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#openttd IRC Logs for 2012-06-01

---Logopened Fri Jun 01 00:01:00 2012
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03:29<dihedral>greetings
03:30<Rubidium>moin dih
03:32<dihedral>hello sir, how are you?
03:33<Rubidium>at ~20% of my work month ;)
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03:48<dihedral>either you have a very short work month, or you have way to much to do :-P
03:53<dihedral>desync was not mentioned for a while in changelogs ;-)
03:54<@planetmaker>8 weeks or so? :-P
03:54<@planetmaker>hi dihedral & moin all
03:54<@planetmaker>actually... 4 weeks
03:55<@planetmaker>http://hg.openttd.org/openttd/trunk.hg/log?rev=desync
03:55*NGC3982 tries office libraries for C#.
03:55<NGC3982>this will be a treat.
03:55<@planetmaker>or a threat?
03:56<NGC3982>;)
03:56<Rubidium>why do you want to use something with sharp edges?
03:56<Rubidium>(or something that's hashed)
03:57<@planetmaker>at least make sure to add some salt ;-)
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04:04<NGC3982>hehe ;)
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06:42<CIA-17>OpenTTD: frosch * r24307 /trunk/src/ (widgets/dropdown.cpp window.cpp window_gui.h): -Codechange: Move all interaction of the dropdown window with widgets of the parent window to a method of the parent window.
06:43<CIA-17>OpenTTD: frosch * r24308 /trunk/src/widgets/ (dropdown.cpp dropdown_type.h): -Add: ShowDropDownListAt() for drawing dropdown windows independent of dropdown widgets.
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06:44<CIA-17>OpenTTD: frosch * r24309 /trunk/ (12 files in 4 dirs): -Codechange: Split some functions from gui.h to settings_gui.h
06:57<Hazzard>Dammit
06:57<lugo>Janet!
07:01<Hazzard>When I export as PNG in gimp the console says "Invalid palette; does not contain 256 entries."
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07:10<Hazzard>saving as pcx seems to work though
07:10<Hazzard>nvm, it doesnt
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07:12<Eddi|zuHause>Hazzard: you must make sure that you check the option "do not remove unused colours"
07:12<Hazzard>Yes, the colormap shows all the colors, even the unused ones
07:13<Hazzard>gimp seems to be failing to export the paletter
07:13<Hazzard>*palette
07:15<Eddi|zuHause>yes, because you didn't check the option...
07:16<@planetmaker>and... you need to have a paletted image in the first place. You cannot export an rgb image to a paletted one
07:20<Hazzard>I have a properly paletted gimp file (.xcf) and export it into .png. When I try to compile, it gives me the error.
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07:23<@planetmaker>how do you know it's properly paletted? :-)
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09:41<@planetmaker>@seen smatz
09:41<@DorpsGek>planetmaker: smatz was last seen in #openttd 13 weeks, 1 day, 17 hours, 48 minutes, and 9 seconds ago: <SmatZ> beer!
09:41<@planetmaker>:-(
09:41<NGC3982>13 weeks, jeez.
09:42<@planetmaker>yes... and he's one of the kindest people around...
09:44<NGC3982>how can one measure an orbit with arbitrary feelings?
09:44*NGC3982 trollface.
09:53<@Belugas>hello
09:55<frosch123>it's a whale, no troll
09:56<Eddi|zuHause>what's a whaleface then?
09:59<@Belugas>a fishy one :)
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10:41<CIA-17>OpenTTD: frosch * r24310 /trunk/src/ (6 files in 2 dirs): -Codechange: Add named constants for the dimensions of settings buttons, and generally make their usage more consistent.
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10:41<CIA-17>OpenTTD: frosch * r24311 /trunk/src/ (settings_gui.cpp settings_gui.h): -Add: DrawDropDownButton() to draw dropdown buttons independent of actual widgets.
