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#openttd IRC Logs for 2012-04-28

---Logopened Sat Apr 28 00:00:46 2012
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02:38<@Terkhen>good morning
02:45<NGC3982>morning :)
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02:49<NGC3982>any tip on grfs i can use with the nuts trainset? :)
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03:06*andythenorth caused an assert
03:20<@Terkhen>you broke the game
03:20<@Terkhen>now we need to create another one
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03:27<@Terkhen>good morning Alberth
03:27<@Alberth>moin Terkhen
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03:39<ZxBiohazardZx>NataS around?
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04:00<ZxBiohazardZx>i guess not :P
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04:32<@Alberth>you can usually test with the auto-completion failing (or not)
04:33<ZxBiohazardZx>what sorry?:P
04:33<@Alberth>you don't have nick auto-completion (eg type Zx<TAB>)
04:34<@Alberth>with me, it expands to the list of nick starting with Zx
04:37<ZxBiohazardZx>why would i need that, i got a list of all nicks ont he channel on the side
04:37<ZxBiohazardZx>i can tab as well
04:37<ZxBiohazardZx>but the fact i can auto-complete to it
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04:37<ZxBiohazardZx>doesnt mean they are here reading it
04:37<ZxBiohazardZx>it just means they hover in teh channel
04:37<ZxBiohazardZx>its IRC, afking isnt unusual
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04:43<NGC3982>nick<tab> is un-living-without-full.
04:44<Hazzard>Um, what?
04:50<Eddi|zuHause><NataS> 42 megabytes dosn't seem THAT large. <- but the uncompressed image will easily be several GB. (e.g. 32bpp, 16k*32k pixels = 2GB)
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04:54<ZxBiohazardZx>that was yesterday no?
04:54<ZxBiohazardZx>i was around when he was talking about that :P
04:58<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: so what are you wanting from FIRS economies? Fewer industry types? Different game balance?
04:58<@Alberth>o/ andy
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04:59<@Alberth>fewer would be useful for new players, I think
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05:01<ZxBiohazardZx>most industry replacements have either way to much options (ECS vectors) or simply require a different playstyle, where a lower ammount of types would certainly help
05:01<planetmaker>A few limited subsets would make sense
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05:02<planetmaker>Like discussed much earlier: maybe mining, agriculture focus as two
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05:02<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: i'm thinking a "basic set", "agricultural set", "chemical set", "industrial set" and "complete set"
05:02<ZxBiohazardZx>similar setup as ECS then?
05:03<ZxBiohazardZx>as imo that is exactly what ECS did
05:03<Eddi|zuHause>no, less combinations
05:03<ZxBiohazardZx>split it up in some sets/vectors
05:03<ZxBiohazardZx>and then have insane ammounts of combinatories
05:03<Eddi|zuHause>and you guys change colours immediately!
05:04<andythenorth>I had originally: Basic Mining Farming Oil Seafaring Tropical Island Metropolitan Heavy Industry Mountains
05:04<ZxBiohazardZx>wood -> timber -> goods, Crudeoil -> useable oils/plastics -> goods, Iron ore+coal -> steel -> goods
05:04<Eddi|zuHause>i'm regularly going crazy for discussing with two people having the same colour :p
05:04<ZxBiohazardZx>keep it simple
05:04<ZxBiohazardZx>end product of each chain is goods
05:04<andythenorth>hmm let's try that with spaces
05:05<ZxBiohazardZx>so you have wood -> goods via timber, oil -> goods via plastics/petrols and minerals -> goods via steel
05:05<ZxBiohazardZx>then i think i left out the agriculture
05:05<ZxBiohazardZx>so lets add in some lifestock/weat/plantations etc -> food in there as well
05:05<ZxBiohazardZx>for the sake of it
05:05<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause so I worked out combinations of cargo + industry for:
05:05<andythenorth>All, Basic, Mining, Farming, Oil, Seafaring, Tropical Island, Metropolitan, Heavy Industry, Mountains
05:05<ZxBiohazardZx>that gives you a really basic industry setup
05:06<andythenorth>I'm not sure some of those are valid though
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05:07<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: "basic" should have fewer agricultural goods, like only a grain farm and a livestock farm, no milk, fibres or stuff. also non-essential industries like scrapyards be taken out.
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05:08<planetmaker>andythenorth: all those might be good economies. But not well defined. Starting with fewer might be better
05:08<ZxBiohazardZx>keep it simple as i mentioned
05:08<ZxBiohazardZx>end product is goods for ALL industries (so yeah im killing off powerplants
05:08<andythenorth>ZxBiohazardZx are you talking about FIRS or something else? ;)
05:09<Eddi|zuHause>ZxBiohazardZx: there are no power plants in FIRS
05:09<ZxBiohazardZx>im talking industries in general
05:09<andythenorth>ZxBiohazardZx: are you designing your own set?
05:09<ZxBiohazardZx>but applies to FIRS i recon :P
05:09<ZxBiohazardZx>i always found FIRS and ECS a bit to confusing
05:09<Eddi|zuHause>ZxBiohazardZx: you are answering a question that was not asked
05:09<ZxBiohazardZx>im good at that
05:09<ZxBiohazardZx>boredom hit me hard
05:09<ZxBiohazardZx>i dont wanna look at the 1283 issues on TC
05:10<ZxBiohazardZx>nor at the 25 assigned to me
05:10<Eddi|zuHause>ZxBiohazardZx: as such, you are not helping the discussion
05:10<ZxBiohazardZx>so yeah :P
05:11<andythenorth>so there are currently zero known bugs in FIRS
05:11<andythenorth>0.7.4 will go out today
05:11<andythenorth>0.7.5 has a few things I want to fix
05:11<andythenorth>but 0.8.0 could add economies
05:11<andythenorth>it's either that, or animation / snow graphics
05:12<andythenorth>I think economies will need lots of tweaking, so I don't want to dump them into 1.0 at the last minute
05:13<FLHerne>andythenorth: What economies were you thinking of?
