Back to Home / #openttd / 2012 / 05 / Prev Day | Next Day
#openttd IRC Logs for 2012-05-01

---Logopened Tue May 01 00:00:52 2012
00:04-!-kkb110_ [~kkb110@NYUFGA-WLESSAUTHCLIENTS-04.NATPOOL.NYU.EDU] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
00:23-!-kkb110_ [] has joined #openttd
00:45-!-supermop [] has quit [Quit: supermop]
00:52-!-Rhamphoryncus [] has quit [Quit: Rhamphoryncus]
00:56-!-Eddi|zuHause [] has quit []
00:56-!-Eddi|zuHause [] has joined #openttd
00:56-!-Djohaal [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
01:15-!-Ryton [] has joined #openttd
01:26-!-Keyboard_Warrior [~holyduck@] has joined #openttd
01:30-!-Ryton [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
01:33-!-theholyduck [~holyduck@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
01:37-!-Prof_Frink [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
01:45-!-Mazur [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
02:01-!-magosi [] has left #openttd []
02:22-!-magosi [] has joined #openttd
02:23-!-magosi [] has left #openttd []
03:05-!-andythenorth [] has joined #openttd
03:05<andythenorth>and goodbye
03:05*andythenorth goes to toil honestly at the coalface of python, and mostly jquery
03:05-!-andythenorth [] has left #openttd []
03:15-!-th_gergo [] has joined #openttd
03:18-!-namad7 [] has joined #openttd
03:20-!-namad7 [] has quit []
03:23-!-namad8 [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
03:26<Eddi|zuHause>@calc 322+7*92
03:26<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: 966
03:28-!-namad7 [] has joined #openttd
03:29-!-fonsinchen [] has joined #openttd
03:29<Eddi|zuHause>@calc 1901-7*92
03:29<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: 1257
03:32-!-frosch123 [] has joined #openttd
03:46-!-Devroush [] has joined #openttd
03:47-!-Wolf01 [~wolf01@] has joined #openttd
03:49-!-Volley [] has joined #openttd
03:49-!-fonsinchen [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
03:57-!-TWerkhoven [] has joined #openttd
03:59<@Terkhen>good morning
04:06-!-telanus [~Barney_Er@] has joined #openttd
04:08-!-sla_ro|master [~slaco@] has joined #openttd
04:11-!-julien0 [] has joined #openttd
04:12<julien0>Hi, I've just started hacking around NoGo and I have some questions
04:12-!-mahmoud [] has joined #openttd
04:13<@Terkhen>hi julien0
04:13<@Terkhen>Don't ask to ask, just ask :)
04:14<julien0>The goal is to use it as an assistant (watch if lines are ok, add/remove vehicles depending on station loading, ...)
04:15<julien0>to communicate with script, I've added an API to add commands to interactive console
04:15<julien0>so far it seem to work, I will make a patch soon
04:16<julien0>but I have seen that most standard Squirrel functions are not available (getroottable, newthread, regexp, ...) why ?
04:17-!-DDR [] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out]
04:17<julien0>I understand that I/O functions can cause security problems, but most of the rest of API seem safe
04:17-!-Keyboard_Warrior [~holyduck@] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
04:17<__ln__>first very well written english, but then a questionmark preceded by space. not completely unexpected though.
04:18<julien0>French typographic rules :)
04:18<Eddi|zuHause>julien0: most internal functions have been disabled for performance reasons. you need a way to count the "operations" a script is doing, to prevent it from using too much CPU
04:19<__ln__>julien0: yeah, i know, but they don't apply to english. :)
04:19<Eddi|zuHause>julien0: people have been making openttd hang by a simple sort() call
04:21<julien0>ok, I've not thought abou that one
04:24<@Terkhen>if you think that something is missing from the API, you can always file a feature request
04:24-!-KritiK [] has joined #openttd
04:25<@Terkhen>IIRC we already had some inclusions from such suggestions
04:25<@Terkhen>of course, it is a lot better if the suggestion comes as a patch :P
04:26<julien0>sure, I think that coroutine could allow some cool things, and I don't think that it is CPU intensive.
04:27<@Terkhen>OpenTTD is not very thread friendly
04:28<@Terkhen>I don't know how OpenTTD handles Squirrel execution (scripts are not my forte) but probably it would lead to desyncs
04:28<julien0>yes but coroutines are not parallel threads, it's just multiple stacks of execution
04:29<@Terkhen>as long as they don't introduce a non-deterministic order of execution, they should be okay
04:29<julien0>there is only one control flow, and couroutines tranfer control with resume/yield
04:29<Eddi|zuHause>coroutine is what "yield" is in python?
04:30<julien0>Eddi|zuHause: more or less. IIRC the python yield is a "generator", coroutines are a bit more powerful
04:31-!-Progman [] has joined #openttd
04:37-!-|Jeroen| [] has joined #openttd
04:37<SpComb>julien0: python's generators support .send(...)
04:37<SpComb>julien0: i.e. `foo = yield bar`
04:37<SpComb>so they're kinda like coroutines
04:38<SpComb>in a limited sense, in that you can hack them to do some similar things :)
04:39<SpComb>you just have to keep the control flow explicit, vs with coroutines any innocent-looking line of code could resume/yield
04:39<SpComb>giving you the same issues with mutable shared state that you have with threading..
