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#openttd IRC Logs for 2012-05-07

---Logopened Mon May 07 00:00:01 2012
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05:35<Lord_Aro>odd browser...
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05:36<LordAro>so, i messed up my debian install :)
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05:37<LordAro>fairly certain i uninstalled my graphics driver, then on fiddling around, messed up gnome and/or xorg :)
05:38<LordAro>in summary, apt-get is now doing a lot of work :D
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06:10<NGC3982>morning
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07:38<swissfan91>can anyone explain why, when creating industry sprites, a snow layer is created for each building rather than just one layer for all snow cover?
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07:39<@planetmaker>err what?
07:40<swissfan91>I'm looking at other peoples industries in .psd format, and they all have different layers, for snow etc.
07:40<@planetmaker>having snow in a separate layer makes it easy to change the building and generate again a matching snowy sprite
07:40<@planetmaker>thus you only change a detail in the non-snowy version and export it once with and once without snow
07:41<@planetmaker>it avoids that the building changes when snow falls
07:42<swissfan91>I see. There seem to many layers for snow. E.g. snow layer 1 toggles the snow on the main building. snow layer 2 toggles it on a fence, etc. Why not just have a snow layer that toggles snow on everything?
07:42<@planetmaker>again: easier to change. E.g. consider you want to remove the fence...
07:43<@planetmaker>consider sprites not as monolithic but as modular things composed of different individual parts
07:44<swissfan91>I see. Thanks!
07:45<swissfan91>also - I am drawing an alpine meadow. Obviously, I want this to be able to go over various types of sloped terrain. Do I just draw meadow sprites for all slope angles, and the coder will make it 'work'?
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08:02<@planetmaker>well. Yes.
08:04<swissfan91>in very simple terms :P
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09:04<@Belugas>hello
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09:28<Joel_A>what do you guys use for viewing .lng files? I've tried with both Notepad and Notepad++, but they show the files in a rather messy way - not at all as cleanly presented as when I view them in the repository :(
09:29<Eddi|zuHause>what lang file?
09:30<Joel_A>in this case FIRS english.lng, but I don't think it depends on the .lng file itself
09:30<Eddi|zuHause>and what's wrong with it?
09:31<Joel_A>for starters it doesn't show me two separate columns with parameters and values respectively
09:32<Eddi|zuHause>and i have to drag every single bit of information out of your nose??
09:32<Joel_A>it's all a mass of running text with a lot of weird (control?)characters added
09:33<Eddi|zuHause>then it's not FIRS lang file
09:33<Joel_A>actually, it comes through my fingers...
09:33<Joel_A>what is not FIRS lang file?
09:34<Eddi|zuHause>whichever file you are reading
09:34<Eddi|zuHause>it's not from FIRS
09:34<Joel_A>oh, so the lang file from FIRS repository isn't from FIRS?
09:35-!-Hazzard [~7b7b69a2@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has joined #openttd
09:35<Hazzard>Hi
09:35<Eddi|zuHause>whatever you opened, it's not from the firs repository
09:35<Joel_A>hello Hazzard
09:36<Joel_A>and what makes you (think you) know files downloaded from the repository isn't from the repository Eddi?
09:38<Eddi|zuHause>i'm not questioning you downloading files from FIRS repository, i'm questioning you opening the files you downloaded from FIRS repository.
09:39<FLHerne>Are you trying to open the compiled version or something? That would probably look a bit odd...
09:39<Joel_A>okay, well... I don't have a lot of other lang files lying around
09:43<Joel_A>the r2823 english lang seem to work in Notepad++ now (not in Notepad though, but that's no problem) so I don't know what was wrong earlier
09:43<Joel_A>either way, the problem is gone :)
09:44<Joel_A>thanks for your advice
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10:07<LordAro>debian unstable - a good choice for main desktop?
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10:09<Eddi|zuHause>don't use debian for anything that you touch more than twice a year
10:11<Industrial>Hi. I'm new to TTD though I did play it as a child. I'm reading http://wiki.openttd.org/Signals#Pre-signals and I was thinking; can't this illustrated problem be solved by removing the one way signals just before the station?
10:13<Industrial>i'm really looking for examples of T splits etc
10:14<Eddi|zuHause>yes, you can remove the signals before the stations, if you switch the other signal to a path signal
10:20<Industrial>http://i.imgur.com/kSopm.png Guess I have some improvement to do? ^^
10:21<NGC3982>that looks neat?
