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#openttd IRC Logs for 2012-05-03

---Logopened Thu May 03 00:00:56 2012
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03:24<__ln__>TrueBrain: nope, the CFLAGS thing does not fix the issue.
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03:51<Hazzard>Hey
03:52<dihedral>greetings
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03:57<Lugntuts>!password
03:57-!-Lugntuts is now known as Lugnuts
03:57<Lugnuts>Derp
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04:00<Hazzard>I just derped so hard
04:08<dihedral>oh - i thought you were derpina :-P
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04:32<Eddi|zuHause>so where is glx then?
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04:38<Fori>Hi!
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05:40<TrueBrain>__ln__: sad; and if you upgrade to Wheezy (or sid)?
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05:56<TrueBrain>__ln__: I guess there is no way any of us can get an SSH connection to that box, to fiddle around a bit? :)
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07:08<Eddi|zuHause>wtf? i don't understand hg...
07:08<Eddi|zuHause>a new file that was pulled cleanly from the repo
07:08<Eddi|zuHause>hg status says it's modified
07:08<Eddi|zuHause>hg diff says the complete file changed
07:08<Eddi|zuHause>hg diff -b says nothing changed
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07:09<Eddi|zuHause>hg revert does nothing. afterwards same thing
07:09<Eddi|zuHause>dos2unix and unix2dos also change nothing
07:10<__ln__>TrueBrain: it's my private email/etc server in my home network, so giving ssh access to outsiders is a bit of a problem :)
07:10<TrueBrain>__ln__: I can imagine ;)
07:10<TrueBrain>so we just bug you more with stuff :P
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10:11<drac_boy>hi
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10:14<dihedral>oi
10:14<drac_boy>how're you dihedral? :p
10:15<dihedral>well, and you?
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10:15<drac_boy>ok for now..just trying to sort out a few things -_-
10:16<drac_boy>wondering what to do next week as well heh
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10:23<drac_boy>dihedral what kind of trains you into btw? ;)
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10:24<dihedral>... interesting question considering i do not play :-D
10:24<oskari89>Hey, how can i convert introduction on year 1970 to date number in NewObject introduction date property?
10:24<drac_boy>dihedral you don't play with real trains? heh :-P
10:25<dihedral>i play with model planes :-)
10:25<dihedral>rc controlled, oh - and helicopters :-)
10:25<drac_boy>dihedral heh ok
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10:34<oskari89>And what is defauld build cost?
10:35<drac_boy>default? how about $1400 per track tile?
10:36<Eddi|zuHause>oskari89: usually you enter the date as an escape (nfo) or macro (nml)
10:36<Eddi|zuHause>oskari89: e.g \d1970-01-01
10:36<oskari89>Okay.
10:37<oskari89>That is macro?
10:37<Eddi|zuHause>that is an escape
10:37<oskari89>How is a macro?
10:37<Eddi|zuHause>a macro is date(1970,1,1)
10:37<oskari89>Okay :)
10:38<oskari89>So if i want something to introduce on 1.6.2001, i write: introduction_date (2001,6,1) ?
10:39<oskari89>Nml definitions :)
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11:34<@Belugas>salut
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12:49<andythenorth>hello
12:59<andythenorth>quiet
13:02<@Terkhen>hello
13:05<NataS>morning
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13:31<Wolf01>ello
13:31<Wolf01>+h
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13:33<@Alberth>hi
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13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: translators * r24197 /trunk/src/lang/ (belarusian.txt ukrainian.txt vietnamese.txt):
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: belarusian - 1 changes by Wowanxm
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: ukrainian - 2 changes by edd_k
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: vietnamese - 4 changes by nglekhoi
13:49<murr4y>elloh?
13:49<Wolf01>no, elhlo
13:50<andythenorth>lohel
13:55<andythenorth>roadtypees!
