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#openttd IRC Logs for 2012-05-05

---Logopened Sat May 05 00:00:58 2012
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02:06*andythenorth considers downloading
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03:36<andythenorth>lo Alberth
03:36<@Alberth>moin andy
03:36<@Alberth>working towards working on FIRS? :)
03:36<andythenorth>working on work
03:37<andythenorth>re-acquainting myself with javascript
03:37<@Alberth>does not sound like fun :(
03:38<andythenorth>tis ok
03:38<Rhamphoryncus>javascript is only about half a PHP, so it's survivable if you have to
03:39<andythenorth>it comes with all the same problems
03:39<andythenorth>'plz send me the codez'
03:41<Rhamphoryncus>I was thinking the language itself
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04:21<Hazzard>A higher tractive_effort_coefficient: = higher acceleration, right?
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04:38<krinn>openttd 1.2 display only signs of my own company now, that's great, but is there a way to get back old behavior (display all signs in the sign panel) ?
04:38<Eddi|zuHause>try advanced settings
04:39<krinn>Eddi|zuHause, was the first thing i've look at, i miss it or it's not there
04:40<Hazzard>Possibly adv settings>display options>show company liveries
04:41<krinn>set to all companies already
04:41<Hazzard>(whoops, I missed >interface>
04:42<krinn>it's ok it's where i have look too: you speak about "loading" and "liveries" for companies, both set to all
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04:44<krinn>i was more looking for a console switch as i wouldn't be surprise no one add this as option in the GUI, the new feature is far better, except for my special case
04:48<CornishPasty>krinn: I'm pretty sure there is a way to do it, but I don't have OpenTTD installed on this machine atm :(
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04:52<Hazzard>I can't get this turck to accelerate at a reasonable speed >:(
04:52<krinn>release handbrake?
04:53<Hazzard>Is there a parameter for that?
04:53<Hazzard>mustof missed it :P
04:53<@Alberth>RV acceleration model?
04:57<frosch123> <- poll: bot or not? :)
04:57<krinn><even though i am a girl> vote yes
04:58<Hazzard>Alberth: Realistic, but with original it goes even slower
04:58<@Alberth>ok, so you did not miss that one :)
04:59<Hazzard>This says the high the tractive effort the better
04:59<@Alberth>In TTDPatch, first post? /me votes for bot
04:59<Hazzard>This says the opposite
05:00<@Alberth>Hazzard: accelerate != high max speed
05:00<Hazzard>You know what I mean.
05:00<@Alberth>high TE means it can pull heavy loads
05:00<Hazzard>whoops, the first link says lower the better
05:01<Hazzard>and what about weight
05:01<@Alberth>lighter is better, but light engines cannot pull heavy weights :)
05:01<Hazzard>maybe it has something to do with air resistance
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05:13<Hazzard>The max speed is 241 km/hr, maybe that is too unreasonable for a truck...
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05:16<@Terkhen>good morning
05:16<Zuu>morning Terkhen
05:16<@Terkhen>Hazzard: play with the air drag property
05:16<@Terkhen>by default the air drag value is based on (IIRC) max speed
05:16<@Terkhen>but you can change it or disable air drag completely if you want to
05:16<krinn>hi Terkhen Zuu
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05:17<Zuu>hello krinn
05:17<@Terkhen>the max speed limit without setting it was (IIRC) roughly near 240 so that's probably your issue
05:17<Hazzard>I only once saw it reach 240
05:19<Hazzard>Ok, I gtg now
05:20<@Terkhen>see you
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05:29<@Terkhen>hi Wolf01
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05:58<krinn>Zuu ?
05:59<krinn>i've update the tests scripts, now they are working
06:00<krinn>the lib mostly work, still need to work on relaying messages for aiaiproto and strengh commands usage some more
06:01<Zuu>So the ai-ai protocol is still ment to be included?
06:02<Zuu>How do you see on having a default command on the GS-side that return a list of all command sets supported by the GS?