10:22<Industrial>I'm not sure if I should be creating those with bridges/tunnels
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10:22<Industrial>the T splits
10:22<NGC3982>im no pro, but i'd build a circular ring
10:23<NGC3982>so trains never change direction
10:23<Eddi|zuHause>Industrial: these are fine for low traffic
10:24<Eddi|zuHause>Industrial: but you should seriously consider using path signals everywhere
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10:34<NGC3982>Industrial: since it looks you are about to use those railway lines for traffic other then oil, i suggest making a one-way circle system. that way, you will cut the traffic down to >|50%, and with that, the ability to add more trains on the westerlum > helleldam line.
10:34<NGC3982>other then that, it looks nicer.
10:34<NGC3982>but thats just me :)
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10:47<Industrial>k :)
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10:59<andythenorth>lo
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11:00<Eddi|zuHause>you forgot an l :p
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11:18<swissfan91>can anyone point me to the station building tutorial? I can't seem to find it.
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11:20<Eddi|zuHause>tried that way? ->
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11:27<swissfan91>it could have been by Purno :S
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11:35*andythenorth plays openttd
11:36<swissfan91>this may be a stupid question but... when drawing a station tile.. how big a gap do you leave for the tracks?
11:39<andythenorth>swissfan91: http://hg.openttdcoop.org/chips/raw-file/acc62d60883d/sprites/graphics/groundtiles.png
11:39<andythenorth>^ they are FAIL with railtype newgrfs though
11:39<andythenorth>the only sane answer is to draw for the default tracks
11:39<andythenorth>this will break with railtype newgrfs
11:39<andythenorth>[shrug]
11:41<swissfan91>so, you mean it won't show the loaded rail set, always default tracks?
11:42<andythenorth>it will show the railset
11:42<andythenorth>but the railset may break your station
11:42<andythenorth>by being too wide / too narrow etc
11:43<swissfan91>so nutracks are wider than original tracks?
11:43<andythenorth>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/2844/chips_pikka_tracks.png
11:43<swissfan91>oh.
11:44<swissfan91>too narrow leading to grass showing through?
11:45<Djohaal>those are very narrow
11:47<swissfan91>from what I remember from the station tutorial, you have to draw stations in two layers, foreground and background, correct?
11:47<andythenorth>yes
11:48<swissfan91>do I do this by creating two separate sprites (e.g. in the example you just sent) or by using the layers function of a drawing program?
11:48<andythenorth>swissfan91: explore the CHIPS source if that helps http://hg.openttdcoop.org/chips/file/acc62d60883d/sprites/graphics
11:48<andythenorth>separate sprites
11:48<andythenorth>layers might help your editing
11:48<andythenorth>but makes no difference to the grf
11:49<swissfan91>ah I see.
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11:51<swissfan91>I see the CHIPS sprites are all in 4x4 sprite sheets. Are these the cargo-dependent variations?
11:52<andythenorth>yes
11:52<andythenorth>the layout is up to you
11:52<andythenorth>I just found that one convenient
11:53<swissfan91>it does seem pretty handy. IIRC, station tiles can be coded so that you can click on them to cycle through different variations?
11:54<andythenorth>yes
11:54<andythenorth>hmm
11:54<andythenorth>256x256 map, industries 'normal'
11:54<andythenorth>I have about 1 of each
11:54<andythenorth>and I'm using pikka grfs
11:54<andythenorth>in 1870
11:54<andythenorth>it's hard to build chains :P
11:55<andythenorth>due to slow expensive vehicles
11:55<andythenorth>no mines next to steel mills :P
12:00<andythenorth>hmm
12:00<andythenorth>FISH needs auto-refit :P
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12:02<Eddi|zuHause>yes, and multi-bay ships if you're at it :p
12:03<andythenorth>one is in the spec
12:03<andythenorth>one is not :P
12:03<andythenorth>fix the spec :P
12:03-!-frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-4d008886.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd
12:03<andythenorth>then maybe $someone can implement it
12:03<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: ^ see he always comes at the right moment
12:03<andythenorth>it's uncanny
12:04<andythenorth>also $someone should make a decent tram set
12:04<andythenorth>are there any?
12:07<swissfan91>Could you look at 'Basic Grey.psd' on here and see if I have the correct idea? http://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/3967
12:09<andythenorth>you need to split it into two sprites for the sprite sorter
12:09<andythenorth>otherwise yes
12:10<andythenorth>[it has to draw some in front of vehicles and some behind, so two split sprites needed]
12:10<swissfan91>indeed, when I publish the sprites anywhere, I'll split them. They're in layers within the .psd, so it will be trivial to do.
