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#openttd IRC Logs for 2012-05-27

---Logopened Sun May 27 00:00:54 2012
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00:26<Kylie>bed nn all
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02:27<andythenorth>morning
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02:41<andythenorth>hm
02:41*andythenorth has not released a set for a while
03:15<@Terkhen>good morning
03:18<andythenorth>hi Terkhen
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05:19<@Alberth>'lo andy
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05:35<Wolf01>morning o/
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05:37<@Alberth>you scared the desktop so much it closed the window, Wolf01 :)
05:37<@Alberth>moin :)
05:37<Wolf01>:)
05:38<@Alberth>it could also have been me pressing a weird button :p
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09:11<frosch123>http://devs.openttd.org/~frosch/advsettingdropdown.png http://devs.openttd.org/~frosch/diffs/advsettingdropdown.diff <- anyone interested in testing that patch? i am not interested in bugs, it's a prototype-hack and there are plenty of them. i just want to know about the usability compared to trunk
09:20<@Terkhen>I prefer them, they allow you to see all available options at once
09:20<@Terkhen>but the position feels a bit strange
09:21<@Terkhen>I would expect it to be at the left of the option, not at the left of its description
09:23<frosch123>scattering dropdowns all over the place is also weird
09:23<frosch123>this way all buttons are on the left
09:23<frosch123>(and figuring out the position of some text is even harder)
09:27<@Terkhen>true :)
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11:16<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: i think it's a step in the right direction. but making it more obvious that you can enter a number in <> settings is also needed
11:17<Eddi|zuHause>and while at it, the description should show the default value
11:27<frosch123>the latter could be arranged :)
11:29<@Alberth>selecting a number with a drop-down is not useful, unless it has a very small range
11:29<Eddi|zuHause>that was not what i was saying...
11:30<Eddi|zuHause>currently, with numeric settings, an edit box pops up when you click on it. but that is not very obvious. an explicit button may make it more obvious
11:31<Eddi|zuHause>the < > buttons should stay, but maybe a third button added inbetween
11:32<@Alberth>only keep the <> for numeric settings?
11:32<@Alberth>not sure about adding a 3rd button, what would be on it?
11:33<@Alberth>there are no such buttons anywhere
11:34<Eddi|zuHause>the starting year in the new game window has a similar problem. it is by no means obvious that you can click on the year to enter a number
11:36*Alberth nods
11:37<@Alberth>you should not want to change it anyway :D
11:40<@Terkhen>maybe all three types of options (boolean buttons, numeric values with < > and dropdowns) should be aligned at the right part of the window
11:40<@Terkhen>that way the window would feel less misaligned
11:41<frosch123>there is a mockup for that on the forums
11:41<frosch123>it looks quite stupid
11:41<frosch123>you cannot tell what buttons belong to what setting
11:41<frosch123>if there is lots of whitespace between them
11:41<frosch123>you would have to add dots or line, but that is likely ugly as well :)
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11:49<@Terkhen>hmmm... ok :P
11:52<@Alberth>it also sucks for navigation, you constantly have to move between buttons and the tree (un)collapse buttons then
11:54<frosch123>even better point :)
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12:00<frosch123>max zoom out must be a weird setting
12:01<frosch123>seems to be the only setting that does not start at 0
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12:02<frosch123>ah, pfs as well
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13:25*andythenorth plays openttd
13:25*Chris_Booth play andythenorth
13:25*Chris_Booth play andythenorth
13:25*Chris_Booth plays andythenorth
13:25<Chris_Booth>3rd time lucky
13:25<Chris_Booth>:(
13:25<@Terkhen>:P
13:25<Chris_Booth>sorry andy
13:26<andythenorth>that's some life I won't get back :(
13:26<andythenorth>@DorpsGek r24246
13:27<andythenorth>DorpsGek: @24246
13:27<andythenorth>meh
13:27<@Alberth>@commit 24246
13:27<@DorpsGek>Alberth: Commit by michi_cc :: r24246 /trunk/src (5 files) (2012-05-14 19:56:49 UTC)
13:27<@DorpsGek>Alberth: -Add [FS#5052-ish]: [NewGRF] Variable with the current max speed for vehicles.
