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#openttd IRC Logs for 2012-04-27

---Logopened Fri Apr 27 00:00:45 2012
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01:55<NGC3982>morning
01:57<telanus1>morning
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04:10*NGC3982 so wants to play openttd right now.
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04:25<MNIM>NGC3982: then why don't you do so?
04:26<NGC3982>i have about thirty people who needs to be taken care of.
04:27*NGC3982 administrates a customer service.
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05:40<drac_boy>hi
05:41<dihedral>greetings
05:42<drac_boy>hi dihedral how're you?
05:42<dihedral>... i know you?
05:42<dihedral>:-P
05:51*drac_boy wonders if you're sick? :P
05:51<drac_boy>heh
05:54<MNIM>ouch yea, NGC3982, that
05:54<MNIM>'s bad
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06:00<vichu>can anyone help me?
06:01<Eddi|zuHause>sorry, you're beyond hope...
06:01<vichu>y dont may cities allow mw to build?
06:01<vichu>it always says city local authority refuses to allo
06:02<Eddi|zuHause>because you destroyed too many trees
06:02<drac_boy>vichu stop axing/blowing up so much trees perhaps ;)
06:02<drac_boy>heh eddi lucky guess :)
06:02<vichu>how to rectify it now?
06:02<vichu>??
06:03<Arafangion>Plant a million trees.
06:03<@Alberth>if you have stations in the town, provide good service
06:03<@Alberth>Arafangion: we should fix that bug :p
06:03<vichu>anywhere in the map? i do provide good service
06:03<@Alberth>in the town
06:03<@Alberth>or near the town
06:03<vichu>if i plant a lot they ll allow me right?
06:04<@Alberth>and wait
06:04<drac_boy>vichu better, next time plan ahead :p
06:04<Arafangion>Alberth: Heh, seriously, though, it's expensive to pull it off!
06:05<@Alberth>Arafangion: I usually just go to some other part of the map, and come back later
06:05<@Alberth>except 'later' can be a lot later :)
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06:11<Arafangion>Alberth: Time heals all wounds. :)
06:20*Alberth nods
06:21<@Alberth>besides, if they don't want my services, I make my money elswhere :p
06:21<Arafangion>It's a different matter on very small maps.
06:21<Arafangion>Which is about all I can handle on this computer, but soon... Soon I'll have a beast of a computer.
06:22<@Alberth>I imaginve it can be highly annoying then, indeed
06:22<@Alberth>multiple CPUs is not going to make any difference :p
06:22<@Alberth>(well, hardly any difference, technically)
06:22<Arafangion>Alberth: Indeed not, I'm already dual-cpu.
06:23<CornishPasty>Oh my goodness, how do you manage to have 2 CPUs Arafangion?
06:23<Arafangion>Alberth: But going up from 1GHz Atom D525 to something like a 3.6 GHz quad-core 3820... Now, THAT will make a difference. :)
06:23*CornishPasty dreams of Xeons
06:23<@Alberth>what is small? I usually play 256x1024 or 512x512 or so
06:24<Arafangion>CornishPasty: That. :) But I can watch movies, and run x86 applications, and run a 24" screen all on ~50 watts.
06:24<CornishPasty>Arafangion: My 8150 runs at 28W TDP :P
06:24<Arafangion>CornishPasty: I measured that at the *wall*.
06:24<CornishPasty>Ah, my MBP runs 8 logical, 4 physical cores at 95W
06:25<@Alberth>it's good to keep a safe distance :p
06:25<Arafangion>Alberth: Small is... 64x64. :)
06:25<Arafangion>Alberth: Actually gets quite difficult! Because when you have such a tiny map, you very quickly connect all and every cargo.
06:25<CornishPasty>:O
06:25<CornishPasty>That's TEENY!
06:25<Arafangion>Alberth: So those industries eventually produce more and more cargo, which you still have to somehow deliver.
06:26<@Alberth>I once did FIRS at 64x64 with RVs, it was quite fun
06:26<Arafangion>FIRS?
06:26<Eddi|zuHause>every time i tried such small maps, i gave up rather quickly, because there is "nothing to do"
06:26<Arafangion>Eddi|zuHause: Just wait a bit, it gets Hard.
06:26<@Alberth>Arafangion: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=67&t=44177
06:27<CornishPasty>Ugh, that title is so tautologous it hurts, Alberth
06:27<@Alberth>which is very much not designed for a small map, so it gets swamped with industries, all different :)
06:27<Eddi|zuHause>it's recursive
06:27<CornishPasty>Yes, like LAME and PHP
06:27<@Alberth>and GNU
06:28<CornishPasty>Yup yup
06:28<Arafangion>But not like Hurd.
06:29<Arafangion>(Hird of Unix Replacing Daemons)...(Hurd of Interfaces Representing Depth)
06:29<Eddi|zuHause>this is the smallest map i played for a longer time: www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/Loisachkirchen%20Transport,%2013.%20Apr%202027.png
06:29<Eddi|zuHause>i believe that is 128x256 or so
06:29<Arafangion>Huge. :)
06:30<Arafangion>But when I get my massive machine, I intend to try the biggest map I can get my hands on.
06:30<Arafangion>And try to somehow link every industry on it, for good measure.
06:30<Arafangion>I'd have to finally figure out the traffic signals, too.
06:30<Arafangion>(I barely use them on small maps)
06:30<CornishPasty>traffic signals?
06:31<@Alberth>yes, at the rail tracks :p
06:32<@Alberth>Arafangion: I don't understand why people play anything bigger than 1024x1024, you just get more unused space, I think
06:32<@Alberth>Eddi|zuHause: looks nice, I cannot take the patience to get that far in the game :)
06:32<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: that's also the furthest i ever got in openttd :p
06:35*drac_boy usually sticks to 256x256 to 512x512 and inbetween most of the times :)
06:35<drac_boy>and never have anything to not do even 80 years later :)
06:36<Eddi|zuHause>i tend to neglect cargo transports, because passengers are trumping everything
06:37<Arafangion>Alberth: Greater profits due to greater distances?
06:38<Arafangion>What annoys me, is how utterly uncompetitive trucks and buses can be.
06:38<Arafangion>As in, I frequently struggle to even make them break even.
06:38<@Alberth>drac_boy: try 128x1024 one time :)
06:39<drac_boy>Alberth I kept meaning to play a customized map with flherne and perhaps others....I had been thinking of a skinny long map funny enough
06:39<drac_boy>maybe one day I'll finally host the game but we'll just have to see
06:39<@Alberth>hmm, 64x2048, did anyone try that?
06:40<@Alberth>sounds insane :)
06:40<Arafangion>I'd love to host some games, but my internet is shit here. :(
06:40<Arafangion>I should've used capital letters there, but you get the point. :)
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06:52<planetmaker>moin
06:53<planetmaker>Alberth: 64x2048 is great fun :-)
06:54<planetmaker>though I might have used 128 instead of 64... (checking PS archive)
06:55<planetmaker>http://wiki.openttdcoop.org/PublicServer:Archive_-_Games_181_-_190#gameid_185 <-- there you go, Alberth
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06:57<planetmaker>http://wiki.openttdcoop.org/PublicServer:Archive_-_Games_71_-_80#gameid_77 <-- and another, Alberth
06:59<@Alberth>thanks!
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07:21<Eddi|zuHause>the landscape feature functions don't work well with such extreme aspect ratios
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07:22<Hazzard>Hi
07:23<@Alberth>hi
07:25<NGC3982>afternoon
07:26*NGC3982 is on an old x14.
07:27<@Alberth>that's still 20
07:27<NGC3982>20? :)
07:28<@Alberth>x14 looks like a hexadecimal number to me
07:28<drac_boy>heh
07:30<NGC3982>ah:-) hehe
07:32<vichu>am playin 2048x2048
07:32<vichu>awesome map :D
07:33<planetmaker>too big :-(
07:33<vichu>yea but way awesome
07:33<vichu>u never get bored
07:34<planetmaker>especially your CPU won't get bored...
07:34<vichu>lol
07:34<planetmaker>For me those maps become unplayable / too cpu intensive way before I get bored. thus I avoid them
07:34<@Alberth>and you run into limits sooner
07:35<vichu>i just started
07:35<vichu>so its a long way
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07:38<planetmaker>Hazzard: RUNNING_COST_NONE indeed exists. Seems to be a base cost of 1. Thus no modification
07:38<V453000>for me these maps get unplayable shortly after i start - just cant orientate in such stupidly large map I know I will never fill anyway
07:39<planetmaker>yeah... small(er) maps make for a game one can actually finish :-)
07:39<vichu>wat will happen if my cpu usage increases?
07:39<planetmaker>And there's always a lot of tweaking one can do anyways
07:39<planetmaker>it will eventually lag, vichu
07:39<drac_boy>planetmaker I sometimes get to 2030+ without ever finishing at all some days :p
07:39<planetmaker>and thus be a very bad game experience
07:39<vichu>it doesnt lag for me
07:39<vichu>its proper
07:39<planetmaker>as your cpu simply can't do all the calculations in time which it would need to do
07:39<V453000>yet
07:40<planetmaker>yes, when you start, it is.
