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#openttd IRC Logs for 2012-04-24

---Logopened Tue Apr 24 00:00:36 2012
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01:18<Tintinfan>hello
01:18<planetmaker>moin
01:19<Tintinfan>can sombody help :/
01:21<planetmaker>@topic get -3
01:21<@DorpsGek>planetmaker: Don't ask to ask, just ask
01:21<Tintinfan>ooops sorry
01:21<Tintinfan>right well I was wondering why dedicated server kept reverting back to 1.2.0-RC4
01:22<Tintinfan>when even after ive gone through and changed .cfg's and all :/
01:22<Tintinfan>(to 1.2.0)
01:22<planetmaker>what does the cfg have to do with the binary version?
01:23<planetmaker>or you mean generally the servers out there?
01:23<Tintinfan>im not sure, but there was a version thingy in there.
01:23<Tintinfan>no, my own server.
01:24<planetmaker>sorry, but that sounds to me like "why does firefox start when I switched to chrome" to me
01:24<Rubidium>that version is there for debug purposes; we often get/ask for configuration files in bug reports and the bug reporters aren't as concise/correct about the version they use, so we added it to the configuration file (which always overwrites the version)
01:24<planetmaker>my answer would be "you start the wrong programme".
01:24<planetmaker>oh :-)
01:25<planetmaker>I didn't remember the version being there, Rubidium
01:27<planetmaker>in any case, there's no need to adjust the version info in the cfg, Tintinfan
01:27<planetmaker>in fact doing so won't change anything
01:27<Tintinfan>ok.
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01:30*Tintinfan decideds to install it again in a new folder
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01:38<Tintinfan>grr
01:39<Tintinfan>still not working *rant*
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01:42<planetmaker>you meanwhilte...
01:51<peter1138>it's good when people know what they're doing
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04:54<krinn>15 companies max, but are they range only 0-14 ?
04:55<TinoDidriksen>0-14 inclusive = 15
04:59<Eddi|zuHause>range 0-15 would be 16 companies
05:00<krinn>the question is not how to count :)
05:00<Eddi|zuHause>but we need one for "no owner"
05:00<krinn>but if companyID is store in a bit
05:00<Eddi|zuHause>[and occasionally also for "town owner"]
05:02<krinn>so could a companyID > 15 exist ?
05:02<Eddi|zuHause>i think OWNER_TOWN is 16
05:03*CornishPasty sets his companyid to 16
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05:09<CornishPasty>Why does the OpenTTD dedicated server require a graphics set?
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05:18<krinn>CornishPasty, maybe because openttd knows 0 cars, and the graphics set not only gave it the graphics for the cars, but the cars themselves, the objects, with their properties... How about running a game with 0 objects?
05:19<krinn>CornishPasty, because i'm not sure default objects exists anymore
05:19<CornishPasty>What's the point of that though? Why can't there be a graphics set that has no graphics, that's default part of openttd
05:22<krinn>because your client must share the same newgrf, so if your server run a newgrf that define objects without graphics, it will run, but your client will have 0 graphics too, i'm not sure you will have a lot of clients in these conditions
05:23<CornishPasty>Hmm... Kinda stupid
05:23<CornishPasty>I hope it at least doesn't load the graphics in
05:23<CornishPasty>Like sourceds doesn't load textures, only polys
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05:28<Eddi|zuHause>there is no such things as "textures and polys"
05:33<CornishPasty>Eddi|zuHause: There are
05:34<Eddi|zuHause>CornishPasty: this is NOT a 3D game
05:34<CornishPasty>Eddi|zuHause: I was talking about sourceds
05:34<CornishPasty>Or, I suppose it should be called, srcds
05:34<Eddi|zuHause>yes. and the sources know nothing about "textures and polys"
05:35<CornishPasty>Eddi|zuHause: http://www.srcds.com/
05:36<Eddi|zuHause>so what are you trying to say?
05:36<TinoDidriksen>Does it matter? OpenTTD graphics aren't exactly heavy. If the server loads them, so what...
05:36<Eddi|zuHause>CornishPasty: making exceptions around all sorts of stuff will make the code slower than just handling the graphics
05:36<CornishPasty>It doesn't really matter from a server perspective, but it's still just wasted effort
05:37<Eddi|zuHause>CornishPasty: only the output of the graphics buffer is skipped
05:37<Eddi|zuHause>CornishPasty: and the libraries are not compiled in
05:37<CornishPasty>Wait, what?
05:37<CornishPasty>How can libraries not be compiled in when it's just a command line flag?
05:38<CornishPasty>Unless it compiles itself at launch?
05:38<Eddi|zuHause>ah, no. in that case, only no window is created
05:39<CornishPasty>So if the DS can render graphics etc, can it render them to a file, say, for a screenshot?
05:39<Eddi|zuHause>yes-ish
05:40<Eddi|zuHause>you have to change the blitter, though
05:40<CornishPasty>Hm?
05:43<Eddi|zuHause>there's a "null" blitter, that really does (almost) nothing, and there's other blitters that handle the sprites internally
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06:00<Ammler>opengfx has a "nogfx" branch
06:00<Ammler>but since it does not really matter, we never caredabout it
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06:04<Ammler>maybe with adding 32bpp to opengfx, it could make sense again to make a nogfx baseset
06:05<peter1138>why?
06:05<Ammler>for having a smaller package
06:06<Ammler>rather than maintain a 8bpp and 32bpp version, imo
06:07<peter1138>iirc all grfs need to contain 8bpp normal zoom sprites
06:07<Ammler>opengfx "nogfx" works
06:08<Ammler>it also kept the gui sprites, so you were still able t use the menu
06:09<peter1138>yeah but i assume you were using the old container format, and just included empty 1x1 or something sprites
06:10<Ammler>I guess so
06:10<Ammler>(long ago) :-)
06:10<Ammler>hmm, s/works/worked/ then
06:12<krinn>but as now all newGRF are record and cannot be change, there's no more a way to have a game running opengfx-nogfx and clients opengfx-gfx newGRF no ?