04:40<julien0>SpComb: ok, I didn't used Python generators so munch, I'm more used to Lua coroutines (I think that Squirrel ones are similar)
04:40<SpComb>python has real coroutines as well, in the form of stackless/greenlets
04:41<SpComb>but uh, I guess this is off-topic, Python wouldn't really be the right choice for embedding into OpenTTD anyways
04:41<julien0>Yes, with couroutines you are only sure that two concurrent threads will not write the same data at same time but a hidden yield can be harmful
04:43-!-tokai|noir [] has joined #openttd
04:43-!-mode/#openttd [+v tokai|noir] by ChanServ
04:48-!-tokai|mdlx [] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out]
05:02-!-Ryton [~Ryton@] has joined #openttd
05:06-!-TWerkhoven [] has quit [Quit: He who can look into the future, has a brighter future to look into]
05:13<NGC3982>i cant seem to get the gnome font right.
05:13<NGC3982>when i start changing it, it turns into poop.
05:16-!-mal2 [] has joined #openttd
05:18-!-valhallasw [] has joined #openttd
05:23-!-Progman [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
05:31-!-Zuu [] has joined #openttd
05:35-!-cypher [] has joined #openttd
05:37-!-TWerkhoven [] has joined #openttd
05:40-!-fonsinchen [] has joined #openttd
06:12-!-fonsinchen [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
06:25-!-Ryton [~Ryton@] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
06:36-!-Elukka [] has joined #openttd
06:41-!-ZxBiohazardZx [] has joined #openttd
06:46-!-TGYoshi [~TGYoshi@] has joined #openttd
06:46-!-Ryton [~Ryton@] has joined #openttd
06:52-!-roadt [~roadt@] has joined #openttd
06:53-!-pugi [] has joined #openttd
07:07-!-roadt [~roadt@] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out]
07:14-!-cypher [] has quit [Quit: Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier.]
07:18-!-Elukka [] has quit []
07:23-!-oskari89 [] has joined #openttd
07:31-!-Freudian [] has joined #openttd
07:36-!-guru3 [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
07:42-!-Elukka [] has joined #openttd
07:44-!-guru3 [] has joined #openttd
07:54-!-|Jeroen| [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
07:57-!-Mark [] has joined #openttd
08:09-!-Ryton [~Ryton@] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
08:09-!-Elukka [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
08:09-!-Elukka [] has joined #openttd
08:16-!-guru3 [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
08:47<NGC3982>what has happend here?
08:47<NGC3982>no activity?
08:47<NGC3982>for god sake, wake up you swabs!
08:47*MNIM thwacks NGC3982 on the head
08:48<MNIM>don't wake the dogs
08:49-!-mal2 [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
08:52<Zuu>Yea, very quiet today.
08:53<Zuu>I don't know if more countries have holliday today.
08:54<NGC3982>most of europe celebrate 'may day'
08:54<Zuu>According to wikipedia 80 countries have it as national holiday.
08:55<NGC3982>oh, 80?
08:55<NGC3982>the swedish article needs to be updated. it stated that number as "many" :3
08:55<Zuu>actually "more than 80"
08:56<__ln__>one, two, three, many
08:57*Zuu likes the "a pair" count. In some regions it really means two, while in others it could be up to 7 items or so.
08:58<Zuu>and in some contexts, it is just one item :-)
09:00<frosch123>Zuu: in german it depends on the capitalisation :p
09:00<frosch123>"Paar" is two, "paar" is a few
09:02<frosch123>though argueably capitalisation is hard to pronounce :p
09:03<NGC3982>Zuu: i read a paper on boson 3-sigma experiments at CERN, where they collided "a pair" of protons.
09:04<NGC3982>about 3-4 millon per bunch, that is.
09:05<ZxBiohazardZx>May day is for the nubs
09:06<ZxBiohazardZx>still being drunk after queensday is the key
09:07-!-robotboy [] has joined #openttd
09:08<NGC3982>sounds british.
09:10<ZxBiohazardZx>nah dutch
09:10<frosch123>yay, turned of the opengl renderer of widelands, now it works much better
09:11<frosch123>somehow opengl interlocks my whole machine into a single core thingie
09:22-!-DOUK [] has joined #openttd
09:27-!-mahmoud [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
09:27-!-Stimrol [] has joined #openttd
09:29-!-Stimrol_ [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
09:30-!-telanus1 [~Barney_Er@] has joined #openttd
09:33-!-MNIM [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
09:34-!-telanus [~Barney_Er@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
09:44-!-ZxBiohazardZx [] has quit [Quit: Make it idiot proof and someone will make a better idiot.]
09:47-!-robotboy [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
09:51-!-Xaroth [] has quit [Quit: leaving]
09:52-!-Xaroth [] has joined #openttd
10:02-!-hackalittlebit [] has joined #openttd
10:03-!-goodger [] has joined #openttd
10:05<hackalittlebit>STR_FILE_MENU_LOAD_GAME appears only in language files. Is that correct?
10:08<frosch123>my grep says the same :)
10:08<hackalittlebit>and other question, in game options ; option "Road Vehicles" " drive on right side" or " drive on lLeft side" is that for trains also?
10:09<frosch123>depends on the signal side setting
10:09<hackalittlebit>for signals
10:09<frosch123>the signal side setting is entirely stupid, it allows to choose between "always on left" and "on driving side"
10:09<frosch123>i.e. you cannot drive on left and have the signal right :p
10:10<hackalittlebit>I will look into it :)
10:11<frosch123>that string was added between 0.7 and 1.0
10:11<frosch123>but is not used in 1.0 either
10:11<frosch123>ah, though maybe it was only renamed in 1.0
10:15<frosch123>STR_015D_LOAD_GAME was already unused in 0.3.5
10:16<frosch123>oh, silly me
10:16<frosch123>hackalittlebit: the string is used
10:16<frosch123>the strings in a classic dropdown follow consecutively
10:16<frosch123>thus only the first one (STR_FILE_MENU_SAVE_GAME) is referenced in the code
10:17<NGC3982>speaking of
10:17<NGC3982>is there any reason to ever use other string names then "STR_*"?