13:27<@DorpsGek>@andythenorth r24246
13:27<andythenorth>meh, that's not in DorpsGek's command list
13:28<andythenorth>anyway, looks like an interesting commit
13:28<andythenorth>not sure what to use it for yet
13:28<@Terkhen>crazy stuff?
13:28<andythenorth>seems most like something to display in text
13:28<andythenorth>but there's no info text for vehicles
13:29<@Alberth>convert cargo if it goes faster than some limit :p
13:29<@Terkhen>if speed > value, increase a counter in town storage, and then use a NoGo script to fine the company
13:30<@Terkhen>change vehicle weight when it reaches relativistic speed
13:30<andythenorth>hmm
13:30<andythenorth>that reminds me
13:30<andythenorth>hovercraft should age passengers faster
13:30<frosch123>andythenorth: it is meant to make engines figure out, whether they are running under load, or whether they are idling at the speed limit
13:30<andythenorth>so hence running costs?
13:30<andythenorth>also
13:30<andythenorth>smoke :P
13:33<Snail_>hi guys, I'm having fun coding new features for my trainset
13:34<Snail_>a thing that would *greatly* help (not just me) would be to have more than 8 userbits...
13:34<Snail_>like, a larger bit mask for user data
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13:36<andythenorth>Snail_: you have the luxury of userbits, and you want more :o
13:36<andythenorth>try not using any, it will make you a more heroic newgrf author :)
13:36<@Terkhen>I have never used them, what are possible use cases for userbits?
13:37<andythenorth>detecting things like 'class of lead engine'
13:37<andythenorth>rather than being pinned down to detecting by ID
13:37*andythenorth imagines
13:37*andythenorth does not have any user bits to play with, and is grumpy about that
13:38<Snail_>1. to have engines with multiple liveries: the way they userbits are set or cleared can set a special livery for an engine, and the caches attached to it would change specs according to it
13:39<Snail_>only checking by engine ID would not be sufficient, and checking by refitting cycle would not be sufficient either, because the same engines might have different sets of available liveries depending on certain conditions
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13:39<Snail_>2. userbits can be useful to assign specific characteristics of wagons, such as push-pull capabilities
13:40<Snail_>3. they must be used to enforce particular conditions, such as not allowing the train to leave a depot if a driving trailer is attached to the consist in a position other than last
13:40<@Terkhen>you could always store all engine/consist related information in the persistent storage to free some bits
13:40<andythenorth>there is no persistent storage....
13:40<@Terkhen>no?
13:40<andythenorth>:P
13:40<@Terkhen>http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/VariationalAction2#Type <--
13:40<andythenorth>not unless I miseed a commit
13:41<Snail_>Terkhen: I tried to, but the persistent storage has one value for engine class
13:41<@Terkhen>that says that vehicles have a persistent storage
13:41<andythenorth>:o
13:41<andythenorth>since when is that?
13:41<@Terkhen>no idea, it was there before I coded town storage
13:41<frosch123>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=68&t=57305 <- why start the discussion again?