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05:14*FLHerne just missed it then :-(
05:15<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: not sure what "tropical island" is supposed to be, but i'm thinking any two economies should have some chains in common
05:16<Eddi|zuHause>so let's call the current FIRS economy "diverse", reduce it to a "basic" by leaving out half the cargos. then from that derive "industrial", "agricultural" and "chemical" by adding some cargos
05:16<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: +1
05:16<Eddi|zuHause>in that order
05:17<andythenorth>I envisage significant commonality / overlap between economies
05:17<andythenorth>with the easter egg of one industry and one cargo that is only available in a certain economy
05:17<Eddi|zuHause>you would still have ore and coal mines in the agricultural economy
05:17<Eddi|zuHause>to produce machines and stuff
05:17<Eddi|zuHause>but the "farm supplies" could be split
05:18<Eddi|zuHause>so you have half the economy for the supplies mechanism, and the other half of the economy for food processing
05:18<andythenorth>I considered a phosphate mine for this economy
05:18<andythenorth>should farm supplies be easy or hard to obtain in this economy?
05:18<Eddi|zuHause>yes, more detailed fertilizer chain as one of the supplies
05:19<Eddi|zuHause>hard... or rather complex
05:19<andythenorth>I've long wanted to split FMSP
05:20<andythenorth>adding animal feed and fertiliser as specific cargos
05:20<andythenorth>makes no sense in 'default' FIRS
05:20<andythenorth>but might here
05:20<Eddi|zuHause>industrial economy would focus on secondary products like cars
05:20<andythenorth>that's the 'heavy industry' economy in my mind
05:21<andythenorth>adds things like auto parts, rubber
05:21<Eddi|zuHause>for chemical i have no concrete idea yet
05:21<andythenorth>me neither
05:21<andythenorth>I had 'oil' economy, which added oil sands and rig supply yard
05:22<andythenorth>and 'rig supplies' became an explicit cargo
05:22<andythenorth>e.g. drilling mud (clay + chemicals), machinery
05:25<Eddi|zuHause>possible would also be a "first world economy", where you have no mines, but import primary cargos by harbours, which you need to export secondary goods to, to increase production
05:25<Eddi|zuHause>and a "third world" economy, the other way around
05:26<Eddi|zuHause>or: you start out with mines, but they cannot be created in the game
05:27<Eddi|zuHause>and they only decrease production
05:27<Eddi|zuHause>so you would eventually have to build up the harbours
05:27<Eddi|zuHause>similar to the temperate oil well/oil rig
05:30<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: I want to add harbours
05:30<andythenorth>they need a good reason to exist though
05:31<andythenorth>railroad tycoon has a pretty straightforward import/export model
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05:31<andythenorth>supply some commodity in, get some commodity out
05:32<andythenorth>e.g. you have sheep, you send wool to a harbour, get oil
05:32<Eddi|zuHause>well, in the "first world" economy, they would effectively replace mines.
05:32<@Alberth>refitting industries? :p
05:32<Eddi|zuHause>with some modified supplies mechanism
05:33<andythenorth>supplies is the hard part
05:33<andythenorth>already they're a headache, making it more complicated won't go well
05:33<andythenorth>but I'm open to suggestions
05:40*Alberth has no experience with supplies
05:40<ZxBiohazardZx>is there a way to generate heightmap from a savegame?
05:40<ZxBiohazardZx>or convert savegame (strip it completely) to scn?
05:42<ZxBiohazardZx>elaborate for me
05:43<ZxBiohazardZx>console command ingame or scn-editor trick?
05:43<Eddi|zuHause>you can export as heightmap, or you can load in scenario editor and remove all player-owned property
05:43<ZxBiohazardZx>export as heightmap -> how
05:43<Eddi|zuHause>there should be a menu option for this in 1.2.0
05:43<ZxBiohazardZx>using the Chrill patchpack
05:43<ZxBiohazardZx>so its not 1.2.0 i recon
05:43<ZxBiohazardZx>could it not be done pre 1.2.0?
05:43<Eddi|zuHause>it should already be in ChillPP
05:43<ZxBiohazardZx>doesnt show in menu
05:44<Eddi|zuHause>the ? menu i presume
05:44<ZxBiohazardZx>so its not on the hfe846ddd i have
05:46<ZxBiohazardZx>so pre 1.2.0 it wasnt possible to export heightmaps directly
05:46<ZxBiohazardZx>or load savegames in scn-editor :(
05:47<@Alberth>if you don't count trunk, then yes
05:47<ZxBiohazardZx>i can grab generation seed
05:47<ZxBiohazardZx>but that wont make the landscape exact clone
05:47<ZxBiohazardZx>unless you also have teh same difficulty settings etc right?
05:47<@Alberth>there are more parameters involved than just the seed number
05:47<ZxBiohazardZx>yeah i figured
05:48<ZxBiohazardZx>but i can guess some :P
05:48<ZxBiohazardZx>mountainious, very rough, high towns, low industries :P
05:48<ZxBiohazardZx>anything else involved?
05:48<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: chemicals might overlap heavy industry
05:48<@Alberth>ie look at the world generation window
05:48<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: chemical might also overlap agriculture
05:49<ZxBiohazardZx>ow and ofc map-egdes, but ihaz those
05:49<ZxBiohazardZx>ow i forgot
05:49<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: but the focus may be on another place
05:49<ZxBiohazardZx>CPP fucked up generation of maps
05:49<ZxBiohazardZx>not enough heigh-difference
05:49<@Alberth>nah, it "improved" it :)
05:50<ZxBiohazardZx>1.2.0 matches the 1.0.0 i used earlier
05:50<@Alberth>but I have seen heightmaps from cpp
05:50<ZxBiohazardZx>where CPP's generation is completely numbstomb flats
05:50<Eddi|zuHause>ZxBiohazardZx: tried the "restart" command?