07:40<vichu>then wat happens?
07:40<planetmaker> But it will become more and more cpu heavy the more you advance in building the map, the more vehicles you have, the more industries, the more houses, ...
07:40<Hazzard>Doesn't the game just get reaallly sloww?
07:40<Hazzard>and time slows dowwwnnn?
07:40<planetmaker>Hazzard: yes. But ... the responsiveness to your keyboard and mouse as well
07:40<Hazzard>Like a black hole :P
07:41<planetmaker>and vehicles will seem to jump instead of move etc.
07:41<Hazzard>ofc
07:41<Hazzard>I have too much experience with that
07:42<vichu>omg
07:42<vichu>can u guys get a patch for no limits?
07:42<planetmaker>vichu: try http://wiki.openttdcoop.org/PublicServer:Archive_-_Games_211_-_220#gameid_219 or http://wiki.openttdcoop.org/PublicServer:Archive_-_Games_201_-_210#gameid_201 and see how that works for you ;-)
07:42<V453000>like more than 5000 vehicles? :D
07:42<planetmaker>they're NOT 2048x2048. But they're built-up games
07:42<vichu>yea :D
07:43<V453000>yeah try that ^
07:43<planetmaker>and then ask again about limits
07:43<planetmaker>(I can't reasonably play those)
07:44<V453000>most people cant
07:44<planetmaker>indeed
07:44<V453000>201 was really only for the last few
07:44<V453000>my laptop was unable too, and it doesnt struggle in most games
07:44<planetmaker>and those maps are only 512**2, thus they're 1/16 of 2048**2
07:44<vichu>so thats y i asked for no limit patch
07:45<Hazzard>Advanced settings?
07:45<vichu>u can run trains anywhere in the map in 2048*2048
07:45<vichu>everywhere industries :D
07:45<V453000>but why would you build more than 5000 trains
07:45<Hazzard>Yeah
07:45<V453000>you have some NASA PC or what?
07:45<vichu>lol
07:45<planetmaker>vichu: and ... please... give us the curtosy of writing proper English
07:46<vichu>5000 is the limit? and planetmaker
07:46<vichu>i cant get u
07:47<@Alberth>'u' and 'y' are not proper english words
07:48<vichu>lol
07:48<Hazzard>:)
07:48-!-CaveJohnson is now known as rails
07:48<planetmaker>I'll pretend to not understand sentences otherwise :-)
07:49*Alberth tends to read 'y' was 'yes', which makes no sense
07:49<@Alberth>*as
07:49<vichu>lol
07:49<vichu>so which is the best map?
07:49<planetmaker>the one which you have fun with
07:49-!-rails is now known as CaveJohnson
07:49<planetmaker>for a long time
07:50<planetmaker>greatly depends on playing style
07:50<vichu>no the best which will suit the cpu
07:50<@Alberth>I must have missed the best maps then :p
07:50-!-CaveJohnson is now known as rails
07:50<planetmaker>my playing style is best suited with maps smaller equal 0.25 Mega-tiles
07:50<planetmaker>thus 512**2 and equivalents
07:51<vichu>512*512?
07:51<@Alberth>vichu: anything bigger than 512x512 is useless for a single player
07:51<planetmaker>yes
07:51<planetmaker>Alberth: also for multiplayer... the limits really aren't different
07:51<V453000>256*256-512*512 is all great in all shapes
07:52<planetmaker>as the hardware requirements are the limiting factor. Actually more so in multiplayer than in single player
07:52<@Alberth>planetmaker: unless you play at a LAN perhaps
07:52<planetmaker>maybe... dunno :-)
07:52<vichu>hmmm ok
07:53<vichu>512*512 is also good
07:53<planetmaker>or 128 x 2048 ;-)
07:53<vichu>let me see tat now
07:55<planetmaker>vichu: but it really depends much on your playing style and also on your hardware
07:55<planetmaker>so... that's why I suggested to test out those heavy-cpu games I linked
07:55<drac_boy>hmm just had to wonder, what ways are there to cut down hardware load on an ottd map?
07:56<drac_boy>all I know of is more for the patch..using the lowmemory=on option and only having a 2x multiplier for maxvehicles (I rarely get anywhere close to that, I do go over the original limit at times tho hence 2x in that case)
07:59<vichu>yea 512*512 is good
07:59<vichu>and 5000 limit will be good too
07:59<vichu>so time to play the game :D
08:00<vichu>thank you alberth and planetmaker ;)
08:02<@Alberth>drac_boy: drop MP would help, as you can do mulit-core then :p
08:02<drac_boy>alberth aside to that
08:02<drac_boy>;)
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08:08<drac_boy>guess there isn't much to do then?
08:09<@Alberth>nobody has useful ideas how to make progress there :(
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08:10<drac_boy>heh ok, at least if I recall right someone in a game once mentioned that less or no trees cuts down ram useage noticeably
08:10<drac_boy>is that actually true?
08:11<@Alberth>don't know
08:11<@Alberth>ram usage is not the main problem imho
08:12<drac_boy>alberth...what is? :P
08:12<@Alberth>cpu use
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08:12<@Alberth>which is mostly due to train path finding
08:13<@Alberth>and a bit of newgrf callbacks iirc
08:13<Arafangion>Which is why I'm really looking forward to my new monster. :)
08:13<Arafangion>3.6 GHz of awesomeness.
08:13<drac_boy>alberth surely aren't train pathfinder quite 'low resource'? or do the patch and ottd differ?
08:13<drac_boy>because I don't see much hit on the cpu even with many pbs-enabled trains here re patch with busy map
08:13<drac_boy>Arafangion :-p
08:14<@Alberth>don't know what the patch does
08:14<Arafangion>drac_boy: You'll note that I brought this up the last time we were talking, too. :) Rather obsessing about it, but then again, I _am_ currently on a D525.
08:15<@Alberth>if it is like the original program, the OpenTTD PF is much better
08:16<drac_boy>Alberth if ottd is better then that means 500 trains on shared routes would barely need more than a 200mhz slice. just guessing roughly tho
08:17<@Alberth>much better pathfinding results I mean, not much better CPU use :)
08:17<Arafangion>:)
08:17<Arafangion>Is OTTD in git?
08:18<@Alberth>there is a git mirror
08:18<Arafangion>Mirrors are sucky.
08:18<@Alberth>and also a hg mirror
08:18<Arafangion>Ah, it's in svn.
08:19<planetmaker>ping curtana
08:19*Arafangion picks the mirror, as a result. :)
08:19<drac_boy>alberth...I've not noticed anything better except that ottd ships don't always like far-apart buoy by comparasion on other hand
08:20<drac_boy>but then what do I really know tho
08:20<planetmaker>Arafangion, in my experience working with the git or hg repo for dev is easier than the svn one
08:20<Arafangion>planetmaker: Yep, does'nt mean it's not sucky.
08:20<planetmaker>why?
08:20<NGC3982>:-) = .ndkd.
08:20<Arafangion>planetmaker: But then again, it's not like I have push access, so it's probably irrelevant.
08:21<@Alberth>drac_boy: ships are much more costly in CPU time than trains; too many paths to chose from
08:21<planetmaker>really, that doesn't quite matter... it might save a step. But it's an extra step to check for sanity. Thus it's not time lost IMHO
08:21<curtana>Hi planetmaker
08:21<planetmaker>you contacted me regarding OpenGFX
08:22<drac_boy>heh
08:22<Arafangion>Alberth: But the ship pathing can be much more naive, surely?
08:23<curtana>Yeah, rather than getting in over my head to start with just working on some sprites at the moment with a mate who does some dev work for OTTD
08:24<@Alberth>Arafangion: it already is; there is no collision concept at all
08:24<planetmaker>so what's your ideas / suggestions / contributions? :-) They sure are welcome
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08:25<Arafangion>Alberth: Not to mention, wouldn't the fitness function be very simplistic, as well?
08:25<Arafangion>Alberth: Quite possibly a simple distance function?
08:26<@Alberth>I think it is, but the problem is the number of paths that exist, at every tile you have about 3 directions to continue, and they are all equal
08:26<@Alberth>so you get an explosion in number of paths to pick the optimal one from
08:27<@Alberth>which is really just a big waste, as they are all equal ;p
08:27<@Alberth>but how to detect that is the problem
08:27<Arafangion>Alberth: You don't have to pick a /path/, really, just the next square.
08:27<curtana>I've got experience doing sprites and was going to look at jumping into learning NML and trying some bugfixes. Thinkin I'll start with fixing some trams prites for my friend first though.
08:27<planetmaker>Arafangion, you sure do...
08:27<Arafangion>planetmaker: For ships?
08:27<planetmaker>Arafangion, sure. Or you go the wrong direction
08:27<planetmaker>you can't cross land tiles
08:27<planetmaker>and want to do better than random walk
08:28<Arafangion>planetmaker: Well, you have to disregard the neighbouring land tiles.
