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#openttd IRC Logs for 2012-05-23

---Logopened Wed May 23 00:00:47 2012
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06:09<YO_LESTAT>hi all
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06:10<YO_LESTAT>created new starting point to challenge someone?
06:12<@planetmaker>that will be a pleasure to those who speak Spanish but no English (we sometimes get them here)
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06:20<YO_LESTAT>can enter any
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06:23<@planetmaker>YO_LESTAT: your language setting indicate that command of the Spanish language is at least recommended, though ;-)
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12:53<@Terkhen>meh, those guys never appear when I'm around
12:53<@Terkhen>and when they do, they ignore my private messages
12:54<@Terkhen>YO_LESTAT: you can try to advertise your server at
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13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: translators * r24267 /trunk/src/lang/ (dutch.txt french.txt korean.txt russian.txt spanish.txt): (log message trimmed)
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: dutch - 9 changes by habell
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: french - 5 changes by OliTTD
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: korean - 185 changes by telk5093
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: russian - 2 changes by Lone_Wolf
13:45<CIA-1>OpenTTD: slovenian - 2 changes by
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14:02<@Terkhen>hi Wolf01
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14:24*andythenorth experiments with Bootstrap css
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15:07<CIA-1>OpenTTD: frosch * r24268 /trunk/src/ (53 files in 3 dirs): -Fix: Use the same colour scheme for the script selection window as in other comparable windows.
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16:48<@Terkhen>good night
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16:54<NataS>why is there no good way to just make trains wait at a station untill the next train with the same orders shows up?
16:54<NataS>timetables are complex as hell, and don't even do that well
16:54<NataS>that's all you really need, and it's not that complex an action
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17:01<Chris_Booth>NataS: you can
17:02<Chris_Booth>you want me to show you how?
17:02<Chris_Booth>if you use 2 logic gates you can make train wait until both bays are full then leave
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17:13<Chris_Booth>try something like that
17:14<TinoDidriksen>'cause that's not crazy at all...
17:14<Chris_Booth>it is not crazy
17:15<Chris_Booth>its a station with 2 notgates
17:15<Chris_Booth>if empty don't let train pass
17:15<TinoDidriksen>The suggestion of adding wait-for-event is sane. Programming in OTTD is less so.
17:15<Chris_Booth>once both full train can pass
17:15<Chris_Booth>its easy
17:15<Chris_Booth>why do you need to program them into openttd when you can build them with trains?
17:17<TinoDidriksen>Are trains turing complete yet?
17:17<Chris_Booth>TinoDidriksen: how do you mean?
17:19<TinoDidriksen>It's a measure of how feature-complete a programming environment is. If something is Turing-complete, then it can do anything.
17:22<Chris_Booth>well you can program and logic gate with trains in openttd
17:22<Chris_Booth>and make a counter
17:22<Chris_Booth>so I guess the sky is the limit
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17:29<NataS>that is crazy
17:30<NataS>I would not be able to build that in a city
17:30<NataS>and that sort of function should be built into the game, not a puzzle logic system
17:31<NataS>my goal is to build a layout that is aesthetically pleasing and efficient.
17:31<Chris_Booth>NataS: with very long tunnels that can be anywhere on a map
17:31<NataS>that is space inefficient, unrealisic, and ugly
17:31<NataS>and also, more complx than timetables
17:31<Chris_Booth>openttd is not realistic
17:32<NataS>oh boy here we go
17:32<Chris_Booth>a train that 100 miles long?
17:32<Chris_Booth>1000 people working in a sky scraper?
17:33<NataS>open ttd is not realistic, but that does not mean I want to build logic gates out of trains and use them to regulate my network
17:33<NataS>Game realism is a thing
17:33<NataS>realism is not an absolute.