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06:17<peter1138>opengfx is a grf, not a newgrf
06:18<peter1138>basesets can be changed with no ill effect
06:26<Eddi|zuHause>container version 2 is supposed to support both 32bpp and 8bpp versions of the same grf
06:26<krinn>GSSignList and GSSign.GetOwner doesn't make sense, anyone to clear it? If GSSignList return the list of sign create by the GS, then GSSign.GetOwner could only be the GS
06:27<Eddi|zuHause>but i guess changing the action14 is not supported in those cases
06:27<Eddi|zuHause>so e.g. DOS and Windows versions can't be unified
06:28<peter1138>there's no reason for dos/windows versions
06:28<krinn>and if i need to GSCompanyMode to a companyID to read its sign, the GSSign.GetOwner is never use as i could just record the company orwner i have switch too
06:29<krinn>GSSignList: Create a list of signs your company has created <- it would make sense if GSSignList return all tiles create by all companies to need to GSSign.GetOwner func
06:31<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: maybe if TTDPatch gained container version 2 support :)
06:31<peter1138>lol
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07:30<Iviv>Good afternoon all
07:30<Markk>Oi
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07:36<Iviv>I'd like to thank whoever wrote the instructions on compiling openttd through MinGW, they're very well writen
07:43<Iviv>Is there anyone here who knows about compiling with MinGW?
07:43<Iviv>or perhaps about compiling in general
07:44<zxbiohazardzx>what you need to know about it?:P
07:44<Iviv>Including a .patch file
07:44<Iviv>I'm currently going through the instructions here: http://wiki.openttd.org/Compiling_on_MinGW
07:44<zxbiohazardzx>there is a hint on the forums on how to apply a patch before compiling
07:44<Iviv>Ooh, there is? Where is this hint located?
07:45<zxbiohazardzx>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=21678
07:45<Iviv>thanks!
07:45<zxbiohazardzx>commands presented there are mingw afaik so
07:45<Iviv>awesome
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07:47<Iviv>oh. When compiling liblzo2 apparently my compiler failed the ACC conformance test. Does this matter?
07:48<zxbiohazardzx>not really sure, not that much into it
07:48<Iviv>okie, no worries
07:49<Iviv>Oh. Ran the command again and it passed the test this time
07:50<Iviv>ah well, go figure. Onwards!
07:53<zxbiohazardzx>XD
08:04<Iviv>Do you know about libicu? It says that it handles the natural sorting of lists. What does that actually mean? XD
08:04<Iviv>I don't need the right-to-left scripts, its just that sorting line which has me confused
08:06<CornishPasty>Iviv: natural list sorting, a1, a2, a3, a7, a8, a10. Non-natural a1, a10, a2, a3, a7, a8
08:07<Iviv>Aah, thanks! How often does that come up in OpenTTD? Its not something I've noticed in any lists, though equally I've not ever looked out for it specifically
08:08<Skau1>is there a admincommand that can be used to enable the possibility to remove industries?
08:08<CornishPasty>I think it helps with automatically numbered trains, i.e. Train 1, Train 2, etc.
08:08<CornishPasty>Not entirely sure though
08:08<Iviv>Ah, good point. Better do that then
08:09<krinn>Iviv, a lot as all AI/GS scripts need it too
08:09<Iviv>Thanks, krinn
08:11<Skau1>or any way it can be enabled after a server is started
08:31<Iviv>Me again. Got all the other things downloaded and compiled now, just starting on the openttd part now. I require a certain build, which I've found on the vcs.openttd.org site. However, the development FAQ recommends using Mercurial or Git to download them as its easier to patch
08:34<Iviv>Is it possible to use Mercurial or Git to get a specific older revision, since the patch apparently only works for a certain revision
08:39<CornishPasty>Yes
08:42<Iviv>Awesome. Would I do it through mingw?
08:47<Skau1>should i take that as a no? :P
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09:05<dihedral>oi
09:05<supermop>hi
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09:07<zxbiohazardzx>question
09:08<zxbiohazardzx>i have a savegame that uses a newgrf (dutchtramset) and i have that grf (or a different one) in my folder
09:08<zxbiohazardzx>the grfID is exactly the same
09:08<zxbiohazardzx>yet OTTD wont recognise it as the same GRF
09:08<zxbiohazardzx>is the checksum that important?
09:09<zxbiohazardzx>GRF ID in savegame: FBFB0102 MD5: BD9EA816D516F66CBE5C793BEF8DBE54
09:10<zxbiohazardzx>GRFID in map: FBFB0102 MD5: 803D38F242F016C4A8212FA05C0F9B7E
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09:15<zxbiohazardzx>any clue why it wont see its the same set?
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09:17<krinn>did you try the get the missing newgrf option?
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09:17<zxbiohazardzx>yeah not found
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09:17<zxbiohazardzx>and i even checked the "usual" GRF sources i used, like ottdcoop etc
09:18<zxbiohazardzx>but i just cant find the matching version for the dutchtramset
09:18<zxbiohazardzx>i got the RC1 from banana's
09:18<zxbiohazardzx>its GRFID is the same
09:18<zxbiohazardzx>but MD5 isnt
09:18<zxbiohazardzx>and the game wont detect it as being the same GRF or a "similar/updated version was used" (yellow)
09:18<krinn>http://devs.openttd.org/~rubidium/newgrf.html
09:19<krinn>set r87 match your md5
09:19<zxbiohazardzx>ok
09:19<zxbiohazardzx>so i have to hunt for r87
09:19<zxbiohazardzx>thx
09:19<krinn>well, it seems, good hunt :p
09:19<zxbiohazardzx>hate that r26 is not compatible/overwriting it
09:19<zxbiohazardzx>anyone have a clue why it wont overwrite if they are same?
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09:20<krinn>considering the strange list that newGRF have, it will happen again
09:20<zxbiohazardzx>yeah but again the question is why
09:20<zxbiohazardzx>is it because of the DTS coding/coders?
09:20<zxbiohazardzx>owners?
