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#openttd IRC Logs for 2012-05-13

---Logopened Sun May 13 00:00:24 2012
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00:26<Abydos>Hey can anyone help me out? I'm fairly new to openttd and I just download Chill's patch pack and I'm trying to get FIRS to work with it but it's not showing up in the list of grfs.
00:29<@planetmaker>Yup. ChillPP is too old to allow the new(er) FIRS versions to run on it
00:30<Abydos>Yeah, that's what it looked like.
00:30<Abydos>I just got it to recognize FIRS 6.4; is that the newest version it'll use?
00:30<Abydos>Oh wait, 7.0
00:34<@planetmaker>there's not even FIRS 1.0 yet ;-)
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02:05<CIA-1>OpenTTD: rubidium * r24241 /trunk/src/lang/english.txt: -Fix: some typos and inconsistencies in the base language
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04:50<@Yexo>good morning
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05:01<Rienzilla>moin moin
05:02<@Alberth>Yexo: did you see my multi-line patch in the language file?
05:02<@Alberth>I wonder what you think of it
05:02<@Yexo>not yet, will look at it later today
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05:10<@Alberth>I am trying to enhance the interface towards translators. I wrote the '' program that gives better output than the current 'check_language' that people use. is example output.
05:10<@Alberth>There are two other problems creating false positives in the output. One is that some strings are not translatable; ie "{STRING}" or "" or "1923" :) . Currently there is no way to express 'no need to translate this string' in nml.
05:11<@Alberth>The other problem is that change revisions are used to indicate up-to-date-ness. If a string in the master file gets modified that does not require a change in the translation, you cannot say 'this string is correct w.r.t. the master entry'.
05:13<@Alberth>Yexo: more in general, how do you feel about making the language files better usable for translation? Should it be part of nml, or should it get done in another program / system?
05:15<@Alberth>the latter problem may be solved better in such a system, perhaps. (At least I don't see an easy way to express it in nml other than messing with revision numbers in the file itself.
05:21<@Yexo>sorry, no time to discuss, I'm on the phone right now
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05:25<@Alberth>no problem, my main goal was to give you this information, so you can think about it :)
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05:25<@Alberth>o/ andy!
05:26*andythenorth has been ordering lego parts from Croatia
05:26<@Alberth>did you already decide how to build your new beast?
05:27<andythenorth>need parts to prototype with
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05:28<@Alberth>an early frosch, welcome :)
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05:29<frosch123>moin :)
05:40<TWerkhoven> 7t7t7tt 76t fvkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkvvkvjl;
05:40<frosch123>don't put your cat on the keyboard
05:41<__ln__>not the dog either
05:42<TWerkhoven>3yo daughter?
05:43<__ln__>that's ok i suppose
05:51<@Yexo>Alberth: one thing I've wanted for a long time is a webinterface for translations like
05:52<@Yexo>that webinterface could completely replace the "string needs updating' part of the "check_language" scripts
05:52<valhallasw>TWerkhoven: you're already teaching her how to play ttd?
05:52<@Alberth>Yexo: I like that too :)
05:53<@Yexo>unfortunately I lack the time/will to set that up myself within any reasonable timeframe
05:53<@Alberth>I have made a few baby steps in that direction, but I don't know anything about www :)
05:53<@Alberth>TB suggested to use REST framework underneath it, which makes a lot of sense
05:54<@Yexo>I don't know anything about that
05:54<@Yexo>in any case: NML itself is not the right place to determine whether a string needs updating
05:55<@Alberth>basically, you don't have state in the session, you just do query/response
05:55<@Yexo>if a (more-or-less) foolproof script can be written it can become part of the nml repro, but not part of nmlc itself
05:56<@Alberth>I agree the latter problem should not be in the translation file
05:56<@Yexo>I wouldn't like to modify the language files too much, as currently they resemble the openttd language files and if possible I'd like to keep it that way as much as possible
05:56<@Alberth>what about the 'non-translatable' problem?
05:57<@Alberth>that's much more static information
05:57<TWerkhoven>valhallasw: she likes seeing me play it, though every time she wants to drive the train
05:57<@Yexo>is there a problem with adding it to all translations? That's what openttd does
05:57<@Yexo>it's redundant information, but for the final grf size it doesn't matter
05:58<@Alberth>that would be a solution I guess, except you duplicate information with the consistency problems that come with it
05:58<@Alberth>ie I would not add it
05:59<@Yexo>so that case would need an addition to the language file structure
05:59<@Alberth>andy said grfcodec uses #@@translate on and #@@translate off to denote a group of untranslatable strings
06:00<@Alberth>I am not sure I like it, as it breaks the concept of one line contains everything
06:01<@Alberth>@STR_WHATEVER : ... would be an alternative, but not sure it is much better :)
06:01<@Yexo>I was thinking along the lines of "!STR_NON_TRANSLATABLE :1923", or "STR_ABC =1923" (with = instead of : )
06:01<@Alberth>better :)
06:01<valhallasw>TWerkhoven: :D awesome
06:03<@Alberth>andythenorth: ^ what do you think of this proposal?