13:41<andythenorth>spec says industries only
13:41<andythenorth>http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/Storages#Persistent_storage
13:41<Snail_>so if I buy two engines with the same ID, and I store something in the persistent storage for the first engine, and then something else for the 2nd engine, the last info would overwrite the first
13:42<Snail_>so I can't go with persistent storage, I need to go by userbit
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13:43<Snail_>frosch123: I know. I didn't say anything for a while because I tried to make use of the current 8 bits, but there are things I'd like to add that would require more than 8 bits
13:43<frosch123>i still think that the 8 bit are completey useless
13:43<@Terkhen>andythenorth: sorry, I was wrong it seems :P
13:43<Snail_>I've been talking with MB about this for a while, and he would also need more than that to make stuff happen
13:43<frosch123>and extending them does not make them more useful
13:43<@Terkhen>that's just the list of "parent" objects
13:43<frosch123>the OR-mechanic is just useless
13:43<Snail_>frosch123: allow me to disagree :p
13:44<Snail_>I would not possibly have coded the livery system in my set hadn'it it been for the userbits
13:44<frosch123>just because something is currently the only way to do something does not mean that it is good
13:45<Snail_>well, it doesn't mean it's perfect, but it means it works
13:45<Snail_>or at least that it's better than nothing :)
13:46*andythenorth ponders
13:46<CIA-17>OpenTTD: translators * r24294 /trunk/src/lang/ (13 files): (log message trimmed)
13:46<CIA-17>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:46<CIA-17>OpenTTD: catalan - 2 changes by arnau
13:46<CIA-17>OpenTTD: traditional_chinese - 1 changes by Luper
13:46<CIA-17>OpenTTD: croatian - 7 changes by VoyagerOne
13:46<CIA-17>OpenTTD: danish - 3 changes by beruic
13:46<CIA-17>OpenTTD: dutch - 9 changes by mazele
13:46<andythenorth>how about removing 'wagons' and making trains fixed consists?
13:46<Snail_>even something like 16 bits with just OR would greatly help
13:47<andythenorth>fixed consists would solve this
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13:47<frosch123>Snail_: whether it's 16 bit or 32 bit makes absolutely no difference
13:47<Snail_>andythenorth: but that would take away the possibility of adding or removing wagons
13:47<andythenorth>yes
13:48<Snail_>frosch123: what do you mean?
13:48<frosch123>you do not have to bargain for bits
13:48<andythenorth>trains would be articulated vehicles
13:48<andythenorth>they could be refitted by cargo subtype for length
13:48<frosch123>it needs a solution that convinces
13:48<frosch123>not extending crap that is broken for 8 years
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13:49<andythenorth>frosch123: that's how things like PHP win. Where's the issue :P :)
13:49<frosch123>and unconditional OR-ing is about the most stupid thing you can do
13:49<frosch123>that prevents combining multiple grfs
13:49<Snail_>I agree it's limited, but it's still better than nothing
13:49<frosch123>which is the design-scheme from 8 years ago, and is just inappropiate today
13:49<andythenorth>I once proposed arbitrary labels
13:49<andythenorth>primarily for lead vehicle
13:50<andythenorth>to be extended at will by author(s)
13:50<andythenorth>probably all wrong for seven kinds of reason
13:50<andythenorth>:P
13:50<@Terkhen>I guess that you need something like town persistent storage, except that having one of those for each vehicle would reduce the game to a crawl :)
13:50<andythenorth>persistent storage is one option
13:50<andythenorth>there must be others...
13:50<Snail_>Terkhen: exactly
13:50<frosch123>so far i did not read any requirement for storage
13:51<frosch123>every usecase so far was about detecting certain unit compositions
13:51<andythenorth>imo this is same problem class as: refit livery, refit length, refit subtype, refit power
13:51<frosch123>so, andy's labels seem a lot more appropiate than any amount of storages
13:51<Snail_>I tried persistent storage, but it's got one value for ID, not one value for vehicle. Userbits are unique for each vehicle
13:51<andythenorth>storages are going to suck
13:51<@Terkhen>I meant "like" as in, each NewGRF has its space but can read other NewGRfs stuff
13:51<@Terkhen>storages are not an option for vehicles :)
13:51<andythenorth>storages do not provide any convention across grfs
13:51<Snail_>labels could be interesting
13:52<andythenorth>if I stuff a bitmask of four attributes in storage 1, but you put a max speed in there as a word....wtf :P
13:52<andythenorth>^ no problem if no-one ever tries to combine vehicles from multiple sets :P
13:52<Snail_>andythenorth: how would they work? each vehicle would have a string of characters that it could arbitrarily set? and they'd be accessible from other vehicles (through var61)?