10:17<peter1138>trains don't drive on a side
10:17<__ln__>NGC3982: *than
10:18<NGC3982>__ln__: thank you.
10:18<NGC3982>it seems like your previous corrections of the same word didnt really help.
10:18<__ln__>you're welcome
10:19<NGC3982>for some reason, all these years on the internet still havent blessed me with adequate english.
10:21<hackalittlebit>peter1138:could it be seperated for cars and trains, here in portugal cars on the right and trains on the left
10:21<peter1138>hackalittlebit, train drive in the middle of a tile, they don't have a side
10:22<hackalittlebit>I mean signals
10:27<peter1138>i suppose it could
10:28<hackalittlebit>so for now the string in the "option menu" should be "cars and signal" "on the right" or "on the left"
10:31-!-Rhamphoryncus [] has joined #openttd
10:34<frosch123>hackalittlebit: likely the best option is to make the signal side setting a three way setting: left, driving side, right
10:36<frosch123>well, actually let's just do that
10:36-!-andythenorth [] has joined #openttd
10:37<NGC3982>in a system with low powered engines. is more and shorter trains preferable in terms of economy?
10:38<NGC3982>the running cost is negligible
10:40<hackalittlebit>don't know what's happening but I can not change that setting anymore inside the game :(
10:41<frosch123>road vehicle side can only be changed as long as there are no roadvehicles on the map
10:41<frosch123>well, and only singleplayer of course
10:42<hackalittlebit>do new map, build car, still possible, drive car not possible anymore.
10:42-!-fonsinchen [] has joined #openttd
10:42<frosch123>ah, so it is enough if they are in depot :)
10:43<hackalittlebit>not after you drove
10:43<frosch123>anyway, that is the reason why the driving side belongs into the mapgen settings
10:43<hackalittlebit>should be possible if inside depot
10:43<hackalittlebit>no not good idear
10:44<hackalittlebit>should only be possible before game starts
10:44-!-dotwaffle [] has joined #openttd
10:44-!-dotwaffle [] has quit []
10:44-!-dotwaffle [] has joined #openttd
10:45-!-mal2 [] has joined #openttd
10:51<hackalittlebit>frosch123: I'll implement your proposal.
10:51<hackalittlebit>for now
10:51<frosch123>i am already doing it
10:52<frosch123>just need to figure out how to cause minimum hassle for the conversion of openttd.cfg
10:53<hackalittlebit>have to go
10:53-!-hackalittlebit [] has quit [Quit: ajax IRC Client]
11:08-!-lorem_ipsum [] has joined #openttd
11:09<lorem_ipsum>is there a way to set the revision manually for the configure script?
11:11<lorem_ipsum>--revision worked earlier, but not anymore
11:13<CIA-1>OpenTTD: frosch * r24191 /trunk/src/table/settings.ini: -Fix: If you consider a settings to potentially cause desyncs via NewGRFs and thus disallow changing it in network games, you should probably also sync it to clients.
11:14<frosch123>lorem_ipsum: no, there was a major incident with that setting, it it was doomed for all times
11:16<lorem_ipsum>is there an other way to set the revision? Like an environment variable
11:20-!-supermop [] has joined #openttd
11:21-!-telanus1 [~Barney_Er@] has left #openttd [QUIT :Leaving.]
11:22<Rubidium>lorem_ipsum: wanting to override the revision means you want to do something that you shouldn't be doing
11:22<lorem_ipsum>i'm trying to build a gentoo ebuild for openttd nightly
11:23<lorem_ipsum>The problem is the build system makes an svn checkout and copies the content (without .svn) to a workdir
11:23<Rubidium>previous results have shown that the majority think they are doing it 'right', but they're simply not
11:23<lorem_ipsum>so the information is lost in that process
11:24<lorem_ipsum>i just wanted to check if there's a solution which doesn't require copying the .svn as well
11:24<Rubidium>if you want nightlies, then download the tarball from the website
11:25<Rubidium>instead of using subversion, as then it's quite likely you're not getting a nightly but some other trunk revision
11:27<lorem_ipsum>correcting nightly to latest
11:27<lorem_ipsum>but the nightly should work
11:27<Rubidium>though doesn't emerging a new version require a new ebuild (one with a different name)
11:28<lorem_ipsum>i want a 9999 ebuild always fetching the latest revision and building it
11:29<Rubidium>what's so hard about svn up && make ?
11:29<lorem_ipsum>see above
11:29<supermop>I have a rail sprite question:
11:29<Rubidium>to me it seems a bit bureaucratic
11:29<supermop>there is a separate sprite for x junction
11:30<supermop>can i also provide special sprites for Y junctions?
11:30<lorem_ipsum>portage removes the .svn and i wanted to check if it works without addintion copying of the .svn
11:31<supermop>Rubidium: that no to me?
11:31<Rubidium>(unless being pedantic, then yes as one could use git or mercurial)
11:31<lorem_ipsum>i guess he means me :-)
11:31<supermop>ah ok
11:31<lorem_ipsum>would be the same there
11:31<lorem_ipsum>so i'm just copying the .svn as well
11:32<supermop>also; can rail tiles have CC, and if not, can caternary have CC?
11:33<CIA-1>OpenTTD: frosch * r24192 /trunk/src/settings.cpp: -Fix [FS#5153-ish]: Also use default value when reading an invalid integer setting value.
11:34<CIA-1>OpenTTD: frosch * r24193 /trunk/src/settings.cpp: -Fix (r24191): Also update comments accordingly.
