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#openttd IRC Logs for 2012-05-09

---Logopened Wed May 09 00:00:12 2012
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01:52<andythenorth>^ not that ottd is about money :P
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04:36<Dwarden>hi everyone, question what installer is used by openttd, is it reusable for other projects?
04:36*NGC3982 ircs in the bath tub
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04:38<TinoDidriksen>Dwarden, it's probably NSIS
04:43<Dwarden>oh really?
04:44<Dwarden>is the script somewhere to study?
04:44<Dwarden>i know it, i mean the script used by openTTD
04:45<Dwarden>looking just for specific portion
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04:45<TinoDidriksen>Oh, maybe somewhere in the source repo.
04:45<Dwarden>aka hows done the download
04:45<TinoDidriksen>The NSIS page also has lots of examples, including downloading.
04:45<Dwarden>of openMSX/openSFX/openGFX
04:47<TinoDidriksen>Using the nsisdl::download command.
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04:50<Dwarden>hmm thanks, will check it out
04:50<Dwarden>tho script from openttd would be still welcome sample ;)
04:51<Dwarden>ah so that's the NSIDll http plugin
04:55<CornishPasty>Man, this was so hard to find, Dwarden:
04:57<Dwarden>thanks Cornishpasty a lot, i feel like nub now , wish i knew it's in trac
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05:49<TELK>Excuse me, is the connection of well?
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06:39<Ammler>Rubidium: /home/abuild/rpmbuild/BUILD/openttd-1.2.0/config.lib: line 2872: [: 4.: integer expression expected
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06:52<Eddi|zuHause>is that how swiss people spell that?
06:52<@planetmaker>Ammler: that line has been unchanged for 3000 revs...
06:52<Ammler>planetmaker: it might depend on the icu
06:53<@planetmaker>that's likely
06:53<Ammler>it's no big issue, icu is deteced, why I don't make a fs post
06:53<@planetmaker>so you might want to tell us about your ICU version and the output which is (unsuccessfully) tried to parse
06:53<@planetmaker>well. DO make an FS entry
06:54<@planetmaker>with the above info
06:54<@planetmaker>icu version and the output you get
06:54<@planetmaker>the info you provide is... rather little more than 'I get an error'
06:55<Ammler>build:~> icu-config --version
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06:55<@planetmaker>well, please do make an FS entry
06:56<Ammler>looks rather like a bug in suse icu
06:56<@planetmaker>that I don't know
06:56<Hazzard>How does the titlegame work?
06:57<@planetmaker>but probably it should read 4.9.1 instead of 49.1
06:57<Ammler>well it is how the .so is called so.49
06:57<@planetmaker>is that stable suse or the 'tubleweed' dev version?
06:58<Ammler>12.1 is 4.6.1
06:58<Ammler>tumbleweed is not dev
06:59<@planetmaker>so it's nothing released but buggy icu?
06:59<Ammler>tumbleweed is just a collection of some dev snapshot repos
06:59<Ammler>like openttd nightly
07:00<@planetmaker>so the question is: is icu version info broken or is it changed on purpose?
07:00<Ammler>or should openttd be able to handle such version change?
07:00<@planetmaker>not, if it's a bug
07:01<Ammler>well, 49.1 is still a valid version string
07:02<Ammler>but as said, icu is still detected
07:02<@planetmaker>is is. but it's different format than the existing 4.6.2 or so
07:02<@planetmaker>Ammler: with ICU the exact version is very important. It's one of those libraries which changes its ABI.
07:03<@planetmaker>and again the question: Is ICU broken or is it a general change which we'll find in the next stable release?
07:03<Ammler>I know, it is one the libs, which mostly breaks building packages which have regression tests
07:06<Ammler>as it does not break building, I will wait with fs until the error apears also on stable distro
07:09<@planetmaker>you should report the error to at least one, openttd or libicu. I think icu should not change its version info output
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07:17<@planetmaker>seems that they DO want to change their versioning
07:20<Ammler>ok, you still want me to create a fs or will you "take over"? :-)
07:28<@planetmaker>ty, Ammler
07:30<@planetmaker>Ammler: could you try the attached diff I posted?