05:50<ZxBiohazardZx>Eddi i dont want to restart, i need to get the heightmap
05:50<ZxBiohazardZx>and restart on CPP makes it ugly flat
05:50<ZxBiohazardZx>i did that, its wtf bad
05:50<Eddi|zuHause>ZxBiohazardZx: you need to set "alpinist" when loading a heightmap in ChillPP
05:51<ZxBiohazardZx>im not loading heightmap
05:51<ZxBiohazardZx>i was generating random
05:51<ZxBiohazardZx>i have a savegame i want to export to heightmap
05:51<ZxBiohazardZx>but pre 1.2.0 that wasnt possible i heard
05:53<ZxBiohazardZx>but i have a similar map on 1.2.0 now :)
05:53<ZxBiohazardZx>close enough for now
05:55<ZxBiohazardZx>ffs fucking idiots on university net
05:55<ZxBiohazardZx>webdata wont allow me to download .scn files
05:55<ZxBiohazardZx>.png etc work fine
05:55<ZxBiohazardZx>but i have to rar stuff :(
05:56<Eddi|zuHause>just rename it to .scn.txt?
05:56<ZxBiohazardZx>cant:P its on university PC's / network
05:56<ZxBiohazardZx>so i can only download/browse
05:56<ZxBiohazardZx>not rename etc
05:56<Eddi|zuHause>ssh into it?
05:57<Eddi|zuHause>what kind of stupid university do you have?
05:57<ZxBiohazardZx>just a webdata/login that allows you to download your files to different location
05:57<ZxBiohazardZx>TU Delft
05:58<Eddi|zuHause>i'm fairly certain it's possible, they just didn't tell you how
05:58<ZxBiohazardZx>its possible, but not for every student
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06:00<ZxBiohazardZx>8. Will I be able to use remote desktop, X, or another type of connection to my workstation from outside TU Delft?
06:00<ZxBiohazardZx>This is possible by exception only.
06:01<ZxBiohazardZx>there might be ssc ICT telewerken option
06:01<ZxBiohazardZx>but not sure this is actually possible for students (might be employee only)
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06:01<ZxBiohazardZx>yeah employee only
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06:44<andythenorth>Alberth: Terkhen planetmaker want to do a last-minute FIRS translation update? (new 'available from' string)
06:45<@Terkhen>when are you planning to release?
06:45<planetmaker>want yes. But the butcher's closing and I need to get BBQ stuff ;-)
06:45<@Alberth>Terkhen: yes :)
06:45<@Terkhen>and I'm with the family today, but I guess that a single string shouldn't take much time, let's see
06:46<andythenorth>I'm planning to release in next hour or so...
06:46<planetmaker>there surely will be a next release :-)
06:46<@Alberth>holy crap, many strings :)
06:47<andythenorth>Beschikbaar vanaf?
06:47<andythenorth>Verfügbar ab?
06:47<andythenorth>Disponible en:
06:48<andythenorth>most of the new strings are just dates
06:48<andythenorth>no translating needed
06:48<@Alberth>fine by me :)
06:49<@Alberth>should I push?
06:49<andythenorth>I'll do them
06:49<@Alberth>ok, you do them :)
06:52<SpComb>push the button!
06:52<@Terkhen>andythenorth: wait, I'm translating
06:53<andythenorth>Terkhen: I just pushed the 'Disponsible en' translation
06:53<andythenorth>you might need to pull and merge :O
06:53<andythenorth>I decided with my 1 year of Spanish that it was 'good enough'
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06:53<@Terkhen>"Disponible en" :P
06:56<@Terkhen>andythenorth: <-- looks like a lot of work and I won't be able to translate it right now, just push and I'll translate it for the next release
06:57<@Terkhen>next time, please tell me about translation with a few more time, we also got stuck with an uncomplete spanish translation with the last long-term stable of FIRS :P
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07:07<ZxBiohazardZx>i seriously lack extra zooming out :(
07:07<ZxBiohazardZx>would it be hard to add extra zooming out (aka would it be similar as eg extra zooming in )
07:08<@Alberth>it's the other direction, so the problem is completely different
07:08<@Alberth>ie you have to decide which pixels to hide instead of creating non-existent ones
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07:09<ZxBiohazardZx>isnt zooming out less of an issue on pcs
07:09<ZxBiohazardZx>i mean zooming in means you have to add non-existing pixels
07:09<ZxBiohazardZx>aka interpolate graphic info you dont have
07:10<ZxBiohazardZx>while for zooming out, you hide data you dont use
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07:14<@Alberth>but you have to make a choice, you cannot display a road, an industry and a house at one pixel
07:14<Eddi|zuHause>and how do you know which data is suitible for "not using"?
07:15<ZxBiohazardZx>we have/had 3? zoom levels before
07:15<ZxBiohazardZx>similar way you do it there can be used
07:15<ZxBiohazardZx>or was the max-zoomed out the "default" and do we only interpolate after that?
07:15<Eddi|zuHause>ZxBiohazardZx: you might be interested in
07:16<ZxBiohazardZx>Eddi yeah partially what i want, but rather then map i want the actual zoom out (as i can have the map on my screen, its big enough
07:16<ZxBiohazardZx>if only i could have 2-monitor support :P
07:16<ZxBiohazardZx>then id put map on 2nd monitor hahahaha
07:16<ZxBiohazardZx>(evil stare)
07:18<Eddi|zuHause>ZxBiohazardZx: so you'd rather have unintelligible pixel salad?
07:20<planetmaker>ZxBiohazardZx, how does it fail to play OpenTTD on a dual screen computer?
