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#openttd IRC Logs for 2012-05-08

---Logopened Tue May 08 00:00:10 2012
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01:01<@planetmaker>jnxa: you always pay 300 / month as 'general administrative expense'
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03:34<dihedral>greetings :-)
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05:19<hackalittlebit>planetmaker: what time is frosch123 around normally?
05:20<hackalittlebit>need to discuss flat maps
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05:23<@planetmaker>evening hours
05:24<@planetmaker>but... laying out ideas etc in the forum usually is a good idea.
05:24<@planetmaker>it's then something one base a discussion on. And... more eyes = more ideas = better result
05:25<hackalittlebit>If you have heightmap with same color it will give you flat map
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05:25<@planetmaker>quite so
05:25<hackalittlebit>Is that legal?
05:25<hackalittlebit>I mean to start game?
05:26<@planetmaker>I'm sure you don't mean legal :-) But what's wrong with a flat map?
05:26<hackalittlebit>well it would make construction very easy
05:26<@planetmaker>if you define "I want flat map", the result "flat map" is desired
05:27<hackalittlebit>for me fine, but is this not cheating in a ay
05:27<@planetmaker>if you define "mountainous map" via a non-uniform heightmap, a mountainous map is desired
05:27<@planetmaker>It's not cheating. It's defining easy starting conditions
05:27<hackalittlebit>hold on I'll need some testing
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05:33<hackalittlebits>panetmaker: options for Terrain Type. Very flat, flat, hilly, Mountainous
05:33<hackalittlebits>very flat still gives some height difference
05:34<hackalittlebits>what about option extra
05:34<hackalittlebits>like pancake
05:34<hackalittlebits>to get totally flat terrain
05:36<hackalittlebits>or do 'very flat' and no height diff
05:36<Eddi|zuHause>hackalittlebits: what difference does it make?
05:36<hackalittlebits>it is allowed when loading height map or scenario editor
05:37<Eddi|zuHause>we seriously have more pressing problems...
05:38<hackalittlebits>when you are able to make it in scenario editor and loading height map it should be allowen when just making new game
05:38<Eddi|zuHause>why do we need 3 ways to do the same thing, then?
05:39<hackalittlebits>ok eddy not realy important I know, thanks forget it.
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06:15<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause, it would make sense to offer that for 'new game'. But indeed that's a problem I didn't consider to be one
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06:40<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: just put a "flat land" heightmap on bananas?
06:40<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause, no need really
06:41<@planetmaker>The SE generates it by default
06:42<Eddi|zuHause>SE needs a way to select which of the usual map generation processes (towns, industries, rivers) should be run after creating/modifying the landscape
06:44<Eddi|zuHause>"opening of berlin airport delayed" ... who'd've thunk?
06:44<@planetmaker>sunk? thought? shrunk? :-P
06:46<Eddi|zuHause>'d+have+thunk+it.html <- it's in the dictionary, it must be correct :)
06:47<@planetmaker>like "it's in the internet, thus it exists"? :-) Interesting, though
06:52<Hazzard>Hmm..thats interesting. I think it is an abreviation of "thought of"
06:54<Eddi|zuHause>it's a more or less deliberate misuse of grammar
06:55<Hazzard>It still makes more sence when you replace thunk with 'thought of' instead of 'thought'
06:55<Hazzard>I have heard it quite a bit though
06:58<Eddi|zuHause>Hazzard: the "of" doesn't make any sense...
06:59<Hazzard>I guess it depends how you use it
07:01<Eddi|zuHause>Hazzard: anyway, simply leaving out words doesn't make it an abbreviation
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08:24<V453000>hi, what was the command to kill an AI company on the server please?
08:25<V453000>oh got it
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08:54<Ammler>it's not "oh got it"
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09:23<@planetmaker>yes... hello
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09:23<@planetmaker>@topic get -3
09:23<@DorpsGek>planetmaker: Don't ask to ask, just ask
09:23<@planetmaker>^^ lestat :-)
09:24<@planetmaker>but welcome :-)
09:24<lestat>anyone can help me?