09:21<krinn>something to ask to the newgrf authors
09:22<zxbiohazardzx>Revisie 87:fc83c3a6c1e8
09:22<zxbiohazardzx>lol lol lol
09:22<zxbiohazardzx>Gerelateerde issues
09:22<zxbiohazardzx> Feature #2904: Make compatible with RC
09:22<zxbiohazardzx>badum tss
09:23<krinn>:)
09:26<zxbiohazardzx>anyway ill poke foobar about it
09:27<zxbiohazardzx>meh i got the file from a friend, huzzay for Romazoon :)
09:28<krinn>google record md5 of file too, so the name+md5 could have answer it maybe
09:29<zxbiohazardzx>nah i got them from Romazoon, so i can at least play again :)
09:29<zxbiohazardzx>cincinidi game :)
09:29<zxbiohazardzx>the old one we played over the network
09:29<zxbiohazardzx>quite well played map :)
09:34<Iviv>Hmm, an apparent issue with the mingw32 install guide, assuming I've not some something wrong. It doesn't mention installing lzma, and openttd complains when I ./configure it
09:35<Iviv>Warning: lzma was not detected or disabled
09:35<Iviv>warning: openTTD doesn't require lzma, but it does mean that many features, etc etc
09:37<lugo>xz = lzma, afaik
09:37<lugo>or is part of..
09:37<Iviv>I thought that might be the case, but I tried installing that again but no change
09:38<lugo>mmh then there is http://tukaani.org/lzma/
09:39<lugo>well, "Users of LZMA Utils should move to XZ Utils" ;)
09:42<Iviv>Yeah, its weird since I have xz: wget http://tukaani.org/xz/xz-5.0.3.tar.gz
09:46<TWerkhoven[l]>afaik theres a configure option allowing you to turn off the lzma dependancy
09:46<TWerkhoven[l]>had to do that when i configured linux sources
09:47<lugo>but the feeeaatures
09:47<Iviv>Also, I don't know if it matters ( I don't think so), but I'm trying to compile a version that was patched in linux. That wouldn't matter, would it?
09:48<Iviv>Me and a friend run a server, we wanted to add in the daylength patch. He compiled the version for the server fine, but he has no idea about compiling for windows, but sent me the patched source code, which I'm trying to compile in mingw
09:52<Iviv>I'll try compiling the 5.0.2 version of xz instead. Do I need to 'uninstall' the 5.0.3 version I currently have?
09:52<lugo>have you tried installing the sole lzma package?
09:53<Iviv>http://tukaani.org/lzma/ From that page?
09:53<lugo>yup
09:53<Iviv>will give that a go, should I stull use ./configure --enable-static --disable-threads when compiling?
09:53<lugo>can't be bad to have both nstalled i guess
09:54<lugo>ehm no idea ;)
09:54<Iviv>XD Well, I can't see anything bad happening if I don't
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09:55<krinn>app-arch/xz-utils-5.0.3 (/usr/lib/liblzma.so.5.0.3)
09:55<krinn>http://tukaani.org/xz/
09:55<krinn>better get the one
09:55<Iviv>huh?
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09:56<krinn>drop lzma, and use xz instead
09:56<krinn>xz provide lzma
09:56<Iviv>I already have xz-5.0.3
09:56<krinn>then you misconfigure your build
09:56<Iviv>but for some reason when I try to compile openTTD it says I don't
09:56<Iviv>http://wiki.openttd.org/Compiling_on_MinGW I've been following these instructions
09:57<krinn>because it might search somewhere and your is install somewhere else, something you could tell the configure
09:58<krinn>read your configure.log to see why
09:59<Iviv>checking liblzma... not found
09:59<Iviv>WARNING: lzma was not detected or disabled
09:59<Iviv>WARNING: OpenTTD doesn't require lzma, but it does mean that many features
09:59<Iviv>WARNING: (like loading most savegames/scenarios and joining most servers)
09:59<Iviv>WARNING: will be disabled.
09:59<Iviv> If you want to compile without lzma use --without-lzma as parameter
09:59<Iviv>That's the end of the config.log in my openttd folder
10:01<krinn> pkg-config liblzma --modversion
10:01<Iviv>http://i.imgur.com/gdCIQ.jpg and http://i.imgur.com/KG1yD.jpg are two screenshots of how my C:\MinGW\msys\1.0\home\Iviv\ folder, and the openttd folder inside look
10:01<krinn>if you get no answer, that's your problem
10:02<Iviv>hmm
10:03<Iviv>No package 'liblzma' found
10:03<krinn>that's why it fail
10:04<Iviv>Makes sense. Though why isn't it installing? I wish I knew more on the subject, but I followed the steps on the wiki, wget and unzipping gettext and glib
10:06<krinn>pkg-config lookout for liblzma.pc file
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10:08<Skau1>http://wiki.openttd.org/Image:Basic_priority.png
10:08<Skau1>what is the point with first exit, then combo on the main track?
10:09<CornishPasty> I never understood priorities :P
10:09<Iviv>krinn, liblzma.pc exists in c:\minGW\lib and c:\minGW\msys\1.0\home\Iviv\xz-5.0.3\src
10:10<Iviv>*sorry, in C:\MinGW\lib\pkgconfig
10:13<krinn>well, try setup the PKG_CONFIG_PATH=c:\minGW\lib
10:13<krinn>or where the file is
10:18<Iviv>Sorry, but how do I do that? Do I just run: 'make install pkg_config_path=/usr/local/lib'
10:18<Skau1>ive built my station all the way out to a oilrig in the water, but the production never seems to increase
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10:19<Skau1>even though transport rate is at 100%
10:19<Skau1>any ideas why?
10:19<krinn>i don't know for windows, in linux PKG_CONFIG_PATH=/usr/local/lib make install
10:25<Iviv>Aha, done it. had to run: $ export PKG_CONFIG_PATH=/c/mingw/lib/pkgconfig
10:28<Iviv> getoptdata.o: file not recognized: File format not recognized
10:28<Iviv>when running make :(
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10:30<krinn>do "file" if it work, then "file pathtobadfileformat"
10:31<krinn>else, well, get linux, free & simpler :)
10:32<Iviv>XD
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10:54<Rubidium>Skau1: because high transport rates increase the chance of increasing production rates
10:54<Skau1>yes, but the production rate never increases
10:54<Iviv>Its compiling!