07:21<planetmaker>Use a big stretch window and it all works nicely. And you still have your IRC window open ;-)
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07:21<@Alberth>planetmaker: for me, the second monitor is one room further, and not connected to my PC :)
07:22<planetmaker>haha :-)
07:22<planetmaker>I'd change that though, if I were you (unless it's connected to yet another machine)
07:22<@Alberth>oh, and I have a 3rd one 400km away :)
07:22<@Alberth>not connected to anything :)
07:25<ZxBiohazardZx>planetmaker that only works if you have 2 equal sized monitors;)
07:25<ZxBiohazardZx>i forgot what it was
07:26<planetmaker>It can also work for differently-sized ones. But it's less ideal
07:26<ZxBiohazardZx>mainly it should make the map pop in a new window
07:26<ZxBiohazardZx>then i can drag it :P
07:26<ZxBiohazardZx>but i understand that thats not cool :)
07:28<ZxBiohazardZx>for ALOT of reasons :P
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07:32<ZxBiohazardZx>also for extra zoom out you can just use most dominant pixel color? out of the sample space of 8 you pick a weighted 2x direct neighboors, and 1x diagneighboors to determine new color of the pixel?
07:32<andythenorth>right FIRS tagging time then
07:33*andythenorth wonders if andythenorth's English makes sense to non-native English speakers :P
07:34<ZxBiohazardZx><-- non-native (dutch) and its ok
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07:54<@Alberth>in 8bpp there are no 'new color's :)
07:57<frosch123>we have magic pink
07:58<frosch123>so around 16 free color slots which we could offer to newgrfs via grf resource management
08:07<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: but only in DOS paletted grfs
08:08<frosch123>well, and the grf would not know in advance which color slots are available, and thus would have the sprites in all possible combinations of available slots :p
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08:15<Eddi|zuHause>what was the question anyway?
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08:19<Hexxeh>If I start the game without the graphics files installed, should I expect to see a segfault?
08:19<Hexxeh>I've just compiled the game from source, but it segfaults instantly on launch
08:20<@Alberth>sounds like a good possibility to me
08:21<@Alberth>you could try running it from the console, probably it outputs some text
08:22<Hexxeh>yeah, got a trace, i'll pastebin it
08:22<@Alberth>if you add -d 9 you get more debugging output
08:23<Hexxeh>ah, handy
08:23<@Alberth>but in short, you are not going to run the program without the files
08:23<Hexxeh>last message in the debug log is dbg: [driver] SDL: using mode 640x480x8
08:23<@Alberth>as it contains way more than just graphics
08:25<Hexxeh>added the graphics files, same deal
08:25<@Alberth>in particular, it also contains the font needed to display an error :p
08:25<Hexxeh>i should note, i'm trying to run this without X
08:26<Hexxeh>is that supported, or is that something i'm going to have to make work?
08:26<@Alberth>then SDL is not good :)
08:26<@Alberth>I think there is a 'dedicated' option in the ./configure
08:26<@Alberth>which disables video stuff
08:26<Hexxeh>oh no, i mean still as a graphical client, not just a dedicated, just without X
08:27<Hexxeh>fullscreen, just using the framebuffer
08:28<Hexxeh>kinda got it working
08:28<Hexxeh>colours are screwed up
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08:28<@Alberth>isn't that somewhat complicated vs SDL + full-screen toggle?
08:29<@Alberth>(never tried that, but it should work)
08:29<Hexxeh>i'm on a platform where X is really slow
08:30<NGC3982>rereout or re-reout?
08:30<@Alberth>both look wrong :)
08:31<@Alberth>you mean re-routing?
08:32<Hexxeh>works perfectly now, just colours are super strange
08:32<Hexxeh>water looks like brown-orange, openttd text is blue
08:33<@Alberth>wrong palette :)
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08:33<Hexxeh>where's that selected?
08:34<@Alberth>don't know, unfortunately. I'd suspect in the video drivers
08:35<Hexxeh>ahh, it was resolution related
08:35<Hexxeh>i've set it to the correct resolution, and now the colours look perfect
08:35<Hexxeh>it's just super slow, heh. optimisation time!
08:38<FLHerne>Hexxeh: What are you running it on?
08:39<Hexxeh>Fruit-named ARM development board that's in huge demand at the moment...
08:40<FLHerne>:P What's it like in real life? I thought about getting one...
08:40<Hexxeh>pretty awesome
08:43<FLHerne>I'll probably get one in a month or so then, when they've filled the order backlog :D
08:43<FLHerne>If OTTD'll run on my Powerbooks, it'll run on a Pi :P
08:43<Hexxeh>well i'm trying it at 1920x1080, and it's kinda jerky
08:44<__ln__>would this be one of the cases when an OpenGL video output for OpenGL would help?
08:45<Hexxeh>it doesn't have OpenGL support, only OpenGLES
08:45<__ln__>i see
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08:47<Hexxeh>there's a strange flicker when moving the map
08:47<Hexxeh>pretty playable though
08:58<Hexxeh>aha, works much better at 1280x720
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09:03<Hexxeh>OpenTTD on Pi!
09:18<Rubidium>OpenTTD on Pie! ;)
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09:19<drac_boy>when could openttd run on anything that has or emulates a pentium with dos?
09:19<drac_boy>just being a bit silly I know but still :-p
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09:20<Rubidium>openttd works in dosbox (without network though)
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11:00<andythenorth>can anyone build FIRS 0.7.4 for me?
11:01<supermop>out of legos?
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11:04<andythenorth>out of bundle server :P
11:04<andythenorth>so I can't release because I don't know the build is valid
11:05<Hexxeh>before i start working on this, has anybody already gotten audio for openttd running via openmax il?
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11:15<Hexxeh>hmm, when adding a sound driver, what does the driver actually get passed in terms of audio data?
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11:16<@Alberth>andythenorth: ?
11:17<andythenorth>Alberth: is that for the 0.7.4 tag?
11:17<@Alberth>it's tip
11:19<Hexxeh>does MxMixSamples give me PCM data?
11:20<@Alberth>andythenorth: so it has the tag, and the 'enable' thingie as well.
11:21<andythenorth>yup, pm is looking at it (I think) :)
11:21<andythenorth>for 0.7.4, grfid -m gives me af1a3c23f72c553d6831703428369c8c
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11:30<@Alberth>my number is different, probably due to using tip. Trying a rebuild with 0.7.4
11:31<@Alberth>af1a3c23f72c553d6831703428369c8c looks the same :p
11:32<@Alberth>it also understands it has 0.7.4, apparently. Nice!