11:35<frosch123>supermop: depos and fences can have cc
11:35<frosch123>i guess the rest cannot
11:35-!-fonsinchen [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
11:36<supermop>guess not, or know not?
11:36<supermop>I can at least have custom caternary sprites per rail type though?
11:36<frosch123>i know for depots and fences, not for the rest :)
11:36<frosch123>catenary is per railtype, yes
11:37<supermop>so I could postion and draw a 3rd rail with cover as a caternary? or is that a bad idea?
11:37<frosch123> <- the stuff in that table is per railtype
11:37<supermop>i want to give it the appearance of height relative to the rails at 4x zoom
11:39<frosch123>supermop: height is not a matter of catenary
11:39<frosch123>the question is the sorting order with the train
11:39<frosch123>the rail is drawn before drawing the train, the catenary after the train
11:41-!-TWerkhoven[l] [] has joined #openttd
11:41<supermop>but if the 3rd rail is in front of the track, and is 'tall' I might want it to appear in front of the train
11:42-!-fonsinchen [] has joined #openttd
11:42-!-lorem_ipsum [] has left #openttd []
11:42<supermop>that is occlude part of the bogies
11:43<supermop>I guess i could always draw the 3rd rail behind
11:43<supermop>then it wouldn't matter
11:45*andythenorth ponders
11:46<supermop>want to help me draw and code andy?
11:46<andythenorth>make each FIRS industry a self-contained nml file, have nml compile it to nfo (as needed)
11:46<andythenorth>then use python to mangle the nfo header stuff off, and concatenate
11:46<andythenorth>then compile grf with grfcodec
11:46<supermop>you always seem to want to make things complicated....
11:46<andythenorth>slow thing is slow
11:47<andythenorth>dull thing is dull
11:48<andythenorth>nmlc migt be persuaded to leave a comment in the compiled nfo
11:48<andythenorth>like '//split_here'
11:49<andythenorth>split on that, join, write file
11:49<andythenorth>it's about 7 lines :P
11:49<andythenorth>it will be quick
11:49<andythenorth>to write and run
11:51<andythenorth>when economies are added to FIRS, it will be unbearably slow to compile
11:51<supermop>compile farm?
11:52<andythenorth>compile needs to be made parallel before that's of value
11:52<andythenorth>nml is not currently parallel
11:52<andythenorth>my proposal goes towards making it parallel, or compiling only what's needed
11:53<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause....planetmak*r, Yex* and Terkh*n are all busy with RL. Alb*rth doesn't like newgrf or cpp much, and Foobar is buried in Dutch trains. How much do you want economies? ;)
11:53<CIA-1>OpenTTD: frosch * r24194 /trunk/src/ (60 files in 4 dirs): -Change: Rename the 'signal_side' setting to 'train_signal_side', and add a third option while doing so.
11:54<andythenorth>this question is unrelated to monologue above
11:54<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: make nml output a special action C?
11:54<andythenorth>nice idea
11:54*andythenorth wonders if nmlc likes being run via python multoprocessing
11:57<Eddi|zuHause>does nmlc support action C yet? like a "document()" macro or something?
11:58<Eddi|zuHause>or a special #pragma
12:02*andythenorth wonders if that's like multiprocessing :P
12:07<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: would the technique work for CETS?
12:08<Eddi|zuHause>yes, but CETS compile time is fairly reduced now...
12:09*andythenorth pulls
12:10<Eddi|zuHause>from like 7 minutes to 2 minutes
12:10<andythenorth>70% or so :)
12:11<Eddi|zuHause>3 steps: using grfcodec as intermediate step, removing the "deps" run, and removing all sprite template calculations
12:12<Eddi|zuHause>nmlc: "sprites/nml/industries/arable_farm.pnml", line 167: Unrecognized identifier 'build_prod_change' encountered
12:13<andythenorth>missing file?
12:13<andythenorth>let's see
12:13-!-Progman [] has joined #openttd
12:13<andythenorth>update nml
12:13<andythenorth>that's cb 15F
12:13-!-th_gergo [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
12:14<Eddi|zuHause>ah, ok...
12:14<andythenorth>sprite templates is interesting optimisation
12:14<andythenorth>probably applies to FIRS
12:15<Eddi|zuHause>firs builds in 48 seconds here
12:19<Eddi|zuHause> 251/1 0.005 0.000 3.471 3.471
12:19<Eddi|zuHause>what's that?
12:23<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: your sprite templates don't seem to use a lot of calculations...
12:23<andythenorth>FIRS is ~39s for me
12:24<Eddi|zuHause>but the first two steps may shave off like 50%
12:24<Freudian>okay well I have been here for about five hours and I haven't understood a single word any of you have said.
12:24<Freudian>OLLIE OUT
12:24-!-Freudian [] has quit [Quit: OLLIE]
12:24<Eddi|zuHause>freudian slipped...