12:12<swissfan91>if I draw stations in this manner - they'll take the loaded trackset? There's nothing more annoying than station sets in OTTD that show the default rails all the time.
12:15<Eddi|zuHause>swissfan91: that's a matter of coding
12:16<swissfan91>ah, ok.
12:16<swissfan91>I don't know whether to make a TARS station set (a bit silly, but keeps the TARS thing going), or perhaps do a Swiss Station set, or even merge with DACH.
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12:17<Eddi|zuHause>what would be the difference?
12:17<Eddi|zuHause>i think you need to actually finish a set, instead of starting ever more ones...
12:18*andythenorth wonders what Pikka thinks the point of the 0-6-0 goods is
12:18<andythenorth>@seen pikka
12:18<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: pikka was last seen in #openttd 2 weeks, 6 days, 2 hours, 25 minutes, and 14 seconds ago: <Pikka> nah
12:18<andythenorth>bah
12:18<Eddi|zuHause>imho, we have Enough(tm) station sets.
12:19<andythenorth>you only need one :P
12:19<andythenorth>and I've made it :P
12:19*andythenorth adopts arrogance mode
12:20<swissfan91>yes, I know about all the sets being a bit much. The main problem is a lack of coder. Yes, I could learn it, but that's at least a job until after exams. When I get an urge to draw something, I'd rather just draw it without worrying that it isn't part of the town set, object set etc.
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12:24<swissfan91>at least I'm starting sets with some drawing content, as opposed to just starting loads of sets with just plans.
12:25<andythenorth>ach don't be put off
12:25<andythenorth>if you enjoy drawing, draw ;)
12:25<andythenorth>there's no purpose to any of this anyway
12:26<Eddi|zuHause>swissfan91: i guess the logical next step would be to copy some basic object (or house, industry, ...) code from somewhere, to get your sprites into the game without a lot of functionality.
12:26*andythenorth ponders
12:27<andythenorth>'logs' instead of 'wood' for GB translation of FIRS?
12:27<swissfan91>hmmm, well I have Wallyweb coding my objects - they're nearly v0.1.
12:27<swissfan91>for towns, yes - perhaps.
12:27<swissfan91>industries - I'm working with George for ECS.
12:28<FLHerne>andythenorth: Yes, IMO
12:28<andythenorth>it looks odd to have 'wood' and 'timber'
12:28<andythenorth>'timber' is lumber - sawn, finished wood
12:28<FLHerne>rename 'timber' then
12:29<FLHerne>:P
12:29<andythenorth>hmm
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12:29<andythenorth>why?
12:29<FLHerne>or wood even, or both...
12:29*FLHerne drifts away from reality again
12:29<andythenorth> timber is the translated version :P
12:30<andythenorth>is it wrong?
12:30<Nat_aS>morning
12:30<Eddi|zuHause>i'm not an expert, but i'd thought timber was the output of the saw mill
12:30<andythenorth>in GB english, I think so
12:31<andythenorth>so lumber (US / Canadian) was changed to timber
12:31<andythenorth>but that's wrong apparently
12:31*andythenorth is confused
12:37<andythenorth>hmm
12:38*FLHerne now thinks timber is right
12:38<andythenorth>sensible canal costs make a big difference to the gameplay
12:38<FLHerne>Lower or higher than default? I find them rather too expensive normally
12:50<swissfan91>buffer tiles are non-track tiles aren't they? train's can't run half way onto them.. ?
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13:14*andythenorth thinks the FIRS 'improved' station rating might be too generous
13:16<hackalittlebit>Is 'random seed' used only for creating map (height) or is it also used for other stuff? Like position of industries towns etc,
13:18<hackalittlebit>frosch123:
13:19<frosch123>for everything :)
13:19<frosch123>landshape, towns, industries, trees, ...
13:19<hackalittlebit>ok
13:20<hackalittlebit>everytime you open that screen new seed is given
13:20<frosch123>the seed itself is not very useful, everything (all mapgen settings, certain adv. settings, newgrf, ottd version, ..) must be the same to be sure the get the same map
13:20<hackalittlebit>do you need button to generate?
13:21<frosch123>the "rerandomize" button? hmm, maybe not :)
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13:21<hackalittlebit>agreed :) one less
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13:26<andythenorth>it's very annoying when clicking on a dock to add it as an order
13:27-!-Nat_AFK is now known as Nat_aS
13:27<andythenorth>...that if a ship is loading there, the click instead is grabbed by the ship
13:27<andythenorth>causing shared orders
13:27<andythenorth>this is new?