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11:41<andythenorth>Alberth: thanks :)
11:42<andythenorth>now on banaas
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11:43<Hexxeh>added openmax_s.h and openmax_s.cpp with a basic version of an audio driver for openmax, where in ttd's build system do i need to tell it these files exist?
11:45<Hexxeh>that the only place?
11:46<andythenorth>it's amusing that bananas downloads happen so quickly
11:46*andythenorth many active players do we have?
11:47<Hexxeh>as a side note, doing a full recompile on a 700mhz arm is painful...
11:47<supermop>andythenorth: far more than visit forums or irc
11:47<@Alberth>Hexxeh: try a virtual powerpc :p
11:47<Hexxeh>Alberth: why not a real PPC? :P
11:47<andythenorth>we should put a config option in, defaults to off: ping us a bit when you play a game
11:48<andythenorth>just call it 'we like stat porn and won't abuse your data'
11:48<@Alberth>that gives a good estimate of the number of really stupid users :p
11:48-!-Dr_Tan is now known as Nat_aS
11:51<supermop>Alberth: that could still be useful to know
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11:55<planetmaker>Alberth: it should and it must. Or the md5sum would differ ;-)
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12:03<FLHerne>Hexxeh: Try compiling on a 133MHz PPC. Takes a few hours :P
12:03<Hexxeh>took about two on a raspberry pi
12:04<__ln__>so setting up a distcc cluster of raspberries could be useful
12:04<Hexxeh>or just cross-compiling
12:04<FLHerne>About 5 on my 1400 :D
12:04<__ln__>where's the fun in cross-compiling
12:04<FLHerne>Runs out of RAM, too...
12:05<Hexxeh>when i pass --with-sdl, what does it actually need to be pointed to?
12:07<CIA-1>OpenTTD: frosch * r24185 /trunk/src/industry_cmd.cpp: -Codechange: Deduplicate some only partly deduplicated code.
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12:22<andythenorth>frosch123: any ideas about industry terraforming hints?
12:22<andythenorth>currently flat terraforming won't be used if shape check cb is used
12:23<frosch123>of course
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12:23<frosch123>what kind of question is that?
12:24<andythenorth>so the case that is currently a problem is large flat industries
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12:24<frosch123>"this industry is build on sloped land" -> if we level the land, construction will probably fail
12:25<andythenorth>shape check is used for a wide range of things, not just slope check
12:25<andythenorth>if I'm reading code correctly, it's the only way to check tile class (might be wrong about that)
12:25<frosch123>what are you using it for?
12:25<frosch123>you can also use cb28 to check tiles
12:26<andythenorth>unsigned only
12:26<andythenorth>it's like playing a RPG with only 'go north' available :P
12:27<andythenorth>cases include:
12:27<andythenorth>- desert / snow checks
12:27<andythenorth>- spacing industries apart by n tiles
12:28<andythenorth>I don't mind if the answer is 'make your industries smaller'
12:29<andythenorth>but if that's the case, I should get on with that work ;)
12:31<frosch123>well, we are wondering for years how industries could provide shapes for terraforming
12:31<andythenorth>that's why I asked :)
12:32<andythenorth>it was discussed again recently, you were away ;)
12:32<frosch123>should i consider me lucky about that? :p
12:32<andythenorth>[short discussion]
12:32<andythenorth>extending the industry layout with an extra byte or so for land shape flag? <- viable?
12:34<andythenorth>[per tile]
12:34<frosch123>he, that's all? i think we had a more detailed idea before :p
12:35<andythenorth>how sophisticated does it need to be?
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12:43<frosch123>andythenorth: there is a critical issue with the new firs
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12:44<CIA-1>OpenTTD: frosch * r24186 /trunk/src/ (3 files in 2 dirs): -Feature: [NewGRF] Callback to set industry production level on construction. (andythenorth)
12:44<frosch123>it's totally out of date
12:44<andythenorth>well I just started 0.7.5
12:44<andythenorth>literally just now
12:44<andythenorth>about the time you highlighted me :P
12:45<andythenorth>my name is on 3 commits now
12:49<andythenorth>frosch123: the nml patch?
12:50<andythenorth>I can commit that...
12:50<andythenorth>or did you already?
12:50<frosch123>while i could commit it, i am no developer of nml
12:50<andythenorth>I think it's safe
12:50<andythenorth>I'll do it
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12:58<Hexxeh>is there any easy way to test SFX?
12:59<frosch123>start a train?
12:59<frosch123>well, the title game should also produce some noise
13:00<Hexxeh>ah, thought the title screen stuff was music rather than sfx, that's okay
13:00<ZxBiohazardZx>and it errors if you dont have it
13:00<andythenorth>newgrf wiki needs updated now
13:01<andythenorth>for nml at least
13:02*andythenorth wonders if nml should be checking for valid results or not
13:02*Zuu thinks about something to do
13:03<frosch123>btw. i added random bits to var 18
13:05<frosch123>i updated the nfo specs, who does the nml specs?
13:07<Mazur>The National Marihuana Laboratory.
13:07<andythenorth>frosch123: I'm doing nml specs
13:07<andythenorth>is it production level, or production multiplier?
13:07<andythenorth>terminology here always baffles me :P
13:07<andythenorth>production rate?
13:10<frosch123>not production rate
13:10<frosch123>production level or multiplier is kind of the same
13:10<andythenorth>newgrf wiki says production rate ;)
13:11<frosch123>yeah, appreantly the specs use different terms than ottd source :)
13:11<andythenorth>that's the puzzle :)
13:11<andythenorth>one day I should fix the wiki :P
13:11<frosch123>var 93 says production level
13:11<frosch123>so, i think the majority decides for "production level" :)
13:12<andythenorth>src agrees
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13:15<andythenorth>planetmaker: is build_prod_change acceptably documented here?