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06:06<krinn>yeah the ai-ai need to be made
06:06<krinn>for the 2nd: i return the list of command handle by the GS while registring with the client
06:06<Zuu>I though we decided to drop it, but if you want to do it, sure go ahead :-)
06:07<krinn>well, it's not made yet, and if the GS config is set to reject it, none can use it
06:08<krinn>as client record their command by creation : says "Test" command is the 3rd command, then client "Test" command = 2
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06:08<krinn>when registering with the server, the server tell "Test" is command = 6 (the 5rd command handle by the server) and the client change its command "Test" to = 6
06:09<krinn>so all clients must comply to server command numbering, and doing so, grab also commands the server is using (hence your list of server commands)
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06:09<Zuu>I wondered how you handeled that when I started to try to use it, as by my memory we used integers for command IDs.
06:10<Zuu>Eg. not transmitting the full name of the command.
06:10<krinn>Zuu, yep, that's why we need to match client_command_id with server_command_id, else client might send 2 as command "Test" while server is handling 2 - "anotherCmd" and 5 - "Test"
06:11<Zuu>So, a GS should setup the SCP part within the startup ticks.
06:11<krinn>it does already
06:11<Zuu>To ensure that it has registred all commands before a client tries to hand shake.
06:11<krinn>the register part for server send the commands and reassign, the client part grab them and apply the new value
06:12<krinn>Zuu, and we don't need to setup at first tick : as long as registration isn't made, server ignore all commands :)
06:12<Zuu>What if badly coded GS A does lots of setup tasks so that it will only come to the point of setting up SCP 1 gameyear into the game. What if AI X tries to communicate with A before it is set up? Will that just work because the GS will not scan signs until it has been setup?
06:13<krinn>if AI isn't registred, all its commands are buffered : once registration is done, the buffer is clean and commands sent
06:13<Zuu>So there shouldn't be a problem if the GS is slower than the AI to startup.
06:14<krinn>yep, the AI have 2 ways to handle that
06:14<krinn>just send the commands : and they will get auto-add to the buffer
06:14<krinn>or check CanSpeakWith() that will return true if the command will be done without buffering
06:15<Zuu>if the SCP code runs, otherwise they will just sit around as signs on the map. Using the map as a buffer :-)
06:15<krinn>yep, but just 1 sign, as the buffered commands aren't execute at all, but kept until they could
06:15<krinn>only the reg query will be there
06:16<krinn>and none will see that 1 sign except the player :)
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06:17<krinn>i didn't find a way to see all signs like openttd < 1.2 was doing (that would have help a lot)
06:17<Zuu>seeing as player or seeing as script?
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06:17<krinn>even the GS cannot see them without switching to the company
06:17<Zuu>As player, make sure you have the option 'show competitor signs' active in the settings menu.
06:18<krinn>show competitor signs <--- that's what i need, where can i find it ?
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06:18<Zuu>Same place as turning on/off details.
06:19<Zuu>and animation
06:19<Zuu>and advanced settings etc.
06:19<Zuu>from within a running game.
06:20<Zuu>I think that is design feature of GS. You tell it to act as a given company. You see what the company sees, and you operate on its porperty.
06:20<Zuu>Thoguh, yes one could argue that at diety level you should have access to everything, but having it as its now, you don't modify player things by mistake.
06:21<krinn>made us loop thru all companies to check signs, but i have loop thru only valid companies to lower the loop
06:23<Zuu>Yes, thats typically what a GS have to do, loop over companies.
06:23<krinn>made it funny to see the GSSign.GetOwner
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06:24<krinn>a bit non-sens this function if you're not seeing signs except been the company :)
06:24<Zuu>I believe the sign IDs are unique through the game, so if you store a ID you could later lookup the owner, but yea its a bit redundant as it is now.
06:25<krinn>the test are now update to works, you can check them for real usage
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06:26<krinn>we should doc the API, we have some configuration options and some functions to use (QueryCompany, QueryServer, Answer...)
06:27<krinn>the code also need comments for functions...
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06:28<Zuu>I'll continue my tests now, given that you have fixed the issue that I ran into. But I understand if not evrything is finished and I have too lookup how things work. :-)
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06:28<krinn>hi drac_boy
06:29<krinn>Zuu, and all GS handling SCP will need to doc their API too :)
06:29<drac_boy>hi krinn
06:29<Zuu>Yep, and we need to either ditch or update the wiki page. At least I added a note that it's not up to date. :-)
06:30<Zuu>But its probably a good place to some minimal examples.