13:27<Nat_aS>man, starting with industries that aren't wood is hard
13:27<Nat_aS>takes forever to repay your loan
13:28<andythenorth>don't repay it
13:28<andythenorth>keep it
13:29<Nat_aS>it takes forever to earn enough money to build new lines/trains then
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13:46<CIA-1>OpenTTD: translators * r24213 /trunk/src/lang/ (11 files): (log message trimmed)
13:46<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:46<CIA-1>OpenTTD: afrikaans - 19 changes by telanus
13:46<CIA-1>OpenTTD: belarusian - 39 changes by Wowanxm
13:46<CIA-1>OpenTTD: czech - 10 changes by Paragulis
13:46<CIA-1>OpenTTD: dutch - 35 changes by habell
13:46<CIA-1>OpenTTD: german - 39 changes by planetmaker
13:47<Sacro>\o/
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13:50<@Terkhen>hello
13:50<Sacro>is a Terkhen a female Turkey?
13:50<@Terkhen>last time I checked, no
13:51<Sacro>curious *makes notes*
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13:55<frosch123>Sacro: if you use google's image search, you will notice that "terkhen" is synonymous to "openttd"
13:55<@Terkhen>there is other stuff too :P
13:55<frosch123>http://users.tt-forums.net/petert/files/ottd-pr0n.png <- true
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14:02<supermop>Hi all
14:02<@Terkhen>I hope that's not associated with my nickname in any way
14:02<@Terkhen>hi supermop
14:02<supermop>if I post some borrowed code, can someone tell me why it doesn't work?
14:02<supermop>its nml depot code
14:03<@Terkhen>depot?
14:03<supermop>to replace depot graphics depending on railtype
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14:15<Wolf01>evenink
14:18<NGC3982>frosch123: :-O
14:19<supermop>ok I posted what I am trying to work with:
14:19<supermop>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=48605&p=1014343#p1014343
14:30<supermop>can I just delete the parts that check for the other newgrfs, and just check only for the railtypes?
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15:12<Zuu>I've noticed that bin/docs/32bpp.txt is out of date. AFIK the overriding via png files is no longer possible.
15:13<frosch123>fs#5112 :)
15:13<Zuu>hmm, it did not show up when I searched for the filename in th bug tracker.
15:13<Zuu>eg. just "32bpp.txt"
15:14<frosch123>you have to check "search in comments"
15:14<Zuu>oh
15:18<supermop>anyone good with nml around?
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15:34<CIA-1>OpenTTD: frosch * r24214 /trunk/src/window.cpp: -Fix [FS#5159] (r22794): The confirmation window to abort world generation was hidden during world generation, so actually you could not abort it.
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16:09<drac_boy>hi
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16:29<Wolf01>'night all
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16:29<cypher>Panove, potrebuju nekoho na dust2 spectnout hrace travas cze
16:30<cypher>Wrong room, sry.
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17:03<@Yexo>supermop: I'm around now. If you had asked your real question I could have answered it.
17:08<frosch123>Yexo: he posted on the forums
17:13<@Terkhen>good night
17:15<CIA-1>OpenTTD: frosch * r24215 /trunk/src/lang/ (czech.txt luxembourgish.txt polish.txt): -Fix: Translations.
17:15<amelia>nn Terkhen
17:21<frosch123>is there any volunteer to check all scenarios on bananas whether they are completely broken due to removed/changed newgrfs, so we can delete them?
17:21<frosch123>they start to annoy me :s
17:25<@Yexo>write a tool that marks all scenarios where any newgrfs have been changed?
17:26<@Yexo>perhaps also all scenarios with only firs/ecs newgrfs without any other (so no vehicles)
17:26<@Yexo>shouldn't that find the biggest part of the broken ones?
17:26<frosch123>likely :)
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17:30<frosch123>night
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17:49<supermop>Hi, yes I put it up on the forum,
17:49<supermop>I can't understand why it doesn't work with nutracks
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18:12<TrueBrain>miep miep
18:12<TrueBrain>ZOEF
18:12<amelia>?
18:12<TrueBrain>!
18:12<amelia>!!
18:13<TrueBrain>now you are just spamming
18:13<amelia>You started it.. I am just an innocent caught in the crossfire :P
18:14<TrueBrain>excuses!
18:14<amelia>never!
18:14<TrueBrain>so you admit? :D
18:15<amelia>Nevar!!
18:15<TrueBrain>Surrender, or I will call a duel on you!