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14:02<oskari89>@seen Yexo
14:02<@DorpsGek>oskari89: Yexo was last seen in #openttd 20 hours, 39 minutes, and 36 seconds ago: <Yexo> good night all
14:07*Alberth types at a keyboard
14:09*andythenorth watches tom and jerry cartoons
14:09<andythenorth>again
14:09<andythenorth>again
14:09<andythenorth>and again
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14:11<@Alberth>moin
14:12<andythenorth>kauq
14:12<andythenorth>works for those in rtl :P
14:12<@Alberth>you should watch jerry and tom cartoons instead :)
14:16<frosch123>quak
14:17<frosch123>maybe there is also a "rana et ciconia " cartoon
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14:29<oskari89>I need help, how i do use sound callbacks (animation?) to produce continuous sound on certain NewObjects, coded by NML?
14:29<oskari89>*continous
14:32<oskari89>Here, under Interlocking buildings: http://users.tt-forums.net/finnish/friss.html
14:32<oskari89>There's those Default loops, which are to be coded :P
14:33<oskari89>But can there be random interval sounds in addition to default looping sound, as stated there?
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14:41<frosch123>oskari89: you cannot make continous noise
14:41<frosch123>you can restart a sound every few seconds maybe, but that's not necessarily the same
14:42<oskari89>Yexo told that using callbacks it could be possible :P
14:42<frosch123>well, yes, depends how "continuous" they shall be
14:43<frosch123>anyway, newgrfs use basically wav files
14:43<oskari89>It should sound non-stop :P
14:43<frosch123>they can start them, and then they play until they are finished
14:43<oskari89>What if it is called again when the former is still playing?
14:44<frosch123>if ottd runs in real time you can maybe make the start of sound line up with the end of the previous
14:44<frosch123>bug, if ottd starts lagging, the sound will lag as well
14:44<frosch123>oskari89: does not matter
14:44<frosch123>when a sound is started it does not longer now what started it
14:44<frosch123>*know
14:44<oskari89>Okay.
14:45<frosch123>but i think there is some limit on the number of sounds which are played simultaneously
14:45*Alberth thinks continuous sounds is very annoying
14:45<frosch123>and i believe the sound is also only played if the house is visible on the screen in the moment the sound is started
14:46<frosch123>Alberth: yes, pikkas trains are indeed very annoying
14:46<frosch123>but luckily i always play without sound anyway :)
14:46<@Alberth>I always play without pikkas trains :)
14:47<oskari89>I think that is good :P
14:47<oskari89>To have running sounds :)
14:47<frosch123>well, take a look at nars2. i forgot whether it is constant noise or only when accelerating
15:00<@Alberth>oskari89: that only works when it is not constant, otherwise it becomes just background noise
15:00<oskari89>:P
15:01<@Alberth>ie like a radio or tv that is on but you are not really listening/watching
15:02<oskari89>Well, Finnish Trainset has quite much of variation http://users.tt-forums.net/finnish/table/ftsdiesel.html
15:02<oskari89>And idling sounds too :P
15:03<oskari89>Sound levels aren't yet final, but...
15:03<oskari89>NARS2 hasn't got much variation, but those are better than that, i think.
15:03<NGC3982>http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/galex/galex20120502.html
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15:04<krinn>hi
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15:07<@Alberth>hi
15:08<Zuu>hello
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15:10<supermop>yo
15:10<krinn>hep zuu, should we use a title for message, or/and a switch to display them (some debug mode) and/or always or not display errors for SCP as we are a lib?
15:10<oskari89>Alberth: It does matter when zoomed in for a certain area, and then some train with running sounds comes across :P
15:10<oskari89>Other than that, silence.
15:11<@Alberth>right, like people have that few trains :)
15:11<oskari89>Few do ;)
15:12<oskari89>And it does really matter in FTS case when there's much variation with train/locomotive types :)
15:12<Zuu>krinn: Preferable dont display so much to the log. You could use a log-wrapper function that checks a AI config setting if logging should be done or not. Eg. scp_log_level, or go with the same log-setting as SuperLib uses.
15:12<Zuu>However, errors or warnings that are important are okay to display.
15:13<Zuu>Especially if they are due to someone using the library in the wrong way.