10:42<@planetmaker>but... a whale is a mammal... not a fish ;-)
10:42<CIA-17>OpenTTD: frosch * r24312 /trunk/src/ (ai/ai_gui.cpp newgrf_gui.cpp): -Change: Center the settings buttons in the AI and NewGRF config windows.
10:43<frosch123>planetmaker: not when he is trolling :)
10:43<frosch123>obviously a trolling whale makes a fish face
10:43<frosch123>:p
10:44<@planetmaker>:-D
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10:57<Eddi|zuHause>what happened to the days when "trolling" meant "walking away"?
10:59<@planetmaker>troll Dich doch :-P
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11:03<frosch123>well, the usual trollface looks actually more like a ogre-face
11:03<frosch123>so, i guess some wannabe fantasy author messed it up somehwen
11:03<@planetmaker>and during day quite stone-like ;-)
11:04<frosch123>some trolls are always stone
11:08<CIA-17>OpenTTD: frosch * r24313 /trunk/src/ (ai/ai_gui.cpp newgrf_gui.cpp settings_gui.cpp): -Fix: Some obiwans wrt. clicking on setting buttons.
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11:12<CIA-17>OpenTTD: frosch * r24314 /trunk/src/newgrf_gui.cpp: -Fix: Editing NewGRF parameters using the query window showed wrong values, if there was no direct relation between parameter index and parameter register.
11:13<CIA-17>OpenTTD: frosch * r24315 /trunk/src/ai/ai_gui.cpp: -Fix: Make the AI settings window behave more like the other settings window by closing the query window whenever selecting a different row.
11:18-!-Zuu [~Zuu@h-114-141.a98.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #openttd
11:19<CIA-17>OpenTTD: frosch * r24316 /trunk/src/settings_gui.cpp: -Feature: Allow setting adv. settings with limited range using a dropdown list.
11:20<CIA-17>OpenTTD: frosch * r24317 /trunk/src/ (4 files in 2 dirs): -Feature: Add dropdowns to AI configurations, if all values have labels.
11:20<CIA-17>OpenTTD: frosch * r24318 /trunk/src/ (newgrf_config.cpp newgrf_config.h newgrf_gui.cpp): -Feature: Add dropdowns to NewGRF configurations, if all values have labels.
11:20<@planetmaker>quite a feature spree today :-)
11:20<frosch123>feature inflation :)
11:21<@planetmaker>pfffff.....t :-P
11:21<frosch123>you should put some good old features into your pillow
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11:30<Eddi|zuHause>how about an action14 value that hides a setting from the gui if newgrf-developer is not set?
11:30<Eddi|zuHause>(not that i have a specific use for that at the moment)
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11:31<frosch123>aren't newgrf settings hidden enough? :p
11:32<frosch123>but well, yes, there are some things which ai parameters have, and newgrfs don't
11:32<frosch123>e.g. the option to just put a random value into a parameter
11:37<Eddi|zuHause>random values in newgrfs are tricky
11:38<Eddi|zuHause>they need to be randomized on the main gui, and then stay constant while setting up the rest of the game (including random seed)
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11:43<Zuu>Eddi|zuHause: You could also claim that there is already a such setting for AIs/Scripts to hide settings for non-developers :-)
11:44<Zuu>(there is one, if I was not clear enough)
11:44<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123 said that
11:44<Zuu>Oh, I typed quicker than reading backlog :-)
11:44<frosch123>but wrt. unifying them i would first add descriptions to ai settings
11:45<frosch123>though maybe it is clever to add translation support even before that
11:45<Zuu>And drop dificulties for AIs? Or add that legacy stuff to NewGRFs too? (or is that already in NewGRFs?)
11:46<frosch123>well, recently we discussed dropping difficulties completely from the game
11:46<Zuu>Eg. to have 4 default values for settings. One for each difficulty level and custom.
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11:47<Zuu>I wouldn't mind it being dropped. While I like the idea, it doesn't work currently and only adds complexity rather than any benefits.
11:48<Zuu>If we ever get (adv.) setting presets, easy/medium/hard could be added back as presets later.