10:55<Rubidium>Skau1: that's not statistically impossible
10:56<Skau1>it increases sometimes.. but its been like that for hours and hourse without getting higher than 100k liters
10:56<Rubidium>it could even close
10:57<Skau1>one of my rigs have about 2 million per month
11:10<Skau1>How does refitting work?
11:10<Skau1>do i need to have the carts i want to use in the depot ?
11:11<Skau1>nvm.. i just create two diffrent kind of trains to deliver goods / get valubles
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11:32<Skau1>http://norimg.no/bilder/343.png
11:32<Skau1>in progress, but starting to look better now
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12:04<Iviv>Hi! How do I get newgrf's working on a linux dedicated server. I can't use any GUI stuff for it unfortunately
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12:06<frosch123>set up everything with the gui, then copy over the necessary parts of ~/.openttd.cfg
12:07<frosch123>*gui on another machine
12:07<Iviv>Can I set it up with a windows gui?
12:07<frosch123>yes
12:07<frosch123>might replace \ with / in paths maybe
12:08<Iviv>Don't the newgrfs all go into the <user>\documents folder though? Or are they also copied to the actual install folder when enabled?
12:08<frosch123>yes, you need to copy the content of that openttd folder to ~/.openttd
12:09<Iviv>Rightyo, I'll give that a go. Thanks!
12:10<Iviv>And thanks a ton for all your help earlier krinn
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12:53<CaveJohnson>http://puu.sh/rgYS
12:53<CaveJohnson>o.o
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12:53<CaveJohnson>${APPV_EXTRA} appears wherever the version does
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12:55<andythenorth>evening
12:56<CaveJohnson>morning
12:57<andythenorth>meh
12:57<andythenorth>seems my 'improved' cement plant has bombed
12:57<andythenorth>:P
12:59<andythenorth>anybody want to write an improved placement algorithm for town industries?
12:59<andythenorth>it needs to:
12:59<andythenorth>- be NML, but encapsulated in one or more reusable CPP macros
13:00<andythenorth>- place industries near the edge of a town, for any size town
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13:21<@Belugas>hello
13:21<andythenorth>lo Belugas
13:21<@Belugas>sir andythenorth :)
13:21<andythenorth>what causes you to buy Lego trains (or not)?
13:22<andythenorth>[I started a thread on a Lego forum]
13:22<@Belugas>me?
13:22<andythenorth>tu
13:22<andythenorth>or vous
13:22<@Belugas>or toi
13:22<andythenorth>or toi
13:22<@Belugas>hehe
13:22<@Belugas>well..
13:22<@Belugas>two things
13:22<@Belugas>1) toys are for grown ups
13:22<@Belugas>2) toys are for kids
13:22<@Terkhen>hello
13:23<@Belugas>hihi Terkhen :)
13:23<andythenorth>Belugas: +1
13:23<andythenorth>AFOLS (Adult Fans of Lego) are funny
13:23<andythenorth>they often lack any insight into children, or play :P
13:24<@Belugas>nothing better than having a kid to restart the plaeasure thogh!@
13:24<andythenorth>it's all about...realism for afols :)
13:25<andythenorth>brb
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13:26<CIA-1>OpenTTD: frosch * r24175 /trunk/src/object_gui.cpp: -Fix (r24171): Make sure to select a object class with visible objects when opening the object GUI.
13:26-!-mal2 [~mal2@port-92-206-121-113.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #openttd
13:27<CIA-1>OpenTTD: frosch * r24176 /trunk/src/object_gui.cpp: -Fix (r21772): The object GUI did not draw objects when all objects of a class are disabled.
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13:36<zxbiohazardzx>apart from guessing, is there a way to check mapsize ?
13:37<zxbiohazardzx>i mean the diff between 2052 and 4098 is guessing and 4k over 8k is something i dont want to count tiles for either
13:38<zxbiohazardzx>but nvm i used a rail to determine it XD
13:40<TWerkhoven[l]>query tool at bottom corner
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13:42<TWerkhoven[l]>corner of the map that is
13:47<zxbiohazardzx>whatever
13:47<zxbiohazardzx>im gonna try to beat cindini map creators
13:47<zxbiohazardzx>and make my own map :P
13:47<zxbiohazardzx>im insane enough for it :P
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13:50<Skau1>what decides the valubles production rate ?
13:51-!-Chris_Booth [~chatzilla@host86-154-35-89.range86-154.btcentralplus.com] has joined #openttd
13:55<@Alberth>random, like all other rates, but please read the game mechanics wiki page
13:56<Skau1>i did, but couldnt see any specifics about valuables..but thanks
14:01<Skau1>i thought valuables was the best thing to earn cash with?
14:01<Skau1>fully loaded train almost across the whole map gave me only 7mill
14:01<Skau1>NOK
14:02<Skau1>which is 58k GBP
14:02<Skau1>i think
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14:08<Eddi|zuHause>only if you can deliver it fast.
14:08<Eddi|zuHause>the total number of days in transit matters
14:09<Eddi|zuHause>30 tiles in 10 days and 60 tiles in 20 days don't pay linearly
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14:13<Skau1>30 tiles in 10 days pay better ?
14:16<Skau1>2-3 days ago.. i never thought i would ever be patient enough to play a game like this
14:16<Skau1>ive almost been playing it straight since i tried it first time
14:17<@Alberth>valuables are nothing special, they are just another cargo
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14:17<Skau1>http://norimg.no/bilder/345.png
14:18<@Alberth>there is a graph with cargo payments, which may be of interest to you
14:19<Skau1>Alberth: Wiki says it is the most paid cargo
14:19<Markk>I discussed with my gf if it was danish or norwegian.
14:19<Markk>None of us could say.
14:19<Markk>But I guess it's norwegian now. :)
14:19<Skau1>if what was danish or norwegian?
14:20<Markk>Your town names.
14:20<Markk>:)
14:20<Skau1>Skauen = Skau1
14:20<Skau1>in norwegian 1 is en
14:20<Markk>Same in Swedish.
14:21<Markk>Ah, now I'm with you. :)
14:21<Skau1>ett två tre fyra fem
14:21<Skau1>:)
14:21<Markk>:D
14:21<Markk>But I saw "AS", and from what I know it's AS in both Noreg and Denmark.