06:30<krinn>the protocol.txt is update, maybe not in an easy understandable form
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06:32<drac_boy>got a little computer question tho...can you plug a usb3 drive into usb1.1/2 computer just like that or not really?
06:32<krinn>they should have rename it if not
06:33<krinn>so yes
06:33<drac_boy>hm ok thanks
06:34<drac_boy>still wonder about the protocol overhead but guess thats something better off found somewhere else heh
06:36<Zuu>A 3.0 device would need to fallback to the protocol of 1.1/2, unless USB has a special future mode embeded into 1.1 and 2.0 that adds extra overhead when using with future devices.
06:37<drac_boy>zuu hmm that sounds more reasonable now, thanks
06:44<Zuu>I wonder, as SCPLib is singleton sort of class, would it be feasible to make it so that you don't need to instanciate the SCPLib class to use it? I see that you need to store some values, so behind the sceens there need to be an instance for storage. Also I think it is better to make the callbacks take the class instance as arg too rather than imposing users to various tricks to access the "this" pointer in a callback.
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06:45<krinn>well, we could remove the instance part at cost of static variable
06:46<krinn>anything use in it must be set static or we will lost them
06:46<Zuu>yes, but they could be named such that there is no real risk of conflicting with AI/GS vars.
06:47<krinn>but maybe, we could record the context when the command is added, and send back the context when the function callback is trigger
06:50<Zuu>Hmm, I thoguh that SuperLib.Helper.CallFunction supported passing a class instance along with the function pointer to class a member function of an instance, but apparanetly not. However, I think I have seen a implementation of a class Valuate function that has this functionality.
06:53<krinn>we could just pass the class function instance already as callback, if not the this.function() is assume
06:56<krinn>AddCommand("SCPRegister", "SCPBaseSet", _SCPLib_Client.RegisterClient); is doing that per example
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07:04<krinn>you wish the callback function pass the original "this" as arguement?
07:05<Zuu>I diged up some old code that I don't know if it work anymore, but that did allow passing a function pointer and the instance of a class that the function belongs in:
07:06<Zuu>If that is not possible anymore due to restrictions in acall, then it would be possible to just pass an arg called _this or something along with message.
07:07<krinn>a func_triggered(context, message) so user could thatclass::func_triggered(context, message) and have a chance to use context.var_in_its_own_class ?
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07:07<krinn>i knew you would say yes :)
07:08<Zuu>Do I put too high demands on you? :-)
07:08<krinn>nope, but this will be done later, i need to get ready for work
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07:13<krinn>ok, i wrote down, passing this to callback and see possibilties of static anything to remove scplib instance
07:19<krinn>on my way to bath, see u
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07:23<drac_boy>so what else you doing zuu? :p
07:23<drac_boy>heh heh
07:24<Zuu>drac_boy: what else except what?
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07:28<Zuu>script communication protocol
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07:29<Zuu>drac_boy: <--- list of contributions
07:29<drac_boy>zuu that wasn't the question silly :)
07:31<drac_boy>hm the transportgoals one seem interesting...imagine that could cause very massive trains in ukrs2 tho
07:33<Zuu>If played to the extreeme yes :-)
07:33<Zuu>It uses the average over all vehicles you have, so it penaltize usage of trucks and other low capacity vehicles.
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07:36<drac_boy>hmm...still penaltize short trains or not so much?
07:37<Zuu>As all vehicles contribute to the mean, its in theory to win with just one vehicle.
07:38<Zuu>One extension would be to use at least 10 as the divisor even if there is less than 10 vehicles.
07:38<Zuu>eg. sum / max(10, num)
07:38<drac_boy>hmm ok then
07:41<Zuu>Outside of OpetTTD I've also written a traffic intersection simulation program (Junctioneer). It's not as fancy graphics wise as OpenTTD and in many senses more limited, but takes a different focus.
07:43<drac_boy>real intersections rather than these silly games that requires you to change lights between red and green without causing too long lineups?
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07:44<Zuu>and it features vehicle collisions :-)
07:44<drac_boy>heh does it randomize idiot drivers too? :P
07:44<Zuu>But it has long way to go to be anywhere near the status of professional software as eg. Vissim or Aimsun.
07:45<Zuu>It randomize some charasteristics of the drivers.
07:45<Zuu>Eg. max speed and acceleration.