08:28<planetmaker>there you go. That's path finding already
08:28<Arafangion>And then just pick the remaining neighbouring tile that has the cheapest result as determined by the fitness function.
08:28<Arafangion>Semantics!
08:29<Hazzard>Isn't that just like following the right wall of a maze till you reach the end?
08:29<planetmaker>curtana, OpenGFX itself has no trams. Base sets cannot have them. OpenGFX+ Road Vehicles has trams
08:29<planetmaker>but what do you understand under "fix"?
08:29<Arafangion>Hazzard: Possibly.
08:30<@Alberth>Arafangion: I'd suggest you do some experiments in a very simple setup to see what that approach does
08:30<planetmaker>Hazzard, Arafangion that's about the worst choice after random walk to reach a destination
08:30<Arafangion>Well, I've barely used ships... But don't they require a fairly liberal use of bouys?
08:31<planetmaker>curtana, but that said: surely OpenGFX+ Road Vehicles *can* use more trams than it already has. The three trams as present barely cover the needs
08:31<@Alberth>Arafangion: bouys are just a measure to reduce computation costs
08:32<planetmaker>also... YAPF does a not too bad job in OpenTTD 1.2.0 with its caching...
08:32<Arafangion>Sounds like I'd have to find time to do some pathfinding experiments.
08:32<curtana>planetmaker, not sure whether they are OpenTTD or TTDPatch he's just sent them through for me to work on. Still happy to help out with OpenGFX, just have no idea where to start :)
08:33<planetmaker>curtana, that's a good question. What do you like to improve? :-)
08:33<planetmaker>My personal wishlist includes houses which are not that noisy
08:33<Hazzard>This colormap grf stuff is awesome
08:34<planetmaker>The wishlist also includes toyland-specific sprites for the infrastructure (stations, RV stops, airports)
08:35<curtana>I can have a look at the houses.
08:36<planetmaker>how do you create sprites, curtana ?
08:36<planetmaker>Do you draw 8bpp? Or render 32bpp?
08:37<curtana>draw 8bpp is what I've done to date
08:38<drac_boy>8bpp for both small and large screens to me
08:38<drac_boy>:)
08:38<curtana>Have some experience with 3DSMAX a long time ago :) but not specifically rendering down to 32bpp
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08:44<planetmaker>ok, I'm just curious. It's your choice and 8bpp and 32bpp can be of different origin anyway :-)
08:45<Arafangion>Hmm, the source code looks pretty good, at first impression.
08:48<curtana>old fashioned pixelart. I did some work on the Japan Train set which is somewhere on TT-forums.
08:49*drac_boy just prefers 8bpp for a few reasons but thats to our own tho
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08:49<planetmaker>ah, yes, I know it. I love it :-)
08:49<planetmaker>And... it actually is also on the DevZone :-)
08:50<curtana>What's on teh DevZone?
08:50<planetmaker>curtana, do you know the OpenGFX repository and its friends? http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/opengfx
08:50<planetmaker>It's the home of nearly all open-source 3rd party stuff for OpenTTD
08:51<planetmaker>where you find their source codes, their bug trackers
08:51<curtana>I was having a look around on there today and tried playing around with mercurial but go t abit lost :P
08:51<planetmaker>or rather maybe issue trackers to put it more neutrally
08:51<planetmaker>:-) All you need for a start is
08:51<planetmaker>hg clone URL
08:51<planetmaker>and hg up REV
08:51<Arafangion>Man, the ship controller's heavily nested.
08:52<planetmaker>many projects rely on the a unix-like environment to build properly
08:53<Hazzard>Why are there so many more reds then CC greens/blues?
08:54<drac_boy>?
08:54<Hazzard>in the Palettes
08:55<@Alberth>hsitoric reasons probably
08:55<@Alberth>*historic
08:57<Hazzard>I originally drew my sprites in red
08:57<Hazzard>luckily I only used 8 shades
08:58<Hazzard>:/ actually 7
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09:00<Hazzard>They looks so weird green :P
09:01<drac_boy>be back later anyhow :p
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09:02<Hazzard>planetmaker: How can I make vehicle animations?
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09:36<Hazzard>V453000: Can you help me with something?
09:36<V453000>...
09:36<Hazzard>What should go in sprite_id: ?
09:36<V453000>where?
09:37<V453000>sprite_id SPRITE_ID_NEW_TRAIN yes Set this property to enable new graphics
09:37<V453000>sprite_id: SPRITE_ID_NEW_TRAIN;
09:37<Hazzard>Ok
09:37<V453000>this means that you use new sprites I guess
09:37<V453000>not some from base set
09:37<planetmaker>that's right
09:39<V453000>^^
09:39<planetmaker>you can animate vehicles by making use of the variable motion_counter
09:40<Hazzard>I think i'll figure that out later
09:40<planetmaker>you definitely should get a working vehicle first
09:41<Hazzard>I am about 5 minutes from that I think :D
09:42<Hazzard>Do either of you use gimp?
09:43<planetmaker>try again asking your real question ;-)
09:44<Hazzard>._.
09:44<planetmaker>or will it help you in any way, if you know that *someone* uses gimp?
09:45<planetmaker>http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html <-- Hazzard
09:45<planetmaker>it's really worth the read. And I don't mean it offensive :-)
09:45<planetmaker>It makes communication quite efficient to heed it, though
09:45<Hazzard>That is a lot of text
09:46<Hazzard>What are offsets?
09:46<planetmaker>yes, it's a bit. But I actually enjoyed reading it
09:46<V453000>offsets are something you will hate and love
09:46<V453000>^smart answer ^^
09:47<V453000>the offsets say how is the sprite positioned
09:47<planetmaker>offsets are alignment info
09:47<planetmaker>with respect to sprite's (0,0)
09:47<Hazzard>I am getting a "read beyond the image bounds of the image file" Could that have anything to do with the offsets?
09:48<planetmaker>http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/NML:Realsprites
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09:49<@Alberth>no, more with giving incorrect postions where the sprite is in the image
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09:55<Hazzard>It compiled
09:56<curtana>Night all
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10:00<Hazzard>Does there happen to be some magical colors that are already animated?
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10:01<planetmaker>Hazzard, please DO READ the wiki
10:01<planetmaker>it's all explained there
10:01<planetmaker>it even has a search bar
10:02<CornishPasty>planetmaker: lies!
10:03<planetmaker>do I?
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10:03<Hazzard>The wiki explains it all very well
10:03<Hazzard>But it takes me about 10 minutes longer
10:03<CornishPasty>Hazzard: SO TAKE 10 MINUTES LONGER
10:03<Hazzard>And it is easy being lazy
10:03<Hazzard>^^
10:05<planetmaker>Thanks for being that honest. Though I'll henceforth be lazy then, too. In answering questions as you obviously think that your time is more valuable than mine and it is blatantly obvious that you really don't care to do your homework
10:06<Hazzard>Fine
10:06<planetmaker>your realize that that attitude you showed is quite dis-respectful, yes?
10:07<Hazzard>Yes
10:07<Hazzard>Ok I see now
10:08<Hazzard>I was wondering why the guy was naming those colors strangly :/
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10:16<@Alberth>o/ andy
10:18<planetmaker>hi andythenorth
10:18<@Alberth>http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/1361/ ?
10:18<andythenorth>patch?
10:19<andythenorth>the town limit text is imho not improved, but the bales definitely is
10:19<andythenorth>I'll change it now
10:21*Alberth changes the dutch translation of the town limit too
10:22<andythenorth>I'm about to push
10:22<@Alberth>s/1/one/ ?
10:22<andythenorth>1 / one
10:22<andythenorth>changed
10:23<andythenorth>pushed
10:23<@Alberth>ok, thank you :)
10:26<@Alberth>dutch updated
10:26<andythenorth>thanks
10:27<@Alberth>and I don't even play with FIRS at the moment :p
10:27<andythenorth>do you play the game at all? :)
10:28<Mazur>No, the game plays with him.
10:29<planetmaker>who doesn't play 'the game'? ;-)
10:29<Mazur>Plugged him in with Bluetooth and uses him for a pathfinder.
10:29<CornishPasty>planetmaker: you just lost the game
10:29<CornishPasty></childish>
10:30<planetmaker>:-( drat
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10:30*Mazur is not 'on the game'.
10:30<@Alberth>Mazur: I am a very bad path finder, cannot keep left from right :)
10:36*andythenorth ponders
10:37<andythenorth>Alberth: any ideas about industry terraform hints?
10:37<planetmaker>Alberth, I just learnt a navi system which doesn't either ;-)
10:37<planetmaker>*learnt to know
10:38<planetmaker>can be quite confusing ;-) Luckily the display style was very good
10:38<planetmaker>and timing of announcements and their quality also
10:39<@Alberth>andythenorth: frosch had some ideas with relative requirements on slopes, but I don't know the details
10:39<andythenorth>quak?