14:21<frosch123>just look at the currency :p
14:22<Markk>Kr?
14:22<frosch123>not danish
14:22<Skau1>We all use Kr
14:22<Skau1>:P
14:22<Markk>We have kronor in Denmark, Sweden and Norway, mate.
14:22<Skau1>Norway, Sweden and Denmark
14:22<Markk>And we'll have monarcs.
14:23<frosch123>what? hmm, i think only of øre when thinking of denmark
14:23<Markk>Haha
14:23<Markk>Öre is like cents in USD and Euro.
14:23<Skau1>AS is the same as LLC
14:23<Skau1>AksjeSelskap .. Limited Company
14:23<Markk>100 öre/øre is 1 krona.
14:24<Markk>Skau1: ah
14:24<frosch123>yeah, in now realize that...
14:24<Markk>:)
14:24<Skau1>we dont have 50 norwegian øre anymore
14:24<frosch123>maybe it is because everything is more expensive in norway
14:24<Markk>Skau1: Same in Sweden.
14:24<frosch123>i think i never had norwegian öre
14:24<+michi_cc>Skau1: Valuables might be what pays the most for a short, fast hop relatively seen, but generally coal makes the most profit because it loses less over time, so it is ideal for cross-map transport.
14:24<Skau1>you still have 10 Kr bills? :P
14:24<frosch123>while i remember having 50 danish öre
14:25<frosch123>currently i only have rouble
14:25<Markk>We removed 50 öre in Sweden in October 2010, and then I moved to Ireland (whom used Euro).
14:25<frosch123>10 rouble in paper from 1997, and 10 rouble in metal from 2008 :p
14:26<Skau1>Sweden mostly accept Euros too, right?
14:26<Markk>nope
14:27<Markk>Some places, yes, but mostly tourist shops and such.
14:27<Markk>And then you'll get the change in kronor.
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14:33<Wolf01>efening
14:35<@Alberth>hello Wolf01
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14:37<@Alberth>yo andy!
14:37<andythenorth>hello Alberth
14:40<andythenorth>anyone got a Simuscape login?
14:45<@Alberth>they are all afraid to admit ownership :p
14:45<andythenorth>was a genuine question :)
14:45<andythenorth>nvm
14:47<@Alberth>I am not surprised tbh, I never make accounts unless absolutely necessary, and a few newgrfs are not necessary enough for me
14:47<@Alberth>I guess there are more people like that
14:48<@Alberth>hmm, 4 days already, and no reply on my nml patch
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14:49<frosch123>@seen yexo
14:49<@DorpsGek>frosch123: yexo was last seen in #openttd 4 weeks, 2 days, 2 hours, 15 minutes, and 10 seconds ago: <Yexo> ^^ that rule is too general and not always applicable
14:49<frosch123>@seen hirundo
14:49<@DorpsGek>frosch123: hirundo was last seen in #openttd 4 weeks, 3 days, 5 hours, 50 minutes, and 49 seconds ago: <Hirundo> Noah's Ark 2.0 ?
14:49<frosch123>Alberth: does not sound so promising :s
14:49<@Alberth>they are on a holiday together, apparently :p
14:50<Chris_Booth>by the looks of it :P
14:50<frosch123>yeah, they were locked into a room to code nml non-stop
14:50<frosch123>there will be a 500 revision push afterwards
14:52<andythenorth>maybe they are working on migrating newgrf to xml
14:52<andythenorth>:P
14:52<V453000>I hope they noticed my nml error then :)
14:52<andythenorth>the nice thing about nml is that 'other people' can fix small bugs
14:52<andythenorth>I don't think I could fix a parser or tree bug :P
14:53<@Alberth>V453000: to be safe, find a few more :p
14:53<V453000>and this? :) http://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/3930
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14:54<andythenorth>see, the error even tells us where to look :)
14:54<andythenorth>L63 action2.py
14:54*andythenorth likes this
14:54*andythenorth is not going to fix it though :P
14:55*andythenorth -> pub, work to do
14:55<V453000>:D
14:55<V453000>could you please try sometime later? :)
14:55<andythenorth>see if Alberth will ;)
14:55<andythenorth>or maybe Eddi|zuHause
14:55<andythenorth>python is easy for real developers
14:55*andythenorth is not real
14:56<@Alberth>bye, virtual andy
14:56<Eddi|zuHause>"easy" is awfully close to "boring", though
14:56<andythenorth>ach
14:56<andythenorth>true
14:56<andythenorth>you should see the python I am unpicking :P
14:56<andythenorth>I wrote it in 2007
14:56<FLHerne>@seen Yexo
14:56<@DorpsGek>FLHerne: Yexo was last seen in #openttd 4 weeks, 2 days, 2 hours, 23 minutes, and 3 seconds ago: <Yexo> ^^ that rule is too general and not always applicable
14:57<frosch123>V453000: i think the error means that nml is out of action2 ids
14:57<andythenorth>FLHerne: that's been done, silly billy
14:57<frosch123>which means your grf is too complex :p
14:57<@Alberth>V453000: free_action2_ids.pop() <-- it looks like you run out of free action2 ids
14:57<andythenorth>it's as though I deliberately intended to make this old code as silly as possible :P
14:57<frosch123>try shuffling around some switches
14:57<V453000>sooo ... I am completely and utterly screwed? :D
14:57<V453000>alright
14:57<andythenorth>V453000: your set is big?
14:57<frosch123>put switches referencing each other after each other
14:57<V453000>kind of andy
14:58<V453000>right
14:58<V453000>will do
14:58<andythenorth>you have one massive block of switches shared by vehicles?
14:58<andythenorth>remember the god object pattern I mentioned? ;)
14:58<V453000>mhm :d
14:58<V453000>I have many switches
14:58<andythenorth>there's no need to run out
14:58<andythenorth>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_object
14:59<V453000>I know but trying to pick python and the stuff you refered to would take me about 10 years to absorb
14:59<andythenorth>I once thought I was running out, then someone (pikka) pointed out I was being stupid :P
14:59<andythenorth>V453000: you don't *need* templating to save on switch IDs
14:59<andythenorth>it's just easier
15:00<V453000>if I get the errors I am getting it seems like i Might :p
15:00<andythenorth>are all your switches at the top of your nml?