13:16<frosch123>wrt. initialising persistent storage: the colour cb might be better in the general case, since it does not necessarily disable smooth economy
13:17<frosch123>though argueably an industry is unlikely to use persistent storage if it has no custom production mechanics
13:18<andythenorth>:m I never thought of using the colour cb :o
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13:41<@Alberth>ssshhh before everybody uses it :p
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14:03*andythenorth ponders a faster laptop
14:11<andythenorth>I can get 2.8Ghz i7 instead of 2.7Ghz i7 :P
14:11<andythenorth>will FIRS build faster with that?
14:19<Zuu>he, I already got used to a 3.4 GHz i7 and wish for faster compile speed :-)
14:20<Zuu>Though, in that respect, re-writing the code to eliminate inter-dependencies will probably have big impact on compile speed.
14:20-!-Eddi|zuHause2 is now known as Eddi|zuHause
14:20<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: if one second helps you :)
14:21<andythenorth>that's 15s per hour :P
14:21<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: that's one of those cases where improving the algorithm is waaaaay more effective
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14:22<andythenorth>I don't know how :)
14:22<andythenorth>I *do* have a credit card :P
14:22<andythenorth>can the credit card buy a faster FIRS?
14:22*Alberth ponders an easy way to unduplicate NumericLiteral instances in NML
14:24*andythenorth ponders just having nml use the IDs for action 2s and vehicles etc,
14:24<andythenorth>like a proper newgrf language :P
14:24<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: a constant-table?
14:25<@Alberth>and a factory function or object, I guess
14:25<andythenorth>already the optional item ID is used for FIRS and BANDIT
14:25<andythenorth>is it figuring out the identifiers that's currently slow?
14:25<@Alberth>iirc expression handling is slow
14:26<@Alberth>where reducing to numeric constants *may* be big
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14:40<supermop>hi planetmaker; I uploaded a picture of what I was thinking of re: river coasts
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15:07<ZxBiohazardZx>is it me or do i get ALOT of statues & fountains on opengfx +openttd 1.2.0 (arctic 1950 date)
15:10-!-supermop [] has quit [Quit: supermop]
15:12<@Alberth>probably not, but it is not the fault of opengfx, I think
15:12<ZxBiohazardZx>hitting expand alot in a city
15:12<ZxBiohazardZx>nuked down 2x8 square block
15:12<ZxBiohazardZx>and i got 2x8 statues & fountains haha
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15:19<@Alberth>Lol, caching numericconstant saves 1 second on firs :p
15:21<ZxBiohazardZx>if a town is not allowed to build roads, does the road-layout affect town growth while clicking expand button on a pre-build (non rectangle) roadset for the town?
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15:26<frosch123>isn't the "disallow towns to build roads" setting disabled in scenario editor?
15:27<ZxBiohazardZx>advance settings -> disable it
15:27<ZxBiohazardZx>its beast when making your own cities
15:27<ZxBiohazardZx>you dont have to worry about removing roads
15:27<andythenorth>@calc 5 * 100
15:27<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: 500
15:27<andythenorth>could have done that myself :P
15:28<andythenorth>@calc 500/60
15:28<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: 8.33333333333
15:28<ZxBiohazardZx>fail omg
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15:28<andythenorth>Alberth: I'd still get ^ that much life back for every 100 commits
15:28<ZxBiohazardZx>@calc sqrt(29*PI / 8)
15:28<@DorpsGek>ZxBiohazardZx: 3.37465159228
15:28<ZxBiohazardZx>fail answer is wrong
15:29<ZxBiohazardZx>@calc PI
15:29<@DorpsGek>ZxBiohazardZx: 3.14159265359
15:29<ZxBiohazardZx>actually no lol
15:29<ZxBiohazardZx>my bad
15:36<@Alberth>it misses a few digits
15:43<ZxBiohazardZx>oh well
15:43<ZxBiohazardZx>so back to the town growing question
15:44<ZxBiohazardZx>does it matter what road layout you chose if you pre-build a roadnet for the city to grow on
15:44<ZxBiohazardZx>if i can save myself 50 expand clicks then i will :P
15:45<@Alberth>I have no idea, I just let towns grow by themself, with whatever roadnet they happen to have
15:46<ZxBiohazardZx>so im not feeding it anything except clicking the expand button :P
15:47<ZxBiohazardZx>literally 25-50% of the city is statue/fountains
15:47<ZxBiohazardZx>not funny anymore
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15:54<ZxBiohazardZx>sup drac
15:57<drac_boy>hi ZxBiohazardZx where you been for a long lockdown due to elevated readings? :-P heh
15:57<drac_boy>hi telanus1
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16:19<@Alberth>good night all
16:20<drac_boy>bye Alberth
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16:23<telanus1>Night Alllllll
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17:02<andythenorth>randomised production at game start \o/
17:03<Zuu>Isn't it that now by default?
17:04<andythenorth>frosch123: give the player a 'hide' tool in buy menu
17:04<andythenorth>like an invisible pen :)
17:05<andythenorth>and a toggle to show all invisible
17:06<andythenorth>Zuu: default industries randomise at game start, newgrf industries (generally) do not
17:06<andythenorth>now they can :)
17:08-!-supermop [] has quit [Quit: supermop]
17:08<Zuu>I tend to play with the default industries to have something that dosen't need me to spend soo much time finding connections to build. That said FIRS do provide some nice games every now and then.
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17:17<V453000>hi, what setting could possibly make farms have the same production of livestock:grain in numbers?
17:17<V453000>they seem to keep the same numbers all the time
17:18<V453000>and I cant seem to find out which setting did that
17:18<Zuu>Never herd about a setting like that
17:19<V453000>me neither
17:19<Zuu>Maybe there is a NewGRF solution to it?