11:49<Zuu>possible through bananas and thus on the task of the community to maintain them.
11:50<frosch123>yeah, but it would be questionable whether those contain also ai and newgrf settings :)
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12:00<welshdragon>i think the devzone server is broken
12:00<welshdragon>I'm on 110mb connection, and it times out when I try to download something
12:01<welshdragon>it won't let me download anything
12:01<frosch123>ogfx+trains?
12:02<welshdragon>oh wow, that was some epic lag
12:02<welshdragon>no, Chilli's PP
12:04<frosch123>yeah, the http download does not work at all
12:04<welshdragon>really?
12:04<welshdragon>:(
12:04<frosch123>Ammler: ^^ any idea?
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12:05<frosch123>it stops after 16112 byte :)
12:06<welshdragon>it stops after 0 byte
12:06<welshdragon>for me anyway
12:06<frosch123>i geot 16112 byte of 6.4MB and they even look correct
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12:20<Ammler>oh super :-)
12:21<Ammler>I have no clue what happen :-)
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12:23<Ammler>well, bundles is not proxied with nginx
12:23<Ammler>so it isn't related with the hg issue
12:24<Ammler>"There were 107 failed login attempts since the last successful login." :-)
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12:24<andythenorth>lo
12:34-!-Nat_AFK is now known as NataS
12:43<Eddi|zuHause>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HWAckQg3K38&feature=youtu.be
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12:45<andythenorth>that tram is not on the tracks
12:46<andythenorth>looks like the coder has specified the wrong sprite for that angle?
12:48<frosch123>i think they changed newgrfs in game
12:48<frosch123>replaced a rv with a tram while it was turning around
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12:57<NGC3982>Eddi|zuHause: what happend?
12:58<Eddi|zuHause>NGC3982: that wasn't really mentioned... i guess the switch was not in the correct position...
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13:07<andythenorth>Fish on Fridays!
13:07<andythenorth>@seen pikka
13:07<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: pikka was last seen in #openttd 1 week, 6 days, 10 hours, 33 minutes, and 16 seconds ago: <Pikka> hello Alberth
13:07<NGC3982>can someone please clean my apartment.
13:07<NGC3982>thank you.
13:07<andythenorth>but no bird :P
13:08<andythenorth>NGC3982: move out
13:08<andythenorth>easier
13:08*NGC3982 needs his mother again.
13:08<andythenorth>@seen zuu
13:09<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: zuu was last seen in #openttd 1 hour, 19 minutes, and 30 seconds ago: <Zuu> possible through bananas and thus on the task of the community to maintain them.
13:20<NGC3982>being a teacher is fairly easy in sweden
13:20<NGC3982>or so it seems
13:20-!-NataS is now known as Nat_AFK
13:20<NGC3982>a teacher took a full class of kids up on this bridge to do some fishing
13:20<NGC3982>http://blogg.gp.se/trafikbloggen/files/2012/05/DSC_0071.jpg
13:20<NGC3982>a train arrived, and the driver was able to stop in time.
13:20<NGC3982>imagine the disaster.
13:20<CornishPasty>WAT?
13:21<CornishPasty>Think of the train's reliability!
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13:39<andythenorth>k
13:39<andythenorth>so I have between 1 and 3 days where I can probably do ottd stuff
13:39<andythenorth>what shall I do?
13:39<andythenorth>- next FIRS release?
13:40<andythenorth>- make BANDIT compile on devzone?
13:40<andythenorth>- work on CHIPS?
13:40<andythenorth>can't do anything on HEQS
13:43<FLHerne>Adjust the capacity of Tyskebuska Freighters, then add wherries and narrowboats to FISH :P
13:43<andythenorth>FLHerne: I considered your request
13:44<andythenorth>but life is not tidy ;)
13:44<andythenorth>are you shipping stuff at sea, or inland?