09:24<@planetmaker>not yet
09:25<@planetmaker>no one knows more than that you have an unspecified problem.
09:25<lestat>There is a new chart that allows all types of trains on the same rail that if the speed limit 31kh
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09:26<@planetmaker>you can set a speed limits in the train's order window
09:26<lestat>I can not remember the name, anyone knows?
09:26<@planetmaker>if I haven't answered your question, I don't know what you ask :-)
09:28<lestat>sorry I'm using the google translator and alo better lost in the translation
09:28<lestat>nadie habla algo de español?
09:29<@planetmaker>If you're asking for a railtype which all train vehicles drive on: That NewGRF is called "universal rail" or similar
09:29<lestat>yes universa rail
09:29<@planetmaker>it's available from in-game online content
09:30<@planetmaker>but of course it'll only be available, if you start a new game and selected it in the NewGRF settings before generating the map
09:30<@planetmaker>thus, you cannot add it to an existing game
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09:45<lestat>attempts to enter the server to see if they can get new players
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10:03<dihedral>lestat, all other spanish servers are "YES_AIR"?
10:04<Hazzard>I have discovered a tiny insignificant bug that no one cares about in the titlegame of 1.2
10:04<dihedral>Hazzard, what is it?
10:05<Hazzard>When the short diesel livestock/grain train crosses the yellow suspension bridge, the trees just after the bridge momentarily disapear
10:05<Hazzard>as the train goes by
10:06<Hazzard>It may vary which trains cause it
10:06<dihedral>that'll make someone happy to hear about
10:06<Hazzard>but for some it doesn't happen
10:06<Hazzard>just saw an airplane crash in the titlegame
10:08<Hazzard>An empty diesel iron or maybe wood train also seems to cause it
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10:09<Hazzard>The double-headed diesel train that comes after the ultra long diesal coal train
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10:09<Hazzard>and the livestock train that comes after that one
10:09<lestat>please try to enter the server to see if you can
10:09<Hazzard>Maybe it is random
10:11<Hazzard>lestat: Nope, it has some really old GRFs that appear to not be avaliable through the online content
10:12<Hazzard>my bad, pretend I didn't say that last line
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10:14<Hazzard>Nvm, I just clicked the wrong button. The grfs are avaliable
10:14<Hazzard>I didn't have any trouble joining
10:19<Hazzard>@wiki curve length speed
10:20-!-Hazzard was kicked from #openttd by DorpsGek [Wrong channel. Retry in #openttdcoop.]
10:20<dihedral><lestat> please try to enter the server to see if you can <- stop advertising, we know its there ;-)
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10:24<@planetmaker>haha, hazzard
10:25<TrueBrain>the script is rather efficient and very accurate :D
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10:28<Hazzard>Sorry for my derpyness
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12:07<nicfer>is there a hotkey for station/depot direction selection?
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12:16<frosch123> <- Eddi|zuHause: you should claim your rights wrt.
12:19<Eddi|zuHause>nicfer: the elements of the rail/road/whatever toolbar can be reached with the 1-9 keys
12:20<Eddi|zuHause>nicfer: the directions can currently not be changed with keys
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13:07<andythenorth>should I be drawing coal mines?
13:07<andythenorth>ISA's has kind of inspired me :P
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13:13<Nat_aS>FIRS needs a coal chain
13:13<@Alberth>inspiration is always good
13:13<andythenorth>Nat_aS: what do you suggest for that chain?
13:13<Nat_aS>send it to powerplants for easy money, or to steel mills for improved production
13:13<Nat_aS>maybe some other industries
13:13<Nat_aS>not sure
13:13<Nat_aS>but those are the oubvious uses of coal
13:14<Zuu>A coal chain with unusual low payments so that players that blindly go for coal get into trouble :-)
13:14*andythenorth is a bit confused
13:14<Nat_aS>Hmm, make coal a really low density cargo
13:14<Nat_aS>so it needs huge trains to earn a profit
13:15<Nat_aS>andythenorth, Zuu was making fun of how easy money coal is in normal games.
