list "cumulative"?
08:17<Eddi|zuHause>i.e. if different grfs set it to different values, will one overwrite the other, or will both lists be combined?
08:17<+michi_cc>This is probably some kind of blasphemy, but IMNSHO the new finescale tracks look too fuzzy and bumpy.
08:17<Eddi|zuHause>e.g. if two track sets modify the "RAIL" railtype
08:18<+michi_cc>Eddi|zuHause: Yes, they are all cumulative (which the specs state) :)
08:18<Eddi|zuHause>fine. one less problem to worry about :)
08:19<andythenorth>michi_cc: don't tell pikka, but I might agree :
08:19<andythenorth>:o
08:20<andythenorth>I thought of something else wrt industry prod change on build
08:20<andythenorth>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=1009857#p1009857
08:20<+michi_cc>They would probably look quite good a 2x zoom if they had sprites forthat.
08:20<andythenorth>^^ possible extension to spec, dunno if it's needed. Could be added later?
08:23<andythenorth>basically allow cb 15F to also set 'last month production' when industry is built
08:23<andythenorth>for sets using production cb for primary industry, the industry window / list might have very wrong production values during first month of play
08:26<Eddi|zuHause>shouldn't that value default to 0?
08:27<frosch123>would be stupid on map generation
08:28<andythenorth>currently defaults to 8 * prod_rate[n]
08:28<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: those values would be filled during the "run a few ticks" phase?
08:29<frosch123>we likely fail for ecs :p
08:29<frosch123>*would
08:29<andythenorth>it's not been a massive source of problems so far :)
08:29<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: since that is purely aesthetic, it would be easy to change
08:29*andythenorth assumes ECS uses production cb for primary production
08:30<andythenorth>[FIRS doesn't]
08:30<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: the question is whether the industry's state is messed up when the production is called, but the date does not advance
08:30<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: but if prod_rate the return value of cb 15E, then where is the problem?
08:31<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: not sure I understand the question exactly? :)
08:31<andythenorth>15F would return prod_level
08:32<Eddi|zuHause>that i meant
08:32<andythenorth>prod_rate[n] for previous month is recalculated when cb 15F is called...
08:32<andythenorth>but the recalculation assumes industry is not using production cb to produce cargo
08:32<andythenorth>that's an unsafe assumption :P
08:33<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: but the GRF author knows that, and take that into account?
08:33<andythenorth>currently?
08:33<andythenorth>grf author does nothing currently :P
08:33<Eddi|zuHause>ideally :)
08:33<andythenorth>nor has anyone moaned about it so far afaik
08:33<andythenorth>simply running the production cb when cb15F is called is one option, but highly unsafe imho :
08:34<andythenorth>production cb can do all kinds of things with storage that might not be valid during cb 15F
08:34<Eddi|zuHause>i don't understand the problem. callback 15F is called exactly once for the industry. and the grf author knows whether production callback is used for his industry.
08:35<andythenorth>hmm
08:35<Eddi|zuHause>so he can simply return a "sane" value for 15F
08:35<andythenorth>yes
08:35<Eddi|zuHause>no need for production callback
08:35<andythenorth>but isn't there a proposal somewhere above to also run the production cb at game start (or on cb 15F)?
08:36<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: we might be arguing same side of the case :P
08:36<andythenorth>my proposal is: if author cares about last month production, allow them to return a value for that
08:36<andythenorth>they have to calculate it themselves
08:36<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: i don't understand what you want to _add_ as functionality, because all use cases i already see as possible with the current implementation
08:37<andythenorth>you see the case for cb15F though?
08:37<andythenorth>to set prod_level?
08:37<Eddi|zuHause>set initial production, initialize storage, ...
08:37<Eddi|zuHause>yes
08:38<andythenorth>k
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08:38<Eddi|zuHause>but returning previous production separately makes only sense if you have a case where it should differ from current production...
08:39<andythenorth>yes
08:39<andythenorth>that's the case
08:39<Eddi|zuHause>then you have not explained it properly yet
08:39<andythenorth>current production is determined as:
08:39<andythenorth> this->production_rate[0] = min(CeilDiv(indspec->production_rate[0] * this->prod_level, PRODLEVEL_DEFAULT), 0xFF);
08:40<andythenorth>hmm - ignore that one :P
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08:42<andythenorth>k here we go. I was searching src, for my new code, but I'd reverted it all :P
08:42<andythenorth> i->last_month_production[0] = i->production_rate[0] * 8;
08:42<andythenorth>^ that simply doesn't hold for industries where author uses production cb
08:42<andythenorth>it could be wildly wrong
08:42<andythenorth>so the production in industry list would be misleading
08:43<andythenorth>which will cause players to build the wrong routes
08:43<andythenorth>which is annoying to them ;)
08:43<andythenorth>[for the first month only]
08:43<andythenorth>I don't have this case in FIRS, dunno about ECS, so might be a straw man case :P
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08:45<andythenorth>can't find any FS about it
08:47<andythenorth>strikes me it could be added to cb 15F later if someone *does* need it
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08:53<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: but i still understand it. what use is prod_level if you use production callback? so what prevents you from returning a "fake" production level then?