10:39<andythenorth>no frosch :P
10:39*andythenorth wonders what other patches are needed for FIRS / newgrf industry
10:40<@Alberth>andy was also missing here for some time ;)
10:40<andythenorth>now is a good time to think about 1.3
10:40<@Alberth>planetmaker: so you wait until it makes a sound, ignore what it says, and look at the display? :)
10:41<planetmaker>the only thing to verify is left or right. The rest was accurate
10:42<andythenorth>hmm
10:42<andythenorth>only obvious patch is the cb15f one I wrote
10:42<andythenorth>other things:
10:42<planetmaker>and I learnt that the navi system in Ford vehicles is not worth a single penny
10:42<andythenorth>- stations at water industries are silly, but that needs New Stations / New Ports / New ***
10:43<CornishPasty>Na'vi?
10:43<planetmaker>navigation system
10:43<planetmaker>but probably I just don't get your joke ;-)
10:43<andythenorth>- industry closure has not really been considered properly, from ground up
10:44<andythenorth>maybe industry closure needs rethinking, accounting sanely for both NoGo and Newgrf
10:44<planetmaker>preferrably the answer is 'yes'
10:52<andythenorth>currently closure is very difficult to handle well
10:53<andythenorth>at least part of the difficulty is due to the mechanism: newgrf returns 'close next month' to game
10:55<andythenorth>ottd doesn't appear to maintain any list of industries which are then due to close
10:55<andythenorth>does ottd have any kind of data structures available besides the map?
10:57<planetmaker>all the vehicle, cargo packet, orders pools
10:57<planetmaker>stations
10:57<planetmaker>etc :-)
10:57<planetmaker>settings
10:57<planetmaker> :-P
10:58*andythenorth wonders about a newgrf var that could return list of industries already marked for closure (and type)
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11:01<andythenorth>if NoGo wants to close an industry, who should win? NoGo or Newgrf?
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11:04<@Alberth>not sure, for idle industries, it makes sense for the game to decide
11:05<@Alberth>what are good reasons to let the newgrf decide?
11:05<andythenorth>so the current setup is, newgrf wins
11:05<andythenorth>the current setup doesn't work brilliantly imho
11:05<andythenorth>but we have to preserve that spec
11:06<@Alberth>adding a 'please close' option, or is it a special case of 'please go down in production'?
11:06<@Alberth>the latter seems a bit awkward
11:06<andythenorth>maybe either
11:07<@Alberth>with a used industry, the player must get time to adapt to the industry shutting down
11:07<@Alberth>one month is not enough, especially as it is not findable in its window
11:08<@Alberth>(maybe with newgrfs it is different, don't know exactly)
11:08<planetmaker>Alberth, "please close" is by the definition of the production callback a special case of "change production"
11:09<planetmaker>but of course the callback is newgrf-decided
11:09<@Alberth>let's open a window "dear player, please apply magic bulldozer on this industry" :p
11:10<planetmaker>the newgrf basically can set any production level as it wishes: http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/Callbacks#Random_production_change_.2829.29
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11:11<andythenorth>every time I think about this I end up with precise same amount of puzzle
11:11<andythenorth>for good NoGo gameplay, NoGo should be able to force industries to close
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11:11<andythenorth>but for good industry-related gameplay, newgrf should control industry closure
11:12<andythenorth>hmm
11:12<@Alberth>please elaborate on the latter
11:12<@Alberth>what is good industry-related gameplay?
11:12<andythenorth>so newgrfs make promises about industries to player, e.g. deliver cargo, pickup cargo in certain ways, and production will increase / decrease, industry will stay open / close
11:13<andythenorth>but for scripted-scenario style play, NoGo needs to be able to impose on player 'boom, all industries near this town just closed. Bad luck!'
11:13*andythenorth ponders two classes of 'please close' event
11:13<andythenorth>sent by game or NoGo
11:14<andythenorth>class 1 is 'I am just managing the general economy, how do you feel about closing?'
11:14<andythenorth>class 2 is 'for narrative reasons, you need to close. Will you?'
11:14<@Alberth>the latter is a sudden change, /me would not like that type of game, but others may
11:14<andythenorth>so OpenGFX+ Industries might answer yes to both
11:14<@Alberth>I would like game that switch from one type to another type in say 10 game years or so
11:14<@Alberth>eg coal -> oil or so
11:15<andythenorth>Manual industries would answer no to both (depending on parameter)
11:15<andythenorth>FIRS would ignore class 1, but accept class 2
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11:16<andythenorth>Alberth: your example is narrative
11:16<andythenorth>'in this game, all coal mines start to close after date xyx, even if doing well'
11:16<andythenorth>so class 2
11:17<@Alberth>nope, I think. Production would slowly decrease (less demand of coal), and production of oil increases
11:17<andythenorth>that is harder to enforce without a major spec change
11:18<andythenorth>although 'close' is anyway a specific value for 'change production'
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11:18<andythenorth>so there could be two classes of 'change production'
11:18<andythenorth>one more highly weighted than the other
11:18<andythenorth>but then NoGo needs to know that, e.g. this is a coal mine
11:18<@Alberth>close == change production, in case production is about 0
11:18<andythenorth>NoGo is supposed to be blind to specific newgrfs
11:19<@Alberth>I don't know what NoGo can do w.r.t. cargoes, but that would be the control mechanism I guess (ie increase global production of cargo X)
11:21<@Alberth>there is another form of close, but perhaps closely related with industry mix. New industries become available, but old ones refuse to go
11:22<andythenorth>FIRS industries refuse to go
11:22<andythenorth>maybe they should go
11:22<@Alberth>yes, which means it is hard to get newer industries in the game
11:23<andythenorth>the original plan for FIRS was successive generations of industries
11:24<andythenorth>over-ruled by players who don't want disrupted networks
11:24<@Alberth>I don't know whether two classes is useful; a scenario like mine would be programmed by slow production changes, and then closure; a scenario like your nogo one would simply skip the 'slow production change' part
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11:25<andythenorth>so NoGo would specify amount of coal to be produced this month on map?
11:25<@Alberth>they do have somewhat of a point, at 30+ industries, and you move the industries every 20 years, that's a lot of work
11:26<@Alberth>that would make NoGo newgrf independent, I think
11:26<andythenorth>so it would be interesting if primary industry production changed radically
11:26<andythenorth>so that the amount of raw cargo produced was centralised
11:27<andythenorth>supplies etc would still be possible
11:27<andythenorth>let amount of coal be 10k tons
11:27<@Alberth>It sounds like fun to me, but that's just me, perhaps
11:27<andythenorth>let there be 10 nodes (coal mines)
11:28<andythenorth>let each mine produce 1k tons
11:28<andythenorth>now deliver supplies to mine 7
11:28<andythenorth>mine 7 now produces 2k tons
11:29<andythenorth>other mines produce 1k tons ea. total 11k tons for map
11:29<andythenorth>now coal is out of favour
11:29<andythenorth>let total amount be 5.5k tons
11:29<andythenorth>distributed to mines in same ratio
11:30<@Alberth>more random would be more fun imho
11:30<andythenorth>well you write the rules for that in NoGo
11:30<@Alberth>ie send out 'change production (up/down)' to random mines until you reach the desired level
11:31<andythenorth>I would set the levels directly
11:31<@Alberth>but NoGo does not do individual industries afaik
11:32<@Alberth>we could make a notion 'ease of getting the raw material' :)
11:36<andythenorth>Alberth: I am envisaging a whole new layer of spec
11:36<@Alberth>omg, what have I done???!?? :)
11:37<andythenorth>industry behaviour is a known problem anyway
11:38<@Alberth>Perhaps the issue is not opening/closing but production control in general. Open/close is just the first and last change, in that respect.
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11:39<andythenorth>yes
11:40<andythenorth>basically delegate aspects of production control to the script
11:41<andythenorth>via setting existing production level vars
11:41<andythenorth>ship a reusable industry library for nogo
11:42<@Alberth>it needs C++ code as well, as there may not be a NoGo script running (or a different one)
11:42<andythenorth>produce a default nogo script to go with the newgrf
11:42<andythenorth>if no other nogo in use, use that
11:42<@Alberth>andythenorth: via setting existing production level vars <-- are that global production levels or per industry?
11:43<andythenorth>per industry, but decide the values based on total production, or by any other rules
11:44<andythenorth>this idea only applies to primary-style production
11:44<@Alberth>hmm, 1 level per industry type would drastically reduce the number of news items :p
11:44<andythenorth>depends on how nogo triggers news messages :P
11:50<andythenorth>hmm
11:50*andythenorth needs to read industry_cmd
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11:50*Alberth needs some food
11:52<andythenorth>@seen zuu
11:52<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: zuu was last seen in #openttd 6 days, 3 hours, 57 minutes, and 37 seconds ago: <Zuu> (to gain better control over the transparency)
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12:17<andythenorth>so my idea is something like:
12:17<andythenorth>- allow NoGo to handle IndustryMonthlyLoop as an event
12:17<andythenorth>- give it two passes over the industries, the first is to read properties / variables
12:17<andythenorth>- the second is to set production level for each
12:18<andythenorth>the second pass appears to newgrf exactly as current production cb, unchanged
12:19<andythenorth>and newgrf can choose to defer to game (NoGo), or handle its own production change (no spec change)
12:19<andythenorth>the first pass could then be exposed to newgrf, allowing newgrf to handle reporting values to NoGo
12:20<andythenorth>the industry random production change could be handled identically. (I would bin it, but that's unlikely I guess)
12:20<andythenorth>that is all :P
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12:35<supermop>hello!