13:45<CIA-17>OpenTTD: translators * r24319 /trunk/src/lang/ (5 files):
13:45<CIA-17>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-17>OpenTTD: afrikaans - 19 changes by telanus
13:45<CIA-17>OpenTTD: belarusian - 1 changes by Wowanxm
13:45<CIA-17>OpenTTD: dutch - 11 changes by habell
13:45<CIA-17>OpenTTD: german - 1 changes by planetmaker
13:45<CIA-17>OpenTTD: lithuanian - 30 changes by RunisLabs
13:45<FLHerne>Land->Sea->Land, normally
13:46<FLHerne>Or from oil-rigs inland
13:47<andythenorth>could do a 180t river boat
13:47<Ammler>andythenorth: as bundles is broken, Only "work on CHIPS" is supported ;-)
13:47<andythenorth>Ammler: I can't see any tickets either :)
13:47<FLHerne>Why have the one boat that doesn't quite fit the pattern anyway?
13:47-!-mal2 [~mal2@port-92-206-68-173.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
13:47<andythenorth>because life is imperfect
13:48<andythenorth>it does fit a pattern, it's twice the size of the small trader
13:48<Ammler>andythenorth: then you need to make a break
13:48<Ammler>I guess at least until tomorrow, not sure, I will get it working tonight
13:48<andythenorth>I can live with that :)
13:48<FLHerne>Why not make the small one 90 then? :P
13:49<andythenorth>in fact, it's not twice the size of the small one, that's 85t
13:50<FLHerne>Well, make it 180t, and the small one 90t. Then it'll all match better :D
13:50<andythenorth>no, it's unamusing to do that
13:51<FLHerne>Unamusing?
13:51<FLHerne>The coding, or the actual idea?
13:52<andythenorth>having everything neatly fit together is unamusing
13:55<FLHerne>Oh?
13:55*FLHerne wanders off to get sme fish&chips
13:55<frosch123>you mean fish&ottd ?
13:55<Eddi|zuHause>could offer for each ship a refit option, e.g. 180t, 185t, 190t
13:56<Eddi|zuHause>for "finetuning" of capacities
13:57<andythenorth>ships should have holds :P
13:57<andythenorth>and a magical auto-refit
13:59<Eddi|zuHause>yes, mixed cargo ships
13:59<andythenorth>I could convert FISH to nml
14:00<andythenorth>and python and such
14:01<Eddi|zuHause>only if that means that afterwards, code is shared 90%
14:01<andythenorth>with?
14:02<NataS>so how WOULD a make a boat speed factor newgrf that speeds up FISH ships?
14:02<NataS>or any ship
14:02<andythenorth>you wait until I convert it to python with a config file
14:02<andythenorth>then you patch it yourself :P
14:02<andythenorth>[only works for FISH]
14:03<NataS>lol
14:03<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: with BANDID, HEQS and FIRS
14:04<NataS>andythenorth, what about cargo aircraft?
14:04<Eddi|zuHause>NataS: don't speed up boats, tune the cargo decay rate instead
14:04<NataS>could you tune cargo decay rate for things in boats?
14:05<NataS>my problem is boats can take years to reach there destination, they still earn money, but only once ever 3 years
14:05<Eddi|zuHause>so e.g. a boat would earn the same money on a trip as a train with twice the speed
14:05<NataS>which is really inconvenient.