13:53<andythenorth>not sure
13:53<andythenorth>not even sure they would work tbh :P
13:53<andythenorth>I'm just suggesting idea
13:53<andythenorth>s
13:54<andythenorth>I suggest things, and frosch123 tells me how they would work, or politely ignores my stupid ideas :)
13:54<Snail_>:)
13:56<andythenorth>what are the cases you have again?
13:56<andythenorth>described in terms of wagon X, engine A etc...
13:57<Snail_>engine ID A can have liveries 1, 2 and 3, so it's got three refits
13:57<Snail_>engine ID B can have liveries 1, 2 and 4
13:58<Snail_>so if I attach two engines, one type A and one type B in a multiple traction, the consist can only have liveries 1 and 2 (engines with different liveries can't be attached to each other)
13:59<Snail_>now, how to check which livery the engines currently have? ... I can't go by refit cycle, because each engine's refit options depend on what's attached to the consist
13:59<Snail_>so going there by userbits is the best solution (so far)
13:59<Snail_>for instance livery 1 has userbit pattern 0000 0000, livery 2 has pattern 0000 0010, livery 3 has pattern 0000 0011 etc.
14:00<Snail_>like this, I reserve a few userbits for the liveries
14:00<Snail_>then, one more userbit is reserved to check whether a driving trailer is not in the last position (which would prevent the train from leaving the depot)
14:01<andythenorth>so the lead vehicle refit is dependent on the consist :o
14:01<andythenorth>?
14:02<Snail_>a couple more userbits are used to check for push-pull compatibility for coaches, a couple more for service type (local/long distance, coz "old" long distance coaches would end up being used as local)
14:02<Snail_>andy: yes, that's how it works now
14:03<Snail_>probably a custom label for each vehicle would solve a few of these problems. I could use it to determine the engine's livery, thus freeing a few userbits
14:03*andythenorth thinks livery refits are part of the problem, not a solution
14:03<andythenorth>but we are where we are
14:04<andythenorth>this set of problems smells also related to FS 4934
14:04<andythenorth>http://bugs.openttd.org/task/4934
14:04<Snail_>andythenorth: historically, there were many different companies that used the same (or very similar) engine types, so I want to recreate this in my sets ;)
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14:05<Snail_>therefore an engine is available in many livery refits that also have an impact on looks, specs, attachment rules, etc.
14:06<andythenorth>Snail_: I understand the desire. It's the method of 'livery by cargo subtype refit' that I think smells wrong
14:06<andythenorth>wrong / bad
14:07<Snail_>andy: I see your point... I tried other approaches, but couldn
14:07<Snail_>t
14:07<Snail_>couldn't find any convincing ones
14:07<andythenorth>and it strikes me FS 4934 only gets worse if more things can be checked in a varact 2 chain, especially wrt checking rest of consist
14:07<andythenorth>there are no other convincing methods
14:08<andythenorth>refitting length of a truck by cargo subtype is not convincing either :P
14:08-!-mal2_ [~mal2@port-92-206-73-114.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #openttd
14:08<andythenorth>nor is refitting power of a vehicle
14:08<Snail_>yeah...
14:09*andythenorth wonders whether a graphics branch should be much more limited, and much more subject to caching
14:09*andythenorth doubts the implementation could be stretched to that
14:10<andythenorth>at least with current act 2 (varact 2) / action 3
14:11<frosch123>andythenorth: you have to differ between stuff that is only needed in depots to check the composition
14:11*andythenorth ponders forcing graphics to be provided by restricted set of cbs
14:11<frosch123>and stuff that is only needed when the vehicle is visible
14:11*andythenorth ponders forcing cbs to return action 1 realsprites block :P
14:12<andythenorth>not action 2 ID :P
14:12<andythenorth>this has certain...problems
14:12<frosch123>fs#4934 is only about the fact, that ottd determines the look of vehicles everytime they move, instead of only when they are visible
14:12<andythenorth>but we know that solving it is very hard?