07:46<drac_boy>zuu I assume it would have specific lane lights too?
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07:47<Zuu>Yes, you can even control the individual exits of one lane separtely if you like to. Eg. to have pre-green for right turn.
07:47<Zuu>One thing that is missing however, is roads with more than one lane that allow free lane changes.
07:48<drac_boy>zuu ok because these are the various things I could think of....
07:49<Zuu>The three-way intersection example bundled with it demonstrates the signalization features quite well I think. At least those that are present in 0.2 :-)
07:50<drac_boy>no turn on red ... directional greens (you know, arrow lamps) ... white slit (probably different in other countries but that means 'only bus can go now' here) ... one of any three colours flashing meaning either its off-rush period and to be treated as 4-way stop OR the system broke down into fail-fault mode ... etc
07:52<Hazzard>I need to know something that probably seems pretty simple
07:52<Hazzard>How do you increase the acceleration of a high speed road vehicle?
07:54<+michi_cc>You reduce air drag and increase power. TE is mostly irrelevant at higer speeds.
08:00<drac_boy>zuu these made sense btw?
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08:03<Zuu>directional greens are sort of already supported. PuT (public transport) signals aren't supported yet, and currently you can't put transport mode restrictions on links, but the changes needed in the pathfinder wouldn't be very hard to do.
08:05<drac_boy>zuu yeah because what I recall from the few sights of them is that these PuT otherwise avoids costly bridge/tunnel at busy points where eg the bus turns left onto a new road in far right lane to then drop off people...then it leaves to soon hit a intersection where it has to turn left...but its in the right lane of all the things
08:05<drac_boy>hence the signal to let bus start ahead of any of the cars to make its wide left turn
08:06<drac_boy>bit clever idea isn't it?
08:06<Hazzard>Thanks michi_cc
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08:07<Hazzard>Since TE is less important, does that mean Weight is also less important?
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08:31<HackaLittleBit>frosch123: hello frosch, can I talk a about fs5147
08:32<HackaLittleBit>would it not be a idea to create small svn repository to show changes?
08:33<HackaLittleBit>and keep track of suggestions.
08:34-!-Hazzard [] has quit [Quit: Page closed]
08:34<HackaLittleBit>I have basic document structure ready, but still many changes to be done.
08:35<frosch123>hmm, isn't there already some project on coop for that?
08:35<HackaLittleBit>give link pls.
08:35<frosch123> <- found it
08:37<frosch123>alternatively we could use the wiki
08:37<frosch123>i am not sure how much of a history tracking is needed
08:38<frosch123>so, a hg repo might be too much, compared to a wiki site with some images
08:43<HackaLittleBit>This weekend I'll upload the document. Most of the work was getting the structure correct. Proposed changes are not all implemented. The suggestion from albert to put loading height map in the world generator makes a lot of sense. The idea is to make changes in foto first
08:43<frosch123>planetmaker: are you available for discussion? :)
08:44<HackaLittleBit>only when layout is correct do programming
08:48<HackaLittleBit>frosch123: If you wan't I can upload now in order to have a quick look.
08:50<frosch123>no idea, what do you need? a wiki site? just some storage site for documents? or a repository?
08:50<HackaLittleBit>svn repository with commit rights.
08:50<frosch123>the coop redmine has kind of all of those three
08:51<frosch123>coop uses hg, not svn :)
08:51<HackaLittleBit>I'll check it out and come back to you :)
08:51<HackaLittleBit>duno hg
08:52<frosch123>are you registered on the devzone?
08:52<frosch123>what shall the project be named?
08:53<Zuu>Get Unified Interface?
08:53*drac_boy pokes zuu
08:54<frosch123>well, i assume you want to upload the html preview trickery. so, something like "gui design cases"? as subproject of the "openttd-gui" project?
08:54<HackaLittleBit>fine with me.
08:54<frosch123>just "gui" sounds weird as subproject of "openttd-gui" :)
08:55<HackaLittleBit>hold on pls
08:56<HackaLittleBit>'gui design tracking'
08:56<HackaLittleBit>is that better?
08:56<frosch123>i think we can also change that later on, so just "gui design" for now
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08:59<frosch123> <- if you register, i can add you as manager
08:59<HackaLittleBit>frosch123: I'll upload doc to FS now juast to have a look.