15:13<krinn>Zuu i have tried all i could, we cannot get any value from the hoster if the dev doesn't allow it, i could find what class call the lib, but this doesn't gave us much info, so we cannot reliably get version, progname or any settings of our host
15:13<Zuu>But by default, I would not log anything at the library startup.
15:14<krinn>so scp setting cannot depend on the AI/GS running it, as we're blind of what mode the script is running the lib
15:14<Zuu>Indeed, as OpenTTD don't have an API to get the short name etc. of the current AI.
15:15<krinn>i think a "SCP:" before any message/error to help see who say it
15:15<Zuu>That would be good yes.
15:15<krinn>so people could blame us instead of the script author :)
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15:17<Zuu>We can also use the API to read AI/GS settings, and then document that an AI/GS that want to allow players to tune SCP logging to include that setting.
15:17<@Alberth>you don't need AI/Script context knowledge?
15:17<Zuu>No
15:17<Zuu>SuperLib does this with two settings.
15:17<krinn>we cannot get it anyway Alberth
15:17<Zuu>One for signs and another for logging.
15:18<krinn>Zuu, but we could detect the dev_settings, so maybe 0 logging except errors if ai_dev settings off and logging when on ?
15:18<Zuu>Another option is to provide a way to turn on/off logging of the library by calling some function (that behind the sceens change a global variable with a very unique name)
15:20<Zuu>krinn: Also a posibility, as long as the logging is not too extensive and would become spammy for the AI/GS developer who want to see his/her own log messages.
15:20<@Alberth>krinn: that's no reason for using SCP: imho. If you want people reporting to you, you have to be able to deal with the problem without context info. If that's not possible, I'd say let it go through the AI/Script author (ie you are upstream for him), so you can get context information.
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15:21<krinn>Albert well for real crash error, it's easy, we get the context that target us, but the real problem is error made by the script author, per example using a class as arguement for a function that need an integer or other weird things
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15:22<Zuu>The real problem is if they send the wrong object type. A integer arg can be told apart from an object, but not two object types.
15:22*Alberth nods
15:22<Zuu>Eg, you can't get the type of an instance.
15:22<krinn>Zuu, maybe a public scp_logging scp_error settings the dev could swap himself with a default to off for logging, and on for errors?
15:23<Zuu>Althoug you could call .rawin("member") to check if a member exist :-)
15:23<Zuu>krinn: Sounds good
15:23<@Alberth>Zuu: and whether you want depends on your idea of the world.
15:23<@Alberth>do you trust your users or don't you?
15:24<@Alberth>checking every parameter on every call also takes time
15:24<krinn>could trust users, but cannot trust them blindly no?
15:24<@Alberth>krinn: why not?
15:24<Zuu>I think we generally should trust the script authors.
15:24<@Alberth>it's their program that crashes
15:24<krinn>because the lib also have a GS part, and that part is problematic
15:25<Zuu>But we should not crash if a evil player places evil signs at the communication tile.
15:25<krinn>the AI part crash, an AI crahs, the GS part crash, a server may crash for all users
15:25<Zuu>No, a GS will not crash the server
15:25<Zuu>But the GS will crash and the goals will not work anymore.
15:25<krinn>not the server, but ruinning all players goals...
15:27<Zuu>Some robustness is good, but the extreme end to check all input from scripts is also perhaps not the answer.
15:27<krinn>Zuu, keeping the register part alone should be enough so ?
15:28<Zuu>I haven't looked into the register part really to see how hard it would be for a human to trick it.
15:29<Zuu>But basically put the sign parser in a try-block and make sure to not crash no matter what a sign may contain.
15:29-!-BtbN [~BtbN@ip-178-203-177-90.unitymediagroup.de] has joined #openttd
15:29<Zuu>(I know this is not completely solid, but somewhat)
15:30<BtbN>Hi, how do i tell a train to unload passengers for transfer, and load goods, without re-loading the passengers?
15:30<krinn>The register part is enough complex at least to show it was intentional
15:31<Zuu>Well, we could try to break it later and see if it needs to be strengthed at some point.
15:31<krinn>Zuu, sounds good
15:35<Zuu>BtbN: For that I think you need a wagon that can refit between passenger and goods, something I don't know if it exists. Maybe NUTS have it?