18:15<TrueBrain>my train against yours
18:15<TrueBrain>would be the worst game of chicken
18:15<TrueBrain>might not be the best idea :D
18:15<amelia>You wouldn't dare, Patric! My train comes with over 9000 carriages! Never has a platform handled my entire set!
18:16<TrueBrain>OVER 9000?!
18:16<TrueBrain>I have a special card for that .. ah, here it is: 42!
18:16<TrueBrain>ha
18:16<TrueBrain>now all your carriages are pidgons
18:16*amelia :O
18:16<Eddi|zuHause>amelia: you can only have 250 axles on german (and presumably most other european) tracks
18:17<TrueBrain>says who?
18:17<amelia>Eddi|zuHause: they're very long carriages with few axles :)
18:17<TrueBrain>nothing money can't fix
18:17<amelia>TrueBrain: I have a special card for THAT.... my Zero Wing card!
18:17<amelia>All your trains are belong to me!
18:17<TrueBrain>dammit .... told you it would be the worst game of chicken!
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18:18<Eddi|zuHause>amelia: you can't even all your base someone correctly... you fail.
18:18<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause: this is our battle
18:18<TrueBrain>bugger off :P
18:18<TrueBrain><3 Eddi|zuHause
18:18<TrueBrain>j/k
18:19<amelia>Eddi|zuHause: shush. you have no chance to survive make your time.
18:19<Eddi|zuHause>it would be "all your train are belong to us!!"
18:20<amelia>it would, except it's my card, so they now belong to me.. I'd say us, but I really have been trying to keep my other personality at bay ;)
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18:22<TrueBrain>pompiedom
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18:23<amelia>Poppadom?
18:23<TrueBrain>correct reply is: lalala
18:26<TrueBrain>waiting for a download to finish ...
18:26<TrueBrain>disk full
18:26<TrueBrain>well, then I can wait for ever
18:26<TrueBrain>*sigh*
18:26<TrueBrain>does it show I am bored? Hmm
18:27<amelia>Indeed
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18:31<Eddi|zuHause>dubdidu
18:32<Hazzard>Hi
18:32<TrueBrain>hello
18:35<Eddi|zuHause>funnily, if you google for "pompiedom lalala", then #openttd logs are one of the first results
18:36<Eddi|zuHause>if you skip all the dutch results
18:37<TrueBrain>I do appoligize for that :D
18:37<Eddi|zuHause>no actual explanation what it means comes up though...
18:38<TrueBrain>honestly, I have no clue either :P
18:38<TrueBrain>to me it is like a marco polo ...
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18:42<Eddi|zuHause>if you google for "palim palim", then the first result is the wikipedia page about it...
18:44<TrueBrain>why would I google that?
18:47<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause: your post is funny ;) Factories are part of classes .. or objects rather, but meh :P
18:47<TrueBrain>so I don't get how you don't get it :D
18:47-!-supermop [~daniel_er@cpe-67-250-2-219.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: supermop]
18:47<TrueBrain>other options are stuff like: this->GetInteger(), this->GetShort(), etc
18:48<Eddi|zuHause>yes. the second part is a later stage of thinking than the first part :p
18:48<TrueBrain>where it fetches from a bitstream
18:48<TrueBrain>but I think via templates it is much nicer
18:48<TrueBrain>we have shown with Squirrel that we can do it with templates
18:49<TrueBrain>but it is kinda intrusive on the current way of doing, so .. will need to make a proof-of-concept etc, and see what others think
18:49<TrueBrain>for sure would improve the readability of commands, as atm ... all the bitpacking .. ugh
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18:52<TrueBrain>but yeah, that was basically what I had in mind ;)
18:52<Eddi|zuHause>some of the bitstuffing is already offloaded into helper functions
18:57<TrueBrain>how I see it, it is just bookkeeping
18:58<TrueBrain>and for that you need a class, so the network knows how many bits/bytes to send
18:58<TrueBrain>;)
18:58<TrueBrain>force BE over network (as networks are BE)
18:58<TrueBrain>and it should be done :P
19:01<TrueBrain>then again, I might be wrong :D
19:01<TrueBrain>anyway, night all
19:03<Eddi|zuHause>how is BE/LE relevant? should just be the same everywhere
19:03<Eddi|zuHause>probably should use the same as in savegames, as the conversion functions for that could be reused
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22:10<nicfer>hi everyone
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22:45<jnxa>What are the things that are counted towards "Other" in the Finances window? I have no HQ.
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---Logclosed Tue May 08 00:00:09 2012