13:15<Nat_aS>I always play tropical though, so wood is my easy money
13:15*andythenorth might do something else for a bit
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13:19<@Terkhen>coal is easy money, you can dump it at a steel mill too, no need gameplay-wise for a power plant :)
13:23<Rienzilla>is there a way to configure an openttd to make time go slower?
13:24<Rienzilla>(so the technological advancements won come as quickly?)
13:24<frosch123>you can play while paused :)
13:25<Rienzilla>well thatÅs not what i mean
13:25<Rienzilla>if I play for a night on a game, then a friend also in that game is running on steam engines when I have maglev :)
13:25<frosch123>there are various "daylength" patches, but they have various trouble
13:26<Zuu>Or you can play at year 50000(?), then you will keep the same year through the entire game.
13:26<Zuu>Or use game cheats to set time back a few times during the game.
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13:29<Nat_aS>just disable engine expiring
13:29<Nat_aS>and intrest
13:29<Nat_aS>i mean inflation
13:30<Nat_aS>Disreguard years, aquire trains.
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13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: translators * r24216 /trunk/src/lang/ (7 files): (log message trimmed)
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: belarusian - 1 changes by KorneySan
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: croatian - 39 changes by VoyagerOne
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: czech - 40 changes by Eskymak
13:46<CIA-1>OpenTTD: dutch - 4 changes by habell
13:46<CIA-1>OpenTTD: lithuanian - 39 changes by Stabilitronas
13:51<andythenorth>only 151 commits left until FIRS 3K :o
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13:51*andythenorth might catch up with openttd
13:51<andythenorth>[if he does small enough commits] :P
13:53<@Alberth>merge everything into one repository :p
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13:57<andythenorth>Alberth: update the translation
13:57<andythenorth>one string at a time
13:57<andythenorth>more commits :P
14:00<frosch123>you might catch up in number of revisions
14:00<frosch123>but you will not catch up in number of missing translations :p
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14:02<andythenorth>a challenge
14:02<andythenorth>what if I combine FIRS with CHIPS, HEQS and FISH?
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14:25<@Alberth>but firs dutch translation is up-to-date :p
14:26<andythenorth>I could abusively change some strings :P
14:26<andythenorth>I need another input cargo for the iron works
14:26<andythenorth>it has iron ore and wood
14:26<andythenorth>this is a balancing issue against the steel works
14:26<andythenorth>sand? [for casting]
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14:26<@Alberth>scrap metal?
14:28<@Alberth>combining all sets will make nml take a day or so to build :p
14:28<andythenorth>scrap metal is plausible, but not very interesting
14:29<@Alberth>sand could be fun, and is not totally impossible :)
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14:29*Alberth likes sand pits
14:31*andythenorth will try it
14:33<supermop>haha, you'd be hard pressed to justify using much sand
14:34<andythenorth>I know
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14:34<andythenorth>2t metal per 8t sand seems overkill
14:34<andythenorth>but I need game balance :P
14:34<supermop>also, why can't the paper mill use plant fibers?
14:35<supermop>oooh also:
14:35<andythenorth>paper mill has 3 cargos already
14:35<supermop>in tropical situations the name of sugar beet could change to sugar cane, but otherwise stay the same as now?
14:36<andythenorth>supermop tried the grf? :
14:36<supermop>playing a game with 0.7.4 lately
14:36<andythenorth>casting metal uses 3 to 6 tons of foundry sand per 1t metal produced
14:36<andythenorth>that's interesting
14:37<supermop>can't they re use it?
14:37<andythenorth>they can to some extent
14:37<andythenorth>it degrades
14:37<supermop>i had used chills pack so much that this is the first time i've played with a new-ish firs
14:38<supermop>im using regular trains, and the manley morel, dash, and 125 all default to having the heads carry fruit
14:39<andythenorth>that's interesting
14:39<supermop>just noticed after 20 years of running horrible commuter services
14:39<andythenorth>raise a FIRS bug?