08:53<Eddi|zuHause>+don't
08:53<andythenorth>k
08:54<andythenorth>it doesn't meet the case where you vary cargo 0 and cargo 1 according to [some rules]
08:54<andythenorth>but otherwise yes, I see your point and am +1
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08:56<andythenorth>I'll add a comment on the thread about it
08:59<andythenorth>so ignore that case. Any other cases that should be met? :)
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09:53<Skau1>hi, question about openTTD.. are there any way to store for example oil?
09:53<Skau1>like if i have a ship traveling a far distance to get oil, can i store the oil so that trains can pick it up?
09:54<@Alberth>oh, yes, they are called transfer orders
09:54<Skau1>yeah, ive been using them
09:54<@Alberth>read about feeder systems at the wiki
09:54<Skau1>but if it unloads to a trainstation
09:54<Skau1>it will just pick it back up if there are no trains waiting
09:54*Alberth nods
09:54<@Alberth>do 'no loading' :)
09:55<Skau1>and then the oil will just stay on the track waiting for the train?
09:55<@Alberth>ie unloading and loading are completely separated, so you need to specify both
09:55<@Alberth>at the station actually, but yes
09:55<@Alberth>except it decays if you don't provide good enough service
09:56<frosch123>someone knows the dutch furniture set?
09:57<frosch123>wth are "matrix activators"?
09:57<Skau1>Alberth: how so?
09:57<@Alberth>to prevent you from storing oil forever at the station
09:57<Skau1>ah
09:58<Skau1>so it just dissapears after a while?
09:58<@Alberth>if you don't pick it up regularly, yes
09:58<frosch123>it gets slowly stolen if the rating is below 25% or so
09:58<frosch123>(not sure about the exact number)
09:59<Skau1>ok sweet, thanks.. i should have know to use "no unloading" .. dunno why i didnt think of that :P
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09:59<@Alberth>frosch123: http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matrixbord ?
09:59<Skau1>tbh.. airtraffic is way too easy to earn money on imo
10:00<@Alberth>Skau1: the map you use is too large
10:00<Skau1>i cant ever lose money after ive set up like 10 planes carrying 300 people
10:00<Skau1>back and forth
10:00<Skau1>or 400..
10:00<Skau1>i just keep populating the two cities and keep adding more planes
10:01<@Alberth>original game was on 256x256, and perhaps the aircraft were smaller too
10:01<@Alberth>that's why the reduced speed was introduced
10:01<Skau1>we're playing multiplayer on a 1024x1024 map i think
10:01<@Alberth>but many servers don't even enable aircraft
10:02<Skau1>still, you can earn alot by just traveling from one side of the map to another
10:02<Skau1>with trains
10:02<@Alberth>so you have 16 times as much map, so you also get 16 times as much money
10:02<@Alberth>(not entirely, but as an optimistic upperbound) :)
10:03<Skau1>so bigger map should also use diffrent settings to balance stuff?
10:03<drac_boy>Skau1 play with a relastic basecost parameters basically
10:04<Skau1>we're thinking of restarting anyway because i just started playign yesterday.. so i wanted to learn stuff before we started something serious
10:04<drac_boy>you'll never get away with lots of jetplanes on my games ever, unless you had more than 100 million DEM to go through first
10:04<drac_boy>;)
10:04<Skau1>non of us know alot about this game
10:04<Skau1>DEM?
10:04<@Alberth>Deutsch Mark :)
10:05<planetmaker>I'd not recognize DEM as its abbreviation, tbh
10:05<planetmaker>More common was "DM"
10:05<planetmaker>A DEM is for me a digital elevation model :-P
10:05<@Alberth>:)
10:07<Skau1>or.. really.. we dont have that much money
10:07<Skau1>ive got 1,300,900,000 NOK now
10:07<Skau1>1GBP = 12 NOK ish
10:08<Skau1>i think..
10:08<Skau1>since when you have loan your company is worht 12NOK which i think means £1
10:11<@Alberth>@calc 1300900000 / 12
10:11<@DorpsGek>Alberth: 108408333.333
10:11<@Alberth>it's more :)
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10:12<NGC3982>hm
10:12<NGC3982>still no new news about how they manage to collide the trains in amsterdam?
10:13<NGC3982>im qurious on how on earth it could happend in the first place.
10:15<andythenorth>systems go wrong
10:15<@Alberth>two trains wanted to be at the same point at the world, at the same point in time
10:15<NGC3982>tcms?
10:15<andythenorth>not a great explanation, but a true one :P
10:15<Skau1>if you have more than one depot
10:15<NGC3982>looking at the pictures tells me someone tried to brake.
10:15<Skau1>in your order list
10:15<Skau1>will it choose the next one to maintance when needed?