07:35<Ammler>hmm, the sense on this is to use both on 49
07:35<Ammler>that is why they changed it
07:35<Eddi|zuHause><Hazzard> How does the titlegame work? <-- it's a normal savegame that has been renamed to opntitle.dat
07:36<Ammler>icu 4 is not compatible with icu 49
07:36<Ammler>that is more like icu 5 if you want just one
07:39<@planetmaker>Ammler: that's why OpenTTD checks for the version number. Or you say we need to differ (for our purposes) between the versions > 3.6 ?
07:39<@planetmaker>(dunno, probably there are #ifdefs somewhere in the code)
07:39<Hazzard>Eddi|zuHause: So it just runs in the background?
07:39<Eddi|zuHause>Hazzard: yes
07:41<Ammler>planetmaker: if I read it right, openttd does already merge 4.6 to 46
07:41<@planetmaker>that it does, yes
07:41<Ammler>so the new versioning is what openttd wants/needs
07:41<@planetmaker>yes. And my patch ensures that it ends up there in all cases
07:41<@planetmaker>or so I hope :-)
07:41<Ammler>ok :-)
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07:49<Ammler>planetmaker: it does not work with version 100.2.3
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07:50<Ammler>but well, that might not be needed :-P
07:50<@planetmaker>it won't work with 100.2.3
07:50<@planetmaker>I know :-)
07:52<Ammler>planetmaker: be also aware that this "fix" needs to be backported
07:52<@planetmaker>should be no issue
07:53<Rubidium>IIRC ICU came with the great idea some time not so long ago to just drop the dots from their version numbers
07:53<Rubidium>because 4.9 is harder to comprehend than 49
07:54<Rubidium>especially since each version is binary INcompatible with another version
07:54<@planetmaker>yeah. should I just commit that fix to the version detection, Rubidium? We should be safe till ICU 100 ;-)
07:55<Ammler>I guess, they also want to avoid 4 version parts
07:56<@planetmaker>should be unaffected by the current version detection for ICU, Ammler
07:56<Ammler>yeah, just meant could be a reason for the change
07:57<Ammler>since 2nd part already made it incompatible no need to split it
07:57<@planetmaker>we should then release openttd 121 next ;-)
07:58<Ammler>no issue, as long as it is > as 1
07:59<Ammler>just use the svn rev :-P
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08:11<Fiky>im new here
08:11<Ammler>im old here
08:11<Markk>I'm just here.
08:11<__ln__>i've always been here
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08:12<Ammler>he, and welcome Fiky :-)
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08:21<@planetmaker>I like the conversation, though
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08:47<swissfan91>does anyone have any idea how to 1) draw glass properly in OTTD and 2) how to draw it WRT being able to see the train though it in a station tile
08:47<Someus>Hi! Is there a faster way to upgrade trains to newer?
08:49<Hazzard>Someus: IN the vehicle list click on the dropdown menu and press "replace vehicles"
08:50<Someus>Do i need to take them to depot?
08:51<Someus>Yep i found it
08:51<Hazzard>Yes, but that can be done through sceduled servicing. Here is a short wiki page about it:
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08:52<Someus>Does it take a lot of time to replace them?
08:52<Someus>I pressed replace and now i am waiting :)
08:53<Hazzard>It takes as long a normal maintence does
08:54<Someus>I pressed but nothing happens :/
08:55<Someus>I sent them all to depot
08:55<Someus>And pressed replace
08:55<Someus>No activity
08:55<Hazzard>Did you choose which vehicles to be replaced in the replace vehicles popup?
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08:58<Someus>Yes i have 13 UU'37 vehicles
08:59<Hazzard> will probably help
08:59<Someus>I press start vehicle replacing
08:59<Someus>And waiting
08:59<Someus>Nothing happens
09:00<Someus>Trains don`t seem to replace
09:01<Someus>I found this in wiki: Your vehicles will not all be sent to depots for replacement as soon as you click Start Replacing Vehicles. Instead, they will be replaced during their next regular servicing in a depot.
09:01<Eddi|zuHause>they need to pass a depot when their service interval runs out
09:03<Hazzard>Are you sure you chose the correct vehicle types you want to be replacing?
09:03<Eddi|zuHause>and are you sure you set it for all vehicles, not only for one group of vehicles?