06:03<@Yexo><Alberth> Yexo: did you see my multi-line patch in the language file? <- was that referring to #3960
06:04<@Alberth> nope
06:04<@Alberth>but if you want to be openttd compatible, it won't fly
06:05<@Yexo>I'm not sure about that one
06:06<@Yexo>does it offer a benefit over an editor with line wrapping?
06:06<@Alberth>you have sane formatting, ie break the line at 'logical' points
06:07<@Yexo>I'm also afraid it'll be confusing for new users as the newline they see is not actually in the newgrf file (as opposed to {} to force a newline)
06:07<@Alberth>good point
06:08<@Alberth>you may need to have a 'display the string in-game' thingie for those users
06:08<@Yexo>now if the newline could replace {} that'd be something different, but in that case you can't start a line with whitespace (you need one space to indicate it's a continuation, so either force one space or don't allow whitespace there)
06:08<@Alberth>you'd end up with \<newline> then, I think
06:08<@Yexo>I think this problem too boils down to: we need good interface to edit translations, not just via text files
06:09<@Alberth>this is not only translations but the master file too, but yeah, editing language files basically sucks for translating
06:11<@Alberth>ok, thanks for explaining
06:11<andythenorth>yexo is back :)
06:12<@Yexo>just today, tomorrow till Friday I'll be in Warsaw
06:12<@Alberth>another question, did you consider encoding real sprites in a distributed fashion? iirc that is one of the bottle-necks of nml, and andy has good experiences with it in pixa
06:13<@Yexo>it's indeed one of the bottle-necks, although I don't think it's as big a problem as it was before
06:13<@Yexo>I haven't yet considered it
06:13<@Yexo>I like the idea, but again no time to implement it anytime soon
06:14<@Yexo>I should first squash a few bugs that have popped up over the last few weeks
06:14<@Alberth>you're too busy :)
06:14<@Yexo>last few weeks: yes
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07:02<CornishPasty>pew pew, laser trucks
07:03<andythenorth>how big should trucks be?
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07:04<@Alberth>anything wrong with the size of existing trucks?
07:05<@Alberth>for the few times I use them, I find the default ones quite nice
07:05<andythenorth>too big
07:05<andythenorth>pikka wanted me to make insanely small trucks
07:05<andythenorth>about that I am not convinced
07:06<@Alberth>based on RL arguments?
07:06<andythenorth>based on fitting with UKRS and NARS
07:06<andythenorth>and HEQS
07:06<CornishPasty>And WTFS
07:06<andythenorth>that too
07:06<@Alberth>HEQS makes little sense imho
07:06*andythenorth hasn't released WTFS yet
07:07<@Alberth>don't know how big HEQS trucks are, but imho a regular truck should be bigger than a special truck (or faster)
07:08<@Alberth>otherwise I simply use HEQS all over the place
07:08<@Alberth>we need road-types? :)
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07:34<opa>whats that symbol below the vehicle number in vehicle list?
07:36<opa>is it possible to change the default parameters of conditional orders?
07:43<frosch123>that symbol indicates the profit
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08:58<frosch123>"Linux Khedron 3.2.0-2-amd64 #1 SMP Sun Apr 15 16:47:38 UTC 2012 x86_64 GNU/Linux" <- does that line tell me which distribution is used?
08:58<frosch123>i.e. does "gnu/linux" hint for debian, or is that more common?
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09:03<@Alberth>I'd say it is more common, ie any distribution that is friendly enough to Gnu :)
09:03<@Alberth>and distributions like ubuntu probably copy it verbatim
09:05<@Alberth>maybe you can find the used kernel package by the time stamp :p
09:06<@Alberth>Linux localhost.localdomain 3.3.4-3.fc16.x86_64 #1 SMP Thu May 3 14:46:44 UTC 2012 x86_64 x86_64 x86_64 GNU/Linux <-- that's mine
09:06<FLHerne>My Kubuntu also says GNU/Linux, also says Ubuntu though :P
09:07<@Alberth>FLHerne: same time stamp too?
