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#openttd IRC Logs for 2012-05-28

---Logopened Mon May 28 00:00:56 2012
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05:47<Knogle>How can you see gamescript debugging on a dedicated server?
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06:50<__ln__>is "ein bißchen" literally "a small bite"?
06:51<Markk>More of a "one bit".
06:51<Markk>According to Wiktionary.
06:51<Markk>Or yes, a small bite seems correct.
06:52<Markk>__ln__: Er spricht nur ein bisschen Englisch.
06:52<Markk>He only speaks a little English.
06:53<frosch123>__ln__: yes, just like a english "bit" is also a "bite"
06:58<__ln__>alright, thanks.
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07:58<Rubidium>what shall we do this WITH!!! Monday?
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08:16<@Alberth>break the light barrier
08:26<Eddi|zuHause>erect a light barrier
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09:24<CIA-17>OpenTTD: frosch * r24295 /trunk/src/lang/english.txt: -Fix: STRING1 probably means STRING1.
09:29<CIA-17>OpenTTD: frosch * r24296 /trunk/src/settings_gui.cpp: -Codechange: No need to pass a member variable to a member function.
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09:31<@Belugas>hello Alberth
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09:32<CIA-17>OpenTTD: frosch * r24297 /trunk/src/settings_gui.cpp: -Codechange: Split DParam-setup for drawing setting values to a separate function.
09:34<CIA-17>OpenTTD: frosch * r24298 /trunk/src/ (lang/english.txt settings_gui.cpp): -Feature: Display default values for adv. settings in the settings description.
09:45<CIA-17>OpenTTD: frosch * r24299 /trunk/src/object_gui.cpp: -Change [FS#5057]: Center object previews in 1- and 2-view selectors based on the 4-view selector layout.
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10:41<Adrian>When i stop serviving a station (i.e. picking up cargo), how long does it take for this cargo to no longer being listed? I built a coal station close to another one and rerouted my trains there. But i don't want coal to be wasted, waiting at the former station, along with the appaling rating it gets there.
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10:44<frosch123>currently there is no other way than deleting the old station
10:46<Adrian>i see, can i rebuilt it right after, or will the association return with it?
10:50<Adrian>Ok just fired up the game, the association returns with it. So no luck. The station is big and otherwise important, so i can't sacrifice it. Either way, thanks for your answer.
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13:02<@Alberth>hi hi
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13:31*Alberth is very happy with moving guests in the FreeRCT program
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13:32<@Alberth>hi andy, did you have a chance to look at the trs python files yet? I am somewhat stuck on how to bring it to life tbh
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13:34<andythenorth>Alberth: sorry no
13:34<@Alberth>basically it's a library of functionality that you need to talk to through some network connection, eg http or xmpp, or so. Unfortunately, I have no idea how to make the latter
13:34<andythenorth>have you tried poking at one of the off-the-shelf python frameworks?
13:35<andythenorth>for example, bottle or flask?
13:35<andythenorth>just to teach yourself?
13:36<@Alberth>I had a look at cherrypy iirc
13:36<andythenorth>if you don't mind that I don't actually know what I'm talking about, I can explain the basic concepts
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13:37<@Alberth>I don't understand how such a framework can help me transport data from user-app to my app and back
13:37<andythenorth>cherrypy looks interesting and nice, but non-standard
13:37<andythenorth>I've heard of it before
13:37<@Alberth>or, if you're talking a web-frontend, how to connect to my app from a web-app
13:38<andythenorth>does your app handle the reading and writing of data already?
13:38<@Alberth>I had JSON in mind for now
13:38<@Alberth>a simple set of files
13:39<andythenorth>so, with caveat that I don't know what I'm talking about...
13:39<@Alberth>that's ok, I don't know either :p
13:39<andythenorth>the basic concepts are:
13:40<andythenorth>- request. This is a http request with header, post / get vars etc. Mostly you don't need to worry about this, the browser + server handle it
13:40<andythenorth>- response. What you return to the browser for any given request
13:41<andythenorth>- routing. For a given request, you need to know how to handle it, e.g which classes might be called etc. This is equivalent to a dispatcher pattern.
13:41*Alberth nods
13:41<andythenorth>- authentication / permissions. Security stuff :P
13:41<andythenorth>- session. A way of holding state temporarily, a black art to me :P
13:41<@Alberth>REST has no session state :)
13:42<TinoDidriksen>What do you want to do?