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15:35<supermop>MUs in standard set
15:35<supermop>the manley-morrell can hold either
15:35<Zuu>With such wagons, you can refit the entire train to passenger or goods, and thus not have the problem of loading passengers after having transfered them.
15:36<BtbN>it's possible to shedule refit?
15:36<Zuu>Yes
15:36-!-kais58_ is now known as kais58
15:36<Zuu>Some sets also allow "auto-refit" which means that they can be refit in stations.
15:36<Zuu>Others can still be ordered to be refit in depots.
15:36<BtbN>how do i get such a wagon, if it's in standard set?
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15:37<Zuu>IIRC both OpenGFX+ Trains and UKRS support auto-refit.
15:38<krinn>BtbN, as town can accept passenger and good, but produce only passenger, i hardly see when you will need to load good without loading passenger?
15:38<Zuu>BtbN: In the standardset you need the engine that can have passenger in the locomotive. Build a couple of those and couple togeather.
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15:39<krinn>BtbN, if you have a train with passenger + good, just drop off the passenger at the station, load the one there and load the good there
15:40<krinn>are you routing passenger from town to an industry that produce good and drop them off there ?
15:40<BtbN>yep
15:40<krinn>openttd should hanlde insult signs from passengers :)
15:42<krinn>you could use a train that made the run from A thru B carrying them, even it will pass by C (the industry) to reuse existing rails and route from A-C and C-B
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15:43<krinn>and a full good trains that could load at C drop at A, next load at C drop at B if you wish balance in the two towns
15:47<krinn>ending with passengerTrain order: load at A, non-stop load at B and good train : load at C non stop B, load at C non stop A
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15:51<BtbN>Hm, my server does not load the OpenGFX+ Trains newgrf
15:51<BtbN>i put the .grf file in the newgrf dir, is that correct?
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15:55<krinn>BtbN, use content download, easier, faster, and opengfx trains is in the list
15:56<BtbN>it's a dedicated server without ui
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15:57<BtbN>ok, it lists OGFX+ Trains as installed, so my location seems to be ok
15:59<supermop>man I am surprised that no one wanted the (arguably) better depots that Oberhümer made for me...
15:59<supermop>oh, well 3 people have downloaded it
16:00<supermop>even though you can see an alignment problem in the screen shot. I'll need to figure out how to fix that
16:02<Chris_Booth>supermop: is it on bananas?
16:03<supermop>not the newest try
16:03<BtbN>will the client auto-download the newgrfs the server is using?
16:03<supermop>it still has some problems
16:04<supermop>i was hoping someone could look at them and give me a hand
16:04<Chris_Booth>supermop: you got a tt-forums link?
16:04<supermop>also oberhümer coded it for me, so I am not sure if it is proper for me to upload or if i should rewrite it myself
16:05<supermop>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=67&t=48681&start=20
16:05<frosch123>BtbN: moving the grf to the newgrf dir is not enough
16:05<frosch123>you also need to add it to the game
16:05<frosch123>if you start a new game you have to put it into openttd.cfg
16:05<BtbN>frosch123: i added a line under [newgrf] in cfg
16:06<BtbN>relative to newgrf dir
16:06<frosch123>but usually it is easier to set up a game with a gui client, transfer the game to server and start it with it
16:06<BtbN>yeah, but my local game saves the newgrfs in a diffrent location
16:06<frosch123>does not matter
16:06<frosch123>the savegame stores the newgrfs using the grfid and a checksum
16:06<frosch123>not with the path
16:07<BtbN>but i only transfered config, no savegame
16:07<BtbN>but it seems like it worked
16:08<BtbN>at least the Trains newgrf is listed as active when i'm connected
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16:25<supermop>hm this mac book air signs me out from irc all the time
16:29<oskari89>@seen as
16:29<@DorpsGek>oskari89: I have not seen as.
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16:40<@Alberth>good night
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17:44<Wolf01>g'night
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17:54<@Terkhen>good night
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20:26<Nat_aS>guh
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---Logclosed Fri May 04 00:01:00 2012