09:08<Rubidium>frosch123: you could google the build time and decude it version from that
09:10<Rubidium>from that I'd say: Debian Wheezy (last update between 10th of May and 18th of April) or SID (last update beteen 15th of April and 30th of April), version 3.2.15-1
09:10<frosch123>ok, the first five hits say debian
09:10<frosch123>so, does debian wheezy properly install the ai compatibility scripts?
09:10<frosch123>i have no "installed" ottd :)
09:11<FLHerne>Alberth: no, Thu Mar 8 20:45:39
09:14<Rubidium>frosch123: for me it says 0.7 API compatability layer in effect
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09:14<Rubidium>and the compat scripts seem to be there
09:14<frosch123>well, then i have no idea about fs#5186 :)
09:20<Rubidium>what version of the AI is used?
09:20<frosch123>simpleai 6
09:21<frosch123>the current one from bananas
09:21<frosch123>it works fine for me
09:21<frosch123>loads 1.0 compatibliity thingie properly
09:23<Rubidium>works with the debian packages for me as well
09:24<Rubidium>might the user just have copied the executable and a language file from the tar?
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09:30<frosch123>is there any relation between you? :)
09:30<Wolfie>No >:C
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09:35<Wolfie>Anyway my job for the day was gonna be to play with QueryStringBaseWindow
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09:37<frosch123> <- what composes that list?
09:43<frosch123> <- oh, it is part of openttd-data package
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11:42<goodie>Hi, I'm using openTTD v1.2.0 and I have some problems. Is openTTD able to save changes in "Game Options" menu? For example, if I'll try to change screen resolution, this might working only till next start of the game. For example, if I'll try to change screen resolution, this might working only till next start of the game. (sorry for bad english)
11:43<@Yexo>yes, those settings are saved in openttd.cfg
11:48<goodie>Yexo: thanks :)
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13:01<Eddi|zuHause>goodie: make sure openttd.cfg or the directory it is in is not write protected
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13:03<goodie>Eddi|zuHause: thank you for responding :) I've solved this problem by creating blank file openttd.cfg. It works! :)
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13:10<Wolfie>Alright. If I just map WidgetIDs to array indexes now, I should be good.
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13:12<@Alberth>GetWidget<>() ?
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13:17<Wolfie>Um, not quite, I need to give each editbox a sequential number, I suppose.
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13:42<Wolfie>Oh my god I'm an idiot.
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: translators * r24242 /trunk/src/lang/ (8 files): (log message trimmed)
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: belarusian - 109 changes by Wowanxm
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: catalan - 18 changes by mtormo
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: english_US - 7 changes by Rubidium
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: finnish - 60 changes by jpx_
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: french - 120 changes by OliTTD, glx
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13:55<Wolfie>Whoo, 24242.
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14:24<andythenorth>openttd[83384:1adb] *** __NSAutoreleaseNoPool(): Object 0x11e1c6510 of class NSCFArray autoreleased with no pool in place - just leaking
14:24<andythenorth>how rare
14:24<andythenorth>a hard crash on map gen
14:24<@Alberth>wrong random number :)
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14:38<andythenorth>how do I call make in a path (not pwd)
14:38<andythenorth>e.g. ./src/pixel_generator/make
14:39<@Alberth>make -C src/pixel_generator ? (does cd src/pixel_generator ; make )
14:40<andythenorth>-C is what? context?
14:41<@Alberth>an option name :p
14:41<@Alberth>see make(1) :p
14:41<andythenorth>man make has nothing on it here :P
14:41<andythenorth>it works is the main thing
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14:43<@Alberth> my man-page gives no explanation for 'C' :)
14:45<andythenorth>I need to tell nmlc to write nfo, and *stop* whining that the pngs aren't there
14:45<andythenorth>as I can't generate the pngs as deps without being able to parse the nfo to get them as deps :P
14:45<Wolfie>nmlc -stfu
14:45<Wolfie>if that's not the param, it should be
14:46<@Alberth>that are 4 optionss :)
14:47<andythenorth>what does nml's dep generator do?
14:47<andythenorth>I tried it before but couldn't get it to do anything but error :P
14:47<@Alberth>nml does not have a dep generator afaik
14:47<andythenorth>-M ?
14:47<@Alberth>oh, yeah, perhaps it has now
14:47<andythenorth>also --MF and --MT
14:48<andythenorth>I would expect it to write the png names out from that so make can see them
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14:48<andythenorth>which if it works, means I don't need to parse deps myself so much
14:48<@Alberth>tias? :)
14:49<@Alberth>otherwise parse the error messages :p
14:49<andythenorth>worked this time
14:49<andythenorth>-M just works
14:50<andythenorth>I tried --MF and --MT before, but couldn't figure them out
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15:01<CIA-1>OpenTTD: alberth * r24243 /trunk/src/lang/english.txt: -Fix: Typo fixes and wording improvements in the base language.