09:04<Eddi|zuHause>and are you sure they actually find a depot?
09:04<Someus>As wiki stated: They don`t change immediately
09:05<Someus>They changed successfuly!
09:07<Eddi|zuHause>you can send them to depot manually, if you are that impatient
09:08<Someus>it worked
09:09<Someus>My trains keep blowing up opponents buses :) haha
09:13<Hazzard>That's actually one problem with multiplayer
09:27<Someus>How can I get better rating?
09:27<Someus>I can`t make it better
09:29<Hazzard> has some info about that
09:30<Hazzard>Might be the RV crashes
09:30<Hazzard>Those are a big minus for station ratings
09:31<Someus>AI's always has outstanding ratings :/ :D
09:32<Someus>Is it important to build station near as possible to city center or resources?
09:32<Hazzard>Doesn't matter for industries
09:32<Hazzard>but if you are in the center of a city, there are going to be a lot more passengers, which can be good or bad
09:35<Hazzard>Your station might be closer to the RV crashes
09:37<Someus>RV crashes?
09:39<Hazzard>Road vehicle
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09:51<Eddi|zuHause> <- evil :p
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10:03<Someus>How can i dig water? :)
10:04<Someus>I guess i can`t dig it in middle
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12:23<Eddi|zuHause>someone needs to get up on this Envisat and press Ctrl+Alt+Del to reboot it...
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12:59<andythenorth>lo Terkhen
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13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: translators * r24217 /trunk/src/lang/belarusian.txt:
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: belarusian - 1 changes by Wowanxm
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14:37<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r24218 /trunk/src/lang/croatian.txt: -Fix: unbreak Croatian language
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14:45<supermop>how's it going?
14:46<frosch123>?gniog ti s'woh
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15:02<supermop>hey planetmaker; could the fenced land object in ogfx have a random variety of trees rather than just one pine?
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15:11<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r24219 /trunk/src/vehicle.cpp: -Fix [FS#5152]: immediately do the cargo payment on vehicle crashes instead of when they are cleared
15:13<CIA-1>OpenTTD: planetmaker * r24220 /trunk/config.lib: -Change: Adopt ICU version detection to also deal with the new versioning scheme since ICU 49
15:13<@planetmaker>supermop: yes, it could
15:14<@planetmaker>and tbh, it should
15:14<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r24221 /trunk/src/network/network_server.cpp: -Fix [FS#5166]: Lag counters were not properly reset when switching states making it possible to get disconnected for lagging when you weren't lagging
15:16<supermop>i think both are good
15:17<supermop>a grid of pines looks like a typical planted/reforested area,
15:17<supermop>and wild trees looks like a preserved area
15:17<@planetmaker>oh, you mean the placement.
15:17<@planetmaker>yes, both is feasible. Just possibly a lot more work
15:18<supermop>i dont mid one view being all regular pines, and the other being different trees
15:18<@planetmaker>as it needs to take care of the slopes and the the placement. Thus 19 * trees * randomess of placement
15:18<supermop>i like using the fenced land as nature preserve, to contain wild town growth
15:18<@planetmaker>luckily grf v8 and related newgrf features make some things there (much) easier. Still :-)
15:19<@planetmaker>My idea actually is to offer 4 versions of it: empty, random trees, and maybe one or two tree kinds which are like a plantation
15:19<supermop>i am guessing it is way to much to ask for tree'd land to simply buy the land while leaving whatever happens to be there
15:20<@planetmaker>that's actually not feasible
15:24<supermop>that was more of a dream about habing cake and eating it too
15:25<supermop>the idea being that buying up pristine forest hurts your rating, but not as much as cutting the trees outright
15:25<supermop>however, you receive a tiny boost to your rating as long as you keep the trees uncut
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15:47<Someus>IS there a znc on this network?
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15:50<Someus>Maybe someone offering?
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16:07<@planetmaker>Someus: several people use it on their own servers
16:07<@planetmaker>for their own private use usually only, though
16:17<Someus>don`t agree
16:21<Wolf01> anyone?
16:28<@planetmaker>Someus: you may or may not agree. But for sure people here do.