10:15<Skau1>if you set maintance on all
10:16<NGC3982>if maintenance is due, it doesnt matter if a train depot is in the list or not
10:16<NGC3982>as far as i know, the train should as usual choose the very next depot
10:16<Skau1>whats the point of setting the depot in the orderlist then?
10:17<NGC3982> personally, i use it to make ways for other trains on single lines.
10:17<@Alberth>adding a depot in the orderlist disables the train looking for a depot for servicing when it wants it
10:17<NGC3982>oh
10:17<NGC3982>never mind what i said, then.
10:17<Skau1>so.. its kinda dumb?
10:18<@Alberth>depends on your playing style
10:19<@Alberth>if you disable breakdowns and disable servicing, yeah, you don't need depots
10:20<@Alberth>but imho disabling breakdowns is making it too easy :p
10:21<Skau1>so breakdowns wont make it go to maintance?
10:21<Skau1>if yo udont have it in orderlist
10:21<Skau1>only if maintance is due
10:22<drac_boy>I usually treat depots as engine/freightyards on my individual lines heh :)
10:22<Skau1>omfg.. something si not workign like i want it to here..
10:22<drac_boy>might not need that so much anymore with the NewObject thing tho
10:22<@Alberth>Skau1: http://wiki.openttd.org/Depots#Servicing
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10:23<Skau1>another question.. if you use the bomb in the water.. exampble by mistake
10:24<Skau1>nothing happends.. except you have to pay like close to half $100k
10:24<@Alberth>false
10:24<@Alberth>you created a bit of land, and it got flooded again
10:24<Skau1>lol
10:26<Skau1>are there ever any kind of "disaster" in openttd?
10:26<Skau1>i remember in sim city it could either be started a war, or there was a tornado or .. floods and shit
10:26<@Alberth>if you have disasters enabled, yes
10:27<Skau1>hmm.. i gotta tell my friend to enable it
10:27<Skau1>its no fun when you play with no risk
10:27<@Alberth>the server owner controls such settings
10:27<Skau1>yeah i know
10:28<Skau1>its our server
10:32<Skau1>diffrent train lights and sings are logicals etc, right?
10:32<Skau1>like IF OR AND etc
10:32<Skau1>are there anywhere i can se a overview explaining simply what each light means?
10:32<Skau1>i dont really understand all the descriptions of each
10:34<@Alberth>at the wiki, at the Signals page
10:35<@Alberth>although the set of logical operators is not complete, as some do not serve any purpose with signals
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10:40<NGC3982>http://www.nottooshabbynj.com/item_1200/Razzle-Dazzle-Vanity-Before.htm
10:40<NGC3982>oops
11:06<andythenorth>meh
11:06*andythenorth is re-animating the FIRS cement kiln
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11:30<NGC3982>http://i.imgur.com/RQCmP.png
11:31<NGC3982>any way i can make orders like that be set a bit easier?
11:32<Eddi|zuHause>if you have to pass through the stations anyway, what sense does it make to skip the stations?
11:32<NGC3982>doesnt take as much time if i skip them.
11:33<Eddi|zuHause>i suggest a central feeder station
11:34<NGC3982>four independent trains > feeder station > big ass train between the feeder and recieving industry?
11:34<Eddi|zuHause>yes
11:34<Eddi|zuHause>or road vehicles for the feeders
11:34<NGC3982>i guess thats more profitable
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12:22<Skau1>but i never got an answer on my question .. :P if i add 2 depots to orders, will it use the next one if it has broken down?
12:23<Skau1>or will this be a bad idea?
12:23<Eddi|zuHause>Breakdowns and servicing have no direct connection.
12:23<Eddi|zuHause>only an indirect one
12:24<Skau1>if you add maintance to orders, it will go to that depot when it has broken down, right?
12:26<Eddi|zuHause>breakdowns repair themselves. you don't have to go to depot.
12:26<@Alberth>it will always visit the depot afaik
12:26<@Alberth>but tias
12:27<CIA-1>OpenTTD: frosch * r24159 /trunk/src/object_gui.cpp: -Fix: If you spent hard work on finding an available object ID, you should probably also use it instead of always 0.
12:27<CIA-1>OpenTTD: frosch * r24160 /trunk/src/ (newgrf_object.cpp newgrf_object.h): -Codechange: Split parts of ObjectSpec::IsAvailable() into ObjectSpec::IsEverAvailable().
12:27<CIA-1>OpenTTD: frosch * r24161 /trunk/src/ (newgrf_class.h newgrf_class_func.h): -Add: Method to get a specific NewGRFClass.
12:27<CIA-1>OpenTTD: frosch * r24162 /trunk/src/ (9 files): -Codechange: Remove NewGRFClass::GetName() and SetName() in favour of using Get() and direct member access (which is needed anyway for GRF string resolving).
12:28<CIA-1>OpenTTD: frosch * r24163 /trunk/src/newgrf_class.h: -Codechange: Make various members of NewGRFClass private.