12:27-!-brambles [brambles@] has quit [Quit: leaving]
12:27-!-brambles [brambles@] has joined #openttd
12:28-!-roadt [~roadt@] has joined #openttd
12:28<andythenorth>a grfcodec encode of FIRS is about 1-2s
12:28<andythenorth>I should patch the makefile to use that route :P
12:29<andythenorth>and remove the deps
12:29<andythenorth>I *always* build 'make clean' anyway, because deps are unreliable
12:32-!-th_gergo [] has joined #openttd
12:38<Eddi|zuHause>CETS revisions 548 and 549 might be for you then
12:40*andythenorth looks
12:45-!-pugi_ [] has joined #openttd
12:45-!-pugi [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
12:45-!-pugi_ is now known as pugi
12:46<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: I've copied cets r549 to firs
12:47<andythenorth>nmlc: "scripts/Makefile.nml", line 1: Syntax error, unexpected token "USE_NML"
12:47<andythenorth>builds though
12:47<andythenorth>palette was wrong for some reason :P
12:47<Eddi|zuHause>err... yes... i modified the palette flag
12:47<Eddi|zuHause>if FIRS uses windows palette, you need to change that back
12:47<andythenorth>I know where that is
12:48<Eddi|zuHause>in the grfcodec line
12:48<Eddi|zuHause>the -p1 to -p2
12:48-!-FLHerne [] has joined #openttd
12:49<andythenorth>any idea about the unexpected token?
12:49<andythenorth>it's not new :P
12:49<andythenorth>[line 1 not new]
12:49<andythenorth>didn't throw errors before though
12:50<Eddi|zuHause>no idea what that even is
12:53<andythenorth>nmlc tries to parse Makefile.nml?
12:53<andythenorth>seems odd
12:54<andythenorth>happens during the dep check I think
12:54<andythenorth>I need to murder the dep check anyway, but not sure how to yet
12:54<andythenorth>r548 looks quite specific to cets
12:57<Eddi|zuHause>ignore the python part, just make an empty file firs.grf.dep or so
12:57<Eddi|zuHause>or put all .png files into that file
12:58-!-fonsinchen [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
12:58<Eddi|zuHause>as in "firs.grf: file1.png file2.png ..."
13:04<andythenorth>so removing the dep check also clears the error
13:06<andythenorth>'touch firs.gfx.dep' is sufficient to get the check to pass
13:06<andythenorth>but unfortunately make clean removes it :P
13:07*andythenorth is worried about leaving a mess all over the makefile
13:07<Eddi|zuHause>yes. put the "touch firs.gfx.dep" line to the place where the nml call was before, i.e. under the "firs.gfx.dep:" entry
13:09-!-supermop [] has quit [Quit: supermop]
13:09<Eddi|zuHause>or if you're evil, something like: echo 'firs.gfx.dep: \\' > firs.gfx.dep; find -iname '*.png' >> firs.gfx.dep
13:10-!-Zeknurn [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
13:10-!-Zeknurn [] has joined #openttd
13:12<Eddi|zuHause>err... that should be: echo 'firs.gfx: ...
13:12<Eddi|zuHause>wrong again
13:20-!-KouDy1 [~KouDy@] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
13:20<andythenorth>it is loud when a toddler tips over a box of lego
13:24<@Belugas>it's loud too when a father's foot steps on a pointy lego block
13:26<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: makes firs.grf depend on all png files unconditionally
13:26<Eddi|zuHause>which is "close enough" if you assume that (almost) all png files are actually used
13:27<Eddi|zuHause>./sprites/graphics/industries/grainmill.old.png <-- things like this possibly not :)
13:33<Eddi|zuHause>NGC3982: that misses half the joke
13:33<Eddi|zuHause>NGC3982: better go to the original:
13:33*andythenorth had lego tidying issues :P
13:34-!-cypher [] has joined #openttd
13:34<andythenorth>makefile editing sucks when you write a lot of python
13:34<andythenorth>my editor converts tab to 4-space :P
13:34<Eddi|zuHause>NGC3982: (and see the hover text)
13:34<andythenorth>which breaks
13:35<Eddi|zuHause>get a smarter editor, who can do these settings based on (autodetected) language
13:36<andythenorth>it's parsing -iname as chars I think :P
13:36<Eddi|zuHause>your find is weirder than mine, then
13:37<andythenorth>BSD find
13:37<andythenorth>-name looks like a similar flag
13:38<Eddi|zuHause>-iname makes case-insensitive matching
13:38<Eddi|zuHause>at least in GNU find
13:39-!-glx [glx@2a01:e35:2f59:c7c0:d99c:5872:e03c:f5ff] has joined #openttd
13:39-!-mode/#openttd [+v glx] by ChanServ
13:41<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: try to make it "find . -iname blah"
13:42<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: or try just "-name"
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: translators * r24195 /trunk/src/lang/czech.txt:
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: czech - 1 changes by Paragulis
13:46-!-fonsinchen [] has joined #openttd
13:46-!-Devroush [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
13:49-!-peteris [~peteris@] has joined #openttd
13:49-!-Devroush [] has joined #openttd
13:51<andythenorth>find: -printf: unknown option
13:51<Eddi|zuHause>ah. then forget it.
13:51<Eddi|zuHause>your find is stupid
13:51<Eddi|zuHause>it's useless
13:52<andythenorth>bsd has to be different :)
13:56-!-Devroush [] has quit []
13:59<CornishPasty>Just install gnu, andythenorth
14:00<frosch123>any is more into ponies than gnus
14:01<andythenorth>unicorns :P
14:02<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: my solution is dumb (L47)
14:02<andythenorth>it stupidly requires make clean for first build :P
14:03<andythenorth>it does build in 20s though :D
14:03<andythenorth>from clean
14:03<Eddi|zuHause>the %.grrf: line is wrongly indented
14:05<Eddi|zuHause>and don't put the touch in clean: put it under %.gfx.dep:
14:05<andythenorth>now it doesn't build after I fixed the indentation :P
14:05<andythenorth>fixed again :P
14:06<Eddi|zuHause>%.gfx.dep: $(V_) touch $@
14:07<Eddi|zuHause>on two separate lines, of course
14:10<andythenorth>this is back: nmlc: "scripts/Makefile.nml", line 1: Syntax error, unexpected token "USE_NML"
14:10*andythenorth wonders if it's L56
14:10<andythenorth>depend:: Makefile.dep $(patsubst %.grf,%.src.dep,$(GRF_FILES)) $(patsubst %.grf,%.gfx.dep,$(GRF_FILES))
14:11<Eddi|zuHause>no idea what that means
14:13<@planetmaker>it means that the target 'depend' is executed when...