14:39<andythenorth>I have no idea why or what can be done to fix that :)
14:39<supermop>as with the original DMUs i limit unpowered cars to 1 or 2 per MU set to keep HP up
14:40<supermop>so would have a train of A-B-A-A-B-A (a is dmu head, b is passenger car), that could only carry 80 people
14:41<andythenorth>I've no idea why they do that instead of PAX
14:42<@Alberth>you can stack fruit to the ceiling and on top of the engine :p
14:42<supermop>me neither, never had that problem with 2cc etc so i am inclined to think its a default vehicle problem
14:42<andythenorth>supermop: I can't replicate it
14:42<andythenorth>Alberth: can you replicate that?
14:42<andythenorth>of if you're busy, np
14:42*Alberth looks for an openttd
14:43<supermop>I actually feel that every thing should refit to everything - I can carry suitcases full of coal onto a flight if i really wanted to
14:43<supermop>i cant remember if its original trains or ogfx+
14:43<supermop>i'll check tonight
14:43<MNIM>fun fact: during the blockade of berlin in the cold war coal was flown in through the air
14:44<@Alberth>oh, some idiot dev changed all strings in the settings window, this is going to take a while :p
14:44<supermop>might be + because the ic 125 cars take on special livery to match the locomotives
14:49<andythenorth>my gut says this idea of 'sand for iron works' might be wrong
14:49<andythenorth>but the gearing down on the metal chain is insane in early games
14:50<andythenorth>8t ore + 8t wood = 8t metal
14:50<andythenorth>8t metal = 2.5t ENSP, 2.5t FMSP (with rounding losses or gains for hex maths)
14:50<@Alberth>andythenorth: yes
14:51<andythenorth>yes it's insane? or yes you replicated the bug? :)
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14:52<@Alberth>sand for iron works is quite a stretch, I agree :)
14:53<andythenorth>the fruit is opengfx+ trains related?
14:55*andythenorth reverts sand at iron works
14:55<@Alberth>without the ogfx+trains it has passengers
14:55<andythenorth>same here
14:55<andythenorth>opengfx+ trains bug
14:55<@Alberth>2 commits without doing anything ! ;)
14:55<andythenorth> bug / feature
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14:57<andythenorth>maybe the forge should just be more efficient
14:57<andythenorth>8t per 8t instead of 5t per 8t
14:58<@Alberth>shall I report it?
15:03<@Alberth>supermop, andythenorth:
15:09*andythenorth considers increasing production with pax deliveries :P
15:09<andythenorth>can't be done really
15:09<andythenorth>frosch123: could industry tiles produce? I know it's insane and will be abused...but...?
15:10<supermop>i was thinking about oil rigs - production should go down with passengers, as the workers would get too distracted with a ferry load of visitors on the platform
15:11<supermop>sorry if i am distracting you with silly ideas
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15:15*andythenorth wonders what third cargo the Iron Works could accept
15:17<@Alberth>it's a difficult question
15:17<@Alberth>2 input cargoes not enough?