12:28<CIA-1>OpenTTD: frosch * r24164 /trunk/src/ (newgrf_class.h newgrf_class_func.h): -Codechange: Split parts of static NewGRFClass::Reset() into non-static ResetClass().
12:28<CIA-1>OpenTTD: frosch * r24165 /trunk/src/ (newgrf_class.h newgrf_class_func.h): -Codechange: Split parts of static NewGRFClass::Assign() into non-static Insert().
12:28<CIA-1>OpenTTD: frosch * r24166 /trunk/src/ (9 files in 2 dirs): -Codechange: Turn NewGRFClass::Get(Tid, uint) and GetCount(Tid) into non-static members GetSpec(uint) and GetSpecCount().
12:28<CIA-1>OpenTTD: frosch * r24167 /trunk/src/ (7 files): -Codechange: Rename NewGRFClass::GetCount() to NewGRFClass::GetClassCount()
12:28<andythenorth>busy busy
12:28<CIA-1>OpenTTD: frosch * r24168 /trunk/src/newgrf_station.cpp: -Codechange: Simplify default station class instantiation.
12:28<CIA-1>OpenTTD: frosch * r24169 /trunk/src/ (5 files): -Add: Make NewGRFClass distinguish between defined specs and specs visible for the user.
12:28<CIA-1>OpenTTD: frosch * r24170 /trunk/src/ (newgrf_class.h newgrf_class_func.h): -Add: Methods for translating between NewGRFClass spec indices and user interface indices.
12:28<CIA-1>OpenTTD: frosch * r24171 /trunk/src/ (object_gui.cpp terraform_gui.cpp): -Fix [FS#4967, FS#5120]: Hide object specs/classes from the GUI, if they will never be available to the user.
12:28<CIA-1>OpenTTD: frosch * r24172 /trunk/src/newgrf_object.cpp: -Cleanup: Lighthouse and transmitter no longer need special treatment to not appear in the object GUI.
12:29<frosch123>sorry for disturbing
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12:30*andythenorth ponders next industry patch
12:31<andythenorth>- set a bit on the industry window text cb to hide all default text
12:31<@Alberth>a bit on the cb? you want to switch it on and off?
12:32<andythenorth>on the return value :P
12:33<@Alberth>I guessed as much :p but you want to sometimes display default text and sometimes not?
12:33<andythenorth>yes
12:33<andythenorth>'cargo waiting to be processed' is often meaningless
12:34<@Alberth>ok :)
12:34<andythenorth>should just be a list of 'requires'
12:34<andythenorth>but I guess newgrf should take care of that :P
12:35<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: and why is a property not enough?
12:35<andythenorth>could be
12:35<Skau1>and is it possible to link a station to a refinery or something without placing the station close enough?
12:35<andythenorth>but the cb will have to be used either wa
12:35<andythenorth>ach typing whilst holding baby :P
12:36<andythenorth>if the prop is set, but text cb not used: FAIL :P
12:36<andythenorth>[was my thinking]
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12:37<Eddi|zuHause>Skau1: use Ctrl+Build Station to only put a small part near the industry, the other part further away
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12:40<hackalittlebit>Hello
12:40<hackalittlebit>Is ingo online
12:41<andythenorth>planetmaker ^
12:41<andythenorth>testing animation with FIRS is like pulling teeth due to compile time :P
12:41<andythenorth>maybe I should comment out most of the grf to do this :)
12:43-!-pugi [~pugi@dyndsl-091-096-048-173.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has quit []
12:45<hackalittlebit>planetmaker what do you wan't me to do now? continue discussion in topic that michi_cc gave?(FS5147)
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12:55<frosch123>hackalittlebit: i think the changes in the forum thread are too radical to get started
12:55<frosch123>so, i guess the fs task is more sane for now
12:56<frosch123>he, andythenorth advertises the todo list in his signature :p
12:56<Eddi|zuHause>i feel like i missed half of the conversation
12:56<andythenorth>I discussed it with pm ;)
12:57<andythenorth>frosch123: I could have advertised my pony list instead :)
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12:57<frosch123>yeah, wondered about that
12:57<andythenorth>currently my biggest pony is "is my patch good enough" :)
12:57<frosch123>maybe it is a sneaky try of yours to get your pony list linked from the todo list in return :p
12:58<andythenorth>it's no problem if a grf handles a cb not in stable? (the cb will never be called?)
12:58<Eddi|zuHause>correct
12:58<andythenorth>hmm
12:58<andythenorth>I need something new in trunk that FIRS can use :P
12:58<andythenorth>so that it breaks against stable :P
12:59<Eddi|zuHause>you really don't
12:59<andythenorth>no really I don't :P
12:59<andythenorth>but it's more fun to have features that are 'wait until 1.3'
12:59<andythenorth>or 'use a nightly'
13:00<andythenorth>hmm
13:00<andythenorth>this is better right? http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=1010189#p1010189
13:00*andythenorth predicts possible forthcoming sadness :|
13:02<hackalittlebit>andythenorth I see two times same picture in your post, MMMmwwhhahahahaha, Just kidding ;)
13:04*FLHerne pesters andythenorth about windmills :P
13:05<hackalittlebit>frosch123 Ok got it will continue in FS, Radical changes is bad, should be gradual, I would like to see some agreement on color scemes.