14:13<@planetmaker>- Makefile.dep, *.src.dep for every *.grf and *.gfx.dep for every *.grf is made
14:14<@planetmaker>makefile differs between tab and space. They have a meaning
14:14<andythenorth>so I found :)
14:15<andythenorth>planetmaker: I don't want to drive a bus through all your makefile work with this
14:15<andythenorth>I'm kind of hacking at stuff with no real idea
14:17<andythenorth>this builds in 23s but with 3 errors
14:18<andythenorth>all errors are nmlc: "scripts/Makefile.nml", line 1: Syntax error, unexpected token "USE_NML"
14:34-!-Alberth [] has joined #openttd
14:34-!-mode/#openttd [+o Alberth] by ChanServ
14:38-!-supermop [] has joined #openttd
14:40<andythenorth>you missed it
14:46<@Alberth>I'll be in time for 0.7.6 :)
14:49<andythenorth>you missed the makefile discussion :)
14:51<@Alberth>did anything interesting came out of it?
14:51<andythenorth>@calc 39-23
14:51<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: 16
14:51<andythenorth>@calc 16/39
14:51<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: 0.410256410256
14:51<andythenorth>with Eddi's patch I have FIRS building 40% faster, but with 3 errors
14:51<andythenorth>and also :|
14:52<andythenorth>the errors don't affect the grf, only the dep check afaict
14:52<@Alberth>ditch dep construction?
14:52<andythenorth>kind of
14:52<andythenorth>I don't know how though
14:52<andythenorth>my attempts to delete .dep things made the build slower :P
14:53<andythenorth>^ current state of scripts/Makefile.nml
14:54<@Alberth>rm -rf <-- haha :)
14:55-!-flaa [] has joined #openttd
14:56<@Alberth>hmm, update to tip fails
14:57<@Alberth>nmlc: "sprites/nml/industries/arable_farm.pnml", line 167: Unrecognized identifier 'build_prod_change' encountered <-- it does boem :(
14:58<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: update nml, had the same problem
14:59<@Alberth>trying that :)
14:59<@Alberth>thanks for helping though :)
15:01-!-mahmoud [] has joined #openttd
15:01*andythenorth did patch nml ;)
15:01<andythenorth>I should patch the errors too :P
15:06-!-DOUK [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
15:06<@Alberth>translation updated :)
15:07<andythenorth>now you just need to fix the makefile ;)
15:07<andythenorth>or nml
15:07<@Alberth>or make nml2 ?
15:08<andythenorth>this is the wrong approach to optimisation, but...
15:08<@Alberth>making a newgrf linker would be fun, I think :)
15:08-!-Firartix [] has joined #openttd
15:08<andythenorth>I want to be able to put in delimiters for identifier scope
15:08<andythenorth>to reduce scanning
15:08<andythenorth>in a well-designed newgrf, it's trivial to localise all varaction 2 IDs
15:08<andythenorth>perhaps only if you wrote a lot of nfo though :P
15:09<andythenorth>BANDIT for example would scope easily to each vehicle
15:09<andythenorth>FIRS uses one varaction 2 ID shared between industries, not more
15:10<andythenorth>with local scoping, the problem becomes more parallel afaict
15:10-!-Chris_Booth [] has joined #openttd
15:11<@Alberth>I don't know what things get transfered from one nfo rule to another one
15:11<andythenorth>if you read the chain of IDs it's usually trivial
15:11<andythenorth>nfo is remarkably, pleasingly simple in that respect
15:11<andythenorth>not in others :P
15:12<andythenorth>I'm not convinced that the globally scoped identifiers are a significant win
15:12<andythenorth>they might be a bad design
15:12<@Alberth>it's easy to implement, perhaps
15:12<andythenorth>that's very important
15:12<andythenorth>perhaps the most important thing
15:13<andythenorth>bad designs aren't bad necessarily
15:13<andythenorth>every time I use nml, I'm grateful for it
15:15<andythenorth>the consistent use of ${} in BANDIT is telling
15:15<andythenorth>switch (FEAT_ROADVEHS, SELF, ${}_articulated_cb_switch, extra_callback_info1) {
15:15<andythenorth>every identifier uses that pattern
15:15<andythenorth>which suggests scopes :P
15:15<andythenorth>and if we had scopes, we could have partial compile
15:17<andythenorth>no partial compile while identifiers *might* be global
15:17<andythenorth>compile of a grf like FIRS needs to be in ~10s range
15:23<@Alberth>I think it is not enough; you need the concept of a code-thingie with some 'holes' in it, which does not exist (for nml, nfo, nor grf)
15:26<frosch123>wasn't the longest time for nml the encoding of the realsprites?
15:26<andythenorth>Alberth: you mean, 'a template' ?
15:27<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: that is "fixed" by using grfcodec
15:27<frosch123>so, maybe those should be preencoded
15:27<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: nml outputs to nfo, nfo is processed by grfcodec
15:27<frosch123>does andy also do that?