14:05<Eddi|zuHause>(only that the train will arrive twice in that time, so you need two boats)
14:05<andythenorth>they'd still be reported as losing money each year
14:05<andythenorth>violating the game goals
14:05<Eddi|zuHause>that's an accounting problem
14:05<Eddi|zuHause>not a newgrf problem
14:06<andythenorth>it's an ottd problem :P
14:06<NataS>i know
14:06<NataS>but it's easier to fix with a newgrf than to change how the UI displays income
14:06<NataS>:V
14:06<Eddi|zuHause>so solve the problem in ottd's accounting code
14:06<Eddi|zuHause>NataS: no, it's not "easier". you just dismiss all the side effects
14:07<NataS>i'm being lazy here
14:07<andythenorth>making boats stupid to fix a problem with P&L periods is silly
14:07<Eddi|zuHause>exactly
14:07<Eddi|zuHause>even if i didn't understand half of that sentence :)
14:07<NataS>I don't know how to program, and It seems easier to learn how to code newgrfs than to learn how to tinker with OTTD
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14:08<NataS>also, it's anoying watching boats be so slow
14:08<NataS>compaired to trains
14:08<NataS>I know there speeds are realistic
14:08<NataS>but the scale of OTTD is not realistic
14:08<Eddi|zuHause>NataS: you don't need to program to develop an accounting scheme that is flexible enough to handle very long roundtrip times, and at the same time detects anomalies on short routes
14:09<Eddi|zuHause>once you actually have that scheme, you can think of finding someone to implement it
14:10<NataS>add a lifetime profit display that shows the total groas profit for the vehicle from the moment it was built, including the cost of purchasing the vehicle and any subsequent refits/upgrades/rollingstock
14:10<NataS>Hmm, maybe not rolling stock, that would get complicated
14:10<NataS>considering how cars get moved around.
14:10<NataS>also, multihead engines might get complex
14:11<NataS>Damn
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14:15<NataS>well it could work, vehicles already store the cost of purchase, and you could just add the cost of refits and upgrades to that.
14:15<NataS>it would be complicated, but it could work
14:15<NataS>the lifetime profit would just fluctuate when you recombine trains.
14:15<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: not sure how I'd unify code across newgrfs
14:16<andythenorth>I could provide some packages
14:16<andythenorth>one for 'vehicle'
14:16<andythenorth>one for 'render nml templates'
14:16<andythenorth>and then subclass those per set
14:16<andythenorth>I could provide classes for 'ship', 'rv' etc too
14:16<andythenorth>(sub-classes)
14:17<andythenorth>hard to make it: generic; simple; and useful
14:17<NataS>a less complicated idea would just be to include a dropdown menu for the profit display to show last year/2 years, 3 years, ect
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14:17<LordAro>testing, testing, 1, 2, 3...
14:18<andythenorth>vehicle P&L is a stupid concept anyway
14:18<andythenorth>P&L per unit of cargo is the platonic ideal, but completely impossible to determine :P
14:19<FLHerne>me comes back with some fish-n-chips :D
14:19<FLHerne>./me, even
14:19<NataS>Pay and Loss?
14:19<NataS>Profit rather
14:19<LordAro>hai all
14:20<NataS>i understand that cargo payment is a complex vodo, but faster things pay more. And some cargos are more valuable
14:20<NataS>so just put the most cargo onto the fastest train you can
14:20<NataS>and send it as far as is practical
14:20<NataS>but in the most direct route
14:34<andythenorth>hmm
14:34<andythenorth>what's gained by converting FISH to nml?
14:35<FLHerne>Easier improvement later, presumably?
14:36<andythenorth>yes
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14:41<NataS>why is the fastest FISH boat one of the older ones?
14:41<NataS>well fastest cargo ship
14:41<NataS>not counting the passenger ferries or the hovercraft.
14:44<andythenorth>which one?
14:44<andythenorth>ho, drop down menus \o/
14:45<andythenorth>@frosch123 ^ :)
14:45<NataS>the paddle wheel steamer
14:45<NataS>is the fastest large cargo ship
14:45<frosch123>:)
14:46<andythenorth>it's a side effect of it being intended as a passenger ship
14:46<andythenorth>depending on the world economy, ships have been faster and slower at different points in history
14:46<andythenorth>or at least, as far as I can tell
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14:46<NataS>for game balance, why not fast modern/future ships?
14:47<NataS>asside from a few outliers, FISH ships don't seem to have much date distribution.
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14:47<andythenorth>dates are unfinished
14:48<andythenorth>most are quite wrong
14:48<andythenorth>what would make CHIPS docks better?
14:48<andythenorth>are they too wide?