13:05<Eddi|zuHause>i don't see the animation :p
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13:07<frosch123>hackalittlebit: Alberth once wrote some wiki page about colours http://wiki.openttd.org/GUI_Style
13:07<oskari89>Do i understand right, that current trunk allows NewObjects to have categories in placement window?
13:08<frosch123>oskari89: trunk does not differ from 1.2 if you mean that
13:08<oskari89>On the object gui?
13:08<oskari89>Ok, just thought :P
13:09<@Alberth>hackalittlebit: oh, yeah I did, I never finished it properly though, so you should consider it a starting point rather than as a definitive guide
13:09<oskari89>If there could be drop-down menu for subcategories, that would be nice.
13:10<oskari89>For NewObjects.
13:11<@Alberth>there exists a list of such subcategories?
13:11<andythenorth>FLHerne: what's the windmill case?
13:11<oskari89>No, but i think it would be nice..
13:12<oskari89>Or is there?
13:12<frosch123>as long as newgrfs categorise objects by newgrfs, there is apparently no need for categories
13:12<frosch123>else they would already create more useful categories
13:14<@Alberth>and getting agreement on categories is quite difficult
13:14<andythenorth>FLHerne: is there actually a reproducible bug with the windmill? You do keep mentioning it :/
13:14<Mazur>Yes, some birds keep fluing into it.
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13:15<Mazur>flying, too.
13:15<FLHerne>Yes :P
13:15<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: it may be a chicken-egg-problem
13:15<andythenorth>FLHerne: have you made a bug report to forums or FIRS issue tracker?
13:15<andythenorth>what's the bug?
13:16<FLHerne>I almost did, but you said you'd just close it :D
13:16<FLHerne>I'll post it on the forum :P
13:16<andythenorth>is it the flapping when zoomed out?
13:16<andythenorth>if so, it's an openttd bug and you should post it to flyspray
13:17<andythenorth>you can mention that the oil well also does it
13:18<hackalittlebit>alberth I need to study it. I have to admit that subcategories also crossed my mind. But as frosch said we have to start at the beginning
13:18<andythenorth>hmm
13:18<andythenorth>so why do sprites bounce in the zoomed out view?
13:18<andythenorth>they have the same size bounding box in newgrf
13:19<FLHerne>andythenorth: If it's the pixel halving, you could do separate sprites for each zoomlevel now :P
13:19<andythenorth>but the cases are animated tiles, where sprites for some frames will have different heights to others (once masked)
13:19<andythenorth>FLHerne: yeah, that's *definitely* going to happen :P
13:20<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: http://devs.openttd.org/~frosch/objects.png <- i doubt there is actually the interest in categorising them useful
13:20<frosch123>that image shows all objects of which i know, half of the categories include the grf name
13:21<frosch123>andythenorth: disable cropping by grfcodec/nml
13:21<frosch123>so that all sprites have the same size
13:22<frosch123>and offsets
13:22<FLHerne>Forum bug report for you anythenorth :P : http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=41607&p=1010200#p1010200
13:23<andythenorth>frosch123: presumably that increases filesize? But not much, as it's mostly blue?
13:23<frosch123>andythenorth: only disable cropping for the animated sprites :)
13:23<andythenorth>hmm
13:24*andythenorth to nml specs
13:24<andythenorth>unless anyone can tell me now how to do it? :)
13:24<frosch123>in nfo32 you need to add "nocrop" or so :p
13:25<frosch123>it's "NOCROP" in nml as well :)
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13:27<andythenorth>my nml doesn't like NOCROP
13:27<andythenorth>:P
13:27<andythenorth>ach I'll figure it out
13:27<frosch123>the docu says you have to put it in front of the filename
13:28<andythenorth> tmpl_building_sprite_filename( 10, 200, 82, -52, NOCROP, "sprites/graphics/industries/grainmill.png")
13:28<andythenorth>I guess I have to do it in the template
13:28<andythenorth>biab
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13:32<andythenorth>ach
13:32<andythenorth>screw that :P
13:32<andythenorth>I'd have to change every industry in FIRS
13:33<FLHerne>andythenorth: Do, then :P
13:33*FLHerne supports disproportionate complication :D
13:35<andythenorth>hmm
13:35<andythenorth>makes no difference to filesize
13:35<andythenorth>frosch123 / Rubidium does using NOCROP on sprites do any harm?
13:35<frosch123>why should it?