15:28<andythenorth>nobody seriously encodes the grf with nmlc
15:28<andythenorth>at least if they can figure out how to hack their makefile to avoid it :P
15:28<Eddi|zuHause>yes. he copied that from CETS
15:28<frosch123>he, ok :)
15:28<andythenorth>nml -> nfo -> grfcodec is *significantly* faster
15:28<andythenorth>everyone should do it
15:29<@planetmaker>it's a hack at best
15:29<@planetmaker>in my eyes
15:29<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: you need to add a dependency for the devzone's build farm
15:29<@planetmaker>yes, devzone won't build that w/o updating the .devzone spec file
15:30<andythenorth>also hrm
15:30<andythenorth>I'm not committing any of this makefile hacking right now
15:30<andythenorth>I don't trust what I'm doing :P
15:30<@Alberth>moin planetmaker
15:30<@planetmaker>hi Alberth :-)
15:30*andythenorth reverts the makefile changes for safety reasons
15:31<@Alberth>you should do such experiments in a clone :)
15:31<andythenorth>FIRS nml -> nfo -> grfcodec is < 11s
15:32<andythenorth>FIRS nml -> grf is < 40s
15:32<andythenorth>maybe I just dev with the I made
15:32<andythenorth>and leave the makefile alone for the CF
15:41<@Alberth>a template is where you define where the hole is, and you supply its value. Linking copies values from the defining part to the part that needs it, and it is not fixed before you start linking what values are missing, where it should be copied from, or what its value is going to be
15:43<andythenorth>linking sounds like a thing for grown up developers :)
15:44<@Alberth>if you want to make it, yes. Using it should be simple, not much more complicated than gcc with .o files :)
15:45<andythenorth>my idea is to be able to call partial compiles on nml
15:45<andythenorth>which is probably bad
15:46*Alberth nods
15:46<@Alberth>grf would be ideal in a sense
15:47<@Alberth>although you need a bit more than just grf, as you need to keep track of values you define and values you need (names, offsets, and value)
15:51<@Alberth>the 'only' problem is however that currently nothing generates partially compiled output, so it's a format without any users.
15:53<@planetmaker>well. With container format v2, one could possibly write chunks of that in separate files or so. And then combine that
15:54<@Alberth>too many nice projects, and too little time :(
15:59-!-DDR [] has joined #openttd
16:06<@planetmaker>yeah :-(
16:06<@planetmaker>Did I mention that I really like the output of your lang check script, Alberth?
16:06<@Alberth>not before now :) thanks :)
16:07<@planetmaker>I'm just pondering how the best way to get it flying.
16:07<@planetmaker>Probably make it part of the makefile framework├č
16:08<@planetmaker>then every project has it and it can be called. Also offline by authors
16:08<@planetmaker>Ammler suggested to make --html the default
16:08<@planetmaker>it would mean the existing CF need not really change
16:08<@planetmaker>just the files which need copying to the bundles server
16:09<@Alberth>the script queries and builds a cache of old revisions of the master language, if it can process several languages in the same run, it would become cheaper
16:10<@planetmaker>can it or would it be a (future) enhancement?
16:10<@Alberth>currently you cannot do that, mostly because you cannot express it to the script
16:11<@Alberth>ie I don't destroy any data I build in the process, so just chaining several calls together inside the script should work
16:12<@Alberth>but you need to be able to say *.lng, and have a different way than > x.html for catching output :p
16:13<@planetmaker>*.html simple?
16:13<@planetmaker>w/o stating it explicitly
16:13<@planetmaker>and just --all instead
16:13<@Alberth>'.lng' is fixed?
16:14<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: not in CETS
16:14<@Alberth>we need at least one project to confirm the rule :p
16:15<@Alberth>but ok, it's not thus :)
16:15<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: we use "", because we add strings
16:15<@planetmaker>what do you mean with ".lng is fixed"? The extension?
16:15<andythenorth>I use .pylng
16:15<@Alberth>yes, otherwise you have to state what extension is safe to cut
16:16<@Alberth>ie --extension=.lng
16:17<@Alberth>so something like "cl --html -d --extension=.lng --output-dir=foo lang/english.lng lang/*.lng" <-- where the second english.lng should silently get ignored
16:18<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: "--master lang/english.txt"?
16:18<@Alberth>giving you foo/*.html, I guess
16:18<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: and use "english" as default when nothing is given
16:19<@Alberth>Eddi|zuHause: to make the master language a bit more explicit? could be, but is more typing when called manually
16:20<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: well, if you add a default value, you actually have less typing :p
16:21<@Alberth>Currently, I don't do magic searches for *.lng files, so unless you are in lang, and your master file is called 'english', it won't work :p
16:21<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: and if you give it an --input-dir and an --extension, then you can ommit all the lang/*.lng, and have it just go through all files in the directory
16:21<@Alberth>but defaults should be looked into as well
16:22*Alberth likes --input-dir
16:23<@Alberth>now we just have to extend the nml format to state that translations are up-to-date even when the revisions say otherwise, and extend to state strings don't need translations :p
16:25<supermop>can railtypes have custom foundations?
16:25<@Alberth>oh, and multi-line strings too of course (which is still in the inqueue of nml :( )
16:26<@planetmaker>railtypes have no foundations
16:26<@planetmaker>they use the default ones, if needed
16:26<supermop>hmm boo
16:27<supermop>can i use any sprite template of my creation for railtypes, or must i draw sprites in the same order as the originals
16:28<@Alberth>as long as you mention them in the right order in nfo or nml, it should be fine, I think
16:29<@Alberth>at least I don't see how that could break
16:29<supermop>and can I add both the 1x and 4x sprites in nml?
16:33<@planetmaker>you can add any zoom level or bit depth which OpneTTD supports
16:33<@planetmaker>You must supply 8bpp 1x
16:33-!-Progman [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
16:34-!-Wolf01 [~wolf01@] has quit [Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.]