17:19<V453000>I dont think it is
17:19<V453000>some guys on a server have such problem, no clue how they did that
17:19<V453000>they even say that their industries started with high productions and they are unable to grow above 1080
17:19<V453000>smooth economy on :z
17:20<V453000>Steady economy ... the difficulty setting
17:23<andythenorth>good night
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17:24<frosch123>V453000: either smooth economy is off, or they are using a newgrf
17:25<V453000>strange, some of the newgrfs must be weird then
17:25<frosch123>"steady economy" is about recessions
17:25<V453000>I know :z
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17:36<Rhamphoryncus>V453000: FIRS can definitely produce that behaviour
17:36<V453000>they dont use an industry newgrf of course
17:36<Rhamphoryncus>of course
17:37<V453000>or at least not an obvious industry newgrf ... dont know if hungarian or long vehicles do something industries but I doubt they do
17:37<Rhamphoryncus>well.. nope, pretty sure what you describe is impossible :)
17:38<V453000>I would normally say the same until I saw it
17:43<Nat_aS>The quad track layout in my urban coridoor area is already overstressed, how do I add more trains? I need a local intercity express to augment my network wide high speed rail
17:45<ZxBiohazardZx>ohi Nat_As
17:45<ZxBiohazardZx>i got the network game working :P
17:45<Nat_aS>Right now it has my high speed PAX, high speed diamond/maill, and semi-high speed freight all on the same network, it works fine farther away from the cities, but the part that's quad track can't add another train without jamming
17:45<ZxBiohazardZx>check for cargodist multiplayer to see if it works :P
17:45<Nat_aS>I want to add an electric local PAX line
17:46<Nat_aS>allright, maybe you can help me
17:46<ZxBiohazardZx>check if multiplayer works now :P
17:46<ZxBiohazardZx>im hostin:P
17:46<Nat_aS>allright, online
17:47<Nat_aS>A GREEN DOT!
17:47<ZxBiohazardZx>connecting client
17:47<ZxBiohazardZx>i fixed my routers :P
17:47<Nat_aS>now wanna try mine?
17:47<ZxBiohazardZx>ofc :P
17:47<Nat_aS>how do I chat?
17:48<ZxBiohazardZx>to late i just closed it
17:48<ZxBiohazardZx>try hosting a game:P
17:48<Nat_aS>server is HabanaRail password is pete
17:48<drac_boy>ZxBiohazardZx nice
17:48<drac_boy>btw is this still using chrill's build?
17:48<ZxBiohazardZx>drac_boy muhaha
17:48<ZxBiohazardZx>nah just helping out Nat_aS on a cd build
17:49<ZxBiohazardZx>i might host a chrill game later
17:49<ZxBiohazardZx>but not now :P
17:49<drac_boy>oh ok, just had to ask :P
17:49<ZxBiohazardZx>not showing Nat_aS
17:49<ZxBiohazardZx>but i can help 1 sec
17:49<ZxBiohazardZx>get this for me
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17:49<drac_boy>still not finished my for-mp scenario yet btw .. just been many other things going on .. or bad timing to be on irc for more than one hour .. etc
17:49<Nat_aS>the server is HabanaRail not Nat_as
17:49<ZxBiohazardZx>no green dots;)
17:49<drac_boy>but guess one day I'll eventually finally get it hosted
17:49<Nat_aS>oh noes
17:49<ZxBiohazardZx>just wait
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17:50<ZxBiohazardZx>eeehm no
17:50<ZxBiohazardZx>ow wait
17:50<ZxBiohazardZx>you dont even need full
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17:50<ZxBiohazardZx>get that last link's file :P
17:50<Nat_aS>what is this?
17:51<ZxBiohazardZx>it allows me to see your monitor :P
17:51<Nat_aS>and it does?
17:51<drac_boy>why not use something more generic like eg tigervnc which uses the ubious vnc protocols? :P
17:51<ZxBiohazardZx>drac_boy cause i like the fancy gui?
17:51<ZxBiohazardZx>program generates a hash & security code
17:51<ZxBiohazardZx>no code = no acces
17:51<drac_boy>ZxBiohazardZx I prefer to use anything that works on vnc connection .. theres no point in breaking things with incompactibility
17:51<drac_boy>but then
17:52<ZxBiohazardZx>and code changes on program closing
17:52<ZxBiohazardZx>drac_boy meh
17:52<ZxBiohazardZx>Nat_aS just dl it and start it :P (the last link only, the other 2 where not correct ones)
17:52<Nat_aS>okay, transfered it to my windows box
17:52<Nat_aS>i dual wield laptops
17:52<Nat_aS>because my ubuntu machine has been dieing for a year now
17:53<Nat_aS>but it's pretty much a zombie at this point
17:53<Nat_aS>I don't want to throw it away
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17:53<Nat_aS>and it's nice multitasking with two machines
17:53<Nat_aS>two monitors is dumb, two computers however is awesome
17:53<ZxBiohazardZx>nah 2 monitors is nice
17:53<Nat_aS>if only there was a faster way to share data between them
17:53<Nat_aS>like copy-pastes, and files
17:53<ZxBiohazardZx>faster then what?
17:54<Nat_aS>without having to wait for them to sync to cloud services
17:54<ZxBiohazardZx>your lan port cant handle shit?
17:54<Nat_aS>I used Tomboy notes and dropbox, but that's slow
17:54<Nat_aS>and I don't know how to into lan
17:54<Nat_aS>esp between two OSes
17:54<ZxBiohazardZx>yeah windows is bitchy on the lan environments
17:54<drac_boy>Nat_aS just asking but what os on both sides?
17:54<Nat_aS>ubuntu and win7
17:56<drac_boy>hm .. 7 ... thats worser than xp .. oh well.. only alternative I could think of telling you is to set up a small ftp server on the ubuntu side and then find its real ip address .. and on the 7 side .. hopefully typing the ip into web browser would get a connection
17:56<drac_boy>if it was not window 7 it would had been much easier, sorry :)
17:59<drac_boy>ZxBiohazardZx you tell me...I find that each newer things from ms are just more bloated and loses-features at same time .. its a weird cycle indeed :-s
17:59<drac_boy>oh well
17:59<ZxBiohazardZx>windows 7 is better (by far) then xp
17:59<ZxBiohazardZx>windows has up and down cycle
18:00<ZxBiohazardZx>its good its crap its good, its crap
18:00<ZxBiohazardZx>so for you --> XP = good, Vista = Crap, Windows 7 = Good, Windows8 = Crap
18:00<ZxBiohazardZx>wait for Windows 9 or whatever they name it
18:00<Nat_aS>windows 7 is the shinyness of vista with the footprint and (most of) the compatibility of XP
18:00<Nat_aS>it's the best windows in years.