13:35<andythenorth>I've just applied it to every building sprite in FIRS
13:36<andythenorth>I assumed it was an optimisation of some sort
13:36<andythenorth>(to use CROP)
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13:36<frosch123>if it makes no different on filesize at all, then it either does not work, or all sprites were already cropped :p
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13:38<andythenorth>34050 bytes difference
13:38<andythenorth>so some
13:38<andythenorth>on a ~1MB grf
13:38<andythenorth>@calc 34 / 1024
13:38<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: 0.033203125
13:38<andythenorth>still 3%
13:38<andythenorth>it does fix the windmill, but not the oil well
13:38<frosch123>well, most bytes in a grf are the pseudo sprites, which are uncompressed
13:39<frosch123>usually the images themself are the minority :p
13:39<andythenorth>I'm committing it
13:39<frosch123>does it actually fix your issue with zooming?
13:39<andythenorth>for the windmill yes
13:39<andythenorth>for oil wells (uses base set sprites), no
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13:41<andythenorth>FLHerne: it's done
13:42<andythenorth>object lesson in 'squeaky wheel gets the oil' :/
13:42<frosch123>hmm, maybe we can change the zooming to be relative to the offset point, instead of top-left corner
13:42<frosch123>michi_cc: ^^ what do you think?
13:43<andythenorth>wouldn't always solve the case I bet
13:43<andythenorth>odd / even values for height width would still jitter
13:43<frosch123>it would make it independent from croppping
13:43<andythenorth>really?
13:43<andythenorth>frame 1 height = 10
13:43<andythenorth>frame 2 height = 11
13:44<andythenorth>won't that cause jitter?
13:44<andythenorth>nvm if not
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: translators * r24173 /trunk/src/lang/ (afrikaans.txt latvian.txt):
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: afrikaans - 39 changes by telanus
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: latvian - 16 changes by Parastais
13:46*FLHerne looks for other things to nag andythenorth about :P
13:46<andythenorth>nag andythenorth that industries don't randomise production amount when built
13:47<andythenorth>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/855
13:53<+michi_cc>frosch123: No problem if you implement it :p
13:55*andythenorth wonders why production cb is used for black hole industries
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14:08<NGC3982>wat
14:08<andythenorth>Pony request
14:08<NGC3982>black hole industries?
14:08<andythenorth>Pony: allow industry to overbuild houses *without* using one of the (unpopular) special flags
14:09<andythenorth>serious request for town-based industry :)
14:10<NGC3982>i have a suggestion on a grf.
14:10<NGC3982>that i just started thinking about
14:10<andythenorth>the two special flags for 'can overbuild houses' are considered limiting as they attach other conditions
14:10<NGC3982>a full chemical grf, with rare earth elements and nuclear/chemical industries
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14:11<NGC3982>and you need special trains and special carts for radioactive elements and such.
14:11<NGC3982>\o/
14:11<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: if I propose extending a cb, will you point out that it should be a prop? :)
14:11<Eddi|zuHause>possibly :p
14:12*andythenorth proposes adding a bit to result of cb28 or cb2f that allows overbuilding of houses (off by default)
14:13<andythenorth>I think I know where in industry_cmd.cpp it could be used, will have a look once the toddler is asleep :)
14:13<Eddi|zuHause>what do you mean with "allow"?
14:13<Eddi|zuHause>there are already industries which overbuild houses
14:13<andythenorth>I mean 'permits overbuilding of houses'
14:13<@Alberth>NGC3982: great, one cargo of nuclear material every decade, driving at walking speed to the power plant
14:14<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: see lines further up ;)
14:14<Eddi|zuHause>they don't explain anything
14:14<andythenorth>I can't remember the objections, they weren't mine
14:15<andythenorth>but the distance / population limits on the existing flags are considered harmful
14:15<andythenorth>and also they're considered cheating, real men write callback handlers
14:15<andythenorth>:P
14:15<andythenorth>I could be persuaded they're fine, but I wasn't allowed to close FIRS tickets referencing this issue
14:16<andythenorth>and I'm sick of having so many FIRS tickets open
14:17<andythenorth>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/2963
14:17<Eddi|zuHause>again: which of the flags do what, and which of these effects do you want to circumvent?
14:17<andythenorth>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/3046
14:18<andythenorth>this I think was the main objection:
14:18<andythenorth>"planetmaker: because simply somthing 15 tiles from the centre in 1900 is nicely at the edge. But in 2050 it's in the financial district with high-rise. And it just doesn't fit and is annoying to connect when I have to slash through 30 tiles of town and even make space for a station"
14:19<andythenorth>that's the result of special flag bit 5
14:21<Eddi|zuHause>http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/Action0/Industries#Special_industry_flags_to_define_special_behavior_.281A.29
14:21<Eddi|zuHause>suggests that you should use bit 4 instead
14:21<andythenorth>bit 4 is too restrictive wrt distance iirc
14:22<andythenorth>hm
14:22<Eddi|zuHause>not according to this documentation
14:22<andythenorth>let's check what's actually used
14:22<Eddi|zuHause>bit 5 has the distance restriction, bit 4 not
14:22<frosch123>bit 4 must replace houses, while bit 5 can
14:23<frosch123>if you want a custom distance check, cb28 has the townzone available
14:23<Eddi|zuHause>i don't think that is a too hard restriction
14:25<andythenorth>ach...I'll read the source in a bit
14:25<andythenorth>I don't really care either way
14:25<andythenorth>but the issue won't go away
14:28<andythenorth>ok
14:28<andythenorth>so using bit 4, it's harder to place industries, because they *must* replace houses
14:28<andythenorth>and using bit 5 industries are pegged to 15 tiles or so of the town sign
14:29<andythenorth>neither is really satisfactory
14:32<andythenorth>also... biab, no battery :P
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15:03<NGC3982>Alberth: yes!