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16:40<Someus>You don't know what people do
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16:40<Someus>Are you OpenTTD developer?
16:43<@Belugas>i sure do believe he is
16:44<@Belugas>as would confirm the contat page of openttd
16:46<Someus>What's new in next release?
16:46<Someus>What is nightly ?
16:47<@Belugas>new stuff and bug fixes
16:47<@Belugas>something that is running every night (when it does)
16:48<Someus>i mean you have nightly release
16:49<@Belugas>so you know the answwer:)
16:50<FLHerne>...which is released most nights, and so contains the absolutely most recent features (am I stating the obvious?)
16:50<@Belugas>you do well :)
16:51<Someus>I don`t like graphics on zoom
16:51<Someus>Are you up to fix it?
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16:54<Wolf01>'night all
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16:54<FLHerne>Someus: People are working on it, yes:
16:55<Someus>nice :)
16:56<FLHerne>Actually, there's a complete subforum for it:
16:57<Someus>Are there ideas about new vehicle types?
16:57<FLHerne>That's what NewGRFs are for :P
16:57<FLHerne> ...
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16:58<Someus>I don't know much about them
16:59<Someus>Can you suggest me NewGRF ?
16:59<FLHerne>I use rather a lot. Try looking at the screenshots subforum for examples of good ones (you could even look at mine :D )
16:59<Someus>Show me
17:00<Someus>I've been playing this game a very little
17:00<FLHerne>Assuming you can use a forum, just find it from the links I already posted :P
17:00<Someus>And i like it despite today's offered mmo games
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17:00<Someus>FLHerne just give me link to yours
17:02<@planetmaker> you don't link to newgrfs... you better just use the ingame content download and look at them
17:03<@planetmaker>enable "vehicles never expire" and start a game in the year > 2050 and you'll usually see all vehicles which a vehicle newgrf can offer
17:03<FLHerne> is the screenshots section. It has examples of most NewGRFs in action.
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17:05<FLHerne>Which are good or not is subjective. What I consider interesting is probably not the same for you.
17:05<FLHerne>Just try a variety and see what you like...
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17:09<Someus>FLHerne just try
17:10<FLHerne>Indeed. Probably look at the forum to find out what things are before trying to download everything :P
17:11<Someus>i'am not an expert
17:12<Chris_Booth>no download everything!
17:12<FLHerne>In OTTD, general use of the Internet, or both?
17:12<Chris_Booth>then load it all on one 2048^2 map!
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17:12<supermop>gsah i had something to tell andy
17:13<FLHerne>Chris_Booth: Several people reported bugs on the forum after doing just that :-(
17:13<Chris_Booth>Epic fail
17:13<Chris_Booth>FLHerne: maybe Bananas should come with an idiot disclaimer XD
17:14*FLHerne remembers a quote about underetimating the ability of complete fools
17:14<FLHerne>s/etimating/estimating , even
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17:30<HackaLittleBit>frosch123:Land generator and variety distribution, I consider more advanced, what more do you consider 'advanced'? fs5147
17:30<HackaLittleBit>snow line?
17:31<frosch123>tree algorithm and rivers
17:31<HackaLittleBit>should only be visible when you choose arctic climate
17:31<frosch123>and road vehicle side
17:31<frosch123>nothing you want to change every day
17:31<frosch123>well, road vehicle side is easy to understand
17:31<frosch123>but who cares about tree algorithm :)
17:32<frosch123>variety distribution and landgen type are hard to understand
17:32<HackaLittleBit>I just foud out today
17:32<frosch123>and river count is actually quite useless, since the amount of rivers depends a lot more on smoothness :p
17:32<frosch123>map edges might also be advanced
17:33<frosch123>not sure about snow line, might be non-advanced
17:34<HackaLittleBit>I do think you should leave those things, It is nice to tinker with and if you do not like the map , just delete it :)
17:34<HackaLittleBit>only tree algorithem should disapear
17:35<HackaLittleBit>who gives a sh..