17:33<Chris_Booth>it is
17:33<NataS>No game is realistic
17:33*V453000 gets popcorn
17:33<Chris_Booth>realism is the modeling of real items in an objective form
17:34<Chris_Booth>V453000: O_o
17:34<V453000>pointless to discuss :p
17:35<NataS>Well I don't think I'll find (or want) a game that does that. I do want to build a trainset that looks nice, and can run lots of trains on a relitivly simple layout without jamming
17:35<Chris_Booth>when someone asks me how to regulate trains so they only enter a station if approached by both sides
17:35<NataS>and regulate itself without having to buld absurd looking logic gates out of train cars
17:35<Chris_Booth>I then give them a very good solution and they say that is unrealistic and ugly that is not very helpful
17:35<V453000>even if the game offers you to actually build complicated things that are useful for the network?
17:35<NataS>I do not start up OTTD looking to build a rube golberg machine
17:36<V453000>after all, define playing "realistically" ... refusing "too complicated" solutions?
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17:37<Chris_Booth>V453000: I think that is a challenge to build the Rube Goldburg Machine :P
17:38<V453000>no that isnt, logic without use for network is not my cup of tea
17:38<Chris_Booth>you know what a Rube Goldberg Machine is?
17:39<NataS>well I want to play a game about trains and not computers
17:39<NataS>I want to move passingers and cargo
17:39<NataS>and even if the game is "not realistic"
17:39<NataS>I like to imagine there are little people inside the trains and stations
17:39<Chris_Booth>NataS: you know we are just pulling your leg
17:39<NataS>who should know how to schedule things
17:39<Chris_Booth>everyone is here for the same reason. to play openttd
17:40<NataS>without needing to assemble a huge computer out of trains
17:40<Chris_Booth>how you play it and enjoy it is up to you
17:40<V453000>but that is not what I asked about ... I am asking how do I play the game realistically, what is the style specific in
17:40<NataS>like if 10000 people work in a skyscraper, why can't they do the logic gates?
17:40<NataS>why does the logic gate have to be the size of a city?
17:41<Chris_Booth>it doesn't have to be
17:41<V453000>because it for example helps the whole network? And it does not have to be in the city
17:41<Chris_Booth>you can make them more compact
17:41<NataS>it helps the network, but it's a bigger leap in suspension of disbelief than OTTD's scale
17:41<NataS>where trains are hundreds of miles long and can take years to get places
17:42<NataS>the scale is easy to ignore
17:42<Chris_Booth>I like openttd scale
17:42<NataS>building logic gates on the other hand ruins imersion
17:42<Chris_Booth>its easy to look at
17:42<NataS>so do i, it works and looks pretty
17:43<NataS>1 house = 1 road = 1 train track is unrealistic, but it conveys visual information well, and is easy to simulate
17:44<NataS>and looks charming
17:45<opa>i pernoally don't like that you have to put extra tracks to get priorities working. it looks ugly
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17:45<NataS>yes, it's ugly, complex, and something the AI should be able to do itself
17:46<V453000>lol k
17:46<NataS>you should be able to assign priorities to trains
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17:46<V453000>priorities have a lot more uses than just that one train > other
17:46<Chris_Booth>V453000: this is the wrong channel for this
17:47<NataS>how so?
17:47<Chris_Booth>we should take this back to coop before we upset everyone
17:47<V453000>just to point out that it cant be done by any orders
17:47<NataS>but this is not coop
17:47<NataS>this is talking about the mechanics of the game itself
17:47<Chris_Booth>no it is not
17:47<NataS>if anything, this belongs in dev
17:47<Chris_Booth>how does building a prior or logic gate belong in dev?
17:48<Chris_Booth>it belongs in a building channel
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17:48<V453000>because we are obviously wrong and it needs to be made a lot simplier to noobs - there needs ot be a feature to instead of making gates for example, if I understand it right
17:49<V453000>so that you could just build it isntead of actually learning to build it, and tweak it
17:49<NataS>more or less
17:49<NataS>logic gates are really metagamy
17:50<NataS>i don't like to nerd bash, because I am a huge nerd, but advanced play in a game should not revolve around building complex logic gates
17:50<NataS>i mean it's funny as an experiment, but it should not be "the way the game is played"
17:51<V453000>it doesnt have to be logic gates in specific
17:51<V453000>just talk in general, a feature which replaces something gameplay wise, but does not add depth to the ga me
17:52<NataS>but it streamlines things
17:52<V453000>be it signals on bridges, autorefit, or whatever else
17:52<NataS>not all features have to add depth, optimization and streamlining
17:52<V453000>no but they shouldnt reduce possibilities :p
17:52<NataS>they make the game more accessible and less fustrating
17:53<NataS>and I never said posibilities should be reduced.