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15:12<Eddi|zuHause>why do you have to reboot when the battery is low?
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15:18<frosch123>he does not reboot, he buys a new machine
15:22<andythenorth>mostly I have to shut the lid :P
15:22<andythenorth>although, yes, sometimes I just put the old one in the bin and buy a new one with 100% charge ;)
15:22<andythenorth>
15:23<Eddi|zuHause>gnah...
15:24<Eddi|zuHause>why does kate's responsivenes decay so much with more than a dozen files open?
15:24<andythenorth>because you haven't patched it to be better? :o
15:25<andythenorth>the benefit of a closed source OS - no obligation to fix it :P
15:27<andythenorth>hmm
15:28<andythenorth>so wrt industry overbuilding houses...is the conclusion "get over it, it's a non-problem" ?
15:29<supermop>eminent domain
15:29<supermop>that or the industry ran off the homeowners with hired thugs
15:30<andythenorth>not the answer I was looking for, but thanks ;)
15:30<supermop>basically: i don't think it is a problem whether you want to look at it from gameplay side or realism side
15:33<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: i think it's a matter of "how much is it really hurting"? you could a) live with the fact that it ends up in the town center. b) live with the fact that it may not appear outside of the town, c) implement a custom population check like ECS, and live with the fact that you cannot overbuild houses, or d) implement a new industry flag that says "may overbuild houses"
15:34<andythenorth>I like a or d
15:34<Eddi|zuHause>i'd prefer "b" though
15:34<Eddi|zuHause>or "c"
15:35<andythenorth>actually b is better. andythenorth needs to read more carefully :P
15:35<Eddi|zuHause>seriously, why do you need to overbuild houses?
15:35<andythenorth>I've just changed one of the industries from a to b
15:36<andythenorth>no overbuilding = no industries placed in town
15:36<Eddi|zuHause>the construction callback may check for houses within 3 tile radius or something
15:37<andythenorth>I don't want to require over-building houses
15:37<Eddi|zuHause>then it will almost always be in the outskirts of towns
15:37<andythenorth>fails the case where industry needs to be built in town
15:38<andythenorth>hmm
15:38<andythenorth>I could duplicate industry, same industry twice, different IDs, different placement rules
15:39<Eddi|zuHause>that'll cause all kinds of weird effects
15:39<andythenorth>I feel like I'm not putting the case
15:39<andythenorth>I need to overbuild houses, because there's insanely high probability that there are houses on the tiles where the industry needs to be
15:39<Eddi|zuHause>why?
15:39<andythenorth>because towns have very few gaps
15:40<Eddi|zuHause>there's almost always empty tiles outside the town
15:40<andythenorth>yes
15:40<andythenorth>but that's outside town
15:40<andythenorth>these industries need to build inside town
15:40<Eddi|zuHause>builder's yard: no overbuilding, must have house nearby. shop/hotel: always require overbuilding
15:41<andythenorth>I'm not arguing ;)
15:41<andythenorth>you had me at (b) above :P
15:41<Eddi|zuHause>and what is this then? <andythenorth> I don't want to require over-building houses
15:41<Eddi|zuHause>looks like arguing to me :)
15:42<andythenorth>I'd rather it was optional to overbuild, rather than required, but if it avoids need for a patch...
15:42<andythenorth>...means I can close some tickets as 'no change'
15:45<andythenorth>I'm just going to double-check industry_cmd.cpp to be sure there are no distance checks lurking
15:45<andythenorth>sometimes in the past the specs lied wrt industry_cmd.cpp ;)
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16:08<andythenorth>so builders yards replacing houses seems...inverted :)
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16:12<Eddi|zuHause>exactly.
16:13<Eddi|zuHause>ECS has some construction checks that you must have X population nearby. maybe can reuse those
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16:15<andythenorth>for the builders yard, I'm going to try your suggestion of checking neighbouring tiles for houses
16:15<andythenorth>should be adequate
16:16<andythenorth>house within 5 tiles or so
16:16<andythenorth>might be an expensive check, I'll have to walk in all directions :P
16:17<andythenorth>might be wiser to check the town zone, but I never got my brain to understand town zone
16:18<andythenorth>http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/TownZones
16:18<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, town zone sounds right
16:18<andythenorth>zone 0 seems plausible
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16:22<andythenorth>good night
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16:37<andythenorth>how to adapt this to use town_zone var?