15:00<andythenorth>[might make no difference]
15:00<V453000>nope
15:00<V453000>should they be?
15:01<andythenorth>I'm not sure how nml compiles them, but it might help
15:01<andythenorth>but I'm just guessing
15:01<V453000>ok I will try
15:01<andythenorth>honestly though, this is a code smell :)
15:01<andythenorth>it doesn't smell great :)
15:01<V453000>well 12k lines of mess
15:02<V453000>ok 13 already
15:02<andythenorth>if I have time later this week - and you remind me - I'll have a look
15:02<V453000>:) ok
15:02<V453000>thank you
15:02<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause has about 1 million LOC for CETS, but doesn't run out
15:03<andythenorth>so it's solvable ;)
15:03<V453000>that is what I thought too :D
15:03<Eddi|zuHause>well, CETS is cheating :p
15:03<Eddi|zuHause>it's much closer to 2k loc
15:05<andythenorth>bye
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15:05<V453000>2k?
15:05<V453000>holy fuck
15:06<V453000>who is going to draw that? :D
15:06<V453000>I have like 100 and it took me a year almost
15:06<Eddi|zuHause>loc = Lines of Code
15:06<supermop>haha
15:06<V453000>oh xD
15:06<V453000>well there still is like 600 trains isnt it
15:07<Eddi|zuHause>yes
15:07<V453000>still a lot :)
15:07<Eddi|zuHause>i'm working on it :)
15:10-!-DNAGoa [~DNAGoa@c-9d61e455.1010-3-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #openttd
15:10<DNAGoa>Hello all
15:11<@Alberth>hi
15:11-!-Zeknurn [~Zeknurn@hd9483b0c.seveveb.dyn.perspektivbredband.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
15:11<DNAGoa>so what's up today?
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15:12<@Alberth>it is mostly passed already
15:12<DNAGoa>okay ... i think is just startet :P
15:13<V453000>hm I moved all switches to the top of the code and it shouts that some spriteset is undefined ... does it mean I need to define spritesets beforehand?
15:14<V453000>oh, spritegroup not spriteset
15:14<DNAGoa>Alberth where are you living?
15:16<@Alberth>mostly at home, at work, or in-between
15:16<V453000>hm so I moved all spritegroup definitions to the front of the code, after them are all switch definitions, and after that the rest ... same error
15:16<V453000>I guess I will try to kill a few pointless switches
15:17<DNAGoa>Alberth hmm like me, right now i am at home, but people ask me if i live in the office
15:17<@Alberth>you can sell switches too :)
15:17<V453000>if anyone will buy them :D
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15:18<Lg|Baxxster>Why did it just cost my train 1mill NOK to drop off cargo at my regular cargo area? :o
15:18<DNAGoa>cause is NOK :P
15:18<Eddi|zuHause>V453000: spritesets must be defined before the switches that uses them. and you want to have as little new defintions between the spriteset/switch and the last place it is used
15:19<Lg|Baxxster>Nono, it's not. Some trains actually get 3-4 mill income, but there as a couple of trains that actually COST 1 mill
15:19<Lg|Baxxster>don't know why
15:19<V453000>Eddi|zuHause: spritesets seem to work after switches, spritegroups dont
15:19<V453000>ah I see
15:19-!-Pixa [~pixa@79-74-235-32.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has joined #openttd
15:19<V453000>so I should make a spriteset definition -> spritegroup definition -> use it in switch
15:19<V453000>as close together as possible
15:19<Eddi|zuHause>yes
15:20<CIA-1>OpenTTD: frosch * r24177 /trunk/src/table/town_land.h: -Fix (r0) [FS#5148]: The arctic "shops and offices" used the "church" sprite in one of its four views.
15:20<V453000>that will be insane :D
15:20<V453000>I will kill my wonderful idea of a central train-stat switch first ... that is quite something too probably
15:20<Eddi|zuHause>it's how CETS does it.
15:20<V453000>right
15:20<V453000>I just did it the other way around so far
15:21<V453000>define all similar things in one place
15:21<Eddi|zuHause>basically that means you have all spritesets and switches for one vehicle together. and then all the spritesets and switches for the next vehicle
15:21<V453000>yeah
15:21<V453000>okay ... I will try, thank you
15:21<@Alberth>Lg|Baxxster: may happen in feeder systems
15:22<Lg|Baxxster>What would that mean in OpenTTD-world?
15:22<V453000>Eddi|zuHause: should I also define the vehicle item after the switch? Or can I make those in one long block?
15:22<V453000>I guess defining after the switch is better eh
15:22<@Alberth>Lg|Baxxster: http://wiki.openttd.org/Feeder_service
15:23<frosch123>what? no "whooo! r0!" :(
15:23<Lg|Baxxster>Thanks.
15:23<Eddi|zuHause>V453000: the graphics block, yes. the properties block, doesn't matter
15:23<V453000>oh
15:23<V453000>hmm
15:23<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: it's only marginally worse than r1 :p
15:24<@Alberth>Lg|Baxxster: there is a separate page about negative income
15:24<V453000>well this is going to be crazy
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15:24<Eddi|zuHause>V453000: make a script that does the reordering for you :p
15:24<Lg|Baxxster>Ok, but yes. Then it's a feeder system. Now I just have to figure out if it's a good thing to relay everything through my main goods-station or just route it directly
15:24<Eddi|zuHause>V453000: if you're insane enough, you can patch nml to optimize it
15:24<V453000>xd
15:25<V453000>I will rather do it by hand probably
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15:29<Lg|Baxxster>Ok, I'll have to fix that system, then :P
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15:47<frosch123>why are newgrf authors so stupid?
15:47<V453000>is it possible to make notepad able to collapse for example {} blocks like it is able to for example collapse <head></head> tags in html?
15:47<frosch123>it takes over one year that someone complains that the object name is not displayed in the object gui
15:47<V453000>or ... quickly possibel :D
15:47<V453000>notepad++ that is
15:48<frosch123>and if i now add it, it looks totally stupid, because every grf duplicated the name into the description
15:49-!-drac_boy [~drac_boy@bas1-ottawa08-1177643171.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #openttd
15:49<drac_boy>hi
15:49<flaa>hi
15:49<drac_boy>how're you flaa?