14:12<frosch123>the current method might be faster when zoomed out and a lot of vehicles are visisible
14:12<frosch123>but certainly slower if the map is huge and only a part is visible at a time
14:12<andythenorth>if sprites can be arbitrary size, what choice do we have but to checking everything?
14:12<andythenorth>checking / check /s
14:13<frosch123>the middle way is to keep the cache, but only invalidate it when moving and fill it when needed
14:13<frosch123>vehicles sprites are not of any size
14:13<frosch123>esp. not rv and train sprites
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14:19<andythenorth>hmm
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14:20<andythenorth>Snail_: this is one of those questions that unpicks lots of other questions :P
14:20<andythenorth>it's not a simple feature request ;)
14:20<Snail_>well, if I got 8 extra userbits, I'd be happy and shut my mouth :D
14:21<Snail_>it would be a workable solution to my problems and would allow me to code what I have in mind with no glitches
14:21<Snail_>even if perhaps it's not so elegant :p
14:21<Snail_>it would still work
14:22<andythenorth>worse is better :P
14:24<Snail_>why worse?
14:25<@Terkhen>that only pospones a better solution :)
14:26<@Terkhen>s/pospones/postpones/
14:26<Snail_>well, any solution that works is good enough to me, as a newGRF developer :) and more userbits would do the trick
14:29<@Terkhen>for us, as developers, it means implementing the same thing twice
14:29<@Terkhen>better to do it right once
14:29*andythenorth tries to figure out why refit cycle can't be used for this?
14:29<andythenorth>I'm sure the reason is good
14:30<andythenorth>nvm, I kind of see it
14:30<Snail_>andythenorth: because the refit options can change according to the consist :)
14:30<frosch123>refit_cycle is a user-set value, no grf-set value
14:31<Snail_>Terkhen: I see, but how hard would it be to allocate 8 more bits to the userbit mask?
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14:32<frosch123>Snail_: the question is how grfs would access them
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14:32<frosch123>again, you do not have to bargain for bits
14:32<frosch123>ottd has no problem to add 32bits to vehicles
14:32<frosch123>but you need a newgrf spec to access them
14:32<frosch123>and the current one cannot be extended
14:33<frosch123>you need somethnig new, and doing the same twice though it is already known to be bad, is stupid
14:33<andythenorth>it's also tiresome that this is only about trains
14:33<andythenorth>trains are not particularly special
14:33<andythenorth>so a solution that could be applied elsewhere is desirable
14:34<andythenorth>which suggests spec update
14:34<Snail_>how about custom labels as andy suggested? would that be feasible?
14:34<andythenorth>labels as they exist elsewhere are get, not set
14:34<andythenorth>dunno if that matters
14:35<Snail_>oh, so they can't be changed?
14:35<andythenorth>for railtypes, cargos etc, no
14:35<andythenorth>there are no cbs to set them
14:35<Snail_>right. I see what you mean
14:35<andythenorth>they're effectively a compile time constant (I think)
14:35<andythenorth>or run time constant at least
14:36<Snail_>right, so they wouldn't help in this case
14:36<andythenorth>not sure if it matters how they work now though
14:36<andythenorth>this would be a different case
14:36<andythenorth>I worry that labels are just a pretty face on persistent storage
14:37<andythenorth>a 4 char label is just 4 bytes of storage :P
14:39<Snail_>the issue is that if they're not changeable, accessing them would give you pretty much the same info as accessing the vehicle ID
14:39<Snail_>coz there would be a 1-to-1 correspondence between ID and label
14:39<andythenorth>they would need to be changeable
14:41<Snail_>yep, so the question is, would it be possible to implement labels for vehicles that could also be set through a callback
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14:43<NGC3982>evening.