13:42<@Alberth>write a new translation service
13:42<@Alberth>with a backend with the real functionality, and possibly several front-ends
13:43<@Alberth>ie a web service, but also a download to a desktop machine
13:43<TinoDidriksen>Centrally coordinated via the web service, or working on offline data?
13:43<andythenorth>just provide the web app for the desktop machine :P
13:44<@Alberth>the backend has the data, and handles updates, etc
13:44<@Alberth>you can ask for things that need to be translated and/or send translated stuff back
13:44<andythenorth>so the backend is an app with classes / methods....
13:45<andythenorth>and your WSGI app needs to dispatch requests and return responses to/from those
13:45<@Alberth>yeah sort of RPC
13:46<@Alberth>I am trying to make the backend, but I need something so I can talk to it, and do tests etc :)
13:46<TinoDidriksen>SQL storage, web frontend with exposed callbacks/RPC for desktop apps to communicate with.
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13:46<CIA-17>OpenTTD: translators * r24300 /trunk/src/lang/ (9 files): (log message trimmed)
13:46<CIA-17>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:46<CIA-17>OpenTTD: belarusian - 2 changes by Wowanxm
13:46<CIA-17>OpenTTD: czech - 1 changes by Eskymak
13:46<CIA-17>OpenTTD: danish - 10 changes by beruic
13:46<CIA-17>OpenTTD: english_US - 1 changes by Rubidium
13:46<CIA-17>OpenTTD: finnish - 1 changes by jpx_
13:46<@Alberth>I was thinking simple files instead of SQL, but yeah
13:47<TinoDidriksen>Files will have locking and record deletion issues.
13:47<@Alberth>I am not sure it should also be a web frontend, or that the web-frontend should be separate
13:47<TinoDidriksen>Why reimplement SQL when you can just use SQL, or SQLite...
13:48<TinoDidriksen>Communication with the desktop app would almost certainly have to be done via a web frontend anyway.
13:49<TinoDidriksen>Everyone has port 80 and 443 open; a custom backend service with a different port would be harder to work with, and much harder to secure.
13:49<andythenorth>SQL or MySQL?
13:49<@Alberth>oh, 'web frontend' is more than just using port 80, for me
13:50<TinoDidriksen>andythenorth, MySQL is one SQL variant...
13:50<andythenorth>hence the question
13:50<TinoDidriksen>Personally I'd use PostgreSQL
13:50<andythenorth>Rubidium: what do openttd servers have available right now?
13:50<@Alberth>SQL is a generic name for all forms of sql engines
13:51<Rubidium>andythenorth: available for/as what?
13:51<andythenorth>database technology
13:51<TinoDidriksen>Alberth, sure web frontend is more than just port 80, but port 80 vs. firewalls is the reason to use a web frontend.
13:51<andythenorth>might as well use what's already deployed
13:52<@Alberth>TinoDidriksen: yep, http is a smart choice, but not necessarily with html
13:52<andythenorth>Alberth: personally I'd try pyramid for this project, it's the python framework du jour, and I need to learn it anyway
13:52<@Alberth>as it just exchanges machine oriented data
13:53<TinoDidriksen>Nah, JSON for desktop communication.
13:53<Rubidium>andythenorth: at least MySQL
13:53<andythenorth>I've built the hello world app for pyramid
13:53<@Alberth>but what do you do at the user end?
13:53<@Alberth>you need some program there too??
13:53<Rubidium>no idea about other SQLs being knowingly used, though the CF probably uses some sort as well
13:54<andythenorth>Alberth: which bit of user end?
13:54<@Alberth>or you need to make a web app with forms etc
13:54<andythenorth>assuming you have a browser client
13:54<andythenorth>I assume you want one :P
13:54<TinoDidriksen>It's fairly trivial to throw together a Qt app that communicates with a HTTP server over JSON.
13:55<TinoDidriksen>But why a desktop app? Clunky stuff...
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13:56<andythenorth>Alberth: at the simplest you need one web form
13:56<andythenorth>it might even be static html, although I doubt it
13:56<@Alberth>you have automatic things going on, eg VCSes that deliver changed strings, and pull translated strings
13:56<TinoDidriksen>And, what's wrong with the current translation system?