14:48<NataS>I have not seen CHIPS docks
14:49<NataS>I prefer ISR because it has more eyecandy
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14:49<NataS>even though CHIPS has more advanced features
14:49<andythenorth>FIRS farming chains are still stupid
14:50*andythenorth [is playing a game and thinking aloud]
14:50<NataS>when I was playing around in FIRS, I noticed there was an awquard distribution of the cargos produced by the farm types
14:51<andythenorth>expand...?
14:51<NataS>but I don't remember what the details were
14:51<NataS>I haven't tried it lately
14:51<NataS>I rarely use FIRS because I hate random maps and there are no scenerios for it
14:51<NataS>I like maps with lots of priamaries and few secondaries
14:52<NataS>and intresting/relistic (non random) terrain
14:58*andythenorth makes CHIPS docks smaller
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15:08<Wolf01>evenink
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15:10<Knogle>hmm, can't you do: local knogle = ((popu / goal) * 100); ?
15:11<Knogle>is GS
15:11<Knogle>it returns 0, even though popu is 500 and goal is 10000
15:12<frosch123>might it do a integer divison?
15:13<frosch123>so, swap the / goal with the * 100
15:13<frosch123>if you want a integer result
15:13<frosch123>or add a +0.0 in the middle if you want a float result
15:14<Knogle>I wanna get % of goal
15:14<Knogle>so I want it to do exactly what I typed :P
15:15<frosch123>float or integer?
15:15<Knogle>int
15:15<Eddi|zuHause>Knogle: 500/10000 is 0.05, but this is immediately rounded down, so 0
15:16<Eddi|zuHause>and 0*100 stays 0
15:16<Knogle>oh
15:16<Eddi|zuHause>if you instead do 500*100, you get 50000, and then 50000/10000 is 5
15:16<Knogle>so my math is wrong?
15:17<Eddi|zuHause>not "wrong"... "naive" :)
15:18<Eddi|zuHause>in school you learn that a/b*c is the same as a*c/b, but for computers, it sometimes isn't
15:18<Knogle>so.. local knogle = ((popu * 100) / goal);
15:18<Knogle>would be right
15:18<Eddi|zuHause>yes
15:18<Knogle>thanks a lot Eddi|zuHause :)
15:18<Eddi|zuHause>but all brackets there are redundant
15:19<Knogle>would it work without brackets?
15:19<Knogle>nice
15:19<Knogle>thanks a lot guys, I'm still fairly new to this :)
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15:30*andythenorth ponders
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15:30<andythenorth>was the original game better without this newgrf stuff?
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15:43<Knogle>yes :P
15:45<Rubidium>andythenorth: the original game being better has little to do with newgrfs ;)
15:45<andythenorth>is the vanilla (no newgrf) game a better game?
15:46*andythenorth is having newgrf remorse
15:46*Zuu enjoys playing with the original industries as that means less time spent figuring out how the industries work and more to play with tracks.
15:47<Rubidium>andythenorth: can't really tell. Last time I really played OpenTTD, NewGRFs weren't really hot yet
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15:50<andythenorth>hello Zuu
15:50<andythenorth>I like your sign idea wrt scenarios and GS
15:52<Zuu>Great. I see that some of the "old" OpenTTD folks like it. I wonder if any of the target group of scenario developers without programming knowledge have seen it yet or if they are scared by the topic title. :-)
15:52<andythenorth>as far as I can tell, the scenario scripting in Railroad Tycoon 3 used a similar concept of seed points
15:52<andythenorth>so some areas of the map get mines, some textile mills etc
15:53<andythenorth>but there would be some random-ness each time the scenario was played, which was good
15:54<NataS>oh, that sounds cool
15:54<NataS>I just want a secnerio that shows of FIRS though
15:54<NataS>:P
15:55<Zuu>As with most ideas, it need some sort of specification of what sign commands it should handle and an idea on the overview level on how it should be implemented. Then it needs someone familar with the AI/GS system to implement it. :-)
15:57<NataS>but in general, what i'm really looking for is clusters of producing industries separated from single secondary industries located closer to cities.