16:40*andythenorth -> bed
16:40<andythenorth>good night
16:40-!-andythenorth [] has left #openttd []
16:56-!-Alberth [] has left #openttd []
16:56-!-Prof_Frink [] has joined #openttd
16:59-!-cyph3r [] has joined #openttd
17:01-!-cypher [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
17:01-!-peteris [~peteris@] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat]
17:06-!-frosch123 [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
17:15-!-Firartix [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
17:21-!-theholyduck [~holyduck@] has joined #openttd
17:21-!-goodger [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
17:35-!-oskari89 [] has quit []
17:36-!-Chris_Booth [] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla [Firefox 12.0/20120417165043]]
17:38<Ammler>planetmaker: having --html as default was just an example, not really important, if the synstax isn't exactly the same as current
17:39<@planetmaker>what is important then?
17:39<@planetmaker>and what is nice to have?
17:40<Ammler>either exact the same as now or it does not matter at all
17:41<Ammler>also cache is useless
17:42<Ammler>if I got that right, just read partially back :-)
17:42<Ammler>well, cache might be usefull, if you run it locally...
17:45<@planetmaker>cache as in not generating the info for the default language over and over when creating output for any language file.
17:46<Ammler>ah ok, so not meant to be used over different revs?
17:46<@planetmaker>no... over different lang files
17:46<@planetmaker>so, yes. Not meant to be used over revs. Over lang files
17:47<@planetmaker>or that's how I understood it
17:47<Ammler>ok, never mind then...
17:50-!-guru3 [] has joined #openttd
17:51<Eddi|zuHause> <-- that is totally genious [german] :)
18:02-!-mal2 [] has quit [Read error: No route to host]
18:02-!-mal2 [] has joined #openttd
18:03<Zuu>Ammler: At the bundles server of, do you always keep the bundles now in a /releases/ path appended to the path given in the finger?
18:04<Zuu>Eg, can I fix OTTDAU by assuming the /releases/ path or will that break in some cases?
18:05-!-sla_ro|master [~slaco@] has quit [Quit: DANGER is OFFLINE DANGER]
18:07-!-FLHerne [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
18:08<Zuu>According to the syntax definition at, the third column should be the path it the binaries server. However, if you add /releases/ there, it breaks identification of those items as there is no other ID-column. So perhaps the best is that I implicitly adds it if the finger-address is the openttdcoop server.
18:10-!-fonsinchen [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
18:10<Zuu>hmm, I just prove me wrong. yacd doesn't have a "releases" directory added to the path. So it is not predictable for all items.
18:17-!-roadt [~roadt@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
18:22-!-kkb110_ [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
18:28-!-supermop [] has quit [Quit: supermop]
18:29-!-flaa [] has quit [Quit: leaving]
18:29-!-TGYoshi [~TGYoshi@] has quit [Quit: Popidopidopido]
18:34-!-Volley [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
18:36<Ammler>Zuu: it's the path
18:36<Ammler>yacd has no subdir
18:37<Ammler>afaik, it is like the finger file on
18:37<Ammler>but there is also LATEST
18:47-!-Netsplit <-> quits: DDR, namad7, ccfreak2k, Maarten_, EyeMWing, Arafangion, Rhamphoryncus
18:47-!-mahmoud [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
18:54-!-Maarten [] has joined #openttd
18:55-!-KritiK [] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
18:55-!-Netsplit over, joins: DDR
18:56-!-valhallasw [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
18:58-!-Netsplit over, joins: namad7
18:58-!-Netsplit over, joins: EyeMWing
18:59-!-Netsplit over, joins: Rhamphoryncus
19:04-!-Elukka [] has quit []
19:05<Zuu>yes yacd works correctly like finger on, however cargodist does not, as there is no way to resolve the path using only the information in the finger-file of
19:06<Zuu>Other than hardcoding that for cargodist one has to insert the /releases/ directory at the right place of the URL.
19:17-!-Zuu [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
19:25-!-Hazzard [] has joined #openttd
19:31-!-Keyboard_Warrior [~holyduck@] has joined #openttd
19:38-!-theholyduck [~holyduck@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
19:45-!-OwenS [] has quit [Quit: ZNC -]
19:47-!-OwenS [] has joined #openttd
19:51-!-Hazzard [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
19:52-!-holyduck [~holyduck@] has joined #openttd
19:57-!-ccfreak2k [] has joined #openttd
19:59-!-Keyboard_Warrior [~holyduck@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
20:09-!-drac_boy [] has joined #openttd
20:15-!-holyduck [~holyduck@] has quit [Quit: Forlater kanalen]
20:15-!-theholyduck [~holyduck@] has joined #openttd
20:24<drac_boy>hm...another of these slow night I guess
20:28-!-MNIM [] has joined #openttd
20:33-!-mal2 [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
20:36-!-pugi [] has quit []
20:39-!-theholyduck [~holyduck@] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
20:56-!-KouDy [~KouDy@] has joined #openttd
21:04-!-cyph3r [] has quit [Quit: Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier.]
21:20-!-DDR [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
21:21-!-drac_boy [] has left #openttd [I'm done being in this room!]
21:23-!-th_gergo [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
21:36-!-DDR [] has joined #openttd
21:59-!-theholyduck [~holyduck@] has joined #openttd
22:02-!-HerzogDeXtEr [] has joined #openttd
22:07-!-HerzogDeXtEr1 [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
22:26-!-ToxicFrog [] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out]
22:28-!-glx [glx@2a01:e35:2f59:c7c0:d99c:5872:e03c:f5ff] has quit [Quit: bye]
23:46-!-theholyduck [~holyduck@] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
---Logclosed Wed May 02 00:00:55 2012