17:53<V453000>but that is what it does
17:53<NataS>nothing is stoping somebody from building, say, a computer out of trains
17:53<TinoDidriksen>wait-on-event would most certainly add gameplay depth, and would model how the real world works.
17:54<V453000>well sure, but building a computer out of trains is also pretty pointless
17:54<V453000>building logic mechanisms which allow you to do something which is not possible otherwise however can have a huge impact on the network
17:54<NataS>it seems that any game with moving objects that behave in a deteministic way, will eventualy be made into a computer within a computer
17:54<NataS>see also, Dwarf Fortress and Minecraft
17:55<TinoDidriksen>The original problem was having a train wait for another train; this should not require building logic gates.
17:55<opa>it's a nice curiosity that train network is turing complete
17:55<opa>at least almost
17:55<NataS>what does it need to be turing complete?
17:55<opa>well theres no infinite tape memory
17:55<V453000>I dont know DF, but I think Minecraft is a lot different, it has nothing to tell if you are succeeding or not, just 100% sandbox. In OpenTTD trains jam
17:55<opa>are am i remembering something wrong
17:56<NataS>and has anybody made a computer out of source engine physics?
17:56<NataS>V453000, in minecraft redstone can be used to make logic gates, people have even made games inside of it
17:56<opa>are -> or
17:56<V453000>yes I know but that doesnt matter
17:56<NataS>including a highly simple version of minecraft itself
17:57<opa>"to dawg..."
17:57<V453000>nothing in the game tells you if it is useful for something
17:57<opa>argh these typos...
17:57<V453000>but in openttd you can make logic mechanisms which do help your network
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17:57<V453000>improve flow, improve spread of trains, or just make the network work completely automatically, many things
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17:58<TinoDidriksen>opa, the infinite tape is for a Turing machine. For something to be Turing complete it just has to support all the operations that one can do given an infinite tape.
17:59<NataS>yeah but it feels wrong to have to build a logic gate instead of just put and order to leave station when another train (in same group) approaches
17:59<opa>ah, ok
17:59<NataS>what's the diffrence between a Von Newman machine and a Turring machine?
18:00<NataS>(the computer not the self replicating spacecraft)
18:00<NataS>(which is only called a von newman machine due to linquistic coruption)
18:00<V453000>if it is "wrong", then there has to be a better option how to do that, otherwise it is automatically best option/only option/right
18:01<NataS>yeah, I should be able to set that in the orders list
18:01<NataS>there are already some impressive complex/powerfull options avalable there
18:01<V453000>such an option isnt in the game
18:01<TinoDidriksen>The Von Neumann machine is much more practical. A Turing machine is theoretical. A Von Neumann machine is basically how a modern computer is constructed...
18:02<TinoDidriksen>A Turing machine has 2 parts: Infinite tape, and a read/write head.
18:04<NataS>it's confusing, because a universal constructor also involves a long tape trailing out of it
18:04<NataS>too bad trains can't build things in OTTD
18:04<NataS>then we could build a network that was self regulating, and self expanding
18:05<V453000>just make an AI which builds SML with magic bulldozer
18:07<NataS>if you have to code an AI externaly, you don't need self regulating networks or anything
18:08<V453000>why would you do that anyway
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18:13<NataS>i just like the ideal of universal constructors
18:14<V453000>well thats cute but how about to actually play the game instead :D
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18:15<NataS>and that's what I have to say about using logic gates to regulate a network
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18:20<V453000>haha :D
18:21<Nat_aS>this network could use some self regulation
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---Logclosed Thu May 24 00:00:48 2012