18:01<drac_boy>actually no.. I've found 7 to be too problematic for stupid simple things (neverminding ram but thats another topic) .. plus it can't even connect to the same networks for odd reasons
18:01<drac_boy>worst thing tho is its still a bit over $300cad to buy from the stores ... why hasn't ms realized hardware aren't as costly anymore
18:01<ZxBiohazardZx>stupid TV wont connect: wrong ID (client not active, blocked by firewall)
18:01<drac_boy>heh :)
18:01<ZxBiohazardZx>drac_boy OEM its not
18:02<ZxBiohazardZx>OEM Win7 64 bit is i think 99?
18:02<drac_boy>ZxBiohazardZx how are you supposed to buy oem without breaking the license from first day?
18:02<ZxBiohazardZx>drac_boy license?
18:02<ZxBiohazardZx>i actually got mine OEM
18:02<ZxBiohazardZx>as i got myself a PC with it :P
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18:03<Nat_aS>i just buy laptops, planned obsolescence keeps me from having to pay for OSes
18:03<ZxBiohazardZx>85 euros for OEM win7
18:03<drac_boy>Nat_aS its not just re paying but re getting support at all
18:03<Nat_aS>I buy a new laptop with the latest windows every 4 years, and then install ubuntu on the old one.
18:03<ZxBiohazardZx>so the normal would be 126 euro if im not mistaken
18:03<Nat_aS>that way I always have two functioning laptops.
18:04<Nat_aS>only problem is the unix one is now without waranty and will be almost impossible to repair for a reasonable cost.
18:04*drac_boy is kinda working toward two laptops too..but in a bit different manner of useage tho
18:05<Nat_aS>for instance my ubuntu machine's arrow keys do not work
18:05<Mazur>Wash hte keyboard out.
18:06*ZxBiohazardZx pokes Nat_aS in private channel
18:06<Mazur>Is it possible to let the text input be handled by the Xwindow system on Linux? Some of my UTF8 Compose combinations do not work in OpenTTD.
18:07<Mazur>Or they do.
18:08<Mazur>Nope, don't.
18:08<Mazur>⁰ for instance, works everywhre but there.
18:08<Mazur>In openTTD I get ?
18:09<Zuu>Nat_aS: Good instance of when the vim mode of zsh/bash is useful :-)
18:11<Zuu>Mazur: Do you have a font active in OpenTTD that support the characters that you type?
18:11<Nat_aS>Mazur, it's a laptop, that would kill it
18:11<Nat_aS>I'm lucky only the arrow keys were damaged
18:11<Nat_aS>I hard reset it quickly and let it dry out
18:11<Nat_aS>for a while I thought the keyboard would be dead, it took a while for the keys to stop being scrambled
18:11<Nat_aS>now only the arrow keys are perminantly dead
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18:12<Zuu>I guess you use it mostly docked anyways, so the internal keyboard is not so important.
18:12<Mazur>Pop the caps off and clean underneath with a moist cloth.
18:13<Mazur>It's times like these we remember the ZX-spectrum wistfully.
18:14<Zuu>Heh, I got hard bread below the keys on a flat keyboard once that made it kind of hard to type on :-)
18:19*drac_boy could like a thinkpad R61 or something alike tho when I think about it
18:22<drac_boy>not sure if its just me or its sometimes hard to find the specs on other series of laptops other than just the thinkpads
18:22<drac_boy>but oh well..we'll see one day
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19:19<Nat_aS>late but my ubuntu machine has to stay docked
19:19<Nat_aS>it's batteries are dead and it's power cable will not supply power if kinked wrong
19:20<Nat_aS>it will remain on my desk till it dies
19:20<Mazur>use another power cable.
19:20<Mazur>I got about 20 here.
19:20<Nat_aS>that would be spending money on a laptop that's pretty much dead
19:21<Nat_aS>I could justufy getting a USB keyboard though
19:21<Nat_aS>it would come in handy if I ever owned a desktop
19:21<Mazur>Yes, and a second USB mouse.
19:21<Nat_aS>but there is no room on my desk, I have two laptops, junk, and a waccom tablet
19:21<Nat_aS>I don't trust wireless perepherals.
19:21<Nat_aS>the batteries might die
19:22<Nat_aS>sucks because it can be hard to find optical mice that aren't wireless
19:22<Nat_aS>and the worst part is, they all require USB dongles
19:22<Mazur>I have a marvellous USB-WIFI mouse fro Logitech, and I have a 23/7 battery charger/caretaker.
19:22<Mazur>24/7, even.
19:22<Nat_aS>so despite being wireless, they still take up a USB slot.
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19:22<Mazur>Always loaded reloadeables,
19:23<Nat_aS>i don't think I have AAs or AAAs anymore
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19:23<Mazur>Yes, but no more spaghetti.
19:23<Nat_aS>just internal LHiion
19:23<Nat_aS>for my phone and portable devices
19:23<Nat_aS>charged every night
19:23<Nat_aS>except my kindle which I can just leave hanginging around
19:23<Mazur>I espcecially bought reloadable AAAs and AAs, for my wallclocks, remotes, labelmaker and cameras.
19:25<Nat_aS>i'll trust wireless perepherals when we have induction power desks
19:25<Nat_aS>that will be fun
19:25<Mazur>Sure, certainly if they induc hte hell pout of your gonads
19:25<Nat_aS>our grandchildren wont understand what we went though with cables and batteries.
19:25<Mazur>If you ever have any.
19:27*drac_boy prefers hard batteries rather than some unreplaceable/unrepairable weird pad thank you :P
19:27<drac_boy>but heh dunno about other people
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---Logclosed Sun Apr 29 00:00:49 2012