13:57<@Alberth>it only does openttd, and not all newgrfs
13:57<TinoDidriksen>Isn't it easier to add that than to start from scratch?
13:57<@Alberth>its author says no
13:58<andythenorth>it probably isn't a repeatable deployment, at a guess
13:58<andythenorth>if it's like bananas, building a dev environment is near-impossibl
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13:58<@Alberth>bananas is newer :p
13:59<Rubidium>"tree time's a charm" works in software development as well. Usually stuff gets better after iterations as problems get figured out during development which are tricky to fix without redoing it completely
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13:59*andythenorth is on hmm...the fourth rebuild of some big apps :P
14:00<@Alberth>not when I haven't studied the first two :)
14:00<@Alberth>which is one of the things I need to do :)
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14:01<andythenorth>reliable, repeatable builds are the number lesson I've learnt about web apps
14:01<andythenorth>all other arguments about technology are mostly near-religious and lack evidence :P
14:01<@Alberth>but ok, a bit of pyramid thus
14:01<andythenorth>but not being able to build the app for dev / production is bad bad bad
14:02<andythenorth>no different to making sure openttd always compiles :P
14:02<andythenorth>you can pick pretty much any technology, but if you can't build without doing funny rituals and praying for luck, your app is screwed
14:02<@Alberth>yeah, but web apps are soooooooo simple ........... :D (famous last words)
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14:03<andythenorth>they are :P
14:03<@Alberth>it depends on the expected life time of the application :p
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14:12<andythenorth>Alberth: so the app also needs to write to VCS?
14:12<andythenorth>and possibly read from VCS?
14:13<@Alberth>no, you run an app that does that, and exchange data with 'my' app
14:13<@Alberth>that way I don't need access to your repo, and I don't need to care about VCSes :p
14:14<andythenorth>how do commits make it to main ottd repo?
14:14<andythenorth>or newgrf repos?
14:15<andythenorth>developer explicitly pulls?
14:15<@Alberth>you run an app that queries updated translations
14:15<andythenorth>so an update / merge app
14:15<@Alberth>that seems the simplest solution to me
14:16<andythenorth>have you seen the script in BANDIT?
14:16<andythenorth>probably doesn't need to be much more complicated than that :P
14:16*Alberth looks at the file
14:17<andythenorth>just curl changes, diff, save?
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14:18<@Alberth>it probably needs a bit local file recosntruction too, as I don't make assumptions on the used string file format
14:19<@Alberth>(well, I do, but as few as possible :) )
14:19<andythenorth>so pull json?
14:19<andythenorth>xml :P
14:19<andythenorth>json is probably good for this
14:19<@Alberth>yes, in some standard form
14:19<@Alberth>xml means you can use xmpp :p
14:22*andythenorth needs a picture
14:22<andythenorth>2 mins
14:29<andythenorth>Alberth: is it this?
14:29<andythenorth>I know that's simple :P
14:30<@Alberth>it is :) but it has nice darkened edges :p
14:31<@Alberth>but that's globally the idea, an app that does 'it', and stuff around it to query/access it
14:32<@Alberth>you and Tino see it speak html for a browser too, I was thinking to add an app for that too
14:32<andythenorth>you can have it speak html
14:33<@Alberth>so I don't have the usual html generation mess in the app
14:33<andythenorth>or you can have it speak very limited html, lots of json, and make it an AJAX app
14:33<andythenorth>which is how twitter et al works
14:33<andythenorth>but it's not my taste because I don't get on brilliantly with javascript :P
14:33<@Alberth>mostly they don't, at my machine :p
14:34<TinoDidriksen>andythenorth, learn jQuery...JS is quite fun with that.
14:34<andythenorth>I have
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14:34<andythenorth>keeping state in the DOM still hurts my brain
14:34<andythenorth>it seems insane to me :P
14:35<andythenorth>'write your entire app by shuffling things on and off <li> tags' :P
14:35<andythenorth>I know there are other, better ways
14:35<andythenorth>Alberth: a jquery app means you can do the whole thing in JSON
14:35<andythenorth>but parsing the json to html is also trivial
14:36<andythenorth>or just fetching the raw data
14:37<@Alberth>I am sure it is, but I want to focus on the back-end, not on a frontend
14:37<andythenorth>k, so allowing for large current dose of real life, I can help
14:37<@Alberth>perhaps I should write the vcs interface app
14:38<TinoDidriksen>I would make a frontend sketch or mockup first, to ensure the backend can actually do everything the frontend will need.