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12:51<Eddi|zuHause>how do i make shapes in GIMP? (circles, etc.)
12:52<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: you will NEVER EVER be able to tie FIRS to a script (or the other way around)
12:52<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: (1) why not? (2) that's not my proposal ;)
12:53<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: if GIMP is like photoshop, it has vector shapes, or shaped brushes with variable sizes
12:53<andythenorth>or you make a shaped selection (marquee) and fill it
12:54<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: if it does, i can't find it
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13:07<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: looks like you use selection tools http://docs.gimp.org/en/gimp-using-rectangular.html
13:07<andythenorth>you should have an eliptical select tool
13:08<Eddi|zuHause>I've found a "paths" tool, but that seems to do bezier curves only
13:08<Eddi|zuHause>or similar stuff
13:08<Eddi|zuHause>nothing remotely circle-ly
13:08<andythenorth>don't do circles with bezier
13:08<andythenorth>world of painful pain
13:09<andythenorth>you have a square selection tool (marquee) ?
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13:09<andythenorth>http://docs.gimp.org/en/gimp-tool-ellipse-select.html
13:09<Eddi|zuHause>does libre office come with a vector program?
13:10<andythenorth>just use PIL directly :P http://www.pythonware.com/library/pil/handbook/imagedraw.htm
13:10<andythenorth>why draw when you can code :)
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13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: translators * r24184 /trunk/src/lang/ (catalan.txt hungarian.txt polish.txt romanian.txt):
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: catalan - 12 changes by arnau
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: hungarian - 13 changes by Brumi
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: polish - 30 changes by Kilian
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: romanian - 13 changes by tonny
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14:02<flaa>Iltaa!
14:04<@Alberth>where is .ie ?
14:04<Rubidium>ireland?
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14:07<__ln__>that's right. it's the smaller island behind the bigger one on the coast of belgium.
14:07<Eddi|zuHause>you mean the isle of man?
14:08<Rubidium>that'd be .im
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14:09<andythenorth>hmm
14:09<andythenorth>where's my NoGo idea
14:09<__ln__>actually, to avoid causing an international conflict, i have to emphasize that ireland is the southern part of the said island.
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14:10<Eddi|zuHause>ireland is in the south of ireland.
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14:10<andythenorth>anyone want to educate me on NoGo's basic implementation?
14:10<andythenorth>i.e. how it handles events, and what things it can do practically, without bogging the game
14:11<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: in the beginning there was dust and sand
14:11<andythenorth>and then town growth?
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14:11<Eddi|zuHause>(or how "basic" did you mean? :))
14:12<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: each tick, the script is continued at the last position it stopped.
14:13<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: the script is stopped if it a) executes a command, or b) the operations-per-tick limit is reached
14:13<andythenorth>k
14:13<andythenorth>one command only per tick? Or is the command 'done' ?
14:14<Eddi|zuHause>command is game interactions (build something, etc.)
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14:14<andythenorth>k
14:14<andythenorth>NoGo can handle events from ottd?
14:14<andythenorth>and return values to events?
14:15<Eddi|zuHause>the script can check whether certain events occured. but there is no "interrupt handling" for events
14:15<andythenorth>k
14:15<Eddi|zuHause>and the script cannot return any values
14:15<Eddi|zuHause>commands are the only way to influence the game state
14:15<andythenorth>so my idea of handling IndustryMonthlyLoop is pretty dead
14:16<andythenorth>hmm
14:17<andythenorth>well it was a nice idea, while it lasted
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14:18<Eddi|zuHause>why do i have the CIV intro tune in my head now?
14:18<andythenorth>better than the fast food jingle I have in my head :(
14:19<Eddi|zuHause>and why is that tune not in CIV V?
14:19<Eddi|zuHause>or is it, and i just never saw the intro? :)
14:22<NataS>morning
14:25<NataS>how does multiplayer work? Can I turn an existing game into a multiplayer one so I can consult other players?
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14:27<Eddi|zuHause>yes, you can load any savegame as multiplayer game
14:27<NataS>if I run cargodist, will there be problems for people joining my game?
14:27<Eddi|zuHause>yes. people need the exact same version of cargodist then
14:28<NataS>is there anybody who would mind a consulting job in my company who runs cargodist g1de4d2a5-cd
14:29<NataS>(that's the version number right? If not where can I find it?)
14:29<Eddi|zuHause>yes, that is the version number
14:30*NataS is used to version numbers just being simple decimals.
14:30<@Alberth>welcome to the git version control system
14:31<Eddi|zuHause>the version number for non-releases is: one letter indicating the source control system (r: svn, h: mercurial, g: git), the revision as a decimal or hexadecimal value, and the name of the branch
14:32<Eddi|zuHause>so here you have "g" for "git", "1de4d2a5" as a hash value indicating the revision, and "cd" as the branch name
14:37<NataS>anyways it's 2080 and I'm a quarter of the way down cuba with almost unlimited funds at this point, but I'm stumped as to how to extend my high speed rail network north of Havana
14:37<NataS>i could use some consultants.
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14:53<supermop>what's up with the 'latest user screenshot of 1.2.0'?
14:53<supermop>pretty sure that is unchanged since the first time I downloaded Openttd in 2008 or so
14:54<NataS>hey, how come food is getting evenly distributed to every town on the line, but goods all get offloaded at the first station?
14:54<NataS>what's up with that?
14:55<Eddi|zuHause>supermop: yes. it's silly :p
14:55<NataS>no wait now it's working
14:56<Eddi|zuHause>NataS: the first few packets may get generated with "no destination"
14:56<Eddi|zuHause>NataS: then they will get off at the first place that accepts them
14:59<NataS>oh
14:59<NataS>I see
14:59<NataS>cool
14:59<planetmaker>supermop: yes, it's indeed silly...
14:59<supermop>No desire to fix it?
14:59<planetmaker>though there are "updated" ones behind it. But... not from 1.2 actually...
14:59<planetmaker>yet
15:00<supermop>should that just be removed from the front page?
15:00<NataS>well I have a factory and food plant on opisate ends of my network
15:00<NataS>and I have freight trains running between them refitting on both ends
15:00<NataS>:3
15:00<supermop>or the caption could just say 'screenshots'
15:01<supermop>planetmaker: I'll try to draw you what I meant for rivers later this afternoon, have to run to a site visit
15:01<planetmaker>supermop: did you read my (recent) reply?
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15:02<planetmaker>and the screenshots should not be removed but updated rather
15:03<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: didn't you want to put the competition intro games as screenshots?
15:03<planetmaker>yes I did and I do
15:12<andythenorth>anybody want to draw Sugar Beet tiles for CHIPS?
15:13<andythenorth>I'm rejecting the ticket otherwise
15:13<andythenorth>Rhamphoryncus: you tried this? ^
15:13<@Alberth>make it a low priority feature request :)
15:13<andythenorth>wish I knew what this meant :P http://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/3343
15:13<Rhamphoryncus>Yeah, but it'd take me forever
15:14<andythenorth>I want to close all CHIPS tickets soon
15:14<andythenorth>it's nearly 'done' as far as I'm concerned
15:14<andythenorth>;)
15:14<Rubidium>smells like an (ancient) nforenum warning
15:14<Rhamphoryncus>is that an error from nmlc?
15:14<andythenorth>nfo
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15:16*andythenorth suppresses it
15:20<Chris_Booth>@seen Ammler #
15:20<@DorpsGek>Chris_Booth: seen [<channel>] <nick>
15:20<Chris_Booth>@seen Ammler
15:20<@DorpsGek>Chris_Booth: Ammler was last seen in #openttd 2 days, 9 hours, 27 minutes, and 44 seconds ago: <Ammler> else you can use the forums or flyspray
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15:23<andythenorth>4 open tickets for CHIPS
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15:25<andythenorth>hmm
15:26<andythenorth>is auto-refit still dangerous with cb36 etc?
15:26<Chris_Booth>hi andythenorth
15:28<andythenorth>can vehicle / model life be fixed?
15:28<andythenorth>currently it's pretty useless
15:28<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: there was some good suggestion for that recently....buy menu availability cb?
15:29<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, something like that
15:31<andythenorth>post-stable release is good patching time :)
15:32<@Alberth>good night all
15:32<andythenorth>seems like a simple cb: return 00 for hide, or any other value to show?
15:32<andythenorth>bye Alberth
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15:33<andythenorth>or return the climate availability to match the current prop, but that might be odd
15:35<Chris_Booth>I need to have /ignore cb in this channel
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15:36<andythenorth>needs a var: check availability of vehicle id
15:38-!-theholyduck [~holyduck@82.147.59.59] has joined #openttd
15:41<andythenorth>only 122 newgrf issues assigned to andythenorth :) :P :o
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15:42<Chris_Booth>andythenorth: you need a new helper, and a donate button so we can help you for making the game great for us!