15:02<andythenorth>nml is awesome
15:02<andythenorth>Yexo: ^ ;)
15:02<@Yexo>thanks :)
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15:27<NGC3982>i have so much of mml to discover.
15:27<andythenorth>and town stuff
15:27<NGC3982>i have yet to achieve something greater than making a lorry.
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15:31<@Alberth>that's one lorry more than I have made :)
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15:31<@Yexo>Alberth: can you commit #3960 btw?
15:32<@Yexo>or do I need to move you from "Inactive" back to "developer" first?
15:32<@Alberth>feel free to commit
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15:33<@Alberth>I may not even have the patch any more :p
15:33<@Yexo>you should be able to commit patches yourself
15:33<@Yexo>in that case I'll commit it :)
15:35<@Alberth>I have no intention of making changes in nml, other than 'by accident'
15:35<@Alberth>I have too many other projects already :)
15:35<@Alberth>I did notice the amount of docs is much better nowadays, though :)
15:36<@Yexo>still lacking in several areas, but you did motivate me to write more comments
15:36<@Alberth>how do language files in nml and openttd compare
15:37<@Alberth>are they the same?
15:37<@Alberth>nice :)
15:37<@Yexo>with a few minor differences, not all string codes from openttd are supported by nml
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15:38<@Yexo>and support for cases might be a bit less good, but part of that is due to limitations in the newgrf spec
15:38<@Alberth> I started writing random ramblings on a translation service
15:39<@Alberth>I might do some hacking on parsing language files, and nml seems the simplest starting point in that case
15:40<@Yexo>I think the part of nml that parses the language files is one of the worst documented parts
15:40<@Alberth>although I failed on understanding the plural problem posted in the nml thread today :p
15:41<@Alberth>yeah it is, but that's to be expected
15:41<andythenorth>Alberth: I'm reading lines from a dep file with python, I need to ignore (split) the newlines, how do I do that safely
15:41<@Alberth>it is very stable :)
15:41<andythenorth>e.g 'trailer-0_2-body_flat-cc1-7_8-cargo_coils-grey_metal.png\n'
15:41<@Yexo>it was ported from strgen, which is part of openttd and has been tested for a long time
15:41<andythenorth>will nml always write '\n' for newlines when generating deps?
15:42<andythenorth>or is it platform specific?
15:42<@Yexo>andythenorth: to trim any whitespace use .strip()
15:42<@Alberth>or .rstrip() if you only want the right part stripped
15:43<@Alberth>and it is always \n if you open a file in text-mode at the right platform :)
15:43<andythenorth>I didn't know strip took out newlines :)
15:43<@Alberth>it's whitespace :)
15:43<andythenorth>I may have code running on the internets that is slightly wrong due to that :P
15:43<andythenorth>hey ho
15:44<@Alberth>you're not the only person, I can assure you :)
15:46*NGC3982 stimulerar SmatZ
15:57<andythenorth>I'm using a shell script to build BANDIT, because it takes 18 seconds from scratch
15:58<andythenorth>but I need to maintain the makefile to match what the shell script does
15:58<andythenorth>not sure how
15:58<andythenorth>the makefile takes 40s to build
15:59<andythenorth>so I don't want to use it locally
15:59<andythenorth>but it's required for the compile farm
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16:01<@Alberth>run the shell script from the makefile?
16:03<andythenorth>but that breaks me away from the makefile framework
16:03<andythenorth>I think
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16:06<andythenorth>planetmaker: what will the devzone do with a non-standard makefile?
16:06<andythenorth>does it 'just work' ?
16:07<andythenorth>hmm, I give myself a big headache though, I have to provide all the targets
16:07<andythenorth>and build the docs and such
16:18<andythenorth>maybe I can just run the shell script
16:18<andythenorth>it will cause the grf to be built twice
16:18<andythenorth>but meh
16:20<andythenorth>can't call the shell script from make
16:22<CornishPasty>Why, andythenorth?
16:22<andythenorth>invalid syntax
16:23<@Yexo>that's the script? where is the makefile and error message?