14:38<andythenorth>Alberth: got a repo?
14:38<@Alberth>I have plenty repos, just not for trs :p
14:38<andythenorth>well pull or download twitter bootstrap, as we'll need it later :P
14:39<andythenorth>it means trs will look like every other web app made in 2012, but meh, it's easy and works
14:40<andythenorth>also, we should use chameleon for templating, because I know it
14:40<andythenorth>you probably have chameleon already for BANDIT
14:40<andythenorth>BANDIT is abusing a html templating engine to write nml :P
14:41<andythenorth>BANDIT could be a web app, all it needs to do is 'return (templated nml)' instead of 'codecs.write (templated nml)'
14:44*Alberth has never run BANDIT
14:44<andythenorth>it's worth a try :)
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14:56<Knogle>How can you see gamescript debugging on a dedicated server?
15:00<@Alberth>perhaps you can post a question in the AI/script development forum
15:02<Eddi|zuHause>i'd expect you can yank up some debug level to get the script output on stderr
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15:07<Knogle>I was hoping there was a debug command like -d ai=X, but for gamescripts.
15:07<Knogle>but thanks, I'll try the forums.
15:07<@Alberth>try --help
15:08<@Alberth>and you get a dump of available debug categories
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15:22<Knogle>--help isn't much help really
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15:30<frosch123>List of debug facility names:
15:30<frosch123>driver, grf, map, misc, net, sprite, oldloader, npf, yapf, freetype, script, sl, gamelog, desync, console
15:30<frosch123>^^ thats the important part of --help
15:31<Knogle>all it I see is: -d [[fac=]lvl[,...]]= Debug mode
15:32<Knogle>anyway, which one is for game scripts? lol
15:32<frosch123>yep, and you need -d script=4
15:32<Knogle>thanks a lot frosch123 :)
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15:33<frosch123>4 means all, you can reduce it to only get the output of GSLog::Warning or Error
15:34<Knogle>Great, thanks!
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16:32<andythenorth>FIRS farms are still boring :P
16:32<@Terkhen>make them smaller
16:33<@Terkhen>and with bigger clusters
16:38<andythenorth>the clustering seems to have gone astray during the nml conversion
16:38<andythenorth>I need to add it back in
16:39<andythenorth>or at least, the part that scales by map size seems to be missing
16:39<andythenorth>maybe I just need YACD in my game
16:39<@Terkhen>yeah, that would be awesome :P
16:40<andythenorth>the lack of YACD is dull
16:40*andythenorth wonders if it compiles with current trunk
16:40<Rubidium>andythenorth: don't wonder, I full expect it to fail to apply
16:40<@Terkhen>I seriously doubt it
16:40*andythenorth was going to just test it :P
16:40<@Terkhen>it would be a miracle :P
16:41<@Terkhen>you could spend some time updating it to current trunk though :)
16:42*andythenorth hasn't figured github out yet
16:45<andythenorth>hmm, some failures for
16:45<andythenorth>not many
16:45<Rubidium>that's likely not the official one
16:46<andythenorth>I assume compiling a failed patch is silly?
16:46<andythenorth>it's not the official one
16:46<Rubidium>andythenorth: usually it is
16:46*andythenorth ponders a fake YACD using only subsidies
16:47<andythenorth>capitalism (price incentive) vs central planning (YACD)
16:48<andythenorth>no need to route each packet
16:49<andythenorth>also....bed time
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16:54*Terkhen ponders that pondering and then leaving without giving time to comment is not very useful
16:54<@Terkhen>also, good night
16:55<Chris_Booth>If you notice this notice, you will notice that this notice is not worth noticing.
16:56<Chris_Booth>did you notice the note rails ?
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16:56<rails>if i really have to notify you about my noticing the notice that you notice'd to everyone
16:57<CornishPasty>yo dawg...
16:58<Chris_Booth>CornishPasty you are now tax free!
16:59<CornishPasty>Am I a product of designated origin yet?
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17:18<MrZombie>When ever I try downloading Superlib with SVN I get this error: '' path not found
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17:33<CornishPasty>NGC3982: rofl
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---Logclosed Tue May 29 00:00:56 2012