15:49-!-Belugas [~belugas@216.191.111.230] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
15:50<flaa>Just grand
15:50<flaa>you?
15:50<drac_boy>doing ok for now
15:51<drac_boy>what doing tho flaa?
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16:01<CIA-1>OpenTTD: frosch * r24178 /trunk/src/ (4 files in 4 dirs): -Fix [FS#5110]: The object name from property A was not displayed in the object GUI.
16:11<Eddi|zuHause> <V453000> is it possible to make notepad able to collapse for example {} blocks like it is able to for example collapse <head></head> tags in html? <-- usually, that is tied to the method of syntax highlighting used. so pick a language that uses {}, like C++ or java
16:12<Eddi|zuHause>or, make a dedicated syntax highlighting for nml
16:12<V453000>that is what I feared
16:13<V453000>oh ...
16:13<@Alberth>usually that is pretty simple
16:13<V453000>so for example a java editor would be able to do that ?
16:13<V453000>like netbeans
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16:14<@Alberth>tias
16:14<V453000>tias?
16:14<@Alberth>try it and see
16:15<V453000>ok :D thanks
16:16<Eddi|zuHause>V453000: notepad++ should just have a menu option to choose the language
16:17<V453000>yeah I chose XML there
16:17<Rienzilla>hmm
16:17<Rienzilla>hey guys
16:17<V453000>ha, Dreamweaver seems to do the thing I need
16:18<@Alberth>hi Rienzilla
16:18<Rienzilla>I just found out how addictive openttd is :-)
16:19<@Alberth>it is just a temporary disease, lasts a decade or so :p
16:19<Rienzilla>hehe
16:19<Rienzilla>I had an issue with station layouts yesterday
16:20<Rienzilla>I have a roro station, which is pretty much entry signal - branch - combo signal - waiting bay - exit signal - platform
16:22<Rienzilla>However, sometimes a train passes the entry signal, but takes a branch with only red combo or exit signals, blocking the entrance to the entire station until the train on the platform in front of it leaves
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16:22<drac_boy>Alberth you're a silly one heh
16:22<supermop>make sure the exit signals are two-way
16:22<Rienzilla>why? The trains leave on the other end of the platform
16:23<drac_boy>Rienzilla thats not the point
16:23<supermop>the train pathfinder sees them differently
16:23<Rienzilla>so the entry signals one way, and the exit signal 2-way?
16:23<supermop>with two way signals, the train prefers whichever is green
16:24<drac_boy>2-way means train would wait the signal before junction if they can .. 1-way means they "think" noone else would use the junction and plow up to the exit signal even if it wasn't meant to be
16:24<supermop>with one way, it prefers the shortest route path
16:24<drac_boy>not sure how else to word it right now
16:24<supermop>which might be red
16:24<@Alberth>wouldn't a path signal solve this?
16:24<Rienzilla>well, the thing is, it very rarely goes wrong even though the station is pretty heavily used
16:24<Eddi|zuHause>supermop: that hasn't been true for so many years now
16:24<drac_boy>anyone know what I'm trying to explain btw?
16:24<Rienzilla>Alberth: I split the station in two with a path signal
16:24<supermop>Eddi|zuHause: I haven't used exit signals for so many years now
16:25<Rienzilla>so it's not completely blocked now if a train overshoots the entry signal
16:25<Rienzilla>How do I make a screenshot :)
16:25<@Alberth>ctl+s
16:25<@Alberth>although I normally use an application to grab just a little piece of the window
16:26<Rienzilla>hold on
16:26<@Alberth>the idea of a path signal is that it only goes to a platform if there is one free
16:26<Rienzilla>well, a path signal would make a train continue to the next safe stopping point
16:27<Rienzilla>so if there's a red signal before the platform it'll simply continue
16:27<Rienzilla>Maybe a path signal without any other signals would work
16:27<@Alberth>so don't put one there, as it is not a safe place to stop :p
16:27<supermop>correct
16:27<Rienzilla>that seems too easy lol
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16:27<supermop>with path signals, you do not need a signal at the 'rear' of the platform, only the far end
16:28<supermop>and multiple trains can use the station throat at once
16:28<@Alberth>Rienzilla: if you want it more difficult, add one but in reverse :)
16:28<drac_boy>supermop don't you sometimes use a one-way pbs signal facing the platform to avoid one train blocking the whole junction just because it was slow to get out of the junction when a path still exists for another train?
16:28<@Alberth>with a 2-way path signal
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16:29<Rienzilla>I do that on most smaller stations
16:30<Rienzilla>hmm lol, just the path signal is fine indeed it seems :)
16:30<Rienzilla>thanks
16:33<Rienzilla>so with path signals, the entry-exit-combo signals are pretty much useless :)
16:34<@Alberth>indeed
16:34<@Alberth>there are still some advanced uses, I think
16:34<@Alberth>but you'll have to ask the openttdcoop gurus for that :)
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16:35*drac_boy uses programmable signals a lot mind you heh
16:38<Rienzilla>whats that?
16:41<drac_boy>think it might be better if you read the wiki part on it btw
16:41<drac_boy>ok? :)
16:41<Rienzilla>sure
16:41<@Alberth>programmable signals is not in plain OpenTTD
16:42<drac_boy>whats "plain"? :p
16:42<Rienzilla>the thing you download from the website :P
16:43<@Alberth>trunk, or a release
16:43<@Alberth>aka not patched :p
16:43<drac_boy>umm any version can be downloaded from 'website' :p
16:44<drac_boy>heh
16:44<FLHerne>Did the forums just crash? Or is that just me? :P
16:45<@orudge>no, they've not crashed
16:45<@orudge>I'm just doing a spot of maintenance
16:45<@orudge>shouldn't take long
16:45<@orudge>10-15 minutes I hope at the most
16:46<FLHerne>Oh, OK. I see your notice page now. It was timing out before
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16:54<Rienzilla>and btw
16:54<Rienzilla>is it porrsible to somehow make templates for things you build often?