15:58<Zuu>If I had unlimited of spare time, I would probably do it, but now I already got plenty of spare time projects that wants some love.
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15:59<Zuu>A GS can construct industries the same way as a player can fund industries, but for free. However, NewGRF restrictions still apply.
16:00<Zuu>So you could make a scenario/game with no generation of new industries, and then have a GS that builds industries according to some strategy.
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16:00<NataS>and that stratagy could involve many producers and few secondaries?
16:00<Zuu>Yep
16:01<Knogle>A GS can construct industries for free?, I thought you'd have to use CompanyMode, and the "selected" company would pay.
16:01<Zuu>As the GS have information about if an industry type is a raw industry or not.
16:01<Zuu>Knogle: If you don't use the company mode, you operate as DIETY.
16:02<andythenorth>DIETY is a thin god?
16:02<Knogle>DIETY?
16:02<Zuu>andythenorth: Yes
16:02<NataS>that's a technical term that exists in the game?
16:02<Knogle>so you could in fact, make a script that build a water tower in every town?
16:03<Zuu>Some API functions state in the pre-condition that you must have a company mode active for them to work. So for example the API to construct a HQ can't be used in DIETY mode, only when executing commands under the name of a company.
16:03*NataS just uses manual industries
16:03<NataS>well it makes sense that a non company could not produce an HQ
16:03<Zuu>Knogle: As long as you figure out which industry is the water tower and there is no NewGRF imposed restrictions for the water tower.
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16:05<Knogle>GSIndustryType::BuildIndustry -> Precondition: Valid GSCompanyMode active in scope.
16:05<Zuu>Then, you cannot do that as diety.
16:05<Knogle>so you can't build industries
16:05<Zuu>Which I wonder why there is such a restriction.
16:06<Knogle>because someone has to pay for it :P
16:06<Zuu>Maybe someone though that its the domain of NewGRFs to decide on where to spawn random industries.
16:06<Eddi|zuHause>that sounds stupid
16:07<Knogle>it is stupid indeed
16:07<Zuu>But if you get a dev to agree, I think that restriction would make sense to remove.
16:07<andythenorth>the respective domains of newgrf and GS is completely unagreed (unfinished discussion)
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16:07<Zuu>You might want to build some specific industry for your scenario at some given year etc.
16:08<Knogle>I don't care for newgrfs at all, I'd like to be able to control everything with GS :P
16:08<andythenorth>you can't
16:08<Knogle>I know.
16:08<andythenorth>the newgrf spec pre-exists
16:08<andythenorth>for right or wrong
16:08<Knogle>one can dream though
16:08<Zuu>Knogle: It makes no sense to control the amount of smoke from steam trains via GS
16:08<Knogle>Zuu: Ah well, anything map related.
16:08<andythenorth>I did propose removing most of newgrf except graphics
16:09<Knogle>Like I'd love to be able to stop someone from building in a certain town for example.
16:09<Knogle>newgrf should be graphics only, makes more sense to me.
16:10<Zuu>There has to be border when resposibility to provide vehicles, game objects etc. gives NewGRFs control over their things. Although from the GS perspective it would be nice if one is allowed to play god and override the NewGRF rules. :-p
16:10<andythenorth>I got shouted down about my proposal to remove newgrf stuff :P
16:11<Knogle>aw, I support you andy, that gotta count for something :P
16:11<Knogle>hehe
16:11<Zuu>Knogle: Shouldn't NewGRFs also provide some specifications on how the objects they provide work. Eg. the max speed, tractive effort etc. of an engine?
16:11<Zuu>Eg. its more than just graphics.
16:12<Knogle>Zuu: anything related to said graphics, yes, of course.
16:12<andythenorth>depends whether you want GS to be able to adjust that stuff
16:15<Knogle>nah, not if its custom made graphics
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16:42<andythenorth>how long has the default steel mill been broken?