08:59<frosch123>we have to wait for some admin though to make it a subproject of openttd-gui
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09:03<Ammler>frosch123: done
09:03<frosch123>thanks :)
09:03<HackaLittleBit>Thnks Ammler
09:04<HackaLittleBit>frosch123: Uploaded doc!
09:05<frosch123>wrong task though :)
09:06<HackaLittleBit>Hu how many rights did you give me?
09:07<HackaLittleBit>pls delete in fs3826
09:07<HackaLittleBit>indeed wrong task.
09:09<HackaLittleBit>ok now it's correct task.5147
09:13<frosch123>are those all windows? :o
09:14<frosch123>all settings windows i guess
09:15<HackaLittleBit>not yet all , I think some still missing.
09:15<frosch123>i guess settings are most interesting
09:15<Zuu>I read some changes that doesn't seem to be reflected in the image.
09:17<HackaLittleBit>Zuu: I have been busy with document structure there may be inconsistencies.
09:17<HackaLittleBit>that is reason for svn
09:17<Zuu>I understand its a work in progress.
09:17<HackaLittleBit>I am loosing track of changes
09:18<HackaLittleBit>just in the beginning
09:21<@planetmaker>hm, sorry, I'm here now. What's up?
09:21<frosch123>planetmaker: all fine :)
09:22<frosch123>planetmaker: we made a new subproject to one of your existing ones ttp://
09:22<frosch123>to keep track of fs#5147 thingies
09:22<@planetmaker>ah, ok. That's nice
09:23*andythenorth may be winning at internets
09:23<andythenorth>mostly css
09:23<@planetmaker>in principle you can have also svn or git repo type on devzone. But hg repos are the default which need no admin intervention
09:23<andythenorth>no FIRS release this weekend :P
09:24<@planetmaker>HackaLittleBit: svn is a bad vcs though, if you want to supply patches
09:24<@planetmaker>patch queues that is
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09:24<frosch123>svn is more than half as old as cvs :p
09:25<@planetmaker>and hg half as old as svn?
09:25<HackaLittleBit>I have tortoisesvn installed here
09:25<frosch123>planetmaker: yes, hg is more than half as old as svn
09:26<@planetmaker>then you'll like tortoiseHG, HackaLittleBit ;-)
09:26<frosch123>and more than a quarter as old as cvs, but not yet a third
09:26<HackaLittleBit>won't that mess up my installation?
09:27<HackaLittleBit>I mean can the two live side by side?
09:28<NGC3982>im nowhere.
09:28<NGC3982>rural sweden is so odd..
09:29<HackaLittleBit>andythenorth: mostly css, still IE has problems swallowing.
09:30<HackaLittleBit>was tested in opera chrome FF ok.
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09:30<HackaLittleBit>IE does not like base64
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09:41<andythenorth>is the gui being fixed? will I like it? :o
09:42<frosch123>andythenorth: we are planning to filter grfs on starting with "f" by default
09:42<frosch123>s/grfs on/on grfs/
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09:45<HackaLittleBits>I have to go, if you have game pls send pm. regards
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09:48<andythenorth>just filter out all grfs tagged 'andythenorth'
09:49<andythenorth>makes my life much simpler
09:49<frosch123>four letter grfs might also be an idea
09:52<andythenorth>range 4:5
09:52<andythenorth>how about just rm * when filtering?
09:53*andythenorth is actually pretty happy with grf making right now
09:53<andythenorth>FIRS is less stuck
09:53<andythenorth>and the pony count is good
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10:11<BSB>Hello! When will version for Ubuntu 12.04?
10:13<@Alberth>we don't make versions for ubuntu
10:13<@Alberth>you have to ask the ubuntu developers/packages
10:14<BSB>Yes, packages
10:14<BSB>*packagers :)
10:14<@Alberth>Hmm, sorry, we do seem to make packages for ubuntu
10:14<@Alberth> lists a few
10:15<BSB>Yes, but this version gives an error when installing
10:16<@Alberth>the generic version should work, I think
10:16<@Alberth>select 'openttd-1.2.0-any'
10:17<@Alberth>then you can also pick Linux Generic Binaries
10:17<BSB>Thanks, I'll try
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13:17<Matulla>hi all is there a tutorial on how about to handel best city growings on a long running game
13:17<Matulla>for instence station have good mood and bad mood also citys how to handle that
13:24<@Alberth>there is a game mechanics wiki page, and a town growth wiki page, but we don't have a tutorial yet
13:24<@Alberth>why don't you make one?