16:58<@orudge>FLHerne: should all be fine now
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17:01*FLHerne returns to his compulsive forum-lurking
17:04<drac_boy>flherne have fun finding weird things :P
17:04<drac_boy>heh
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17:06<Iviv>evening all
17:07<Iviv>When running a dedicated server, is it possible to change anything in the openttd.cfg withough requiring a restart?
17:08<Rubidium>depends on the settings and what you want
17:09<Rubidium>the basic premise is that OpenTTD writes to the configuration file when closing down and only reads it when starting
17:09<Rubidium>there is a setting that allows rereading the configuration file when starting a new game in the dedicated server
17:09<Iviv>Thanks, figured as much
17:09<Rubidium>alternatively you can change settings using rcon
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17:10<Iviv>Ooh, what can you change like that? I assume there's limitations
17:11<Iviv>Ideally looking at chaning never_expire_vehicles but that's a biggy that I doubt can change without a server restart
17:11<Rubidium>most settings for new games and quite a few for the current game
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17:11<Iviv>Yeah, its for a server I'm running that's mid-game
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17:12<Rubidium>I think you can't change that setting on a running MP game
17:12<Rubidium>it's actually a setting stored in the savegame, so changing the config won't even change it for a loaded game
17:12<Iviv>Yeah, didn't think so
17:12<Iviv>Oh, really?
17:13<Iviv>Thanks for the help on that :)
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17:19<Wolf01>http://boingboing.net/2012/04/24/places-with-single-letter-name.html o_o
17:20<Nat_aS>what's the point of being able to rotate the square airports? Just asthetics?
17:21<Nat_aS>because I think it's funny that airports can be rotated by other buildings can't
17:22<V453000>I guess to make you able build them not only like a*b but also b*a
17:22<V453000>to fit in different places
17:22<V453000>which justifies only 2 rotations, but ... :)
17:23<Nat_aS>yeah, when I heard it was rotatble I just assumed you could make them longer or taller
17:23<Nat_aS>with the rotations just being mirrored sprites
17:23<Nat_aS>why did people bother drawing the backs of airports when all the other buildings don't have backs?
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17:25<Nat_aS>and if airports are rotatable, what's stoping people from hacking in a sim city 2000 esque pseudo map rotation.
17:26<Nat_aS>where the map rotates, but the buildings rotate as well so you never really see the backside.
17:26-!-mal2 [~mal2@port-92-206-121-113.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
17:29<oskari89>Maybe it's for future NewAirports?
17:31-!-frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590f73bf.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
17:31<Eddi|zuHause>Nat_aS: not all airports are rotatable. and not all other buildings are rotatable
17:31<@Terkhen>good night
17:31<Nat_aS>all airports in openGFX airports are rotatable.
17:31<Eddi|zuHause>Nat_aS: e.g. banks and hotels
17:31<Nat_aS>factories also
17:31<Nat_aS>they often have one or two chunks missing
17:31<Nat_aS>and thus cannot be swaped
17:32<Eddi|zuHause>Nat_aS: openGFX+ airports are not a default grf
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17:33<Nat_aS>yes, I know, but it wouldn't be as complicated as some other often requested features, Just new sprites for non square buildings, Eveyrything else can be cheated
17:33<Nat_aS>and I have to go now
17:43<Eddi|zuHause>"just new sprites" is more difficult than you think
17:43<Eddi|zuHause>you can't require opengfx, for example. and it's silly to push opengfx-style graphics into the original graphics
17:43<Rubidium>"just new sprites" for rivers took only a few years
17:43<Eddi|zuHause>and you can't copy the original graphics
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17:48<Eddi|zuHause>what does twitter need so fancy javascript for, that it can't live without?
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18:13<Skau1>ive built a trainstation next to a oilrig in the water now
18:13<Skau1>after i did this, i get almost no oil at all
18:14<Skau1>do you have to use boats for most effect?
18:14<Skau1>cant see anything about this on wiki
18:14<Skau1>all i know is that after i did this, i get no oil, even though the production is almost 2 million a month
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18:21<MNIM>could be the fact that they're trains, but I'd check first to see if you properly refitted to oil?
18:21<MNIM>*very* common error, even among the most regular of users.
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18:33<Wolf01>'night
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18:43<Skau1>refitted?
18:43<Skau1>its oiltankers on the trains?
18:44<Skau1>either way, i just removed one lane from the station, added a dock to it and set up 4 boats that is driving like .. 10 meters refilling it alle the time
18:44<Skau1>works like a charm now
18:44<Skau1>but the point was that i wanted to avoid using boats
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19:14<Rienzilla>Skau1: maybe it's because the oil rigs have their own docks?
19:14<Rienzilla>so they may not behave as a normal mine/factory
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19:17<Skau1>it still worked in a way
19:17<Skau1>i just didnt get close to the same amount of oil
19:19<Skau1>meh
19:20<Skau1>i give up making all the trains using same depot for maintnance
19:25<Skau1>i just disabled maintance from the orderlist
19:25<Skau1>and let the trains pick where they wanna go
19:26<Skau1>works fine.. dunno why i ive used to set the maintance in orderlist at all
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19:43<Rienzilla>yeah you just need to place your depots smartly
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21:07<Rhamphoryncus>aaargh. Almost done replacing a line with newer stuff.. oh look, the new wagon is finally available! :P
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21:17<javi>hola
21:18<javi>hi
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21:47<Skau1>ive made tons of overflow lanes now
21:48<Skau1>hopefully ive ficed most of my problems with pileups now
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21:55<Skau1>t
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22:49<Skau1>What is the best way to merge many lines into one?
23:04<Rhamphoryncus>That has no simple answer
23:06<Rhamphoryncus>Assuming they don't overload it just connect them
23:07<Rhamphoryncus>The issue is more about how to increase the capacity while still being a single line
23:07<Rhamphoryncus>A signal spacing of 2 helps. More HP/ton helps (faster acceleration means smaller gaps from the stop/start of a merge)
23:08<Rhamphoryncus>Longer trains (with the same HP/ton) helps due to having less gaps
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23:27<Rhamphoryncus>So.. the UKRS2 Deltic makes a sound that's *exactly* like the police helicopter outside
---Logclosed Wed Apr 25 00:00:38 2012