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17:36<supermop>trees should be grouped by species
17:37<supermop>at least there should be different restrictions on different types
17:38<HackaLittleBit>supermop: Only today I found out that 'variety distribution' was not for trees :)
17:39<HackaLittleBit>but grouping by species is highly desired here
17:39<HackaLittleBit>or according to height
17:44<@Terkhen>good night
17:45<HackaLittleBit>frosch123: What about renaming 'Terrain type' in 'Terrain' and adding two more options. 1 Totally Flat and 2 From Heightmap. Eliminat 2 buttons on top
17:46<frosch123>i think heightmap should be separate
17:46<frosch123>it's very different from the other things
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17:46<frosch123>more like a scenario
17:47<frosch123>totally flat is fine for se
17:47<frosch123>but personally i don't like it for new games
17:47<frosch123>i want to force players to play on interesting maps :p
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17:48<HackaLittleBit>I tested a bit and I cant see so many difference between 'Flat' and 'Very flat'
17:49<HackaLittleBit>I think one should be enough
17:49<frosch123>the problem with the map settings is, that they depend a lot on each other
17:49<frosch123>so the difference of flat and very flat depends on climate, variety, smoothness, and maybe even more
17:50<frosch123>e.g. tropic is generally flat, while artic is generally hilly
17:50<frosch123>very smooth is generally more flat
17:50<frosch123>and high variety distribution is also likely to be very flat in parts
17:50<HackaLittleBit>Yeah I saw that in the wiki
17:51<HackaLittleBit>So that is why cutting more options is difficult
17:52<frosch123>i don't think more options within a dropdown are an issue
17:52<Someus>I can't wait for 32-bit graphics
17:52<frosch123>but dropdowns which are hard to get the meaning of are :)
17:52<HackaLittleBit>That is next discussion
17:53<HackaLittleBit>first layout
17:53<frosch123>Someus: easy to get used to. many people are waiting for them for like 6 years
17:54<HackaLittleBit>frosch123:What I proposed is technically feasable, without to much hassle?
17:54<frosch123>what do you mean specifically?
17:54<frosch123>the hiding of widgets depending on the selection of others?
17:55<HackaLittleBit>well hiding options, changing screen size on the fly
17:55<frosch123>we have such stuff in the orders window
17:55<frosch123>so, yes, changing size and expanding stuff is no problem
17:56<HackaLittleBit>But do you agree with layout?
17:56<HackaLittleBit>Can't do much more there
17:57<HackaLittleBit>or you have to specifically ask
17:58<Someus>Hmmm.. are there any other type of transport? :)
17:58<frosch123>my main concern is that there should be some room for advanced settings, which are hidden
17:58<Someus>We have plaines, buses, trains, ships, what else we have?
17:58<frosch123>making everything visible to the new user seems too much
17:58<frosch123>Someus: trams, various other train types
17:59<HackaLittleBit>ok, I have to think
17:59<frosch123>Someus: so, you might have narrow gauge, or metro, ...
18:00<frosch123>heqs are also different from other trucks
18:01<HackaLittleBit>frosch123: would it be possible with advanced button to show up more items on the screen?
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18:02<frosch123>sure, it's technically the same as hiding single comboboxes
18:02<frosch123>or like the general window shading we have
18:02<HackaLittleBit>ok I'll come back to you
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18:12<Someus>We need 32-bit graphics :))))
18:12<Someus>My eyes hurt acutally :/
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18:40<@planetmaker>Someus: we have them. Partially. And we need people who draw and model and code them!
18:41<Someus>are there?
18:41<Someus>those people?
18:42<Someus>It would be great to play 32bit graphics
18:42<Someus>awesome :)
18:47<Someus>How do you draw them?
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18:52<Someus>Adobe Photoshop?
18:52<TinoDidriksen>Any way you like...
18:52<Someus>I have no idea how to draw them :)
18:53<Someus>It would be easier with hand
18:53<Someus>pencil and paper :))))
18:59<Someus>quite a time 6 years :))))
19:00<@planetmaker>then do that. And then scan it.
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19:06<Someus>What do you need to draw?
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19:09<@planetmaker>What do you miss?
19:10<@planetmaker>Which sprites have no 32bpp version and which you want to have one? ;-)
19:10<Someus>Well you know the answer about sprites :)
19:10<Someus>I don`t know which have no 32bpp version
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19:12<Someus>Did you code yourself?
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---Logclosed Thu May 10 00:00:15 2012