16:23<CornishPasty>andythenorth: you should use `#!/usr/bin/env bash` btw :P
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16:24<@Alberth>#!/bin/sh is sufficient, often :)
16:24<CornishPasty>Alberth: that's suggesting that /bin/sh exists :P
16:24<CornishPasty>(Which it normally does)
16:25<@Alberth>yeah for the past 30 years or so
16:25<@Alberth>just like /usr/bin/env :p
16:25<CornishPasty>I tend to use zsh for everything now
16:25<CornishPasty>I just like env :P
16:25<@Alberth>me too
16:26<andythenorth> && nmlc -M bandit.nml \
16:26<andythenorth> ^
16:26<andythenorth>SyntaxError: invalid syntax
16:26<CornishPasty>andythenorth: don't use \ then :P
16:26<CornishPasty>Put it all on one line
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16:27<CornishPasty>Also seems like it's not really using bash
16:27<@Alberth>andythenorth: python ???
16:27<andythenorth>good idea
16:27<CornishPasty>andythenorth: /usr/bin/env python :P
16:28<@Alberth>use autotools :p
16:28<CornishPasty>Go away Alberth
16:28*CornishPasty makes cross sign at the devil that is autotools
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16:29<andythenorth>maybe it's time for a new makefil
16:30<andythenorth>why do we use make?
16:30<CornishPasty>Because derp
16:31<andythenorth>well obviously
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16:32<andythenorth>but why make instead of a shell script, python file etc?
16:34<andythenorth>ach nvm
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16:44<andythenorth>how do I make this work in python? :P
16:44<andythenorth>call(["nmlc, -M, ../../bandit.nml"])
16:44<andythenorth>or rather, this
16:44<andythenorth>nmlc -M ../../bandit.nml
16:45<@Yexo>["nmlc", "-M", "../../bandit.nml"])
16:45<andythenorth>it's the path that is troubling me, I should be more specific :P
16:46<andythenorth>nmlc doesn't much like the ../../
16:46<@Yexo>depending on your current directory, that shouldn't be a problem
16:46<Wolfie>nmlc always allowed me to descend directories like that.
16:46<andythenorth>nmlc: Input file "../../bandit.nml" does not exist
16:47<@Yexo>which directory are you currently in?
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16:47<andythenorth>relative to bandit.nml
16:47<@Yexo>and bandit.nml does really exist?
16:47<@Yexo>does it work from the commandline?
16:47<andythenorth>I would have wasted hours before checking that :P
16:47<Wolfie>Yeah, that's my first inclination.
16:47<@Yexo>the current directory matters btw, not the directory where the script is
16:48<@Yexo>so if the python script is in src/pixel_generator/ but you call it like "python src/pixel_generator/" you should use "bandit.nml" as path, not "../../bandit.nml"
16:48<andythenorth>hmm, now I have brain ache
16:48<andythenorth>bandit.nml won't exist until the main script has run
16:48<andythenorth>but the main script can't run without calling the pixel generator
16:49<andythenorth>and the pixel generator needs bandit.nml to generate the deps :P
16:49<andythenorth>I need to fix that :)
16:49<@Yexo>that can't work :)
16:49<andythenorth>indeed :)
16:49<andythenorth>I shall fix it
16:50<@Yexo>the dependency files generated by nmlc won't be complete btw, since it'll only list the generated png files are dependency
16:50<@Yexo>not the source files needed to generate those pngs
16:50<andythenorth>that's ok
16:50<andythenorth>that's how the pixel generator is rigged
16:50<andythenorth>it looks only at what final png is required by the grf
16:50<andythenorth>then works backwards
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16:53<krinn>Zuu (ping)
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16:59<andythenorth>Yexo: so using the "../../bandit.nml" path, nmlc can't see the lang file
16:59<andythenorth>Default language file "lang/english.lng" doesn't exist
16:59<andythenorth>which is no surprise to me, but is there a solution?
16:59<Zuu>pong (@ krinn)
16:59<@Yexo>yes, the --lang-dir commandline option
17:00<@Yexo>check nmlc --help to get the exact name
17:00<CornishPasty>andythenorth: os.chdir maybe?
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17:03<andythenorth>when hacking together your own build scripts, it's easy to get tied up in knots :P
17:03<andythenorth>circular deps are trivial to create, hard to unpick :P
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17:03<CornishPasty>mmmmmmmh... Knotts
17:04*CornishPasty leaves now
17:04<andythenorth>also everything has to be run in very specific order :P
17:04<@Yexo>good luck with your new build script andythenorth
17:04<@Yexo>and good night
17:04<andythenorth>bye :)
17:04<andythenorth>ach this might have worked
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17:27<andythenorth>complex thing is complex
17:27<andythenorth>might be easier to just...not :P
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17:48<@Terkhen>good night
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21:49<Dwarden>anyone here has experience with scripting for NSIS ? (nullsoft installer)
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---Logclosed Mon May 14 00:00:25 2012