15:42<andythenorth>Chris_Booth: just wait until bananas charges $1.99 for newgrfs
15:42<andythenorth>all will be fine then
15:42<Chris_Booth>I would pay that any day
15:42<Chris_Booth>and not even think of it
15:43<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: and return "callback failed" for default (random) behaviour?
15:44<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: or a value for 'use default', e.g. 04 or such
15:44<andythenorth>but yes
15:45<Ammler>Chris_Booth: Hello :-)
15:45<andythenorth>this is probably a 7 line patch; seems like it's just a switch statement and add the constants for the cb number
15:45<Ammler>do I need to read back?
15:45<Chris_Booth>Ammler: no I have done it now
15:45<Chris_Booth>check PZ
15:45<andythenorth>adding a var to check availability of other vehicles might be harder :|
15:46<Chris_Booth>I paid for some beer for you Ammler :P
15:46<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: should think about it in conjunction with nogo :P
15:46<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: just pass the vehicle id to a 40+/60+ var?
15:47<andythenorth>sounds plausible
15:47<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: but how to handle the "phases" wrt reliability?
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15:47<andythenorth>not sure, I don't really understand them properly
15:47<__ln__>hi Wolf01
15:47<andythenorth>hmm
15:47<Wolf01>evenink
15:47<Ammler>Chris_Booth: ok, the less money I need for the server I will spend for beer, no big issue ;-)
15:47*andythenorth had a silly idea: var calls availability cb for vehicle with id xyz
15:48<andythenorth>*might* be circular :P
15:48<Eddi|zuHause>and how do i attach wires to this thing?
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16:00<krinn>hi guys, where can i reserve the 4 chars AI/lib to use in bananas ? I can't put my hands on the thread in the forum, is it delete?
16:08<planetmaker>probably it's a sticky in the NoAI / scripts forum
16:09<krinn>that's what i was looking, but it's no more there
16:09<NataS>nobody wants to try co-op with me?
16:11<Eddi|zuHause>it says "use a max. 3mm screwdriver"... but apparently their 3mm seem to be smaller than my 3mm...
16:11<planetmaker>NataS: there are the coop servers...
16:11<andythenorth>try '2 and a bit'
16:12<NataS>yes, but I want to bring other players into my existing single player game
16:12<NataS>to help me expand my high speed rail network
16:12<planetmaker>krinn: http://wiki.openttd.org/AI:ShortNames_in_use
16:12<Eddi|zuHause>or they meant "use brute force"
16:12<NataS>it's the year 2093 and my network covers a quarter of cuba
16:12<NataS>and I am stumped as how to elegently extend it north of Havana
16:12<krinn>planetmaker, oh gone to the wiki, can anyone add a new one for me ?
16:13<planetmaker>you do that yourself ;-)
16:13<planetmaker>(that's why it was moved to the wiki)
16:13<krinn>never touch a wiki in my life, and don't wish to put hell on it
16:13<planetmaker>too bad then ;-)
16:13<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: use a hammer
16:14*andythenorth ponders
16:15<andythenorth>convert HEQS to nml?
16:15<Eddi|zuHause>what for?
16:16<NataS>also, no servers match my version
16:16<NataS>:P
16:16<andythenorth>so I can use the BANDIT code for articulated vehicles, refitting to different lengths etc
16:16<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: port HEQS to the BANDIT codebase...
16:16<andythenorth>exactly
16:16<andythenorth>HEQS has a lot of vehicle-specific code though
16:16<andythenorth>BANDIT is 100% generic
16:16<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: only port over the vehicle data and sprite offsets, throw everything else away
16:17<andythenorth>yes
16:17<andythenorth>I'd start from scratch pretty much
16:17<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: do FIRS economies first :(
16:17<Eddi|zuHause>:)
16:17<andythenorth>planetmaker: ^^
16:17<andythenorth>I can't do FIRS economies in CPP
16:17<planetmaker>:-)
16:18<andythenorth>that's planetmaker or yexo level stuff
16:18<andythenorth>I could do it in python, but the conversion would be a lot of work :P
16:18<planetmaker>you sure could do that in NML, too ;_)
16:19<andythenorth>we'd want to conditionally change a lot of defines etc
16:20<andythenorth>that means nesting varadic macros or such
16:20<andythenorth>or....
16:20<andythenorth>we just duplicate all the code for each economy
16:20<andythenorth>and set the defines appropriately
16:21<andythenorth>big, but simple
16:21<planetmaker>I'd do it like in OpenGFX+Industries, first just changing availability of industries
16:21<planetmaker>and maybe then 2nd step parameter-dependent properties
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16:22<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, this smaller screwdriver works way better
16:23<andythenorth>we should probably only change action 0 props anyway
16:23<andythenorth>anything else is a nightmare for testing / bug reports
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16:23<Eddi|zuHause>i think cargo availability is the most troublesome
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16:23<planetmaker>anything else is anyway a 3rd step only. And we need to see how steps 1 and 2 work out, IMHO
16:23<Eddi|zuHause>if you want to have different cargo subsets
16:24<planetmaker>yes
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16:30<andythenorth>fortunately the game handles cargo availability quite well already
16:30<andythenorth>if cargo not available, but define in action 0 for industry, nothing blows up
16:37<Eddi|zuHause>yes, but if SCMT is not defined, you'd want to change the steel mill output to 4 per ore and 4 per coal. or 6/2
16:39<planetmaker>also yes ;-)
16:40<andythenorth>true, but more complicated
16:40<andythenorth>lots of {string} :P
16:41<Eddi|zuHause>your idea of just duplicating the industry might come in handy there
16:43<andythenorth>"simple is simpler" :P
16:43<andythenorth>if I did my maths correctly, it produces a ~10MB grf :
16:43<planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause: the output level could work via cargo availability checks to be normalized to the desired max output level
16:43<planetmaker>that probably can be generalized somewhat to work w/o ifs
16:44<andythenorth>if we have to use ifs, it definitely gets worse :P
16:45<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: i don't think you have to duplicate the sprites
16:45<andythenorth>no
16:46<andythenorth>hmm
16:47<andythenorth>if it was python-based, I'd make each industry type an object subclassing Industry
16:47<andythenorth>each economy would just be a list of industry objects
16:48<andythenorth>I'd template those in with action 7 wrapped around them, all sharing the graphics chain
16:50<Eddi|zuHause>problem is that you cannot skip action2 with an action7
16:50<Chris_Booth>Eddi|zuHause: can you skip both with an action9?
16:50<Eddi|zuHause>no
16:51<Eddi|zuHause>can't skip action2 with an action9 either
16:51<Eddi|zuHause>and you can't change it with action6
16:51<andythenorth>I wouldn't need to skip the action 2s afaict
16:53<NataS>are there ANY co-op servers that use any version of cargodist?
16:53<andythenorth>they do no harm
16:54<NataS>I want to try co-op, but i Just can't go back to trunk.
16:54<Eddi|zuHause>NataS: i know that problem...
16:54<Eddi|zuHause>i've had that for many years now :)
16:55<Eddi|zuHause>NataS: you need a pretty close community to use a non-release build in multiplayer, though
16:55<NataS>sure cargodist is less than perfect, but not having any sort of cargo destinations is the opposite of perfect.
16:56<zxbiohazardzx>NaTaS there where some realms that play on custom builds (eg Chrillcore Patchpack
16:57<zxbiohazardzx>if that contains CargoDist then you can try that as tehre are some that do
16:58<NataS>how do I find them?
16:59<zxbiohazardzx>like you would do on others
16:59<zxbiohazardzx>just hit multiplayer and check if you get any greens (matching revision)
16:59<NataS>it's all red
16:59<zxbiohazardzx>thats how me/roma/ext used to play huge maps with the patchpack etc
16:59<NataS>everything red forever
17:00<zxbiohazardzx>then your revision =/ other revisions
17:00<zxbiohazardzx>alot of them are on stable
17:00<zxbiohazardzx>but sometimes you get a few on patchpack
17:00<zxbiohazardzx>if not then just ask on forums if anyone is interested
17:00<zxbiohazardzx>:P
17:01-!-Rhamphoryncus [~rhamph@d161-184-227-133.abhsia.telus.net] has quit [Quit: Rhamphoryncus]
17:01<NataS>i have come to the conclusion that all the good maps are too big for one player
17:02<Rubidium>then they're probably too big for multiplayer as well
17:02<NataS>lol
17:02<NataS>why do people keep making huge maps
17:03<NataS>:P
17:03<planetmaker>that's a good question. I wonder, too
17:03<zxbiohazardzx>lies
17:03<planetmaker>They just see the big map and the many possibilities. But are not aware of the game's limits
17:03<zxbiohazardzx>i played a 2048x2048 with everything
17:03<zxbiohazardzx>Cindini map in multiplayer
17:03<Rubidium>come on, the only good maps are 16kx16k
17:03<zxbiohazardzx>i haz savegame to share
17:04<zxbiohazardzx>2048x2048 with paxdest & huge cities, it lags balls even in SP if you try to view the wrong regions
17:04<zxbiohazardzx>:P
17:05<zxbiohazardzx>to bad its on patchpack, else i would upload it for your stresstest :P
17:06<NataS>well what kind of PC do you use?