15:17<andythenorth>one option is to delete that industry
15:18<andythenorth>I always like that option ;)
15:19<Eddi|zuHause>close the industry after steel mills become available
15:19<andythenorth>that's part of the plan :)
15:20<@Alberth>so less useful is not so bad, imho
15:20<andythenorth>option 2: no change
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15:20<Eddi|zuHause>just close it, no other changes
15:21<andythenorth>k done deal
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15:26<supermop>there should be a bit of an overlap or transition though
15:27<supermop>i would have said that the iron works is easier to use, at the expense of being more inefficient
15:27<andythenorth>I will (1) make this closure an additional parameter
15:27<supermop>so later in game you are incentivised to use the steel mill as you get more out of it
15:27<andythenorth>(2) check that a steel works exists on the map
15:28<andythenorth>(3) closure will be a random chance, not absolute
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15:47<supermop>i wish industry tiles were more like fields
15:49<supermop>so the core of the industry might have a few non essential surrounding tiles that could be built over at high cost
15:52<@Alberth>don't you like the challenges that the game throws at you? :)
15:55<andythenorth>there's a spec from frosch for plantable tiles
15:56<frosch123>the first approach failed due to bridges and such :)
15:57<supermop>i do like challenges, but i also like cute little industrial trains driving right up inside the industry
15:57<supermop>so a steel mill could be the same as now, but would buy some extra space around it
15:58<supermop>and if you want to build on those tiles, it costs dearly
15:59<frosch123>you should make a scenario where the whole map is a single steel mill :p
15:59<frosch123>and then transport stuff within it
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16:00<frosch123>kind of anti-cidini
16:00<supermop>these as a railtype:
16:01*andythenorth has considered a steel mill grf before :P
16:01<andythenorth>also logging
16:01<andythenorth>and mining :P
16:01<andythenorth>steel industry needs:
16:02<supermop>certainly could be fun
16:02<andythenorth>- coal, coke, charcoal
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16:02<andythenorth>- scrap metal, iron ore
16:02<andythenorth>- limestone, other chemicals
16:02<andythenorth>- casting sand, clay
16:02<andythenorth>it produces molten metal, slag, and foundry waste
16:03<supermop>sand is for a foundry, not the blast furnace
16:03<andythenorth>which are turned into [not sure] - finished metal, slag cement, other products
16:04<andythenorth>pig iron blooms are (were) cast in sand
16:04<andythenorth>a logging grf would feature:
16:04<andythenorth>- tree length logs, sawn logs, pulpwood
16:04<andythenorth>- stone, sand (roadbuilding)
16:05<andythenorth>- fuel, engineering supplies
16:05<andythenorth>- silviculture supplies (seeds, fertiliiser)
16:05<supermop>could Firs have a logging camp as a precursor to the planted forest?
16:05<andythenorth>- paper, sawn timber, board, wood chip fuel
16:06<andythenorth>supermop: would it use the 'cut trees' mechanic?
16:06<supermop>ie small cheap site that destroys nearby trees
16:06<andythenorth>no, I dislike the current implementation of that mechanic
16:06<andythenorth>it sucks :)
16:06<supermop>so you could get accidentally clear cut industrial england
16:06<andythenorth>I think frosch123 has a spec change that would fix it iirc
16:06<supermop>how so?
16:07<andythenorth>can't find the link :P
16:07<supermop>i think the idea of risking over exploitation is interesting
16:08<supermop>that or if you destroy trees as you build a railway, have them show up as production at a forest or logging camp if one is nearby
16:08<supermop>kind of silly
16:09<supermop>and you could exploit the tree cheat doubly with it
16:09<supermop>build camp near town, cut all of town's trees, replant, repeat
16:09<supermop>boost production will keeping rating steady
16:10<andythenorth>UKRS 2 is so dense
16:10<andythenorth>I need a slower game :P
16:10<supermop>i want a medium
16:11<supermop>something like original trains with just a few more
16:11<supermop>and EMUs
16:11<supermop>pacers too
16:12<supermop>also original style train sets for japan, alpine, continent
16:13<supermop>i never play with the original american trains
16:13<supermop>do arctic and tropic have the same vehicles?
16:14<supermop>hmm still no one has replied in my thread
16:18<supermop>andythenorth: why don't you also allow heqs trams to work on narrow/minimum gauge if present, sort of like the mog
16:18<andythenorth>never thought of that
16:22<supermop>could create nice looking dock railways then
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16:41<supermop>can someone please take a look at the grf I am having trouble with?
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17:07<Someus>Hi guys :)
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17:09<Someus>I just can`t figure out that signal thing
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17:13<@Terkhen>good night
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17:33<Someus>Is there offline openttd tutorial?
17:34<Someus>Or is there a way to convert wiki to offline content?
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17:37<supermop>you could print out the pages i guess
17:37<Someus>How? :)
17:37<Someus>Oh do you mean File > Print?
17:38<supermop>might waste a lot of ink and paper, or you could print to pdf
17:38<Someus>Well i have no option to print to pdf :/
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17:41<swissfan91>Does anyone have a sprite template for station tiles?