16:37<andythenorth>CHECK_TOWN_DISTANCE (town_distance, 0, 64, return CB_RESULT_LOCATION_ALLOW)
16:38<andythenorth>I can't find CHECK_TOWN_DISTANCE in nml specs
16:38<Eddi|zuHause>replace the whole thing with "town_zone"?
16:39<andythenorth>sounds plausible
16:40<andythenorth>CHECK_TOWN_DISTANCE must be a cpp macro
16:40<Eddi|zuHause>needs parameters (x,y) relative to northern corner of indutry
16:40<andythenorth>I hate that they look like functions
16:40<andythenorth>yeah, I can write the nml switch fine :)
16:40<andythenorth>I just don't know how FIRS magical codebase works :P
16:41<Eddi|zuHause>yes, CHECK_TOWN_DISTANCE looks like a cpp macro
16:41*andythenorth greps project :P
16:41<andythenorth>documented cpp macro
16:41<andythenorth>all is well
16:41<andythenorth>cpp does not mix well with nml
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16:41<Eddi|zuHause>prefix all macros with MACRO_?
16:42<andythenorth>maybe :P
16:42<andythenorth>it's totally unreadable, because nml also uses ALL_CAPS_CONSTANTS
16:42<andythenorth>which are valid and useful in lots of places
16:42<Eddi|zuHause>yes, but they won't have function-like syntax :)
16:42<andythenorth>well yes
16:43*andythenorth grumbles and goes back to code
16:43<frosch123>night
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16:43<andythenorth>ach, too slow again :|
16:45<andythenorth>gah, I need to pass a variable-length list as parameter option to CPP
16:45<andythenorth>this is a really appalling language :P
16:47<andythenorth>defeated
16:47*andythenorth -> bed :)
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16:54<@Terkhen>good night
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17:23<Wolf01>'night all
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19:35<drac_boy>hi
19:51<Skau1>what is deciding if production is higher or lower?
19:51<Skau1>is there something that can be done to get higher coal productions etc?
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20:17<Rhamphoryncus>% of cargo transferred, which is based on your station rating
20:20<Rhamphoryncus>If you're using the Smooth Economy setting then below 60% it's 2 to 1 chance of decrease vs increase, above 60% it switches to 1 to 2 chance, and above 80% it's 1 to 5 chance
20:20<Rhamphoryncus>more details can be found here: http://wiki.openttd.org/Game_Mechanics
20:22<Rhamphoryncus>Skau1: rule of thumb: use the fastest train you can, make sure there's always one waiting to load, and build statues in every town as soon as you can easily afford it
20:22<Rhamphoryncus>newly built vehicles and advertising campaigns give temporary boosts
20:22<drac_boy>heh
20:22<Skau1>i thought % transported was how many % i transported of what it made that month?
20:23<Nat_aS>so did I
20:23<Nat_aS>I'm glad I know now.
20:23<Rhamphoryncus>It only gives you an amount proportional to your rating
20:23<Rhamphoryncus>so if your rating is 60% then you get 60% of the production and 40% it tosses in the trash
20:23<Skau1>the higher the better?
20:24<Rhamphoryncus>yup
20:26<Rhamphoryncus>A train speed of 321 km/h is when you can permanently max it out, in combination with the statue and always having a train waiting to load
20:29*drac_boy generally gets 81-94% range on average rather easily and thats with conserative trains :-s
20:30<Rhamphoryncus>drac_boy: are those aged trains though? At least 3 years?
20:30<drac_boy>no idea
20:31<Rhamphoryncus>there's a 13% boost on brand new trains
20:32<Rhamphoryncus>That, without any speed points, can put you to 79%
20:33<Rhamphoryncus>Hrm. Only 91 km/h to hit 80% without that
20:34<drac_boy>heh I think I actually average 60-110km/h so that seem right
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21:20<Skau1>if my friend join my company
21:20<Skau1>what happends?
21:20<Skau1>can he still just go back to his own after and continue as normal?
21:28<Mazur>Of course, as long as he remembers its password.
21:28<Mazur>And hte company does not go backrupt.
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22:01<Skau1>if i have a "highway" for trains.. and i have a interception.. how do i make the train that is entering the highway wait if there is another train comming instead of the train that is standing on the highway has to stop
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22:13<Rhamphoryncus>Skau1: called a "prio" or "priority merge it involves trickery with path and block signals
22:14<Rhamphoryncus>http://wiki.openttd.org/Right-of-way_Merge
22:36<Rhamphoryncus>err path and presignals
22:36<Rhamphoryncus>Although you can use block signals too..
22:37<Skau1>ill gotta find out more about that later
22:37<Skau1>cant afford it
22:37<Rhamphoryncus>You can't afford to build a signal?
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---Logclosed Mon Apr 23 00:00:35 2012