16:43<andythenorth>it can can build on slopes
16:43<andythenorth>I'd raise a FS, but my eyes won't stay open :|
16:43*andythenorth has been needing sleep for weeks :P
16:43<frosch123>i think you can autoslope below them
16:44<frosch123>but it is unlikely to build on a slope
16:44<andythenorth>I had one in a game just now
16:44<andythenorth>broken graphics
16:44<andythenorth>no newgrfs in that game
16:44<andythenorth>also the ground tile for coal mines was incorrect I think
16:45<andythenorth>I have r24319
16:45<frosch123>well, as said, after it is constructed, anyone can terraform below it
16:46<andythenorth>this was a fresh game
16:46<andythenorth>coal mine was correct, that was just my eyes
16:48<andythenorth>can't replicate the steel mill
16:48<Knogle>more company colors should be added, yellow and orange looks the same, and dark blue looks like rivers :/
16:50<frosch123>lol, you mean adding more colours makes it less likely that some look similar? :p
16:50<andythenorth>we need to invent new colours
16:50<andythenorth>add infra-red
16:51<frosch123>you should implement some more types of cones into your eye instead
16:51<andythenorth>it would make you warm
16:51<andythenorth>add uv
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16:52<NataS>some colors could be smart colors
16:52<NataS>or something
16:53<NataS>like I think Simutrans which has day and night, has a specific pallet reserved for lights
16:53<NataS>all this means is they don't become darker at night,
16:57<frosch123>games with day and night are an excellent example why adding too much realism results in total crap
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17:16<frosch123>night
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17:57<Eddi|zuHause>i always disable day/night cycle in simcity
17:58<NGC3982>http://pics.kuvaton.com/kuvei/how_to_prank_your_friends.jpg
17:58<CornishPasty>NGC3982: lol
17:59<Eddi|zuHause>that is really not funny
17:59<CornishPasty>Eddi|zuHause: why? :(
17:59<NataS>well, here's a question
17:59<NataS>how do you model comuters without a day night cycle?
18:00<CornishPasty>NataS: a city that never sleeps, obviously
18:00<Eddi|zuHause>you don't
18:00<NataS>abstract day/night, which each day lasting a month or a year of game time might be intresting
18:01<Eddi|zuHause>commuter cycles would either be too fast to notice, or too long to fit in with the date
18:01<Eddi|zuHause>and, it has nothing to do with visually making things dark
18:01<NataS>there are days which determine the cycle of passinger traffic, and years which determine technological progress and intrest rates
18:01<NataS>I'm not talking about that though
18:01<NataS>I'm talking about commuters
18:02<NataS>would passingers existing on a different time scale than the rest of the game work.
18:02<Eddi|zuHause>you were talking about special palette colours
18:02<NataS>yeah but the topic creeped.
18:02<NataS>it happens.
18:02<NataS>I was talking about that about 2 hours ago
18:03<Eddi|zuHause>that was just 5 lines ago
18:03<NataS>more than that if you count join/parts
18:04<NataS>anyways, the present is more important than the past
18:04<Eddi|zuHause>sure, that is easily implemented
18:04-!-Zeknurn [~Zeknurn@hd9483b0c.seveveb.dyn.perspektivbredband.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
18:04<Eddi|zuHause>but the game lacks the management functions
18:04<Eddi|zuHause>so gameplay suffers
18:05<Eddi|zuHause>e.g. "go to depot, and wait there 4 hours with reduced running costs"
18:05<NataS>you would need to tie passingers to houses and jobs
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18:05<NataS>for commuters to even make sense
18:05<Eddi|zuHause>that's just a minor adjustment to cargodist
18:06<Eddi|zuHause>besides, it quickly goes up in noise in the statistics, so it doesn't really matter
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18:15*NataS shrugs
18:16<NataS>in general, tieing passingers to homes and workplaces would be more important than making a defined rush hour
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18:34<Wolf01>'night all
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19:13<Snake956>Hey, I need help!
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19:15<Hazzard>lol
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19:39<FLHerne>That was pointless 8-)
19:39<FLHerne>'night
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---Logclosed Sat Jun 02 00:00:00 2012