17:06<zxbiohazardzx>gaming pc
17:06<NataS>I have an i7 and 6gb of ram
17:06<zxbiohazardzx>intel i7, 16 gb ram, geforce gtx 560 win 7 x64
17:06<NataS>damn
17:06<NataS>so it lags even with that setup?
17:07<zxbiohazardzx>yes
17:07<zxbiohazardzx>ever seen the cindini map?
17:07<NataS>also, what happens if you press fast forward on a tiny map?
17:07<zxbiohazardzx>the 3.0 is downloadable via BaNaNa's
17:07<zxbiohazardzx>im not a fast-fowarder
17:07<zxbiohazardzx>i use pause more often then i use ffw
17:08<NataS>i can fast forward when using my netbook, but it's dangerous to use that on my gaming laptop
17:08<NataS>esp on a small map
17:08<NataS>time can slip away
17:08<zxbiohazardzx>just grab the Cindini map 3.001 from Banana's
17:08<NataS>there should be a setting to throttle maximum possible speed
17:08<zxbiohazardzx>and go to capitola
17:08<NataS>link?
17:08<zxbiohazardzx>banana's has it
17:08*andythenorth -> sleep
17:08<andythenorth>bye
17:08-!-andythenorth [~Andy@cpc23-aztw25-2-0-cust33.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: andythenorth]
17:09<zxbiohazardzx>wait your on patchpack right?
17:09<NataS>I'm just on cargodist
17:09<zxbiohazardzx>nvm we used some custom grf's :P so hard to share :P
17:09<zxbiohazardzx>just grab the map
17:09<NataS>and don't know what Bananas is
17:09<NataS>is that the check online content thing?
17:09<NataS>i didn't know it had a name
17:09<zxbiohazardzx>yes
17:10<zxbiohazardzx>the check online content thingy
17:10<NataS>can't find it
17:10<zxbiohazardzx>Cindini?
17:10<zxbiohazardzx>its in the list for sure
17:10<NataS>oh that one
17:10<NataS>yeah
17:10<zxbiohazardzx>;)
17:10<zxbiohazardzx>anyway
17:10-!-Zeknurn [~Zeknurn@hd9483b0c.seveveb.dyn.perspektivbredband.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
17:10<NataS>if it's the one I think it is
17:10<zxbiohazardzx>statistics on the played map
17:10<NataS>it looks amazing
17:10<NataS>but it's unplayable for me
17:10<NataS>no room to lay tracks
17:11<NataS>not without demolishing huge portions of the city
17:11<NataS>or removing the highway system
17:11<zxbiohazardzx>lies
17:11<NataS>maybe a bus network?
17:11<zxbiohazardzx>nope
17:11-!-Zeknurn [~Zeknurn@hd9483b0c.seveveb.dyn.perspektivbredband.net] has joined #openttd
17:11<zxbiohazardzx>we actually have stations in the cities
17:11<zxbiohazardzx>dont be affraid to nuke hard in the towns
17:11<zxbiohazardzx>we got it done :P
17:11<zxbiohazardzx>anyway
17:11<zxbiohazardzx>ill screenshot some stats for it 1 sec
17:11<NataS>can I see screensho... lol sniped
17:12<zxbiohazardzx>hehe
17:13-!-Chris_Booth [~chatzilla@host81-154-230-134.range81-154.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88.2 [Firefox 12.0/20120417165043]]
17:14<zxbiohazardzx>so hard to capture shit in a screeny though
17:14<zxbiohazardzx>as its really nicely fitted in
17:14<NataS>take a full sized one
17:14<zxbiohazardzx>so you hardly notice it zoomed out to much :P
17:14<NataS>:P
17:14<Mazur>Use a fan, that's always good for capturing shit.
17:15<zxbiohazardzx>to lazy
17:15<NataS>how did they make the beaches in this map?
17:15<zxbiohazardzx>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=60&t=58204&p=1011775#p1011775
17:15<zxbiohazardzx>rivertiles or canaltiles
17:16<NataS>did they have to flood the area first?
17:16<zxbiohazardzx>higher up in the thread are screenshots of ownage
17:16<zxbiohazardzx>map overvieuws are higher up, the statistics are lower down
17:16<NataS>how is building in the cities possible without cheating though?
17:16<zxbiohazardzx>and ingame screenshots used to be in romazoon's thread, untill something went wrong with the attachements (they wont show for me, to old or so i recon)
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17:17<zxbiohazardzx>NataS we did cheat slighly to start off some cash
17:17<zxbiohazardzx>but by carefully selecting some initial routes
17:17<NataS>but I imagine bribes eat that up quickly
17:17<zxbiohazardzx>you can actually later on use your insanity profits to keep it up
17:17<zxbiohazardzx>haha
17:17<zxbiohazardzx>nope
17:17<zxbiohazardzx>auto-demolish is on indeed :P
17:17<NataS>auto-demolish?
17:17<zxbiohazardzx>to lazy to modify the game to make cities accept even more
17:17<NataS>you mean the magic bulldozer
17:17<zxbiohazardzx>yes
17:18<zxbiohazardzx>magic bulldozer is on
17:18<zxbiohazardzx>cause city size is not accounted for in the attitude towards changes :P
17:18<zxbiohazardzx>anyway stats are shown :P
17:18<NataS>maps like this make me think some kind of hybrid between sim city and TTD would be intresting
17:19<zxbiohazardzx>haha
17:19<NataS>play as the local authority and "Zone" areas
17:19<zxbiohazardzx>well whopper spend ALOT of time on that map
17:19<NataS>then coperate with the people playing as transport companies
17:19<zxbiohazardzx>and me/roma/ext played alot of games after/before this one
17:19<zxbiohazardzx>so we all liked realistic networking
17:19<zxbiohazardzx>and maps
17:20<zxbiohazardzx>and playing with a graphically neat style (mainly cityscaping as we called it)
17:20<NataS>I think the worst thing about huge maps like this is the inibility to zoom out all the way
17:21<zxbiohazardzx>yeah instead of extra zoom (more zoomed in) i would have prefered extra zoom (more zooming out possible)
17:21<NataS>yeah, I don't get the point of zooming further in
17:21<zxbiohazardzx>but im not sure how that works out for the devs
17:21<NataS>it will just make things more ugly and less usefull
17:21<zxbiohazardzx>32bpp use it
17:21<planetmaker>8bpp also uses it
17:22-!-supermop [~daniel_er@rrcs-72-43-171-87.nyc.biz.rr.com] has joined #openttd
17:22<zxbiohazardzx>still
17:22<zxbiohazardzx>would more zooming out give issues with map-array or shit like that?
17:22<NataS>to zoom out, just censor all the vehicle sprites and compress the map
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17:23<supermop>planetmaker: yes
17:23<NataS>Hmm, I supose deleting some of the redundent factories would make nice room for freight stations
17:24<NataS>still have to demolish other things to make room for the tracks though, why are these all in the water
17:24<NataS>maybe this map is designed for boats
17:24<zxbiohazardzx>hehe
17:24<zxbiohazardzx>nah
17:24<zxbiohazardzx>we railed it all
17:25<zxbiohazardzx>see image 5, accerbol :P
17:25<NataS>boats would take forever in this map thought
17:25<zxbiohazardzx>and were on v2
17:25<zxbiohazardzx>so less industries
17:25<zxbiohazardzx>we rail it
17:25<NataS>there needs to be a ship speed factor setting
17:25<NataS>to make them move faster
17:25<zxbiohazardzx>the water and parks are there for a reason
17:25<zxbiohazardzx>we actually did use some boats
17:25<NataS>like the aircraft speed setting
17:25<zxbiohazardzx>but we limited it on multiplayer
17:25<zxbiohazardzx>alot of boats on huge map ==> pathfinder lagged us i believe
17:30<NataS>i just flodded the El Circatriz river
17:30<NataS>:3
17:33<NataS>anyways, if anybody can run cargodist g1de4d2a5-cd I'd love to hire them as a consultant for my cuban rail network.
17:33<zxbiohazardzx>hehe jump to capitola haha
17:33<zxbiohazardzx>send me a rar with everything i need, then ill check
17:33<zxbiohazardzx>rar with executable && grfs i might need :P
17:33<zxbiohazardzx>3 more screens for you btw
17:33<zxbiohazardzx>same topic
17:35<NataS>uhh, I don't remember what grfs, but they are all from the loader
17:35<NataS>and common ones
17:36<NataS>so you will likely either already have them, and if not you can just download them automaticly
17:36<zxbiohazardzx>just rar me a file that i can execute here
17:36<zxbiohazardzx>thats ok
17:36<zxbiohazardzx>just get me the exe then
17:36<NataS>windows 7 64?