14:45<@Terkhen>hi NGC3982
14:47<NGC3982>everything ok? :-)
14:48-!-roadt [~roadt@60.168.90.68] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
14:48<@Terkhen>tomorrow is monday, besides that yes
14:48<NGC3982>monday is the pride of the week!
14:48<NGC3982>;-)
14:49<frosch123>i think there is not even funday monday tomorrow
14:51<NGC3982>&i kind of like them. althought, that might have to do woth the fact that i barely work on mondays.
14:52<NGC3982>with*
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14:52<NGC3982>damn non-T9 app.
14:52*andythenorth likes mondays
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17:12<Wolf01>'night
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17:12<Knogle>Can anyone tell me what exactly GSSignList returns? sign_id's?
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17:14<frosch123>yes
17:14<frosch123>all of them
17:15<Knogle>odd, if I loop through all on the signs and use GSLog to show them, it just returns 0 for all of them.
17:15<Knogle>on=of
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17:16<frosch123>you might first have to set a company
17:16<frosch123>i guess by default you only get your own signs
17:16<frosch123>i.e. the ones placed by the goalscript or those placed in scenario editor
17:16<Knogle>that's the ones I'm trying to list
17:16<Knogle>the ones the gamescript set
17:17<frosch123>hmm, wait, what are you printing with gslog?
17:18<frosch123>the lists in the api are all lists of pairs (somewhat map-ish)
17:18<frosch123>so, you have to make sure to list the keys, not the values
17:18<Knogle>can I paste 4 lines of code here?
17:19<frosch123>use paste.openttdcoop.org
17:19<Knogle>ok
17:19<frosch123>http://wiki.openttd.org/AI:Lists <- in case you haven't read
17:20<Knogle>thanks
17:20<Knogle>http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/1437/
17:20<Knogle>I guess that's all wrong then.
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17:20<@Terkhen>good night
17:22<frosch123>foreach (town, value in townlist) { } <- i am not sure whether foreach returns the key or the value, but that syntax gives you both
17:22<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, try "foreach (_, sign in signlist)
17:22<Eddi|zuHause>"
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17:25<Knogle>tried both, still returns 0 for each sign
17:25<Knogle>oh well, I'll go read http://wiki.openttd.org/AI:Lists and learn.. thanks :)
17:26<frosch123>http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/1438/ <- i would have written that
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17:32<Knogle>ah
17:32<Knogle>local signlist = GSSignList();
17:32<Knogle>signlist.Valuate(GSSign.GetLocation);
17:32<Knogle>that did the trick
17:33<Knogle>Thanks :)
17:33<frosch123>in that case "dummy" will be the tileindex
17:33<frosch123>key remains signid, value is tile
17:35<Knogle>ah, yes.. that makes more sense.
17:36<Knogle>I'd rather want the signid
17:36<Knogle>thanks a lot :)
17:36<frosch123>you're welcome :)
17:47-!-Davidt [~David@bas8-kitchener06-1242470097.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #openttd
17:48<Davidt>HII
17:48<frosch123>hihi
17:53<Sacro>\o/
17:53<frosch123>4 hours late
17:53<Davidt>?
17:53<Davidt>wjhat languege is opentt?
17:54<Davidt>the code
17:54<frosch123>c/c++
17:54<Davidt>oh
17:54<Davidt>:/
17:54<Davidt>isnt openttd by some guy who made rct1?
17:54<__ln__>more or less yes
17:54<frosch123>it was ported :)
17:55<Davidt>oh
17:56<frosch123>if you want assembler, look at ttdpatch :p
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18:00*Davidt is away: im going, dunno where. WHO KNOWS?
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18:23<Eddi|zuHause>Davidt: please disable away messages
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18:35<Kylie>brb
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20:21<Davidt>sorry what?
20:21*Davidt is back (gone 02:21:23)
20:25<Hazzard>lol
20:25*Hazzard is gone
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20:25*Hazzard is return'd
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---Logclosed Mon May 28 00:00:55 2012