13:24<Matulla>my english is bad and if i did know it how to handle i woudt
13:24*Alberth does not understand the obsession with town growth
13:25<@Alberth>Matulla: people that know are in a bad position to write a tutorial, as they don't know what needs to be learned
13:26<@Alberth>Matulla: and bad english is not a real problem; use a spell checker, and otherwise, people will fix mistakes
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13:36<Matulla>i will look what to do
13:36<@Alberth>ok, thanks
13:37<@Alberth>2 years old :)
13:38<Matulla>is theresomthing where i can follow the increase og this requierd points
13:38<@Alberth>lots of the things mentioned there can be implemented in NewGRFs and in Game scripts
13:39<@Alberth> ?
13:44<Matulla>road dead ends -> no suitable building site this has to be removed as from 0.6 but is not done yet
13:44<Matulla>so the town grow algorythem does not find enoph sides
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: translators * r24199 /trunk/src/lang/ (catalan.txt czech.txt hungarian.txt):
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: catalan - 4 changes by arnau
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: czech - 1 changes by Paragulis
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: hungarian - 10 changes by IPG
13:46<Matulla>Alberth: thats what im searching for ->
13:48<@Alberth>Nobody moved it to the right spot in the wiki yet :(
13:49<@Alberth>If you want a better wiki, you have to do that yourself, I am afraid
13:49<Matulla>Towns with 2x2 and 3x3 grid layout are the best WHAT DOES this mean 2x2 road 2empty road in Xy
13:50<@Alberth>2x2? that means square blocks, with road, two tiles houses, road, 2 tiles houses, etc
13:51<@Alberth>wiki needs an image, I think, can you make one?
13:51<Matulla>do i need to sighn in for a wiki change ?
13:52<Matulla>or everyboady alowed
13:52<@Alberth>it is prefered, but not required
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14:18<Matulla>Alberth: no permission
14:19<Matulla>shit 10min for nothing O.O
14:19<Matulla>you need to lock in for posting this and upload a picture
14:19<@Alberth>sorry, did not know that
14:20<Matulla>no problem i will keep up to this
14:22<Matulla>can you add the pictures ?
14:23<@Alberth>you have pictures ready?
14:26<Matulla>this brings up another question 3x3 one in the middle is free ?
14:27<Matulla>station without any use
14:27<@Alberth>not always, see eg the footbal stadium in your image
14:27<@Alberth>there are also 2x1 houses
14:27<Matulla>Bank ofcause
14:28<@Alberth>that's technically an industry :)
14:28<Matulla>Done Thanks
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14:30<Matulla>the edit has to be removed it wars generadet by default
14:30<Matulla>oh i see this has to be done in every language
14:31<Matulla>so mutch more todo
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15:25<CIA-1>OpenTTD: frosch * r24200 /trunk/src/engine.cpp: -Fix [FS#5149]: Invalidate build vehicle windows every month, in case they need resorting due to changed reliabilities.
15:26<CIA-1>OpenTTD: frosch * r24201 /trunk/src/autoreplace_cmd.cpp: -Fix [FS#5170]: Mark group list dirty when setting/clearing autoreplace for an engine type.
15:27<CIA-1>OpenTTD: frosch * r24202 /trunk/src/autoreplace_gui.cpp: -Change: Make the size of the details in the autoreplace GUI match more the size of the details in the purchase list.
15:27<CIA-1>OpenTTD: frosch * r24203 /trunk/src/build_vehicle_gui.cpp: -Fix: Make the engine name not overdraw the engine count in the autoreplace GUI.
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15:34<Zuu_>Hello krinn
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15:37<krinn>glad you're here, i think i know why you get invalid header
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17:37<@Terkhen>good night
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19:31<krinn>night all
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22:27<fisxoj>hello, just updated to 1.2 and started a LAN game, and we noticed there are only buses available, also only one type of train... Hard to find what's up in the forums
22:27<fisxoj>maybe something about newGRF's, but we don't have any enabled
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---Logclosed Sun May 06 00:01:03 2012