17:36<zxbiohazardzx>si
17:36<NataS>of course, you said you had an i7 derp
17:37-!-Stimrol_ [~Stimrol@dsl-149-87-36.hive.is] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net]
17:38<NataS>just let me wait for my dropbox to sync
17:39<NataS>http://dl.dropbox.com/u/24299180/openttd-cargodist-g1de4d2a5-cd-windows-win64.zip
17:39<NataS>here we go
17:39<zxbiohazardzx>thx
17:39<zxbiohazardzx>unzippin
17:40-!-th_gergo [~thiering@1F2E8CA3.catv.pool.telekom.hu] has joined #openttd
17:40<NataS>okay it should be online now
17:40<NataS>Habana Rail
17:40<NataS>password is Pete
17:40<zxbiohazardzx>checking
17:41<zxbiohazardzx>nothing found, got IP for me?
17:41<zxbiohazardzx>ip&port :P
17:42<NataS>how do I find that?
17:42-!-Xaroth [~Xaroth@059-057-128-083.dynamic.caiway.nl] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
17:42<zxbiohazardzx>whatsmyip.com
17:43<NataS>131.191.34.64
17:43-!-Progman [~progman@p57A19B11.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd
17:44<zxbiohazardzx>nope still wont pick it up
17:44<NataS>hmm
17:45<NataS>I had problems with other games
17:45<NataS>and I don't remember how I solved them lol
17:45<zxbiohazardzx>usually its ports etc
17:45<NataS>do you have uhh, that thing
17:45<NataS>Can't remember wat it was called
17:45<NataS>but it set up a vurtual lan network
17:46<NataS>oh I don't have it on this install either lol
17:46<NataS>well what ports need to be open?
17:47<zxbiohazardzx>not sure
17:47<zxbiohazardzx>see wiki on multiplayer FAQ
17:47<Rubidium>might it be the ports in the multiplayer documentation?
17:47<zxbiohazardzx>3979 is default, but you can change it :P
17:48<zxbiohazardzx>3979 inbound+outbound UDP , 3978 outbound UDP
17:50<NataS>maybe just refresh aggain?
17:51<zxbiohazardzx>1 sec
17:51<zxbiohazardzx>if not then ill try host
17:51<zxbiohazardzx>nope
17:52<zxbiohazardzx>try it
17:52<zxbiohazardzx>Natas is the name if it worked
17:53<NataS>can't find any with that name
17:54<NataS>or any green ones
17:54<zxbiohazardzx>`hmmz k
17:54<zxbiohazardzx>93.208.93.109:3979
17:54<zxbiohazardzx>neither?
17:56<zxbiohazardzx>how bout now (changed port triggering
17:57<NataS>says server offline
17:58<zxbiohazardzx>k
17:58<zxbiohazardzx>can you try once more?
17:58<zxbiohazardzx>as in you host
17:59<NataS>hosting
18:00<zxbiohazardzx>still not detecting
18:00<zxbiohazardzx>so dunno
18:00<zxbiohazardzx>i hate my network anyway
18:00<zxbiohazardzx>router -> router -> computer
18:00<zxbiohazardzx>fucked up if you need to foward ports etc
18:01<NataS>It might be my end that's causing shit
18:02<zxbiohazardzx>nah i think i got correct outbound now
18:02<NataS>maybe we can try hamachi?
18:02<zxbiohazardzx>screw hamachi
18:02<zxbiohazardzx>hosted another, lets see if i fixed ports now
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18:03<NataS>negative
18:04<zxbiohazardzx>ok lemmy try on the default 1.2.0 games
18:04<zxbiohazardzx>see if anyone else can check it
18:06<zxbiohazardzx>hosting a test on 1.2.0
18:06<zxbiohazardzx>64x64 map
18:06<zxbiohazardzx>anyone able to connect ?
18:07<zxbiohazardzx>also on a Dedi mode :P
18:08<zxbiohazardzx>udp/tcp packets from 3979 cannot be delivered :P
18:08<NataS>lol
18:09<NataS>tried to take a whole map screenshot and nither PSelements or SAI can open it
18:09<zxbiohazardzx>looking at the router, those ports are open
18:09<zxbiohazardzx>haha
18:09<zxbiohazardzx>still the same
18:09<zxbiohazardzx>any ideas on how to fix TCP/UDP port triggering not going as expected?
18:09<NataS>nor can paint
18:09-!-supermop [~daniel_er@rrcs-72-43-171-87.nyc.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: supermop]
18:09<NataS>how do I crop a 43 meg png file?
18:10<zxbiohazardzx>haha
18:10<zxbiohazardzx>just google on huge picture how to solve
18:10-!-oskari89 [~oskari89@213-186-253-165.bb.dnainternet.fi] has quit []
18:13<NataS>looking it up I find there are people who have to minipulate 16 gb immages
18:13<NataS>:C
18:13<Eddi|zuHause>NataS: "normal" image viewers will try to unpack the whole file into memory
18:13<NataS>apparently these are synthetic aperture radar images.
18:14<zxbiohazardzx>http://www.freewebs.com/dutcharmedforces/Untitled-1.png
18:14<Eddi|zuHause>NataS: so you want one which can handle partial images
18:14<zxbiohazardzx>Eddi any suggestions for that?
18:14<CornishPasty>zxbiohazardzx: you want port forwarding, not triggering
18:14<zxbiohazardzx>CornishPasty hmmz
18:15<CornishPasty>I don't know what port the dedicated server talks to the master server on...
18:15<zxbiohazardzx>how do i foward it haha
18:15<zxbiohazardzx>3979
18:15<CornishPasty>Virtual Servers, zxbiohazardzx
18:15<zxbiohazardzx>has it as well
18:15<NataS>hamachi should work
18:15<NataS>it usualy works in situations like this
18:16<CornishPasty>NataS: I'd use imagick for cropping large files :P
18:16<zxbiohazardzx>CornishPasty still same
18:17<zxbiohazardzx>http://www.freewebs.com/dutcharmedforces/Untitled-2.png
18:17<CornishPasty>zxbiohazardzx: I don't know then, I run my openttd on a vps
18:17-!-DDR [~chatzilla@d66-183-121-60.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #openttd
18:17<zxbiohazardzx>im just trying to get it to accept/run over internet
18:18<zxbiohazardzx>but i keep hitting port issues
18:21<zxbiohazardzx>brb checking something
18:24-!-Hazzard [~72f6456f@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has joined #openttd
18:26<Hazzard>Hello
18:28<NataS>hi
18:29-!-Progman_ [~progman@p57A199ED.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd
18:30<zxbiohazardzx>btw i think Cornish there is another router blocking it
18:30<zxbiohazardzx>i have a modem/router that is linked to the actual router
18:30<zxbiohazardzx>i thought that first router/modem was simply passing it all through
18:30<zxbiohazardzx>but i now have to check :P
18:30<zxbiohazardzx>192.168.50.1 is the router i can change
18:30<zxbiohazardzx>now i need to find out the ip for the other one :P
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18:40<Wolf01>'night
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18:48<NataS>well trying to open it in IMDisplay, it hasn't crashed yet, but it's not responding
18:49<NataS>megabytes dosn't seem THAT large.
18:49<NataS>42 megs rather
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19:02-!-zxbiohazardzx is now known as there
19:02<there>hmmz
19:03-!-there is now known as ZxBiohazardZx
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19:03<ZxBiohazardZx>so i have to foward ports or trigger them?
19:05<ZxBiohazardZx>blegh
19:05<ZxBiohazardZx>now i get "not a valid IP" stuff :(
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19:11<ZxBiohazardZx>wootwoot i think i nailed it
19:11<ZxBiohazardZx>took long enough :P
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19:46<Hazzard>Is there a way to make RVs cost more then the 255x cost_factor?
20:00-!-drac_boy [~drac_boy@modemcable085.125-161-184.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #openttd
20:00<drac_boy>hi
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20:04<Hazzard>Hello
20:09<drac_boy>how're you Hazzard?
20:11<Hazzard>Good, you?
20:12<drac_boy>doing ok, just trying sort out a few major things with no luck as usual -_-
20:13<Hazzard>What kind of things are you trying to sort out?
20:15<drac_boy>a laptop, some way to deal with the various videos here, a bit re this grf tracking table sheet I have, bit about cellphones
20:15<drac_boy>thats them basically :)
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20:38<drac_boy>what you doing hazzard?
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21:57<Hungarian1986>hello
21:58<Hungarian1986>is anyone around?
21:58<Hungarian1986>i could use some help
21:59<Hungarian1986>because no matter what i do the 1.2.0 can't run with the base graphics
21:59<Hungarian1986>it write an error that there aremissing sprites
21:59<Hungarian1986>and it has strange font type, what is annoying, and also some missing GUI guttons
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22:06<Hungarian1986>can anyone help?
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22:38<Hungarian1986>hello
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---Logclosed Sat Apr 28 00:00:46 2012