17:42<supermop>no, would have helped me
17:43<swissfan91>what set did you need it for?
17:44<supermop>well mlss is a station set
17:44<supermop>i just sort of made it up
17:44<swissfan91>ah, I see. Did you code that set too?
17:44<supermop>yeah, but i barely knew how
17:44<supermop>i really need a coding partner
17:45<swissfan91>it seems to be coded ok.
17:45<supermop>the first iterations were done just with one huge pcx file
17:46<supermop>later i used a separate small png for each tile type
17:47<swissfan91>oh, I see.
17:47<swissfan91>Do you have any time for coding other projects atm? :P
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17:49<supermop>no time to code or draw my own even
17:49<supermop>plus its almost summer, and summer in new york is sort of magical
17:50<swissfan91>ah, well it's worth asking!
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17:52<supermop>i think you'd want someone with a basic understanding of code - for me it's like groping around in the dark
17:52<supermop>Someus: everyone is happier, tons of free stuff going on, drinking beers on rooftops
17:53<supermop>take the subway to the beach
17:53<supermop>riding bikes all over
17:53<Someus>What do you mean by tons of reen stuff?
17:54<supermop>staying in your 300 square foot brick apartment with no air conditioning to work on a computer takes a lower priority
17:54<supermop>free concerts, events, lectures, film screenings
17:54<supermop>just hanging out in parks
17:56<Someus>Listen, can i get back money when destroing my things in openttd?
17:57<Someus>like undo thing :)
17:57<supermop>only tracks
17:57<supermop>and only for the scrap value of the rail
17:59<Someus>Can you tell me - is it important to build depo often?
17:59<supermop>do you play with breakdowns on?
18:01<Someus>How can i check?
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18:07<Someus>How can i remove signal?
18:09<Eddi|zuHause>Someus: press "R"
18:10<Someus>Thanks! :)
18:16<Someus>Is it enough with one Depo?
18:17<supermop>usually, unless trains need to service along the route
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18:21<Eddi|zuHause>Someus: when you have breakdowns enabled (difficulty settings), you should have each train pass next to a depot on their usual journeys. if you have them disabled, it won't really matter, unless you want to autoreplace
18:21<swissfan91>can anyone think of any platforms that would be a 'must' for a Swiss Station set?
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18:23<Eddi|zuHause>swissfan91: usually you'd want some generic platforms, and various non-track station buildings to go with them
18:24<swissfan91>Eddi - indeed.
18:25<swissfan91>My first priority are low-level platforms. I think OTTD could do with some of them.
18:25<supermop>just draw high and low, then draw other stuff on top of those
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18:27<swissfan91>WRT that picture - would it be possible to draw a grey catenary girder above the island platform to create the illusion of a double catenary pylon of that nature?
18:29<supermop>imagine the roof of the default station
18:29<swissfan91>hmmmm - that's something to think about.
18:29<supermop>just draw that part to look like a gantry
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19:13<Someus>I don`t get that signal mechanic :/
19:16<Someus>what signals are mostly used?
19:18<@planetmaker>that's a question like "what marmelade is eaten most" :-)
19:18<@planetmaker>Depends on what you need and want
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19:20<Someus>Your wiki states: Fortunately, two of these six signal types can be used over 95% of the time
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19:25<xiong>Someus, Ignore the first four signal types. You need standard path signals almost all of the time and one-way path in a few cases.
19:26<xiong>The first four signal types are antecedent and playing styles developed around them before path-based signaling was available. Therefore you will run into a certain number of old guards: the same people who insist on vinyl records and vacuum-tube amplifiers.
19:27<xiong>Also, in some situations, it hardly matters which kind of signal you use. But there are enough other cases that you need to figure it out.
19:28<xiong>Ah, if you haven't already noticed, there are only six types, functionally. The other six are the same, but with a semaphore visual. That's the only difference.
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19:46<xiong>Well, I guess that was either insufficient or excessive.
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---Logclosed Wed May 09 00:00:12 2012